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  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    They absolutely don't get it. Nor do they care.

    I went round a housing association estate at the weekend, to drop off keys with my gas engineer. This is in a town in rural Hampshire.

    I saw several Polish cars with Polish numberplates. And the twain do not mix.

    It is a recipe for tension. The only solution they need is that the Government is listening and takes them seriously, and that the overall rate is controlled.
    There are large areas of Southampton which are dominated by people from Poland especially in parts of Shirley. The high street in Shirley is jam packed with Polish shops.
  • TOPPING said:



    Don't worry, Tyndall is just suffering from Post-Victory Shrill Bitterness Syndrome. Remainers were cowards this morning even Navy types who didn't stick to port.

    Nope. This is nothing to do with Brexit. I detest Heseltine as a treacherous self serving scumbag who helped to bring down Thatcher, betrayed the Nottinghamshire miners and put his own ambition ahead of any loyalty to leader, party or country.

    Contrast with someone like Ken Clark who may be a terrible Remoaner but has always done his damndest to stay loyal to party and country.
    Whilst that's true in his prime Clarke went out of his way to be rude to eurosceptics.

    It partly explains why there's such little dialogue domestically in the UK now, and the atmosphere is extremely febrile.
  • tpfkar said:

    MikeSole said:

    Perhaps T May should just appoint a member of the DUP as Brexit Secretary to see what solution they would negotiate!

    That's the most plausible suggestion I've heard all week.

    Leo, meet Arlene. Arlene, Leo. I'll come back when you've an agreed proposal to present to me.
    They will rapidly agree that London should pay more money across the Irish Sea.
    The DUP will wait until the last possible moment, and then name their price.
  • BudG said:

    If you do not know where you want to go, how can you look at the map and decide which route to take?
    If you do not know what destinations Ryanair flies to, how do you know where to go on holiday?

    Answer: you do both at once. You scope out options and make decisions accordingly.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @bbclaurak: 1. Hammond confirms publicly what everyone in SW1 knew privately - cabinet is still to have THE big discussion about the kind of Brexit they ultimately think we should have - DUP row has hugely ramped up the pressure for it to happen

    @bbclaurak: 3. But in real life, it's not impossible at all, putting off the conversation is the way that May has chosen to keep the show on the road

    @bbclaurak: 4. And by delaying the discussion, she's delaying the potential bust ups, or resignations, or chaos of a kind that we haven't seen yet
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,764

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    What was the "ideal lunch?"
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    If you do not know what destinations Ryanair flies to, how do you know where to go on holiday?

    Answer: you do both at once. You scope out options and make decisions accordingly.

    Except you all want to go to different places, and several members of the group are barred from some of them, some of them are too scared to fly, and rest want to holiday in Britain, Dammit!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    Do you not think there is a link between the UK's awful productivity and the ability of companies to just throw unskilled labour at any problem?
    Yes of course but that doesn't detract from the central premise.
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711

    BudG said:

    If you do not know where you want to go, how can you look at the map and decide which route to take?
    If you do not know what destinations Ryanair flies to, how do you know where to go on holiday?

    Answer: you do both at once. You scope out options and make decisions accordingly.
    Dunno about you, but personally I don't allow my choice of holiday destination to be limited as to which destinations Ryanair chooses to fly to.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    BudG said:

    Dunno about you, but personally I don't allow my choice of holiday destination to be limited as to which destinations Ryanair chooses to fly to.

    And of course Ryanair doesn't actually fly to any holiday destinations, just near them...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:
    Looks like a very sensible deal after all the posturing.

    Now we just need a heavy from within the EU to explain the facts of life to the Taoiseach.
    Why do we insist on using their funny language to describe this imbeciles job ?


    "Irish PM" should be compulsory.
    I use it because I'm still trying to learn to spell it, so far with no success. I have to look it up every single time.
    Tea shop.
    How much tea
    Could a Taoiseach chuck
    If a Taoiseach could chuck tea ?
    I thought it was Tea Sock?
    tiːʃəx
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    What was the "ideal lunch?"
    I can't remember all the details but it was so elaborate it made Ian Fleming's novel Bond look like the kind of guy who'd prefer to go out for a kebab in comparison.
  • Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: 1. Hammond confirms publicly what everyone in SW1 knew privately - cabinet is still to have THE big discussion about the kind of Brexit they ultimately think we should have - DUP row has hugely ramped up the pressure for it to happen

    @bbclaurak: 3. But in real life, it's not impossible at all, putting off the conversation is the way that May has chosen to keep the show on the road

    @bbclaurak: 4. And by delaying the discussion, she's delaying the potential bust ups, or resignations, or chaos of a kind that we haven't seen yet

    Any excuse for May keeping her thoughts to herself, she'll take.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Of course they do. And I wouldn't attempt to explain to many people the ineluctable march of progress and how throughout history there have been such dislocations and re-orientating of economies. But them's the facts.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited December 2017
    TOPPING said:

    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.

