'course it is - I think I mentioned that in one of my posts. But the fact is that, just as that bloke on QT last night who everyone portrayed as a hero of modern Britain, and as also told to us repeatedly by those who know, the referendum was won by those who want fewer foreigners.
I can perfectly understand your reluctance to grasp this nettle but there you have it; we as a nation just voted for fewer foreigners. People may not hate them, I'm sure you don't, but we as a country voted to make the UK less welcoming for them.
I don't know how else I can say this.
So because one idiot says something on QT your thesis is complete. You ignore completely the fact that T.May and every other Tory within and without the government along with the vast majority of other leading leavers have given a completely different message. It is because you want to wallow in defeat and lash out at those who took a different view. I don't know how else I can say this.
So now the QT guy who all the Leavers were praising earlier today is an idiot?
The Leave campaign was centred around immigration and thegly obvious.
Oh grow up for heavens sake. 'Them's the facts' ! Spend some time with a dictionary to discover the difference between fact and opinion. While you're at it try a thesaurus for 'sore loser'.
LOL patronising, much?
I appreciate that it suits your conscience to portray me as a bitter Remoaner who is inventing the malicious nature of the Leave campaign but I'm afraid I'm not the one who built the campaign on a heap of scaremongering lies.
'course it is - I think I mentioned that in one of my posts. But the fact is that, just as that bloke on QT last night who everyone portrayed as a hero of modern Britain, and as also told to us repeatedly by those who know, the referendum was won by those who want fewer foreigners.
I can perfectly understand your reluctance to grasp this nettle but there you have it; we as a nation just voted for fewer foreigners. People may not hate them, I'm sure you don't, but we as a country voted to make the UK less welcoming for them.
I don't know how else I can say this.
So because one idiot says something on QT your thesis is complete. You ignore completely the fact that T.May and every other Tory within and without the government along with the vast majority of other leading leavers have given a completely different message. It is because you want to wallow in defeat and lash out at those who took a different view. I don't know how else I can say this.
So now the QT guy who all the Leavers were praising earlier today is an idiot?
The Leave campaign was centred around immigration and thegly obvious.
Oh grow up for heavens sake. 'Them's the facts' ! Spend some time with a dictionary to discover the difference between fact and opinion. While you're at it try a thesaurus for 'sore loser'.
LOL patronising, much?
I appreciate that it suits your conscience to portray me as a bitter Remoaner who is inventing the malicious nature of the Leave campaign but I'm afraid I'm not the one who built the campaign on a heap of scaremongering lies.
why are you dragging George Osborne in to this ?
I would have said bitter Remoaner who is at the very centre of current British politics, whose writing is unmissable, and who is shaping the political narrative, earning a shedload of money the while.
A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.
The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.
As to the other side's lies ( @ReggieCide), George Osborne said there would be an emergency budget, and severely negative consequences just after the vote. And indeed GBP dropped 15% overnight.
7% against the USD, bit less against the Euro.
For comparison, after the crash in 2008 the pound dropped 27% against the USD in the next 6mths.
I disagree. Membership is massively different from participation on a rule-taking basis. Norway is cool with outsourcing the major part of its foreign policy to a third party. I can't see the UK being so easy-going And even so, the Norwegian government thinks its a nonsense. They have to accept it because they know they won't win a referendum on EU membership.
Yes you are right about that of course. The role of rule taker is a very silly position for the UK to get itself into. But I don't think many voters will worry about the detail - all they will see is continuing free movement, EU regulation and all the other trappings of membership.
FF43 is wrong. Norway do not outsource their foreign policy. Indeed they have more direct control over their foreign and trade policy than the UK does.
Norway has no direct input into any EEA-related regulation and legislation. In practice the government and parliament don't even discuss what they want from it because they know it will be ignored. This is in contrast to EU membership as we had, where we had direct input.
To avoid pointless discussions about how much of Norway's foreign policy is covered by its EEA participation I will correct my original post to Norway is cool with outsourcing A major part of its foreign policy to a third party - rather than THE major part.
Still not true. For a start trade us a very small part of foreign policy. Moreover Norway has input at every stage of the process of creating new EEA legislation with the exception of the final vote and if they disagree on that they have a veto. They have exercised this twice in recent years on rail and postal regulation.
Edit: oh and while the UK has to cede its place at the table to the EU for all international trade and regulatory bodies, Norway has a full seat with voting rights. As i say they have far more control than the UK does.
