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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    I'm an enemy of a) meaningless gesture politics and b) c**** trying to overturn Brexit.

    You choose which camp you fall into.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited December 2017
    Storm in a tea cup

    A government defeat in parliament is not a storm in a teacup.

    In the context of Brexit a narrow defeat is a storm in the tea cup.



    Democracy.

    Agree to an extent but if the motive is to stop Brexit that is an affront to democracy.

    However, the defeat will not result in a no confidence vote or a GE, so a storm in a tea cup it is

    Hold on a minute. Members of parliament were elected since the Euro referendum. If you believe in democracy in a parliamentary democracy then freshly elected MPs have the mandate. It just truly shows the bad judgement of David Cameron in holding an advisory referendum on that issue. Any member of parliament who dares to champion the best interests of electors in their constituency is now deemed to be an affront to democracy. This is crazy. It is like saying the 1975 vote stands for all time and 2016 should not count. The Brexit crowd have failed to deliver the golden panacea they said would be achievable if the UK voted to leave. Now that it is shown to be total bollocks the nut cases still want to leave the EU what ever the cost. Mad. Any reasoned opposition to this asinine state of affairs is said to be anti democratic - well I tell you what lets have another referendum on the crap deal on offer.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    RobD said:

    Sacked for defying a three lined whip? I’m not exactly surprised...
    She’s created yet another needless enemy.

    But don’t worry her majority is so huge, she won’t have to worry about another malcontent on the backbenches.
    ?Precedents for not sacking a minister who ignores a 3 line whip?
  • Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    I'm an enemy of a) meaningless gesture politics and b) c**** trying to overturn Brexit.

    You choose which camp you fall into.
    Let Parliament take back control!
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    Sacked for defying a three lined whip? I’m not exactly surprised...
    She’s created yet another needless enemy.

    But don’t worry her majority is so huge, she won’t have to worry about another malcontent on the backbenches.
    ?Precedents for not sacking a minister who ignores a 3 line whip?
    I’d list them all but Star Wars starts soon.

    But first of all he’s not a minister.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    RobD said:

    Sacked for defying a three lined whip? I’m not exactly surprised...
    She’s created yet another needless enemy.

    But don’t worry her majority is so huge, she won’t have to worry about another malcontent on the backbenches.
    Suspect quite a few of the rebels would lose their seats in a GE
    Wimbledon looks good for a proper tilt from Labour next time round.
  • Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    I'm an enemy of a) meaningless gesture politics and b) c**** trying to overturn Brexit.

    You choose which camp you fall into.
    Calm down dear, no one’s trying to overturn Brexit.

    You Leavers said Leaving would be easy and the EU would be desperate to do a deal.

    You have nothing to worry about.
  • My irony meter just died.

    That moron Dorries criticising others for being disloyal to a Tory PM.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Topping, enclaves, rising crime/terrorism, little integration, rowing back of crucial values (it's already happening with free speech).

    Mr. Tyndall, any chance that MPs will try and make the choice between the deal or status quo (ie remaining)?

    How does the number of terrorist incidents in Germany vs here stack up?
    It is not just the number of terrorist incidents that is important - it is other incidents and the reaction of the authorities to them. That is where the real problems lie.
    A senior journo friend of mine has just spent two years working for the German equivalent of the BBC (English-language version). He started in the beeb and he's a dyed-in-the-wool lefty. Hates Tories. We have happy arguments all the time, usually about politics, sometimes rugby (he's a Taff). All in all he is a top bloke.

    He said he was utterly shocked, when he moved to Berlin, to discover how much the news there is neutered and censored to fit a politically correct, centrist social democrat version of events, especially anything to do with race, asylum seekers, refugees, Islam. There is no attempt at balance, they don't even pretend to give both sides to an argument.

    Stories of, say, refugees raping German women are simply not covered. "Too controversial". If a story is SO big it cannot, in the end, despite the best efforts of press and police, be entirely ignored (e.g. the Cologne New Year refugee rape spree), then it is presented in the most Guardian way possible: the story is "Oh no, now there will be a rightwing backlash", or "pity the poor refugees getting blamed for the trivial, laddish misbehaviour of a few". That's it.

