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  • If that Irish border concession is true, as reported, then I would very reluctantly now support No Deal. I would spend the next 12 months preparing in every possible way for it.

    The UK cannot accept a cleaving up of its territory.

    As I pointed out before, if the Irish border concession is true, it only takes effect as a result of no deal. I'm afraid the no dealers have been snookered.
    How on earth do you deduce that?
  • In 1990, the episode 'The High Ground' of Star Trek: The Next Generation said Ireland united in 2024.

    Just saying.

    PS - That episode was banned by the BBC.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Will be very interesting to see details here.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    If that Irish border concession is true, as reported, then I would very reluctantly now support No Deal. I would spend the next 12 months preparing in every possible way for it.

    The UK cannot accept a cleaving up of its territory.

    As I pointed out before, if the Irish border concession is true, it only takes effect as a result of no deal. I'm afraid the no dealers have been snookered.
    How on earth do you deduce that?
    The wording is apparently "in the absence of agreed solutions". So either there's a negotiated deal that avoids a hard border, or the guarantee to maintain regulatory alignment come what may kicks in.
  • Scott_P said:

    @BethRigby: BREAK; Senior govt source tells me it still “too close to call” re Ireland border but draft wording in and govt “quietly confident it will be resolved” by close of play. Told #DUP on board

    If they are, then the media are being massive drama queens, as usual, and we have a huge dollop of Fudge coming.
  • Yoon Ultras ecstatic, the little rays of sunshine that they are.

    https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/937650248549326848

    I wonder what he means by 'strongly resisted'?
  • HYUFD said:

    Ally_B said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    Welcome to the EEA HYUFD. Oh, that doesn't prevent free movement? Sorry Sir, this is the best we can offer you. As this WILL be the best we can get when will someone press the rewind button?
    The 2 key reasons Leave voters voted Leave was to regain sovereignty and to end free movement, a FTA respects both.
    Give over. Repeating something incessantly like a meerkat on speed doesn't make it correct. This applies equally to other bores.
  • tim80tim80 Posts: 99
    Oops. More nonsense from TSE. Looks like his twitter excitement a little premature
  • If that Irish border concession is true, as reported, then I would very reluctantly now support No Deal. I would spend the next 12 months preparing in every possible way for it.

    The UK cannot accept a cleaving up of its territory.

    As I pointed out before, if the Irish border concession is true, it only takes effect as a result of no deal. I'm afraid the no dealers have been snookered.
    How on earth do you deduce that?
    The wording is apparently "in the absence of agreed solutions". So either there's a negotiated deal that avoids a hard border, or the guarantee to maintain regulatory alignment come what may kicks in.
    Nope. If Parliament voted it down, it wouldn't become law, so any such wording would expire.
  • Jonathan said:

    Will be very interesting to see details here.

    Nope, far more fun inventing them to fit ones own prejudices.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    Although "Continued regulatory alignment" appears to be significant, and has a big impact on the mood music, it's almost meaningless in terms of the relationship. The important outcome of the Article 50 talks, beyond the fact of the Britain leaving the EU, is the transition deal which guarantees regulatory alignment across the UK. No-one serious believes the UK and EU will agree a potentially divergent FTA within two years, so alignment will continue for longer than that, or it might be made permanent with an EEA or full EU membership arrangement, or the whole thing is moot in the case of a breakdown. After 5 years or more, no-one will bother what was stiched up in an interim deal years before.
  • Can someone do me a favour, can anyone do a quick summary of which parties hold the border seats in Northern Ireland?

    Sinn Fein holds all of the Westminster seats.
    Cheers, I had a hunch that was the case.

    So Northern Ireland voted to Remain, and SF hold the border seats, might we consider the DUP are out of touch?
    They are in touch with the working class Unionist vote.

    SF are in touch with the Republican vote, and, independent of that, a chunk of middle-class Unionists will also have voted Remain to give it its majority in NI.
  • Yoon Ultras ecstatic, the little rays of sunshine that they are.

    https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/937650248549326848

    I wonder what he means by 'strongly resisted'?

    Save Ulster from Sodomy the single market
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Has May walked yet?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,760

    If that Irish border concession is true, as reported, then I would very reluctantly now support No Deal. I would spend the next 12 months preparing in every possible way for it.

    The UK cannot accept a cleaving up of its territory.

    As I pointed out before, if the Irish border concession is true, it only takes effect as a result of no deal. I'm afraid the no dealers have been snookered.
    How on earth do you deduce that?
    The wording is apparently "in the absence of agreed solutions". So either there's a negotiated deal that avoids a hard border, or the guarantee to maintain regulatory alignment come what may kicks in.
    Surely, if no deal is agreed, then everything that was agreed at Phase 1 falls?
  • tim80 said:

    Oops. More nonsense from TSE. Looks like his twitter excitement a little premature

    This is a betting site, the betting has moved on the chances of a 2018 general election.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542

    FF43 said:

    I'm probably being thick here but how is "continued regulatory alignment" any different from "no regulatory divergence"?