Thanks for this article. The young are indeed making their voices heard (Youthquake anyone?) but not uniformly. My 17 y.o. son is a firm Brexiteer having come to the view that the EU project is a political construct with many economic weaknesses similar to the former Yugoslavia. The whole Brexit issue is causing so much anger because it changes how all of us see ourselves, and that kind of fundamental change is challenging...
As to the other side's lies ( @ReggieCide), George Osborne said there would be an emergency budget, and severely negative consequences just after the vote. And indeed GBP dropped 15% overnight.
7% against the USD, bit less against the Euro.
For comparison, after the crash in 2008 the pound dropped 27% against the USD in the next 6mths.
So because one idiot says something on know how else I can say this.
So now the QT guy who all the Leavers were praising earlier today is an idiot?
The Leave campaign was centred around imm the spring in your step you undoubtedly have. But them's the facts.
As for wallowing in defeat? Not at all. I am posting on a political chatroom on the internet. And enjoying it even if at times it is frustrating on account of the wilful disinclination of other contributors to see what the whole world knows to be blindingly obvious.
Oh grow up for heavens sake. 'Them's the facts' ! Spend some time with a dictionary to discover the difference between fact and opinion. While you're at it try a thesaurus for 'sore loser'.
LOL patronising, much?
I appreciate that it suits your conscience to portray me as a bitter Remoaner who is inventing the malicious nature of the Leave campaign but I'm afraid I'm not the one who built the campaign on a heap of scaremongering lies.
Being ever so humble I assumed you'd enjoy being patronised. You are correct about the campaign - there were lies on both sides. That's pretty much the way politics works. Maybe you're just new to it.
Finally! We have established that the Leave campaign was built on a heap of scaremongering lies. God anyone would have thought I'd said the earth was flat, such was the reaction to such a bleedin' obvious point.
As to the other side's lies ( @ReggieCide), George Osborne said there would be an emergency budget, and severely negative consequences just after the vote. And indeed GBP dropped 15% overnight. Luckily, the wisdom of Mark Carney in reassuring the markets with an immediate rate cut, and the display of preparedness displayed by both him and GO, together with the rate cut, meant that a recession was avoided and people kept on spending (which is of course a huge component of our GDP growth).
I disagree. Membership is massively different from participation on a rule-taking basis. Norway is cool with outsourcing the major part of its foreign policy to a third party. I can't see the UK being so easy-going And even so, the Norwegian government thinks its a nonsense. They have to accept it because they know they won't win a referendum on EU membership.
Yes you are right about that of course. The role of rule taker is a very silly position for the UK to get itself into. But I don't think many voters will worry about the detail - all they will see is continuing free movement, EU regulation and all the other trappings of membership.
FF43 is wrong. Norway do not outsource their foreign policy. Indeed they have more direct control over their foreign and trade policy than the UK does.
Norway has no direct input into any EEA-related regulation and legislation. In practice the government and parliament don't even discuss what they want from it because they know it will be ignored. This is in contrast to EU membership as we had, where we had direct input.
To avoid pointless discussions about how much of Norway's foreign policy is covered by its EEA participation I will correct my original post to Norway is cool with outsourcing A major part of its foreign policy to a third party - rather than THE major part.
Still not true. For a start trade us a very small part of foreign policy. Moreover Norway has inputvat every stage of the process of creating new EEA legislation with the exception of the final vote and if they disagree on that they have a veto. They have exercised this twice in recent years on rail and postal regulation.
Edit: oh and while the UK has to cede its place at the table to the EU for all international trade and regulatory bodies, Norway has a full seat with voting rights. As i say they have far more control than the UK does.
Plus, if Sweden or Denmark step out of line, Norway can just buy them with its Wealth Fund.....
As to the other side's lies ( @ReggieCide), George Osborne said there would be an emergency budget, and severely negative consequences just after the vote. And indeed GBP dropped 15% overnight.
7% against the USD, bit less against the Euro.
For comparison, after the crash in 2008 the pound dropped 27% against the USD in the next 6mths.
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
That was a sovereign democratically-elected government making decisions about what was right for the country. You happened to disagree, doesn't make it wrong or a lie.
As to the other side's lies ( @ReggieCide), George Osborne said there would be an emergency budget, and severely negative consequences just after the vote. And indeed GBP dropped 15% overnight.
7% against the USD, bit less against the Euro.
For comparison, after the crash in 2008 the pound dropped 27% against the USD in the next 6mths.
