Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
You're stuck in one of your catchy phrase grooves again.
But I'd suggest playing politics with phrases like 'The Orange Order' is very, very silly.
I agree. They should not have a veto, but they do. That said, it’s clear a deal will be done. Yesterday was all part of the choreography. New words will be found that allow the party which got 36% of the vote in NI to sign off and which give May the opportunity to claim she has wrung important concessions out of the EU27, and we’ll move to Phase Two. But the days of Cake And Eat It are over. What we know for certain now is that Mrs May will concede plenty to get a deal because she knows that No Deal would be a disaster. It turns out the UK does not hold all the cards.
That is the hand which the voters dealt the politicians, in June.
It's plain that the DUP's concerns are shared by many Conservatives.
On both sides of the Brexit argument:
Soubry: "Nobody could want one part of our country to have a different set of rules to another part of our country,”
A senior Brexit-supporting MP, also speaking after the meeting, told journalists he too would not countenance Northern Ireland having different rules to the rest of the U.K. “The government doesn’t have a majority for that … Ireland wants to promote the creation of a United Ireland. That’s not very surprising,”
@Ed_Miliband: What an absolutely ludicrous, incompetent, absurd, make it up as you go along, couldn’t run a piss up in a brewery bunch of jokers there are running the government at the most critical time in a generation for the country.
Fine words, Ed. Sadly, not Labour policy...
@Maomentum_: Clear now that Tory Brexit is causing economic and political instability and that is why we in @UKLabour continue to fully support it.
You would have thought Ed would have got used to being on the losing side of the argument by now...
Last night a senior Tory said that Mrs May would not be allowed to concede anything substantive to Dublin. “If, to save their blushes, the Irish agree to a meaningless and frankly unenforceable set of words then great. If they don’t, or Theresa May goes too far, then we and the DUP will withdraw support and there could be a leadership change this side of Christmas.”
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
You're stuck in one of your catchy phrase grooves again.
But I'd suggest playing politics with phrases like 'The Orange Order' is very, very silly.
I agree. They should not have a veto, but they do. That said, it’s clear a deal will be done. Yesterday was all part of the choreography. New words will be found that allow the party which got 36% of the vote in NI to sign off and which give May the opportunity to claim she has wrung important concessions out of the EU27, and we’ll move to Phase Two. But the days of Cake And Eat It are over. What we know for certain now is that Mrs May will concede plenty to get a deal because she knows that No Deal would be a disaster. It turns out the UK does not hold all the cards.
That is the hand which the voters dealt the politicians, in June.
It's plain that the DUP's concerns are shared by many Conservatives.
Indeed. Many Remainers are showing as much disregard for the Union as they are for their fellow countrymen who voted Leave.
But I suspect it will be sorted. There’ll be a new form of words and the Orange Order will sign off on the basis that the alternative is worse. We should not lose sight of the general trajectory - we’re heading to a deal that will be to the softer end of the prism. And that is good news.
How will she get it past the batshit crazies on her own benches?
@PolhomeEditor: Former Brexit minister David Jones says the phrase “regulatory alignment” should not be included in any deal. What a mess.
I think May has now realised the loons have to be set free. It’ll be a gradual thing, but the direction of travel looks pretty clear.
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
Based on her mood last night, I wouldn't be surprised if it is good cop, bad cop, *by the Brits*
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
Based on her mood last night, I wouldn't be surprised if it is good cop, bad cop, *by the Brits*
Based on her mood last night, I wouldn't be surprised if it is good cop, bad cop, *by the Brits*
Getting the DUP to veto her own offer is a novel way of avoiding an Irish veto.
The DUP can tell their supporters they vetoed May and the Irish. May can tell the Tories she stood firm against the EU. The EU27 will get the deal they dictate. Everyone’s a winner politically. That’s how these things work.
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
You're stuck in one of your catchy phrase grooves again.
But I'd suggest playing politics with phrases like 'The Orange Order' is very, very silly.
I agree. They should not have a veto, but they do. That said, it’s clear a deal will be done. Yesterday was all part of the choreography. New words will be found that allow the party which got 36% of the vote in NI to sign off and which give May the opportunity to claim she has wrung important concessions out of the EU27, and we’ll move to Phase Two. But the days of Cake And Eat It are over. What we know for certain now is that Mrs May will concede plenty to get a deal because she knows that No Deal would be a disaster. It turns out the UK does not hold all the cards.
That is the hand which the voters dealt the politicians, in June.
It's plain that the DUP's concerns are shared by many Conservatives.
Indeed. Many Remainers are showing as much disregard for the Union as they are for their fellow countrymen who voted Leave.
How do you work that out? Leave plus exiting the single market and customs union implies a hard border which gives us the Northern Ireland problem (and also to a certain extent Gibraltar). Which some of us Remainers pointed out during the referendum. What are you Leavers going to do about it?
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
You're stuck in one of your catchy phrase grooves again.
But I'd suggest playing politics with phrases like 'The Orange Order' is very, very silly.
I agree. They should not have a veto, but they do. That said, it’s clear a deal will be done. Yesterday was all part of the choreography. New words will be found that allow the party which got 36% of the vote in NI to sign off and which give May the opportunity to claim she has wrung important concessions out of the EU27, and we’ll move to Phase Two. But the days of Cake And Eat It are over. What we know for certain now is that Mrs May will concede plenty to get a deal because she knows that No Deal would be a disaster. It turns out the UK does not hold all the cards.
That is the hand which the voters dealt the politicians, in June.
