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  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    edited December 2017
    I hesitate to misuse PB for what appears to be a commercial purpose, but has anyone else tried the energy company Pureplanet? They are an app-only provider which presumably saves them overheads, and I came across them (at comparethemeerkat): they seem vastly cheaper than other companies, presumably as a loss leader (they have a monthly fee but the monthly unit rate is a third less than my previous provider). I've taken the plunge, and appear to be saving £209/year on my modest flat. It does require that you have a smartphone.

    If anyone wants to try it, if you do it through http://referme.to/idfliko we will both get £25 Amazon vouchers (though Fox will tell us off for using Amazon, I know). It uses 100% renewable energy, so that's a consolation for us semi-principled lefties.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2017
    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
    If you take the Andrea Loathsome view, NOT having a child out of wedlock would make her unfit for high office.
    I think Leadsom meant married mothers ie marriage first child second, not the other way around though I don't think most voters are as bothered about unmarried couples or single mothers now as they were in the 1950s, much as they are also less bothered about homosexuality or abortion or divorce.
    I think most people are now generally relaxed about homosexuality, divorce and unmarried couples without children. I don't think most people are relaxed about single mothers, abortion and sexual infidelity (whether married or not).

    Perhaps relaxed isn't the right word.
    They are not relaxed about single mothers who don't work and rely solely on benefits which taxpayers have to pay for, yes, abortion they accept but maybe want to review the time limit from pregnancy in which you can have an abortion, sexual infidelity they still general disapprove of but it still happens frequently ( the French and Italians take a more relaxed view provided the faithful partner is not told about it or embarrassed)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    Max Clifford has died. In hospital, where he’d been taken from prison.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2017

    Max Clifford has died. In hospital, where he’d been taken from prison.

    He once spoke at my school and even then had a few titbits on Dustin Hoffman which now seem not miles from the mark. Clifford was certainly no saint but he was sharp and I would not be surprised to see he had written a memoir in prison containing more than a few bombshells, I would suggest a number of celebs will be rather anxious this afternoon
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    edited December 2017
    justin124 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    I don't think the country will vote for someone who had a kid out of wedlock - and who opely boasts about her son having followed her immoral example.

    Apart from looking like a complete idiot, at least you could get your facts right.

    I believe her son is married.

    https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/933372836693135360

    As an aside, the country has had a PM who married a divorcee, and it has gone to the dogs since.
    I am not persuaded you are correct about the son's status.
    I'm genuinely interested to know what the fact that she had a child "out of wedlock" (how quaint!) or the marital status of her son has to do with her prospects for higher office?
    If you take the Andrea Loathsome view, NOT having a child out of wedlock would make her unfit for high office.
    I think Leadsom meant married mothers ie marriage first child second, not the other way around though I don't think most voters are as bothered about unmarried couples or single mothers now as they were in the 1950s, much as they are also less bothered about homosexuality or abortion or divorce.
    I think most people are now generally relaxed about homosexuality, divorce and unmarried couples without children. I don't think most people are relaxed about single mothers, abortion and sexual infidelity (whether married or not).

    Perhaps relaxed isn't the right word.
    I tend to agree with that, though incline to the view that attitudes to single mothers depend on the circumstances. Single mothers who are divorced , separated - or indeed widowed - are viewed very differently
    One of my nieces, a sisters daughter, was once part of a group ‘being students’ at Uni. Up before the hall manager, or whatever she was called, one of the girls was told that, comng from a good family, she should have known better. Such behaviour was more likely from my niece, who came from a broken home. My sister was furious; she’d been widowed when said niece was about three, and was known as a strict mother.
  • HYUFD said:

    Max Clifford has died. In hospital, where he’d been taken from prison.

    He once spoke at my school and even then had a few titbits on Dustin Hoffman which now seem not miles from the mark. Clifford was certainly no saint but he was sharp and I would not be surprised to see he had written a memoir in prison containing more than a few bombshells, I would suggest a number of celebs will be rather anxious this afternoon
    The Louis Theroux special on him was fascinating, not in a good way.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    You know the weather is a trifle inclement when...