    This is the Gus O'Donnell argument. I personally found it extraordinary that the highest British civil servant should have made it so explicitly: "I think it’s my job to maximise global welfare, not national welfare."

    There is a argument, but I think on balance it is one we should reject, in favour of putting the welfare of our own citizens (and those that have already come to live here under current arrangements) first.

    Additionally, the logic of this argument would drain developing countries of their best brains and entrepreneurs. On balance, the middle classes of both countries gain; the working classes of both countries lose.

    Of course, had I been born in Bucharest or Addis Ababa I'd probably be pretty keen to come to Western Europe. It doesn't follow that I would have a right to.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    Who the hell says I could afford it. Clue is in the word "ideal". :smile:
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:
    Looks like a very sensible deal after all the posturing.

    Now we just need a heavy from within the EU to explain the facts of life to the Taoiseach.
    Why do we insist on using their funny language to describe this imbeciles job ?


    "Irish PM" should be compulsory.
    I use it because I'm still trying to learn to spell it, so far with no success. I have to look it up every single time.
    Tea shop.
    How much tea
    Could a Taoiseach chuck
    If a Taoiseach could chuck tea ?
    I thought it was Tea Sock?
    tiːʃəx
    No thanks. You're not my type.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    BudG said:

    If you do not know where you want to go, how can you look at the map and decide which route to take?
    If you do not know what destinations Ryanair flies to, how do you know where to go on holiday?

    Answer: you do both at once. You scope out options and make decisions accordingly.
    If it were Brexit you'd end up spending two weeks in Stansted airport writing "wish EU were here" messages.
  • currystar said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    They absolutely don't get it. Nor do they care.

    I went round a housing association estate at the weekend, to drop off keys with my gas engineer. This is in a town in rural Hampshire.

    I saw several Polish cars with Polish numberplates. And the twain do not mix.

    It is a recipe for tension. The only solution they need is that the Government is listening and takes them seriously, and that the overall rate is controlled.
    There are large areas of Southampton which are dominated by people from Poland especially in parts of Shirley. The high street in Shirley is jam packed with Polish shops.
    My home town was full of Poles decades before we joined the EU. There was no tension then and there is no reason for tension now.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    RoyalBlue said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I thinkany of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    Here we have it; wisdom from on high, generously bestowed upon us by one of our betters. We should graciously accept becoming a minority in our own neighbourhood, city and eventually country, because the people who don't bear the brunt of it get to feel self-righteous. Rich countries that have not opened their borders to culturally alien migrants (Japan, South Korea) are clearly disaster zones.

    hmm - I don't think it follows that this is a permanent change in our culture. But what is our culture? What about The Windrush? How about the Ugandan Asian crisis, the Jews, the Huguenots.

    No doubt you bemoan the corrupting of our fine English stock. But wait. When was it that the Kings of England started to speak English? Wasn't John known (amongst other things) for being the first King to actually stay in England? Wasn't that one of the reasons for Magna Carta that because he was here, because he didn't have foreign lands to plunder, he turned his attention to the barons and they didn't like it. I digress.

    Point is, what is our culture?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    TOPPING said:



    Don't worry, Tyndall is just suffering from Post-Victory Shrill Bitterness Syndrome. Remainers were cowards this morning even Navy types who didn't stick to port.

    Nope. This is nothing to do with Brexit. I detest Heseltine as a treacherous self serving scumbag who helped to bring down Thatcher, betrayed the Nottinghamshire miners and put his own ambition ahead of any loyalty to leader, party or country.

    Contrast with someone like Ken Clark who may be a terrible Remoaner but has always done his damndest to stay loyal to party and country.
    I think you ought to calm down a little. None of the things you mention lead him to deserve being called, treacherous, self-serving or a scumbag. And as ever, you need to look at the other side of the ledger as well.

    Was Heseltine perfect? Heck, no. Was he a good politician? Compare to the current generations such as Johnson, yes. We he good for the country? Certainly, IMO. Was he a patriot? Probably, yes.

    Heseltine had a view of the country that you might well agree with: one of the UK as a prosperous country, and one of regeneration. And he was willing to work beyond party lines to get what he thought was right.

    When it comes to Thatcher, the people who brought her down probably did both her and the country good. She was sadly past her best, and I doubt she'd have resisted the problems that the 'bastards' were to cause the party over the next decade any better than Major.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Scott_P said:

    If you do not know what destinations Ryanair flies to, how do you know where to go on holiday?

    Answer: you do both at once. You scope out options and make decisions accordingly.