'course it is - I think I mentioned that in one of my posts. But the fact is that, just as that bloke on QT last night who everyone portrayed as a hero of modern Britain, and as also told to us repeatedly by those who know, the referendum was won by those who want fewer foreigners.
I can perfectly understand your reluctance to grasp this nettle but there you have it; we as a nation just voted for fewer foreigners. People may not hate them, I'm sure you don't, but we as a country voted to make the UK less welcoming for them.
I don't know how else I can say this.
So because one idiot says something on QT your thesis is complete. You ignore completely the fact that T.May and every other Tory within and without the government along with the vast majority of other leading leavers have given a completely different message. It is because you want to wallow in defeat and lash out at those who took a different view. I don't know how else I can say this.
So now the QT guy who all the Leavers were praising earlier today is an idiot?
The Leave campaign was centred around immigration and thegly obvious.
Oh grow up for heavens sake. 'Them's the facts' ! Spend some time with a dictionary to discover the difference between fact and opinion. While you're at it try a thesaurus for 'sore loser'.
LOL patronising, much?
I appreciate that it suits your conscience to portray me as a bitter Remoaner who is inventing the malicious nature of the Leave campaign but I'm afraid I'm not the one who built the campaign on a heap of scaremongering lies.
why are you dragging George Osborne in to this ?
I would have said bitter Remoaner who is at the very centre of current British politics, whose writing is unmissable, and who is shaping the political narrative, earning a shedload of money the while.
AM is saying that if leavers were really sincere in condemning threats then they would change their minds and remain. Until they do - their concerns and sympathy are worthless.
I doubt there is a greater number of of death threats against politicians today than there were in previous years. It's just that in previous years, before twitter and facebook, the threats were heard by only a handful of people in the pub and nobody took them seriously. Now they reach a wider audience and everyone panics. Which only encourages nutters to issue more threats.
I disagree. I'm quite sure that there's more now, partly because social media is both simple and anonymous - even writing a letter took much more time and effort than sending a tweet, but also simply because there's more anger now.
Politicians did used to have to beware of terrorist groups but the threat from the general public, from nationalist extremists to ISIS-inspired lone wolves, is demonstrably greater now than it was in, say, the 1980s.
The IRA threat to politicians (though not necessarily the general public) in the 1970s and 1980s was much greater than any threat we have today. But attitudes to security were different, despite the ongoing IRA campaign there was no security at all at Westminster before the assassination of Airey Neave in 1979. Anyone could walk in to the central lobby. It was felt that obtrusive security would create barriers between MPs and the public - a view which would not get far today. Of course at that time most MPs had lived through - and often fought in - the second world war so they had faced much greater threats and terrorism did not seem as serious as it does today in our much more peaceful society.
On the Barnsley thing. Yes, Barnsley has been a low immigration area, but what it does have is first wave immigration, an immigration that has been predominately from Eastern Europe, from EU free movement.
I think the attitudes shown there, or in NE Derbyshire or in Lincolnshire may actually compare favourably with first large wave immigrations to London 60 years ago, or to Italy 20 years ago, or to Eastern Europe now. Which is not to say they are good, but that there has been at least some account taken of the broader cultural landscape in the UK beyond their own towns or WWC neighbourhoods.
There was an intetesting article on Bloomberg a couple of days ago about Thetford. Over 60 % in favour of Brexit at the referendum. Population of 27,000. Polish population 8,000 and Portuguese population 5,000.
What I found amusing is that some of the Leave vote was found to have come from the Portuguese who arrived a few decades ago but who were unhappy with recent Eastern European migrantion.
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
That was a sovereign democratically-elected government making decisions about what was right for the country. You happened to disagree, doesn't make it wrong or a lie.
Very poor threader article. It's just a long, unedited whinge about how beastly it is that the majority won't defer to the minority, who are clearly better people in all respects.
Well I made that point but apparently as it mentions a nasty Labour poster from a decade ago it's fair and balanced.
I have written quite a few thread headers critical of the Remain camp and the EU. I don’t assume that one side has all the virtue and the other does not. I don’t think that the majority should defer to the minority but it should take account of them. I utterly deplore and loathe the name calling and divisiveness, wherever it comes from. The Remain camp have not always behaved well, to put it mildly.
But the government has from the start got the tone very wrong IMO and this has not served the country well. We would all do well to listen to each other and have a bit of empathy rather than snarl.
