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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump’s approval ratings drop to new low with women voters mov

SystemSystem Posts: 6,199
edited December 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump’s approval ratings drop to new low with women voters moving most against him

There’s a new US national poll just out from Monmouth University – the organisation which did best forecasting this week’s Alabama senate election. Its final survey there had it as a tie which was closest to the outcome. Monmouth uses traditional live phone interviews and calls mobiles as landlines.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Remarkable that even a quarter of American women might still have a positive opinion of Trump.
  • Remarkable that even a quarter of American women might still have a positive opinion of Trump.

    Well on Tuesday nearly 50% of voters in Alabama voted for Roy Moore.

    I'm still shocked 3% of African-American voted for him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,691
    edited December 2017
    Before writing off Trump completely remember in 2009 the Democrats lost the Virginia and New Jersey governorships and in January 2010 they even lost Ted Kennedy's old Senate seat in deep blue Massachusetts. In the 2010 midterms the GOP gained the House and the Democrats lost further seats in the Senate. Obama's ratings were also low, albeit not as low as Trump's. Yet in 2012 Obama was narrowly re elected and beat Romney.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,941
    Was quite looking forward to the Last Jedi until TSE compared it to the worst Bond film since Dalton - SPECTRE.

  • TGOHF said:

    Was quite looking forward to the Last Jedi until TSE compared it to the worst Bond film since Dalton - SPECTRE.

    I only did that to amuse Scott.
  • Mr. Flashman (deceased), I rather like Licence To Kill.
  • TGOHF said:

    Was quite looking forward to the Last Jedi until TSE compared it to the worst Bond film since Dalton - SPECTRE.

    Indeed. Slightly worried now. Can only assume TSE is trolling.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,691
    TGOHF said:

    Was quite looking forward to the Last Jedi until TSE compared it to the worst Bond film since Dalton - SPECTRE.

    Die Another Day was the worst Bond film ever, miles worse than Spectre or the Dalton films
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,130

    Remarkable that even a quarter of American women might still have a positive opinion of Trump.

    Well on Tuesday nearly 50% of voters in Alabama voted for Roy Moore.

    I'm still shocked 3% of African-American voted for him.
    3% was within the MoE of 0% for the exit poll.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,941
    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    Was quite looking forward to the Last Jedi until TSE compared it to the worst Bond film since Dalton - SPECTRE.

    Die Another Day was the worst Bond film ever, miles worse than Spectre or the Dalton films
    A fair point - the invisible car / kite surfing scene was the nadir.

  • On topic, you're also missing the big picture,

    Fox & Friends Decides Roy Moore Lost in Alabama Because of Harvey Weinstein


    On Wednesday morning, the folks at Fox & Friends dealt with the heartbreaking news of Roy Moore's defeat in the Alabama Senate race by engaging in some somber, thoughtful reflection. Doug Jones, a former prosecutor who brought church-bombing members of the KKK to justice, will be Alabama's next senator, and the president's favorite morning couch-dwellers know why: Harvey Weinstein.

    "It was hard for women to go to the polls and vote for him, even though those allegations were just allegations, and even though it happened so long ago," explained Ainsley Earhardt. "This was not a referendum on Trump. I feel like this was a referendum on Harvey Weinstein."


    https://www.gq.com/story/fox-friends-moore-weinstein
  • Hurrah for Dawid Malan.
  • Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 11,416
    edited December 2017
    I see that the retail sales 'end of days' last month has been revised away with updated figures and that yet another retail sales all time high has been reached:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/retailindustry/timeseries/j467/drsi

    So it is only Germany, France and Italy who are suffering the retail sales 'end of days'.

    Looking further back retail sales are over double in the austerity deprived, food back dependent present than they were in the loadsamoney and yuppies Lawson Boom era thirty years ago.
  • On topic, you're also missing the big picture,

    Fox & Friends Decides Roy Moore Lost in Alabama Because of Harvey Weinstein


    On Wednesday morning, the folks at Fox & Friends dealt with the heartbreaking news of Roy Moore's defeat in the Alabama Senate race by engaging in some somber, thoughtful reflection. Doug Jones, a former prosecutor who brought church-bombing members of the KKK to justice, will be Alabama's next senator, and the president's favorite morning couch-dwellers know why: Harvey Weinstein.

    "It was hard for women to go to the polls and vote for him, even though those allegations were just allegations, and even though it happened so long ago," explained Ainsley Earhardt. "This was not a referendum on Trump. I feel like this was a referendum on Harvey Weinstein."


    https://www.gq.com/story/fox-friends-moore-weinstein

    There's a kernel of truth in that.
  • TGOHF said:

    Was quite looking forward to the Last Jedi until TSE compared it to the worst Bond film since Dalton - SPECTRE.

    Dalton was the best Bond.

    There's only one thing I detest more than ultra-Remainers, and that's anti Daltonites.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,941
    edited December 2017

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,831
    FPT
    CD13 said:

    I voted leave but expected to lose - certainly as the opinion polls showed Remain ahead.

    Losing would have been a disappointment but not a major issue.

    If however, the result is ignored because it doesn't suit the self-elected superior beings, I will be very annoyed. I detest hypocrisy. Be upfront, do it because you think it's the wrong decision, but don't do it in the name of democracy.

    As Cammo's leaflet said ..."the decision is up to you", but it never was, was it?

    If we end up staying in the EU, the referendum result will have destroyed at least two Prime Ministers and consumed most of our politics for at least two years. 'Ignored' is the last word I'd use to describe what had happened.
  • Mr. Glenn, voting to leave the EU and then remaining in the EU is the definition of ignoring the vote.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 32,839

    FPT

    CD13 said:

    I voted leave but expected to lose - certainly as the opinion polls showed Remain ahead.

    Losing would have been a disappointment but not a major issue.

    If however, the result is ignored because it doesn't suit the self-elected superior beings, I will be very annoyed. I detest hypocrisy. Be upfront, do it because you think it's the wrong decision, but don't do it in the name of democracy.

    As Cammo's leaflet said ..."the decision is up to you", but it never was, was it?

    If we end up staying in the EU, the referendum result will have destroyed at least two Prime Ministers and consumed most of our politics for at least two years. 'Ignored' is the last word I'd use to describe what had happened.
    If we end up staying in the EU, it would definitely be correct to say that the result had been ignored, no matter how much energy had been expended previously.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,831

    Mr. Glenn, voting to leave the EU and then remaining in the EU is the definition of ignoring the vote.