    [Different from other responses here]. I think "continued regulatory alignment" requires positive action. So if the EU changes its law or regulation, the UK would commit to changing its law and regulation in lockstep. "No regulatory divergence" would only be a commitment not to change its law and regulation
    I think it's just to correct bad drafting rather than a change in intended meaning. The current status quo would fail the "no regulatory divergence" test.
    Up to a point. The crunch comes when the EU makes a decision, without reference to the UK because we are no longer members, that the UK doesn't agree with. The EU tells the UK, you committed to continued regulatory alignment. You need to change your laws. The EU doesn't want the UK to say, WE are not diverging.
  • tim80tim80 Posts: 99
    felix said:

    Nearly all the voices desperately criticising the deal are from those who want Brexit reversed. They are seeking to drive the government and the DUP apart.

    Indeed. It is many of the same voices that day things like ‘Leave voters will be outraged at the Brexit bill” or “Leave supporters won’t accept the concession on sovereignty” etc

    It’s ironic that a bunch of people who demonstrated such a poor understanding of millions of their compatriots prior to the referendum now think they have insight into their thinking!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841

    Can someone do me a favour, can anyone do a quick summary of which parties hold the border seats in Northern Ireland?

    Sinn Fein holds all of the Westminster seats.
    Cheers, I had a hunch that was the case.

    So Northern Ireland voted to Remain, and SF hold the border seats, might we consider the DUP are out of touch?
    In touch with County Antrim, less so with West Tyrone.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    tim80 said:

    Oops. More nonsense from TSE. Looks like his twitter excitement a little premature

    This is a betting site, the betting has moved on the chances of a 2018 general election.
    Betting markets are notoriously volatile, excitable and irrational, hence the rather silly and hysterical announcement of a Corbyn premiership this morning. There will be no general election in 2018 or 2019 either.
  • TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Another political spasm putting Corbyn in Downing Street which in retrospect will look just a little bit silly.
  • Overall this is a pretty pragmatic position/deal by the EU27/Ireland and the UK.

    Bodes well for the rest of the wider deal.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Sean_F said:

    If that Irish border concession is true, as reported, then I would very reluctantly now support No Deal. I would spend the next 12 months preparing in every possible way for it.

    The UK cannot accept a cleaving up of its territory.

    As I pointed out before, if the Irish border concession is true, it only takes effect as a result of no deal. I'm afraid the no dealers have been snookered.
    How on earth do you deduce that?
    The wording is apparently "in the absence of agreed solutions". So either there's a negotiated deal that avoids a hard border, or the guarantee to maintain regulatory alignment come what may kicks in.
    Surely, if no deal is agreed, then everything that was agreed at Phase 1 falls?
    If May signs a side-letter now, presumably it would be treated as an international treaty pending ratification?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    They'd be daft to say otherwise at this point to keep the pressure on.

    Almost like it's a negotiation played out both in the open and behind closed doors.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    All depends on how Arlene Foster feels about the deal.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    If they keep repeating that, their voters might take them at their word.
  • @stefanstern: Why did the chlorinated chicken cross the border?
  • TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    If the DUP and the Tories have agreed a position on this then undoubtedly it would be to allow the DUP to speak out, at least a bit...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    The Turkish position would seem to be the best of a bad lot - don't join the Customs Union but have a separate customs union with it, on current terms. That keeps alignment whilst allowing separate deals with other countries. I know that also keeps Fox in a job, but every proposal has its downside.
  • Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    All depends on how Arlene Foster feels about the deal.
    All depends on if she thinks she can sell it to her voters
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841

    @stefanstern: Why did the chlorinated chicken cross the border?

    To kick the can down the road ?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited December 2017
    @raphndwe: @rowena_kay @timoconnorbl @davidallengreen if one part of the UK can stay in the single market and still satisfy the mandate, then surely we all can?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit, not involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 24.0%
    Staying in the EU 28.2%

    http://survation.com/labour-extends-polling-lead-8-points-conservatives/

    While Soft Brexit is less popular than Hard Brexit or remaining in the EU, it is likely to get second choice support of those whose preferred option disappears. If remaining in the EU is no longer an option (which I would thought was evident), most continuing Remainers presumably would prefer a Soft Brexit to a Hard Brexit. Most Leavers would presumably prefer a Soft Brexit to none at all.

  • No more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet it's maker! A stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace!