    ...to light the stove you have to dig out the wood store.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807

    I hesitate to misuse PB for what appears to be a commercial purpose, but has anyone else tried the energy company Pureplanet? They are an app-only provider which presumably saves them overheads, and I came across them (at comparethemeerkat): they seem vastly cheaper than other companies, presumably as a loss leader (they have a monthly fee but the monthly unit rate is a third less than my previous provider). I've taken the plunge, and appear to be saving £209/year on my modest flat. It does require that you have a smartphone.

    If anyone wants to try it, if you do it through http://referme.to/idfliko we will both get £25 Amazon vouchers (though Fox will tell us off for using Amazon, I know). It uses 100% renewable energy, so that's a consolation for us semi-principled lefties.

    Looking at their website, they don’t use 100% renewables - rather they contribute to carbon reduction schemes in proportion to the natural gas that is used in generation of the power they sell... they claim 0% nuclear, but presumably if they sell more “renewable” energy on a given day, somebody somewhere is having to consume more nuclear generated power as a result...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    Rexel56 said:

    ydoethur said:

    (Continued)
    This is not about him ruffling feathers among teachers - in 2000 I was not a teacher nor likely to be. This is about him being an unfit person to work in education. On that basis I maintain my charge of failed teacher and sex offender.

    How do I know this? Because my late mother knew Woodhead. To give you some idea of her views of him in 2005 she was torn - vote for Blair whom she regarded as a war criminal, or vote for Woodhead whom she regarded as a dangerous hypocrite. She lived in a Labour Tory marginal and regarded abstaining or voting third as a cop out. Eventually she did vote Conservative, but I know it was a decision that tormented her.

    OFSTED is very much founded in his image and it is bluntly a failure. All it has done is drive good teachers out of the profession and leave bad ones struggling still more. More would be achieved by making staff directly responsible to parents, although that is not a panacea.

    I do hope you found that of interest.

    Replace OFSTED and listen to people like yourself, I’m sure you’re familiar with the work of the Headteachers’ Roundtable but others might be interested in their excellent ideas on school improvement... https://headteachersroundtable.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/htrt-the-alternative-green-paper-schools-that-enable-all-to-thrive-and-flourish.pdf
    An old friend of mine, in teaching for forty years and strictly non-partisan in political matters (he despised all politicians quite impartially) once told me that of all Secretaries of State for education, only John MacGregor had ever shown any sign of listening to teachers.

    He was reshuffled within 18 months.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    ydoethur said:

    You know the weather is a trifle inclement when...

    ...to light the stove you have to dig out the wood store.

    Many years ago, when we were first married we had a little flat halfway up the Pennines. Heavy snow one night, and we were cut off from our (just) outside toilet. However, then the temperature dropped to about -10 and we couldn’t iuse the toilet anyway. Bath froze solid, too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733

    ydoethur said:

    You know the weather is a trifle inclement when...

    ...to light the stove you have to dig out the wood store.

    Many years ago, when we were first married we had a little flat halfway up the Pennines. Heavy snow one night, and we were cut off from our (just) outside toilet. However, then the temperature dropped to about -10 and we couldn’t iuse the toilet anyway. Bath froze solid, too.
    OK, OK, you win on that one!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    Rexel56 said:

    ydoethur said:

    (Continued)
    This is not about him ruffling feathers among teachers - in 2000 I was not a teacher nor likely to be. This is about him being an unfit person to work in education. On that basis I maintain my charge of failed teacher and sex offender.

    How do I know this? Because my late mother knew Woodhead. To give you some idea of her views of him in 2005 she was torn - vote for Blair whom she regarded as a war criminal, or vote for Woodhead whom she regarded as a dangerous hypocrite. She lived in a Labour Tory marginal and regarded abstaining or voting third as a cop out. Eventually she did vote Conservative, but I know it was a decision that tormented her.

    OFSTED is very much founded in his image and it is bluntly a failure. All it has done is drive good teachers out of the profession and leave bad ones struggling still more. More would be achieved by making staff directly responsible to parents, although that is not a panacea.

    I do hope you found that of interest.

    Replace OFSTED and listen to people like yourself, I’m sure you’re familiar with the work of the Headteachers’ Roundtable but others might be interested in their excellent ideas on school improvement... https://headteachersroundtable.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/htrt-the-alternative-green-paper-schools-that-enable-all-to-thrive-and-flourish.pdf
    An old friend of mine, in teaching for forty years and strictly non-partisan in political matters (he despised all politicians quite impartially) once told me that of all Secretaries of State for education, only John MacGregor had ever shown any sign of listening to teachers.