    If we voted to send a man to Mars, and then spent ten years trying and failing to do so, would you also say we'd ignored the voters?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,312
    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Leave played the sovereignty card endlessly throughout the referendum campaign and before - they are not in a strong position to complain when Parliament exercises the sovereignty they told us Brexit is intended to restore.
  • Mr. Glenn, voting to leave the EU and then remaining in the EU is the definition of ignoring the vote.

    If we voted to send a man to Mars, and then spent ten years trying and failing to do so, would you also say we'd ignored the voters?
    Welcome to the Hotel California...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 32,839

    Mr. Glenn, voting to leave the EU and then remaining in the EU is the definition of ignoring the vote.

    If we voted to send a man to Mars, and then spent ten years trying and failing to do so, would you also say we'd ignored the voters?
    Wouldn't the analogy be that HMG had a mission ready, but Parliament decided to scrub the launch at the last minute?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,941

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Leave played the sovereignty card endlessly throughout the referendum campaign and before - they are not in a strong position to complain when Parliament exercises the sovereignty they told us Brexit is intended to restore.
    Fine - but the issue is the lack of trust in the motives.
  • TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 32,839

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Leave played the sovereignty card endlessly throughout the referendum campaign and before - they are not in a strong position to complain when Parliament exercises the sovereignty they told us Brexit is intended to restore.
    I don't think anyone is arguing they shouldn't have the right to do this, they are arguing that it isn't the right thing to do.
  • Mr. Glenn, the vote was to leave the EU, which is eminently possible. Just not bothering and then saying it's not ignoring the vote is an abuse of the English language.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,941

    Mr. Glenn, voting to leave the EU and then remaining in the EU is the definition of ignoring the vote.

    If we voted to send a man to Mars, and then spent ten years trying and failing to do so, would you also say we'd ignored the voters?
    Sending a man to Mars seems to be simpler than untangling the knot weed of EU membership.

    Which is a key reason Leave won the referendum.




  • FPT - @AlastairMeeks

    Many continental European politicians and EU apparatchiks believe passionately in their vision of a federal Europe (ever closer union) and do not view democratic votes in any EU member state as a legitimate to prevent or hinder it.

    Most people in the UK feel very differently, and do not share that vision.

    That is where the chronic distrust comes from. The EU's lack of understning of how (and why) the UK might see things very differently, and the belief most Eurosceptics share that they've been vindicated in the past (and continue to be now) in their predictions of ongoing federalisation (despite being often told that each successive Treaty means no such thing, and accused of foaming or ranting at the time) explains much of the emotion.

    It doesn't get more emotive that the destiny of your country and its democratic systems.
  • FPT - @AlastairMeeks

    Many continental European politicians and EU apparatchiks believe passionately in their vision of a federal Europe (ever closer union) and do not view democratic votes in any EU member state as a legitimate to prevent or hinder it.

    Most people in the UK feel very differently, and do not share that vision.

    That is where the chronic distrust comes from. The EU's lack of understning of how (and why) the UK might see things very differently, and the belief most Eurosceptics share that they've been vindicated in the past (and continue to be now) in their predictions of ongoing federalisation (despite being often told that each successive Treaty means no such thing, and accused of foaming or ranting at the time) explains much of the emotion.

    It doesn't get more emotive that the destiny of your country and its democratic systems.

    It's not "chronic distrust". It's visceral hatred. Pretending otherwise is an impediment to the debate.

    Only a couple of days ago you were happy to like this tweet that refers to hating the EU:



    So I'm taking your word for it.
  • TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    We don't trust them, and they hate us.

    Personally, I can't see any proper reconciliation taking place until Brexit has actually taken effect and the transition period has ended (it's very important the latter finishes prior to the next GE and the new relationship takes effect otherwise, under a new Labour Government post GE2022, we could simply end up in a permanent limbo in "transition" - which never ends - whilst meanwhile a case is built to rejoin).

    Once we have new trade, immigration and regulatory powers, and it's a done deal, I expect both main parties to constructively argue how they'd use them.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,941
    Add in the EU's track record in ignoring and rerunning referendums when they don't like the result and you get a toxic mix.

    Next time some simpering luvvie is bemoaning low turn out at elections they would do well to remember this week.
  • Mr. Royale, I agree on reconciliation. If we end up with a departure in name only or some unholy half-in, half-out situation, that will cause already significant divisions to deepen.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,642
    edited December 2017

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
  • TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    We cannot remain in the EU without the approval of the electorate. Last night’s vote doesn’t change that. But it may lead to a Brexit that is palatable to more of the electorate. That is a good thing, isn’t it?

  • @AlastairMeeks - Yes, i can vent with the best of them (just as you do) but firstly there's a difference between liking a tweet and writing it yourself in your own words, so I wouldn't read too much into that other than I applaud the argument that it's not anti-European xenophobia that drives Leavers but a dislike of the agenda, treaties and behaviour of the institutions of the EU. Also, I've sarcastically liked some Remainer tweets in the past, like the gloriously OTT James Chapman which didn't mean I agreed with them either.

    Further, I have also criticised JHB for calling Philip Hammond a traitor, and this morning have called out Farage's hypocrisy, so nor am I blind to stupidity on "my own side".

    Nice to know I have you as a friendly stalker, though.
  • TGOHF said:

    Add in the EU's track record in ignoring and rerunning referendums when they don't like the result and you get a toxic mix.

    Next time some simpering luvvie is bemoaning low turn out at elections they would do well to remember this week.

    Low turnout is essentially about voters feeling there is no point in voting. When millions vote for a party and it ends up with no MPs that is a problem.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 66,809
    edited December 2017
    Bugger, I was planning to publish a thread this weekend comparing David Davis to Aspamitres the Eunuch.
  • And the culprit: parliament as a whole, led by the same people who led the Remain campaign. The MPs aren't the grown-ups coming to save us from the folly of the demos. This is all a symptom of a parliament that doesn't function as it ought.
  • @AlastairMeeks - Yes, i can vent with the best of them (just as you do) but firstly there's a difference between liking a tweet and writing it yourself in your own words, so I wouldn't read too much into that other than I applaud the argument that it's not anti-European xenophobia that drives Leavers but a dislike of the agenda, treaties and behaviour of the institutions of the EU. Also, I've sarcastically liked some Remainer tweets in the past, like the gloriously OTT James Chapman which didn't mean I agreed with them either.

    Further, I have also criticised JHB for calling Philip Hammond a traitor, and this morning have called out Farage's hypocrisy, so nor am I blind to stupidity on "my own side".

    Nice to know I have you as a friendly stalker, though.

    Why else would you like that tweet? It's not saying anything deep and meaningful. It's just a standard swivel-eyed Leaver rant.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,038

    Mr. Glenn, voting to leave the EU and then remaining in the EU is the definition of ignoring the vote.