    My friend was so incensed by the lack of balance (and recall he is leftwing) he complained, e.g. he asked: why can't we have a spokesman here from AfD, to give an alternative view? And he was simply told to fuck off, this is Germany, this is how we do things, we don't want to give Nazis airtime, refugees are brilliant, go away.

    He has now left, in despair, and runs the entire broadcasting network on a sunny rich Caribbean island, and good luck to him.

    I think the situation in the German press is much more nuanced and fair, but German broadcast media is hideously biased to a liberal bien pensant point of view, and TV is where most Germans get their news. And Germans are much more regimented in their thinking and will follow a party line much more dutifully than bolshy Brits.

    That's how Merkel has got herself re-elected despite her migration disasters. Germans are not told the news. They are told what to think.
    Your friend was the only one who could work that out, was he?

    What a uniquely brilliant mind he must have.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    SeanT said:

    blueblue said:

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mr. Topping, enclaves, rising crime/terrorism, little integration, rowing back of crucial values (it's already happening with free speech).

    Mr. Tyndall, any chance that MPs will try and make the choice between the deal or status quo (ie remaining)?

    How does the number of terrorist incidents in Germany vs here stack up?
    It is not just the number of terrorist incidents that is important - it is other incidents and the reaction of the authorities to them. That is where the real problems lie.
    A senior journo friend of mine has just spent two years working for the German equivalent of the BBC (English-language version). He started in the beeb and he's a dyed-in-the-wool lefty. Hates Tories. We have happy arguments all the time, usually about politics, sometimes rugby (he's a Taff). All in all he is a top bloke.


    That's how Merkel has got herself re-elected despite her migration disasters. Germans are not told the news. They are told what to think.
    It makes one despair of Western civilization. I only hope I live long enough to enjoy the schadenfreude of watching what happens to leftism once their friends start dictating social policy.
    Watch Sweden. The situation there is even more extreme and bizarre than Germany (or Britain, France, or Holland for that matter). Sweden is the ultimate collision between a bien pensant pro-multiculti elite - with a proud liberal past - and a terrifying, stupefying migrant reality which makes the liberals look murderously deluded, if not downright traitorous.

    And it is getting worse.
    No kidding. The multiculti-cult is on course for the inevitable result of all counterproductive evolutionary aberrations - extinction.
  • ‪Remember Montie is always wrong, as we learned when he was Chief of Staff to IDS when he was leader. ‬

    https://twitter.com/montie/status/941029072691449856

    I'd have thought the rest of Europe would be looking with envious eyes, as we demonstrate that even Brexit won't diminish our commitment to democratic representation and the supremacy of parliament. Why isn't Monty rejoicing?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Brexit will unite the Tory party - how’s that theory doing anyway?

    Snark aside - it’s strange that May has allowed this to happen.
    If she knew she would lose, she should have made sufficient concessions.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    She's obviously forgetting that she's voted 38 times against the Cons since 2010...

    http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?mpid=1397
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    Sacked for defying a three lined whip? I’m not exactly surprised...
    She’s created yet another needless enemy.

    But don’t worry her majority is so huge, she won’t have to worry about another malcontent on the backbenches.
    ?Precedents for not sacking a minister who ignores a 3 line whip?
    Im sure its happened. And its a party not government position. But its clearly not unexpected or unreasonable. Dorries is being unreasonable.
  • That would make Momentum blush.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Two suspended Labour MPs - Jared OMara and Ivan Lewis - failed to vote.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited December 2017
    TM has only herself to blame for this mess. Well, Lynton Crosby, also.

    Tories shoulda kicked her out on June 9th. If she had any dignity she would have stepped down after failing to get the mandate she deemed essential.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    I'm an enemy of a) meaningless gesture politics and b) c**** trying to overturn Brexit.

    You choose which camp you fall into.
    Love the double standards from these Guys,the same people who stood by when powers from this parliament went to a foreign body.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    edited December 2017
    Mr Eagles,

    Bryant during the debate set out the terms for the Labour party to allow the 'deal' negotiated to pass Parliament. It was basically a no-leave deal. Red lines will be basically to accept the four freedoms of the EU and pretend to leave.