    He was reshuffled within 18 months.
    Similarly, Frank Dobson is the only Minister of Health in my carrer that was a net asset, the worst was Patricia Hewitt, closely followed by Alan Milburn.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    ydoethur said:

    Rexel56 said:

    ydoethur said:

    (Continued)
    This is not about him ruffling feathers among teachers - in 2000 I was not a teacher nor likely to be. This is about him being an unfit person to work in education. On that basis I maintain my charge of failed teacher and sex offender.

    How do I know this? Because my late mother knew Woodhead. To give you some idea of her views of him in 2005 she was torn - vote for Blair whom she regarded as a war criminal, or vote for Woodhead whom she regarded as a dangerous hypocrite. She lived in a Labour Tory marginal and regarded abstaining or voting third as a cop out. Eventually she did vote Conservative, but I know it was a decision that tormented her.

    OFSTED is very much founded in his image and it is bluntly a failure. All it has done is drive good teachers out of the profession and leave bad ones struggling still more. More would be achieved by making staff directly responsible to parents, although that is not a panacea.

    I do hope you found that of interest.

    Replace OFSTED and listen to people like yourself, I’m sure you’re familiar with the work of the Headteachers’ Roundtable but others might be interested in their excellent ideas on school improvement... https://headteachersroundtable.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/htrt-the-alternative-green-paper-schools-that-enable-all-to-thrive-and-flourish.pdf
    An old friend of mine, in teaching for forty years and strictly non-partisan in political matters (he despised all politicians quite impartially) once told me that of all Secretaries of State for education, only John MacGregor had ever shown any sign of listening to teachers.

    He was reshuffled within 18 months.
    Similarly, Frank Dobson is the only Minister of Health in my carrer that was a net asset, the worst was Patricia Hewitt, closely followed by Alan Milburn.
    Kenneth Robinson was good at Health, too.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    You know the weather is a trifle inclement when...

    ...to light the stove you have to dig out the wood store.

    Many years ago, when we were first married we had a little flat halfway up the Pennines. Heavy snow one night, and we were cut off from our (just) outside toilet. However, then the temperature dropped to about -10 and we couldn’t iuse the toilet anyway. Bath froze solid, too.
    OK, OK, you win on that one!

    It was an awful winter. Snow started early January in the NW, rapidly followed, as I said, by a deep freeze. As far as we were concerned, newly married and happy with challenges we just got on with it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    edited December 2017

    ydoethur said:

    Rexel56 said:

    ydoethur said:

    (Continued)
    This is not about him ruffling feathers among teachers - in 2000 I was not a teacher nor likely to be. This is about him being an unfit person to work in education. On that basis I maintain my charge of failed teacher and sex offender.

    How do I know this? Because my late mother knew Woodhead. To give you some idea of her views of him in 2005 she was torn - vote for Blair whom she regarded as a war criminal, or vote for Woodhead whom she regarded as a dangerous hypocrite. She lived in a Labour Tory marginal and regarded abstaining or voting third as a cop out. Eventually she did vote Conservative, but I know it was a decision that tormented her.

    OFSTED is very much founded in his image and it is bluntly a failure. All it has done is drive good teachers out of the profession and leave bad ones struggling still more. More would be achieved by making staff directly responsible to parents, although that is not a panacea.

    I do hope you found that of interest.

    Replace OFSTED and listen to people like yourself, I’m sure you’re familiar with the work of the Headteachers’ Roundtable but others might be interested in their excellent ideas on school improvement... https://headteachersroundtable.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/htrt-the-alternative-green-paper-schools-that-enable-all-to-thrive-and-flourish.pdf
    An old friend of mine, in teaching for forty years and strictly non-partisan in political matters (he despised all politicians quite impartially) once told me that of all Secretaries of State for education, only John MacGregor had ever shown any sign of listening to teachers.

    He was reshuffled within 18 months.
    Similarly, Frank Dobson is the only Minister of Health in my carrer that was a net asset, the worst was Patricia Hewitt, closely followed by Alan Milburn.
    I must confess I permitted myself, even as a Remainer, a wry smile when I heard politicians complaining the Brexit voters were ignoring the experts. After all that's what they've been doing for years on health, education, transport...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Economist had a feature on marriage and how it's changing globally a few weeks ago. In summary, in countries where they have traditionally been arranged by families 'love marriage' is on the rise, and in the West the better off are continuing to marry (and less likely to divorce) but the poor are not.

