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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:
    Yet, Moore will win, not because he's popular, but because Alabama is massively Red.
    A recent WP poll at the end of last week gave Jones a 3% lead, the Alabama race is certainly not over yet.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/alabama-race-is-neck-and-neck-with-voters-divided-over-roy-moore-allegations-poll-finds/2017/12/01/32e659ec-d6bd-11e7-b62d-d9345ced896d_story.html
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    GIN1138 said:

    The Times reporting that Tory Brexiteers will launch a no confidence vote in Mrs May this side of Christmas if she attempts to go too far on Northern Ireland.

    She's got to go.... Whatever you think about Brexit, today was a complete and total ******* shambles...
    If she goes so does Brexit
    What Theresa was proposing for N. Ireland (and subsequently Scotland, London, etc.) Would mean there wouldn't be a Brexit anyway.

    It was compete and total madness!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:


    Bravo Richard, everyone needs time off from worrying about the B-word. I've found my impending marriage (29th December!) has, unaccountably, distracted me from all the hoop-la. Perhaps others can find some (possibly less life-changing) remedy of their own. Shall we have the equivalent of the Christmas truce in WW1 for the evening?

    Congrats Mr M!
    Attractive idea!

    Is anyone else exploring the pleasures of Amazon Prime? I've been enjoying The Man in the High Castle, The Beginning of Everything (Zelda Fitzgerald), Casual, and a couple more - really good value compared with actually trekking out to a cinema and paying £20.
    I am working my way through the Walking Dead at the rate of 2 episodes a night. Not sure if this is a good use of my time.
    Edit: but I worry I may have to boycott Amazon in general if I read much more about their treatment of employees.
    I am trying to keep Amazon to a minimum this year. They are convenient, but a cancer on our retail economy.
    Are you an Amazon Prime Member and have the fire stick

    All my family and facebook friends use Amazon. No amount of virtue will change the way Amazon will dominate and to the consumers benefit
    Not Amazon Prime for me.

    I do have a lot on my Kindle though. It is great for travelling, and I am a voracious reader when I get the
    Canute tried and failed. Just bought LG 4Ultra TV and Amazon Prime, Netflicks and many other sites are included as default and with Sky recently upgrading me to their Q box (according to them 18 years makes me a VIP) free and with no increases in subs I can now get premier league in ultra 4 together witl other Sky offers and of couse Amazon Prime.

    The old principle applies - you can resist change and fail - reluctantly accept change and also fail - or embrace change and move forward
    Or you can shape change, by encouraging smaller startups, and breaking up internet monopolies. Unregulated capitalism tends to monopoly, and Amazon are well down that road.

    Internet globalisation is no bad thing, it is giving oppressed peoples across the Middle East and Africa access to freedoms and opportunities they have never had.

    The bottom line is that there is something better than Virtual Reality called Actual Reality.
  • GIN1138 said:

    The Times reporting that Tory Brexiteers will launch a no confidence vote in Mrs May this side of Christmas if she attempts to go too far on Northern Ireland.

    She's got to go.... Whatever you think about Brexit, today was a complete and total ******* shambles...
    If she goes so does Brexit
    Bonus!
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42221737

    They're shameless. Even with the head of the Met saying that they're investigating the release of confidential information as a crime, the BBC is continuing to parrot the very information which they were an accessory in the potentially illegal release of. They can't mention the case without naming him, and talking about 1000s of pictures.

    I hope, but obviously can't imagine will happen, that the result of the investigation by the Met is that these two bent ccertainly fabricated the information, and nothing was actually found on the computer. That is the only result that would be fair to the DPM. If the bent cops won't shut up, they should be locked up.

    If there was no porn and it was all fabricated, then what confidential information has been released "as a crime"?
    He admitted in his interview to not destroying the copies that he was ordered to by the Met. That's what he's being investigated for. If the investigations discover that he also fabricated that evidence, then there was nothing there except bent cops.
    I hope he loses his pension over this, I really do. We cannot have police behaving like this.
    Along with a temporary loss of liberty - I would hope too.
    It might be possible to get the Met, and the bent cops, to agree to the falsified evidence line if they're allowed to disappear.
    What evidence has been falsified.

    Desperate attempt to save Green by shifting the blame will not work
    I believe it was a hypothetical Either they released information they were ordered to destroy, or they falsified the information.
    Oh I see.

    So either Greens computer had thousands of Porn images on it or it did


    FairyNuff
    Can you please explain your support for the potentially illegal release of illegally obtained and illegally retained data that was probably faked by bent cops and then released by the state broadcaster?
    I don't want you to be a pervert @bigjohnowls but you are acting like one here. If we let the bent cops get away with then we're asking to be abused by them. Which is perverted.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    GIN1138 said:

    The Times reporting that Tory Brexiteers will launch a no confidence vote in Mrs May this side of Christmas if she attempts to go too far on Northern Ireland.

    She's got to go.... Whatever you think about Brexit, today was a complete and total ******* shambles...
    If she goes so does Brexit
    I don’t think that’s true. I don’t see how the parliamentary party can keep a Brexiteer from being in the final two, and that person winning.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718

    Rees-Mogg vs Corbyn would have certain parallels with the selection of French candidates that allowed Macron to storm to victory.

    It would be our Trump v Sanders too (in my view the likely 2020 US race).

    In France it is not impossible 2022 could be Le Pen v Melenchon if Macron becomes unpopular.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718
    RoyalBlue said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The Times reporting that Tory Brexiteers will launch a no confidence vote in Mrs May this side of Christmas if she attempts to go too far on Northern Ireland.

    She's got to go.... Whatever you think about Brexit, today was a complete and total ******* shambles...
    If she goes so does Brexit
    I don’t think that’s true. I don’t see how the parliamentary party can keep a Brexiteer from being in the final two, and that person winning.
    Plus Corbyn is not going to abandon Brexit either
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265


    The bottom line is that there is something better than Virtual Reality called Actual Reality.

    Or..."People say that life's the thing, but personally I prefer reading" - Stephen Spender.


  • The hollowing out of high streets by companies like Amazon, who then add insult to injury by paying hardly any tax, is part of the reason towns decline. Other aspects of the internet have similar effects. I rarely read newspapers now, or go into a bank. I am as bad as anyone, but I am not sure that it really is progress.

    Why do we need high streets?
    The internet giants destroying employment and community is the sharp end of globalisation. Small towns and high streets are hollowing out to be takeaways, betting and charity shops.

    Bigger "destination" shopping will probably survive longer.
    Some of the declining shopping streets should be converted to residential use.
  • RoyalBlue said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The Times reporting that Tory Brexiteers will launch a no confidence vote in Mrs May this side of Christmas if she attempts to go too far on Northern Ireland.

    She's got to go.... Whatever you think about Brexit, today was a complete and total ******* shambles...
    If she goes so does Brexit
    I don’t think that’s true. I don’t see how the parliamentary party can keep a Brexiteer from being in the final two, and that person winning.
    If TM walks out on the party and hands over the keys chaos will happen across the Country and with the large imbuilt remain MP's they will just see it dies. There is not a leave majority in the HOC or HOL
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    Rees-Mogg vs Corbyn would have certain parallels with the selection of French candidates that allowed Macron to storm to victory.

