Dear me. This assumption that all Europeans are enlightened and the British are not is a tad tiresome.
You are completely misinterpreting the sentiment.
Brexit, and the outpouring of arrogant swagger it has unleashed in some, is reason enough to make people feel embarrassed about the direction their country is heading in. It's not borne of some pathetic cultural cringe, but naked anger at the ringleaders whose deluded nationalist fantasies have projected an image of a Britain that is suffering from a profound identity crisis and has lost its bearings in the world.
I think the only people who have lost their bearings are you and Mr Meeks. Clearly the developments today have shaken you to your core as you see your EU dream slipping away.
Farage has been touring the studios today. Surely no one apart from the serious headbangers think he's a good advocate for the Brexiteers. It could be the BBC being mischievous but more likely there aren't any sensible leavers with the courage of their convictions.
To be fair, he's more restrained than Arron Banks:
Only 20 seconds in, but Channel 4 News already trying to make the worst of the deal...
And you are surprised by this?
Channel 4 executives must be keen as mustard to relocate to the 2021 City of Culture, Coventry.
Parts around Coventry are great. It has a superb Transport Museum. The city though is a testament to the influence of overpowerul architects and urban planners. It’s barren 1950s and 1960s modernism come brutalist. Badly built and aesthetically disappointing.
1939 would have seen a very different, and honestly, significantly more interesting, city.
I know it's lovely around Cov. It's more about the poor old Channel 4 executives having to move from Islington that'll upset them.
Maybe they will just take the BBC’s approach. Not move. It is only what 90 mins to cov on the train.
Yes, to Leicestershire and Nottinghamshire as well. Which says much about horizontal and vertical transport links in the Midlands.
I think remoaners should stop conflating those who voted leave with Nigel Farage. Please recall that many many people across the political spectrum opposed British membership of the EU, including the late Tony Benn, and his disciples Jeremy Corbyn (who voted against every EU treaty in the Commons for 30 years), Dennis Skinner who voted leave, Liberals like John Cleese, moderate Labour MPs like Frank Field.
At the time of the Brexit referendum there were folk on here saying whatever you think of Nige, he'd had a huge influence on a winning Leave vote, he was probably the most significant UK pol of the last 15 years etc. Though they would all prefer to forget that now, I don't see why I should.
You have very selective memory. A typical Lefty trait I am afraid.
There were also plenty of us who said that although he had undoubtedly been important in actually winning the right to vote in the first place, once that had been provided he was nothing but a liability and the best thing he could do for Leave was to sit in a cupboard for the campaign.. or preferably for ever more.
I must admit that, even as a centrist remainer dad I like Farage and don't find him threatening in any way. I am sympathetic to some of his ideas, and agree with a few of the things he says.
But it isn't him. It isn't even the people in UKIP, I admire their eccentricity. It is the nationalist wave that they are riding that I have a problem with.
I think remoaners should stop conflating those who voted leave with Nigel Farage. Please recall that many many people across the political spectrum opposed British membership of the EU, including the late Tony Benn, and his disciples Jeremy Corbyn (who voted against every EU treaty in the Commons for 30 years), Dennis Skinner who voted leave, Liberals like John Cleese, moderate Labour MPs like Frank Field.
At the time of the Brexit referendum there were folk on here saying whatever you think of Nige, he'd had a huge influence on a winning Leave vote, he was probably the most significant UK pol of the last 15 years etc. Though they would all prefer to forget that now, I don't see why I should.
Well, I think I said that, and I think I put him joint first with Salmond, A. And if I were nominating significant politicians of the 20th century Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot would be in there. It isn't a value judgment.
Fair play for admitting it, but I was thinking about the more enthusiastic leavers.
'Our perfectly sensible and right-thinking proposition X happened to be supported & made to happen by racist, xenophobic total shit Y, but let's forget about Y now' is of course understandable, if not admirable.
His personal view is to leave the single market whilst not being that bothered about freedom of movement but he knows lots of Labour Leave voters are bothered about freedom of movement.
I do love watching Labour supporters trying to paint Corbyn as a staunch fan of the EU.
Corbyn is not a staunch fan, or an uninterested one. He is more a pragmatist, what works, works, what doesn't needs more work or gets ditched. What Tmay is doing, is trying to preserve the hegemony of the Tories, and time after time, is making herself look more ridiculous.
And we are supposed to believe that the man who has never changed his mind on anything in 30 years or more has changed his mind on this one particular issue - in spite of the fact that his every action shows that he has not. Or was it some other Labour leader whipping his MPs to vote to end membership of the Single Market and Customs Union?
Dear me. This assumption that all Europeans are enlightened and the British are not is a tad tiresome.
You are completely misinterpreting the sentiment.
Brexit, and the outpouring of arrogant swagger it has unleashed in some, is reason enough to make people feel embarrassed about the direction their country is heading in. It's not borne of some pathetic cultural cringe, but naked anger at the ringleaders whose deluded nationalist fantasies have projected an image of a Britain that is suffering from a profound identity crisis and has lost its bearings in the world.
I dislike the arrogant swagger of those who think Brexit is the British Empire Mark 2. But that does not mean that Europeans are de facto enlightened by comparison. There is plenty of ignorant arrogant swagger on the other side of the Channel and it would be more intelligent if people understood that rather than seeing all the wrong on one side and all the good on the other, whichever side of the referendum one has been on.
On topic, a little bit of stabilisation should occur because the Government is being seen to be making progress, and the risk of an ultra-hard Brexit has been averted, for now.