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/937659796907491328
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    Indeed. Once you eliminate the sensible option, you have to pick from the nonsensical ones. I am not being flippant. This is the key problem with Brexit.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited December 2017
    Sounds like the Uk-Irish border post Brexit will be softer than the Spain/Gibraltar border pre-Brexit.

    Being in the EU ain't all that.
  • Theresa has stuffed the hard Leavers good and proper! Either we agree to an EU-approved Brexit or Eire is given de facto economic control of Northern Ireland. If the likes of Lawson and Rees-Mogg harrumph, then Theresa can legitimately brand them 'unpatriotic' and 'saboteurs'. That goes the same for Dacre and The Sun. I adore Theresa! Even Churchill couldn't muster this much bravery and stealth.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    edited December 2017
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit, not involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 24.0%
    Staying in the EU 28.2%

    http://survation.com/labour-extends-polling-lead-8-points-conservatives/

    While Soft Brexit is less popular than Hard Brexit or remaining in the EU, it is likely to get second choice support of those whose preferred option disappears. If remaining in the EU is no longer an option (which I would thought was evident), most continuing Remainers presumably would prefer a Soft Brexit to a Hard Brexit. Most Leavers would presumably prefer a Soft Brexit to none at all.

    On those figures, Soft Brexit would get eliminated first, leaving those voters with a difficult choice. Whereas if Remaining comes last, Soft Brexit clearly wins. A nice primer in how the order in which the lower placed candidates poll is absolutely critical under AV.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    ROFL

    are you an idiot ?

    they've been saying that about just about anything for the last 50 years

    really if this is your insight to NI politics, you'd best leave it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,760

    Sean_F said:

    If that Irish border concession is true, as reported, then I would very reluctantly now support No Deal. I would spend the next 12 months preparing in every possible way for it.

    The UK cannot accept a cleaving up of its territory.

    As I pointed out before, if the Irish border concession is true, it only takes effect as a result of no deal. I'm afraid the no dealers have been snookered.
    How on earth do you deduce that?
    The wording is apparently "in the absence of agreed solutions". So either there's a negotiated deal that avoids a hard border, or the guarantee to maintain regulatory alignment come what may kicks in.
    Surely, if no deal is agreed, then everything that was agreed at Phase 1 falls?
    If May signs a side-letter now, presumably it would be treated as an international treaty pending ratification?
    I thought it was accepted by all parties that nothing is agreed until everything has been agreed.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @steverichards14: The gap between early Brexit swagger of ministers and the inevitable concessions on cash, Irish border and sequence of talks is darkly comic and tragic.. with much more to come.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    It is simply a matter of the birth rate, and time.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2017
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit, not involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 24.0%
    Staying in the EU 28.2%

    http://survation.com/labour-extends-polling-lead-8-points-conservatives/

    While Soft Brexit is less popular than Hard Brexit or remaining in the EU, it is likely to get second choice support of those whose preferred option disappears. If remaining in the EU is no longer an option (which I would thought was evident), most continuing Remainers presumably would prefer a Soft Brexit to a Hard Brexit. Most Leavers would presumably prefer a Soft Brexit to none at all.

    No, what most voters want is a Canada style FTA that ends free movement, not a Norway style soft Brexit which leaves free movement in place or a hard Brexit that goes straight to WTO terms.

    50% think a Canada style FTA would be good for the UK, 35% think a Norway style single market would be good for the UK, 32% think hard Brexit would be good for the UK.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/
  • TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    ROFL

    are you an idiot ?

    they've been saying that about just about anything for the last 50 years

    really if this is your insight to NI politics, you'd best leave it.
    I'm listening to Lord Trimble, a giant among pygmies.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    ROFL

    are you an idiot ?

    they've been saying that about just about anything for the last 50 years

    really if this is your insight to NI politics, you'd best leave it.
    I'm listening to Lord Trimble, a giant among pygmies.
    A short man amongst pygmies would be more accurate.
  • So will the DUP go all Anglo-Irish agreement and resign their seats and trigger by elections?
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    So the DUP are so upset that the EU deal is a small step towards a united Ireland that in their fury they will put Corbyn in Downing Street-that same Corbyn who is an ally of Sinn Fein and wants a giant leap towards a United Ireland?

    Those who in the next four years will hysterically announce that Corbyn is about to become PM will sound more and more like medieval religious phrophets announcing the imminence of the Second Coming.
  • IanB2 said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    ROFL

    are you an idiot ?

    they've been saying that about just about anything for the last 50 years

    really if this is your insight to NI politics, you'd best leave it.
    I'm listening to Lord Trimble, a giant among pygmies.
    A short man amongst pygmies would be more accurate.
    Made compromises to bring peace to Northern Ireland, eventually NI said thanks for all your hard work but piss off.