    It would be our Trump v Sanders too (in my view the likely 2020 US race).

    In France it is not impossible 2022 could be Le Pen v Melenchon if Macron becomes unpopular.
    Does it ever occur to you that over the course of an electoral cycle that new candidates and issues may emerge rather than re-treads?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718

    RoyalBlue said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The Times reporting that Tory Brexiteers will launch a no confidence vote in Mrs May this side of Christmas if she attempts to go too far on Northern Ireland.

    She's got to go.... Whatever you think about Brexit, today was a complete and total ******* shambles...
    If she goes so does Brexit
    I don’t think that’s true. I don’t see how the parliamentary party can keep a Brexiteer from being in the final two, and that person winning.
    If TM walks out on the party and hands over the keys chaos will happen across the Country and with the large imbuilt remain MP's they will just see it dies. There is not a leave majority in the HOC or HOL
    There is given most of the Tories will still vote for it and significant numbers of Labour MPs too, especially those from strong Leave seats.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The Times reporting that Tory Brexiteers will launch a no confidence vote in Mrs May this side of Christmas if she attempts to go too far on Northern Ireland.

    She's got to go.... Whatever you think about Brexit, today was a complete and total ******* shambles...
    If she goes so does Brexit
    I don’t think that’s true. I don’t see how the parliamentary party can keep a Brexiteer from being in the final two, and that person winning.
    If TM walks out on the party and hands over the keys chaos will happen across the Country and with the large imbuilt remain MP's they will just see it dies. There is not a leave majority in the HOC or HOL
    Then the Tory party dies. I don’t think most of its MPs want that.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    As I read on Twitter thus afternoon we're up shit creek without a canoe let alone a bloody paddle. Did we ever have such a complete bunch on fifth rate incompetents leading this country? They even make Chamberlain's government at the height of the Norway fiasco look statesmanlike.

    I presume you voted for them, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to complain that they don't have enough of a parliamentary mandate to deliver what the voters decided.

    In any case, what exactly do you think they should do differently in the negotiations? Pay twice as much, maybe? Tell the Irish Republic to go and get stuffed and put up a hard border if they want to (admittedly that must be VERY tempting)? Tell the Northern Irish to get stuffed? Tell the EU they can stick their brain-dead 'sequencing' where the sun don't shine?

    I'm all ears. If you were negotiating - and from your remarks it's clear that you are a world-class expert - what would you do differently?
    Vote Tory, am I mad? I voted LD as I have done ever since the Tory party were collectively mad enough to elect IDS. They're no saner now.
    Fair enough. Now I'd be interested in your response to my second and third paragraph.
    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited December 2017

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42221737

    They're shameless. Even with the head of the Met saying that they're investigating the release of confidential information as a crime, the BBC is continuing to parrot the very information which they were an accessory in the potentially illegal release of. They can't mention the case without naming him, and talking about 1000s of pictures.

    I hope, but obviously can't imagine will happen, that the result of the investigation by the Met is that these two bent ccertainly fabricated the information, and nothing was actually found on the computer. That is the only result that would be fair to the DPM. If the bent cops won't shut up, they should be locked up.

    If there was no porn and it was all fabricated, then what confidential information has been released "as a crime"?
    He admitted in his interview to not destroying the copies that he was ordered to by the Met. That's what he's being investigated for. If the investigations discover that he also fabricated that evidence, then there was nothing there except bent cops.
    I hope he loses his pension over this, I really do. We cannot have police behaving like this.
    Along with a temporary loss of liberty - I would hope too.
    It might be possible to get the Met, and the bent cops, to agree to the falsified evidence line if they're allowed to disappear.
    What evidence has been falsified.

    Desperate attempt to save Green by shifting the blame will not work
    I believe it was a hypothetical Either they released information they were ordered to destroy, or they falsified the information.
    Oh I see.

    So either Greens computer had thousands of Porn images on it or it did


    FairyNuff
    Can you please explain your support for the potentially illegal release of illegally obtained and illegally retained data that was probably faked by bent cops and then released by the state broadcaster?
    I don't want you to be a pervert @bigjohnowls but you are acting like one here. If we let the bent cops get away with then we're asking to be abused by them. Which is perverted.
    It is always sad when shear party blindness over rules due process and the law of justice.

    BJO seems the only one on here to follow his line, most everyone wants fairness in our law and not bigotry
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Plus Corbyn is not going to abandon Brexit either

    There isn't an option of abandoning Brexit. It happens by default at 11pm GMT on the 29th March 2019, and there's no reliable mechanism for changing that which doesn't give one of dozens of unpredictable players a veto - the EU parliament, the Irish, some minor EU country which everyone has forgotten about, some hard-right Central European government, etc etc .

    What everyone should realise is that negotiations to reverse Brexit would be just as fraught and subject to last-minute blackmail as negotiations to implement it.


  • The hollowing out of high streets by companies like Amazon, who then add insult to injury by paying hardly any tax, is part of the reason towns decline. Other aspects of the internet have similar effects. I rarely read newspapers now, or go into a bank. I am as bad as anyone, but I am not sure that it really is progress.

    Why do we need high streets?
    The internet giants destroying employment and community is the sharp end of globalisation. Small towns and high streets are hollowing out to be takeaways, betting and charity shops.

    Bigger "destination" shopping will probably survive longer.
    So we need crap retail jobs and a community built on the offchance of bumping into someone you haven't met for six months in whsmith (as opposed to in takeaways or charity shops)?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    RoyalBlue said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The Times reporting that Tory Brexiteers will launch a no confidence vote in Mrs May this side of Christmas if she attempts to go too far on Northern Ireland.

    She's got to go.... Whatever you think about Brexit, today was a complete and total ******* shambles...
    If she goes so does Brexit
    I don’t think that’s true. I don’t see how the parliamentary party can keep a Brexiteer from being in the final two, and that person winning.
    May can carry on until someone being a Brexiteer or not doesn’t matter - ie 2021.

    We will be out and only the saddos won’t have moved on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718



    The hollowing out of high streets by companies like Amazon, who then add insult to injury by paying hardly any tax, is part of the reason towns decline. Other aspects of the internet have similar effects. I rarely read newspapers now, or go into a bank. I am as bad as anyone, but I am not sure that it really is progress.

    Why do we need high streets?
    I go to the butcher in the high street, buy a paper there and eat a sandwich in Greggs, eat in the restaurants and pubs or order a takeaway, have recently used a high street estate agent, use the dentist and doctors in the high street and the Church.

    Epping also has a market there every Monday and at Christmas as well as its Remembrance Day Parade. For market towns the high street is the focus of the town.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Plus Corbyn is not going to abandon Brexit either

    There isn't an option of abandoning Brexit. It happens by default at 11pm GMT on the 29th March 2019, and there's no reliable mechanism for changing that which doesn't give one of dozens of unpredictable players a veto - the EU parliament, the Irish, some minor EU country which everyone has forgotten about, some hard-right Central European government, etc etc .

    What everyone should realise is that negotiations to reverse Brexit would be just as fraught and subject to last-minute blackmail as negotiations to implement it.
    What did you think to today's events Richard?

    For Theresa not to even consult her partners before heading off for lunch with Juncker was unforgivable surely?
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    On topic.