I would have though the right/wrong numbers would only start to move (and let's bear in mind the movements are pretty tiny anyway) once the full shape of the deal and future trading framework becomes clear, and is ratified.
I'd then expect HMG to make some meaningful popular moves off the back of it.
I think remoaners should stop conflating those who voted leave with Nigel Farage. Please recall that many many people across the political spectrum opposed British membership of the EU, including the late Tony Benn, and his disciples Jeremy Corbyn (who voted against every EU treaty in the Commons for 30 years), Dennis Skinner who voted leave, Liberals like John Cleese, moderate Labour MPs like Frank Field.
At the time of the Brexit referendum there were folk on here saying whatever you think of Nige, he'd had a huge influence on a winning Leave vote, he was probably the most significant UK pol of the last 15 years etc. Though they would all prefer to forget that now, I don't see why I should.
Well, I think I said that, and I think I put him joint first with Salmond, A. And if I were nominating significant politicians of the 20th century Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot would be in there. It isn't a value judgment.
Fair play for admitting it, but I was thinking about the more enthusiastic leavers.
'Our perfectly sensible and right-thinking proposition X happened to be supported & made to happen by racist, xenophobic total shit Y, but let's forget about Y now' is of course understandable, if not admirable.
Armchair Lenins seem to think they get to decree who plays the role of the useful idiot in their schemes to remake the world.
I think remoaners should stop conflating those who voted leave with Nigel Farage. Please recall that many many people across the political spectrum opposed British membership of the EU, including the late Tony Benn, and his disciples Jeremy Corbyn (who voted against every EU treaty in the Commons for 30 years), Dennis Skinner who voted leave, Liberals like John Cleese, moderate Labour MPs like Frank Field.
At the time of the Brexit referendum there were folk on here saying whatever you think of Nige, he'd had a huge influence on a winning Leave vote, he was probably the most significant UK pol of the last 15 years etc. Though they would all prefer to forget that now, I don't see why I should.
You have very selective memory. A typical Lefty trait I am afraid.
There were also plenty of us who said that although he had undoubtedly been important in actually winning the right to vote in the first place, once that had been provided he was nothing but a liability and the best thing he could do for Leave was to sit in a cupboard for the campaign.. or preferably for ever more.
I must admit that, even as a centrist remainer dad I like Farage and don't find him threatening in any way. I am sympathetic to some of his ideas, and agree with a few of the things he says.
But it isn't him. It isn't even the people in UKIP, I admire their eccentricity. It is the nationalist wave that they are riding that I have a problem with.
As a confirmed and almost life long Eurosceptic I really can't bring myself to admire Farage. He did serve a very useful function in getting the referendum but I do think he has also done a lot of harm and he made a mockery of the main anti-EU party through his dictatorial tendencies.
Reading your earlier posting by the way I was also a fan of Flexit.
On topic, a little bit of stabilisation should occur because the Government is being seen to be making progress, and the risk of an ultra-hard Brexit has been averted, for now.
I would have though the right/wrong numbers would only start to move (and let's bear in mind the movements are pretty tiny anyway) once the full shape of the deal and future trading framework becomes clear, and is ratified.
I'd then expect HMG to make some meaningful popular moves off the back of it.
It is going to be a rollercoaster for the next couple of years. The situation looks like it is under control for the moment, but that can quickly fall apart.
His personal view is to leave the single market whilst not being that bothered about freedom of movement but he knows lots of Labour Leave voters are bothered about freedom of movement.
I do love watching Labour supporters trying to paint Corbyn as a staunch fan of the EU.
Corbyn is not a staunch fan, or an uninterested one. He is more a pragmatist, what works, works, what doesn't needs more work or gets ditched. What Tmay is doing, is trying to preserve the hegemony of the Tories, and time after time, is making herself look more ridiculous.
And we are supposed to believe that the man who has never changed his mind on anything in 30 years or more has changed his mind on this one particular issue - in spite of the fact that his every action shows that he has not. Or was it some other Labour leader whipping his MPs to vote to end membership of the Single Market and Customs Union?
How can one’s opinions not change over 30 years unless one is, honestly, a dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences. I look back over the development of my views over time as experience (school, university, work with overseas, work overseas etc) shapes and changes them. They’ve all influenced me, whether lightly or firmly. Social and economic views have become more nuanced, more and less accommodating over time. If they don’t, one’s stopped learning. How dull that would be.
His personal view is to leave the single market whilst not being that bothered about freedom of movement but he knows lots of Labour Leave voters are bothered about freedom of movement.
I do love watching Labour supporters trying to paint Corbyn as a staunch fan of the EU.
Corbyn is not a staunch fan, or an uninterested one. He is more a pragmatist, what works, works, what doesn't needs more work or gets ditched. What Tmay is doing, is trying to preserve the hegemony of the Tories, and time after time, is making herself look more ridiculous.
And we are supposed to believe that the man who has never changed his mind on anything in 30 years or more has changed his mind on this one particular issue - in spite of the fact that his every action shows that he has not. Or was it some other Labour leader whipping his MPs to vote to end membership of the Single Market and Customs Union?
How can one’s opinions not change over 30 years unless one is, honestly, a dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences. I look back over the development of my views over time as experience (school, university, work with overseas, work overseas etc) shapes and changes them. They’ve all influenced me, whether lightly or firmly. Social and economic views have become more nuanced, more and less accommodating over time. If they don’t, one’s stopped learning. How dull that would be.
Oh I agree, but I think your comment on "dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences" might sum up Corbyn perfectly.
He does seem to have made a virtue out of never ever changing his mind.
Remember this is the man who divorced his wife rather than agree with her letting their son go to a better school.