    I smell the decease of the Conservatives because they will either have to ignore the referendum result which will mean a massive implosion, or be blamed for us going out with a no-deal. Electoral defeat beckons.

    You will see Jezza as PM, but you'll remain in the EU effectively. Is that a good deal?

    PS I don't trust the majority of MPs to find their own arse with a roadmap and a compass, but they are British. The EU leaders aren't even elected.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    SeanT said:

    I've been distracted for a week or two.

    Have Ramainery UK MPs just voted to make a No Deal Crash Brexit much more likely? Am I reading that right?

    If so, then, lol

    In decades to come historians will write enormous tracts on how europhiles and Remain threw away an unloseable referendum, held at the worst possible time, and after the most lamentably pathetic "renegotiation" - and then made the ensuing Brexit far worse than necessary. An almost inconceivable sequence of incompetence and idiocy.

    I don't see how this vote makes a No Deal Crash Brexit much more likely. Last week shows there's a sizeable commons majority for a soft Brexit and I am confident that's what the end result will be (as many on here have been saying for some time tbf).
  • trawltrawl Posts: 142
    The Taxman - “the nut cases”

    Sigh
  • SeanT said:

    I've been distracted for a week or two.

    Have Ramainery UK MPs just voted to make a No Deal Crash Brexit much more likely? Am I reading that right?

    If so, then, lol

    In decades to come historians will write enormous tracts on how europhiles and Remain threw away an unloseable referendum, held at the worst possible time, and after the most lamentably pathetic "renegotiation" - and then made the ensuing Brexit far worse than necessary. An almost inconceivable sequence of incompetence and idiocy.

    I don't see how this vote makes a No Deal Crash Brexit much more likely. Last week shows there's a sizeable commons majority for a soft Brexit and I am confident that's what the end result will be (as many on here have been saying for some time tbf).
    Yes. I can't understand the panic myself. Don't these people trust the British parliament to do the right thing?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    kjohnw said:

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    because people parliament has become the enemy of the people’s sovereignty
    The cry of demagogues and populists everywhere...

    The government has nothing to worry about provided they come back with a decent deal. If it's a crap deal...

    OT: Boring Puel and boring Leicester 3 nil up away at half time :)



  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited December 2017
    Tory europhiles doing what they've done since they destroyed Mrs Thatcher I see...
  • So if Brexit was about restoring the primacy and sovereignty of parliament, why have the government and so many hard Brexit MPs voted against the primacy and sovereignty of parliament?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Dr Fox,

    It's guaranteed to be a crap deal to the Labour party if it doesn't include the four freedoms (ignore Jezza, his minders will keep him out of sight). So that can only mean not leaving.

    The majority of MPs are Remain, so they'll want to kick the referendum result out the way - if they can justify it. This gives them some camouflage.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    justin124 said:

    Two suspended Labour MPs - Jared OMara and Ivan Lewis - failed to vote.

    Is O'Mara doing anything? Apparently he's submitting questions, but has his voting record improve at least, as I don't think he's spoken in the Commons yet?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    This amendment may end up benefiting TMay (a bit like the A50 court case).

    Either (1) parliament will agree to TMay's deal and there can be no complaint about it. Win.

    Or (2) parliament will reject the deal, we will fall to WTO, and the Opposition will take the blame for voting against the deal. Win.

    Odds are on (1) of course.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    kjohnw said:

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    because people parliament has become the enemy of the people’s sovereignty
    The cry of demagogues and populists everywhere...

    The government has nothing to worry about provided they come back with a decent deal. If it's a crap deal...




    If it's a crap deal what? The Brexit clock still ends on 29th March 2019 - The only difference is that if Parliament rejects the deal we leave with no deal.

    Of course Parliament has just given the EU the green light to offer us a crap deal knowing that they'll reject it and then we leave with no deal.

    You think the EU isn't vindictive enough to do that? Think again.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408


    This amendment may end up benefiting TMay (a bit like the A50 court case).