    If we voted to send a man to Mars, and then spent ten years trying and failing to do so, would you also say we'd ignored the voters?
    I know this isn't how you're intending to make the point but bear with me.

    The main reason there isn't a man on Mars yet is because alot of NASA (particularly the SLS) has become a bloated organisation that only exists for jobs creation and has forgotten its primary objectives particularly in human spaceflight.
    So yes if the Gov't goes about leaving the EU in the same way NASA is trying to send humans to Mars, I'd say it was ignoring the voters.
    OTOH If the Gov't went about leaving the EU in the way SpaceX is trying to get humans to Mars and didn't make it in ten years - but was making clear and obvious progress toward the end goal (And obviously there are hiccups along the way) and actually trying to get there then I'd say that would be no failure.

    It's a tenuous and ropey analogy but the Gov't is definitely more toward the SpaceX end of at least trying to make progress (Difficult, at times painful progress) on the issue whereas alot of parliament are happy for leaving the EU to become a makework scheme in much the same way getting to Mars is a sort of never quite there goal for NASA.
  • TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    Does Norway have to pay a lot for the privilege?
    Does Norway have to take EU regulations directly in order to retain that privilege?
  • TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    We don't trust them, and they hate us.

    Personally, I can't see any proper reconciliation taking place until Brexit has actually taken effect and the transition period has ended (it's very important the latter finishes prior to the next GE and the new relationship takes effect otherwise, under a new Labour Government post GE2022, we could simply end up in a permanent limbo in "transition" - which never ends - whilst meanwhile a case is built to rejoin).

    Once we have new trade, immigration and regulatory powers, and it's a done deal, I expect both main parties to constructively argue how they'd use them.
    If that's the Leaver strategy, the country is going to remain divided for decades. The disgusting way in which Leavers have conducted themselves is not going to be forgotten with the passage of time. It's going to be the subject of folk myth. Far more active steps will be required to bridge the gap.
  • TGOHF said:

    Add in the EU's track record in ignoring and rerunning referendums when they don't like the result and you get a toxic mix.

    Next time some simpering luvvie is bemoaning low turn out at elections they would do well to remember this week.

    Low turnout is essentially about voters feeling there is no point in voting. When millions vote for a party and it ends up with no MPs that is a problem.

    Both are a problem. If people feel there is no point voting they are also deciding that the democratic system has failed them. In such instances they are far more likely to start looking at alternatives. And I for one don't want alternatives. I want our system to work.

    At the moment is stumbles along, barely meeting its remit on occasion. Whilst in principle it is absolutely the best system we could ever hope for and is still worth supporting, in practice there are real deficiencies which mean that there is a clear separation between the aspirations and the reality. We need to fix those deficiencies soon or the whole system will fall into disrepute.
  • Blame Cameron. It was he who decided on the blank sheet of paper format. Davis and the others have just been trying to pick up the pieces afterwards.
  • TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    But we have a Remainer in charge who simply doesn't understand the many different strands of Leave and so has picked on the most extreme version as if it were written in stone. There are plenty of us who would be extremely happy with the Norway option.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,642
    edited December 2017

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    Does Norway have to pay a lot for the privilege?
    Does Norway have to take EU regulations directly in order to retain that privilege?
    Norway is not in the EU. Those elements are important to you. So the f*ck what? NORWAY IS NOT IN THE EU.

    It really is that simple.
  • FPT - @AlastairMeeks

    Many continental European politicians and EU apparatchiks believe passionately in their vision of a federal Europe (ever closer union) and do not view democratic votes in any EU member state as a legitimate to prevent or hinder it.

    Most people in the UK feel very differently, and do not share that vision.

    That is where the chronic distrust comes from. The EU's lack of understning of how (and why) the UK might see things very differently, and the belief most Eurosceptics share that they've been vindicated in the past (and continue to be now) in their predictions of ongoing federalisation (despite being often told that each successive Treaty means no such thing, and accused of foaming or ranting at the time) explains much of the emotion.

    It doesn't get more emotive that the destiny of your country and its democratic systems.

    It's not "chronic distrust". It's visceral hatred. Pretending otherwise is an impediment to the debate.

    [snip]
    Only for some. I do wonder whether you're ranting at the mirror a little there, in the same way that some Momentum types justify their own visceral hatred of the Tories and of specific Tory politicians by what they imagine to be the Tory 'hatred' of the working class / youth / [insert group of choice].

    CR is right: the problem was and is one of chronic distrust. Leave could never have come remotely close to winning with just the UKIP vote.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,642

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    But we have a Remainer in charge who simply doesn't understand the many different strands of Leave and so has picked on the most extreme version as if it were written in stone. There are plenty of us who would be extremely happy with the Norway option.
    Yes it is a shame we are pursuing what seems to be the most difficult path to exiting.

    Then again, you will have all sorts of PB Leavers after you if you tell them you don't give a fig about immigration. @HYUFD might even tell you (cf his pronouncements on what constitutes a true Conservative) that you are not a true Leaver.
  • TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    Does Norway have to pay a lot for the privilege?
    Does Norway have to take EU regulations directly in order to retain that privilege?
    No and No.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    But we have a Remainer in charge who simply doesn't understand the many different strands of Leave and so has picked on the most extreme version as if it were written in stone. There are plenty of us who would be extremely happy with the Norway option.
    Yes it is a shame we are pursuing what seems to be the most difficult path to exiting.

    Then again, you will have all sorts of PB Leavers after you if you tell them you don't give a fig about immigration. @HYUFD might even tell you (cf his pronouncements on what constitutes a true Conservative) that you are not a true Leaver.
    I have been called much worse :)
  • @AlastairMeeks - Yes, i can vent with the best of them (just as you do) but firstly there's a difference between liking a tweet and writing it yourself in your own words, so I wouldn't read too much into that other than I applaud the argument that it's not anti-European xenophobia that drives Leavers but a dislike of the agenda, treaties and behaviour of the institutions of the EU. Also, I've sarcastically liked some Remainer tweets in the past, like the gloriously OTT James Chapman which didn't mean I agreed with them either.

    Further, I have also criticised JHB for calling Philip Hammond a traitor, and this morning have called out Farage's hypocrisy, so nor am I blind to stupidity on "my own side".

    Nice to know I have you as a friendly stalker, though.

    Why else would you like that tweet? It's not saying anything deep and meaningful. It's just a standard swivel-eyed Leaver rant.
    I've just explained to you. No bonus point for the cliched swivel-eyed insult either.

    If you call Leavers swivel-eyed, you can't complain if they call Remainers traitors.
  • TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    We don't trust them, and they hate us.