It's plain that the DUP's concerns are shared by many Conservatives.
There is, of course, a very simple solution - what is agreed for NI is applied to the whole UK. Presumably that’s where we’re heading.
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
The deal was leaked by the EU at about 9.30 am and before TM had even arrived in Brussels.
The EU had all their press conferences lined up in a row but it was only when the text was discussed between Junckers and May that May interupted the lunch and spoke to the DUP. It is fair to assume that she saw the dangers and post the DUP call stopped the deal
The EU really are shit at negotiating.... If the UK walks out on WTO terms, they will only have themselves to blame. And £50 billion to find.
Yeah, they are 3 nil up at the end of the first innings. They are not very good at this negotiating game are they?
This is the scenario: the DUP got to say No yesterday, May got to reject a deal and stand next to Juncker as he said what a tough negotiator she is. Now a new form of words will be crafted and we’ll move to Phase Two. The DUP and May can say they got concessions; the EU27 will have what they want. Everybody wins. The bottom line is that behind all the fog, the UK government has finally accepted it has a tremendously weak hand because there is no realistic case in which No Deal is an option. There will be a Brexit deal and it will be under the terms the EU27 dictate. Not being vindictive and wanting to retain good relations, however, the EU27 will enable both May and the DUP to save some face. It’s all good news - except for the extremists on both sides of the ausle.
Ruth Davidson may well be the Tories best bet,a sort of female Macron & youthful enough to attract the under 47s but wouldn't a return to Tory "modernisation" and a soft or no Brexit merely inflame the deep splits that already exist in the Tory oarty? I'm not sure she will import successfully to England,specifically to English Tories,so many of whom would rather go down as true believers than actually winning anything.She could try to present herslelf as a Scottish version of Margaret Thatcher,who also started life as a Europhile, and could get away with it.I am sure though the Tory Brexiteers would mount a fierce campaign to defeat her.
I imagine there is a majority in the Commons for what Ruth Davidson is suggesting. I also suspect this is what testerday was really all about. Good news.
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
You're stuck in one of your catchy phrase grooves again.
But I'd suggest playing politics with phrases like 'The Orange Order' is very, very silly.
I agree. They should not have a veto, but they do. That said, it’s clear a deal will be done. Yesterday was all part of the choreography. New words will be found that allow the party which got 36% of the vote in NI to sign off and which give May the opportunity to claim she has wrung important concessions out of the EU27, and we’ll move to Phase Two. But the days of Cake And Eat It are over. What we know for certain now is that Mrs May will concede plenty to get a deal because she knows that No Deal would be a disaster. It turns out the UK does not hold all the cards.
That is the hand which the voters dealt the politicians, in June.
It's plain that the DUP's concerns are shared by many Conservatives.
Indeed. Many Remainers are showing as much disregard for the Union as they are for their fellow countrymen who voted Leave.
How do you work that out? Leave plus exiting the single market and customs union implies a hard border which gives us the Northern Ireland problem (and also to a certain extent Gibraltar). Which some of us Remainers pointed out during the referendum. What are you Leavers going to do about it?
On balance we think that a less free trading relationship with Europe is worth it for the increased freedom of action a British government, accountable to the British people through elections, will enjoy. That freedom of action affects many areas, but for most Leavers immigration was the most important.
Committing to no hard border was very foolish. I see no reason to bend over backwards to accommodate a country which decided to sever its political connection to the UK nearly a century ago.
Thanks Carlotta, very interesting. I love things of that nature.
In terms of the negotiation, my position is fairly simple, and saves me huffing into countless paper bags; I'm waiting to see the final deal. In the meantime, no one is awarding points for artistic merit with respect to said negotiations, so the twists and turns, while doubtless fascinating to political obsessives, are ultimately meaningless.
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
it's Christmas and you just cant do without pantomime baddies
Never interrupt your opponents when they are making a mistake.
Quite canny of Labour to keep quiet at the moment - anything they say will be interpreted as taking sides for or against the DUP/EU/UK Government/Irish government and they could then be accused of trying to wreck the talks.
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
it's Christmas and you just cant do without pantomime baddies
The Orangemen need a win before they can wave through a deal. It’s no biggie!
Anyway, the Taoiseach doesn't have a point. He was negotiating with a highly unstable partner. Of course the question whether it could be sold to key factions on the other side should have been within his remit.
Correct. The art of negotiation is to find a way to yes and that includes working out what the other side can deliver.
The way that yesterday morning's leaks were being spun seemed designed to get the reaction from the DUP that it did.
I imagine there is a majority in the Commons for what Ruth Davidson is suggesting. I also suspect this is what testerday was really all about. Good news.
I do wonder if this tactic is akin to having the hard leaver frogs in an increasingly slowly heating water, slowly and slowly moving towards a softer Brexit, with no large trigger points....
Anyway, the Taoiseach doesn't have a point. He was negotiating with a highly unstable partner. Of course the question whether it could be sold to key factions on the other side should have been within his remit.
Correct. The art of negotiation is to find a way to yes and that includes working out what the other side can deliver.
The way that yesterday morning's leaks were being spun seemed designed to get the reaction from the DUP that it did.
Yep. In the cold light of day yesterday is looking increasingly choreographed. Having got everyone in the Conservative party to agree there can be no separate treatment for Northern Ireland, the next step is clear - as Ruth Davidson has now made clear.
Last night a senior Tory said that Mrs May would not be allowed to concede anything substantive to Dublin. “If, to save their blushes, the Irish agree to a meaningless and frankly unenforceable set of words then great. If they don’t, or Theresa May goes too far, then we and the DUP will withdraw support and there could be a leadership change this side of Christmas.”