    Either (1) parliament will agree to TMay's deal and there can be no complaint about it. Win.

    Or (2) parliament will reject the deal, we will fall to WTO, and the Opposition will take the blame for voting against the deal. Win.

    Odds are on (1) of course.

    The government will always take more of the blame. But putting responsibility ultimately in the hands of parliament is surely not terrible, even if it was a defeat that forced it, like the A50 casel.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr Pioneers,

    The aim is to restore the sovereignty of the British Parliament over the EU parliament, not over the British voters.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited December 2017

    So if Brexit was about restoring the primacy and sovereignty of parliament, why have the government and so many hard Brexit MPs voted against the primacy and sovereignty of parliament?

    Have they? Parliament could later change its mind, so I don’t see how its sovereignty has been denied.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    CD13 said:

    Mr Pioneers,

    The aim is to restore the sovereignty of the British Parliament over the EU parliament, not over the British voters.

    Parliament is already sovereign, not the people.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    RobD said:

    So if Brexit was about restoring the primacy and sovereignty of parliament, why have the government and so many hard Brexit MPs voted against the primacy and sovereignty of parliament?

    Have they? Parliament could later change its mind, so I don’t see how it’s sovereignty has been denied.
    Indeed. If the amendment had been lost, parliament would have taken that decision, still sovereign in any case, it would have just decided not to have a later vote.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    kle4 said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Pioneers,

    The aim is to restore the sovereignty of the British Parliament over the EU parliament, not over the British voters.

    Parliament is already sovereign, not the people.
    Isn’t the Crown sovereign? *innocent face*
  • It's inconsistent, isn't it?

    You can argue that Parliament is obliged to govern in our best interests. You can argue that it is there to effect the will of the people. The two often overlap but when they conflict you have to decide which takes priority.

    In respect of the referendum, Parliament decided the will of the people was paramount. It's now saying that governing in our best interests takes priority.

    Can't have it both ways, guys and gals, can we?
  • GIN1138 said:

    kjohnw said:

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    because people parliament has become the enemy of the people’s sovereignty
    The cry of demagogues and populists everywhere...

    The government has nothing to worry about provided they come back with a decent deal. If it's a crap deal...




    If it's a crap deal what? The Brexit clock still ends on 29th March 2019 - The only difference is that if Parliament rejects the deal we leave with no deal.

    Of course Parliament has just given the EU the green light to offer us a crap deal knowing that they'll reject it and then we leave with no deal.

    You think the EU isn't vindictive enough to do that? Think again.
    A bad deal is better than no deal?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Pioneers,

    The aim is to restore the sovereignty of the British Parliament over the EU parliament, not over the British voters.

    Parliament is already sovereign, not the people.
    Isn’t the Crown sovereign? *innocent face*
    For parliament read crown-in-parliament.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    kle4 said:

    justin124 said:

    Two suspended Labour MPs - Jared OMara and Ivan Lewis - failed to vote.

    Is O'Mara doing anything? Apparently he's submitting questions, but has his voting record improve at least, as I don't think he's spoken in the Commons yet?
    According to Guido he has a doctor's note....
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    So if Brexit was about restoring the primacy and sovereignty of parliament, why have the government and so many hard Brexit MPs voted against the primacy and sovereignty of parliament?

    In what sense have they done that?
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    GIN1138 said:

    kjohnw said:

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    because people parliament has become the enemy of the people’s sovereignty
    The cry of demagogues and populists everywhere...

    The government has nothing to worry about provided they come back with a decent deal. If it's a crap deal...




    If it's a crap deal what? The Brexit clock still ends on 29th March 2019 - The only difference is that if Parliament rejects the deal we leave with no deal.

    Of course Parliament has just given the EU the green light to offer us a crap deal knowing that they'll reject it and then we leave with no deal.

    You think the EU isn't vindictive enough to do that? Think again.
    The 27 other national governments do not give a damn what the UK government does, their own electorate decides what happens to them. The UK government is trying to wag the dog.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited December 2017


    In respect of the referendum, Parliament decided the will of the people was paramount.