    Bad Santa.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    RoyalBlue said:

    GIN1138 said:

    The Times reporting that Tory Brexiteers will launch a no confidence vote in Mrs May this side of Christmas if she attempts to go too far on Northern Ireland.

    She's got to go.... Whatever you think about Brexit, today was a complete and total ******* shambles...
    If she goes so does Brexit
    I don’t think that’s true. I don’t see how the parliamentary party can keep a Brexiteer from being in the final two, and that person winning.
    If TM walks out on the party and hands over the keys chaos will happen across the Country and with the large imbuilt remain MP's they will just see it dies. There is not a leave majority in the HOC or HOL
    No one in any job is indispensable..
  • Chris_A said:

    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.

    Simple, eh? 'Say we're staying' - err, you do realise that it's not our choice to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union? It would require negotiating a completely new agreement with the EU - and they have already made clear that there's no better deal available which gives full access to the Single Market.

    Fortunately we have Theresa May and DD negotiating, not you. They do at least understand the very most basic point.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Rees-Mogg vs Corbyn would have certain parallels with the selection of French candidates that allowed Macron to storm to victory.

    It would be our Trump v Sanders too (in my view the likely 2020 US race).

    In France it is not impossible 2022 could be Le Pen v Melenchon if Macron becomes unpopular.
    Does it ever occur to you that over the course of an electoral cycle that new candidates and issues may emerge rather than re-treads?
    In France they normally are retreads, Macron was an exception on that front, in the US Trump is the incumbent and challengers to the President often lost the nomination in the/a previous presidential election, eg Romney, Dole, Reagan, McGovern, Goldwater etc or stood in the last presidential election eg Dewey and Stevenson or Mondale (as VP).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    As I read on Twitter thus afternoon we're up shit creek without a canoe let alone a bloody paddle. Did we ever have such a complete bunch on fifth rate incompetents leading this country? They even make Chamberlain's government at the height of the Norway fiasco look statesmanlike.

    I presume you voted for them, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to complain that they don't have enough of a parliamentary mandate to deliver what the voters decided.

    In any case, what exactly do you think they should do differently in the negotiations? Pay twice as much, maybe? Tell the Irish Republic to go and get stuffed and put up a hard border if they want to (admittedly that must be VERY tempting)? Tell the Northern Irish to get stuffed? Tell the EU they can stick their brain-dead 'sequencing' where the sun don't shine?

    I'm all ears. If you were negotiating - and from your remarks it's clear that you are a world-class expert - what would you do differently?
    Vote Tory, am I mad? I voted LD as I have done ever since the Tory party were collectively mad enough to elect IDS. They're no saner now.
    Fair enough. Now I'd be interested in your response to my second and third paragraph.
    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.
    Why do people find this glaringly obvious solution to be beyond their comprehension?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Plus Corbyn is not going to abandon Brexit either

    There isn't an option of abandoning Brexit. It happens by default at 11pm GMT on the 29th March 2019, and there's no reliable mechanism for changing that which doesn't give one of dozens of unpredictable players a veto - the EU parliament, the Irish, some minor EU country which everyone has forgotten about, some hard-right Central European government, etc etc .

    What everyone should realise is that negotiations to reverse Brexit would be just as fraught and subject to last-minute blackmail as negotiations to implement it.
    What did you think to today's events Richard?

    For Theresa not to even consult her partners before heading off for lunch with Juncker was unforgivable surely?
    Par for the course i'd say.
  • GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Plus Corbyn is not going to abandon Brexit either

    There isn't an option of abandoning Brexit. It happens by default at 11pm GMT on the 29th March 2019, and there's no reliable mechanism for changing that which doesn't give one of dozens of unpredictable players a veto - the EU parliament, the Irish, some minor EU country which everyone has forgotten about, some hard-right Central European government, etc etc .

    What everyone should realise is that negotiations to reverse Brexit would be just as fraught and subject to last-minute blackmail as negotiations to implement it.
    What did you think to today's events Richard?

    For Theresa not to even consult her partners before heading off for lunch with Juncker was unforgivable surely?
    You do not know the detail. The EU statement was leaked by them this morning before agreement. I heard Sky detailing the document before May had even arrived.

    I will see how this pans out but she was the one who stopped the process not the EU

    Some think the Irish and EU were too clever by half this morning and it appears tonight they are the once disappointed
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    TOPPING said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    As I read on Twitter thus afternoon we're up shit creek without a canoe let alone a bloody paddle. Did we ever have such a complete bunch on fifth rate incompetents leading this country? They even make Chamberlain's government at the height of the Norway fiasco look statesmanlike.

    I presume you voted for them, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to complain that they don't have enough of a parliamentary mandate to deliver what the voters decided.

    In any case, what exactly do you think they should do differently in the negotiations? Pay twice as much, maybe? Tell the Irish Republic to go and get stuffed and put up a hard border if they want to (admittedly that must be VERY tempting)? Tell the Northern Irish to get stuffed? Tell the EU they can stick their brain-dead 'sequencing' where the sun don't shine?

    I'm all ears. If you were negotiating - and from your remarks it's clear that you are a world-class expert - what would you do differently?
    Vote Tory, am I mad? I voted LD as I have done ever since the Tory party were collectively mad enough to elect IDS. They're no saner now.
    Fair enough. Now I'd be interested in your response to my second and third paragraph.
    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.
    Why do people find this glaringly obvious solution to be beyond their comprehension?
    Because that's leaving in name only? We'd still have FoM, still be under ECJ jurisdiction.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718

    HYUFD said:

    Plus Corbyn is not going to abandon Brexit either

    There isn't an option of abandoning Brexit. It happens by default at 11pm GMT on the 29th March 2019, and there's no reliable mechanism for changing that which doesn't give one of dozens of unpredictable players a veto - the EU parliament, the Irish, some minor EU country which everyone has forgotten about, some hard-right Central European government, etc etc .

    What everyone should realise is that negotiations to reverse Brexit would be just as fraught and subject to last-minute blackmail as negotiations to implement it.
    I agree
  • TOPPING said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    As I read on Twitter thus afternoon we're up shit creek without a canoe let alone a bloody paddle. Did we ever have such a complete bunch on fifth rate incompetents leading this country? They even make Chamberlain's government at the height of the Norway fiasco look statesmanlike.

    I presume you voted for them, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to complain that they don't have enough of a parliamentary mandate to deliver what the voters decided.

    In any case, what exactly do you think they should do differently in the negotiations? Pay twice as much, maybe? Tell the Irish Republic to go and get stuffed and put up a hard border if they want to (admittedly that must be VERY tempting)? Tell the Northern Irish to get stuffed? Tell the EU they can stick their brain-dead 'sequencing' where the sun don't shine?

    I'm all ears. If you were negotiating - and from your remarks it's clear that you are a world-class expert - what would you do differently?
    Vote Tory, am I mad? I voted LD as I have done ever since the Tory party were collectively mad enough to elect IDS. They're no saner now.
    Fair enough. Now I'd be interested in your response to my second and third paragraph.
    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.
    Why do people find this glaringly obvious solution to be beyond their comprehension?
    Single Market comes with free movement.

    Stopping free movement was a central part to Vote Leave's campaign.

    Keeping free movement would be an insult to democracy.
  • GIN1138 said:

    What did you think to today's events Richard?