    Except you all want to go to different places, and several members of the group are barred from some of them, some of them are too scared to fly, and rest want to holiday in Britain, Dammit!
    Just a microcosm of the nation then.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,764
    edited December 2017

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    What was the "ideal lunch?"
    I can't remember all the details but it was so elaborate it made Ian Fleming's novel Bond look like the kind of guy who'd prefer to go out for a kebab in comparison.
    I think I'd vomit if I had to try and force my way through one of those 7 course State banquets they had in the 19th century, dressed in white tie and tails, each course served with its own wine, followed by port and brandy, in a room thick with cigar smoke.

    My ideal meal would consist of two courses.
  • TOPPING said:

    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.

    This is the Gus O'Donnell argument. I personally found it extraordinary that the highest British civil servant should have made it so explicitly: "I think it’s my job to maximise global welfare, not national welfare."

    There is a argument, but I think on balance it is one we should reject, in favour of putting the welfare of our own citizens (and those that have already come to live here under current arrangements) first.

    Additionally, the logic of this argument would drain developing countries of their best brains and entrepreneurs. On balance, the middle classes of both countries gain; the working classes of both countries lose.

    Of course, had I been born in Bucharest or Addis Ababa I'd probably be pretty keen to come to Western Europe. It doesn't follow that I would have a right to.
    Gus O'Donnell's statement was one of the most shocking things I'd ever read.

    Yet, at the same time, part of me was also not surprised by it. I expect the FCO has been thinking like this for a long time.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    What was the "ideal lunch?"
    I can't remember all the details but it was so elaborate it made Ian Fleming's novel Bond look like the kind of guy who'd prefer to go out for a kebab in comparison.
    I think I'd vomit if I had to try and force my way through one of those 7 course State banquets they had in the 19th century, dressed in white tie and tails, each course served with its own wine, followed by port and brandy, in a room thick with cigar smoke.
    The lumpenproletariat of Frognal shall rise up finally to overthrow their lords and masters.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited December 2017

    TOPPING said:

    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.

    This is the Gus O'Donnell argument. I personally found it extraordinary that the highest British civil servant should have made it so explicitly: "I think it’s my job to maximise global welfare, not national welfare."

    There is a argument, but I think on balance it is one we should reject, in favour of putting the welfare of our own citizens (and those that have already come to live here under current arrangements) first.

    Additionally, the logic of this argument would drain developing countries of their best brains and entrepreneurs. On balance, the middle classes of both countries gain; the working classes of both countries lose.

    Of course, had I been born in Bucharest or Addis Ababa I'd probably be pretty keen to come to Western Europe. It doesn't follow that I would have a right to.
    Well the other side of that coin is that every Labour politician who bemoans the inequality of the UK should take a moment to ponder the inequality of the globe. To a $2 a day person in the LDCs an MP, for example, has untold and unimaginable riches.
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We .
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    What was the "ideal lunch?"
    I can't remember all the details but it was so elaborate it made Ian Fleming's novel Bond look like the kind of guy who'd prefer to go out for a kebab in comparison.
    I think I'd vomit if I had to try and force my way through one of those 7 course State banquets they had in the 19th century, dressed in white tie and tails, each course served with its own wine, followed by port and brandy, in a room thick with cigar smoke.

    My ideal meal would consist of two courses.
    I think that was just Victoria's gluttony, which was inherited and expanded upon by the Prince of Wales.

    I do enjoy three courses, with a cocktail prior, wine during, and dessert wine/port thereafter with cheeses, but only occasionally.
  • TOPPING said:



    Don't worry, Tyndall is just suffering from Post-Victory Shrill Bitterness Syndrome. Remainers were cowards this morning even Navy types who didn't stick to port.

    Nope. This is nothing to do with Brexit. I detest Heseltine as a treacherous self serving scumbag who helped to bring down Thatcher, betrayed the Nottinghamshire miners and put his own ambition ahead of any loyalty to leader, party or country.

    Contrast with someone like Ken Clark who may be a terrible Remoaner but has always done his damndest to stay loyal to party and country.
    I think you ought to calm down a little. None of the things you mention lead him to deserve being called, treacherous, self-serving or a scumbag. And as ever, you need to look at the other side of the ledger as well.

    Was Heseltine perfect? Heck, no. Was he a good politician? Compare to the current generations such as Johnson, yes. We he good for the country? Certainly, IMO. Was he a patriot? Probably, yes.

    Heseltine had a view of the country that you might well agree with: one of the UK as a prosperous country, and one of regeneration. And he was willing to work beyond party lines to get what he thought was right.

    When it comes to Thatcher, the people who brought her down probably did both her and the country good. She was sadly past her best, and I doubt she'd have resisted the problems that the 'bastards' were to cause the party over the next decade any better than Major.
    Heseltine thought he had a right to the throne.

    Thatcher just got drunk on her own tonic.
  • Scott_P said:

    If you do not know what destinations Ryanair flies to, how do you know where to go on holiday?

    Answer: you do both at once. You scope out options and make decisions accordingly.

