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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It is time to salute the brilliance of the visionary that is D

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  • On thread, stopped clock is right twice a day.
  • Mr. M, these things do ebb and flow. Byzantium went from the heady days of Nicephorus Phocas, John Tzimisces and Basil II to the dreadfulness of Basil's successors, the excellence of the Comneni and then the ultimately terminal failure of the Angeli.

    However, the current leaders of UK politics do appear to be poor at best, and dangerous at worst.
  • DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    What has Thornberry done to upset the Corbynistas? Apart from having the wrong trouser equipment she has been looking pretty much nailed on to me for most of this year.
    Essentially the hard core that run Momentum are worried that the successor to Corbyn will choose at some point to deviate from the true faith and display some independent thought. Were a future leader to take steps to move the party back from the extremes of the far left in order to get a broader appeal, having been elected on that ticket, things could get very interesting. The tankies that run Momentum instead want an ideological zealot such as Long-Bailey to succeed in order to secure the revolution. Any lightweight will do.


  • DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    What has Thornberry done to upset the Corbynistas? Apart from having the wrong trouser equipment she has been looking pretty much nailed on to me for most of this year.
    Essentially the hard core that run Momentum are worried that the successor to Corbyn will choose at some point to deviate from the true faith and display some independent thought. Were a future leader to take steps to move the party back from the extremes of the far left in order to get a broader appeal, having been elected on that ticket, things could get very interesting. The tankies that run Momentum instead want an ideological zealot such as Long-Bailey to succeed in order to secure the revolution. Any lightweight will do.


    Dissent will not be tolerated.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    surbiton said:

    twitter.com/agentp22/status/939789198202228736

    What was on the ballot paper ?
    Voting one way or the other typically has consequences not listed on the ballot paper.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,703
    edited December 2017
    Cameron also said he would invoke Article 50 the next day if there was a Leave vote.
  • surbiton said:
    Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    Since the 'single market' is an integral part of the European Union, it should have been pretty obvious leaving the single market was involved too - and we had all those politicians (Cameron, Osborne, Mandelson) telling us we'd be leaving too....
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,282

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.

    What has Thornberry done to upset the Corbynistas? Apart from having the wrong trouser equipment she has been looking pretty much nailed on to me for most of this year.
    Essentially the hard core that run Momentum are worried that the successor to Corbyn will choose at some point to deviate from the true faith and display some independent thought. Were a future leader to take steps to move the party back from the extremes of the far left in order to get a broader appeal, having been elected on that ticket, things could get very interesting. The tankies that run Momentum instead want an ideological zealot such as Long-Bailey to succeed in order to secure the revolution. Any lightweight will do.


    This is true, although I think it's the younger hardcore activists who hold most antipathy to the emergence of a soft left contender. If the project gets completed, and Labour becomes the Momentum party, they have most to gain - parliamentary seats, prominent official roles, media gigs. A more inclusive party under a soft left leader with hints of Corbynism isn't in their interests - and it's key he stays in charge until the job's completed and is succeeded by one of their own.

    Things could get interesting anyway - if the government settles things down for a while, or eventually manages to pull off a fudge on Brexit that averts disaster and heals some of the damage done by early flirtations with the right, there's every chance Labour's civil war turns hot again.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Even now the BBC has only extended the snow warning as far south as Essex and Hertfordshire.

    Snow on the ground in London before Xmas is very rare. Indeed for the southern UK generally, snowfall is statistically more likely at Easter than at Christmas.

    We've got a huge snowfall in Luton.
    Yes, just down the road in Harpenden and feeling snowed in already with more to come
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    Any credit for Labour's upsurge in the polls goes to Corbyn [ and May's spectacular lack of people-sense ]. This is coming from a non-Corbynista. Only during the election campaign, where people saw Corbyn upfront a lot, did people warm to him.

    Abbott was just whistling in the wind. Her communication skills are terrible. However, she is respected hugely in the Black community.

    I really don't understand this. If a community wants a representative, they want that person to be competent and articulate, someone who can really make a difference for their community. Abbott is none of these. The Black community deserve far better (as do her constituents)
    That is for the Black community to decide. They may see in her qualities, we do not see. Russians think Putin is great. Apparently, people of Alabama will elect a child-molester.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922

    surbiton said:
    Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    Since the 'single market' is an integral part of the European Union, it should have been pretty obvious leaving the single market was involved too - and we had all those politicians (Cameron, Osborne, Mandelson) telling us we'd be leaving too....
    ... And Dan Hannan telling us we'd be staying in the single market. Almost as if he didn't want voters to think through the implications of voting leave?
  • HYUFD said:

    Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.

    He isn't supposed to be inspiring he is supposed to be negotiating with Barnier who is hardly inspiring himself. As for his future leadership prospects those depend on his negotiating a deal by Brexit.

    He has confirmed he wants a free trade deal with the best of Canada and South Korea's deals with the EU plus something on services

    It’s not up to him. We’ll get the deal the EU is prepared to give us.

  • It’s intriguing that David Davis and the other cabinet Brexiteers are still struggling to understand that British newspapers and TV stations can be accessed from the EU27.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    edited December 2017
    Just to add, it was clear that during the campaign both leavers and remainers agreed that leaving the single market would be a bad idea, and they adapted their rhetoric accordingly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    Any credit for Labour's upsurge in the polls goes to Corbyn [ and May's spectacular lack of people-sense ]. This is coming from a non-Corbynista. Only during the election campaign, where people saw Corbyn upfront a lot, did people warm to him.

    Abbott was just whistling in the wind. Her communication skills are terrible. However, she is respected hugely in the Black community.