Useful, thank you. Seems like some wins for us, more for the EU, and there's plenty of potential for people to blow up and crash everything in the coming months.
If you hovver over the dots, there's quite a few wins for the UK there, actually.
A lot will come down to what parts of the single market/customs alignment parts fall into the alignment, equivalence and divergence categories.
The EU will probably want 80-90% of them in the first. The UK probably 20-30%. We will end up with about 50-60%, with scope for future divergence. Brexit is a process.
And I expect I'll get royally bored saying this over the next year.
Only 20 seconds in, but Channel 4 News already trying to make the worst of the deal...
Jeez, you still peddling this line (lie) that as demolished on a previous thread?
It wasn't demolished at all. Remember that the current situation is 40 billion euros, plus further costs for the transition deal and other aspects of the 'divorce bill not covered by this deal. This is a 40 billion euros minimum, to rise depending on further negotiations.
September: 'Germany’s Angela Merkel has been told by the British government to expect Theresa May this week to offer to fill a post-Brexit EU budget hole of at least €20bn, the first attempt by London to meet European demands to settle its divorce bill.'
October: 'May has already agreed to pay Britain's full contributions to the latest budget round, amounting to some €20 billion, or $24 billion.
That figure, however, was dismissed this week by the president of the European Parliament ... with Germany and other countries refusing to allow talks on a future trade deal to start until Britain signalled it would agree to pay at least double the amount.
Though the UK has made no official commitment to pay the extra money, the prime minister has reportedly privately assured EU leaders that Britain will ultimately agree to pay up once talks progress onto trade.'
November: 'reports Britain was preparing to double its exit offer to £38 billion in order to get the EU to agree to open crucial trade discussions in December. ...
However, it is believed no exact figure has been set, and the extra funding would only be on the table in exchange for fast-tracked talks on post-Brexit trade arrangements, and the framework for a two-year transitional deal after formal withdrawal in March 2019.'
And the EU response: “This €40 billion could make sense only if it’s a first step with an openness to discuss further [financial] commitments,” said a diplomat from a small EU country. “It could be enough to say, OK we are ready to move to phase 2, but only if it’s not the final figure.”
December: 40 billion, not including a two year transitional framework, and before the talks have progressed onto trade.
So: May offers 20 billion inclusive of any transitional deal etc. EU says 'double it, for a start'. May offers 40 billion, inclusive of any transitional deal etc. EU rejects it. Current deal: 40 billion, plus whatever is decided on for the transitional period added on later. Exactly what the EU's public position was months ago.
Useful, thank you. Seems like some wins for us, more for the EU, and there's plenty of potential for people to blow up and crash everything in the coming months.
If you hovver over the dots, there's quite a few wins for the UK there, actually.
A lot will come down to what parts of the single market/customs alignment parts fall into the alignment, equivalence and divergence categories.
The EU will probably want 80-90% of them in the first. The UK probably 20-30%. We will end up with about 50-60%, with scope for future divergence. Brexit is a process.
And I expect I'll get royally bored saying this over the next year.
That really is an excellent resource and the annotations seem a very good interpretation of what has been agreed.
Oh don't be too sure. There was that farmer story a few years back - something to do with the federal government taking over land which the guy's family had used for grazing rights for decades - where he said he wondered if some people had been better off as slaves. While of course making it clear he was not a racist, oh nossir, he wanted the best for everyone. He just wondered if for some people, that was slavery.
Useful, thank you. Seems like some wins for us, more for the EU, and there's plenty of potential for people to blow up and crash everything in the coming months.
If you hovver over the dots, there's quite a few wins for the UK there, actually.
A lot will come down to what parts of the single market/customs alignment parts fall into the alignment, equivalence and divergence categories.
The EU will probably want 80-90% of them in the first. The UK probably 20-30%. We will end up with about 50-60%, with scope for future divergence. Brexit is a process.
And I expect I'll get royally bored saying this over the next year.
I did hover over the dots - hence thinking we did get some wins.
Oh don't be too sure. There was that farmer story a few years back - something to do with the federal government taking over land which the guy's family had used for grazing rights for decades - where he said he wondered if some people had been better off as slaves. While of course making it clear he was not a racist, oh nossir, he wanted the best for everyone. He just wondered if for some people, that was slavery.
Some people are just an absolute mess. There is literally no words for that guy and Roy Moore....
His personal view is to leave the single market whilst not being that bothered about freedom of movement but he knows lots of Labour Leave voters are bothered about freedom of movement.
I do love watching Labour supporters trying to paint Corbyn as a staunch fan of the EU.
Corbyn is not a staunch fan, or an uninterested one. He is more a pragmatist, what works, works, what doesn't needs more work or gets ditched. What Tmay is doing, is trying to preserve the hegemony of the Tories, and time after time, is making herself look more ridiculous.
And we are supposed to believe that the man who has never changed his mind on anything in 30 years or more has changed his mind on this one particular issue - in spite of the fact that his every action shows that he has not. Or was it some other Labour leader whipping his MPs to vote to end membership of the Single Market and Customs Union?
How can one’s opinions not change over 30 years unless one is, honestly, a dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences. I look back over the development of my views over time as experience (school, university, work with overseas, work overseas etc) shapes and changes them. They’ve all influenced me, whether lightly or firmly. Social and economic views have become more nuanced, more and less accommodating over time. If they don’t, one’s stopped learning. How dull that would be.
You got it in your first sentence there JC is "a dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences."
His personal view is to leave the single market whilst not being that bothered about freedom of movement but he knows lots of Labour Leave voters are bothered about freedom of movement.