    While having children outside marriage is not intrinsically wrong, it's statistically clear that unmarried couples are far more likely to break up before children reach maturity, with all the negative consequences that entails. I was very struck at university by how those of us with unmarried/divorced parents were very much the exception.

    It was an interesting article but there was more to it than that. It talked about the demise of what could generally be called marrying up. The middle and upper muddle classes are having children later and looking to education and careers first. The working and lower middle are not. Social advancement through marriage is disappearing as a result.

    Two tribes.
    I think that's overblown. Women are no longer barred from reaching the heights of most professions; that is the key difference. I don't think the past had more cross-class courtship than today.
    It did. Frequently professional men married working class secretaries. Now, professionals usually marry each other.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673
    My account is fixed and I can quote again , what have I missed in last month or so. How I wanted to post on the brilliance of those Tory negotiators. Price was £20 Billion and they got it for only £40 Billion, magic. That and keeping us in FOM and customs union with a double bluff , whoopee.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    A few flakes of snow* just starting to fall in Skipton as we are about to head out for the Christmas Market and carol concert.

    *Notice how I deftly avoided using the word 'snowflake'!
  • When will people learn, gulf states don’t do namby pamby and they don’t listen to bullshit excuses...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5164479/Liverpool-man-jailed-two-years-Dubai-cannabis.html
  • A few flakes of snow* just starting to fall in Skipton as we are about to head out for the Christmas Market and carol concert.

    *Notice how I deftly avoided using the word 'snowflake'!

    Most utterly ridiculous decision if the year by a mile - Lincoln City council have cancelled the last day if the annual Christmas Market because of about an inch of snow. There are thousands of extremely pissed off visitors and traders.
  • A few flakes of snow* just starting to fall in Skipton as we are about to head out for the Christmas Market and carol concert.

    *Notice how I deftly avoided using the word 'snowflake'!

    Most utterly ridiculous decision if the year by a mile - Lincoln City council have cancelled the last day if the annual Christmas Market because of about an inch of snow. There are thousands of extremely pissed off visitors and traders.
    That's shocking. If I was a trader there I'd be wanting the City Council to give compensation for the lost income. Besides what could be more Festive than snow at a Christmas market?
  • For those that do not know*:

    My mother - being Irish-Catholic divorcee - could not marry my Cypriot-father (back in thoses days). Without detailing further events I would like to remind the 'moral' to think beyond their sheltered lives.

    Anyone who wishes to take exception with this then, please rethink; Despite 'the sins' the family is doing quite well. God forbid you provoke the extended part of our family...

    * You obviously knew that.
  • malcolmg said:

    My account is fixed and I can quote again , what have I missed in last month or so. How I wanted to post on the brilliance of those Tory negotiators. Price was £20 Billion and they got it for only £40 Billion, magic. That and keeping us in FOM and customs union with a double bluff , whoopee.

    Yes, it seems we have paid something of that order for something we already had.

    You couldn't make it up.
  • Whatever happened to Arsenal slick quick inventive passing ....they look more like England , slow slow sideways sideways...
  • The best Christmas market story of the past few years...stoke city council decided to have a Moroccan themed Christmas market complete with camel rides! Because we all know how world famous the Moroccans are for their Christmas celebrations!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    malcolmg said:

    My account is fixed and I can quote again , what have I missed in last month or so. How I wanted to post on the brilliance of those Tory negotiators. Price was £20 Billion and they got it for only £40 Billion, magic. That and keeping us in FOM and customs union with a double bluff , whoopee.

    Yes, it seems we have paid something of that order for something we already had.

    You couldn't make it up.
    But it's not paying for that, it's the UK's outstanding obligations to the EU.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    malcolmg said:

    My account is fixed and I can quote again , what have I missed in last month or so. How I wanted to post on the brilliance of those Tory negotiators. Price was £20 Billion and they got it for only £40 Billion, magic. That and keeping us in FOM and customs union with a double bluff , whoopee.

    Welcome back malc.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2017
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    My account is fixed and I can quote again , what have I missed in last month or so. How I wanted to post on the brilliance of those Tory negotiators. Price was £20 Billion and they got it for only £40 Billion, magic. That and keeping us in FOM and customs union with a double bluff , whoopee.