    I really don't understand this. If a community wants a representative, they want that person to be competent and articulate, someone who can really make a difference for their community. Abbott is none of these. The Black community deserve far better (as do her constituents)
    That is for the Black community to decide. They may see in her qualities, we do not see. Russians think Putin is great. Apparently, people of Alabama will elect a child-molester.
    We will see on Tuesday. Though more a case of Alabama will elect anybody if they are a Republican if Moore wins, you have to go back to Jimmy Carter in 1976 to find the last Democrat to win Alabama at a presidential election and the Democrats have not had a Senator there since 1992 either.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.

    He isn't supposed to be inspiring he is supposed to be negotiating with Barnier who is hardly inspiring himself. As for his future leadership prospects those depend on his negotiating a deal by Brexit.

    He has confirmed he wants a free trade deal with the best of Canada and South Korea's deals with the EU plus something on services

    It’s not up to him. We’ll get the deal the EU is prepared to give us.

    Which even Barnier has said will be based on Canada
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
    He has not permanently committed to the Norway option but certainly wants a longer transition than the Tories do

    Labour’s Brexit strategy is solely to not have the same one as the Tories. That’s it.

  • surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    Any credit for Labour's upsurge in the polls goes to Corbyn [ and May's spectacular lack of people-sense ]. This is coming from a non-Corbynista. Only during the election campaign, where people saw Corbyn upfront a lot, did people warm to him.

    Abbott was just whistling in the wind. Her communication skills are terrible. However, she is respected hugely in the Black community.

    I really don't understand this. If a community wants a representative, they want that person to be competent and articulate, someone who can really make a difference for their community. Abbott is none of these. The Black community deserve far better (as do her constituents)
    That is for the Black community to decide. They may see in her qualities, we do not see. Russians think Putin is great. Apparently, people of Alabama will elect a child-molester.
    The fact that your comparisons are Putin and an Alabama child molester seems like damning with faint praise.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited December 2017
    Just listened to Labour's business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey being interviewed by John Piennar. It was obvious she either didn't understand Labours nationalisation plans or if she did she made them sound both unappealing and nonsensical. If Corbyn ever expects to be PM they're going to need a serious rethink in both policies and personel.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,751
    edited December 2017
    More consolidation for the 'less popular than cancer and dementia' party.
    Ruth obviously hasn't been banging on about no Indy ref II enough.

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/939807958195752960
  • DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    What has Thornberry done to upset the Corbynistas? Apart from having the wrong trouser equipment she has been looking pretty much nailed on to me for most of this year.

    She made a very pro-Israel speech and strongly condemned anti-Semitism.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
    He has not permanently committed to the Norway option but certainly wants a longer transition than the Tories do

    Labour’s Brexit strategy is solely to not have the same one as the Tories. That’s it.

    Except it is largely the same as the Tories just with a longer transition period.

    If you want to stay in the single market permanently or even reverse Brexit then the LDs are your best bet, to go straight to WTO terms and hard Brexit then UKIP.

    The Tories and Labour have barely an inch of difference between them on Brexit now
  • An interesting Sunday thread (no snurr on Teesside)

    On Abbott I sarcastically tipped her as next Labour leader as being exactly the right sort the howl at the moon brigade in the party think should be leader - right-on, a woman, not-white, pliable. Thornberry wants it but as others have pointed out her lack of anti-semitism may be a problem. Long-Bailey / Rayner etc aren't enough of a public figure (even I'd struggle to describe RL-B, she's one of these blowaway lightweights who somehow find themselves elevated). Abbott still a decent prospect to pay out for TSE's longlonglong-shot bet

    On Corbyn does anyone remember that Doctor Who episode where Trigger off Only Fools and Horses is the man who invents the Cybermen? He needs to keep his ageing body so that he can complete his plan to reshape the world. Thats Corbyn now - Lansman will find someone who can keep The Messiah going well into his 90s
  • surbiton said:
    Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    Since the 'single market' is an integral part of the European Union, it should have been pretty obvious leaving the single market was involved too - and we had all those politicians (Cameron, Osborne, Mandelson) telling us we'd be leaving too....
    ... And Dan Hannan telling us we'd be staying in the single market. Almost as if he didn't want voters to think through the implications of voting leave?
    https://www.kingdomcomment.com/blog/anatomy-of-a-smear-dan-hannan
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.

    He isn't supposed to be inspiring he is supposed to be negotiating with Barnier who is hardly inspiring himself. As for his future leadership prospects those depend on his negotiating a deal by Brexit.

    He has confirmed he wants a free trade deal with the best of Canada and South Korea's deals with the EU plus something on services

    It’s not up to him. We’ll get the deal the EU is prepared to give us.

    Which even Barnier has said will be based on Canada

    Only because of the UK’s red lines. After all, when does Canada plus plus plus become Norway minus minus minus?

  • It’s intriguing that David Davis and the other cabinet Brexiteers are still struggling to understand that British newspapers and TV stations can be accessed from the EU27.

    But didn't the Brexiteers complain that an article written in German, in a German newspaper, was an attempt by the EU to interfere in our general election?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922

    surbiton said:
    Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    Since the 'single market' is an integral part of the European Union, it should have been pretty obvious leaving the single market was involved too - and we had all those politicians (Cameron, Osborne, Mandelson) telling us we'd be leaving too....
    ... And Dan Hannan telling us we'd be staying in the single market. Almost as if he didn't want voters to think through the implications of voting leave?
    https://www.kingdomcomment.com/blog/anatomy-of-a-smear-dan-hannan
    LOL. Is that one of those sites hosted from a backroom in Moldova?
  • BBC Sunday Politics opens with week summary "Theresa May has done the easy bit" this week....
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    It is snowing quite heavily here in North London and my garden is looking simply glorious! I have some beautiful red holly bushes which stand out against the snow. Spectacular.

    A day for walking on Hampstead Heath.

    Generally snow like this used to happen around my birthday in February. I can only remember one occasion a few years ago when we had snow in late autumn.