    For Theresa not to even consult her partners before heading off for lunch with Juncker was unforgivable surely?

    I don't think that is an accurate portrayal of what happened. There was a multi-way negotiation with amended texts being sent round to the UK government, Commission, EU Council, various governments, the Irish government, and the DUP. In the end they didn't quite get it together, but it looks to me as though it was the Irish government who were being unreasonable.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    Good on Corbyn for saying that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    As I read on Twitter thus afternoon we're up shit creek without a canoe let alone a bloody paddle. Did we ever have such a complete bunch on fifth rate incompetents leading this country? They even make Chamberlain's government at the height of the Norway fiasco look statesmanlike.

    I presume you voted for them, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to complain that they don't have enough of a parliamentary mandate to deliver what the voters decided.

    In any case, what exactly do you think they should do differently in the negotiations? Pay twice as much, maybe? Tell the Irish Republic to go and get stuffed and put up a hard border if they want to (admittedly that must be VERY tempting)? Tell the Northern Irish to get stuffed? Tell the EU they can stick their brain-dead 'sequencing' where the sun don't shine?

    I'm all ears. If you were negotiating - and from your remarks it's clear that you are a world-class expert - what would you do differently?
    Vote Tory, am I mad? I voted LD as I have done ever since the Tory party were collectively mad enough to elect IDS. They're no saner now.
    Fair enough. Now I'd be interested in your response to my second and third paragraph.
    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.
    Why do people find this glaringly obvious solution to be beyond their comprehension?
    Because that's leaving in name only? We'd still have FoM, still be under ECJ jurisdiction.
    Is Norway in the EU?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited December 2017

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Plus Corbyn is not going to abandon Brexit either

    There isn't an option of abandoning Brexit. It happens by default at 11pm GMT on the 29th March 2019, and there's no reliable mechanism for changing that which doesn't give one of dozens of unpredictable players a veto - the EU parliament, the Irish, some minor EU country which everyone has forgotten about, some hard-right Central European government, etc etc .

    What everyone should realise is that negotiations to reverse Brexit would be just as fraught and subject to last-minute blackmail as negotiations to implement it.
    What did you think to today's events Richard?

    For Theresa not to even consult her partners before heading off for lunch with Juncker was unforgivable surely?
    You do not know the detail. The EU statement was leaked by them this morning before agreement. I heard Sky detailing the document before May had even arrived.

    I will see how this pans out but she was the one who stopped the process not the EU

    Some think the Irish and EU were too clever by half this morning and it appears tonight they are the once disappointed
    May stopped the process but only after Arlene made her dramatic intervention mid-way through May and Junckers second course?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    FF43 said:

    This government is easily the most dysfunctional of my lifetime.

    No, the Brown government (pre-Mandelson) was the most dysfunctional one of the last 50 years, simply because Gordon Brown insisted on all decisions going via No 10. That would have been OK if he hadn't been pathologically indecisive, so everything ground to a halt.

    This government is actually working reasonably well in the normal day-to-day business of governing, amazingly. Of course it's a shambles in many ways, but minority governments are. What can they do? If they haven't got the numbers in parliament, they haven't got the numbers.

    On Brexit, they are doing what can be done, given the constraints. They are saddled with an impossible task by the referendum result, and they are hobbled by an absurd general election result which denied them the decisive majority which was indispensable to negotiating.

    Of course it's a disastrous situation, but it's not all Theresa May's fault - the electorate chose this pair of disasters.
    May had a workable majority. And the opposition was seen as shambolic under a weak leader disregarded by many of his MPs. So she could perfectly well have negotiated Brexit. It would not have been easy by any means. But it could have been done if (a) she had done the hard work necessary; and (b) appointed people half-way competent to the key posts.

    One of the reasons it is now so much more difficult than it was is because she threw away that majority, has significantly strengthened the opposition, has made her government dependant on the DUP which has a position on Brexit at odds with how the province voted and has weakened her own personal position in her party by contrast to how she appeared before.

    This is not the electorate's fault. It is hers. Just because someone asks for a mandate does not entitle them to get it if they do not demonstrate why they need it nor why they are up to the job. May had no answer to the question why there should be another GE when she had an absolute majority nor did she demonstrate that she was up to the job even as she was asking us to give her even more power.

    The electorate's "fault" was to see through her pretensions. I do not like the fact that Corbyn has been strengthened but neither do I like being taken for granted by arrogant, aloof and incompetent Tories.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    As I read on Twitter thus afternoon we're up shit creek without a canoe let alone a bloody paddle. Did we ever have such a complete bunch on fifth rate incompetents leading this country? They even make Chamberlain's government at the height of the Norway fiasco look statesmanlike.

    I presume you voted for them, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to complain that they don't have enough of a parliamentary mandate to deliver what the voters decided.

    In any case, what exactly do you think they should do differently in the negotiations? Pay twice as much, maybe? Tell the Irish Republic to go and get stuffed and put up a hard border if they want to (admittedly that must be VERY tempting)? Tell the Northern Irish to get stuffed? Tell the EU they can stick their brain-dead 'sequencing' where the sun don't shine?

    I'm all ears. If you were negotiating - and from your remarks it's clear that you are a world-class expert - what would you do differently?
    Vote Tory, am I mad? I voted LD as I have done ever since the Tory party were collectively mad enough to elect IDS. They're no saner now.
    Fair enough. Now I'd be interested in your response to my second and third paragraph.
    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.
    Why do people find this glaringly obvious solution to be beyond their comprehension?
    Single Market comes with free movement.

    Stopping free movement was a central part to Vote Leave's campaign.

    Keeping free movement would be an insult to democracy.
    According to @HYUFD 132% of people who voted to leave did so to force the natives back out onto the fields of Lincolnshire.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    GIN1138 said:

    What did you think to today's events Richard?

    For Theresa not to even consult her partners before heading off for lunch with Juncker was unforgivable surely?

    I don't think that is an accurate portrayal of what happened. There was a multi-way negotiation with amended texts being sent round to the UK government, Commission, EU Council, various governments, the Irish government, and the DUP. In the end they didn't quite get it together, but it looks to me as though it was the Irish government who were being unreasonable.
    I think that's right.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547

    Chris_A said:

    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.

    Simple, eh? 'Say we're staying' - err, you do realise that it's not our choice to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union? It would require negotiating a completely new agreement with the EU - and they have already made clear that there's no better deal available which gives full access to the Single Market.

    Fortunately we have Theresa May and DD negotiating, not you. They do at least understand the very most basic point.
    Barnier, the Irish and others have talked about this. Yes, it would have to be negotiated, but as they have also pointed out, agreements that diverge less from the status quo are easier to achieve. Certainly easier than a Canada Plus-Minus. Incidentally the CETA agreement runs to 1500 pages. By contrast, the EEA agreement is just 40 pages long and it's all there already.

    In any case, why wouldn't the EU agree to us doing what they tell us? Vote Leave to be controlled.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited December 2017

    GIN1138 said:

    What did you think to today's events Richard?

    For Theresa not to even consult her partners before heading off for lunch with Juncker was unforgivable surely?

    I don't think that is an accurate portrayal of what happened. There was a multi-way negotiation with amended texts being sent round to the UK government, Commission, EU Council, various governments, the Irish government, and the DUP. In the end they didn't quite get it together, but it looks to me as though it was the Irish government who were being unreasonable.
    But then why did Arlene have to make her public intervention before Theresa and Juncker had even got to dessert?

