I had this naïve idea that Leavers wanted a country that in due course could be united. Right now Leavers seem to be putting a crowbar in the nation's political faultline and pushing.
Evidently they want a divided and unhappy country to continue indefinitely.
If what is reported is correct - then this is surely the best possible deal at this stage from a Remainer perspective (absent the large bill I suppose)?
Leave supporters seem to think that they can move on from their atrocious behaviour and the nation will unite behind them. It won't.
Ah the huge issue that appears nowhere in polling of the wider public.
Which opinion poll would you think it would turn up in? At the general election, the Conservatives found themselves pummelled wherever Remain supporters gathered together in numbers. That will continue for the foreseeable future.
Good to see you acknowledging that the election result was not due to Corbyn, but due to Brexit. But the next election will not be until 2022, and by then Brexit will be done and dusted. Remember too that if Labour had not been led by a Brexiteer who failed to campaign for remain, Brexit would almost certainly not have happened.
You seem to think that Remain supporters are going to forget. This is a defining political experience for many. They feel that their birthright as enlightened Europeans has been stolen from them by malign clowns. They are not going to forgive easily and nothing that the madder Leavers have done since is making it more likely that they will.
You do not represent the mainstream Remainer movement. You represent the extremist wing that has the support of a tiny minority of Remainers. I would say you are the UKIP equivalent of Remain but in fact you are more like the BNP equivalent.
I'd say that Alistair Meeks articulates the view of a majority of people who went to / plan to go to university. A minority, but not an insignificant one.
I don't he articulates the views of the majority who went to university. So its a minority of a minority...
Equally I'm at a lose to understand how the typical leave voter had to quote Mr Meeks " atrocious behaviour". A vote was given and a result made. In many ways its the remoaners fighting a legitimate decision that have atrocious behaviour.
Ah, in that case I don't think it's a sweeping statement (which kind of implies it's a unfair statement) at all, but rather a reflection of the way things are. After all, the Conservatives did poorly with younger voters which doesn't suggest that they know very much about us or what we care about.
Sweeping statements don't have to be unfair. It was just funny the way you said this is what young people talk about, and what on earth do those Tories think they know about what young people talk about.
I had this naïve idea that Leavers wanted a country that in due course could be united. Right now Leavers seem to be putting a crowbar in the nation's political faultline and pushing.
Evidently they want a divided and unhappy country to continue indefinitely.
If what is reported is correct - then this is surely the best possible deal at this stage from a Remainer perspective (absent the large bill I suppose)?
Leave supporters seem to think that they can move on from their atrocious behaviour and the nation will unite behind them. It won't.
Ah the huge issue that appears nowhere in polling of the wider public.
Which opinion poll would you think it would turn up in? At the general election, the Conservatives found themselves pummelled wherever Remain supporters gathered together in numbers. That will continue for the foreseeable future.
Good to see you acknowledging that the election result was not due to Corbyn, but due to Brexit. But the next election will not be until 2022, and by then Brexit will be done and dusted. Remember too that if Labour had not been led by a Brexiteer who failed to campaign for remain, Brexit would almost certainly not have happened.
You seem to think that Remain supporters are going to forget. This is a defining political experience for many. They feel that their birthright as enlightened Europeans has been stolen from them by malign clowns. They are not going to forgive easily and nothing that the madder Leavers have done since is making it more likely that they will.
You do not represent the mainstream Remainer movement. You represent the extremist wing that has the support of a tiny minority of Remainers. I would say you are the UKIP equivalent of Remain but in fact you are more like the BNP equivalent.
I'd say that Alistair Meeks articulates the view of a majority of people who went to / plan to go to university. A minority, but not an insignificant one.
Ah, in that case I don't think it's a sweeping statement (which kind of implies it's a unfair statement) at all, but rather a reflection of the way things are. After all, the Conservatives did poorly with younger voters which doesn't suggest that they know very much about us or what we care about.
Sweeping statements don't have to be unfair. It was just funny the way you said this is what young people talk about, and what on earth do those Tories think they know about what young people talk about.
If they are moving towards a Canada-style FTA and nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, and TMay wants to show what an amazing deal we are going to get from the EU (or why leave?) then we will be under the ECJ yoke for the next seven years at least.
Who is this "we"? The ongoing ECJ remit is to be very limited.
But entertaining you admit to it having been a yoke.
Barely a day goes by without me raging at the ECJ and how it is interfering with my life. Almost unbearable.
Leave supporters seem to think that they can move on from their atrocious behaviour and the nation will unite behind them. It won't.
Ah the huge issue that appears nowhere in polling of the wider public.
Which opinion poll would you think it would turn up in? At the general election, the Conservatives found themselves pummelled wherever Remain supporters gathered together in numbers. That will continue for the foreseeable future.
Which wasn't in many places (and in many of those that it was, the seats were held by someone else anyway). Despite their best efforts to the contrary, Theresa May and her team still managed to just about win the election.
Indeed. The Tory share of the vote went up quite significantly at the election.
There was a truly bizarre program on Today yesterday from Canterbury where the nation was being told in all seriousness it was easier to come out as gay rather than Conservative and that the fact that 6% of University staff supported their policies was their fault for having such bad polices rather than any indication of bias. The fact that the Tory vote went up to a 25 year high and was higher than the vote for any other party was completely ignored. It was an alternative universe.