    Glad I won’t be commuting tomorrow though. Next weekend I have to be up in the Lakes, right over the fells into the Duddon Valley, a treacherous road if it is snowy and icy.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2017
    Roger said:

    Just listened to Labour's business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey being interviewed by John Piennar. It was obvious she either didn't understand Labours nationalisation plans or if she did she made them sound both unappealing and nonsensical. If Corbyn ever expects to be PM they're going to need a serious rethink in both policies and personel.

    Has a top team ever been as weak as Labour's shadow cabinet? The Tories at the moment are crap, but they are at least adults compared to the toddlers that make up most of Labour's positions.

    That can't be said of under Miliband, where despite him being a bit of a plonker, the likes of Cooper-Balls aren't idiots.

    Where as during the GE campaign we had senior labour politicians falsely accusing companies of overseas tax dodging, who are 100% based in the UK, etc etc etc.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,751
    edited December 2017

    surbiton said:
    Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    Since the 'single market' is an integral part of the European Union, it should have been pretty obvious leaving the single market was involved too - and we had all those politicians (Cameron, Osborne, Mandelson) telling us we'd be leaving too....
    ... And Dan Hannan telling us we'd be staying in the single market. Almost as if he didn't want voters to think through the implications of voting leave?
    https://www.kingdomcomment.com/blog/anatomy-of-a-smear-dan-hannan
    LOL. Is that one of those sites hosted from a backroom in Moldova?
    I'd expect Moldovan troll farms to have slightly better presentational skills, unless they were deliberately going for the 'loner in his underpants blogging from his bedroom in his mum's house' look.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Just watching David Davis on Marr. How totally uninspiring this man is.

    He isn't supposed to be inspiring he is supposed to be negotiating with Barnier who is hardly inspiring himself. As for his future leadership prospects those depend on his negotiating a deal by Brexit.

    He has confirmed he wants a free trade deal with the best of Canada and South Korea's deals with the EU plus something on services

    It’s not up to him. We’ll get the deal the EU is prepared to give us.

    Which even Barnier has said will be based on Canada

    Only because of the UK’s red lines. After all, when does Canada plus plus plus become Norway minus minus minus?

    The tipover would be continued free movement but the government is committed to replacing that with work permits
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    Cyclefree said:

    It is snowing quite heavily here in North London and my garden is looking simply glorious! I have some beautiful red holly bushes which stand out against the snow. Spectacular.

    A day for walking on Hampstead Heath.

    Generally snow like this used to happen around my birthday in February. I can only remember one occasion a few years ago when we had snow in late autumn.

    Glad I won’t be commuting tomorrow though. Next weekend I have to be up in the Lakes, right over the fells into the Duddon Valley, a treacherous road if it is snowy and icy.

    Looks like it will be milder from Weds
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited December 2017

    More consolidation for the 'less popular than cancer and dementia' party.
    Ruth obviously hasn't been banging on about no Indy ref II enough.

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/939807958195752960

    Those Holyrood figures would see the SNP lose their majority with the Greens and Richard Leonard would likely become First Minister with Tory and LD confidence and supply.

    That would be the final nail in the coffin for indyref2 for the foreseeable future.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
    He has not permanently committed to the Norway option but certainly wants a longer transition than the Tories do

    Labour’s Brexit strategy is solely to not have the same one as the Tories. That’s it.

    Except it is largely the same as the Tories just with a longer transition period.

    If you want to stay in the single market permanently or even reverse Brexit then the LDs are your best bet, to go straight to WTO terms and hard Brexit then UKIP.

    The Tories and Labour have barely an inch of difference between them on Brexit now
    For the time being, they just need to be a bit less Brexit than the Tories, whilst they wait to see where public opinion will lead them..
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    There is an argument being put around that Rayner has grown into her brief albeit from such a low base that it would be near impossible not to improve. You were, I recall, pretty rude about Gove in education (correctly, he knows how to destroy not how to build). What’s your take?
    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403

    More consolidation for the 'less popular than cancer and dementia' party.
    Ruth obviously hasn't been banging on about no Indy ref II enough.

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/939807958195752960

    Having an English leader gives SLAB a boost. Who'd have thunk it!
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403
    Roger said:

    Just listened to Labour's business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey being interviewed by John Piennar. It was obvious she either didn't understand Labours nationalisation plans or if she did she made them sound both unappealing and nonsensical. If Corbyn ever expects to be PM they're going to need a serious rethink in both policies and personel.

    I call her Rebecca Short-Trousers for a reason. Lightweight.
  • justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    There is an argument being put around that Rayner has grown into her brief albeit from such a low base that it would be near impossible not to improve. You were, I recall, pretty rude about Gove in education (correctly, he knows how to destroy not how to build). What’s your take?
    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.
    You really are an odd cookie.
  • justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    There is an argument being put around that Rayner has grown into her brief albeit from such a low base that it would be near impossible not to improve. You were, I recall, pretty rude about Gove in education (correctly, he knows how to destroy not how to build). What’s your take?
    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.
    Perhaps. I don’t give **** about that other than to the extent that it reinforces a perception/reality of stupidity.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403
    Just noticed that Thornberry is wearing a Snowflake brooch. Two ways to see that.
  • I wonder why the Sunday Times Labour bribery story is being totally ignored in the media this morning. Had this been about Conservatives it would have been headline news for days, if not weeks.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    edited December 2017
    Totally off topic... what is the BBC trying to do with its Christmas continuity film between programmes? Somebody has sat down and decided on the most multiculturally possible cartoon couple, possibly father and daughter, who perform a series of dance moves... the girl in particular looks like a classic, Disneyesque middle eastern, Asian, North American native, Inuit combination.