    Personally, I can't see any proper reconciliation taking place until Brexit has actually taken effect and the transition period has ended (it's very important the latter finishes prior to the next GE and the new relationship takes effect otherwise, under a new Labour Government post GE2022, we could simply end up in a permanent limbo in "transition" - which never ends - whilst meanwhile a case is built to rejoin).

    Once we have new trade, immigration and regulatory powers, and it's a done deal, I expect both main parties to constructively argue how they'd use them.
    If that's the Leaver strategy, the country is going to remain divided for decades. The disgusting way in which Leavers have conducted themselves is not going to be forgotten with the passage of time. It's going to be the subject of folk myth. Far more active steps will be required to bridge the gap.
    Leavers won't tolerate Brexit being obstructed or frustrated.

    You need to get that through your head. Then, the discussion can move on.
  • TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    We don't trust them, and they hate us.

    Personally, I can't see any proper reconciliation taking place until Brexit has actually taken effect and the transition period has ended (it's very important the latter finishes prior to the next GE and the new relationship takes effect otherwise, under a new Labour Government post GE2022, we could simply end up in a permanent limbo in "transition" - which never ends - whilst meanwhile a case is built to rejoin).

    Once we have new trade, immigration and regulatory powers, and it's a done deal, I expect both main parties to constructively argue how they'd use them.
    If that's the Leaver strategy, the country is going to remain divided for decades. The disgusting way in which Leavers have conducted themselves is not going to be forgotten with the passage of time. It's going to be the subject of folk myth. Far more active steps will be required to bridge the gap.
    Leavers won't tolerate Brexit being obstructed or frustrated.

    You need to get that through your head. Then, the discussion can move on.
    I am afraid you are wasting your time with Mr Meeks CR. He has turned into PB's very own one man lunatic fringe.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,258
    Oooh, the speaker says he does not think ministers have been in contempt over the Brexit (non?) papers.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532
    edited December 2017

    FPT - @AlastairMeeks

    Many continental European politicians and EU apparatchiks believe passionately in their vision of a federal Europe (ever closer union) and do not view democratic votes in any EU member state as a legitimate to prevent or hinder it.

    Most people in the UK feel very differently, and do not share that vision.

    That is where the chronic distrust comes from. The EU's lack of understning of how (and why) the UK might see things very differently, and the belief most Eurosceptics share that they've been vindicated in the past (and continue to be now) in their predictions of ongoing federalisation (despite being often told that each successive Treaty means no such thing, and accused of foaming or ranting at the time) explains much of the emotion.

    It doesn't get more emotive that the destiny of your country and its democratic systems.

    It's not "chronic distrust". It's visceral hatred. Pretending otherwise is an impediment to the debate.

    [snip]
    Only for some. I do wonder whether you're ranting at the mirror a little there, in the same way that some Momentum types justify their own visceral hatred of the Tories and of specific Tory politicians by what they imagine to be the Tory 'hatred' of the working class / youth / [insert group of choice].

    CR is right: the problem was and is one of chronic distrust. Leave could never have come remotely close to winning with just the UKIP vote.
    Thanks. I've tried (genuinely) to engage with Alastair many times on this, but he makes it (for me) very difficult, and (to me) rather personal.

    I think the only way I could move the discussion forward now is to go for a pint with him, but, assuming he didn't refuse or ignore the request, which I think he would, I couldn't be confident he wouldn't shout or scream at me in the pub, or pour the beer over my head.

    I have close friends and family who have very different political opinions to me.

    We're bigger than this.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,941

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    We don't trust them, and they hate us.

    Personally, I can't see any proper reconciliation taking place until Brexit has actually taken effect and the transition period has ended (it's very important the latter finishes prior to the next GE and the new relationship takes effect otherwise, under a new Labour Government post GE2022, we could simply end up in a permanent limbo in "transition" - which never ends - whilst meanwhile a case is built to rejoin).

    Once we have new trade, immigration and regulatory powers, and it's a done deal, I expect both main parties to constructively argue how they'd use them.
    If that's the Leaver strategy, the country is going to remain divided for decades. The disgusting way in which Leavers have conducted themselves is not going to be forgotten with the passage of time. It's going to be the subject of folk myth. Far more active steps will be required to bridge the gap.
    Leavers won't tolerate Brexit being obstructed or frustrated.

    You need to get that through your head. Then, the discussion can move on.
    I am afraid you are wasting your time with Mr Meeks CR. He has turned into PB's very own one man lunatic fringe.
    His claims that the referendum campaign was particularly exceptional compared to every other election just doesn't resonate outside the PB bubble (and Anna Soubry's head).

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,831

    Leavers won't tolerate Brexit being obstructed or frustrated.

    When the DUP obstructed and frustrated Theresa May's deal, Leavers were cheering them on.
  • TGOHF said:

    His claims that the referendum campaign was particularly exceptional compared to every other election just doesn't resonate outside the PB bubble (and Anna Soubry's head).

    This week The Times made the argument Alastair been making for a while.

    Brexiteers will regret their pact with Farage

    Ministers who exploited fears about immigration to win the EU referendum are wrong to think they can ignore it now.

    Gove, Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox — are all themselves instinctively in favour of immigration. Indeed Mr Fox once had to be slapped down by the prime minister in cabinet when he suggested that any fall in the number of EU migrants could be outstripped by a rise in arrivals from other countries. For these liberal “buccaneers” the whole point of leaving the EU is to create a more open, “global” Britain that is outward-looking and welcoming to foreigners.

    To them, controlling the free movement of people is about ensuring there is parliamentary approval of the system rather than reducing the numbers coming into this country. They recoil from the xenophobia of Nigel Farage but they won the EU referendum by tapping into the more protectionist, anti-immigrant mood he embodies as well as the free market confidence of Eurosceptics like them.

    Consciously or not, the Tories in the official Vote Leave campaign struck a Faustian (or Faragian) pact with the Ukip-dominated Leave.EU movement. Even if they did not play the race card overtly themselves they benefited from it being played by others. Publicly they condemned Mr Farage’s “breaking point” poster, showing a queue of migrants, but privately they capitalised on its message. As the Tory peer Sayeeda Warsi said at the time, Vote Leave (backed by Mr Gove and Mr Johnson) ran a “nudge nudge, wink wink xenophobic” campaign. One ad claimed, misleadingly, that: “Turkey (76 million) is joining the EU”.

    Of course, immigration was not the driving force for all Brexit voters but Dominic Cummings, the Vote Leave campaign strategist, admits his camp would not have got to the critical 52 per cent without it. As he wrote on his blog: “Immigration was a baseball bat that just needed picking up at the right time and in the right way”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2017-12-12/comment/brexiteers-will-regret-theirpact-with-farage-38btktnc6
  • Mr. Eagles, that excerpt you post suggests they struck a Faustian pact with a campaign line with which they explicitly disagreed.