I do love watching Labour supporters trying to paint Corbyn as a staunch fan of the EU.
Corbyn is not a staunch fan, or an uninterested one. He is more a pragmatist, what works, works, what doesn't needs more work or gets ditched. What Tmay is doing, is trying to preserve the hegemony of the Tories, and time after time, is making herself look more ridiculous.
And we are supposed to believe that the man who has never changed his mind on anything in 30 years or more has changed his mind on this one particular issue - in spite of the fact that his every action shows that he has not. Or was it some other Labour leader whipping his MPs to vote to end membership of the Single Market and Customs Union?
How can one’s opinions not change over 30 years unless one is, honestly, a dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences. I look back over the development of my views over time as experience (school, university, work with overseas, work overseas etc) shapes and changes them. They’ve all influenced me, whether lightly or firmly. Social and economic views have become more nuanced, more and less accommodating over time. If they don’t, one’s stopped learning. How dull that would be.
You got it in your first sentence there JC is "a dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences."
And you Felix, are thick as a non existent knot hole in a plank of wood....
His personal view is to leave the single market whilst not being that bothered about freedom of movement but he knows lots of Labour Leave voters are bothered about freedom of movement.
I do love watching Labour supporters trying to paint Corbyn as a staunch fan of the EU.
Corbyn is not a staunch fan, or an uninterested one. He is more a pragmatist, what works, works, what doesn't needs more work or gets ditched. What Tmay is doing, is trying to preserve the hegemony of the Tories, and time after time, is making herself look more ridiculous.
And we are supposed to believe that the man who has never changed his mind on anything in 30 years or more has changed his mind on this one particular issue - in spite of the fact that his every action shows that he has not. Or was it some other Labour leader whipping his MPs to vote to end membership of the Single Market and Customs Union?
How can one’s opinions not change over 30 years unless one is, honestly, a dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences. I look back over the development of my views over time as experience (school, university, work with overseas, work overseas etc) shapes and changes them. They’ve all influenced me, whether lightly or firmly. Social and economic views have become more nuanced, more and less accommodating over time. If they don’t, one’s stopped learning. How dull that would be.
You got it in your first sentence there JC is "a dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences."
And you Felix, are thick as a non existent knot hole in a plank of wood....
Oh so Corbyn is a pragmatist now is he? For months we have been told that he is a man of principle, but now he is a pragmatist. The truth is that Corbyn is a fool.
160 years ago families may have cared for one another enough to prevent shitstain politicians raping and abusing their kids.
I don't think that's true. We assume that the society we live in and its mores are eternal and universal, but it isn't. Even a short time ago (say, the lifetime of your grandparents) life was very different and much worse. I am sure that the love of parents for their children (and oftentimes its lack) is a human constant, but parents' capacity to defend and care for their children was in the past far less than it was. And for slaves it was zero by definition.
I personally will be sorry to lose FoM. I am one of the few on here who thinks Britain was right, generous and moral in letting in Poles, Latvians and others from Eastern Europe by contrast with the oh so enlightened French and Germans. But I do not, as some appear to do, assume that those who want their country to determine who is or is not let into the country are ipso facto racist fascists or worse.
+1
It may in hindsight have been politically unwise but was clearly “the right thing to do” in particular for the Poles given our respective records in WWII. Long may those who have come here enjoy the freedom their forefathers fought so valiantly for.
Those sneering at the people who took a different point of view to their enlightened (sic) selves in the referendum need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Their behaviour says far more about them than those they criticise.
Useful, thank you. Seems like some wins for us, more for the EU, and there's plenty of potential for people to blow up and crash everything in the coming months.
On the CJEU: A big victory for Euroskeptics — if they can see beyond the delay. U.K. courts will decide whether or not to ask the ECJ for guidance on matters of EU law and are not explicitly bound to follow the guidance (although skeptics say there would be an immediate legal challenge should they ignore their fellow judges in Luxembourg). Ultimately, however, the ECJ will have no legal authority in the U.K. after 2027.
Would you go on a plane if you thought the pilot had been up all night working the night before? Or let your child be driven to school by someone who had done that? Or be operated on by a surgeon who had had no sleep for twenty four hours and was still on the go?
Of course not, to any of the above, but apparently it's perfectly OK for our politicians to make decisions that will affect our lives for the next thirty years when they are knackered and sleep deprived. They aren't that good when they have had a proper night's sleep
Oh don't be too sure. There was that farmer story a few years back - something to do with the federal government taking over land which the guy's family had used for grazing rights for decades - where he said he wondered if some people had been better off as slaves. While of course making it clear he was not a racist, oh nossir, he wanted the best for everyone. He just wondered if for some people, that was slavery.
Some people are just an absolute mess. There is literally no words for that guy and Roy Moore....
His personal view is to leave the single market whilst not being that bothered about freedom of movement but he knows lots of Labour Leave voters are bothered about freedom of movement.
I do love watching Labour supporters trying to paint Corbyn as a staunch fan of the EU.
Corbyn is not a staunch fan, or an uninterested one. He is more a pragmatist, what works, works, what doesn't needs more work or gets ditched. What Tmay is doing, is trying to preserve the hegemony of the Tories, and time after time, is making herself look more ridiculous.
And we are supposed to believe that the man who has never changed his mind on anything in 30 years or more has changed his mind on this one particular issue - in spite of the fact that his every action shows that he has not. Or was it some other Labour leader whipping his MPs to vote to end membership of the Single Market and Customs Union?