    Normally lacking any sympathy for the anti-immigrant crowd, I can understand why the national broadcaster bending over backwards not to include any hint of traditional, British culture in its Christmas imagery could irritate. Or am I wrong, does this kind of thing foster understanding and better relationships within communities?

    P.s. not snowing here but snow looking wonderful on Pen-y-Ghent, Ingleborough and Scafell all in view from the lounge.
  • justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    There is an argument being put around that Rayner has grown into her brief albeit from such a low base that it would be near impossible not to improve. You were, I recall, pretty rude about Gove in education (correctly, he knows how to destroy not how to build). What’s your take?
    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Do you think the country would vote for someone who had an affair whilst married?
  • I wonder why the Sunday Times Labour bribery story is being totally ignored in the media this morning. Had this been about Conservatives it would have been headline news for days, if not weeks.

    Because it is Tower Hamlets...it is just factored in that corruption is a daily occurrence there?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    stevef said:

    Neil Kinnock's Labour was ahead (often way ahead) in the polls of Thatcher's Tories for 8 out of the 9 years he was leader. Unlike Corbyn he won Tory marginal seats on huge swings at by elections.

    And he lost both general elections. As will Corbyn.

    But when did Kinnock poll 40% or come within 2.5% of the Tories at a general election?
  • justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Fair play to TSE for highlighting Dianne’s foresight/lucky prediction.
    I agree with others that Jezza did better once the public focused on him during GE rather than reading about him in the papers.

    As for next leader - not convinced... I think she could get on the ballot if backed by Corbyn - but she did poorly the time she ran before...

    At the moment, as with the Tories, there is no obvious alternative Labour leader who would command the backing of the PLP and the wider movement. Rayner and Thornberry, aside from the fact both are pretty clueless on their respective briefs, appear to have upset the Corbynistas recently. I wouldn't say the same of Ashworth who has consistently been the one Labour spokesperson more impressive than his opposite number, but he also seems to have upset them somehow. Macdonnell is intellectually head and shoulders above the rest, including most of the old Blair/Brown cabinet, but is widely loathed and has a political history even more embarrassing than Jezza's. Cat Smith is utterly unfit to be in the shadow cabinet and also has quite a marginal seat. Starmer is a risk for a number of reasons (and I'm not sure I'd agree he's done well in responding to Davis either). Clive Lewis appears to have shot his bolt. No ex-member of the Brown government stands even a faint chance now the left smell blood. That means Abbott seems a realistic possibility if she stands, but I'm doubtful if she would stand given how ill she appears to be.

    That leaves an awful lot riding on Corbyn not breaking down, and even allowing for his health, vigour and admirably healthy lifestyle he's 69 in a few months. While he's doing far better than anyone expected - probably including him - the ineptitude of his succession planning given his age is not suggestive of a man with a grasp of long term strategy.

    Labour are very fortunate to be facing a government in such disarray.
    There is an argument being put around that Rayner has grown into her brief albeit from such a low base that it would be near impossible not to improve. You were, I recall, pretty rude about Gove in education (correctly, he knows how to destroy not how to build). What’s your take?
    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.
    "Immoral". Outstanding!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Keir Starmer effectively defending the government's position nirtoring regulations for a trade deal plus with a longer transition period staying inside the single market and customs union

    He is effectively saying he will accept the Norway option as Marr's commented, accepting UK as a vassal state.

    To be honest if this was the end result I would rather stay in. No control over free movement, our laws, and unable to do our own trade deals is pointless
    He has not permanently committed to the Norway option but certainly wants a longer transition than the Tories do

    Labour’s Brexit strategy is solely to not have the same one as the Tories. That’s it.

    Lady Nugee on the box just said she didn't understand the deal. somewhat unimpressive response from someone touted as a potential leader.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403

    It’s intriguing that David Davis and the other cabinet Brexiteers are still struggling to understand that British newspapers and TV stations can be accessed from the EU27.

    I thought that was restricted to the Daily Mail on the Costa del Sol.
  • BBC Sunday Politics opens with week summary "Theresa May has done the easy bit" this week....

    It's what Tusk said.

    BBC - Mouthpiece of the EU.
  • Now kids, “taa” is for talaqa (bullet), siin is for sarokh (rocket) and baa is for bunduqiyah (gun).

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5105932/british-school-brainwashed-isis-spelling-app/
  • I wonder why the Sunday Times Labour bribery story is being totally ignored in the media this morning. Had this been about Conservatives it would have been headline news for days, if not weeks.

    Because it is Tower Hamlets...it is just factored in that corruption is a daily occurrence there?
    Perhaps, but given the 58-minute tape of the conversation that the Sunday Times claims to have, I would have expected some scrutiny.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    Rexel56 said:

    Totally off topic... what is the BBC trying to do with its Christmas continuity film between programmes? Somebody has sat down and decided on the most multiculturally possible cartoon couple, possibly father and daughter, who perform a series of dance moves... the girl in particular looks like a classic, Disneyesque middle eastern, Asian, North American native, Inuit combination.

    Normally lacking any sympathy for the anti-immigrant crowd, I can understand why the national broadcaster bending over backwards not to include any hint of traditional, British culture in its Christmas imagery could irritate. Or am I wrong, does this kind of thing foster understanding and better relationships within communities?

    P.s. not snowing here but snow looking wonderful on Pen-y-Ghent, Ingleborough and Scafell all in view from the lounge.

    I think like the Tesco Xmas ad, it was devised with the perfectly laudable goal of angering UKIPpers, little Englanders, borderline racists, and actual racists.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited December 2017
    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2017

    I wonder why the Sunday Times Labour bribery story is being totally ignored in the media this morning. Had this been about Conservatives it would have been headline news for days, if not weeks.

    Because it is Tower Hamlets...it is just factored in that corruption is a daily occurrence there?
    Perhaps, but given the 58-minute tape of the conversation that the Sunday Times claims to have, I would have expected some scrutiny.
    I was kinda of joking. But I don't think anybody is surprised to hear of Tower Hamlets politicians up to their neck in corruption?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2017

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.