    Yes, it seems we have paid something of that order for something we already had.

    You couldn't make it up.
    But it's not paying for that, it's the UK's outstanding obligations to the EU.
    And half of that is the 2 years money for the transition period membership, which we would be paying if we stayed.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    edited December 2017

    An interesting Sunday thread (no snurr on Teesside)

    On Abbott I sarcastically tipped her as next Labour leader as being exactly the right sort the howl at the moon brigade in the party think should be leader - right-on, a woman, not-white, pliable. Thornberry wants it but as others have pointed out her lack of anti-semitism may be a problem. Long-Bailey / Rayner etc aren't enough of a public figure (even I'd struggle to describe RL-B, she's one of these blowaway lightweights who somehow find themselves elevated). Abbott still a decent prospect to pay out for TSE's longlonglong-shot bet

    On Corbyn does anyone remember that Doctor Who episode where Trigger off Only Fools and Horses is the man who invents the Cybermen? He needs to keep his ageing body so that he can complete his plan to reshape the world. Thats Corbyn now - Lansman will find someone who can keep The Messiah going well into his 90s

    "Age of Steel" (fantrailer) (wiki), the second episode in a two-parter, the first of which was "Rise of the Cybermen" (fantrailer) (wiki)

    The episode is made slightly funny by the fact that Lloyd-Pack and Tennant played father-and-son Barty Crouch Sr and Jr in the Harry Potter films
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    You know the weather is a trifle inclement when...

    ...to light the stove you have to dig out the wood store.

    Many years ago, when we were first married we had a little flat halfway up the Pennines. Heavy snow one night, and we were cut off from our (just) outside toilet. However, then the temperature dropped to about -10 and we couldn’t iuse the toilet anyway. Bath froze solid, too.
    OK, OK, you win on that one!

    It was an awful winter. Snow started early January in the NW, rapidly followed, as I said, by a deep freeze. As far as we were concerned, newly married and happy with challenges we just got on with it.
    When my Dad was born his mum was living in an unheated cottage in Wales. The doctor couldn't make it through the blizzard, but phoned to say that she should put my Dad in the bottom left of the Aga to keep him warm...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    Roger said:

    Just listened to Labour's business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey being interviewed by John Piennar. It was obvious she either didn't understand Labours nationalisation plans or if she did she made them sound both unappealing and nonsensical. If Corbyn ever expects to be PM they're going to need a serious rethink in both policies and personel.

    I call her Rebecca Short-Trousers for a reason. Lightweight.
    Rebecca Long-Drop.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    More consolidation for the 'less popular than cancer and dementia' party.
    Ruth obviously hasn't been banging on about no Indy ref II enough.

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/939807958195752960

    Having an English leader gives SLAB a boost. Who'd have thunk it!
    Looking forward to the SNP trying that ploy....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    edited December 2017
    I have two sheds.

    One is sheltered from the wind and the snow is on its roof is now nine inches deep.

    The other has been exposed to it and the snow is half an inch deep.

    And it is still snowing although the wind has died away.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited December 2017
    Hope it doesn’t snow/rain too much tomorrow. I have a lot of standing outside to do :(
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Pong said:
    I am shocked. I thought newspaper comments sections were places of reasoned debate....
  • ydoethur said:

    I have two sheds.

    Is your real name Arthur Jackson... (obscure Python joke...)
  • VinnyVinny Posts: 48
    Brilliant visionary? Or a lucky guess! I suppose that even the most inept and incompetent of people must make at least one correct guess in their lifetime!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2017
    RobD said:

    Pong said:
    I am shocked. I thought newspaper comments sections were places of reasoned debate....
    Next somebody will be telling me that YouTube comments are filled with hate.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Economist had a feature on marriage and how it's changing globally a few weeks ago. In summary, in countries where they have traditionally been arranged by families 'love marriage' is on the rise, and in the West the better off are continuing to marry (and less likely to divorce) but the poor are not.

    While having children outside marriage is not intrinsically wrong, it's statistically clear that unmarried couples are far more likely to break up before children reach maturity, with all the negative consequences that entails. I was very struck at university by how those of us with unmarried/divorced parents were very much the exception.