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
The deal was leaked by the EU at about 9.30 am and before TM had even arrived in Brussels.
The EU had all their press conferences lined up in a row but it was only when the text was discussed between Junckers and May that May interupted the lunch and spoke to the DUP. It is fair to assume that she saw the dangers and post the DUP call stopped the deal
The EU really are shit at negotiating.... If the UK walks out on WTO terms, they will only have themselves to blame. And £50 billion to find.
Yeah, they are 3 nil up at the end of the first innings. They are not very good at this negotiating game are they?
This is the scenario: the DUP got to say No yesterday, May got to reject a deal and stand next to Juncker as he said what a tough negotiator she is. Now a new form of words will be crafted and we’ll move to Phase Two. The DUP and May can say they got concessions; the EU27 will have what they want. Everybody wins. The bottom line is that behind all the fog, the UK government has finally accepted it has a tremendously weak hand because there is no realistic case in which No Deal is an option. There will be a Brexit deal and it will be under the terms the EU27 dictate. Not being vindictive and wanting to retain good relations, however, the EU27 will enable both May and the DUP to save some face. It’s all good news - except for the extremists on both sides of the ausle.
It's not clear how May can find concessions acceptable to both the DUP and the Irish government. The DUP grassroots will now be unsettled and their MPs will accordingly be much less likely to nod through a deal without thorough consultation. Which means that the bar has been raised - what was acceptable yesterday will not be acceptable today.
I imagine there is a majority in the Commons for what Ruth Davidson is suggesting. I also suspect this is what testerday was really all about. Good news.
I do wonder if this tactic is akin to having the hard leaver frogs in an increasingly slowly heating water, slowly and slowly moving towards a softer Brexit, with no large trigger points....
You think that the tactitians at the top of the Soft wing of the Tories are that clever?
Last night a senior Tory said that Mrs May would not be allowed to concede anything substantive to Dublin. “If, to save their blushes, the Irish agree to a meaningless and frankly unenforceable set of words then great. If they don’t, or Theresa May goes too far, then we and the DUP will withdraw support and there could be a leadership change this side of Christmas.”
Never interrupt your opponents when they are making a mistake.
Quite canny of Labour to keep quiet at the moment - anything they say will be interpreted as taking sides for or against the DUP/EU/UK Government/Irish government and they could then be accused of trying to wreck the talks.
ah yes
that strategic silence they kept during the referendum, how did that work out ?
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
it's Christmas and you just cant do without pantomime baddies
The Orangemen need a win before they can wave through a deal. It’s no biggie!
Never interrupt your opponents when they are making a mistake.
Quite canny of Labour to keep quiet at the moment - anything they say will be interpreted as taking sides for or against the DUP/EU/UK Government/Irish government and they could then be accused of trying to wreck the talks.
ah yes
that strategic silence they kept during the referendum, how did that work out ?
Well enough from Labour's perspective. It enabled them to keep Leave and Remain voters onside.
Last night a senior Tory said that Mrs May would not be allowed to concede anything substantive to Dublin. “If, to save their blushes, the Irish agree to a meaningless and frankly unenforceable set of words then great. If they don’t, or Theresa May goes too far, then we and the DUP will withdraw support and there could be a leadership change this side of Christmas.”
Never interrupt your opponents when they are making a mistake.
Quite canny of Labour to keep quiet at the moment - anything they say will be interpreted as taking sides for or against the DUP/EU/UK Government/Irish government and they could then be accused of trying to wreck the talks.
ah yes
that strategic silence they kept during the referendum, how did that work out ?
Well enough from Labour's perspective. It enabled them to keep Leave and Remain voters onside.
until of course the reckoning turns up for remainers sold a pig in a poke by Corbyn
all that heartfelt anguish and they still troop through parliament to vote out
Last night a senior Tory said that Mrs May would not be allowed to concede anything substantive to Dublin. “If, to save their blushes, the Irish agree to a meaningless and frankly unenforceable set of words then great. If they don’t, or Theresa May goes too far, then we and the DUP will withdraw support and there could be a leadership change this side of Christmas.”
The deal was leaked by the EU at about 9.30 am and before TM had even arrived in Brussels.
The EU had all their press conferences lined up in a row but it was only when the text was discussed between Junckers and May that May interupted the lunch and spoke to the DUP. It is fair to assume that she saw the dangers and post the DUP call stopped the deal
The EU really are shit at negotiating.... If the UK walks out on WTO terms, they will only have themselves to blame. And £50 billion to find.
Yeah, they are 3 nil up at the end of the first innings. They are not very good at this negotiating game are they?
This is the scenario: the DUP got to say No yesterday, May got to reject a deal and stand next to Juncker as he said what a tough negotiator she is. Now a new form of words will be crafted and we’ll move to Phase Two. The DUP and May can say they got concessions; the EU27 will have what they want. Everybody wins. The bottom line is that behind all the fog, the UK government has finally accepted it has a tremendously weak hand because there is no realistic case in which No Deal is an option. There will be a Brexit deal and it will be under the terms the EU27 dictate. Not being vindictive and wanting to retain good relations, however, the EU27 will enable both May and the DUP to save some face. It’s all good news - except for the extremists on both sides of the ausle.
It's not clear how May can find concessions acceptable to both the DUP and the Irish government. The DUP grassroots will now be unsettled and their MPs will accordingly be much less likely to nod through a deal without thorough consultation. Which means that the bar has been raised - what was acceptable yesterday will not be acceptable today.