    Except you all want to go to different places, and several members of the group are barred from some of them, some of them are too scared to fly, and rest want to holiday in Britain, Dammit!
    A team player is someone who does what I want to do.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We .
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    What was the "ideal lunch?"
    I can't remember all the details but it was so elaborate it made Ian Fleming's novel Bond look like the kind of guy who'd prefer to go out for a kebab in comparison.
    I think I'd vomit if I had to try and force my way through one of those 7 course State banquets they had in the 19th century, dressed in white tie and tails, each course served with its own wine, followed by port and brandy, in a room thick with cigar smoke.

    My ideal meal would consist of two courses.
    I think that was just Victoria's gluttony, which was inherited and expanded upon by the Prince of Wales.

    I do enjoy three courses, with a cocktail prior, wine during, and dessert wine/port thereafter with cheeses, but only occasionally.
    What has man if he is not able to have a decent sauternes with pudding?
  • TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    Who the hell says I could afford it. Clue is in the word "ideal". :smile:
    Not only do I reckon you could, but I am very much looking forward to being treated by you.
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    On food: as a child/teenager I had a mild aversion to food (and also was absent-minded, as now, which meant I sometimes forgot to eat dinner). As a result, I was about 6.5st when I was 14ish. Still seems odd not being able to see all my ribs.

    I cannot fathom how some people get so fat. I'm pretty idle, but the sheer effort required to cram your face full of food consistently seems enormous.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    Who the hell says I could afford it. Clue is in the word "ideal". :smile:
    Not only do I reckon you could, but I am very much looking forward to being treated by you.
    At some stage it will be my pleasure!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Any excuse for May keeping her thoughts to herself, she'll take.

    And here is the problem with that

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/938434127472324609

    There is no conceivable deal that keeps everyone onside. All she can do is keep kicking the can down the road and claim "I have been perfectly clear" every time questions are asked
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,764

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    .
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We .
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    What was the "ideal lunch?"
    I can't remember all the details but it was so elaborate it made Ian Fleming's novel Bond look like the kind of guy who'd prefer to go out for a kebab in comparison.
    I think I'd vomit if I had to try and force my way through one of those 7 course State banquets they had in the 19th century, dressed in white tie and tails, each course served with its own wine, followed by port and brandy, in a room thick with cigar smoke.

    My ideal meal would consist of two courses.
    I think that was just Victoria's gluttony, which was inherited and expanded upon by the Prince of Wales.

    I do enjoy three courses, with a cocktail prior, wine during, and dessert wine/port thereafter with cheeses, but only occasionally.
    Edward VII must have had a constitution like an ox, to reach the ripe old age (for his time) of 69.

    He started with a cooked breakfast (I don't mean bacon and eggs, although they were included, but chops, kidneys, sausages etc.).

    Elevenses followed, with cakes, biscuits etc.

    Then a big lunch, with lashings of wine and port.

    High Tea would include a variety of sandwiches, scones and cakes.

    Then on to a massive dinner, with more wine, brandy, and port.

    Then his valet would leave a cold chicken on his bedside table, in case he got peckish during the night. It was usually eaten.

    All accompanied by cocktails, Cuban cigars, and endless fornication.

  • BudG said:

    If you do not know where you want to go, how can you look at the map and decide which route to take?

    The EU 27 will not agree to what we ideally want - cake and eat it.

    So we have to wait and see what they will concede.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Off-topic:

    Saw this in my local supermarket, and it made me chuckle:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-42250212

    TBH it's probably the most interesting headline they've had for weeks ...
  • TOPPING said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I thinkany of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    Here we have it; wisdom from on high, generously bestowed upon us by one of our betters. We should graciously accept becoming a minority in our own neighbourhood, city and eventually country, because the people who don't bear the brunt of it get to feel self-righteous. Rich countries that have not opened their borders to culturally alien migrants (Japan, South Korea) are clearly disaster zones.

    hmm - I don't think it follows that this is a permanent change in our culture. But what is our culture? What about The Windrush? How about the Ugandan Asian crisis, the Jews, the Huguenots.

    No doubt you bemoan the corrupting of our fine English stock. But wait. When was it that the Kings of England started to speak English? Wasn't John known (amongst other things) for being the first King to actually stay in England? Wasn't that one of the reasons for Magna Carta that because he was here, because he didn't have foreign lands to plunder, he turned his attention to the barons and they didn't like it. I digress.

    Point is, what is our culture?

    Multi.
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    currystar said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    They absolutely don't get it. Nor do they care.

    I went round a housing association estate at the weekend, to drop off keys with my gas engineer. This is in a town in rural Hampshire.

    I saw several Polish cars with Polish numberplates. And the twain do not mix.