    Actually it didn't, that was why the government lost the A50 case - while ministerial statements declared the will of the people was to be paramount, parliament never passed a law in respect of the referendum to make it so, and therefore the will of parliament was necessary with the notification of A50 bill. Sure they took account of the will of the people as per the referendum, but it was still parliament choosing to do it, and as they legally could have done otherwise and some did vote against it, they were still paramount.

    I think a mountain is being made out of a molehill. Parliament voted - if the government had won this vote, it would still have been the will of parliament not the will of the people that decided it, just as it was given the government lost the vote. People just declare their view is obviously the will of the people.

    The most ridiculous example of this I recall was some anti-austerity march after the GE result with Caroline Lucas talking about the will of the people and trying to act like she embodied it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    The Tory Taliban are out in force.

    https://twitter.com/montie/status/941039101909794817
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    GIN1138 said:

    kjohnw said:

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    because people parliament has become the enemy of the people’s sovereignty
    The cry of demagogues and populists everywhere...

    The government has nothing to worry about provided they come back with a decent deal. If it's a crap deal...




    If it's a crap deal what? The Brexit clock still ends on 29th March 2019 - The only difference is that if Parliament rejects the deal we leave with no deal.

    Of course Parliament has just given the EU the green light to offer us a crap deal knowing that they'll reject it and then we leave with no deal.

    You think the EU isn't vindictive enough to do that? Think again.
    A bad deal is better than no deal?
    Well personally I'm fine with going with WTO if the EU gives us a bad deal, which is certainly much more likely after tonight's shenanigans, but it seems odd that the europhilles have done something that makes that outcome much more likely...
  • Did he say the same about IDS and the other Maastricht rebels?

    Or is just Montie just a hypocritical wankstain?
  • LOL, him and Dorries are reminding me of momentum tonight.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited December 2017
    SeanT said:

    Remainers = Petulant Idiots. Discuss.

    What is their problem? They lost a democratic vote. That is democracy, You abide by it. This is one BIG reason we are leaving the EU, it has no innate respect for democracy.

    Hardcore Remainers are the most noisome scum in British politics. They give not a fuck for democratic values. Hang them.

    They voted to allow the British people to have a referendum about remaining or leaving the EU and specifically said they would abide by the decision.

    But the the British people had the temerity to give the wrong answer.

    Everything that's happened since is a cry of anguish from an establishment that is still in a state of shock and denial over what happened on 23rd June 2016.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    LOL, him and Dorries are reminding me of momentum tonight.
    Not a comparison anyone should be pleased to have made. But accurate.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    edited December 2017
    GIN1138 said:

    kjohnw said:

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    because people parliament has become the enemy of the people’s sovereignty
    The cry of demagogues and populists everywhere...

    The government has nothing to worry about provided they come back with a decent deal. If it's a crap deal...




    If it's a crap deal what? The Brexit clock still ends on 29th March 2019 - The only difference is that if Parliament rejects the deal we leave with no deal.

    Of course Parliament has just given the EU the green light to offer us a crap deal knowing that they'll reject it and then we leave with no deal.

    You think the EU isn't vindictive enough to do that? Think again.
    I'm sure the EU wouldn't do that GIN; don't forget they need us more than we need them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    We've all made comments which we later forget we made, but you do have to wonder how people in this situation forget, in the age of twitter, to do a quick check on such things, when they are going to be so aggressive and it is a clear opportunity for hypocrisy.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited December 2017

    GIN1138 said:

    kjohnw said:

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    because people parliament has become the enemy of the people’s sovereignty
    The cry of demagogues and populists everywhere...

    The government has nothing to worry about provided they come back with a decent deal. If it's a crap deal...




    If it's a crap deal what? The Brexit clock still ends on 29th March 2019 - The only difference is that if Parliament rejects the deal we leave with no deal.

    Of course Parliament has just given the EU the green light to offer us a crap deal knowing that they'll reject it and then we leave with no deal.