Coming out as a Tory member doesn't equal voting Tory, though, does it. Neither does the Tory vote share correspond to the Tories having good or even popular policies. Like the nature-film sound-man said to the cameraman as he put on his trainers - "I don't have to be a good runner; I just have to be better than you." The charm of FPTP means that the Tories can get millions of votes thanks to not looking as bad to a big swathe of society as Corbyn, just as Corbyn can get millions of votes against the Tories rather than for socialism (as per this: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/11/no-really-young-people-don-t-vote-labour-because-they-re-communist )
It may indeed be that the Tories gained votes out of sheer popularity and enthusing the populace by their policies, but even if so (and I will admit to profound doubt over it), we can never know either way. The votes to keep out Corbyn, for habit, for least-worst-probably-I'd-rather-vote-someone-else-but-they-can't-win, and so on weigh exactly the same as those for "yay, these policies are great"
I don't disagree with any of that but listening to the program yesterday you would have got the impression that the Tories were on the verge of extinction rather than in government having got more than 42% of the vote in an election this year.
If they are moving towards a Canada-style FTA and nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, and TMay wants to show what an amazing deal we are going to get from the EU (or why leave?) then we will be under the ECJ yoke for the next seven years at least.
Who is this "we"? The ongoing ECJ remit is to be very limited.
But entertaining you admit to it having been a yoke.
Barely a day goes by without me raging at the ECJ and how it is interfering with my life. Almost unbearable.
If it wasn't for the benefits of immigration, more people would surely see just how dangerous the ECJ is.
(1) existing single market rules that make *mutual sense* for both the UK and EU (e.g. agriculture, energy) will be aligned. Same friendly service but with a Union Jack.
(2) existing single market rules that we believe should be *interpreted* differently (but with same objective) will have equivalence. Some product and goods standards
(3) new regulatory rules for new technology, services and systems will have an exclusive UK angle, and be allowed to diverge.
In NI, the assembly and exec will review and decide to maintain alignment with Eire, as required.
Free visas for the under 30s in Europe for 2 years. Freeish movement for high skilled workers.
Brexit is a process. Something for everyone.
Federal Europe can do one.
Is free visas in Europe for us supposed to make us vote Tory? This reminds me of the railcard policy which literally no one cared about. The issue with the Tories for younger voters is cultural values + intergenerational unfairness for younger voters.
I spent part of yesterday suggesting to the Leavers that they have done sweet FA to persuade Remain voters that they are anything other than malign clowns. Unfortunately, they seem to feel the need for a safe space to protect them against such unkind suggestions rather than find a way to address them.
There's no point addressing them if the people who make such assertions are not open to reason. The outcome will be the outcome - whether its good or bad.
What we won't be, is part of the increasingly integrated EU federal project. The more they integrate, the more the difference will make itself clear.
I had this naïve idea that Leavers wanted a country that in due course could be united. Right now Leavers seem to be putting a crowbar in the nation's political faultline and pushing.
Evidently they want a divided and unhappy country to continue indefinitely.
Kind of the pot calling the kettle black there.
You're the one trying to push hard on fightlines, refight old battles and tarnish slightly over half the country for the malign actions of a tiny few.
It's an Express poll, and as such every bit as representative as their usual ones.
*innocent face*
It can't be a fully representative poll of their readership as voting required a computer and none of the Daily Express readers I've met used a computer.
(1. I 'm not speaking purely on my experience on young people but on a variety of factors including the GE result. Also, as someone who is young and is likely to be spending time with young people on a much more regular basis than someone who is older (obviously, they'll be exceptions - some people work with kids, but that's not the case for everyone) I do think I have more of a right, I'm sorry to say. (3. You can still talk about these issues without being interested in politics/voting re the voter-engagement point. For many these aren't political issues but just reflect the reality of life. (4. I don't regularly claim to understand Conservative voters nor their thought patterns. (5. Young voters drift towards the Tory party because the status quo in some way benefits them - they are able to buy a house, do well economically, etc. This time, many are unable to do that, which is why the Tory party has an issue with voters up to the age of 55.
If what is reported is correct - then this is surely the best possible deal at this stage from a Remainer perspective (absent the large bill I suppose)?
Leave supporters seem to think that they can move on from their atrocious behaviour and the nation will unite behind them. It won't.
Ah the huge issue that appears nowhere in polling of the wider public.
Which opinion poll would you think it would turn up in? At the general election, the Conservatives found themselves pummelled wherever Remain supporters gathered together in numbers. That will continue for the foreseeable future.
You seem to think that Remain supporters are going to forget. This is a defining political experience for many. They feel that their birthright as enlightened Europeans has been stolen from them by malign clowns. They are not going to forgive easily and nothing that the madder Leavers have done since is making it more likely that they will.
You do not represent the mainstream Remainer movement. You represent the extremist wing that has the support of a tiny minority of Remainers. I would say you are the UKIP equivalent of Remain but in fact you are more like the BNP equivalent.
I'd say that Alistair Meeks articulates the view of a majority of people who went to / plan to go to university. A minority, but not an insignificant one.
I don't he articulates the views of the majority who went to university. So its a minority of a minority...
I can only speak from personal experience, but I would say that Meeks represents pretty much ALL the people that I know who went to university (I only know 2 people who voted Brexit).
NONE of them did anything at all about Brexit, other than posting on facebook. No one lifted a finger to help the campaign (bar one person). Ever since last June, they have been furious about it. They feel that their idea of the UK has been stolen from them.