I agree. I think SO has caught NickPalmeritis, whereby the Brussels merry-go-round carries on going round, according to its own tunes and dance-steps, and whereby everyone reaches an agreement in the end, after sufficient posturing.
What this misses is that for some, red lines really are red lines. The DUP didn't do what they did yesterday because they wanted more concessions (i.e. as a negotiating tactic); they did it because the deal as it was was unacceptable. This is not something that can be smudged over with ambiguous words because behind the words will be hard facts and those facts will determine whether the DUP, Tory MPs, and the Dublin government can accept the deal.
As an aside, I don't think we've got a final deal on ex-pat rights yet either, have we? Don't assume that that's a gimme.
Last night a senior Tory said that Mrs May would not be allowed to concede anything substantive to Dublin. “If, to save their blushes, the Irish agree to a meaningless and frankly unenforceable set of words then great. If they don’t, or Theresa May goes too far, then we and the DUP will withdraw support and there could be a leadership change this side of Christmas.”
Never interrupt your opponents when they are making a mistake.
Quite canny of Labour to keep quiet at the moment - anything they say will be interpreted as taking sides for or against the DUP/EU/UK Government/Irish government and they could then be accused of trying to wreck the talks.
I'm sure the Labour of Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Robin Cook would have been sat quiet in these circumstances.
Last night a senior Tory said that Mrs May would not be allowed to concede anything substantive to Dublin. “If, to save their blushes, the Irish agree to a meaningless and frankly unenforceable set of words then great. If they don’t, or Theresa May goes too far, then we and the DUP will withdraw support and there could be a leadership change this side of Christmas.”
Don’t think they’re allowed to join. Quite sure they weren’t at one stage.
I think if you publicly renounce all satanic papishness and burn the pope in effigy in your front garden you might squeeze in.
Though the DUP say that an organisation that doesn't allow Catholics to join and expels you if you attend a mass isn't sectarian, so I guess that settles it.
Last night a senior Tory said that Mrs May would not be allowed to concede anything substantive to Dublin. “If, to save their blushes, the Irish agree to a meaningless and frankly unenforceable set of words then great. If they don’t, or Theresa May goes too far, then we and the DUP will withdraw support and there could be a leadership change this side of Christmas.”
Who is making the decision? On what we've seen so far, it is probably up to Damian Green whether he falls on his sword. The laptop evidence, for all the CCHQ-inspired fake indignation smokescreen yesterday, amounts to very little -- someone who might or might not have had the initials DG looked at legal porn 10 years ago. Embarrassing and unprofessional but hardly high crimes and misdemeanours.
The dog who has not barked in the nighttime is Keir Starmer, who probably was consulted at the time.
The deal was leaked by the EU at about 9.30 am and before TM had even arrived in Brussels.
The EU had all their press conferences lined up in a row but it was only when the text was discussed between Junckers and May that May interupted the lunch and spoke to the DUP. It is fair to assume that she saw the dangers and post the DUP call stopped the deal
The EU really are shit at negotiating.... If the UK walks out on WTO terms, they will only have themselves to blame. And £50 billion to find.
Yeah, they are 3 nil up at the end of the first innings. They are not very good at this negotiating game are they?
This is It’s all good news - except for the extremists on both sides of the ausle.
It's not clear how May can find concessions acceptable to both the DUP and the Irish government. The DUP grassroots will now be unsettled and their MPs will accordingly be much less likely to nod through a deal without thorough consultation. Which means that the bar has been raised - what was acceptable yesterday will not be acceptable today.
I agree. I think SO has caught NickPalmeritis, whereby the Brussels merry-go-round carries on going round, according to its own tunes and dance-steps, and whereby everyone reaches an agreement in the end, after sufficient posturing.
What this misses is that for some, red lines really are red lines. The DUP didn't do what they did yesterday because they wanted more concessions (i.e. as a negotiating tactic); they did it because the deal as it was was unacceptable. This is not something that can be smudged over with ambiguous words because behind the words will be hard facts and those facts will determine whether the DUP, Tory MPs, and the Dublin government can accept the deal.
As an aside, I don't think we've got a final deal on ex-pat rights yet either, have we? Don't assume that that's a gimme.
The DUP's red line seems to be that NI is not treated as a special case. If the UK as a whole signs up to what seems to have previously been agreed only with regards to NI then that red line disappears, surely, and the only one that remains is the one drawn by the loons on the Tory right flank.
Something does not add up with yesterday's events. Reporting this morning the Conservative Party is fully aligned with the DUP includimg all remainers and leavers.
If that is the case did TM chance her arm or was she set up by the Irish Government and the EU
If it was the former I would suggest she will have a leadership challenge very soon
She was set up by the EU and their Remanian friends in the media, as usual.
How long before she decides she can’t be bothered with all this and walks away to WTO?
She agreed a deal. The DUP blocked it. That’s what happened. The Orange Order is dictating British foreign policy via a party that got 36% of the vote in Northern Ireland in June.
The deal was leaked by the EU at about 9.30 am and before TM had even arrived in Brussels.
The EU had all their press conferences lined up in a row but it was only when the text was discussed between Junckers and May that May interupted the lunch and spoke to the DUP. It is fair to assume that she saw the dangers and post the DUP call stopped the deal
The EU really are shit at negotiating.... If the UK walks out on WTO terms, they will only have themselves to blame. And £50 billion to find.
Yeah, they are 3 nil up at the end of the first innings. They are not very good at this negotiating game are they?