    It is a recipe for tension. The only solution they need is that the Government is listening and takes them seriously, and that the overall rate is controlled.
    There are large areas of Southampton which are dominated by people from Poland especially in parts of Shirley. The high street in Shirley is jam packed with Polish shops.
    My home town was full of Poles decades before we joined the EU. There was no tension then and there is no reason for tension now.
    I am not aware of any daily tension, its just some areas of Southampton are radically different to twenty years ago, and the communities do not mix.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    Who the hell says I could afford it. Clue is in the word "ideal". :smile:
    Not only do I reckon you could, but I am very much looking forward to being treated by you.
    At some stage it will be my pleasure!
    Delighted to hear it!

    I actually think I'd have a really good time with several sparring partners on here, including you, SouthamO and Jonathan.

    I've even warmed to ScottP recently. Real ale man, you see.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    TOPPING said:



    Don't worry, Tyndall is just suffering from Post-Victory Shrill Bitterness Syndrome. Remainers were cowards this morning even Navy types who didn't stick to port.

    Nope. This is nothing to do with Brexit. I detest Heseltine as a treacherous self serving scumbag who helped to bring down Thatcher, betrayed the Nottinghamshire miners and put his own ambition ahead of any loyalty to leader, party or country.

    Contrast with someone like Ken Clark who may be a terrible Remoaner but has always done his damndest to stay loyal to party and country.
    I think you ought to calm down a little. None of the things you mention lead him to deserve being called, treacherous, self-serving or a scumbag. And as ever, you need to look at the other side of the ledger as well.

    Was Heseltine perfect? Heck, no. Was he a good politician? Compare to the current generations such as Johnson, yes. We he good for the country? Certainly, IMO. Was he a patriot? Probably, yes.

    Heseltine had a view of the country that you might well agree with: one of the UK as a prosperous country, and one of regeneration. And he was willing to work beyond party lines to get what he thought was right.

    When it comes to Thatcher, the people who brought her down probably did both her and the country good. She was sadly past her best, and I doubt she'd have resisted the problems that the 'bastards' were to cause the party over the next decade any better than Major.
    Heseltine thought he had a right to the throne.

    Thatcher just got drunk on her own tonic.
    Many top politicians think they have a 'right' to the throne. You need look no further than Johnson or Brown. It doesn't make them a bad politician, or even a bad person, though the effects can be bad.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    TOPPING said:



    Point is, what is our culture?

    Football played at Wembley,
    Tennis at Wimbledon (C'mon Tim !),
    Horses at Ascot, Badminton and Cheltenham
    Music from Blake, through the Beatles to Iron Maiden & the Specials
    Country estates, country pubs, and Sheffield snooker clubs
    The big smoke, seaside towns all around the coast and our industrial cities.
    The Queen, the BBC and not to forget all of our fastidious MPs.

  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    .
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We .
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    What was the "ideal lunch?"
    I can't remember all the details but it was so elaborate it made Ian Fleming's novel Bond look like the kind of guy who'd prefer to go out for a kebab in comparison.
    I think I'd vomit if I had to try and force my way through one of those 7 course State banquets they had in the 19th century, dressed in white tie and tails, each course served with its own wine, followed by port and brandy, in a room thick with cigar smoke.

    My ideal meal would consist of two courses.
    I think that was just Victoria's gluttony, which was inherited and expanded upon by the Prince of Wales.

    I do enjoy three courses, with a cocktail prior, wine during, and dessert wine/port thereafter with cheeses, but only occasionally.
    Edward VII must have had a constitution like an ox, to reach the ripe old age (for his time) of 69.

    He started with a cooked breakfast (I don't mean bacon and eggs, although they were included, but chops, kidneys, sausages etc.).

    Elevenses followed, with cakes, biscuits etc.

    Then a big lunch, with lashings of wine and port.

    High Tea would include a variety of sandwiches, scones and cakes.

    Then on to a massive dinner, with more wine, brandy, and port.

    Then his valet would leave a cold chicken on his bedside table, in case he got peckish during the night. It was usually eaten.

    All accompanied by cocktails, Cuban cigars, and endless fornication.

    He's SeanT's hero.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    Who the hell says I could afford it. Clue is in the word "ideal". :smile:
    Not only do I reckon you could, but I am very much looking forward to being treated by you.
    At some stage it will be my pleasure!
    Delighted to hear it!

    I actually think I'd have a really good time with several sparring partners on here, including you, SouthamO and Jonathan.

    I've even warmed to ScottP recently. Real ale man, you see.
    The danger is that if we all end up best buddies then it might take some spice out of our exchanges.

    I would be distraught, for example, to find out upon meeting, that @HYUFD was an engaging, thoughtful, acute observer of modern life. :wink:
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.

    This is the Gus O'Donnell argument. I personally found it extraordinary that the highest British civil servant should have made it so explicitly: "I think it’s my job to maximise global welfare, not national welfare."

    There is a argument, but I think on balance it is one we should reject, in favour of putting the welfare of our own citizens (and those that have already come to live here under current arrangements) first.