So, he is correct that for these people it is a political awakening. How representative they are of all people that go to University, I can only guess. But were there to be another referendum, I would guess that they would be much more active in campaigning.
It would be rather foolish to undermine or deny the division that the referendum has created.
(1) existing single market rules that make *mutual sense* for both the UK and EU (e.g. agriculture, energy) will be aligned. Same friendly service but with a Union Jack.
(2) existing single market rules that we believe should be *interpreted* differently (but with same objective) will have equivalence. Some product and goods standards
(3) new regulatory rules for new technology, services and systems will have an exclusive UK angle, and be allowed to diverge.
In NI, the assembly and exec will review and decide to maintain alignment with Eire, as required.
Free visas for the under 30s in Europe for 2 years. Freeish movement for high skilled workers.
Brexit is a process. Something for everyone.
Federal Europe can do one.
Is free visas in Europe for us supposed to make us vote Tory? This reminds me of the railcard policy which literally no one cared about. The issue with the Tories for younger voters is cultural values + intergenerational unfairness for younger voters.
I spent part of yesterday suggesting to the Leavers that they have done sweet FA to persuade Remain voters that they are anything other than malign clowns. Unfortunately, they seem to feel the need for a safe space to protect them against such unkind suggestions rather than find a way to address them.
There's no point addressing them if the people who make such assertions are not open to reason. The outcome will be the outcome - whether its good or bad.
What we won't be, is part of the increasingly integrated EU federal project. The more they integrate, the more the difference will make itself clear.
I had this naïve idea that Leavers wanted a country that in due course could be united. Right now Leavers seem to be putting a crowbar in the nation's political faultline and pushing.
Evidently they want a divided and unhappy country to continue indefinitely.
Kind of the pot calling the kettle black there.
You're the one trying to push hard on fightlines, refight old battles and tarnish slightly over half the country for the malign actions of a tiny few.
What are you doing for the cause of unity?
Mr Meeks has long since morphed into a sad Heath like figure sitting at the back sulking and dreaming of what might have been. I suspect he will be harping on about the same non issues in 20 years time when we have all long since moved on.
(1. I 'm not speaking purely on my experience on young people but on a variety of factors including the GE result. Also, as someone who is young and is likely to be spending time with young people on a much more regular basis than someone who is older (obviously, they'll be exceptions - some people work with kids, but that's not the case for everyone) I do think I have more of a right, I'm sorry to say. (3. You can still talk about these issues without being interested in politics/voting re the voter-engagement point. For many these aren't political issues but just reflect the reality of life. (4. I don't regularly claim to understand Conservative voters nor their thought patterns. (5. Young voters drift towards the Tory party because the status quo in some way benefits them - they are able to buy a house, do well economically, etc. This time, many are unable to do that, which is why the Tory party has an issue with voters up to the age of 55.
Sounds fairly sensible to me. There was a very funny (half intentionally) moment on R4 Today the other day when Conservative students said that coming out as a Conservative was far more difficult, socially, than coming out as gay, which a majority of the Conservative Students' Group was!
(1) existing single market rules that make *mutual sense* for both the UK and EU (e.g. agriculture, energy) will be aligned. Same friendly service but with a Union Jack.
(2) existing single market rules that we believe should be *interpreted* differently (but with same objective) will have equivalence. Some product and goods standards
(3) new regulatory rules for new technology, services and systems will have an exclusive UK angle, and be allowed to diverge.
In NI, the assembly and exec will review and decide to maintain alignment with Eire, as required.
Free visas for the under 30s in Europe for 2 years. Freeish movement for high skilled workers.
Brexit is a process. Something for everyone.
Federal Europe can do one.
Is free visas in Europe for us supposed to make us vote Tory? This reminds me of the railcard policy which literally no one cared about. The issue with the Tories for younger voters is cultural values + intergenerational unfairness for younger voters.
I spent part of yesterday suggesting to the Leavers that they have done sweet FA to persuade Remain voters that they are anything other than malign clowns. Unfortunately, they seem to feel the need for a safe space to protect them against such unkind suggestions rather than find a way to address them.
There's no point addressing them if the people who make such assertions are not open to reason. The outcome will be the outcome - whether its good or bad.
What we won't be, is part of the increasingly integrated EU federal project. The more they integrate, the more the difference will make itself clear.
I had this naïve idea that Leavers wanted a country that in due course could be united. Right now Leavers seem to be putting a crowbar in the nation's political faultline and pushing.
Evidently they want a divided and unhappy country to continue indefinitely.
Kind of the pot calling the kettle black there.
You're the one trying to push hard on fightlines, refight old battles and tarnish slightly over half the country for the malign actions of a tiny few.
What are you doing for the cause of unity?
Why on earth would I want to encourage unity with those who are utterly unrepentant about stirring up xenophobia with wicked lies?
It is, of course, a problem for those who want to make Brexit a success. Oddly, this is the group that seem most disinclined to consider how to address the problem.
It can't be a fully representative poll of their readership as voting required a computer and none of the Daily Express readers I've met used a computer.
I was about to make a similar comment, but you beat me to it.
It's here: ''Previously many were convinced that we are all going to be too busy playing Playstation to turn up at the polls.''
I thought the Playstation assertion was one people were taking issue with.