    It was an interesting article but there was more to it than that. It talked about the demise of what could generally be called marrying up. The middle and upper muddle classes are having children later and looking to education and careers first. The working and lower middle are not. Social advancement through marriage is disappearing as a result.

    Two tribes.
    I think that's overblown. Women are no longer barred from reaching the heights of most professions; that is the key difference. I don't think the past had more cross-class courtship than today.
    It did. Frequently professional men married working class secretaries. Now, professionals usually marry each other.
    Middle class Secretaries. Similarly most Doctors married Nurses or secretaries, now they marry other doctors.
  • NEW THREAD

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    I have two sheds.

    One is sheltered from the wind and the snow is on its roof is now nine inches deep.

    The other has been exposed to it and the snow is half an inch deep.

    And it is still snowing although the wind has died away.

    So it's" Two sheds" @ydoethur, like "Two Jags" Prescott?

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Economist had a feature on marriage and how it's changing globally a few weeks ago. In summary, in countries where they have traditionally been arranged by families 'love marriage' is on the rise, and in the West the better off are continuing to marry (and less likely to divorce) but the poor are not.

    While having children outside marriage is not intrinsically wrong, it's statistically clear that unmarried couples are far more likely to break up before children reach maturity, with all the negative consequences that entails. I was very struck at university by how those of us with unmarried/divorced parents were very much the exception.

    It was an interesting article but there was more to it than that. It talked about the demise of what could generally be called marrying up. The middle and upper muddle classes are having children later and looking to education and careers first. The working and lower middle are not. Social advancement through marriage is disappearing as a result.

    Two tribes.
    I think that's overblown. Women are no longer barred from reaching the heights of most professions; that is the key difference. I don't think the past had more cross-class courtship than today.
    It did. Frequently professional men married working class secretaries. Now, professionals usually marry each other.
    Middle class Secretaries. Similarly most Doctors married Nurses or secretaries, now they marry other doctors.
    Is this not because the sort of women who used to be secretaries or nurses are more likely to be other professionals or doctors themselves? It didn't take me long as a trainee solicitor in the early 80s to realise that several of the secretaries really ought to have been solicitors themselves and that you ignored their advice at your peril!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    edited December 2017

    ydoethur said:

    I have two sheds.

    Is your real name Arthur Jackson... (obscure Python joke...)
    If you Cleese, I am a Chap, man. I intend to be Idle all afternoon as my fence Palin disappears beneath the snow, to keep up with the Jones.

    OK, with Gilliam I admit defeat!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733

    ydoethur said:

    I have two sheds.

    One is sheltered from the wind and the snow is on its roof is now nine inches deep.

    The other has been exposed to it and the snow is half an inch deep.

    And it is still snowing although the wind has died away.

    So it's" Two sheds" @ydoethur, like "Two Jags" Prescott?

    One's the wood store, one's the tool shed. I look forward to jokes about which one I use most :smiley:
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Fishing said:

    stevef said:

    Neil Kinnock's Labour was ahead (often way ahead) in the polls of Thatcher's Tories for 8 out of the 9 years he was leader. Unlike Corbyn he won Tory marginal seats on huge swings at by elections.

    And he lost both general elections. As will Corbyn.

    Hope you're right. But don't forget the Conservatives in those days had a decent leader. Actually, a remarkable one.
    The Conservatives in those days had a deeply unpopular and highly despised leader who often fell to depths of polling that May has never reached. People put up with her with clenched teeth as they are doing now with the Tories.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Economist had a feature on marriage and how it's changing globally a few weeks ago. In summary, in countries where they have traditionally been arranged by families 'love marriage' is on the rise, and in the West the better off are continuing to marry (and less likely to divorce) but the poor are not.

    While having children outside marriage is not intrinsically wrong, it's statistically clear that unmarried couples are far more likely to break up before children reach maturity, with all the negative consequences that entails. I was very struck at university by how those of us with unmarried/divorced parents were very much the exception.

    It was an interesting article but there was more to it than that. It talked about the demise of what could generally be called marrying up. The middle and upper muddle classes are having children later and looking to education and careers first. The working and lower middle are not. Social advancement through marriage is disappearing as a result.