This is the ausle.
It's not clear how May can find concessions acceptable to both the DUP and the Irish government. The DUP grassroots will now be unsettled and their MPs will accordingly be much less likely to nod through a deal without thorough consultation. Which means that the bar has been raised - what was acceptable yesterday will not be acceptable today.
Today's statement from Ruth Davidson seems to set out how the DUP gets brought onside.
Ruth Davidson's support for the DUP position is no surprise to me as a significant element of her politicking has been to embrace and see elected in Scotland as councillors an element of racist and sectarian bigots.
Fortunately that of itself in modern Scotland is enough to cap the potential for the Tories ever to be the lead party in a Scotland.
The deal was leaked by the EU at about 9.30 am and before TM had even arrived in Brussels.
The EU had all their press conferences lined up in a row but it was only when the text was discussed between Junckers and May that May interupted the lunch and spoke to the DUP. It is fair to assume that she saw the dangers and post the DUP call stopped the deal
The EU really are shit at negotiating.... If the UK walks out on WTO terms, they will only have themselves to blame. And £50 billion to find.
Yeah, they are 3 nil up at the end of the first innings. They are not very good at this negotiating game are they?
This is It’s all good news - except for the extremists on both sides of the ausle.
It's not clear how May can find concessions acceptable to both the DUP and the Irish government. The DUP grassroots will now be unsettled and their MPs will accordingly be much less likely to nod through a deal without thorough consultation. Which means that the bar has been raised - what was acceptable yesterday will not be acceptable today.
I agree. I think SO has caught NickPalmeritis, whereby the Brussels merry-go-round carries on going round, according to its own tunes and dance-steps, and whereby everyone reaches an agreement in the end, after sufficient posturing.
What this misses is that for some, red lines really are red lines. The DUP didn't do what they did yesterday because they wanted more concessions (i.e. as a negotiating tactic); they did it because the deal as it was was unacceptable. This is not something that can be smudged over with ambiguous words because behind the words will be hard facts and those facts will determine whether the DUP, Tory MPs, and the Dublin government can accept the deal.
As an aside, I don't think we've got a final deal on ex-pat rights yet either, have we? Don't assume that that's a gimme.
The DUP's red line seems to be that NI is not treated as a special case. If the UK as a whole signs up to what seems to have previously been agreed only with regards to NI then that red line disappears, surely, and the only one that remains is the one drawn by the loons on the Tory right flank.
Which is exactly what May presented yesterday - but the EU and Ireland, with a bit of help from the usual voices, described as something entirely different : SM & CU membership.
The deal was leaked by the EU at about 9.30 am and before TM had even arrived in Brussels.
The EU had all their press conferences lined up in a row but it was only when the text was discussed between Junckers and May that May interupted the lunch and spoke to the DUP. It is fair to assume that she saw the dangers and post the DUP call stopped the deal
The EU really are shit at negotiating.... If the UK walks out on WTO terms, they will only have themselves to blame. And £50 billion to find.
Yeah, they are 3 nil up at the end of the first innings. They are not very good at this negotiating game are they?
This is It’s all good news - except for the extremists on both sides of the ausle.
It's not clear how May can find concessions acceptable to both the DUP and the Irish government. The DUP grassroots will now be unsettled and their MPs will accordingly be much less likely to nod through a deal without thorough consultation. Which means that the bar has been raised - what was acceptable yesterday will not be acceptable today.
I agree. I think SO has caught NickPalmeritis, whereby the Brussels merry-go-round carries on going round, according to its own tunes and dance-steps, and whereby everyone reaches an agreement in the end, after sufficient posturing.
What this misses is that for some, red lines really are red lines. The DUP didn't do what they did yesterday because they wanted more concessions (i.e. as a negotiating tactic); they did it because the deal as it was was unacceptable. This is not something that can be smudged over with ambiguous words because behind the words will be hard facts and those facts will determine whether the DUP, Tory MPs, and the Dublin government can accept the deal.
As an aside, I don't think we've got a final deal on ex-pat rights yet either, have we? Don't assume that that's a gimme.
The DUP's red line seems to be that NI is not treated as a special case. If the UK as a whole signs up to what seems to have previously been agreed only with regards to NI then that red line disappears, surely, and the only one that remains is the one drawn by the loons on the Tory right flank.
Which is exactly what May presented yesterday - but the EU and Ireland, with a bit of help from the usual voices, described as something entirely different : SM & CU membership.
And when that is now agreed the DUP gets its win, May gets her win and the EU27 get their win. The only losers are the loons. What is not to like?
Got to be a best out of three. Brexit isn't going to work unless more of the country gets behind it. Best out of three and everyone accepts the result. Time for some lateral thinking.
Ruth Davidson's support for the DUP position is no surprise to me as a significant element of her politicking has been to embrace and see elected in Scotland as councillors an element of racist and sectarian bigots.
Fortunately that of itself in modern Scotland is enough to cap the potential for the Tories ever to be the lead party in a Scotland.
Ruth Davidson is proposing a deal that will see the whole of the UK avoid regulatory divergence with the EU27 in a wide range of areas. That is surely very good news for Scotland, isn't it?
How Ancient Leaders would be handling EU negotiations: Caesar – call for summit. Massacre everyone else and accuse them of planning treachery, necessitating a pre-emptive strike. Hannibal – sneak attack through the Channel Tunnel. Alexius Comnenus – persuade France to invade Germany. Accept the surrender of Denmark.