You frequently complain about others' sweeping statements. Amusingly often in posts where you're guilty of exactly the same.
No. I'm no going to prove it. I expect enough people have seen you at it that I don't feel the need.
Oh dear, I've touch a nerve. If my posts leave you in such distress you can avoiding read them, it's your choice. 'Enough people' have seen me at it? During my time there's only one other PBer who has spent his time complaining about my posts. I don't generally get much in thrown my way on a daily basis. If I was as much of a pariah as you imply, somehow I think I'd be getting attacked on a daily basis.
I frequently complain about others sweeping statements? I dispute that. I've said several times before it's natural to make generalizations about your political opponents.
What was Osborne saying about half competent Labour leaders?
The Lib Dem figure is incredible at this stage of the political process
The new yougov figures would give Tories 295 Labour 290 assuming UNS and Labour win 7 SNP seats
A 1% Labour lead implies a swing of 1.7% from the Tories since last June and - if uniform - would produce 25 Labour gains at their expense. 7 gains from the SNP - though I expect many more than that - would take Labour to 294.
The Daily Express won't be happy until we've towed the UK to the mid-Atlantic and nuked both Gerry and the Frogs.
I still don't understand the implications of the deal, but all the right people seem to be angry, and I'll triangulate off that fact and assume that it's not altogether unpalatable.
(1. I 'm not speaking purely on my experience on young people but on a variety of factors including the GE result. Also, as someone who is young and is likely to be spending time with young people on a much more regular basis than someone who is older (obviously, they'll be exceptions - some people work with kids, but that's not the case for everyone) I do think I have more of a right, I'm sorry to say. (3. You can still talk about these issues without being interested in politics/voting re the voter-engagement point. For many these aren't political issues but just reflect the reality of life. (4. I don't regularly claim to understand Conservative voters nor their thought patterns. (5. Young voters drift towards the Tory party because the status quo in some way benefits them - they are able to buy a house, do well economically, etc. This time, many are unable to do that, which is why the Tory party has an issue with voters up to the age of 55.
Sounds fairly sensible to me. There was a very funny (half intentionally) moment on R4 Today the other day when Conservative students said that coming out as a Conservative was far more difficult, socially, than coming out as gay, which a majority of the Conservative Students' Group was!
Yeah, I'd heard about that recently - DavidL literally brought it up a short while ago, and I posted a tweet about it (I got the impression he thought a leftie may have been saying it instead of a Tory student, so I posted Beth Rigby's tweet on it).
It's here: ''Previously many were convinced that we are all going to be too busy playing Playstation to turn up at the polls.''
I thought the Playstation assertion was one people were taking issue with.
You frequently complain about others' sweeping statements. Amusingly often in posts where you're guilty of exactly the same.
No. I'm no going to prove it. I expect enough people have seen you at it that I don't feel the need.
Oh dear, I've touch a nerve. If my posts leave you in such distress you can avoiding read them, it's your choice. 'Enough people' have seen me at it? During my time there's only one other PBer who has spent his time complaining about my posts. I don't generally get much in thrown my way on a daily basis. If I was as much of a pariah as you imply, somehow I think I'd be getting attacked on a daily basis.
I frequently complain about others sweeping statements? I dispute that. I've said several times before it's natural to make generalizations about your political opponents.
You don't distress me at all. I find you very amusing. I can tell most of your posts by their hysterical style, without needing to see your name. It can get a bit tedious when you get ultra defensive about what a poster's saying you said that he said that she said. But overall I think you're pretty good value for a young cultist's viewpoint. Keep it up x
The Daily Express won't be happy until we've towed the UK to the mid-Atlantic and nuked both Gerry and the Frogs.
I still don't understand the implications of the deal, but all the right people seem to be angry, and I'll triangulate off that fact and assume that it's not altogether unpalatable.
Why on earth would I want to encourage unity with those who are utterly unrepentant about stirring up xenophobia with wicked lies?
It is, of course, a problem for those who want to make Brexit a success. Oddly, this is the group that seem most disinclined to consider how to address the problem.
I don't see anyone here wanting to stir up xenophobia with wicked lies. When the wicked xenophobic posters like Farage's Breaking Point poster they were roundly condemned by all but the most extreme Kippers. Both here and in wider politics.
The Daily Express won't be happy until we've towed the UK to the mid-Atlantic and nuked both Gerry and the Frogs.
I still don't understand the implications of the deal, but all the right people seem to be angry, and I'll triangulate off that fact and assume that it's not altogether unpalatable.
Which Gerry!?
Your name is also going on ze list. My apologies to the Krauts for mispelling their epithet .
Regarding Ms Apocalypse, it's clear that the Tories have a problem with young voters. Only an idiot would deny it, and it's not going be fixed with gimmicks. Lest we forget, my generation received the greatest gift any poor young person can wish for; an incredibly high rate of inflation that trivialised our debts while impoverishing the loathsome oldies. This is unlikely to recur.
Why on earth would I want to encourage unity with those who are utterly unrepentant about stirring up xenophobia with wicked lies?
It is, of course, a problem for those who want to make Brexit a success. Oddly, this is the group that seem most disinclined to consider how to address the problem.
I don't see anyone here wanting to stir up xenophobia with wicked lies. When the wicked xenophobic posters like Farage's Breaking Point poster they were roundly condemned by all but the most extreme Kippers. Both here and in wider politics.