    Maybe his mate Clive told him this wrong info, when they were having a pint together?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403
    Sunday Politics Yorkshire bit just showed a totally bollocks graphic supposedly showing the East Coast Mainline. Had it running through Leeds.
  • HYUFD said:

    More consolidation for the 'less popular than cancer and dementia' party.
    Ruth obviously hasn't been banging on about no Indy ref II enough.

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/939807958195752960

    Those Holyrood figures would see the SNP lose their majority with the Greens and Richard Leonard would likely become First Minister with Tory and LD confidence and supply.

    That would be the final nail in the coffin for indyref2 for the foreseeable future.
    But, but, but the constant cry of the PB Yoonuchs was that indyref2 is off the table for the foreseeable future. Does this mean that they (you) were mistaken previously?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2017
    Labour's Brexit plan would see UK forever tied to single market and keep making payments into the EU's budget, Sir Keir Starmer admits

    The shadow Brexit secretary said Labour would make it “easy” for European citizens to keep coming to the UK post-Brexit while businesses would still have to comply with rules and regulations made in Brussels.

    Meanwhile, Sir Keir also refused to rule out calling a second referendum on the UK’s exit from the EU.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/10/labours-brexit-plan-would-see-uk-forever-tied-single-market/

    Does Jezza know about this?
  • Rexel56 said:

    Totally off topic... what is the BBC trying to do with its Christmas continuity film between programmes? Somebody has sat down and decided on the most multiculturally possible cartoon couple, possibly father and daughter, who perform a series of dance moves... the girl in particular looks like a classic, Disneyesque middle eastern, Asian, North American native, Inuit combination.

    Normally lacking any sympathy for the anti-immigrant crowd, I can understand why the national broadcaster bending over backwards not to include any hint of traditional, British culture in its Christmas imagery could irritate. Or am I wrong, does this kind of thing foster understanding and better relationships within communities?

    P.s. not snowing here but snow looking wonderful on Pen-y-Ghent, Ingleborough and Scafell all in view from the lounge.

    Do you live on the top of Whernside?
  • More consolidation for the 'less popular than cancer and dementia' party.
    Ruth obviously hasn't been banging on about no Indy ref II enough.

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/939807958195752960

    Having an English leader gives SLAB a boost. Who'd have thunk it!
    Not a section of SLab it would seem.

    'Being English is an issue in Scottish politics

    Does it matter that Richard Leonard is English? Does it matter that the bookies’ favourite for the Scottish Labour leadership speaks with a fine Yorkshire accent? This is the unasked question of Scottish politics at the moment.

    I say “unasked”. What I really mean is “unasked in public”. In private, among the Labour faithful, it is asked a lot.'

    https://tinyurl.com/y72renak
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    No snow here in the real north (Newcastle upon Tyne). I’ve driven down to York for a nice day out!
  • Out walking at the moment. Just stopped for a drink. Everywhere blanketed with snow. It’s truly spectacular. On days like these I remember just how lucky I am to live in this country.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited December 2017
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    She said it on an interview on the TV which backs up her tweet..

    But you know better the marital status of her son than she does.

    Perhaps you could ask Clive Lewis the next time you meet him.
  • justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722

    Out walking at the moment. Just stopped for a drink. Everywhere blanketed with snow. It’s truly spectacular. On days like these I remember just how lucky I am to live in this country.

    Had a weekend in Cambridge. Drove back this am to our bit of N Essex very carefully. Good job we left when we did; A120 now apparently blocked near Braintree
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    No snow here in the real north (Newcastle upon Tyne). I’ve driven down to York for a nice day out!

    Well, I've just walked down into Cannock and back, and I've got some very good pictures. I've also seen someone taking a rear wheel drive Vauxhall up an untreated one in four gradient (you will be surprised to learn this did not end well).

    I would estimate we've had four inches, but it's hard to judge as we have a strong wind too and it's drifting everywhere - some places are clear of snow (and really treacherous and icy) and some places it's a couple of feet deep and really quite pleasant to walk on once you've got over that sinking feeling.

    The Chase must look ravishing. It is however not the day to go and look at it unless you live within walking distance.

    And it's still snowing. I have a feeling I am walking to school tomorrow and I may well be the only member of my faculty there as all others live at distance.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.

    Maybe his mate Clive told him this wrong info, when they were having a pint together?
    He is no mate of mine. I am not a party member and do not live in his constituency- but I happened to come across him in a local pub in the early weeks of the election campaign.
    As it happens, I had quite a tetchy exchange in the very same pub last week with one of his supporters and former city councillors. When I revealed that I would not be voting Labour next time in Norwich North - because of the gender vetted shortlist - he rather sarcastically asked me 'how is Brexit going?'. - knowing that I had voted Leave. My reply to him was simply - 'Without Brexit we would still have a majority Tory Govt!'
  • No snow here in the real north (Newcastle upon Tyne). I’ve driven down to York for a nice day out!

    Yer what? Geordies are practically Scots.

    The Real North is Yorkshire. Endex.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
    If you take the Andrea Loathsome view, NOT having a child out of wedlock would make her unfit for high office.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    She said it on an interview on the TV which backs up her tweet..

    But you know better the marital status of her son than she does.

    Perhaps you could ask Clive Lewis the next time you meet him.
    People use the terms 'daughter /son in law' often when couples are just 'shacked up' or 'living in sin'. I genuinely do believe that it would alienate some voters - and probably explains why Ed Milliband got married before the 2015 election.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403

    No snow here in the real north (Newcastle upon Tyne). I’ve driven down to York for a nice day out!

    Yer what? Geordies are practically Scots.