If those who voted Leave did so because they felt ignored by the establishment (and I have more sympathy for this than you might assume) why do this in turn to those who are on the losing side now and create yet another cause for resentment?
I do not need to be fair and balanced. I write what I hope will stimulate an interesting discussion for others.
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
That was a sovereign democratically-elected government making decisions about what was right for the country. You happened to disagree, doesn't make it wrong or a lie.
Didn't the Labour government promise a referendum on lisbon,wasn't that a lie ?
Very poor threader article. It's just a long, unedited whinge about how beastly it is that the majority won't defer to the minority, who are clearly better people in all respects.
Well I made that point but apparently as it mentions a nasty Labour poster from a decade ago it's fair and balanced.
I have written quite a few thread headers critical of the Remain camp and the EU. I don’t assume that one side has all the virtue and the other does not. I don’t think that the majority should defer to the minority but it should take account of them. I utterly deplore and loathe the name calling and divisiveness, wherever it comes from. The Remain camp have not always behaved well, to put it mildly.
But the government has from the start got the tone very wrong IMO and this has not served the country well. We would all do well to listen to each other and have a bit of empathy rather than snarl.
If those who voted Leave did so because they felt ignored by the establishment (and I have more sympathy for this than you might assume) why do this in turn to those who are on the losing side now and create yet another cause for resentment?
I do not need to be fair and balanced. I write what I hope will stimulate an interesting discussion for others.
I don't think the government got the tone wrong at all - the PM's speeches including Florence have been very balanced and pragmatic.
Fringe actors on both sides have come out with vinegar and wind but well that's politics.
If it's any help, in addition to my naturally engaging and charming manner to all and sundry, I did make a point of humming 'Don't Let's be Beastly to the Germans' as I walked the dogs this afternoon. The healing waves were almost palpable.
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
That was a sovereign democratically-elected government making decisions about what was right for the country. You happened to disagree, doesn't make it wrong or a lie.
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
That was a sovereign democratically-elected government making decisions about what was right for the country. You happened to disagree, doesn't make it wrong or a lie.
A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.
The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
That was a sovereign democratically-elected government making decisions about what was right for the country. You happened to disagree, doesn't make it wrong or a lie.
You happened to disagree
TJ and 17.4 million other people
Are you losing it Alan?
no
I voted on the winning side of the referendum
If it makes you happy in life then I’m pleased for you.
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
That was a sovereign democratically-elected government making decisions about what was right for the country. You happened to disagree, doesn't make it wrong or a lie.
You happened to disagree
TJ and 17.4 million other people
Are you losing it Alan?
no
I voted on the winning side of the referendum
If it makes you happy in life then I’m pleased for you.
it doesnt really worry me one way or the other
we'll end up with more or less the type of arrangement Id like to see
About 1.42 to 1.32 immediately, if you use multi-month averages (which are much more meaningful than particular spikes/dips). Then 3 months later (the flash crash) down to the low 1.20s, and from approx. May it's been climbing to the current low/mid 1.30s.
Worth putting in context though: two years before the vote the pound was at 1.70, and a year at 1.55.
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
That was a sovereign democratically-elected government making decisions about what was right for the country. You happened to disagree, doesn't make it wrong or a lie.
You happened to disagree
TJ and 17.4 million other people
Are you losing it Alan?
no
I voted on the winning side of the referendum
If it makes you happy in life then I’m pleased for you.
Topping you should be aiming your anger at the blair/Brown governments instead of leave voters,those two caused more harm to the remain side than you would think.
Can you explain what that means in layman's terms?
Mrs May wanted to enshrine into law that we would be exiting the EU at 11pm UK time on March 29th 2019.
This amendment will remove that requirement to leave on that specified time and date, and the government is expected to support that amendment (because if they didn't, they'd lose the vote)
Thanks for this article. The young are indeed making their voices heard (Youthquake anyone?) but not uniformly. My 17 y.o. son is a firm Brexiteer having come to the view that the EU project is a political construct with many economic weaknesses similar to the former Yugoslavia. The whole Brexit issue is causing so much anger because it changes how all of us see ourselves, and that kind of fundamental change is challenging. We all need to be kinder to each other, hard though it is.
Excellent Post.
Can I just point out how ridiculous it is that 17y/o’s are prevented from voting.
While I profoundly disagree with that argument - if someone is intellectually capable of making the Yugoslavia comparison, they should be able to vote. Whether you’re 17 (or even younger) or 77. You pass the test.
If anyone needs to travel, surely it's him? I don't see what the issue is.