    A bit like Nick Clegg
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    IanB2 said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    It is simply a matter of the birth rate, and time.
    And a Corbyn premiership isnt an even bigger step towards a United Ireland?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,760

    So will the DUP go all Anglo-Irish agreement and resign their seats and trigger by elections?

    No. If they are unhappy with the proposal, it would make far more sense to cause trouble in close Parliamentary votes.
  • stevef said:

    So the DUP are so upset that the EU deal is a small step towards a united Ireland that in their fury they will put Corbyn in Downing Street-that same Corbyn who is an ally of Sinn Fein and wants a giant leap towards a United Ireland?

    Those who in the next four years will hysterically announce that Corbyn is about to become PM will sound more and more like medieval religious phrophets announcing the imminence of the Second Coming.

    The DUP went into coalition with Sinn Fein and made the IRA's former deputy commander in Derry Deputy First Minister.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    @steverichards14: The gap between early Brexit swagger of ministers and the inevitable concessions on cash, Irish border and sequence of talks is darkly comic and tragic.. with much more to come.

    Deeply tragic that "settling of scores" seems to be very important for remainers over the substance of any deal.

    Lets hope at some stage in their lives they can come to terms with leaving the EU.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    stevef said:

    So the DUP are so upset that the EU deal is a small step towards a united Ireland that in their fury they will put Corbyn in Downing Street-that same Corbyn who is an ally of Sinn Fein and wants a giant leap towards a United Ireland?

    Those who in the next four years will hysterically announce that Corbyn is about to become PM will sound more and more like medieval religious phrophets announcing the imminence of the Second Coming.

    Both Corbyn and Brexit will turn out to be "not exactly" what those who voted for them were wanting. Such is the way of revolutions. Nevertheless it is always the failure of the incumbent that is ultimately to blame.
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337
    edited December 2017
    IanB2 said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    It is simply a matter of the birth rate, and time.
    It's also a matter of politics and economics is the ROI. Have a think about what that number of SF voters would do to Irish politics given that it remains a sine qua non that SF should not be allowed into government. Have a look at Irish government finances. There is a genuine difference between what the Irish government says it wants and what it wants.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Sean_F said:

    So will the DUP go all Anglo-Irish agreement and resign their seats and trigger by elections?

    No. If they are unhappy with the proposal, it would make far more sense to cause trouble in close Parliamentary votes.
    So unhappy with a small step towards a United Ireland that they will ally themselves with Sinn Fein ally Corbyn and supporter of a United Ireland. Really?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit, not involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 24.0%
    Staying in the EU 28.2%

    http://survation.com/labour-extends-polling-lead-8-points-conservatives/

    While Soft Brexit is less popular than Hard Brexit or remaining in the EU, it is likely to get second choice support of those whose preferred option disappears. If remaining in the EU is no longer an option (which I would thought was evident), most continuing Remainers presumably would prefer a Soft Brexit to a Hard Brexit. Most Leavers would presumably prefer a Soft Brexit to none at all.

    No, what most voters want is a Canada style FTA that ends free movement, not a Norway style soft Brexit which leaves free movement in place or a hard Brexit that goes straight to WTO terms.

    50% thing a Canada style FTA would be good for the UK, 35% thing a Norway style single market would be good for the UK, 32% think hard Brexit would be good for the UK.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/
    You didn't read the figures I posted. MOST voters do NOT want a Canada style FTA. A large minority does.

    PS the figures you posted are from just after the referendum and are over a year old. The figures I posted are from this week.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    stevef said:

    IanB2 said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    It is simply a matter of the birth rate, and time.
    And a Corbyn premiership isnt an even bigger step towards a United Ireland?
    It won't happen without consent from the people of NI. Which requires a bit more time, Corbyn or no.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit, not involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 24.0%
    Staying in the EU 28.2%

    http://survation.com/labour-extends-polling-lead-8-points-conservatives/

    While Soft Brexit is less popular than Hard Brexit or remaining in the EU, it is likely to get second choice support of those whose preferred option disappears. If remaining in the EU is no longer an option (which I would thought was evident), most continuing Remainers presumably would prefer a Soft Brexit to a Hard Brexit. Most Leavers would presumably prefer a Soft Brexit to none at all.

    No, what most voters want is a Canada style FTA that ends free movement, not a Norway style soft Brexit which leaves free movement in place or a hard Brexit that goes straight to WTO terms.

    50% thing a Canada style FTA would be good for the UK, 35% thing a Norway style single market would be good for the UK, 32% think hard Brexit would be good for the UK.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/
    You didn't read the figures I posted. MOST voters do NOT want a Canada style FTA. A large minority does.
    Your figures did not even mention a Canada style FTA. Mine did and a majority supported it, a majority opposed single market membership and free movement or hard Brexit and WTO terms.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    IanB2 said:

    stevef said:

    So the DUP are so upset that the EU deal is a small step towards a united Ireland that in their fury they will put Corbyn in Downing Street-that same Corbyn who is an ally of Sinn Fein and wants a giant leap towards a United Ireland?