    The Real North is Yorkshire. Endex.
    That must be why you have Sheffield Midland station served by East Midlands Trains that run on the Midland Main Line.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    She said it on an interview on the TV which backs up her tweet..

    But you know better the marital status of her son than she does.

    Perhaps you could ask Clive Lewis the next time you meet him.
    People use the terms 'daughter /son in law' often when couples are just 'shacked up' or 'living in sin'. I genuinely do believe that it would alienate some voters - and probably explains why Ed Milliband got married before the 2015 election.
    I've only ever heard terms like 'my son's partner' being used.

    I agree with what you say about Ed, and I found it rather sad that he felt compelled to do this.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
    Justin tends to bang on about "bastards", probably because this ridiculous newfangled PC stuff has put wogs and poofters off limits.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited December 2017

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
    If you take the Andrea Loathsome view, NOT having a child out of wedlock would make her unfit for high office.
    I think Leadsom meant married mothers ie marriage first child second, not the other way around though I don't think most voters are as bothered about unmarried couples or single mothers now as they were in the 1950s, much as they are also less bothered about homosexuality or abortion or divorce.
  • No snow here in the real north (Newcastle upon Tyne). I’ve driven down to York for a nice day out!

    Yer what? Geordies are practically Scots.

    The Real North is Yorkshire. Endex.
    That must be why you have Sheffield Midland station served by East Midlands Trains that run on the Midland Main Line.
    We also have Northern and Trans-Pennines trains running out of Sheffield, you can't get more Northern than that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    edited December 2017
    @HYUFD

    I'm not going to go into too much detail (I hope!) but suffice it to say there are two versions of Woodhead's life. One is his carefully constructed propaganda image which is widely known. The other is the truth. Which is not so widely disseminated.

    Chris Woodhead held 3 teaching positions (not including a very brief temporary post) in the 1970s. In these he strongly espoused progressive teaching methods. Because he was a good talker, committed to these fashionable ideologies and very ambitious, he was rapidly promoted, until he left to go to Oxford as a lecturer in Education. From there in the 1980s he changed his mind and realised traditional methods had their good points. Because he was in an influential role he was made the second head of OFSTED and rapidly launched a crusade against failing teachers. From this post he was sacked due to union pressure in 2000.

    That's the official version. But behind there there is a lot going on. If he had not resigned from his second post at Newent, he would have been sacked. This was due to the exceptionally poor quality of his teaching. When a pupil hoaxed an IRA bomb scare to get out of his lesson because she hadn't done her homework the staff were astounded; one that the girl thought he would discipline her, and two, that he set them work. There was stupefaction when it was learned that he had got a post as Head of English at Gordano. This was however in the days before interview candidates had to teach, and as I have said he had a plausible manner.

    From Gordano he would also have been sacked had he not gone to Oxford for having an affair with a seventeen year old pupil. He denied it, but his wife confirmed his denial was a lie (as did Tony Robinson and several of his colleagues). You might with justice point out that wasn't illegal at the time (until 2003 in fact) but it would I think still have stopped him getting another post in teaching hence the move to Oxford.

    At Oxford he began to espouse traditional methods. Because they worked better than the methods he had used? Or because he saw that they were politically fashionable and hankered after personal advancement? I can't say for sure but it is telling to my mind how reluctant he was to admit his previous espousal of progressivism.
    (Continued)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    edited December 2017
    (Continued)
    This is not about him ruffling feathers among teachers - in 2000 I was not a teacher nor likely to be. This is about him being an unfit person to work in education. On that basis I maintain my charge of failed teacher and sex offender.

    How do I know this? Because my late mother knew Woodhead. To give you some idea of her views of him in 2005 she was torn - vote for Blair whom she regarded as a war criminal, or vote for Woodhead whom she regarded as a dangerous hypocrite. She lived in a Labour Tory marginal and regarded abstaining or voting third as a cop out. Eventually she did vote Conservative, but I know it was a decision that tormented her.

    OFSTED is very much founded in his image and it is bluntly a failure. All it has done is drive good teachers out of the profession and leave bad ones struggling still more. More would be achieved by making staff directly responsible to parents, although that is not a panacea.

    I do hope you found that of interest.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    More consolidation for the 'less popular than cancer and dementia' party.
    Ruth obviously hasn't been banging on about no Indy ref II enough.

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/939807958195752960

    Those Holyrood figures would see the SNP lose their majority with the Greens and Richard Leonard would likely become First Minister with Tory and LD confidence and supply.

    That would be the final nail in the coffin for indyref2 for the foreseeable future.
    But, but, but the constant cry of the PB Yoonuchs was that indyref2 is off the table for the foreseeable future. Does this mean that they (you) were mistaken previously?
    After June yes and of course Westminster would block it anyway. A unionist majority at the next Holyrood elections would confirm it.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    The Economist had a feature on marriage and how it's changing globally a few weeks ago. In summary, in countries where they have traditionally been arranged by families 'love marriage' is on the rise, and in the West the better off are continuing to marry (and less likely to divorce) but the poor are not.

    While having children outside marriage is not intrinsically wrong, it's statistically clear that unmarried couples are far more likely to break up before children reach maturity, with all the negative consequences that entails. I was very struck at university by how those of us with unmarried/divorced parents were very much the exception.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    ydoethur said:

    @HYUFD

    I'm not going to go into too much detail (I hope!) but suffice it to say there are two versions of Woodhead's life. One is his carefully constructed propaganda image which is widely known. The other is the truth. Which is not so widely disseminated.

    Chris Woodhead held 3 teaching positions (not including a very brief temporary post) in the 1970s. In these he strongly espoused progressive teaching methods. Because he was a good talker, committed to these fashionable ideologies and very ambitious, he was rapidly promoted, until he left to go to Oxford as a lecturer in Education. From there in the 1980s he changed his mind and realised traditional methods had their good points. Because he was in an influential role he was made the second head of OFSTED and rapidly launched a crusade against failing teachers. From this post he was sacked due to union pressure in 2000.