The deal was l. and post the DUP call stopped the deal
The EU really are shit at negotiating.... If the UK walks out on WTO terms, they will only have themselves to blame. And £50 billion to find.
Yeah, they are 3 nil up at the end of the first innings. They are not very good at this negotiating game are they?
This is It’s all good news - except for the extremists on both sides of the ausle.
It's not clear how May can find concessions acceptable to both the DUP and the Irish government. The DUP grassroots will now be unsettled and their MPs will accordingly be much less likely to nod through a deal without thorough consultation. Which means that the bar has been raised - what was acceptable yesterday will not be acceptable today.
I agree. I think SO has caught NickPalmeritis, whereby the Brussels merry-go-round carries on going round, according to its own tunes and dance-steps, and whereby everyone reaches an agreement in the end, after sufficient posturing.
What this misses is that for some, red lines really are red lines. The DUP didn't do what they did yesterday because they wanted more concessions (i.e. as a negotiating tactic); they did it because the deal as it was was unacceptable. This is not something that can be smudged over with ambiguous words because behind the words will be hard facts and those facts will determine whether the DUP, Tory MPs, and the Dublin government can accept the deal.
As an aside, I don't think we've got a final deal on ex-pat rights yet either, have we? Don't assume that that's a gimme.
The DUP's red line seems to be that NI is not treated as a special case. If the UK as a whole signs up to what seems to have previously been agreed only with regards to NI then that red line disappears, surely, and the only one that remains is the one drawn by the loons on the Tory right flank.
Which is exactly what May presented yesterday - but the EU and Ireland, with a bit of help from the usual voices, described as something entirely different : SM & CU membership.
And when that is now agreed the DUP gets its win, May gets her win and the EU27 get their win. The only losers are the loons. What is not to like?
If the intent is to agree to that, why try to spike it by putting out false info yesterday? We could have moved on, it would have been done - and the cabinet were on board.
Ruth Davidson's support for the DUP position is no surprise to me as a significant element of her politicking has been to embrace and see elected in Scotland as councillors an element of racist and sectarian bigots.
Fortunately that of itself in modern Scotland is enough to cap the potential for the Tories ever to be the lead party in a Scotland.
Not quite sure what about Davidson's statement smacks of bigotry, but each to their own, I guess.
We should perhaps be clear that the pound is falling because the market is spooked by Corbyn and not because the government is making a cods of Brexit. It is similarly true that strident Brexiteers are seeking to protect their assets from Corbyn not Brexit.
The deal was l. and post the DUP call stopped the deal
The EU really are shit at negotiating.... If the UK walks out on WTO terms, they will only have themselves to blame. And £50 billion to find.
Yeah, they are 3 nil up at the end of the first innings. They are not very good at this negotiating game are they?
This is It’s all good news - except for the extremists on both sides of the ausle.
It's not clear how May can find concessions acceptable to both the DUP and the Irish government. The DUP grassroots will now be unsettled and their MPs will accordingly be much less likely to nod through a deal without thorough consultation. Which means that the bar has been raised - what was acceptable yesterday will not be acceptable today.
I agree. I think SO has caught NickPalmeritis, whereby the Brussels merry-go-round carries on going round, according to its own tunes and dance-steps, and whereby everyone reaches an agreement in the end, after sufficient posturing.
What deal.
As an aside, I don't think we've got a final deal on ex-pat rights yet either, have we? Don't assume that that's a gimme.
The DUP's red line seems to be that NI is not treated as a special case. If the UK as a whole signs up to what seems to have previously been agreed only with regards to NI then that red line disappears, surely, and the only one that remains is the one drawn by the loons on the Tory right flank.
Which is exactly what May presented yesterday - but the EU and Ireland, with a bit of help from the usual voices, described as something entirely different : SM & CU membership.
And when that is now agreed the DUP gets its win, May gets her win and the EU27 get their win. The only losers are the loons. What is not to like?
If the intent is to agree to that, why try to spike it by putting out false info yesterday? We could have moved on, it would have been done - and the cabinet were on board.
The key moment yesterday was May standing next to Juncker as he said what a tough negotiator she is, and both he and her saying they were confident a deal would be done. That all happened after the leaks etc.
How Ancient Leaders would be handling EU negotiations: Caesar – call for summit. Massacre everyone else and accuse them of planning treachery, necessitating a pre-emptive strike. Hannibal – sneak attack through the Channel Tunnel. Alexius Comnenus – persuade France to invade Germany. Accept the surrender of Denmark.
Boudicca - burn all buildings with the EU logo anywhere on the premises and leave disembowelled, headless corpses hanging from them as a dreadful warning.
This is why I'm reluctant to bet heavily on some cricket matches.
The International Cricket Council’s anti-corruption unit is understood to be conducting up to seven live investigations into fixing at present, with three international captains having reported illicit approaches in just the past two months.
Of the captains, two names have already leaked in the public domain. Pakistan’s Sarfraz Ahmed and Graeme Cremer of Zimbabwe have already been reported to have rebuffed offers from intermediaries and flagged them up to the relevant authorities within the hour. The identity of the third is yet to be established and the ICC do not comment in such instances.
This is why I'm reluctant to bet heavily on some cricket matches.
The International Cricket Council’s anti-corruption unit is understood to be conducting up to seven live investigations into fixing at present, with three international captains having reported illicit approaches in just the past two months.
Of the captains, two names have already leaked in the public domain. Pakistan’s Sarfraz Ahmed and Graeme Cremer of Zimbabwe have already been reported to have rebuffed offers from intermediaries and flagged them up to the relevant authorities within the hour. The identity of the third is yet to be established and the ICC do not comment in such instances.