How can one’s opinions not change over 30 years unless one is, honestly, a dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences. I look back over the development of my views over time as experience (school, university, work with overseas, work overseas etc) shapes and changes them. They’ve all influenced me, whether lightly or firmly. Social and economic views have become more nuanced, more and less accommodating over time. If they don’t, one’s stopped learning. How dull that would be.
You got it in your first sentence there JC is "a dim and intellectually feeble dullard with narrow life skills and experiences."
And you Felix, are thick as a non existent knot hole in a plank of wood....
Oh so Corbyn is a pragmatist now is he? For months we have been told that he is a man of principle, but now he is a pragmatist. The truth is that Corbyn is a fool.
Oh don't be too sure. There was that farmer story a few years back - something to do with the federal government taking over land which the guy's family had used for grazing rights for decades - where he said he wondered if some people had been better off as slaves. While of course making it clear he was not a racist, oh nossir, he wanted the best for everyone. He just wondered if for some people, that was slavery.
Some people are just an absolute mess. There is literally no words for that guy and Roy Moore....
I personally will be sorry to lose FoM. I am one of the few on here who thinks Britain was right, generous and moral in letting in Poles, Latvians and others from Eastern Europe by contrast with the oh so enlightened French and Germans. But I do not, as some appear to do, assume that those who want their country to determine who is or is not let into the country are ipso facto racist fascists or worse.
Oh don't be too sure. There was that farmer story a few years back - something to do with the federal government taking over land which the guy's family had used for grazing rights for decades - where he said he wondered if some people had been better off as slaves. While of course making it clear he was not a racist, oh nossir, he wanted the best for everyone. He just wondered if for some people, that was slavery.
Some people are just an absolute mess. There is literally no words for that guy and Roy Moore....
"How the end of slavery led to starvation and death for millions of black Americans"
That's not me, that's a book sympathetically reviewed by the Guardian.
....and my reaction to that Guardian reviewer is the same as my reaction to Roy Moore and the man referenced by kle4.
I don’t always agree with The Guardian (in fact a fair amount of the time I disagree with their pieces).
Really? The claim is not that slavery is good, but that there's a transition period when you end it when the ex-slave is likely to be worse off than he was before, because there is no longer an owner with an interest in preserving his life as a valuable piece of property. That is both what you'd logically expect, and what in fact happened. That is obviously not to say that slavery is a good thing.
160 years ago families may have cared for one another enough to prevent shitstain politicians raping and abusing their kids.
I don't think that's true. We assume that the society we live in and its mores are eternal and universal, but it isn't. Even a short time ago (say, the lifetime of your grandparents) life was very different and much worse. I am sure that the love of parents for their children (and oftentimes its lack) is a human constant, but parents' capacity to defend and care for their children was in the past far less than it was. And for slaves it was zero by definition.
I pretty much agree, my use of a conditional 'could' & 'may' was low sarcasm. The idea that Moore might be a fit judge on what constitutes strong, caring families is pukey, even without the slavery context.
Funny how when you have no actual answer to the charges you just smear the poster. From your rabid response one might almost think you were a SPAD yourself.
160 years ago families may have cared for one another enough to prevent shitstain politicians raping and abusing their kids.
I don't think that's true. We assume that the society we live in and its mores are eternal and universal, but it isn't. Even a short time ago (say, the lifetime of your grandparents) life was very different and much worse. I am sure that the love of parents for their children (and oftentimes its lack) is a human constant, but parents' capacity to defend and care for their children was in the past far less than it was. And for slaves it was zero by definition.
I pretty much agree, my use of a conditional 'could' & 'may' was low sarcasm. The idea that Moore might be a fit judge on what constitutes strong, caring families is pukey, even without the slavery context.
Useful, thank you. Seems like some wins for us, more for the EU, and there's plenty of potential for people to blow up and crash everything in the coming months.
On the CJEU: A big victory for Euroskeptics — if they can see beyond the delay. U.K. courts will decide whether or not to ask the ECJ for guidance on matters of EU law and are not explicitly bound to follow the guidance (although skeptics say there would be an immediate legal challenge should they ignore their fellow judges in Luxembourg). Ultimately, however, the ECJ will have no legal authority in the U.K. after 2027.
Not sure that’s totally accurate. As I read this provision, the CJEU could still be involved after 2027 if the relevant case was filed by then.
Useful, thank you. Seems like some wins for us, more for the EU, and there's plenty of potential for people to blow up and crash everything in the coming months.
On the CJEU: A big victory for Euroskeptics — if they can see beyond the delay. U.K. courts will decide whether or not to ask the ECJ for guidance on matters of EU law and are not explicitly bound to follow the guidance (although skeptics say there would be an immediate legal challenge should they ignore their fellow judges in Luxembourg). Ultimately, however, the ECJ will have no legal authority in the U.K. after 2027.
Not sure that’s totally accurate. As I read this provision, the CJEU could still be involved after 2027 if the relevant case was filed by then.
It’s up to the Supreme Court - they are only required to consult the CJEU (which they do rarely in any case) up to 2027. After that they don’t.
Had a couple of hours canvassing in deepest Surrey this evening (very dark and very cold, but good fun as always). I'd like to offer deep insights, but to be honest people seemed to be muh the same as when last visited. There's a by-election in Godalming (on Wednesday for some reason) - not expecting anything amazing. One person mentioned street lights, otherwise no issues whatever.
Useful, thank you. Seems like some wins for us, more for the EU, and there's plenty of potential for people to blow up and crash everything in the coming months.