    Quoting Sayeeda Warsi, the woman who warned of militant secularists, hardly lends credibility to the logically challenging interpretation of reality the article expounds.

    When public disagreement is claimed as the exact opposite, you can make anyone 'say' anything.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    Does Norway have to pay a lot for the privilege?
    Does Norway have to take EU regulations directly in order to retain that privilege?
    Norway is not in the EU. Those elements are important to you. So the f*ck what? NORWAY IS NOT IN THE EU.

    It really is that simple.
    Calm down, dear. What does Norway have to do with the price of peanuts anyway?
  • Mr. Eagles, that excerpt you post suggests they struck a Faustian pact with a campaign line with which they explicitly disagreed.

    Quoting Sayeeda Warsi, the woman who warned of militant secularists, hardly lends credibility to the logically challenging interpretation of reality the article expounds.

    When public disagreement is claimed as the exact opposite, you can make anyone 'say' anything.

    Yet to ignore the quote from Dominic Cummings, why is that?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,941

    TGOHF said:

    His claims that the referendum campaign was particularly exceptional compared to every other election just doesn't resonate outside the PB bubble (and Anna Soubry's head).

    This week The Times made the argument Alastair been making for a while.

    Brexiteers will regret their pact with Farage

    Ministers who exploited fears about immigration to win the EU referendum are wrong to think they can ignore it now.

    Gove, Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox — are all themselves instinctively in favour of immigration. Indeed Mr Fox once had to be slapped down by the prime minister in cabinet when he suggested that any fall in the number of EU migrants could be outstripped by a rise in arrivals from other countries. For these liberal “buccaneers” the whole point of leaving the EU is to create a more open, “global” Britain that is outward-looking and welcoming to foreigners.

    To them, controlling the free movement of people is about ensuring there is parliamentary approval of the system rather than reducing the numbers coming into this country. They recoil from the xenophobia of Nigel Farage but they won the EU referendum by tapping into the more protectionist, anti-immigrant mood he embodies as well as the free market confidence of Eurosceptics like them.

    Consciously or not, the Tories in the official Vote Leave campaign struck a Faustian (or Faragian) pact with the Ukip-dominated Leave.EU movement. Even if they did not play the race card overtly themselves they benefited from it being played by others. Publicly they condemned Mr Farage’s “breaking point” poster, showing a queue of migrants, but privately they capitalised on its message. As the Tory peer Sayeeda Warsi said at the time, Vote Leave (backed by Mr Gove and Mr Johnson) ran a “nudge nudge, wink wink xenophobic” campaign. One ad claimed, misleadingly, that: “Turkey (76 million) is joining the EU”.

    Of course, immigration was not the driving force for all Brexit voters but Dominic Cummings, the Vote Leave campaign strategist, admits his camp would not have got to the critical 52 per cent without it. As he wrote on his blog: “Immigration was a baseball bat that just needed picking up at the right time and in the right way”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2017-12-12/comment/brexiteers-will-regret-theirpact-with-farage-38btktnc6

    So wait- nobody can ever mention immigration in an election campaign ?

    Merkel and Schultz tried that recently - didn't go so well.
  • Mr. Herdson, mildly surprised nobody's made a Norway debate jest yet...
  • FPT - @AlastairMeeks

    Many continental European politicians and EU apparatchiks believe passionately in their vision of a federal Europe (ever closer union) and do not view democratic votes in any EU member state as a legitimate to prevent or hinder it.

    Most people in the UK feel very differently, and do not share that vision.

    That is where the chronic distrust comes from. The EU's lack of understning of how (and why) the UK might see things very differently, and the belief most Eurosceptics share that they've been vindicated in the past (and continue to be now) in their predictions of ongoing federalisation (despite being often told that each successive Treaty means no such thing, and accused of foaming or ranting at the time) explains much of the emotion.

    It doesn't get more emotive that the destiny of your country and its democratic systems.

    It's not "chronic distrust". It's visceral hatred. Pretending otherwise is an impediment to the debate.

    [snip]
    Only for some. I do wonder whether you're ranting at the mirror a little there, in the same way that some Momentum types justify their own visceral hatred of the Tories and of specific Tory politicians by what they imagine to be the Tory 'hatred' of the working class / youth / [insert group of choice].

    CR is right: the problem was and is one of chronic distrust. Leave could never have come remotely close to winning with just the UKIP vote.
    Thanks. I've tried (genuinely) to engage with Alastair many times on this, but he makes it (for me) very difficult, and (to me) rather personal.

    I think the only way I could move the discussion forward now is to go for a pint with him, but, assuming he didn't refuse or ignore the request, which I think he would, I couldn't be confident he wouldn't shout or scream at me in the pub, or pour the beer over my head.

    I have close friends and family who have very different political opinions to me.

    We're bigger than this.
    I generally try not to make personal comments on individual posters. Someone else, because I can't be bothered, can count how many personal comments have been made on this thread alone already about me. As if somehow my arguments stood or fell on who I am.

    For some reason,, many Leavers seem to make general comments about Leavers, even when evidenced in detail, as personal to them. Guilt, I suspect.
  • Mr. Eagles, didn't see it upon first glance. His quote does not mean they agreed with the migration line, though.
  • Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 179

    Leavers won't tolerate Brexit being obstructed or frustrated.

    When the DUP obstructed and frustrated Theresa May's deal, Leavers were cheering them on.
    In the real world it doesn't matter what Leaver's think (full stop, for the avoidance of any doubt). Frankly they don't care what happens to my country, they are simply obsessed with reducing immigration without any thought for the consequences. When you look at the collapse in the UKIP vote in the local elections where is that going? Over to the Lib Dems who are, most assuredly, not in the Leave camp. I suggest that means real people don't like politics so simply vote against what those in power say (and that is why Leave won).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,168

    Hurrah for Dawid Malan.

    He's ridden his luck - and also played some excellent shots.
    Highest first day total for England in Australia since 2002...

    A matching century from YJB tomorrow would be nice.
  • As usual, Stephen Bush gets it right. The last sentence is key: the right wing press - and May’s decision to pander to it - is what cost the Tories their majority in June. The Daily Mail does not speak for England.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/12/does-government-s-commons-defeat-mean-brexit-can-be-stopped
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,130

    Blame Cameron. It was he who decided on the blank sheet of paper format. Davis and the others have just been trying to pick up the pieces afterwards.
    Nah, that's rubbish. The government has had long enough since the referendum result to make assessments on the different Brexit scenarios. If every City bank and law firm can do it then the government can as well. It's been over a year and we still don't know what the stated direction of the government's post Brexit trade policy will be. As someone who works overseas in a key industry, we've been waiting very patiently for word on what relationships he UK will prioritise and which they will chase etc...
  • Mr. Eagles, didn't see it upon first glance. His quote does not mean they agreed with the migration line, though.