    It seems obvious Arlene hadn't been told what May was about to sign up to?
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    As I read on Twitter thus afternoon we're up shit creek without a canoe let alone a bloody paddle. Did we ever have such a complete bunch on fifth rate incompetents leading this country? They even make Chamberlain's government at the height of the Norway fiasco look statesmanlike.

    I presume you voted for them, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to complain that they don't have enough of a parliamentary mandate to deliver what the voters decided.

    In any case, what exactly do you think they should do differently in the negotiations? Pay twice as much, maybe? Tell the Irish Republic to go and get stuffed and put up a hard border if they want to (admittedly that must be VERY tempting)? Tell the Northern Irish to get stuffed? Tell the EU they can stick their brain-dead 'sequencing' where the sun don't shine?

    I'm all ears. If you were negotiating - and from your remarks it's clear that you are a world-class expert - what would you do differently?
    Vote Tory, am I mad? I voted LD as I have done ever since the Tory party were collectively mad enough to elect IDS. They're no saner now.
    Fair enough. Now I'd be interested in your response to my second and third paragraph.
    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.
    Why do people find this glaringly obvious solution to be beyond their comprehension?
    Single Market comes with free movement.

    Stopping free movement was a central part to Vote Leave's campaign.

    Keeping free movement would be an insult to democracy.
    According to @HYUFD 132% of people who voted to leave did so to force the natives back out onto the fields of Lincolnshire.
    Dave's big mistake, he should have made Vote Leave issue a manifesto or White Paper on Brexit during the campaign.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I don't know why you are surprised. But good on Corbyn if he did this.

    The police abusing or exceeding their powers is - or should - not be a party political matter.
  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Plus Corbyn is not going to abandon Brexit either

    There isn't an option of abandoning Brexit. It happens by default at 11pm GMT on the 29th March 2019, and there's no reliable mechanism for changing that which doesn't give one of dozens of unpredictable players a veto - the EU parliament, the Irish, some minor EU country which everyone has forgotten about, some hard-right Central European government, etc etc .

    What everyone should realise is that negotiations to reverse Brexit would be just as fraught and subject to last-minute blackmail as negotiations to implement it.
    What did you think to today's events Richard?

    For Theresa not to even consult her partners before heading off for lunch with Juncker was unforgivable surely?
    You do not know the detail. The EU statement was leaked by them this morning before agreement. I heard Sky detailing the document before May had even arrived.

    I will see how this pans out but she was the one who stopped the process not the EU

    Some think the Irish and EU were too clever by half this morning and it appears tonight they are the once disappointed
    May stopped the process but only after Arlene made her dramatic intervention mid-way through May and Junckers second course?
    May phoned Arlene when she saw the detail leaked by the EU and the Irish during the meal

    They attempted a stitch up and it failed
  • Cyclefree said:

    May had a workable majority. And the opposition was seen as shambolic under a weak leader disregarded by many of his MPs. So she could perfectly well have negotiated Brexit. It would not have been easy by any means. But it could have been done if (a) she had done the hard work necessary; and (b) appointed people half-way competent to the key posts.

    One of the reasons it is now so much more difficult than it was is because she threw away that majority, has significantly strengthened the opposition, has made her government dependant on the DUP which has a position on Brexit at odds with how the province voted and has weakened her own personal position in her party by contrast to how she appeared before.

    This is not the electorate's fault. It is hers. Just because someone asks for a mandate does not entitle them to get it if they do not demonstrate why they need it nor why they are up to the job. May had no answer to the question why there should be another GE when she had an absolute majority nor did she demonstrate that she was up to the job even as she was asking us to give her even more power.

    The electorate's "fault" was to see through her pretensions. I do not like the fact that Corbyn has been strengthened but neither do I like being taken for granted by arrogant, aloof and incompetent Tories.

    It's her fault obviously for calling and then screwing up an election - but you can't absolve voters from their responsibility. It was plain as a pikestaff that she needed a good majority to carry out the negotiation. Voters chose to ignore that blindingly obvious point, and (as your post makes clear) partly for trivial reasons.

    Up to them, of course. It's a democracy. That's the point - the voters decide. We are now seeing the consequences of what they decided.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited December 2017
    Cyclefree said:



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I don't know why you are surprised. But good on Corbyn if he did this.

    The police abusing or exceeding their powers is - or should - not be a party political matter.
    There is only one person on here doing that and he is on his own, thankfully
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I hoped he would be consistent, but didn't see that story. Do you have a link? And do you support his condemnation of the bent cops? And what do you think of the BBC's complicity with the potentially illegal action of the bent cops?
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237

    Chris_A said:

    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.

    Simple, eh? 'Say we're staying' - err, you do realise that it's not our choice to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union? It would require negotiating a completely new agreement with the EU - and they have already made clear that there's no better deal available which gives full access to the Single Market.

    Fortunately we have Theresa May and DD negotiating, not you. They do at least understand the very most basic point.
    Of course there's no better deal available. The 17 million idiots have voted to make us all poorer and it's about time someone told them the truth. That being said the least bad option is staying in the single market and customs union and May and Tories are certainly not the person to be negotiating that. they lost their mandate in June they should have resigned then.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547

    TOPPING said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    As I read on Twitter thus afternoon we're up shit creek without a canoe let alone a bloody paddle. Did we ever have such a complete bunch on fifth rate incompetents leading this country? They even make Chamberlain's government at the height of the Norway fiasco look statesmanlike.

    I presume you voted for them, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to complain that they don't have enough of a parliamentary mandate to deliver what the voters decided.

    In any case, what exactly do you think they should do differently in the negotiations? Pay twice as much, maybe? Tell the Irish Republic to go and get stuffed and put up a hard border if they want to (admittedly that must be VERY tempting)? Tell the Northern Irish to get stuffed? Tell the EU they can stick their brain-dead 'sequencing' where the sun don't shine?

    I'm all ears. If you were negotiating - and from your remarks it's clear that you are a world-class expert - what would you do differently?
    Vote Tory, am I mad? I voted LD as I have done ever since the Tory party were collectively mad enough to elect IDS. They're no saner now.
    Fair enough. Now I'd be interested in your response to my second and third paragraph.
    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.
    Why do people find this glaringly obvious solution to be beyond their comprehension?
    Single Market comes with free movement.

    Stopping free movement was a central part to Vote Leave's campaign.

    Keeping free movement would be an insult to democracy.
    Nah. The vote was to leave the European Union. No more, no less than that. If we accept the democratic will, which means ploughing on with projects regardless of how demented they might be, that will extends to what was on the ballot paper and no more.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,718
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    As I read on Twitter thus afternoon we're up shit creek without a canoe let alone a bloody paddle. Did we ever have such a complete bunch on fifth rate incompetents leading this country? They even make Chamberlain's government at the height of the Norway fiasco look statesmanlike.

    I presume you voted for them, because if you didn't it's a bit rich to complain that they don't have enough of a parliamentary mandate to deliver what the voters decided.