    Those who in the next four years will hysterically announce that Corbyn is about to become PM will sound more and more like medieval religious phrophets announcing the imminence of the Second Coming.

    Both Corbyn and Brexit will turn out to be "not exactly" what those who voted for them were wanting. Such is the way of revolutions. Nevertheless it is always the failure of the incumbent that is ultimately to blame.
    Corbyn will fail to become PM at all. But in the highly unlikely event of him becoming PM, he would fail so spectacularly to satisfy his supporters expectations, in the end they will revile him as much as they revile Blair. Thus are demagogues hoist in the end by their own petards.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    stevef said:

    IanB2 said:

    stevef said:

    So the DUP are so upset that the EU deal is a small step towards a united Ireland that in their fury they will put Corbyn in Downing Street-that same Corbyn who is an ally of Sinn Fein and wants a giant leap towards a United Ireland?

    Those who in the next four years will hysterically announce that Corbyn is about to become PM will sound more and more like medieval religious phrophets announcing the imminence of the Second Coming.

    Both Corbyn and Brexit will turn out to be "not exactly" what those who voted for them were wanting. Such is the way of revolutions. Nevertheless it is always the failure of the incumbent that is ultimately to blame.
    Corbyn will fail to become PM at all. But in the highly unlikely event of him becoming PM, he would fail so spectacularly to satisfy his supporters expectations, in the end they will revile him as much as they revile Blair. Thus are demagogues hoist in the end by their own petards.
    True, because most 'revolutions' fail (at least in the short term), even democratic ones. Nevertheless they only happen in the first place because the incumbent proves unable to match up to the challenge of changing times.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263

    Scott_P said:

    @BethRigby: BREAK; Senior govt source tells me it still “too close to call” re Ireland border but draft wording in and govt “quietly confident it will be resolved” by close of play. Told #DUP on board

    If they are, then the media are being massive drama queens, as usual, and we have a huge dollop of Fudge coming.
    Yes, it looks like classic EU fudge - ambiguous wording, to be interpreted at leisure in calmer times.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    IanB2 said:

    stevef said:

    IanB2 said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    It is simply a matter of the birth rate, and time.
    And a Corbyn premiership isnt an even bigger step towards a United Ireland?
    It won't happen without consent from the people of NI. Which requires a bit more time, Corbyn or no.
    So the DUP have nothing to fear from this agreement then, and wont bring down the government as a result. Corbyn will get his final chance to be PM in 2022-and will fail.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122

    Overall this is a pretty pragmatic position/deal by the EU27/Ireland and the UK.

    Bodes well for the rest of the wider deal.

    +1
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    IanB2 said:

    stevef said:

    IanB2 said:

    stevef said:

    So the DUP are so upset that the EU deal is a small step towards a united Ireland that in their fury they will put Corbyn in Downing Street-that same Corbyn who is an ally of Sinn Fein and wants a giant leap towards a United Ireland?

    Those who in the next four years will hysterically announce that Corbyn is about to become PM will sound more and more like medieval religious phrophets announcing the imminence of the Second Coming.

    Both Corbyn and Brexit will turn out to be "not exactly" what those who voted for them were wanting. Such is the way of revolutions. Nevertheless it is always the failure of the incumbent that is ultimately to blame.
    Corbyn will fail to become PM at all. But in the highly unlikely event of him becoming PM, he would fail so spectacularly to satisfy his supporters expectations, in the end they will revile him as much as they revile Blair. Thus are demagogues hoist in the end by their own petards.
    True, because most 'revolutions' fail (at least in the short term), even democratic ones. Nevertheless they only happen in the first place because the incumbent proves unable to match up to the challenge of changing times.
    But Corbyn doesnt represent a revolution.
  • IFF also stands for Identification Friend of Foe - a computer system designed to stop aircraft from firing on friendly troops. Has terrible consequences when it goes wrong with mayhem and death spread to your own side and position opened up for the enemy to exploit.

    This has no symbolism for TSE himself at all, of course.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit, not involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 24.0%
    Staying in the EU 28.2%

    http://survation.com/labour-extends-polling-lead-8-points-conservatives/

    While Soft Brexit is less popular than Hard Brexit or remaining in the EU, it is likely to get second choice support of those whose preferred option disappears. If remaining in the EU is no longer an option (which I would thought was evident), most continuing Remainers presumably would prefer a Soft Brexit to a Hard Brexit. Most Leavers would presumably prefer a Soft Brexit to none at all.