Ministerial travel needs to be cost effective.
He should be flying on Ryanair, Easyjet, or go on the train
I find it difficult to see how any reasonable observer could consider DD's need for quick, reliable and discreet transport to regular meeting as anything other than a basic requirement.
You could well imagine the hysterical reaction if private briefings between DD and his staff en-route to Brussels via RYR were posted on social media.
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles
He does.
David Davis has been accused of “wasting tens of thousands of pounds” after demanding use of a private RAF plane for Brexit talks.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles
He does.
David Davis has been accused of “wasting tens of thousands of pounds” after demanding use of a private RAF plane for Brexit talks.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles, and the rest of his trips round Europe on Ryanair and Easyjet.
He's not solely going to Bruxelles.
It would hardly be tactful to arrive at that hotbed of garlic-chewing scoundrels on a service which used to depart from London W*t*rloo. Mr Davis is a thoughtful and sensitive man.
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles
He does.
David Davis has been accused of “wasting tens of thousands of pounds” after demanding use of a private RAF plane for Brexit talks.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles, and the rest of his trips round Europe on Ryanair and Easyjet.
He's not solely going to Bruxelles.
It would hardly be tactful to arrive at that hotbed of garlic-chewing scoundrels on a service which used to depart from London W*t*rloo. Mr Davis is a thoughtful and sensitive man.
You've not travelled on Eurostar for a while have you?
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles
He does.
David Davis has been accused of “wasting tens of thousands of pounds” after demanding use of a private RAF plane for Brexit talks.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
Seriously? If anyone needs a place to work all hours of the day it's him. The cost of £50k is microscopic in the grand scheme of things.
Some heroic straw clutching going on - 'Cabinet Office Investigation' turns out to be calls by a Remainer Labour MP for a Cabinet Office investigation.....
Norway has no direct input into any EEA-related regulation and legislation. In practice the government and parliament don't even discuss what they want from it because they know it will be ignored. This is in contrast to EU membership as we had, where we had direct input.
To avoid pointless discussions about how much of Norway's foreign policy is covered by its EEA participation I will correct my original post to Norway is cool with outsourcing A major part of its foreign policy to a third party - rather than THE major part.
Still not true. For a start trade us a very small part of foreign policy.
The EEA covers European immigration, banking rules, environmental policy, product standards, consumer protection, energy policy, competition rules and labour law as well as the bulk of Norway's trade. As I say, it's pointless to put a percentage on this as a proportion of Norway's foreign policy, but it is certainly very significant. Given the EU opt-outs held by the UK, it's arguably not massively different from our EU exposure.
Moreover Norway has input at every stage of the process of creating new EEA legislation with the exception of the final vote ...
The EEA countries have to implement EU directives after they have passed. Norwegian influence on EU lawmaking as a non-member is very limited and entirely informal.
...and if they disagree on that they have a veto. They have exercised this twice in recent years on rail and postal regulation.
I am not aware of the rail regulation issue, but I do know something about the postal regulation one. As you say, EEA members can refuse to implement an EU directive. This "veto" can have severe and unexpected consequences, as the annexe the directive applies to then falls for all EEA members. If for example, the postal directive is implemented through the services annexe, Norway and the other EEA countries could find themselves barred from supplying any services under the EEA agreement. Which is why the veto has never to my knowledge been applied, including for Norwegian postal services. Norway was found by the EU to be non-compliant, the Norwegian government threatened to use their veto and subsequently backed down.
Edit: oh and while the UK has to cede its place at the table to the EU for all international trade and regulatory bodies, Norway has a full seat with voting rights.
True. Although the direct benefit of this is likely to be limited.
A related point: Leave may have won the vote but they have already completely lost the culture war. In coming generations, Brexit will be seen as an act of malevolent and insular stupidity (thanks in large part to the manner in which the referendum was fought). Future fairy tales will cast Nigel Farage as Maleficent.
The country will move on when the Conservative party is abandoned on Vagra II.
Edited extra bit: ha, I misread your second line, I thought you were asking what Viagra II was. Ahem.
You two need to get your minds out of the gutter.
Vagra II was a geeky reference from Star Trek The Next Generation.
To quote a fan site:
"A race of "titans" brought out from within themselves all evil and negative attributes that had bound them to destructiveness. The unwanted substance spread and coalesced into a dank and vile second skin. The race rejected this "skin of evil" and abandoned it on the barren planet Vagra II in the Zed Lapis sector."