    In any case, what exactly do you think they should do differently in the negotiations? Pay twice as much, maybe? Tell the Irish Republic to go and get stuffed and put up a hard border if they want to (admittedly that must be VERY tempting)? Tell the Northern Irish to get stuffed? Tell the EU they can stick their brain-dead 'sequencing' where the sun don't shine?

    I'm all ears. If you were negotiating - and from your remarks it's clear that you are a world-class expert - what would you do differently?
    Vote Tory, am I mad? I voted LD as I have done ever since the Tory party were collectively mad enough to elect IDS. They're no saner now.
    Fair enough. Now I'd be interested in your response to my second and third paragraph.
    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.
    Why do people find this glaringly obvious solution to be beyond their comprehension?
    Single Market comes with free movement.

    Stopping free movement was a central part to Vote Leave's campaign.

    Keeping free movement would be an insult to democracy.
    According to @HYUFD 132% of people who voted to leave did so to force the natives back out onto the fields of Lincolnshire.
    They voted Leave to stop downward pressure on their wages and on public services, exacerbated by Blair failing to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    FF43 said:

    This government is easily the most dysfunctional of my lifetime.

    No, the Brown government (pre-Mandelson) was the most dysfunctional one of the last 50 years, simply because Gordon Brown insisted on all decisions going via No 10. That would have been OK if he hadn't been pathologically indecisive, so everything ground to a halt.

    This government is actually working reasonably well in the normal day-to-day business of governing, amazingly. Of course it's a shambles in many ways, but minority governments are. What can they do? If they haven't got the numbers in parliament, they haven't got the numbers.

    On Brexit, they are doing what can be done, given the constraints. They are saddled with an impossible task by the referendum result, and they are hobbled by an absurd general election result which denied them the decisive majority which was indispensable to negotiating.

    Of course it's a disastrous situation, but it's not all Theresa May's fault - the electorate chose this pair of disasters.
    If you mean the Conservative Party elected Cameron to be it's leader, who the electorate put the Tories and the LibDems into a coalition which became the administration of government. Cameron selected a pack of Numpties, Osborne in the Treasury, May in the Home Office, Fox in Defense (replaced by Fallon), Lansley in Health (replaced by Hunt.). All ending up believing their own publicity.

    True he won a 13 seat majority in 2015, and as John Major said, who would have believed it.

    And then hubris and the referendum he was sure he was going to win, to stay as PM even if he lost, and to stay in the HoC until the next election. But the yellow stripe down his back was too strong.

    Followed by the "crowning" of May, who appointed her ministers as a sort of joke sink or swim basis, weakened her administration by calling an unnecessary GE, while her cabinet are now all trying not to be the next replacement PM as they can all see the Brexit disaster coming., and they don't want to take the blame.

    Yep, have to admit Brown's administration had it's problems, but really, compared to this one? But never mind, it will soon be the Christmas recess and all the MP's will be going back to their constituencies to enjoy the Christmas Parties with their workers, supporters and friends. I wonder which Party's MP's will be returning happy and joyful for the next session, and which will not?
  • Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.

    Simple, eh? 'Say we're staying' - err, you do realise that it's not our choice to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union? It would require negotiating a completely new agreement with the EU - and they have already made clear that there's no better deal available which gives full access to the Single Market.

    Fortunately we have Theresa May and DD negotiating, not you. They do at least understand the very most basic point.
    Of course there's no better deal available. The 17 million idiots have voted to make us all poorer and it's about time someone told them the truth. That being said the least bad option is staying in the single market and customs union and May and Tories are certainly not the person to be negotiating that. they lost their mandate in June they should have resigned then.
    You have lost your argument by labelling 17 million UK voters 'idiots'

    I immediately stopped reading your post at that point
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.

    Simple, eh? 'Say we're staying' - err, you do realise that it's not our choice to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union? It would require negotiating a completely new agreement with the EU - and they have already made clear that there's no better deal available which gives full access to the Single Market.

    Fortunately we have Theresa May and DD negotiating, not you. They do at least understand the very most basic point.
    Of course there's no better deal available. The 17 million idiots have voted to make us all poorer and it's about time someone told them the truth. That being said the least bad option is staying in the single market and customs union and May and Tories are certainly not the person to be negotiating that. they lost their mandate in June they should have resigned then.
    Nobody else has the numbers to govern.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    It's her fault obviously for calling and then screwing up an election - but you can't absolve voters from their responsibility. It was plain as a pikestaff that she needed a good majority to carry out the negotiation. Voters chose to ignore that blindingly obvious point, and (as your post makes clear) partly for trivial reasons.

    Up to them, of course. It's a democracy. That's the point - the voters decide. We are now seeing the consequences of what they decided.

    No, Richard. Not trivial reasons. She had a majority. She asked for a bigger one. Why? Answer came there none. She did not persuade voters of her own country. If she could not persuade them why did she think she would be able to persuade 27 other EU nations?

    She had already decided what kind of Brexit we were going to get. She did not ask us first. She had already triggered Article 50. She did not ask us first. She wasted time after on an unnecessary GE which has limited the already short time available to reach an accommodation with the EU. Why?

    The mess we're in is because of decisions she took long before the GE. She took the electorate for granted and has, rightly, been called out on this. This is not a trivial reason. Stopping those in power from arrogating too much power to themselves is a bloody good thing. It reminds them of who, ultimately, is boss.

    The voters voted - relatively narrowly - to leave the EU. And a government with a small but workable majority should have tried to implement that decision in a way which sought to get the maximum possible support for a way forward. It chose not to - and we are where we are.

    It is little wonder that so many of us are choosing Alternative Reality when we see what Real Life has brought us.
  • OchEye said:

    FF43 said:

    This government is easily the most dysfunctional of my lifetime.

    No, the Brown government (pre-Mandelson) was the most dysfunctional one of the last 50 years, simply because Gordon Brown insisted on all decisions going via No 10. That would have been OK if he hadn't been pathologically indecisive, so everything ground to a halt.

    This government is actually working reasonably well in the normal day-to-day business of governing, amazingly. Of course it's a shambles in many ways, but minority governments are. What can they do? If they haven't got the numbers in parliament, they haven't got the numbers.

    On Brexit, they are doing what can be done, given the constraints. They are saddled with an impossible task by the referendum result, and they are hobbled by an absurd general election result which denied them the decisive majority which was indispensable to negotiating.

    Of course it's a disastrous situation, but it's not all Theresa May's fault - the electorate chose this pair of disasters.
    If you mean the Conservative Party elected Cameron to be it's leader, who the electorate put the Tories and the LibDems into a coalition which became the administration of government. Cameron selected a pack of Numpties, Osborne in the Treasury, May in the Home Office, Fox in Defense (replaced by Fallon), Lansley in Health (replaced by Hunt.). All ending up believing their own publicity.

    True he won a 13 seat majority in 2015, and as John Major said, who would have believed it.

    And then hubris and the referendum he was sure he was going to win, to stay as PM even if he lost, and to stay in the HoC until the next election. But the yellow stripe down his back was too strong.

    Followed by the "crowning" of May, who appointed her ministers as a sort of joke sink or swim basis, weakened her administration by calling an unnecessary GE, while her cabinet are now all trying not to be the next replacement PM as they can all see the Brexit disaster coming., and they don't want to take the blame.