    Two tribes.
    I think that's overblown. Women are no longer barred from reaching the heights of most professions; that is the key difference. I don't think the past had more cross-class courtship than today.
    It did. Frequently professional men married working class secretaries. Now, professionals usually marry each other.
    Middle class Secretaries. Similarly most Doctors married Nurses or secretaries, now they marry other doctors.
    Is this not because the sort of women who used to be secretaries or nurses are more likely to be other professionals or doctors themselves? It didn't take me long as a trainee solicitor in the early 80s to realise that several of the secretaries really ought to have been solicitors themselves and that you ignored their advice at your peril!
    Yes, I think so. My mum was a secretary turned housewife after marriage, as was her sister. All 5 of their children have done very well in their careers. One of my cousins has a company turning over £700 million pa. We all went to comprehensives too.

    I agree with the Economist though, the decline of stable marriages in the WWC (and Afro-Caribean), is a major factor holding back social mobility. My only inheritance is beyond price, good genes, and a supportive loving parents.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    Neil Kinnock's Labour was ahead (often way ahead) in the polls of Thatcher's Tories for 8 out of the 9 years he was leader. Unlike Corbyn he won Tory marginal seats on huge swings at by elections.

    And he lost both general elections. As will Corbyn.

    Of the final 1992 General election polls all but Gallup (with just a 0.5% Tory lead) had Labour ahead yet Major got a majority of 21 and a Tory lead of 7% over Kinnock's Labour once all the results were in.

    Despite 2015 and 2017, 1992 remains the worst forecast general election ever by UK pollsters, at least in 2015 half and in 2017 all the pollsters had the Tories ahead even if they underestimated them in 2015 and overestimated them in 2017.
    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1987-1992
    Labour had double digit leads in 1986 and 1991, yet still lost the general election (as did Miliband in 2012).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    Neil Kinnock's Labour was ahead (often way ahead) in the polls of Thatcher's Tories for 8 out of the 9 years he was leader. Unlike Corbyn he won Tory marginal seats on huge swings at by elections.

    And he lost both general elections. As will Corbyn.

    Of the final 1992 General election polls all but Gallup (with just a 0.5% Tory lead) had Labour ahead yet Major got a majority of 21 and a Tory lead of 7% over Kinnock's Labour once all the results were in.

    Despite 2015 and 2017, 1992 remains the worst forecast general election ever by UK pollsters, at least in 2015 half and in 2017 all the pollsters had the Tories ahead even if they underestimated them in 2015 and overestimated them in 2017.
    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1987-1992
    Labour had double digit leads in 1986 and 1991, yet still lost the general election (as did Miliband in 2012).
    Tories had double digit leads as recently as April 2017, yet lost seats at the GE.

    We live in volatile, even feverish times politically. Precedent is pretty meaningless.
  • More consolidation for the 'less popular than cancer and dementia' party.
    Ruth obviously hasn't been banging on about no Indy ref II enough.

    https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/939807958195752960

    Having an English leader gives SLAB a boost. Who'd have thunk it!
    Looking forward to the SNP trying that ploy....
    Way ahead of you, as ever. The first president of the SNP was born in London & educated at Harrow.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    My account is fixed and I can quote again , what have I missed in last month or so. How I wanted to post on the brilliance of those Tory negotiators. Price was £20 Billion and they got it for only £40 Billion, magic. That and keeping us in FOM and customs union with a double bluff , whoopee.

    Yes, it seems we have paid something of that order for something we already had.

    You couldn't make it up.
    But it's not paying for that, it's the UK's outstanding obligations to the EU.
    Tories just cannot help fibbing, it is in their genes
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    Neil Kinnock's Labour was ahead (often way ahead) in the polls of Thatcher's Tories for 8 out of the 9 years he was leader. Unlike Corbyn he won Tory marginal seats on huge swings at by elections.

    And he lost both general elections. As will Corbyn.

    Of the final 1992 General election polls all but Gallup (with just a 0.5% Tory lead) had Labour ahead yet Major got a majority of 21 and a Tory lead of 7% over Kinnock's Labour once all the results were in.

    Despite 2015 and 2017, 1992 remains the worst forecast general election ever by UK pollsters, at least in 2015 half and in 2017 all the pollsters had the Tories ahead even if they underestimated them in 2015 and overestimated them in 2017.
    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/historical-polls/voting-intention-1987-1992
    Labour had double digit leads in 1986 and 1991, yet still lost the general election (as did Miliband in 2012).
    Though final 1987 polls had the Tories clearly ahead
This discussion has been closed.