    No, what most voters want is a Canada style FTA that ends free movement, not a Norway style soft Brexit which leaves free movement in place or a hard Brexit that goes straight to WTO terms.

    50% thing a Canada style FTA would be good for the UK, 35% thing a Norway style single market would be good for the UK, 32% think hard Brexit would be good for the UK.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/
    You didn't read the figures I posted. MOST voters do NOT want a Canada style FTA. A large minority does.
    Your figures did not even mention a Canada style FTA. Mine did and a majority supported it, a majority opposed single market membership and free movement or hard Brexit and WTO terms.
    A Canada style FTA is included within 'A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union' which is supported by just over a third of the population. That minority would also include No Deal. A bit over half support remaining in the EU Single Market and Customs Union, or would go for full membership. What you keep posting isn't supported by the numbers.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    stevef said:

    IanB2 said:

    stevef said:

    IanB2 said:

    stevef said:

    So the DUP are so upset that the EU deal is a small step towards a united Ireland that in their fury they will put Corbyn in Downing Street-that same Corbyn who is an ally of Sinn Fein and wants a giant leap towards a United Ireland?

    Those who in the next four years will hysterically announce that Corbyn is about to become PM will sound more and more like medieval religious phrophets announcing the imminence of the Second Coming.

    Both Corbyn and Brexit will turn out to be "not exactly" what those who voted for them were wanting. Such is the way of revolutions. Nevertheless it is always the failure of the incumbent that is ultimately to blame.
    Corbyn will fail to become PM at all. But in the highly unlikely event of him becoming PM, he would fail so spectacularly to satisfy his supporters expectations, in the end they will revile him as much as they revile Blair. Thus are demagogues hoist in the end by their own petards.
    True, because most 'revolutions' fail (at least in the short term), even democratic ones. Nevertheless they only happen in the first place because the incumbent proves unable to match up to the challenge of changing times.
    But Corbyn doesnt represent a revolution.
    ..."discuss", as the essay question goes.
  • I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out girfuy.

    https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/937670964816556033
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    I don't think Faisal Islam's interpretation is correct. Not least because, I understand, the EU side is pushing for the "continued regulatory alignment" wording. As I say below, I believe the wording emphasises the need for active alignment from the UK rather than passive avoidance of divergence.
  • No chlorinated chicken, EU citizenship if they want it, UK subsidies ... the Northern Irish are going to do very well out of Brexit!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    stevef said:

    IanB2 said:

    stevef said:

    IanB2 said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically regulatory alignment in the short term to cover any transition to a trade deal.

    Doesn't seem a biggie.

    Some of the DUP and TUV aren't happy and saying it is a stepping stone to a united Ireland.
    It is simply a matter of the birth rate, and time.
    And a Corbyn premiership isnt an even bigger step towards a United Ireland?
    It won't happen without consent from the people of NI. Which requires a bit more time, Corbyn or no.
    So the DUP have nothing to fear from this agreement then, and wont bring down the government as a result. Corbyn will get his final chance to be PM in 2022-and will fail.
    What makes you think there is no difference between a logical analysis of the situation, and what the DUP might choose to fear or oppose?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    edited December 2017
    IanB2 said:

    The Turkish position would seem to be the best of a bad lot - don't join the Customs Union but have a separate customs union with it, on current terms.

    I assume the DUP would be unhappy with this, as the Turkey-EU border looks like this.
  • I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out girfuy.

    https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/937670964816556033

    I'd been undecided till now, but if Nigel Farage is crying betrayal, this has to be a reasonable deal.
  • Coveney says Ireland has got reassurance 'there isn't going to be re-emergence of border'

    This is what Simon Coveney, the Irish deputy prime minister, told RTE a few minutes ago.

    We hope to be in place in just over an hour’s time that the Taoiseach will be able to make a positive statement to the country.

    Certainly the indications we have is that we are in a much better place than we have been in Brexit negotiations to date.

    We have now a language that gives us the safeguards we need; that there is reassurance for people there is not going to be a re-emergence of a border.

    Irish concerns are going to be addressed fully.

    He also said he hoped the wording of the final agreement would be agreed “in the next hour”.

    Asked about the opposition from the Democratic Unionist party, Coveney refused to be drawn. He said:

    The relationship between the British government and the DUP is a matter for the British government and the DUP we have a responsibility to listen to the DUP and we have listened to the DUP but we have listened to others too.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/dec/04/theresa-may-heads-to-brussels-hoping-to-conclude-phase-one-of-brexit-talks-politics-live?CMP=twt_gu
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    someone else tweeting without knowing the detail

    Nicola McTrump
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2017
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit,
    No, what most voters want is a Canada style FTA that ends free movement, not a Norway style soft Brexit which leaves free movement in place or a hard Brexit that goes straight to WTO terms.