On the CJEU: A big victory for Euroskeptics — if they can see beyond the delay. U.K. courts will decide whether or not to ask the ECJ for guidance on matters of EU law and are not explicitly bound to follow the guidance (although skeptics say there would be an immediate legal challenge should they ignore their fellow judges in Luxembourg). Ultimately, however, the ECJ will have no legal authority in the U.K. after 2027.
Not sure that’s totally accurate. As I read this provision, the CJEU could still be involved after 2027 if the relevant case was filed by then.
Yep. But that seems reasonable. It would hardly be fair to leave cases in limbo after they have been referred. But to all intents and purposes their influence ends in 2027 as no new cases can be referred to them.
Useful, thank you. Seems like some wins for us, more for the EU, and there's plenty of potential for people to blow up and crash everything in the coming months.
On the CJEU: A big victory for Euroskeptics — if they can see beyond the delay. U.K. courts will decide whether or not to ask the ECJ for guidance on matters of EU law and are not explicitly bound to follow the guidance (although skeptics say there would be an immediate legal challenge should they ignore their fellow judges in Luxembourg). Ultimately, however, the ECJ will have no legal authority in the U.K. after 2027.
Not sure that’s totally accurate. As I read this provision, the CJEU could still be involved after 2027 if the relevant case was filed by then.
It’s up to the Supreme Court - they are only required to consult the CJEU (which they do rarely in any case) up to 2027. After that they don’t.
The FT estimated the exit bill at £20bn last year and all the Leavers said that was ridiculously high. As usual, Andrew Neil has crossed the line from sceptical journalism into cheerleading for Leave.
Oh don't be too sure. There was that farmer story a few years back - something to do with the federal government taking over land which the guy's family had used for grazing rights for decades - where he said he wondered if some people had been better off as slaves. While of course making it clear he was not a racist, oh nossir, he wanted the best for everyone. He just wondered if for some people, that was slavery.
Some people are just an absolute mess. There is literally no words for that guy and Roy Moore....
"How the end of slavery led to starvation and death for millions of black Americans"
That's not me, that's a book sympathetically reviewed by the Guardian.
....and my reaction to that Guardian reviewer is the same as my reaction to Roy Moore and the man referenced by kle4.
I don’t always agree with The Guardian (in fact a fair amount of the time I disagree with their pieces).
Anyway, good night everyone.
One of the curiosities of the Emancipation proclamation of 1863 was that it only applied to slaves in the Confederacy. Slaves in the Union States and Union occupied territories remained slaves until 1865.
It is also worth remembering that the American Civil War, like most civil wars, tended to be very brutal. More Americans died in those 4 years than all other American wars put together. The death rates in Prisoner of War camps like Andersonville are as shocking as any Twentieth Century equivalent.
I am sure that freed slaves died in their thousands, and were worse treated by their white neighbours, but we should not judge by the standards of 150 years later. After all in our own islands, just a generation earlier, probably a million people died in the potato famine. Life was very much more brutal.
@William Glenn, you've always been embarrassed by your own country. You would rather it did not exist.
Why should we be surprised by this?
It's been common amongst some of our intellectual elites for over 100 years.
George Orwell:
' In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British. '
@William Glenn, you've always been embarrassed by your own country. You would rather it did not exist.
Why should we be surprised by this?
It's been common amongst some of our intellectual elites for over 100 years.
George Orwell:
' In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British. '
Ironically, it's now the Leave right who take their opinions from Moscow.
Had a couple of hours canvassing in deepest Surrey this evening (very dark and very cold, but good fun as always). I'd like to offer deep insights, but to be honest people seemed to be muh the same as when last visited. There's a by-election in Godalming (on Wednesday for some reason) - not expecting anything amazing. One person mentioned street lights, otherwise no issues whatever.
I would expect that most people canvassed this evening would mostly be focused on getting in out of the cold and getting their front door closed as soon as possible. No wonder there were no issues.
I personally will be sorry to lose FoM. I am one of the few on here who thinks Britain was right, generous and moral in letting in Poles, Latvians and others from Eastern Europe by contrast with the oh so enlightened French and Germans. But I do not, as some appear to do, assume that those who want their country to determine who is or is not let into the country are ipso facto racist fascists or worse.
+1
It may in hindsight have been politically unwise but was clearly “the right thing to do” in particular for the Poles given our respective records in WWII. Long may those who have come here enjoy the freedom their forefathers fought so valiantly for.
Those sneering at the people who took a different point of view to their enlightened (sic) selves in the referendum need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Their behaviour says far more about them than those they criticise.
+2. Polish history is mostly noble and invariably tragic. And the welcome I recevied as an early British traveller driving around their country in 1991 was tremendous; on seeing the GB plates people would come over and spontaneously offer their help, and several thanked us for 'our' efforts during the war, (nothing to do with me at all, of course, except for my father's stint in Italy), which was quite humbling. Letting them earn some money picking fruit or serving coffee is the least we can do.
@William Glenn, you've always been embarrassed by your own country. You would rather it did not exist.
Why should we be surprised by this?
It's been common amongst some of our intellectual elites for over 100 years.
George Orwell:
' In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British. '
Ironically, it's now the Leave right who take their opinions from Moscow.
Are George Osborne and Alex Salmond now Leave Right ?
Still being able to use the Russians as cannon fodder has been advantageous previously and we no longer have to worry about them marching through the Khyber Pass or seizing Constantinople.
Would I be correct in thinking that our options are now limited to either implementing the full text of the Joint Report in the Withdrawal Agreement or crashing out of the EU in March 2019 with no agreement at all? If, come March 2019, things are getting bogged down, will we still have the option of forging some emergency Withdrawal Agreement that doesn't take into account the Joint Report just to keep the planes flying, etc?