It's here: ''Previously many were convinced that we are all going to be too busy playing Playstation to turn up at the polls.''
I thought the Playstation assertion was one people were taking issue with.
You frequently complain about others' sweeping statements. Amusingly often in posts where you're guilty of exactly the same.
No. I'm no going to prove it. I expect enough people have seen you at it that I don't feel the need.
Oh dear, I've touch a nerve. If my posts leave you in such distress you can avoiding read them, it's your choice. 'Enough people' have seen me at it? During my time there's only one other PBer who has spent his time complaining about my posts. I don't generally get much in thrown my way on a daily basis. If I was as much of a pariah as you imply, somehow I think I'd be getting attacked on a daily basis.
I frequently complain about others sweeping statements? I dispute that. I've said several times before it's natural to make generalizations about your political opponents.
You don't distress me at all. I find you very amusing. I can tell most of your posts by their hysterical style, without needing to see your name. It can get a bit tedious when you get ultra defensive about what a poster's saying you said that he said that she said. But overall I think you're pretty good value for a young cultist's viewpoint. Keep it up x
I think the fact you had a rant at me tells me that you're rather triggered by my posts, which I apologise for. I can honestly say I don't mean to trigger you. Also, I think it's rather ironic that you would call anyone hysterical after you got prohibited from going on tangents about a certain case that's in the news. That's what I would say hysterical looks like.
Tedious? If you find it so tedious, don't read it.
Young cultist? What cult am I thrall in too? Pray tell? Since you're such the follower of my posts.
By the way, I don't find you amusing. Just a bit sad (which is one of the reasons why I don't want any of your kisses- ugh no 'x' please). If you're a Conservative - it may be people like you why you're side doesn't do so well among those of a certain age.
Why on earth would I want to encourage unity with those who are utterly unrepentant about stirring up xenophobia with wicked lies?
It is, of course, a problem for those who want to make Brexit a success. Oddly, this is the group that seem most disinclined to consider how to address the problem.
I don't see anyone here wanting to stir up xenophobia with wicked lies. When the wicked xenophobic posters like Farage's Breaking Point poster they were roundly condemned by all but the most extreme Kippers. Both here and in wider politics.
76 million Turks are not joining the EU.
A poster that gave you the opportunity to point out an EU lie!
Why on earth would I want to encourage unity with those who are utterly unrepentant about stirring up xenophobia with wicked lies?
It is, of course, a problem for those who want to make Brexit a success. Oddly, this is the group that seem most disinclined to consider how to address the problem.
I don't see anyone here wanting to stir up xenophobia with wicked lies. When the wicked xenophobic posters like Farage's Breaking Point poster they were roundly condemned by all but the most extreme Kippers. Both here and in wider politics.
76 million Turks are not joining the EU.
Well they are (were after 2017 I guess?) an accession country. Were all those talks just for a laugh, and the EU had no intention of actually letting them in?
Amusing how with the past few days we have moved from Remainers, Labour, the LDs and SNP moaning about Tory 'hard Brexit' to diehard Leavers and UKIP moaning about Tory capitulation to the EU, which suggests May has got it about right
It's here: ''Previously many were convinced that we are all going to be too busy playing Playstation to turn up at the polls.''
I thought the Playstation assertion was one people were taking issue with.
You frequently complain about others' sweeping statements. Amusingly often in posts where you're guilty of exactly the same.
No. I'm no going to prove it. I expect enough people have seen you at it that I don't feel the need.
Oh dear, I've touch a nerve. If my posts leave you in such distress you can avoiding read them, it's your choice. 'Enough people' have seen me at it? During my time there's only one other PBer who has spent his time complaining about my posts. I don't generally get much in thrown my way on a daily basis. If I was as much of a pariah as you imply, somehow I think I'd be getting attacked on a daily basis.
I frequently complain about others sweeping statements? I dispute that. I've said several times before it's natural to make generalizations about your political opponents.
You don't distress me at all. I find you very amusing. I can tell most of your posts by their hysterical style, without needing to see your name. It can get a bit tedious when you get ultra defensive about what a poster's saying you said that he said that she said. But overall I think you're pretty good value for a young cultist's viewpoint. Keep it up x
I think the fact you had a rant at me tells me that you're rather triggered by my posts, which I apologise for. I can honestly say I don't mean to trigger you. Also, I think it's rather ironic that you would call anyone hysterical after you got prohibited from going on tangents about a certain case that's in the news. That's what I would say hysterical looks like.
Tedious? If you find it so tedious, don't read it.
Young cultist? What cult am I thrall in too? Pray tell? Since you're such the follower of my posts.
By the way, I don't find you amusing. Just a bit sad. If you're a Conservative - it may be people like you why you're side doesn't do so well among those of a certain age.
Why on earth would I want to encourage unity with those who are utterly unrepentant about stirring up xenophobia with wicked lies?
It is, of course, a problem for those who want to make Brexit a success. Oddly, this is the group that seem most disinclined to consider how to address the problem.
I don't see anyone here wanting to stir up xenophobia with wicked lies. When the wicked xenophobic posters like Farage's Breaking Point poster they were roundly condemned by all but the most extreme Kippers. Both here and in wider politics.
76 million Turks are not joining the EU.
Well they are (were after 2017 I guess?) an accession country. Were all those talks just for a laugh, and the EU had no intention of actually letting them in?
Hope the new thread saves us from a rehash of this one...