    Yeah right.

    image
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,941
    edited December 2017
    The full list of comrade Gove and Johnson's crimes:

    * Winning the referendum
    * Setting up a rival referendum organisation to Farage
    * Not spending the entire referendum attacking Farage
    * Sympathising with a vast swathe of voters who aren't comfortable with unfettered immigration
    * Mentioning the official Turkish and EU position on Turkey's membership
    * Winning the votes of people with views that remainers don't like.

    Any others ?
  • Nigelb said:

    Hurrah for Dawid Malan.

    He's ridden his luck - and also played some excellent shots.
    Highest first day total for England in Australia since 2002...

    A matching century from YJB tomorrow would be nice.
    I'm hoping for a double century from YJB.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,837
    The animosity, hurt, vitriol and lingering sense of unfairness felt by the losing side in elections (and by people or causes that lose in other spheres of life) is becoming an unpleasant feature of our society.

    What is the root cause of the inability to accept defeat? Are we now reaping the rewards of the 'We can't have losers' mentality in education for the last 30 or so years? Do we have a generation of quasi adults ill equipped to deal with the realities losing or rejection after a cosseted and protected childhood, education and introduction to safe spaces?

    Have we produced a society that easily feels cheated and is unable to accept rejection? A society that demands rights without recognising the responsibilities on the other side of the equasion?

    There is increasing bitterness in the reaction exhibited by some in Labour / Momentum, and some Remainers. You see it in a wide sphere of life these days, aided by Internet exposure and single issue campaigns.

    Sad to see our humanity so devalued and intolerant..
  • TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    Does Norway have to pay a lot for the privilege?
    Does Norway have to take EU regulations directly in order to retain that privilege?
    No and No.
    Really? My understanding was that Norway paid the EU €400m a year, which for a country with a population only one-twelfth that of the UK's (albeit a richer one), would equate to about €5bn for one the UK's size. That's quite 'a lot' to me.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,312
    Ally_B said:

    Leavers won't tolerate Brexit being obstructed or frustrated.

    When the DUP obstructed and frustrated Theresa May's deal, Leavers were cheering them on.
    In the real world it doesn't matter what Leaver's think (full stop, for the avoidance of any doubt). Frankly they don't care what happens to my country, they are simply obsessed with reducing immigration without any thought for the consequences. When you look at the collapse in the UKIP vote in the local elections where is that going? Over to the Lib Dems who are, most assuredly, not in the Leave camp. I suggest that means real people don't like politics so simply vote against what those in power say (and that is why Leave won).
    Quite right. The majority of people know very little about, and are not particularly interested in, the EU - they just wanted to give "the establishment" a kicking. That also explains why many leavers still vote Labour - they are attracted by Corbyn's anti-establishment credentials, and that is more important to them than the detail of Labour's stance on Brexit.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,130

    Mr. Eagles, didn't see it upon first glance. His quote does not mean they agreed with the migration line, though.

    Yeah right.

    image
    Oh man that really was a great poster. It will be up there with "Labour isn't working" in the annals of political history. Agree with it or not (and I didn't) the poster we absolutely brilliant at getting it's point across, especially by highlighting Syria and Iraq which preyed on people's fear of terrorists. Along with the £350m claim, it made the remain camp's job incredibly difficult.
  • This week The Times made the argument Alastair been making for a while.

    Brexiteers will regret their pact with Farage

    Ministers who exploited fears about immigration to win the EU referendum are wrong to think they can ignore it now.

    Gove, Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox — are all themselves instinctively in favour of immigration. Indeed Mr Fox once had to be slapped down by the prime minister in cabinet when he suggested that any fall in the number of EU migrants could be outstripped by a rise in arrivals from other countries. For these liberal “buccaneers” the whole point of leaving the EU is to create a more open, “global” Britain that is outward-looking and welcoming to foreigners.

    To them, controlling the free movement of people is about ensuring there is parliamentary approval of the system rather than reducing the numbers coming into this country. They recoil from the xenophobia of Nigel Farage but they won the EU referendum by tapping into the more protectionist, anti-immigrant mood he embodies as well as the free market confidence of Eurosceptics like them.

    Consciously or not, the Tories in the official Vote Leave campaign struck a Faustian (or Faragian) pact with the Ukip-dominated Leave.EU movement. Even if they did not play the race card overtly themselves they benefited from it being played by others. Publicly they condemned Mr Farage’s “breaking point” poster, showing a queue of migrants, but privately they capitalised on its message. As the Tory peer Sayeeda Warsi said at the time, Vote Leave (backed by Mr Gove and Mr Johnson) ran a “nudge nudge, wink wink xenophobic” campaign. One ad claimed, misleadingly, that: “Turkey (76 million) is joining the EU”.

    Of course, immigration was not the driving force for all Brexit voters but Dominic Cummings, the Vote Leave campaign strategist, admits his camp would not have got to the critical 52 per cent without it. As he wrote on his blog: “Immigration was a baseball bat that just needed picking up at the right time and in the right way”.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six-days/2017-12-12/comment/brexiteers-will-regret-theirpact-with-farage-38btktnc6

    Your comment fails in only your second sentence. Brexiteers did not have a pact with Farage. Indeed they went out of their way to sideline Farage and UKIP to the extent that there were law suits threatened about it by Banks. Even UKIP's own MP chose not to side with Farage but instead went with the official campaign.

    The Remain campaign had such delightful characters as Gerry Adams on the same side but I suspect you would not describe that relationship as 'a pact' even though (unlike the Leave campaign) you did nothing at all to distance yourself from the IRA.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,941
    philiph said:

    The animosity, hurt, vitriol and lingering sense of unfairness felt by the losing side in elections (and by people or causes that lose in other spheres of life) is becoming an unpleasant feature of our society.

    What is the root cause of the inability to accept defeat? Are we now reaping the rewards of the 'We can't have losers' mentality in education for the last 30 or so years? Do we have a generation of quasi adults ill equipped to deal with the realities losing or rejection after a cosseted and protected childhood, education and introduction to safe spaces?

    Have we produced a society that easily feels cheated and is unable to accept rejection? A society that demands rights without recognising the responsibilities on the other side of the equasion?

    There is increasing bitterness in the reaction exhibited by some in Labour / Momentum, and some Remainers. You see it in a wide sphere of life these days, aided by Internet exposure and single issue campaigns.