Oh don't be too sure. There was that farmer story a few years back - something to do with the federal government taking over land which the guy's family had used for grazing rights for decades - where he said he wondered if some people had been better off as slaves. While of course making it clear he was not a racist, oh nossir, he wanted the best for everyone. He just wondered if for some people, that was slavery.
Some people are just an absolute mess. There is literally no words for that guy and Roy Moore....
"How the end of slavery led to starvation and death for millions of black Americans"
That's not me, that's a book sympathetically reviewed by the Guardian.
....and my reaction to that Guardian reviewer is the same as my reaction to Roy Moore and the man referenced by kle4.
I don’t always agree with The Guardian (in fact a fair amount of the time I disagree with their pieces).
Anyway, good night everyone.
One of the curiosities of the Emancipation proclamation of 1863 was that it only applied to slaves in the Confederacy. Slaves in the Union States and Union occupied territories remained slaves until 1865.
It is also worth remembering that the American Civil War, like most civil wars, tended to be very brutal. More Americans died in those 4 years than all other American wars put together. The death rates in Prisoner of War camps like Andersonville are as shocking as any Twentieth Century equivalent.
I am sure that freed slaves died in their thousands, and were worse treated by their white neighbours, but we should not judge by the standards of 150 years later. After all in our own islands, just a generation earlier, probably a million people died in the potato famine. Life was very much more brutal.
Many abolitionists wanted to transport the slaves to Liberia.
The British authorities seemed to have behave quite progressively in the Revolutionary War:
Would I be correct in thinking that our options are now limited to either implementing the full text of the Joint Report in the Withdrawal Agreement or crashing out of the EU in March 2019 with no agreement at all? If, come March 2019, things are getting bogged down, will we still have the option of forging some emergency Withdrawal Agreement that doesn't take into account the Joint Report just to keep the planes flying, etc?
Technically nothing in it is binding until it becomes part of the ratified A50 agreement, so I suppose there's still a possibility that May could be defenestrated and we could go through the farce of someone else turning up in Brussels and trying to renegotiate what was already agreed, Varoufakis style.
The FT estimated the exit bill at £20bn last year and all the Leavers said that was ridiculously high. As usual, Andrew Neil has crossed the line from sceptical journalism into cheerleading for Leave.
Got a link to that? There are FT articles saying the U.K. would raise its 20bn offer - but all the estimates they did them selves I can find are in the 40-60 camp and the notorious 100.....
In what could have been the costliest lunch date in history, FT editor Lionel Barber told the president of the European Commission in his private dining room in Brussels that, according to his paper’s calculations, Britain owed the EU at least €60 billion (about £52.7 billion).
@William Glenn, you've always been embarrassed by your own country. You would rather it did not exist.
Why should we be surprised by this?
It's been common amongst some of our intellectual elites for over 100 years.
George Orwell:
' In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British. '
It was bollocks even when Orwell wrote it, after all he was part of the English Intelligentsia of the time!
The real Brexit "bill" is about EUR20bn, because we'd have had to pay EUR10bn a year during the transition period irrespective.
Thats rather like Mrs Fox when she boasts of saving so much on her new coat!
The agreed bill is only settlement of current liabilities. Any future participation in EU bodies, or markes, is going to require ongoing subscriptions.
I wonder when that £350 million per week will magically appear.
Would I be correct in thinking that our options are now limited to either implementing the full text of the Joint Report in the Withdrawal Agreement or crashing out of the EU in March 2019 with no agreement at all? If, come March 2019, things are getting bogged down, will we still have the option of forging some emergency Withdrawal Agreement that doesn't take into account the Joint Report just to keep the planes flying, etc?
Technically nothing in it is binding until it becomes part of the ratified A50 agreement, so I suppose there's still a possibility that May could be defenestrated and we could go through the farce of someone else turning up in Brussels and trying to renegotiate what was already agreed, Varoufakis style.
But isn't the Joint Report itself a commitment to incorporate the principles contained therein into the Withdrawal (A50) Agreement? One would presume that the Irish on both sides of the border see it that way! Are we not now irrevocably committed to soft borders across both Ireland and the Irish Sea in any such agreement?
Only 20 seconds in, but Channel 4 News already trying to make the worst of the deal...
And you are surprised by this?
Channel 4 executives must be keen as mustard to relocate to the 2021 City of Culture, Coventry.
Where lots of the events are being held at Warwick Arts Centre, which isn't in Warwick, nor really Coventry....
I wonder how many out of town numpties are going to get terribly confused when they go to visit.
My understanding from student days there is that it's literally on the boundary broad between Cov & Warwickshire so it got funding from both local authorities.
Almost all of Warwick Uni's extensive campus is inside Coventry's territory. Even the med school at Gibbet Hill.
Funny how when you have no actual answer to the charges you just smear the poster. From your rabid response one might almost think you were a SPAD yourself.
Wish I was sometimes, straight out of Oxford and into the corridors of Westminster, Daddy or Mummy subsidising my incidental expenses, why, even one day I might become Prime Minister, or an ex-newspaper editor or presenter for the BBC, just thinkin'
Funny how when you have no actual answer to the charges you just smear the poster. From your rabid response one might almost think you were a SPAD yourself.
Wish I was sometimes, straight out of Oxford and into the corridors of Westminster, Daddy or Mummy subsidising my incidental expenses, why, even one day I might become Prime Minister, or an ex-newspaper editor or presenter for the BBC, just thinkin'
Putting animosity aside it seems a soul-less and horrible life to me. My view of politicians is in the gutter in the first place so the idea of being a politician's grey matter/servant seems the worst of life choices.