What was Osborne saying about half competent Labour leaders?
The Lib Dem figure is incredible at this stage of the political process
The new yougov figures would give Tories 295 Labour 290 assuming UNS and Labour win 7 SNP seats
A 1% Labour lead implies a swing of 1.7% from the Tories since last June and - if uniform - would produce 25 Labour gains at their expense. 7 gains from the SNP - though I expect many more than that - would take Labour to 294.
Tories still largest party then. The swing was 1.5% ie Tories from 42% to 40% and Labour from 40% to 41%. 7 gains is what the latest Scottish Westminster poll projected and others have predicted fewer
What was Osborne saying about half competent Labour leaders?
The Lib Dem figure is incredible at this stage of the political process
The new yougov figures would give Tories 295 Labour 290 assuming UNS and Labour win 7 SNP seats
A 1% Labour lead implies a swing of 1.7% from the Tories since last June and - if uniform - would produce 25 Labour gains at their expense. 7 gains from the SNP - though I expect many more than that - would take Labour to 294.
So Tories still largest party then. 7 gains is what the latest Scottish Westminster poll projected and others have predicted fewer
But the sitting government tends to increase its share of the vote from mid term opinion polls, -in 2017 it went up by about 5 points - so that 1% lead would be wiped out at the general election
What was Osborne saying about half competent Labour leaders?
The Lib Dem figure is incredible at this stage of the political process
The new yougov figures would give Tories 295 Labour 290 assuming UNS and Labour win 7 SNP seats
A 1% Labour lead implies a swing of 1.7% from the Tories since last June and - if uniform - would produce 25 Labour gains at their expense. 7 gains from the SNP - though I expect many more than that - would take Labour to 294.
So Tories still largest party then. 7 gains is what the latest Scottish Westminster poll projected and others have predicted fewer
Well 25 Tory losses would bring them down to 293 - including Bercow. I would expect gains from the SNP to bring Labour to over 300 seats.
I'm baffled by the lack of understanding that (all being well) we are heading pretty much exactly where Theresa May said all along she wanted us to be. Contrary to the spin of some, she never said she wanted anything like a hard Brexit or 'no deal': what she always said she was aiming at was the UK out of the Single Market and Customs Union, and out of automatic FoM, but with a trade deal in place, with a sensible transition, with agreement to avoid cliff-edge disruption, and an end to 'excessive' payments to the EU. The last point is perhaps the one on which she's had to give way; we are paying a lot more that we should have done on a strict legal basis, but the political reality was that we were always going to, and overall the reparations don't look too bad.
Of course there are still some tough talks to come. The big remaining uncertainty is how much of a 'plus' there is going to be in the 'Canada-plus' relationship we are heading for. The car industry is probably going to get some deal to allow just-in-time manufacturing to continue, and almost certainly won't be hit by tariffs unless everything collapses. I think we'll come to some deal on agriculture - the UK is such an important market for countries like Spain and Holland. On financial services clearly there will be a hit, but given the importance of the City to EU businesses, hopefully there will be some fudge (it might involve regulatory alignment, however).
It's here: ''Previously many were convinced that we are all going to be too busy playing Playstation to turn up at the polls.''
I thought the Playstation assertion was one people were taking issue with.
You frequently complain about others' sweeping statements. Amusingly often in posts where you're guilty of exactly the same.
No. I'm no going to prove it. I expect enough people have seen you at it that I don't feel the need.
Oh dear, I've touch a nerve. If my posts leave you in such distress you can avoiding read them, it's your choice. 'Enough people' have seen me at it? During my time there's only one other PBer who has spent his time complaining about my posts. I don't generally get much in thrown my way on a daily basis. If I was as much of a pariah as you imply, somehow I think I'd be getting attacked on a daily basis.
I frequently complain about others sweeping statements? I dispute that. I've said several times before it's natural to make generalizations about your political opponents.
You don't distress me at all. I find you very amusing. I can tell most of your posts by their hysterical style, without needing to see your name. It can get a bit tedious when you get ultra defensive about what a poster's saying you said that he said that she said. But overall I think you're pretty good value for a young cultist's viewpoint. Keep it up x
I think the fact you had a rant at me tells me that you're rather triggered by my posts, which I apologise for. I can honestly say I don't mean to trigger you. Also, I think it's rather ironic that you would call anyone hysterical after you got prohibited from going on tangents about a certain case that's in the news. That's what I would say hysterical looks like.
Tedious? If you find it so tedious, don't read it.
Young cultist? What cult am I thrall in too? Pray tell? Since you're such the follower of my posts.
By the way, I don't find you amusing. Just a bit sad. If you're a Conservative - it may be people like you why you're side doesn't do so well among those of a certain age.
Sound like I'm enjoying PB a bit more than you.
Nope, I enjoying reading PB overall and many there are PBers who I get on very well with, and have great discussions with.
It sounds like you're not enjoying PB, after all can't you go around accusing foxinsoxuk of xyz anymore and all my posts have touch a nerve with you, and once again I apologise for that.
I'm interested btw, you didn't address my question.
Amusing how with the past few days we have moved from Remainers, Labour, the LDs and SNP moaning about Tory 'hard Brexit' to diehard Leavers and UKIP moaning about Tory capitulation to the EU, which suggests May has got it about right
I agree. I think she has. I don't know whether it is cleverness or an accident. It's probably like a complex physical system that wanders around all over the place but nevertheless ends up in the position of minimum energy and maximum stability without either a guiding hand or by accident.