Can the BT commentators please stop talking over the third umpire.
Just shut the eff up.
Graeme Swann's spent too much time in Australia. He treats hs fellow commentatoress like she's a silly schoolgirl. Lucky he's being employed by BT not the BBC or he'd be on the naughty step with Damien Green
Based on her mood last night, I wouldn't be surprised if it is good cop, bad cop, *by the Brits*
Getting the DUP to veto her own offer is a novel way of avoiding an Irish veto.
So she goes back to the EU and says "I need more"
The first leak of the 'false offer' was from RTE. That puts the Irish govt's fingerprints on it. It would suggest that its the EU who thinks that scuppering what was a reasonable agreement is in their benefit.
They might still think that there is a possibility of getting a better govt in the UK to negotiate with.
The key moment yesterday was May standing next to Juncker as he said what a tough negotiator she is, and both he and her saying they were confident a deal would be done. That all happened after the leaks etc.
I admire your optimism but I find it impossible to believe that yesterday was all an elaborate charade designed to show everyone how tough the negotiations are. The advance briefings, the fact that ambassadors from the other EU27 were all in a side room waiting to sign off on the deal and the expressions on the faces of May and Juncker when they met the media tell a very different story.
This is why I'm reluctant to bet heavily on some cricket matches.
The International Cricket Council’s anti-corruption unit is understood to be conducting up to seven live investigations into fixing at present, with three international captains having reported illicit approaches in just the past two months.
Of the captains, two names have already leaked in the public domain. Pakistan’s Sarfraz Ahmed and Graeme Cremer of Zimbabwe have already been reported to have rebuffed offers from intermediaries and flagged them up to the relevant authorities within the hour. The identity of the third is yet to be established and the ICC do not comment in such instances.
Based on her mood last night, I wouldn't be surprised if it is good cop, bad cop, *by the Brits*
Getting the DUP to veto her own offer is a novel way of avoiding an Irish veto.
So she goes back to the EU and says "I need more"
The first leak of the 'false offer' was from RTE. That puts the Irish govt's fingerprints on it. It would suggest that its the EU who thinks that scuppering what was a reasonable agreement is in their benefit.
They might still think that there is a possibility of getting a better govt in the UK to negotiate with.
They were trying to bounce May into a different deal to the one she'd agreed? Thought she would accept anything to move on?
Can the BT commentators please stop talking over the third umpire.
Just shut the eff up.
Graeme Swann's spent too much time in Australia. He treats hs fellow commentatoress like she's a silly schoolgirl. Lucky he's being employed by BT not the BBC or he'd be on the naughty step with Damien Green
I think Graeme Swann's also working for TMS as well.
Ruth Davidson's support for the DUP position is no surprise to me as a significant element of her politicking has been to embrace and see elected in Scotland as councillors an element of racist and sectarian bigots.
Fortunately that of itself in modern Scotland is enough to cap the potential for the Tories ever to be the lead party in a Scotland.
Ruth Davidson is proposing a deal that will see the whole of the UK avoid regulatory divergence with the EU27 in a wide range of areas. That is surely very good news for Scotland, isn't it?
It is terrible news for Scotland and for the UK. It ties everyone into a high regulation, high cost environment but for no benefit as we are not going to agree preferential access to the SM. Even for those who think that Brexit is a mistake, if a CETA style FTA is all we are going to get, then they have to accept that we need to be able to take advantage of the benefits afforded by Brexit (eg controlling own trade policy and regulation) to offset the damage they say will be caused.
Staying in the SM and CU and avoiding FOM is not available and will never be available, and therefore there is no point pining for this. But agreeing an FTA and then tying yourself to EU regulation is the definition of the worst of all Worlds.
Based on her mood last night, I wouldn't be surprised if it is good cop, bad cop, *by the Brits*
Getting the DUP to veto her own offer is a novel way of avoiding an Irish veto.
So she goes back to the EU and says "I need more"
The first leak of the 'false offer' was from RTE. That puts the Irish govt's fingerprints on it. It would suggest that its the EU who thinks that scuppering what was a reasonable agreement is in their benefit.
They might still think that there is a possibility of getting a better govt in the UK to negotiate with.
They were trying to bounce May into a different deal to the one she'd agreed? Thought she would accept anything to move on?
Or they think in a choice between Remain and No Deal, remain would win?
Can the BT commentators please stop talking over the third umpire.
Just shut the eff up.
Graeme Swann's spent too much time in Australia. He treats hs fellow commentatoress like she's a silly schoolgirl. Lucky he's being employed by BT not the BBC or he'd be on the naughty step with Damien Green
I think Graeme Swann's also working for TMS as well.
Swann could be a witty and insightful commentator, but his inability to shut up (and irritating habit of laughing at his own jokes) make him more like the pub bore.
Can the BT commentators please stop talking over the third umpire.
Just shut the eff up.
Graeme Swann's spent too much time in Australia. He treats hs fellow commentatoress like she's a silly schoolgirl. Lucky he's being employed by BT not the BBC or he'd be on the naughty step with Damien Green
I think Graeme Swann's also working for TMS as well.
Swann could be a witty and insightful commentator, but his inability to shut up (and irritating habit of laughing at his own jokes) make him more like the pub bore.
Based on her mood last night, I wouldn't be surprised if it is good cop, bad cop, *by the Brits*
Getting the DUP to veto her own offer is a novel way of avoiding an Irish veto.