    Additionally, the logic of this argument would drain developing countries of their best brains and entrepreneurs. On balance, the middle classes of both countries gain; the working classes of both countries lose.

    Of course, had I been born in Bucharest or Addis Ababa I'd probably be pretty keen to come to Western Europe. It doesn't follow that I would have a right to.
    Well the other side of that coin is that every Labour politician who bemoans the inequality of the UK should take a moment to ponder the inequality of the globe. To a $2 a day person in the LDCs an MP, for example, has untold and unimaginable riches.
    Of course. The reductio ad absurdum of the position is that we should be sending 70% of GDP as aid, not 0.7%, and that we should have truly open borders.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:



    Point is, what is our culture?

    Football played at Wembley,
    Tennis at Wimbledon (C'mon Tim !),
    Horses at Ascot, Badminton and Cheltenham
    Music from Blake, through the Beatles to Iron Maiden & the Specials
    Country estates, country pubs, and Sheffield snooker clubs
    The big smoke, seaside towns all around the coast and our industrial cities.
    The Queen, the BBC and not to forget all of our fastidious MPs.

    Full of foreigners don't know how you can stand it.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century. As the developing world catches up, as people around the globe aspire to a better standard of living, then there will be migration of peoples.

    We are the lucky ones, the lottery of life winners, and looked upon on a global scale, much as perhaps Jezza looks upon it on a local, national scale, then there is an argument for accepting that there will be a rebalance with those best off (ie us) losing out.
    I doubt if you are a loser.

    The losers see things differently.
    Not if Topping is serious about the "ideal lunch" he planned.

    I don't know anyone who could afford that.
    Who the hell says I could afford it. Clue is in the word "ideal". :smile:
    Not only do I reckon you could, but I am very much looking forward to being treated by you.
    At some stage it will be my pleasure!
    Delighted to hear it!

    I actually think I'd have a really good time with several sparring partners on here, including you, SouthamO and Jonathan.

    I've even warmed to ScottP recently. Real ale man, you see.
    The danger is that if we all end up best buddies then it might take some spice out of our exchanges.

    I would be distraught, for example, to find out upon meeting, that @HYUFD was an engaging, thoughtful, acute observer of modern life. :wink:
    Nah. I argue ferociously with all of them!
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,793
    Good afternoon, all.
    Well, I'm glad I didn't get up early to watch the cricket - that was a bit abject.
    The one saving grace is that at least the current side doesn't have to face the likes of Hayden, Ponting, Clarke, Gilchrist, Warne and McGrath. The carnage would be hideous.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    currystar said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I think people in much of the UK don't realise how much some working class communities have changed, and I say this as a second generation immigrant myself. It scares people in other working class communities that they will have the same thing happen to their estates. This cultural fear, combined with big changes to the labour market, put many lower income people in a state of perpetual worry, which causes them to be pessimistic and cynical about life and politics as a whole. That causes a lot of instability in politics and the inability to have reasoned debate. I genuinely think immigration is the reason sensible social democratic politics has collapsed in Europe, as many of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    They absolutely don't get it. Nor do they care.

    I went round a housing association estate at the weekend, to drop off keys with my gas engineer. This is in a town in rural Hampshire.

    I saw several Polish cars with Polish numberplates. And the twain do not mix.

    It is a recipe for tension. The only solution they need is that the Government is listening and takes them seriously, and that the overall rate is controlled.
    There are large areas of Southampton which are dominated by people from Poland especially in parts of Shirley. The high street in Shirley is jam packed with Polish shops.
    My home town was full of Poles decades before we joined the EU. There was no tension then and there is no reason for tension now.
    It's an odd choice of immigrant to get irate about.

    Christian, white, with a similar cultural and moral outlook, and a good work ethic. Maybe it's all about the latter...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:
    Looks like a very sensible deal after all the posturing.

    Now we just need a heavy from within the EU to explain the facts of life to the Taoiseach.
    Incidentally, how is this story a scoop?

    Wasn't there something on here about that c. 10 days ago???
    So long as you ignore certain Remaniacs and uber-Leavers, there is a great deal of wisdom and insight on this board.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    rcs1000 said:

    So long as you ignore certain Remaniacs and uber-Leavers, there is a great deal of wisdom and insight on this board.

    But you also get Radiohead...
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    TOPPING said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amongst Labour voters - and there are many - want is to stop immigration. Full stop. But this is not realistic, and leaving the EU will certainly not deliver it. Getting rid of FOM and replacing it with something that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I thinkany of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century

    hmm - I don't think it follows that this is a permanent change in our culture. But what is our culture? What about The Windrush? How about the Ugandan Asian crisis, the Jews, the Huguenots.

    No doubt you bemoan the corrupting of our fine English stock. But wait. When was it that the Kings of England started to speak English? Wasn't John known (amongst other things) for being the first King to actually stay in England? Wasn't that one of the reasons for Magna Carta that because he was here, because he didn't have foreign lands to plunder, he turned his attention to the barons and they didn't like it. I digress.