I agree. I think she has. I don't know whether it is cleverness or an accident. It's probably like a complex physical system that wanders around all over the place but nevertheless ends up in the position of minimum energy and maximum stability without either a guiding hand or by accident.
Yes.
I don't see the 18 months since the vote as wasted time, as I'm fairly sure that we needed some time to blow off steam and let people have their say first in order to get us to where we might well have chosen to go in the first place. Politically moving immediately after the vote for a Canada Plus deal would have been difficult, but 18 months on it seems people have grown tired and are now happy to settle for this obviously reasonable goal.
What was Osborne saying about half competent Labour leaders?
The Lib Dem figure is incredible at this stage of the political process
The new yougov figures would give Tories 295 Labour 290 assuming UNS and Labour win 7 SNP seats
A 1% Labour lead implies a swing of 1.7% from the Tories since last June and - if uniform - would produce 25 Labour gains at their expense. 7 gains from the SNP - though I expect many more than that - would take Labour to 294.
So Tories still largest party then. 7 gains is what the latest Scottish Westminster poll projected and others have predicted fewer
But the sitting government tends to increase its share of the vote from mid term opinion polls, -in 2017 it went up by about 5 points - so that 1% lead would be wiped out at the general election
But mid-term does not begin a mere 6 months after the previous election! Moreover, we had barely reached mid term in the last Parliament !
What was Osborne saying about half competent Labour leaders?
The Lib Dem figure is incredible at this stage of the political process
The new yougov figures would give Tories 295 Labour 290 assuming UNS and Labour win 7 SNP seats
A 1% Labour lead implies a swing of 1.7% from the Tories since last June and - if uniform - would produce 25 Labour gains at their expense. 7 gains from the SNP - though I expect many more than that - would take Labour to 294.
So Tories still largest party then. 7 gains is what the latest Scottish Westminster poll projected and others have predicted fewer
Well 25 Tory losses would bring them down to 293 - including Bercow. I would expect gains from the SNP to bring Labour to over 300 seats.
You expect more gains from the SNP by Labour, Scottish polling does not predict them though
What was Osborne saying about half competent Labour leaders?
The Lib Dem figure is incredible at this stage of the political process
The new yougov figures would give Tories 295 Labour 290 assuming UNS and Labour win 7 SNP seats
A 1% Labour lead implies a swing of 1.7% from the Tories since last June and - if uniform - would produce 25 Labour gains at their expense. 7 gains from the SNP - though I expect many more than that - would take Labour to 294.
So Tories still largest party then. 7 gains is what the latest Scottish Westminster poll projected and others have predicted fewer
But the sitting government tends to increase its share of the vote from mid term opinion polls, -in 2017 it went up by about 5 points - so that 1% lead would be wiped out at the general election
What was Osborne saying about half competent Labour leaders?
The Lib Dem figure is incredible at this stage of the political process
The new yougov figures would give Tories 295 Labour 290 assuming UNS and Labour win 7 SNP seats
A 1% Labour lead implies a swing of 1.7% from the Tories since last June and - if uniform - would produce 25 Labour gains at their expense. 7 gains from the SNP - though I expect many more than that - would take Labour to 294.
So Tories still largest party then. 7 gains is what the latest Scottish Westminster poll projected and others have predicted fewer
Well 25 Tory losses would bring them down to 293 - including Bercow. I would expect gains from the SNP to bring Labour to over 300 seats.
You expect more gains from the SNP by Labour, Scottish polling does not predict that though
Indeed I am making a judgement re -Scotland as I did last June when I predicted 4 or 5 Labour MPs. I turned out to have been pessimistic - albeit less so than most others.
What was Osborne saying about half competent Labour leaders?
The Lib Dem figure is incredible at this stage of the political process
The new yougov figures would give Tories 295 Labour 290 assuming UNS and Labour win 7 SNP seats
A 1% Labour lead implies a swing of 1.7% from the Tories since last June and - if uniform - would produce 25 Labour gains at their expense. 7 gains from the SNP - though I expect many more than that - would take Labour to 294.
So Tories still largest party then. 7 gains is what the latest Scottish Westminster poll projected and others have predicted fewer
Well 25 Tory losses would bring them down to 293 - including Bercow. I would expect gains from the SNP to bring Labour to over 300 seats.
You expect more gains from the SNP by Labour, Scottish polling does not predict that though
Indeed I am making a judgement re -Scotland as I did last June when I predicted 4 or 5 Labour MPs. I turned out to have been pessimistic - albeit less so than most others.
The Tories of course did even better in Scotland compared to the Scottish polls than Labour did
Amusing how with the past few days we have moved from Remainers, Labour, the LDs and SNP moaning about Tory 'hard Brexit' to diehard Leavers and UKIP moaning about Tory capitulation to the EU, which suggests May has got it about right
I agree. I think she has. I don't know whether it is cleverness or an accident. It's probably like a complex physical system that wanders around all over the place but nevertheless ends up in the position of minimum energy and maximum stability without either a guiding hand or by accident.
Well by accident or design she has ended up in the right place
What was Osborne saying about half competent Labour leaders?