Comments
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/how-did-arron-banks-afford-brexit
But it isn't him. It isn't even the people in UKIP, I admire their eccentricity. It is the nationalist wave that they are riding that I have a problem with.
'Our perfectly sensible and right-thinking proposition X happened to be supported & made to happen by racist, xenophobic total shit Y, but let's forget about Y now' is of course understandable, if not admirable.
I would have though the right/wrong numbers would only start to move (and let's bear in mind the movements are pretty tiny anyway) once the full shape of the deal and future trading framework becomes clear, and is ratified.
I'd then expect HMG to make some meaningful popular moves off the back of it.
Reading your earlier posting by the way I was also a fan of Flexit.
He does seem to have made a virtue out of never ever changing his mind.
Remember this is the man who divorced his wife rather than agree with her letting their son go to a better school.
A lot will come down to what parts of the single market/customs alignment parts fall into the alignment, equivalence and divergence categories.
The EU will probably want 80-90% of them in the first. The UK probably 20-30%. We will end up with about 50-60%, with scope for future divergence. Brexit is a process.
And I expect I'll get royally bored saying this over the next year.
September: 'Germany’s Angela Merkel has been told by the British government to expect Theresa May this week to offer to fill a post-Brexit EU budget hole of at least €20bn, the first attempt by London to meet European demands to settle its divorce bill.'
https://www.ft.com/content/410cb88e-9d58-11e7-9a86-4d5a475ba4c5
October: 'May has already agreed to pay Britain's full contributions to the latest budget round, amounting to some €20 billion, or $24 billion.
That figure, however, was dismissed this week by the president of the European Parliament ... with Germany and other countries refusing to allow talks on a future trade deal to start until Britain signalled it would agree to pay at least double the amount.
Though the UK has made no official commitment to pay the extra money, the prime minister has reportedly privately assured EU leaders that Britain will ultimately agree to pay up once talks progress onto trade.'
http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-privately-agrees-to-pay-40-billion-brexit-divorce-bill-2017-10
November: 'reports Britain was preparing to double its exit offer to £38 billion in order to get the EU to agree to open crucial trade discussions in December. ...
However, it is believed no exact figure has been set, and the extra funding would only be on the table in exchange for fast-tracked talks on post-Brexit trade arrangements, and the framework for a two-year transitional deal after formal withdrawal in March 2019.'
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/cabinet-agrees-to-increase-uk-s-brexit-bill-to-40bn-after-crunch-talks-a3696841.html
And the EU response: “This €40 billion could make sense only if it’s a first step with an openness to discuss further [financial] commitments,” said a diplomat from a small EU country. “It could be enough to say, OK we are ready to move to phase 2, but only if it’s not the final figure.”
December: 40 billion, not including a two year transitional framework, and before the talks have progressed onto trade.
So:
May offers 20 billion inclusive of any transitional deal etc. EU says 'double it, for a start'. May offers 40 billion, inclusive of any transitional deal etc. EU rejects it. Current deal: 40 billion, plus whatever is decided on for the transitional period added on later. Exactly what the EU's public position was months ago.
https://twitter.com/eugene_scott/status/938873902369067008
'This can’t be real'
Paedo Roy could be right. 160 years ago families may have cared for one another enough to prevent shitstain politicians raping and abusing their kids.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-42285433
https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/12/iain-dale-7.html
It may in hindsight have been politically unwise but was clearly “the right thing to do” in particular for the Poles given our respective records in WWII. Long may those who have come here enjoy the freedom their forefathers fought so valiantly for.
Those sneering at the people who took a different point of view to their enlightened (sic) selves in the referendum need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Their behaviour says far more about them than those they criticise.
A big victory for Euroskeptics — if they can see beyond the delay. U.K. courts will decide whether or not to ask the ECJ for guidance on matters of EU law and are not explicitly bound to follow the guidance (although skeptics say there would be an immediate legal challenge should they ignore their fellow judges in Luxembourg). Ultimately, however, the ECJ will have no legal authority in the U.K. after 2027.
Of course not, to any of the above, but apparently it's perfectly OK for our politicians to make decisions that will affect our lives for the next thirty years when they are knackered and sleep deprived. They aren't that good when they have had a proper night's sleep
"How the end of slavery led to starvation and death for millions of black Americans"
That's not me, that's a book sympathetically reviewed by the Guardian.
It's been common amongst some of our intellectual elites for over 100 years.
I don’t always agree with The Guardian (in fact a fair amount of the time I disagree with their pieces).
Anyway, good night everyone.
It is also worth remembering that the American Civil War, like most civil wars, tended to be very brutal. More Americans died in those 4 years than all other American wars put together. The death rates in Prisoner of War camps like Andersonville are as shocking as any Twentieth Century equivalent.
I am sure that freed slaves died in their thousands, and were worse treated by their white neighbours, but we should not judge by the standards of 150 years later. After all in our own islands, just a generation earlier, probably a million people died in the potato famine. Life was very much more brutal.
' In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always anti-British. '
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/939281044800450560
Still being able to use the Russians as cannon fodder has been advantageous previously and we no longer have to worry about them marching through the Khyber Pass or seizing Constantinople.
The British authorities seemed to have behave quite progressively in the Revolutionary War:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Loyalist
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/08/worlds-expensive-lunch-financial-times-nearly-cost-uk-extra15/
The agreed bill is only settlement of current liabilities. Any future participation in EU bodies, or markes, is going to require ongoing subscriptions.
I wonder when that £350 million per week will magically appear.