    That's the official version. But behind there there is a lot going on. If he had not resigned from his second post at Newent, he would have been sacked. This was due to the exceptionally poor quality of his teaching. When a pupil hoaxed an IRA bomb scare to get out of his lesson because she hadn't done her homework the staff were astounded; one that the girl thought he would discipline her, and two, that he set them work. There was stupefaction when it was learned that he had got a post as Head of English at Gordano. This was however in the days before interview candidates had to teach, and as I have said he had a plausible manner.

    From Gordano he would also have been sacked had he not gone to Oxford for having an affair with a seventeen year old pupil. He denied it, but his wife confirmed his denial was a lie (as did Tony Robinson and several of his colleagues). You might with justice point out that wasn't illegal at the time (until 2003 in fact) but it would I think still have stopped him getting another post in teaching hence the move to Oxford.

    At Oxford he began to espouse traditional methods. Because they worked better than the methods he had used? Or because he saw that they were politically fashionable and hankered after personal advancement? I can't say for sure but it is telling to my mind how reluctant he was to admit his previous espousal of progressivism.
    (Continued)

    Regardless he managed to make a career in education for decades and started the Cognito schools but as he is now deceased I don't think there is really much point discussing it further.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
    If you take the Andrea Loathsome view, NOT having a child out of wedlock would make her unfit for high office.
    I think Leadsom meant married mothers ie marriage first child second, not the other way around though I don't think most voters are as bothered about unmarried couples or single mothers now as they were in the 1950s, much as they are also less bothered about homosexuality or abortion or divorce.
    I would accept that the stigma is nothing like as strong as in the 1950s but it is still there amongst older people and those who are religious. Abortion is far from being socially acceptable - certainly as a means of contraception.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807

    Rexel56 said:

    Totally off topic... what is the BBC trying to do with its Christmas continuity film between programmes? Somebody has sat down and decided on the most multiculturally possible cartoon couple, possibly father and daughter, who perform a series of dance moves... the girl in particular looks like a classic, Disneyesque middle eastern, Asian, North American native, Inuit combination.

    Normally lacking any sympathy for the anti-immigrant crowd, I can understand why the national broadcaster bending over backwards not to include any hint of traditional, British culture in its Christmas imagery could irritate. Or am I wrong, does this kind of thing foster understanding and better relationships within communities?

    P.s. not snowing here but snow looking wonderful on Pen-y-Ghent, Ingleborough and Scafell all in view from the lounge.

    Do you live on the top of Whernside?
    Not quite, on the Yorkshire-Lancashire border just inside the Forest of Bowland... views to the Yorkshire peaks to the North East and across the Lune valley to the Southern Lakes in the NW... Scafell is 42 miles away but clearly in view today
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    HYUFD said:

    Regardless he managed to make a career in education for decades and started the Cognito schools but as he is now deceased I don't think there is really much point discussing it further.

    My point is he made his career - it was about him, not about education.

    Admittedly unlike the current boss of OFSTED he had been a teacher, but I don't think his quite limited experience, relentless desire to control things to make himself important and penchant for blowing with the wind were particular assets.

    And yet those still remain key problems with OFSTED.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
    If you take the Andrea Loathsome view, NOT having a child out of wedlock would make her unfit for high office.
    I think Leadsom meant married mothers ie marriage first child second, not the other way around though I don't think most voters are as bothered about unmarried couples or single mothers now as they were in the 1950s, much as they are also less bothered about homosexuality or abortion or divorce.
    I think most people are now generally relaxed about homosexuality, divorce and unmarried couples without children. I don't think most people are relaxed about single mothers, abortion and sexual infidelity (whether married or not).

    Perhaps relaxed isn't the right word.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    edited December 2017
    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
    If you take the Andrea Loathsome view, NOT having a child out of wedlock would make her unfit for high office.
    I think Leadsom meant married mothers ie marriage first child second, not the other way around though I don't think most voters are as bothered about unmarried couples or single mothers now as they were in the 1950s, much as they are also less bothered about homosexuality or abortion or divorce.
    I think most people are now generally relaxed about homosexuality, divorce and unmarried couples without children. I don't think most people are relaxed about single mothers, abortion and sexual infidelity (whether married or not).

    Perhaps relaxed isn't the right word.
    We had our first divorced PM as long ago as 1955. OK so he was a fiasco, but he still won an election.

    I can't say Rayner's teenage pregnancy would bother me much - I'm more concerned with her lack of evidence for competence noted upthread. I would be more concerned with say Truss, because she broke up somebody else's marriage. Even that however pales by comparison with the fact that she's a bit useless.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    RoyalBlue said:

    The Economist had a feature on marriage and how it's changing globally a few weeks ago. In summary, in countries where they have traditionally been arranged by families 'love marriage' is on the rise, and in the West the better off are continuing to marry (and less likely to divorce) but the poor are not.

    While having children outside marriage is not intrinsically wrong, it's statistically clear that unmarried couples are far more likely to break up before children reach maturity, with all the negative consequences that entails. I was very struck at university by how those of us with unmarried/divorced parents were very much the exception.

    It is nevertheless debatable which way the causality runs, or indeed whether it is just co-correlation
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Ok weather alert, it’s now snowing in York
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    ydoethur said:

    (Continued)
    This is not about him ruffling feathers among teachers - in 2000 I was not a teacher nor likely to be. This is about him being an unfit person to work in education. On that basis I maintain my charge of failed teacher and sex offender.

    How do I know this? Because my late mother knew Woodhead. To give you some idea of her views of him in 2005 she was torn - vote for Blair whom she regarded as a war criminal, or vote for Woodhead whom she regarded as a dangerous hypocrite. She lived in a Labour Tory marginal and regarded abstaining or voting third as a cop out. Eventually she did vote Conservative, but I know it was a decision that tormented her.