    Yep, have to admit Brown's administration had it's problems, but really, compared to this one? But never mind, it will soon be the Christmas recess and all the MP's will be going back to their constituencies to enjoy the Christmas Parties with their workers, supporters and friends. I wonder which Party's MP's will be returning happy and joyful for the next session, and which will not?
    Fox wasn't replaced at Defence by Fallon.

    Get your facts right if you're gonna rant.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited December 2017

    Cyclefree said:

    May had a workable majority. And the opposition was seen as shambolic under a weak leader disregarded by many of his MPs. So she could perfectly well have negotiated Brexit. It would not have been easy by any means. But it could have been done if (a) she had done the hard work necessary; and (b) appointed people half-way competent to the key posts.

    One of the reasons it is now so much more difficult than it was is because she threw away that majority, has significantly strengthened the opposition, has made her government dependant on the DUP which has a position on Brexit at odds with how the province voted and has weakened her own personal position in her party by contrast to how she appeared before.

    This is not the electorate's fault. It is hers. Just because someone asks for a mandate does not entitle them to get it if they do not demonstrate why they need it nor why they are up to the job. May had no answer to the question why there should be another GE when she had an absolute majority nor did she demonstrate that she was up to the job even as she was asking us to give her even more power.

    The electorate's "fault" was to see through her pretensions. I do not like the fact that Corbyn has been strengthened but neither do I like being taken for granted by arrogant, aloof and incompetent Tories.

    It's her fault obviously for calling and then screwing up an election - but you can't absolve voters from their responsibility. It was plain as a pikestaff that she needed a good majority to carry out the negotiation. Voters chose to ignore that blindingly obvious point, and (as your post makes clear) partly for trivial reasons.

    Up to them, of course. It's a democracy. That's the point - the voters decide. We are now seeing the consequences of what they decided.
    If you don't believe Brexit is logical or sensible the electorate did the right thing depriving May of her majority. Why would any right thinking Remainer want to give absolute power to someone who declared themselves in their actions to be a passionate leaver?

    If I had my wish It would be for all the brexiteers to be thrown into penury and prostitution for getting us into this mess while a new government begged the EU for our reinstatement.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Cyclefree said:



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I don't know why you are surprised. But good on Corbyn if he did this.

    The police abusing or exceeding their powers is - or should - not be a party political matter.
    There is only one person on here doing that and he is on his own, thankfully
    The people undermining Green are it seems other members of the cabinet, and their friends in the media. The Labour front bench are pretty quiet on the issue.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It's her fault obviously for calling and then screwing up an election - but you can't absolve voters from their responsibility. It was plain as a pikestaff that she needed a good majority to carry out the negotiation. Voters chose to ignore that blindingly obvious point, and (as your post makes clear) partly for trivial reasons.

    Up to them, of course. It's a democracy. That's the point - the voters decide. We are now seeing the consequences of what they decided.

    No, Richard. Not trivial reasons. She had a majority. She asked for a bigger one. Why? Answer came there none. She did not persuade voters of her own country. If she could not persuade them why did she think she would be able to persuade 27 other EU nations?

    She had already decided what kind of Brexit we were going to get. She did not ask us first. She had already triggered Article 50. She did not ask us first. She wasted time after on an unnecessary GE which has limited the already short time available to reach an accommodation with the EU. Why?

    The mess we're in is because of decisions she took long before the GE. She took the electorate for granted and has, rightly, been called out on this. This is not a trivial reason. Stopping those in power from arrogating too much power to themselves is a bloody good thing. It reminds them of who, ultimately, is boss.

    The voters voted - relatively narrowly - to leave the EU. And a government with a small but workable majority should have tried to implement that decision in a way which sought to get the maximum possible support for a way forward. It chose not to - and we are where we are.

    It is little wonder that so many of us are choosing Alternative Reality when we see what Real Life has brought us.
    Well said.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Cyclefree said:



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I don't know why you are surprised. But good on Corbyn if he did this.

    The police abusing or exceeding their powers is - or should - not be a party political matter.
    There is only one person on here doing that and he is on his own, thankfully
    The people undermining Green are it seems other members of the cabinet, and their friends in the media. The Labour front bench are pretty quiet on the issue.
    Don’t forget the police. :smiley:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587

    Chris_A said:

    Chris_A said:

    Simple. Say we're staying in the customs unit and single market and start negotiating for better terms than Norway gets.

    Simple, eh? 'Say we're staying' - err, you do realise that it's not our choice to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union? It would require negotiating a completely new agreement with the EU - and they have already made clear that there's no better deal available which gives full access to the Single Market.

    Fortunately we have Theresa May and DD negotiating, not you. They do at least understand the very most basic point.
    Of course there's no better deal available. The 17 million idiots have voted to make us all poorer and it's about time someone told them the truth. That being said the least bad option is staying in the single market and customs union and May and Tories are certainly not the person to be negotiating that. they lost their mandate in June they should have resigned then.
    You have lost your argument by labelling 17 million UK voters 'idiots'

    I immediately stopped reading your post at that point
    Taking the trouble to rely to a post you claim not to have read seems pretty silly, too...
  • RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42221737

    They're shameless. Even with the head of the Met saying that they're investigating the release of confidential information as a crime, the BBC is continuing to parrot the very information which they were an accessory in the potentially illegal release of. They can't mention the case without naming him, and talking about 1000s of pictures.

    I hope, but obviously can't imagine will happen, that the result of the investigation by the Met is that these two bent ccertainly fabricated the information, and nothing was actually found on the computer. That is the only result that would be fair to the DPM. If the bent cops won't shut up, they should be locked up.

    If there was no porn and it was all fabricated, then what confidential information has been released "as a crime"?
    He admitted in his interview to not destroying the copies that he was ordered to by the Met. That's what he's being investigated for. If the investigations discover that he also fabricated that evidence, then there was nothing there except bent cops.
    I hope he loses his pension over this, I really do. We cannot have police behaving like this.
    Along with a temporary loss of liberty - I would hope too.
    It might be possible to get the Met, and the bent cops, to agree to the falsified evidence line if they're allowed to disappear.
    What evidence has been falsified.

    Desperate attempt to save Green by shifting the blame will not work
    I believe it was a hypothetical Either they released information they were ordered to destroy, or they falsified the information.
    Oh I see.

    So either Greens computer had thousands of Porn images on it or it did


    FairyNuff
    Can you please explain your support for the potentially illegal release of illegally obtained and illegally retained data that was probably faked by bent cops and then released by the state broadcaster?
    I don't want you to be a pervert @bigjohnowls but you are acting like one here. If we let the bent cops get away with then we're asking to be abused by them. Which is perverted.
    I think you may have overestimated the efficacy of continually calling anyone who isn't a partisan for the Green cause a pervert.

    It's actually becoming tiresomely perverse.
  • Sean_F said:

    GIN1138 said:

    What did you think to today's events Richard?

    For Theresa not to even consult her partners before heading off for lunch with Juncker was unforgivable surely?

    I don't think that is an accurate portrayal of what happened. There was a multi-way negotiation with amended texts being sent round to the UK government, Commission, EU Council, various governments, the Irish government, and the DUP. In the end they didn't quite get it together, but it looks to me as though it was the Irish government who were being unreasonable.
    I think that's right.
    +1 - the Irish got ahead of them selves and wrecked it.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Voting now finally underway in the Commons.
  • RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I don't know why you are surprised. But good on Corbyn if he did this.