    50% thing a Canada style FTA would be good for the UK, 35% thing a Norway style single market would be good for the UK, 32% think hard Brexit would be good for the UK.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/
    You didn't read the figures I posted. MOST voters do NOT want a Canada style FTA. A large minority does.
    Your figures did not even mention a Canada style FTA. Mine did and a majority supported it, a majority opposed single market membership and free movement or hard Brexit and WTO terms.
    A Canada style FTA is included within 'A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union' which is supported by just over a third of the population. That minority would also include No Deal. A bit over half support remaining in the EU Single Market and Customs Union, or would go for full membership. What you keep posting isn't supported by the numbers.
    No it is not. The only option you have in your poll was hard Brexit ie not even specifically allowing for a FTA. My poll gave a FTA that ended free movement as an option and that was by far the most popular option.

    What you have posted is not supported by the numbers from Yougov I gave which is that barely more than a third support remaining in the single market and keeping free movement, little more than support WTO terms hard Brexit, when the option of a FTA that ends free movement is given, that option got 50% support.
  • No chlorinated chicken, EU citizenship if they want it, UK subsidies ... the Northern Irish are going to do very well out of Brexit!

    I think I'm going to become an Ulsterman.

    I think I'd fit right in.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542

    Overall this is a pretty pragmatic position/deal by the EU27/Ireland and the UK.

    Bodes well for the rest of the wider deal.

    The UK government needs to sell agreement as sensible harmonisation rather than abject concession. The two aren't necessarily distinct. If you have only one good choice, is it really surrender if you choose it?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    IanB2 said:

    The Turkish position would seem to be the best of a bad lot - don't join the Customs Union but have a separate customs union with it, on current terms.

    I assume the DUP would be unhappy with this, as the Turkey-EU border looks like this.
    Thankfully Eire doesn't have a land border with Syria and Iraq.
  • AndyJS said:
    I wouldn't trust that - for example, the site shows a bunch of locations for Tokyo and I know for a fact that a couple of them haven't had ATMs for a while.

    I had similar problems with a site showing shops that allegedly accept bitcoin; They make it really easy to add a place, but pretty much impossible to remove it...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit,
    No, what most voters want is a Canada style FTA that ends free movement, not a Norway style soft Brexit which leaves free movement in place or a hard Brexit that goes straight to WTO terms.

    50% thing a Canada style FTA would be good for the UK, 35% thing a Norway style single market would be good for the UK, 32% think hard Brexit would be good for the UK.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/
    You didn't read the figures I posted. MOST voters do NOT want a Canada style FTA. A large minority does.
    Your figures did not even mention a Canada style FTA. Mine did and a majority supported it, a majority opposed single market membership and free movement or hard Brexit and WTO terms.
    A Canada style FTA is included within 'A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union' which is supported by just over a third of the population. That minority would also include No Deal. A bit over half support remaining in the EU Single Market and Customs Union, or would go for full membership. What you keep posting isn't supported by the numbers.
    No it is not. The only option you have in your poll was hard Brexit ie not even specifically allowing for a FTA. My poll gave a FTA that ended free movement as an option and that was by far the most popular option.

    What you have posted is not supported by the numbers from Yougov I gave which is that barely more than a third support remaining in the single market and keeping free movement, little more than support WTO terms hard Brexit, when the option of a FTA that ends free movement is given, that option got 50% support.
    You are incorrect when you say the first option in the Survation poll doesn't include a Canada style FTA. The Yougov poll was from just after the referendum and is out of date. The Survation poll is from this week.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:
    I wouldn't trust that - for example, the site shows a bunch of locations for Tokyo and I know for a fact that a couple of them haven't had ATMs for a while.

    I had similar problems with a site showing shops that allegedly accept bitcoin; They make it really easy to add a place, but pretty much impossible to remove it...
    Thanks for the warning.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    If there's no regulatory divergence with the EU then we haven't left.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit,
    No, what most voters want is a Canada style FTA that ends free movement, not a Norway style soft Brexit which leaves free movement in place or a hard Brexit that goes straight to WTO terms.

    50% thing a Canada style FTA would be good for the UK, 35% thing a Norway style single market would be good for the UK, 32% think hard Brexit would be good for the UK.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/
    You didn't read the figures I posted. MOST voters do NOT want a Canada style FTA. A large minority does.
    Your figures did not even mention a Canada style FTA. Mine did and a majority supported it, a majority opposed single market membership and free movement or hard Brexit and WTO terms.
    A Canada style FTA is included within 'A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union' which is supported by just over a third of the population. That minority would also include No Deal. A bit over half support remaining in the EU Single Market and Customs Union, or would go for full membership. What you keep posting isn't supported by the numbers.
    No it is not. The only option you have in your poll was hard Brexit ie not even specifically allowing for a FTA. My poll gave a FTA that ended free movement as an option and that was by far the most popular option.