    You think the EU isn't vindictive enough to do that? Think again.
    I'm sure the EU won;t do that GIN; don't forget they need us more than we need them.
    Some in the EU are mad enough to try it. Hopefully common sense will prevail but the Tory rebels have certainly made it much more likely it'll be no deal rather than a sensible compromise.
  • kle4 said:

    We've all made comments which we later forget we made, but you do have to wonder how people in this situation forget, in the age of twitter, to do a quick check on such things, when they are going to be so aggressive and it is a clear opportunity for hypocrisy.
    Nadine isn’t very bright.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    They need to calm down - as I've noted, this has been talked about for weeks if not months as a likely possibility.
  • GIN1138 said:

    kjohnw said:

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    because people parliament has become the enemy of the people’s sovereignty
    The cry of demagogues and populists everywhere...

    The government has nothing to worry about provided they come back with a decent deal. If it's a crap deal...




    If it's a crap deal what? The Brexit clock still ends on 29th March 2019 - The only difference is that if Parliament rejects the deal we leave with no deal.

    Of course Parliament has just given the EU the green light to offer us a crap deal knowing that they'll reject it and then we leave with no deal.

    You think the EU isn't vindictive enough to do that? Think again.
    I'm sure the EU wouldn't do that GIN; don't forget they need us more than we need them.
    In business terms the EU will agree a fair trade deal in the end, it just all this politics gets in the way
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    edited December 2017
    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    Remainers = Petulant Idiots. Discuss.

    What is their problem? They lost a democratic vote. That is democracy, You abide by it. This is one BIG reason we are leaving the EU, it has no innate respect for democracy.

    Hardcore Remainers are the most noisome scum in British politics. They give not a fuck for democratic values. Hang them.

    They voted to allow the British people to have a referendum about remaining or leaving the EU and specifically said they would abide by the decision.

    But the the British people had the temerity to give the wrong answer.

    Everything that's happened since is a cry of anguish from an establishment that is still in a state of shock and denial over what happened on 23rd June 2016.
    So you're happy to turn Brexit into Theresa's plaything? Sorry, the woman screwed up an unlosable election against a fringe Trotskyist. You may be convinced of her omnicompetence, but I'd rather see some checks and balances.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    GIN1138 said:

    kjohnw said:

    Can someone explain to me how this vote makes sense? The EU aren't going to roll over if parliament tells May to go back and negotiate a better deal especially after spending years negotiating the deal put to a parliamentary vote.

    Fuckwittery of the highest order. And MPs wonder why they have a reputation lower than a snake’s pubic wart....
    Why are you an enemy of Parliamentary sovereignty?
    because people parliament has become the enemy of the people’s sovereignty
    The cry of demagogues and populists everywhere...

    The government has nothing to worry about provided they come back with a decent deal. If it's a crap deal...




    If it's a crap deal what? The Brexit clock still ends on 29th March 2019 - The only difference is that if Parliament rejects the deal we leave with no deal.

    Of course Parliament has just given the EU the green light to offer us a crap deal knowing that they'll reject it and then we leave with no deal.

    You think the EU isn't vindictive enough to do that? Think again.
    I'm sure the EU wouldn't do that GIN; don't forget they need us more than we need them.
    In business terms the EU will agree a fair trade deal in the end, it just all this politics gets in the way
    Yes agreed. And the HoC will vote to approve that deal. As you said earlier Big_G, it's all just a strom in a teacup.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    SeanT said:

    Time for a Tory purge. You obey the voted expression of the British people, or you get the fuck out of politics.
    As someone who has leaned toward a softer brexit, I'm not sure what the government will decided to be the voted expression of the british people will necessarily please you. When did we the public make an expression about the parliamentary procedure around how the final deal is agreed?

    But this is a time of joy as everyone gets to vent as angrily as possible of course.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    Remainers = Petulant Idiots. Discuss.

    What is their problem? They lost a democratic vote. That is democracy, You abide by it. This is one BIG reason we are leaving the EU, it has no innate respect for democracy.

    Hardcore Remainers are the most noisome scum in British politics. They give not a fuck for democratic values. Hang them.

    They voted to allow the British people to have a referendum about remaining or leaving the EU and specifically said they would abide by the decision.

    But the the British people had the temerity to give the wrong answer.