    Point is, what is our culture?
    Ah the Huguenots! No discussion of immigration would be complete without that distinguished but numerically immaterial group.

    Numbers matter. The immigration that the U.K. has experienced since 1997 has no historical precedent in terms of both absolute numbers and as a percentage of the population. As the immigrant proportion increases, the incentives to assimilate reduce, meaning that higher immigration will lead to further ghettoisation.

    I completely agree that culture is not static. It changes over time. However, it is blindingly obvious but seemingly unsayable that immigration from countries with more commonalities in terms of culture and language is easier to manage than those with large differences. The descendants of Caribbean migrants have assimilated almost totally; the Ultra-Orthodox Jews have not, despite arriving half a century earlier.

    There are growing parts of the country which are utterly alien to any form of recognisably British culture. Cultures are like families; hard to define, with fuzzy edges, but still real and meaningful.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Philip Hammond hints that UK may still pay exit bill even if there is no trade deal. “I find it inconceivable that we would walk away from obligations that we recognise as an obligation”

    Apart from pensions for Mandleson and the Kinnocks, there are no obligations. If there were, they’d be written in the Treaties.
    I think there is a single pension pot for MEPs and Eurocrats.

    Of course, if we took responsibility for all those pensions (for Brits), and then "aligned" them with the pensions we pay British civil servants and MPs, then we might save a considerable sum of money...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @estwebber: Lords spokesperson: The Sports & Social Club Bar is closed following an incident on the estate last night involving two parliamentary staff

    @matt_dathan: Breaking: A House of Commons staffer has been arrested after a fight in one of Parliament’s booziest bars left a man GLASSED in the face.
  • Mr. 1000, and charge income tax too.
  • Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:



    Point is, what is our culture?

    Football played at Wembley,
    Tennis at Wimbledon (C'mon Tim !),
    Horses at Ascot, Badminton and Cheltenham
    Music from Blake, through the Beatles to Iron Maiden & the Specials
    Country estates, country pubs, and Sheffield snooker clubs
    The big smoke, seaside towns all around the coast and our industrial cities.
    The Queen, the BBC and not to forget all of our fastidious MPs.

    I might have to quibble about some of the football being played at Wembley this year... another exciting night beckons for me tonight.... can't wait, oh no. absolutely can't.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited December 2017
    RoyalBlue said:

    TOPPING said:

    RoyalBlue said:



    hmm - I don't think it follows that this is a permanent change in our culture. But what is our culture? What about The Windrush? How about the Ugandan Asian crisis, the Jews, the Huguenots.

    No doubt you bemoan the corrupting of our fine English stock. But wait. When was it that the Kings of England started to speak English? Wasn't John known (amongst other things) for being the first King to actually stay in England? Wasn't that one of the reasons for Magna Carta that because he was here, because he didn't have foreign lands to plunder, he turned his attention to the barons and they didn't like it. I digress.

    Point is, what is our culture?
    Ah the Huguenots! No discussion of immigration would be complete without that distinguished but numerically immaterial group.

    Numbers matter. The immigration that the U.K. has experienced since 1997 has no historical precedent in terms of both absolute numbers and as a percentage of the population. As the immigrant proportion increases, the incentives to assimilate reduce, meaning that higher immigration will lead to further ghettoisation.

    I completely agree that culture is not static. It changes over time. However, it is blindingly obvious but seemingly unsayable that immigration from countries with more commonalities in terms of culture and language is easier to manage than those with large differences. The descendants of Caribbean migrants have assimilated almost totally; the Ultra-Orthodox Jews have not, despite arriving half a century earlier.

    There are growing parts of the country which are utterly alien to any form of recognisably British culture. Cultures are like families; hard to define, with fuzzy edges, but still real and meaningful.
    I think ultra-orthodox Jews are a special case. They are almost defined by their desire to isolate themselves from everyone else. They have largely separate communities even in Israel, and after 6 or 7 generations in NYC.

    I'm confident EU immigrants will assimilate perfectly well within a generation of arriving.
  • NEW THREAD

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766

    TOPPING said:



    Don't worry, Tyndall is just suffering from Post-Victory Shrill Bitterness Syndrome. Remainers were cowards this morning even Navy types who didn't stick to port.

    Nope. This is nothing to do with Brexit. I detest Heseltine as a treacherous self serving scumbag who helped to bring down Thatcher, betrayed the Nottinghamshire miners and put his own ambition ahead of any loyalty to leader, party or country.