    OFSTED is very much founded in his image and it is bluntly a failure. All it has done is drive good teachers out of the profession and leave bad ones struggling still more. More would be achieved by making staff directly responsible to parents, although that is not a panacea.

    I do hope you found that of interest.

    Replace OFSTED and listen to people like yourself, I’m sure you’re familiar with the work of the Headteachers’ Roundtable but others might be interested in their excellent ideas on school improvement... https://headteachersroundtable.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/htrt-the-alternative-green-paper-schools-that-enable-all-to-thrive-and-flourish.pdf
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2017
    Max clifford has died....lots of celebs breath a sigh of relief.
  • RoyalBlue said:

    The Economist had a feature on marriage and how it's changing globally a few weeks ago. In summary, in countries where they have traditionally been arranged by families 'love marriage' is on the rise, and in the West the better off are continuing to marry (and less likely to divorce) but the poor are not.

    While having children outside marriage is not intrinsically wrong, it's statistically clear that unmarried couples are far more likely to break up before children reach maturity, with all the negative consequences that entails. I was very struck at university by how those of us with unmarried/divorced parents were very much the exception.

    It was an interesting article but there was more to it than that. It talked about the demise of what could generally be called marrying up. The middle and upper muddle classes are having children later and looking to education and careers first. The working and lower middle are not. Social advancement through marriage is disappearing as a result.

    Two tribes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
    If you take the Andrea Loathsome view, NOT having a child out of wedlock would make her unfit for high office.
    I think Leadsom meant married mothers ie marriage first child second, not the other way around though I don't think most voters are as bothered about unmarried couples or single mothers now as they were in the 1950s, much as they are also less bothered about homosexuality or abortion or divorce.
    I would accept that the stigma is nothing like as strong as in the 1950s but it is still there amongst older people and those who are religious. Abortion is far from being socially acceptable - certainly as a means of contraception.
    Contraception is not acceptable either if you follow strict Catholic doctrine
  • ydoethur said:

    We had our first divorced PM as long ago as 1955. OK so he was a fiasco, but he still won an election.

    I can't say Rayner's teenage pregnancy would bother me much - I'm more concerned with her lack of evidence for competence noted upthread. I would be more concerned with say Truss, because she broke up somebody else's marriage. Even that however pales by comparison with the fact that she's a bit useless.

    There's only one real bar to high office in my opinion.

    Liking pineapple on pizza.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
    If you take the Andrea Loathsome view, NOT having a child out of wedlock would make her unfit for high office.
    I think Leadsom meant married mothers ie marriage first child second, not the other way around though I don't think most voters are as bothered about unmarried couples or single mothers now as they were in the 1950s, much as they are also less bothered about homosexuality or abortion or divorce.
    I think most people are now generally relaxed about homosexuality, divorce and unmarried couples without children. I don't think most people are relaxed about single mothers, abortion and sexual infidelity (whether married or not).

    Perhaps relaxed isn't the right word.
    I tend to agree with that, though incline to the view that attitudes to single mothers depend on the circumstances. Single mothers who are divorced , separated - or indeed widowed - are viewed very differently
  • ydoethur said:

    We had our first divorced PM as long ago as 1955. OK so he was a fiasco, but he still won an election.

    I can't say Rayner's teenage pregnancy would bother me much - I'm more concerned with her lack of evidence for competence noted upthread. I would be more concerned with say Truss, because she broke up somebody else's marriage. Even that however pales by comparison with the fact that she's a bit useless.

    There's only one real bar to high office in my opinion.

    Liking pineapple on pizza.
    For me it is if you are a fan of radiohead.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,577
    ydoethur said:

    (Continued)
    This is not about him ruffling feathers among teachers - in 2000 I was not a teacher nor likely to be. This is about him being an unfit person to work in education. On that basis I maintain my charge of failed teacher and sex offender.

    How do I know this? Because my late mother knew Woodhead. To give you some idea of her views of him in 2005 she was torn - vote for Blair whom she regarded as a war criminal, or vote for Woodhead whom she regarded as a dangerous hypocrite. She lived in a Labour Tory marginal and regarded abstaining or voting third as a cop out. Eventually she did vote Conservative, but I know it was a decision that tormented her.

    OFSTED is very much founded in his image and it is bluntly a failure. All it has done is drive good teachers out of the profession and leave bad ones struggling still more. More would be achieved by making staff directly responsible to parents, although that is not a panacea..
    .

    An interesting prescription - but it rather assumes the presence of competent parents to make the staff responsible to. Plenty are capable of being every bit as arbitrary, assume because they were at school once upon a time that they understand education, and in some cases are part of the problem (a significant portion of serious behaviour problems at primary level can directly be ascribed to parenting... or lack of it).
    And I say that as a former parent governor...

  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Economist had a feature on marriage and how it's changing globally a few weeks ago. In summary, in countries where they have traditionally been arranged by families 'love marriage' is on the rise, and in the West the better off are continuing to marry (and less likely to divorce) but the poor are not.

    While having children outside marriage is not intrinsically wrong, it's statistically clear that unmarried couples are far more likely to break up before children reach maturity, with all the negative consequences that entails. I was very struck at university by how those of us with unmarried/divorced parents were very much the exception.

    It was an interesting article but there was more to it than that. It talked about the demise of what could generally be called marrying up. The middle and upper muddle classes are having children later and looking to education and careers first. The working and lower middle are not. Social advancement through marriage is disappearing as a result.

    Two tribes.
    I think that's overblown. Women are no longer barred from reaching the heights of most professions; that is the key difference. I don't think the past had more cross-class courtship than today.
This discussion has been closed.