    Sad to see our humanity so devalued and intolerant..

    +1 Excellent post.
  • philiph said:

    The animosity, hurt, vitriol and lingering sense of unfairness felt by the losing side in elections (and by people or causes that lose in other spheres of life) is becoming an unpleasant feature of our society.

    What is the root cause of the inability to accept defeat? Are we now reaping the rewards of the 'We can't have losers' mentality in education for the last 30 or so years? Do we have a generation of quasi adults ill equipped to deal with the realities losing or rejection after a cosseted and protected childhood, education and introduction to safe spaces?

    Have we produced a society that easily feels cheated and is unable to accept rejection? A society that demands rights without recognising the responsibilities on the other side of the equasion?

    There is increasing bitterness in the reaction exhibited by some in Labour / Momentum, and some Remainers. You see it in a wide sphere of life these days, aided by Internet exposure and single issue campaigns.

    Sad to see our humanity so devalued and intolerant..

    Should we all accept whoever or whatever won a particular election or referendum and shut up?
    If Corbyn wins the next election will you do so?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,130

    philiph said:

    The animosity, hurt, vitriol and lingering sense of unfairness felt by the losing side in elections (and by people or causes that lose in other spheres of life) is becoming an unpleasant feature of our society.

    What is the root cause of the inability to accept defeat? Are we now reaping the rewards of the 'We can't have losers' mentality in education for the last 30 or so years? Do we have a generation of quasi adults ill equipped to deal with the realities losing or rejection after a cosseted and protected childhood, education and introduction to safe spaces?

    Have we produced a society that easily feels cheated and is unable to accept rejection? A society that demands rights without recognising the responsibilities on the other side of the equasion?

    There is increasing bitterness in the reaction exhibited by some in Labour / Momentum, and some Remainers. You see it in a wide sphere of life these days, aided by Internet exposure and single issue campaigns.

    Sad to see our humanity so devalued and intolerant..

    Should we all accept whoever or whatever won a particular election or referendum and shut up?
    If Corbyn wins the next election will you do so?
    Unfortunately yes, I'd have to accept my ideas weren't right and reformulate them for the next election so I could win more votes
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,831
    MaxPB said:

    Mr. Eagles, didn't see it upon first glance. His quote does not mean they agreed with the migration line, though.

    Yeah right.

    image
    Oh man that really was a great poster. It will be up there with "Labour isn't working" in the annals of political history. Agree with it or not (and I didn't) the poster we absolutely brilliant at getting it's point across, especially by highlighting Syria and Iraq which preyed on people's fear of terrorists. Along with the £350m claim, it made the remain camp's job incredibly difficult.
    But its point was a lie. A tourist visa-waiver programme for the Schengen zone for qualifying Turkish citizens doesn't change anything for the UK as we're not in the Schengen zone.
  • TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    Does Norway have to pay a lot for the privilege?
    Does Norway have to take EU regulations directly in order to retain that privilege?
    No and No.
    Really? My understanding was that Norway paid the EU €400m a year, which for a country with a population only one-twelfth that of the UK's (albeit a richer one), would equate to about €5bn for one the UK's size. That's quite 'a lot' to me.
    The amount paid is not based on population size. It is based on GDP. Furthermore in the case of Norway most of the payments they make, excepting those for specific projects, are voluntary. Both Robert Smithson and I went through the numbers prior to the referendum when we were pushing hard for the Norway option and came up with a figure of around £2 billion a year if we were to match Norway's position.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,642
    edited December 2017

    philiph said:

    The animosity, hurt, vitriol and lingering sense of unfairness felt by the losing side in elections (and by people or causes that lose in other spheres of life) is becoming an unpleasant feature of our society.

    What is the root cause of the inability to accept defeat? Are we now reaping the rewards of the 'We can't have losers' mentality in education for the last 30 or so years? Do we have a generation of quasi adults ill equipped to deal with the realities losing or rejection after a cosseted and protected childhood, education and introduction to safe spaces?

    Have we produced a society that easily feels cheated and is unable to accept rejection? A society that demands rights without recognising the responsibilities on the other side of the equasion?

    There is increasing bitterness in the reaction exhibited by some in Labour / Momentum, and some Remainers. You see it in a wide sphere of life these days, aided by Internet exposure and single issue campaigns.

    Sad to see our humanity so devalued and intolerant..

    Should we all accept whoever or whatever won a particular election or referendum and shut up?
    If Corbyn wins the next election will you do so?
    Is the point Leavers miss.

    What on earth, on a politics blog of all places, do people expect?

    Do they think I or, say, @Casino_Royale, on Day One of a Corbyn Government, would make posts saying: good call UK not my choice but fair play to you all, I see now it was the right thing to do: let's get to it; those PLCs aren't going to nationalise themselves.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,130

    MaxPB said:

    Mr. Eagles, didn't see it upon first glance. His quote does not mean they agreed with the migration line, though.

    Yeah right.

    image
    Oh man that really was a great poster. It will be up there with "Labour isn't working" in the annals of political history. Agree with it or not (and I didn't) the poster we absolutely brilliant at getting it's point across, especially by highlighting Syria and Iraq which preyed on people's fear of terrorists. Along with the £350m claim, it made the remain camp's job incredibly difficult.
    But its point was a lie. A tourist visa-waiver programme for the Schengen zone for qualifying Turkish citizens doesn't change anything for the UK as we're not in the Schengen zone.
    Explaining is losing. Politics 101. The problem is that there was an ounce of truth within that poster, so it meant remain had to explain the minutiae of Turkey being a candidate for the EU (negative) but not in Schengen (confusing) and the UK not being in Schengen (irrelevant).

    Just like the £350m poster explaining that it was actually only ~£200m hurt them more than it helped.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,831

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    Does Norway have to pay a lot for the privilege?
    Does Norway have to take EU regulations directly in order to retain that privilege?
    No and No.
    Really? My understanding was that Norway paid the EU €400m a year, which for a country with a population only one-twelfth that of the UK's (albeit a richer one), would equate to about €5bn for one the UK's size. That's quite 'a lot' to me.
    The amount paid is not based on population size. It is based on GDP. Furthermore in the case of Norway most of the payments they make, excepting those for specific projects, are voluntary. Both Robert Smithson and I went through the numbers prior to the referendum when we were pushing hard for the Norway option and came up with a figure of around £2 billion a year if we were to match Norway's position.
    Yes, I remember interminable debates about how we could just apply to join EFTA and then the EU would just have to lump us staying in the EEA...