    Everything that's happened since is a cry of anguish from an establishment that is still in a state of shock and denial over what happened on 23rd June 2016.
    its scorched earth policy
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    GIN1138 said:

    SeanT said:

    Remainers = Petulant Idiots. Discuss.

    What is their problem? They lost a democratic vote. That is democracy, You abide by it. This is one BIG reason we are leaving the EU, it has no innate respect for democracy.

    Hardcore Remainers are the most noisome scum in British politics. They give not a fuck for democratic values. Hang them.

    They voted to allow the British people to have a referendum about remaining or leaving the EU and specifically said they would abide by the decision.

    But the the British people had the temerity to give the wrong answer.

    Everything that's happened since is a cry of anguish from an establishment that is still in a state of shock and denial over what happened on 23rd June 2016.
    So you're happy to turn Brexit into Theresa's plaything?

    Well not really happy... But that's where we are and we've just got to get on with it.

  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Parliament is sovereign in the UK, not the executive.
  • kle4 said:

    They need to calm down - as I've noted, this has been talked about for weeks if not months as a likely possibility.
    They are probably laughing because this comes after May’s good week where the story for many was Tory unity.

    @SeanT Tory purge? Blimey! As I say, I’m getting momentum vibes tonight....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    They need to calm down - as I've noted, this has been talked about for weeks if not months as a likely possibility.
    They are probably laughing because this comes after May’s good week where the story for many was Tory unity.
    A rare good week - Labour have been laughing since the election I'd have thought.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    GIN1138 said:

    Some on the EU are mad enough to try it. Hopefully common sense will prevail but the Tory rebels have certainly made it much more likely it'll be no deal rather than a sensible compromise.


    People self-harm when they feel they have no control over their lives. It's a human response: "I can't control anything else, but I can control what I do to myself". Remainers are self-harming because they lost the referendum, and they are trying to do something anything that puts them back in control. Even if it only actually makes things worse.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    OchEye said:

    Parliament is sovereign in the UK, not the executive.

    And a good thing too - whatever the outcome of this vote that would have been the case. If the government had won, why would that mean the executive was sovereign? Parliament would have consented to leaving it to the executive is all.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Time to purge the EUphiles. We should have got rid of them at the first sign of dissent.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    kle4 said:

    We've all made comments which we later forget we made, but you do have to wonder how people in this situation forget, in the age of twitter, to do a quick check on such things, when they are going to be so aggressive and it is a clear opportunity for hypocrisy.
    Nadine isn’t very bright.
    she's still an MP, how's George's political career going ?
  • Now Star Wars time.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    Before becoming an MP, Dom Raab was chief of staff to Dominic Grieve (then Shadow Home Secretary) as he was to David Davis before his celebrated (sic) resignation.
  • SeanT said:

    Time for a Tory purge. You obey the voted expression of the British people, or you get the fuck out of politics.
    The people voted to leave The European Union. This vote didn't affect that
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    SeanT said:

    Time for a Tory purge. You obey the voted expression of the British people, or you get the fuck out of politics.
    The people voted to leave The European Union. This vote didn't affect that
    The way some are celebrating (or raging) you'd think it did!
  • I'm with those who are equivocal about the vote's impact.

    The most irritating thing about it is europhiles and federalists crowing about it as though it means a crushing defeat for Brexit.

    But requiring the HoC to vote in favour of any Theresa May reaches with the EU could just as easily be used as negotiating leverage with the EU, and voting "no" will lead to "no deal", unless the EU unanimously decides something different.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Now Star Wars time.

    Seeing it tomorrow. Good times.
  • My own view, as a Remain voter, is that I think a Brexit deal approved by parliament stands a better chance of uniting the country than one approved by just the government does. Certainly I'll be more inclined to look on any deal with less hostile eyes if parliament approves it. It's not about stopping Brexit - that ship has sailed, sadly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    I'm with those who are equivocal about the vote's impact.

    The most irritating thing about it is europhiles and federalists crowing about it as though it means a crushing defeat for Brexit.