So she goes back to the EU and says "I need more"
The first leak of the 'false offer' was from RTE. That puts the Irish govt's fingerprints on it. It would suggest that its the EU who thinks that scuppering what was a reasonable agreement is in their benefit.
They might still think that there is a possibility of getting a better govt in the UK to negotiate with.
They were trying to bounce May into a different deal to the one she'd agreed? Thought she would accept anything to move on?
Or they think in a choice between Remain and No Deal, remain would win?
Based on her mood last night, I wouldn't be surprised if it is good cop, bad cop, *by the Brits*
Getting the DUP to veto her own offer is a novel way of avoiding an Irish veto.
So she goes back to the EU and says "I need more"
The first leak of the 'false offer' was from RTE. That puts the Irish govt's fingerprints on it. It would suggest that its the EU who thinks that scuppering what was a reasonable agreement is in their benefit.
They might still think that there is a possibility of getting a better govt in the UK to negotiate with.
They were trying to bounce May into a different deal to the one she'd agreed? Thought she would accept anything to move on?
This is exactly how it works. What is agreed can now be presented as a victory for May.
Comments
Soubry: "Nobody could want one part of our country to have a different set of rules to another part of our country,”
A senior Brexit-supporting MP, also speaking after the meeting, told journalists he too would not countenance Northern Ireland having different rules to the rest of the U.K. “The government doesn’t have a majority for that … Ireland wants to promote the creation of a United Ireland. That’s not very surprising,”
Last night a senior Tory said that Mrs May would not be allowed to concede anything substantive to Dublin. “If, to save their blushes, the Irish agree to a meaningless and frankly unenforceable set of words then great. If they don’t, or Theresa May goes too far, then we and the DUP will withdraw support and there could be a leadership change this side of Christmas.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/may-fights-to-save-brexit-deal-after-dup-veto-d5q9623wn
http://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/histomap-big.html
Leave plus exiting the single market and customs union implies a hard border which gives us the Northern Ireland problem (and also to a certain extent Gibraltar). Which some of us Remainers pointed out during the referendum. What are you Leavers going to do about it?
https://twitter.com/ruthdavidsonmsp/status/937972391577341952
Committing to no hard border was very foolish. I see no reason to bend over backwards to accommodate a country which decided to sever its political connection to the UK nearly a century ago.
Thanks Carlotta, very interesting. I love things of that nature.
In terms of the negotiation, my position is fairly simple, and saves me huffing into countless paper bags; I'm waiting to see the final deal. In the meantime, no one is awarding points for artistic merit with respect to said negotiations, so the twists and turns, while doubtless fascinating to political obsessives, are ultimately meaningless.
Quite canny of Labour to keep quiet at the moment - anything they say will be interpreted as taking sides for or against the DUP/EU/UK Government/Irish government and they could then be accused of trying to wreck the talks.
https://twitter.com/bbcnickrobinson/status/937944871847038977
Just shut the eff up.
(* For those who don't know, Root's nickname after his first match in charge of Yorkshire.)
that strategic silence they kept during the referendum, how did that work out ?
Just joshing ye, not surprised at all!
http://shop.grandorangelodge.co.uk/acatalog/index.html
all that heartfelt anguish and they still troop through parliament to vote out
They've never got within 100 of such a total.
What this misses is that for some, red lines really are red lines. The DUP didn't do what they did yesterday because they wanted more concessions (i.e. as a negotiating tactic); they did it because the deal as it was was unacceptable. This is not something that can be smudged over with ambiguous words because behind the words will be hard facts and those facts will determine whether the DUP, Tory MPs, and the Dublin government can accept the deal.
As an aside, I don't think we've got a final deal on ex-pat rights yet either, have we? Don't assume that that's a gimme.
I like orange, but am not keen on the bowler hats.
Though the DUP say that an organisation that doesn't allow Catholics to join and expels you if you attend a mass isn't sectarian, so I guess that settles it.
The dog who has not barked in the nighttime is Keir Starmer, who probably was consulted at the time.
Fortunately that of itself in modern Scotland is enough to cap the potential for the Tories ever to be the lead party in a Scotland.
https://twitter.com/Brexit/status/937983395501658112
https://twitter.com/nonideefixe/status/937772888538714114
Caesar – call for summit. Massacre everyone else and accuse them of planning treachery, necessitating a pre-emptive strike.
Hannibal – sneak attack through the Channel Tunnel.
Alexius Comnenus – persuade France to invade Germany. Accept the surrender of Denmark.
The International Cricket Council’s anti-corruption unit is understood to be conducting up to seven live investigations into fixing at present, with three international captains having reported illicit approaches in just the past two months.
Of the captains, two names have already leaked in the public domain. Pakistan’s Sarfraz Ahmed and Graeme Cremer of Zimbabwe have already been reported to have rebuffed offers from intermediaries and flagged them up to the relevant authorities within the hour. The identity of the third is yet to be established and the ICC do not comment in such instances.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/dec/05/icc-anti-corruption-unit-seven-fixing-cricket
As Davidson specifically calls for Scotland not to get a differentiated deal which woud help the Scottish economy, I tend to disagree with you.
https://twitter.com/NickJTimothy/status/937986858084159488
https://twitter.com/skydavidblevins/status/937987165828669440
They might still think that there is a possibility of getting a better govt in the UK to negotiate with.
Staying in the SM and CU and avoiding FOM is not available and will never be available, and therefore there is no point pining for this. But agreeing an FTA and then tying yourself to EU regulation is the definition of the worst of all Worlds.