    Contrast with someone like Ken Clark who may be a terrible Remoaner but has always done his damndest to stay loyal to party and country.
    Whatever you might say about Clarke and his Europhilia, I always admired him for taking on the white collar unions. Like Gove, he's willing to take on special interest groups. (I also thought a lot of the shit he got as Justice Secretary was completely undeserved.)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    RoyalBlue said:

    TOPPING said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    MaxPB said:

    RobD said:



    But you said the only reason Labour voters voted to leave was out of "a general sense of discontent and desire to kick the government". None of them wanted to end free movement? I find that hard to believe.

    Well I didn't say that - of course immigration is an issue. But in reality what the social conservatives amoomething that just reduces immigration by a few tens of thousands will make no difference to them. They will not notice any change.
    If the tens of thousands come from unskilled workers they will.
    Exactly right. I thinkany of our supporters have gone to the right or far left.
    That, my friend, is life in the 21st Century

    hmm - I don't think it follows that this is a permanent change in our culture. But what is our culture? What about The Windrush? How about the Ugandan Asian crisis, the Jews, the Huguenots.

    No doubt you bemoan the corrupting of our fine English stock. But wait. When was it that the Kings of England started to speak English? Wasn't John known (amongst other things) for being the first King to actually stay in England? Wasn't that one of the reasons for Magna Carta that because he was here, because he didn't have foreign lands to plunder, he turned his attention to the barons and they didn't like it. I digress.

    Point is, what is our culture?
    Ah the Huguenots! No discussion of immigration would be complete without that distinguished but numerically immaterial group.

    Numbers matter. The immigration that the U.K. has experienced since 1997 has no historical precedent in terms of both absolute numbers and as a percentage of the population. As the immigrant proportion increases, the incentives to assimilate reduce, meaning that higher immigration will lead to further ghettoisation.

    I completely agree that culture is not static. It changes over time. However, it is blindingly obvious but seemingly unsayable that immigration from countries with more commonalities in terms of culture and language is easier to manage than those with large differences. The descendants of Caribbean migrants have assimilated almost totally; the Ultra-Orthodox Jews have not, despite arriving half a century earlier.

    There are growing parts of the country which are utterly alien to any form of recognisably British culture. Cultures are like families; hard to define, with fuzzy edges, but still real and meaningful.
    I'm guessing that any Brexit-inspired reduction in immigration will not change those areas you deem unrecognisable.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited December 2017
    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Lords spokesperson: The Sports & Social Club Bar is closed following an incident on the estate last night involving two parliamentary staff

    @matt_dathan: Breaking: A House of Commons staffer has been arrested after a fight in one of Parliament’s booziest bars left a man GLASSED in the face.

    Men get drunk and have fight. Whoopee. If the "parliamentary staff" included Black Rod, or was a barney between the Eagle sisters, you might pique my interest!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Philip Hammond hints that UK may still pay exit bill even if there is no trade deal. “I find it inconceivable that we would walk away from obligations that we recognise as an obligation”

    Apart from pensions for Mandleson and the Kinnocks, there are no obligations. If there were, they’d be written in the Treaties.
    I think there is a single pension pot for MEPs and Eurocrats.

    Of course, if we took responsibility for all those pensions (for Brits), and then "aligned" them with the pensions we pay British civil servants and MPs, then we might save a considerable sum of money...
    Let me guess, defined benefits ^_~ ?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545
    Scott_P said:
    So am I.

    The Brexit that we voted for is undeliverable.

  • rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:



    Don't worry, Tyndall is just suffering from Post-Victory Shrill Bitterness Syndrome. Remainers were cowards this morning even Navy types who didn't stick to port.

    Nope. This is nothing to do with Brexit. I detest Heseltine as a treacherous self serving scumbag who helped to bring down Thatcher, betrayed the Nottinghamshire miners and put his own ambition ahead of any loyalty to leader, party or country.

    Contrast with someone like Ken Clark who may be a terrible Remoaner but has always done his damndest to stay loyal to party and country.
    Whatever you might say about Clarke and his Europhilia, I always admired him for taking on the white collar unions. Like Gove, he's willing to take on special interest groups. (I also thought a lot of the shit he got as Justice Secretary was completely undeserved.)
    Did you get my message by the way? Are you out of the way of the fires,?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Scott_P said:
    So am I.

    The Brexit that we voted for is undeliverable.

    Is it? Leaving the EU is quite easy. We just wait another 18 months.
  • Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Lords spokesperson: The Sports & Social Club Bar is closed following an incident on the estate last night involving two parliamentary staff

    @matt_dathan: Breaking: A House of Commons staffer has been arrested after a fight in one of Parliament’s booziest bars left a man GLASSED in the face.

    Men get drunk and have fight. Whoopee. If the "parliamentary staff" included Black Rod, or was a barney between the Eagle sisters, you might pique my interest!
    Gender equality please. 50% women.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Scott_P said:
    So am I.

    The Brexit that we voted for is undeliverable.

    Red White and Blue Brexit has been replaced by an unflushable brown whiffy one.

    The end of British prestige is not with a bang, but with repeated flushing...
This discussion has been closed.