The Lib Dem figure is incredible at this stage of the political process
The new yougov figures would give Tories 295 Labour 290 assuming UNS and Labour win 7 SNP seats
A 1% Labour lead implies a swing of 1.7% from the Tories since last June and - if uniform - would produce 25 Labour gains at their expense. 7 gains from the SNP - though I expect many more than that - would take Labour to 294.
So Tories still largest party then. 7 gains is what the latest Scottish Westminster poll projected and others have predicted fewer
Well 25 Tory losses would bring them down to 293 - including Bercow. I would expect gains from the SNP to bring Labour to over 300 seats.
You expect more gains from the SNP by Labour, Scottish polling does not predict that though
Indeed I am making a judgement re -Scotland as I did last June when I predicted 4 or 5 Labour MPs. I turned out to have been pessimistic - albeit less so than most others.
The Tories of course did even better in Scotland compared to the Scottish polls than Labour did
Not so actually. The Tories matched expectations there in vote share and slightly exceeded them in terms of seats. Labour managed to exceed expectations in terms of both. In contrast, the SNP underperformed re- seats and vote share. I expect them to do so again.
And today: 'If the UK wants a transition period beyond 31 December 2020, when the current seven-year EU budget ends, it will have to pay more.
This is hardly a revelation. The transition period is a restricted form of membership, for which we pay about 10bn euros/year atm. It was never going to be free.
That's what I'm saying. The EU line was always '40 billion euros, then we'll talk about the cost of perks'. That's what was agreed today to the letter. May hasn't achieved anything more than the EU position as it has been since the summer.
Comments
Equally I'm at a lose to understand how the typical leave voter had to quote Mr Meeks " atrocious behaviour". A vote was given and a result made. In many ways its the remoaners fighting a legitimate decision that have atrocious behaviour.
No. I'm no going to prove it. I expect enough people have seen you at it that I don't feel the need.
https://twitter.com/josephmdurso/status/939137876637487110
*innocent face*
thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/britain-advances-to-phase-two-of-being-absolutely-shafted-20171208140566
You're the one trying to push hard on fightlines, refight old battles and tarnish slightly over half the country for the malign actions of a tiny few.
What are you doing for the cause of unity?
Sorry, I don't agree.
(1. I 'm not speaking purely on my experience on young people but on a variety of factors including the GE result. Also, as someone who is young and is likely to be spending time with young people on a much more regular basis than someone who is older (obviously, they'll be exceptions - some people work with kids, but that's not the case for everyone) I do think I have more of a right, I'm sorry to say.
(3. You can still talk about these issues without being interested in politics/voting re the voter-engagement point. For many these aren't political issues but just reflect the reality of life.
(4. I don't regularly claim to understand Conservative voters nor their thought patterns.
(5. Young voters drift towards the Tory party because the status quo in some way benefits them - they are able to buy a house, do well economically, etc. This time, many are unable to do that, which is why the Tory party has an issue with voters up to the age of 55.
NONE of them did anything at all about Brexit, other than posting on facebook. No one lifted a finger to help the campaign (bar one person). Ever since last June, they have been furious about it. They feel that their idea of the UK has been stolen from them.
So, he is correct that for these people it is a political awakening. How representative they are of all people that go to University, I can only guess. But were there to be another referendum, I would guess that they would be much more active in campaigning.
It would be rather foolish to undermine or deny the division that the referendum has created.
It is, of course, a problem for those who want to make Brexit a success. Oddly, this is the group that seem most disinclined to consider how to address the problem.
I frequently complain about others sweeping statements? I dispute that. I've said several times before it's natural to make generalizations about your political opponents.
I still don't understand the implications of the deal, but all the right people seem to be angry, and I'll triangulate off that fact and assume that it's not altogether unpalatable.
Regarding Ms Apocalypse, it's clear that the Tories have a problem with young voters. Only an idiot would deny it, and it's not going be fixed with gimmicks. Lest we forget, my generation received the greatest gift any poor young person can wish for; an incredibly high rate of inflation that trivialised our debts while impoverishing the loathsome oldies. This is unlikely to recur.
Tedious? If you find it so tedious, don't read it.
Young cultist? What cult am I thrall in too? Pray tell? Since you're such the follower of my posts.
By the way, I don't find you amusing. Just a bit sad (which is one of the reasons why I don't want any of your kisses- ugh no 'x' please). If you're a Conservative - it may be people like you why you're side doesn't do so well among those of a certain age.
Of course there are still some tough talks to come. The big remaining uncertainty is how much of a 'plus' there is going to be in the 'Canada-plus' relationship we are heading for. The car industry is probably going to get some deal to allow just-in-time manufacturing to continue, and almost certainly won't be hit by tariffs unless everything collapses. I think we'll come to some deal on agriculture - the UK is such an important market for countries like Spain and Holland. On financial services clearly there will be a hit, but given the importance of the City to EU businesses, hopefully there will be some fudge (it might involve regulatory alignment, however).
It sounds like you're not enjoying PB, after all can't you go around accusing foxinsoxuk of xyz anymore and all my posts have touch a nerve with you, and once again I apologise for that.
I'm interested btw, you didn't address my question.
I don't see the 18 months since the vote as wasted time, as I'm fairly sure that we needed some time to blow off steam and let people have their say first in order to get us to where we might well have chosen to go in the first place. Politically moving immediately after the vote for a Canada Plus deal would have been difficult, but 18 months on it seems people have grown tired and are now happy to settle for this obviously reasonable goal.