    The police abusing or exceeding their powers is - or should - not be a party political matter.
    There is only one person on here doing that and he is on his own, thankfully
    The people undermining Green are it seems other members of the cabinet, and their friends in the media. The Labour front bench are pretty quiet on the issue.
    Don’t forget the police. :smiley:
    Are there any serving members of the police doing this? I thought it was only 2 ex policemen.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I don't know why you are surprised. But good on Corbyn if he did this.

    The police abusing or exceeding their powers is - or should - not be a party political matter.
    There is only one person on here doing that and he is on his own, thankfully
    The people undermining Green are it seems other members of the cabinet, and their friends in the media. The Labour front bench are pretty quiet on the issue.
    Don’t forget the police. :smiley:
    Are there any serving members of the police doing this? I thought it was only 2 ex policemen.
    Ah right, it was the serving police that lied over the Mitchell case. Easy to get them confused.
  • Cyclefree said:



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I don't know why you are surprised. But good on Corbyn if he did this.

    The police abusing or exceeding their powers is - or should - not be a party political matter.
    There is only one person on here doing that and he is on his own, thankfully
    The people undermining Green are it seems other members of the cabinet, and their friends in the media. The Labour front bench are pretty quiet on the issue.
    You claimed the other day that Green was in the wrong (along with the police) - apologies if I missed your reply, but how do you know that?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Easy Govt win:

    256 - 313

    Lots of opposition gone home.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    edited December 2017
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I don't know why you are surprised. But good on Corbyn if he did this.

    The police abusing or exceeding their powers is - or should - not be a party political matter.
    There is only one person on here doing that and he is on his own, thankfully
    The people undermining Green are it seems other members of the cabinet, and their friends in the media. The Labour front bench are pretty quiet on the issue.
    Don’t forget the police. :smiley:
    Are there any serving members of the police doing this? I thought it was only 2 ex policemen.
    Ah right, it was the serving police that lied over the Mitchell case. Easy to get them confused.
    Tut, what have things come to when the possibility of a current cabinet minister masturbating over his work porn stash isn't distinct in the memory?

    Must say I'm enjoying seeing PB Tories decide that police are the enemy within though.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Cyclefree said:



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I don't know why you are surprised. But good on Corbyn if he did this.

    The police abusing or exceeding their powers is - or should - not be a party political matter.
    I'm afraid I was surprised because I'm used to partisan politicians who feel someone on the other side is being treated unfairly simply watching in silence, secretly pleased.

    I know you disapprove of Corbyn because of his past associations and perhaps other things. But he rarely compromises his principles, even when it would assist his cause, and that's not a negligible thing.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Next amendment:

    292-316

    So people hadn't gone home!

    And another amendment now being voted on.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236


    The bottom line is that there is something better than Virtual Reality called Actual Reality.

    Or..."People say that life's the thing, but personally I prefer reading" - Stephen Spender.
    +1
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited December 2017

    Cyclefree said:



    I would love it, and would respect him so much more, if The Jezza properly condemned those bent cops. He should if he's the man his cultists want him to be.

    He did - said the police had behaved disgracefully towards Green. I must admit I was surprised, but he is consistent to his own agenda, which includes a history of scepticism to police exceeding their powers.
    I don't know why you are surprised. But good on Corbyn if he did this.

    The police abusing or exceeding their powers is - or should - not be a party political matter.
    I'm afraid I was surprised because I'm used to partisan politicians who feel someone on the other side is being treated unfairly simply watching in silence, secretly pleased.

    I know you disapprove of Corbyn because of his past associations and perhaps other things. But he rarely compromises his principles, even when it would assist his cause, and that's not a negligible thing.
    I am prepared to give Corbyn credit when he does the right thing, as he has here.

    My very first bit of political campaigning was when I volunteered at the North Kensington Law Centre yonks ago - we worked on housing issues and crime - and some of us got involved in supporting the campaign to get the Birmingham Six released. The police were no angels then, to put it mildly. Abuse of power is something that concerns me greatly.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    MikeL said:

    Next amendment:

    292-316

    So people hadn't gone home!

    And another amendment now being voted on.

    Any idea when the next contentious amendment is up?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Next amendment (3rd vote tonight):

    290 - 316

    Similar to last vote
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    RobD said:

    MikeL said:

    Next amendment:

    292-316

    So people hadn't gone home!

    And another amendment now being voted on.

    Any idea when the next contentious amendment is up?
    Not sure - but not tonight.

    Final vote of the night under way now (on inclusion of a Main Clause) - so Govt voting Aye this time.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236

    Tut, what have things come to when the possibility of a current cabinet minister masturbating over his work porn stash isn't distinct in the memory? Must say I'm enjoying seeing PB Tories decide that police are the enemy within though.

    So to summarise

    The UK government can't get a deal with the EU because the man charged with keeping the DUP onside subsequent to an unnecessary election couldn't do so because he'd been caught wanking at work.

    OK, I give up. Worst Timeline Evah. Capaldi's off Doctor Who now and Armando Iannuci's off Veep. I want a new series of The Thick of It. Only satire can keep up with this appalling flustercuck... :(
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Main clause:

    315 - 290

    So Govt wins all 4 votes of the night.

    That's it - 4 days out of 8 now done and Govt still not lost a vote.
  • MikeL said:


    That's it - 4 days out of 8 now done and Govt still not lost a vote.

    What?

    This government?

    The one we are constantly being assured is absolutely useless?
  • Stumbled across this blast from the past - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKH9ECC_Qa4

    I imagine that this is how the kerfuffle around Green's PC will end up :)
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited December 2017
    MikeL said:

    Main clause:

    315 - 290

    So Govt wins all 4 votes of the night.

    That's it - 4 days out of 8 now done and Govt still not lost a vote.


    They seem awfully good at whipping. And to pre-empt the obvious crack, I'm not talking about Damian Green's bookmarks.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited December 2017
    http://www.propertyindustryeye.com/ex-prime-minister-blair-calls-for-new-annual-property-tax-and-rent-caps-to-reform-housing/

    The comment is interesting;

    " 40yearvetran08
    December 4, 2017 at 10:46

    I have been a lifelong conservative voter but when I look back on my 40 years as an Estate Agent my business has made more money under a Labour government. I do not think that this is such a ludicrous suggestion, do away with stamp duty and all other property tax and charge everyone something every year. Property should be taxed annually on size not value, that way the whole country pays and not just the higher value areas. Longer term rental is also a sensible suggestion, providing lenders will agree to it, more long term buy to let investors will come into the market and rents should come down, obviously so will capital values, however if tenants do not pay the rent then you should be able to evict them quickly.

    I have young negotiators working for me who live in London, they cannot afford to buy or in some instances to rent either, that cannot be right. I purchased my first home age 21, it was tricky but it was possible and all my friends were doing the same so I was not an exception.

    If you tax property annually, prices adjust but you cannot escape paying the tax so you might as well carry on moving, if you live in a big house with higher tax and you are feeling the pinch you are going to move, I think it would be great news for our industry. Who cares what happens to values, transactional volume is the key."
  • Pong said:

    Who cares what happens to values, transactional volume is the key."

    Home owners?

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Nou Fil

This discussion has been closed.