    Will you at least admit that you were mistaken about this, and hadn't considered, to name one factor, the requirements of the Good Friday Agreement?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,498
    Mr Song,

    If 'Ol bonehead wins the next election and becomes PM, I will accept it.

    I will retain my opinion of him unless he does much better than I expect, but he'd be the legitimate PM.

    Mr h has made a good point. Democracy is democracy even when you dislike the result.

    The old gits I drink with occasionally split 3 - 3 over the referendum. They haven't changed their minds but 5 now think we should leave to uphold the referendum result. The odd one out was always a Euro-fanatic, so we excuse him a little.
  • MaxPB said:

    Blame Cameron. It was he who decided on the blank sheet of paper format. Davis and the others have just been trying to pick up the pieces afterwards.
    Nah, that's rubbish. The government has had long enough since the referendum result to make assessments on the different Brexit scenarios. If every City bank and law firm can do it then the government can as well. It's been over a year and we still don't know what the stated direction of the government's post Brexit trade policy will be. As someone who works overseas in a key industry, we've been waiting very patiently for word on what relationships he UK will prioritise and which they will chase etc...
    Sorry Max you miss the point. Davis's argument in 2002 and mine now are that, by effectively asking for voters to answer a single question which can have no single answer, Cameron has made it almost impossible to get a Brexit that is agreeable to a wide range of people. Everyone read something different into what they were being asked and trying to square that circle now means that significant numbers of people will be able to claim the spirit of the referendum is not being met.

    I agree that the work of the Government including Davis since they took over has been dire. But that is almost a separate issue to the one that Davis was referring to about blank paper referendums.
  • Mr. Eagles, very cruel of that poster to agree with David Cameron's position on Turkey.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,181
    philiph said:

    The animosity, hurt, vitriol and lingering sense of unfairness felt by the losing side in elections (and by people or causes that lose in other spheres of life) is becoming an unpleasant feature of our society.

    Ummmm, look at the reaction to last night's vote

    It's the "winners" who have been completely unhinged.
  • TOPPING said:

    TGOHF said:

    Following the discussion on sovereignty in the last thread, I'm not sure it's such hypocrisy for Leavers to be exasperated or concerned about the vote yesterday. The HoC chose to hold the referendum, designed it, voted it through, and figures of all major parties loudly spoke of how the referendum result would be followed whatever it was.

    In my personal opinion this whole thing is parliament's mess first of all, and though the vote last night was probably for the best in terms of holding the government's handling of Brexit accountable it has also raised the possibility of a bigger mess if parliament does end up rejecti g the whole process after all.

    I think that the frustration is due to a lack of trust in the remainer Tory MPs - many suspect playing the "sovereignty" card is just an excuse to try and block Brexit and "get one up" Mrs May for following the result of the referendum.

    Why does it still need saying that the result of the referendum didn't mandate any particular type of Brexit. It does make a difference what is decided by May and the three Brexiteers. It does need scrutiny and it does need the HoC to take control and vote on it.
    Amazing that this needs repeating.

    Does Norway have FOM? Yes
    Does Norway take part in the Single Market? Yes
    Is Norway a member of the EU? No
    Does Norway have to pay a lot for the privilege?
    Does Norway have to take EU regulations directly in order to retain that privilege?
    No and No.
    Really? My understanding was that Norway paid the EU €400m a year, which for a country with a population only one-twelfth that of the UK's (albeit a richer one), would equate to about €5bn for one the UK's size. That's quite 'a lot' to me.
    The amount paid is not based on population size. It is based on GDP. Furthermore in the case of Norway most of the payments they make, excepting those for specific projects, are voluntary. Both Robert Smithson and I went through the numbers prior to the referendum when we were pushing hard for the Norway option and came up with a figure of around £2 billion a year if we were to match Norway's position.
    How much is Canada paying for their trade deal with the EU?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,837

    philiph said:

    The animosity, hurt, vitriol and lingering sense of unfairness felt by the losing side in elections (and by people or causes that lose in other spheres of life) is becoming an unpleasant feature of our society.

    What is the root cause of the inability to accept defeat? Are we now reaping the rewards of the 'We can't have losers' mentality in education for the last 30 or so years? Do we have a generation of quasi adults ill equipped to deal with the realities losing or rejection after a cosseted and protected childhood, education and introduction to safe spaces?

    Have we produced a society that easily feels cheated and is unable to accept rejection? A society that demands rights without recognising the responsibilities on the other side of the equasion?

    There is increasing bitterness in the reaction exhibited by some in Labour / Momentum, and some Remainers. You see it in a wide sphere of life these days, aided by Internet exposure and single issue campaigns.

    Sad to see our humanity so devalued and intolerant..

    Should we all accept whoever or whatever won a particular election or referendum and shut up?
    If Corbyn wins the next election will you do so?
    If you win an election you win. If you get 35% FPTP and have a majority, you win. Those are the rules for all sides when the contest begins.

    A pretty simple situation really.
  • Yes, I remember interminable debates about how we could just apply to join EFTA and then the EU would just have to lump us staying in the EEA...

    Will you at least admit that you were mistaken about this, and hadn't considered, to name one factor, the requirements of the Good Friday Agreement?

    They are two separate issues. I still stand by the position that if we joined EFTA we would legally remain part of the EEA as long as it was a straight transition from EU to EFTA.

    The question of the GFA is entirely separate and needs separate negotiation.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,130

    MaxPB said:

    Blame Cameron. It was he who decided on the blank sheet of paper format. Davis and the others have just been trying to pick up the pieces afterwards.
    Nah, that's rubbish. The government has had long enough since the referendum result to make assessments on the different Brexit scenarios. If every City bank and law firm can do it then the government can as well. It's been over a year and we still don't know what the stated direction of the government's post Brexit trade policy will be. As someone who works overseas in a key industry, we've been waiting very patiently for word on what relationships he UK will prioritise and which they will chase etc...
    Sorry Max you miss the point. Davis's argument in 2002 and mine now are that, by effectively asking for voters to answer a single question which can have no single answer, Cameron has made it almost impossible to get a Brexit that is agreeable to a wide range of people. Everyone read something different into what they were being asked and trying to square that circle now means that significant numbers of people will be able to claim the spirit of the referendum is not being met.

    I agree that the work of the Government including Davis since they took over has been dire. But that is almost a separate issue to the one that Davis was referring to about blank paper referendums.
    Tbh, leave probably would have lost if it didn't mean multiple different solutions. A blank sheet of paper is what allowed leave to win.

    However, over a year later we still have a blank sheet of paper. It's now damaging the UK's overseas relationships. Lots of nations are looking worried that we will continue to prioritise a relationship with the EU over a global perspective and there is no clarity coming from any government department.
This discussion has been closed.