    What you have posted is not supported by the numbers from Yougov I gave which is that barely more than a third support remaining in the single market and keeping free movement, little more than support WTO terms hard Brexit, when the option of a FTA that ends free movement is given, that option got 50% support.
    Arguing about polling data about hypothetical outcomes is missing the point. What will matter is whether people will like it when they see it. Somehow I think Mr HY is in for a rude awakening.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955

    Overall this is a pretty pragmatic position/deal by the EU27/Ireland and the UK.

    Bodes well for the rest of the wider deal.

    The Irish border was always going to require some constructive - if not downright weird and whacky - thinking to arrive at a settlement. I still expect it will require elements of a "temporary" nature - that everybody understands nobody will ever quite get round to finalising.....
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    What an idiot. Somebody should tell her that Scotland is part of Great Britain, which happens to be an island.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955

    someone else tweeting without knowing the detail

    Nicola McTrump
    I read that as Nicola McTurnip.....
  • Sandpit said:

    If there's no regulatory divergence with the EU then we haven't left.

    Well, the British would be relieved of the burden of attending the meetings where the regulations are made...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    A FTA which ends free movement is what most voters want, minus diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit,
    No, what most voters want is a Canada style FTA that ends free movement, not a Norway style soft Brexit which leaves free movement in place or a hard Brexit that goes straight to WTO terms.

    50% thing a Canada style FTA would be good for the UK, 35% thing a Norway style single market would be good for the UK, 32% think hard Brexit would be good for the UK.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/
    You didn't read the figures I posted. MOST voters do NOT want a Canada style FTA. A large minority does.
    Your figures did not even mention a Canada style FTA. Mine did and a majority supported it, a majority opposed single market membership and free movement or hard Brexit and WTO terms.
    A Canada style FTA is included within 'A ''hard'' Brexit, ou keep posting isn't supported by the numbers.
    No it is not. The only option you have in your poll was hard Brexit ie not even specifically allowing for a FTA. My poll gave a FTA that ended free movement as an option and that was by far the most popular option.

    What you have posted is not supported by the numbers from Yougov I gave which is that barely more than a third support remaining in the single market and keeping free movement, little more than support WTO terms hard Brexit, when the option of a FTA that ends free movement is given, that option got 50% support.
    Arguing about polling data about hypothetical outcomes is missing the point. What will matter is whether people will like it when they see it. Somehow I think Mr HY is in for a rude awakening.
    They will certainly like a FTA that ends free movement better than staying in the single market and leaving free movement in place or going to WTO terms.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Forster to speak in about 5 minutes time.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Being part of the EU Customs Union without being part of the EU sounds like a nonsense to me.

    There is likely to be a new bilateral customs union between the UK and the EU - without freedom of movement a la Canada and the EU.
    rs.
    No, unless you accept diehard Remainers and diehard Leavers are the majority:

    Which of the following do you prefer?
    A ''hard'' Brexit, involving leaving the EU single market and customs union 38.4%
    A ''soft'' Brexit,
    No, what most voters want is a Canada style FTA that ends free movement, not a Norway style soft Brexit which leaves free movement in place or a hard Brexit that goes straight to WTO terms.

    50% thing a Canada style FTA would be good for the UK, 35% thing a Norway style single market would be good for the UK, 32% think hard Brexit would be good for the UK.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-/
    You didn't read the figures I posted. MOST voters do NOT want a Canada style FTA. A large minority does.
    Your figures did not even mention a Canada style FTA. Mine did and a majority supported it, a majority opposed single market membership and free movement or hard Brexit and WTO terms.
    A Canada style FTA is included within 'A ''hard'' Brexit, ou keep posting isn't supported by the numbers.
    No it is not. The only option you have in your poll was hard Brexit ie not even specifically allowing for a FTA. My poll gave a FTA that ended free movement as an option and that was by far the most popular option.

    What you have posted is not supported by the numbers from Yougov I gave which is that barely more than a third support remaining in the single market and keeping free movement, little more than support WTO terms hard Brexit, when the option of a FTA that ends free movement is given, that option got 50% support.
    Arguing about polling data about hypothetical outcomes is missing the point. What will matter is whether people will like it when they see it. Somehow I think Mr HY is in for a rude awakening.
    They will certainly like a FTA that ends free movement better than staying in the single market and leaving free movement in place or going to WTO terms.
    I will go out on a limb and say that, wherever we end up starting from where we are now, people won't like it. Which is bad news for the Tories, whatever.
This discussion has been closed.