    But requiring the HoC to vote in favour of any Theresa May reaches with the EU could just as easily be used as negotiating leverage with the EU, and voting "no" will lead to "no deal", unless the EU unanimously decides something different.

    I think the EU's position is strong enough that, sensibly or not, they won't be budging much, but its not impossible to envisage May trying to use her own weakness as a strength. 'Look, I'm not kidding when I say I cannot accept this deal, I literally cannot pass it. You don't need to convince me, you need to convince a majority of my parliament'. But as I said I imagine things will play out pretty much as most expect - sound and fury, then some fudge and everyone calling it victory.
  • MaxPB said:

    Time to purge the EUphiles. We should have got rid of them at the first sign of dissent.

    Like Major purged the Eurosceptics after Maastricht ?

    Or was that the right type of dissent ?
  • None of the names on the rebels list (the New Bastards) surprise me, except perhaps Oliver Heald.

    The question is whether they've now got the rebellion out of their system, with a totemic victory, or whether they've acquired a taste for it, that will inspire others, possibly including one from the ultra-Brexit wing of the Tory party in retaliation.

    Who knows.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Indeed. But the problem is that the EU is now more likely to offer a bad deal... Which the government probably reject before there's even a vote, meaning we just leave with no deal (which I'm OK with but you would think EUPhiles wouldn't want in a million years)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    It is funny how rebelling is the right thing to do, when it isn't your own rebels of course.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    MaxPB said:

    Time to purge the EUphiles. We should have got rid of them at the first sign of dissent.

    Like Major purged the Eurosceptics after Maastricht ?

    Or was that the right type of dissent ?
    Like the Jedi should have purged themselves of Anakin, a cancer in their midst.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    The really stupid thing about tonight's vote was why the Government felt the need to prevent the HoC rubber-stamping the final agreement!?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    The really stupid thing about tonight's vote was why the Government felt the need to prevent the HoC rubber-stamping the final agreement!?

    Let the rebels have their way with a meaningless amendment?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    The really stupid thing about tonight's vote was why the Government felt the need to prevent the HoC rubber-stamping the final agreement!?

    Unclear. Thought they had the votes and so didn't want to appear weak for bowing to a demand, even if the demand is not that big a deal? Possibly because in the dreams of some remainers and fears of some Brexiters, it is a brexit reversing amendment?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    kle4 said:

    It is funny how rebelling is the right thing to do, when it isn't your own rebels of course.
    And vice versa of course!
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Deserved bloody nose.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    It is funny how rebelling is the right thing to do, when it isn't your own rebels of course.
    And vice versa of course!
    Of course!
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    edited December 2017
    I love the sizzling smell of Leaver flesh! This is a win win. At best it's scuppered any chance of Gove and Boris creating a Brexit in their own dark image, with Theresa as their puppet. At worst we fall off a cliff and Leavers get the blame anyway. Merry Christmas.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    I love the sizzling smell of Leaver flesh! This is a win win. At best it's scuppered any chance of Gove and Boris creating a Brexit in their own dark image, with Theresa as their puppet. At worst we fall off a cliff and Leavers get the blame anyway. Merry Christmas.

    And it's made that second option a bit more likely.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    It strikes me that Labour would be the main beneficiary of a purge of tory rebels, many of whom represent constituencies with a strong remain vote. Momentum have already been trying to unseat Soubry.


  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    The really stupid thing about tonight's vote was why the Government felt the need to prevent the HoC rubber-stamping the final agreement!?

    If the MP's don't have to back a deal, they will be able to whinge about it afterwards. Make them nail their colours to the mast so we know who the guilty are.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    kle4 said:

    It is funny how rebelling is the right thing to do, when it isn't your own rebels of course.
    It's funny how this sky reporter keeps reporting the negatives of leave and people on here think he's remain/leave neutral.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    All those comments about the legistlation sailing through untroubled have aged well.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    kle4 said:

    It is funny how rebelling is the right thing to do, when it isn't your own rebels of course.
    It's funny how this sky reporter keeps reporting the negatives of leave and people on here think he's remain/leave neutral.
    People on here think he's neutral? News to me :D
This discussion has been closed.