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles, and the rest of his trips round Europe on Ryanair and Easyjet.
He's not solely going to Bruxelles.
It would hardly be tactful to arrive at that hotbed of garlic-chewing scoundrels on a service which used to depart from London W*t*rloo. Mr Davis is a thoughtful and sensitive man.
You've not travelled on Eurostar for a while have you?
If anyone needs to travel, surely it's him? I don't see what the issue is.
Ministerial travel needs to be cost effective.
He should be flying on Ryanair, Easyjet, or go on the train
I find it difficult to see how any reasonable observer could consider DD's need for quick, reliable and discreet transport to regular meeting as anything other than a basic requirement.
You could well imagine the hysterical reaction if private briefings between DD and his staff en-route to Brussels via RYR were posted on social media.
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles
He does.
David Davis has been accused of “wasting tens of thousands of pounds” after demanding use of a private RAF plane for Brexit talks.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
Seriously? If anyone needs a place to work all hours of the day it's him. The cost of £50k is microscopic in the grand scheme of things.
Some heroic straw clutching going on - 'Cabinet Office Investigation' turns out to be calls by a Remainer Labour MP for a Cabinet Office investigation.....
You're missing the story aren't you.
The story first emerged in Tim Shipman's book, David Davis denied it, now the evidence from an FOI is that David Davis has been caught telling porkies.
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles
He does.
David Davis has been accused of “wasting tens of thousands of pounds” after demanding use of a private RAF plane for Brexit talks.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
Seriously? If anyone needs a place to work all hours of the day it's him. The cost of £50k is microscopic in the grand scheme of things.
Some heroic straw clutching going on - 'Cabinet Office Investigation' turns out to be calls by a Remainer Labour MP for a Cabinet Office investigation.....
You're missing the story aren't you.
It isn't a story.
'Government Minister involved in international negotiations flies on government plane' isn't going to swing many votes.....
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles
He does.
David Davis has been accused of “wasting tens of thousands of pounds” after demanding use of a private RAF plane for Brexit talks.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
Seriously? If anyone needs a place to work all hours of the day it's him. The cost of £50k is microscopic in the grand scheme of things.
Some heroic straw clutching going on - 'Cabinet Office Investigation' turns out to be calls by a Remainer Labour MP for a Cabinet Office investigation.....
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
That was a sovereign democratically-elected government making decisions about what was right for the country. You happened to disagree, doesn't make it wrong or a lie.
You happened to disagree
TJ and 17.4 million other people
Are you losing it Alan?
no
I voted on the winning side of the referendum
If it makes you happy in life then I’m pleased for you.
Topping you should be aiming your anger at the blair/Brown governments instead of leave voters,those two caused more harm to the remain side than you would think.
How is saying "I'm happy for you" aiming my anger!!! Is there no pleasing some Leavers!?
@Topping ,remain lies were told years earlier on lisbon and the new Eastern European states joining that immigration would be around 13 thousand from these countries -one of the biggest porkies yet ;-)
That was a sovereign democratically-elected government making decisions about what was right for the country. You happened to disagree, doesn't make it wrong or a lie.
You happened to disagree
TJ and 17.4 million other people
Are you losing it Alan?
no
I voted on the winning side of the referendum
If it makes you happy in life then I’m pleased for you.
Topping you should be aiming your anger at the blair/Brown governments instead of leave voters,those two caused more harm to the remain side than you would think.
How is saying "I'm happy for you" aiming my anger!!! Is there no pleasing some Leavers!?
I hope that's a rhetorical question. You could bring them a winning lottery ticket on the back of a golden elephant and they'd still complain that the elephant was an immigrant.
Where do you suggest he fly from in the UK on Ryanair to Brussels?
In my earlier post I said he should go on the choo choo to Bruxelles
He does.
David Davis has been accused of “wasting tens of thousands of pounds” after demanding use of a private RAF plane for Brexit talks.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
You have to take a moment to appreciate the arrogance of a man who refuses to fly to negotiate Brexit with other European leaders unless he can have his own private plane.
"Britain will have to follow EU rules in their entirety during transition. Gove wants control of CAP and fisheries policy. So if May folds, she'll have a huge cabinet battle on her hands. If she refuses, are trade talks delayed?"
What may or may not be in place during a short transition period is really not the big issue. Only Farage cares .
What happens afterwards is - and the length of the transition.
When the Tim Shipman's book was being serialised last month the allegations were
David Davis has been accused of “wasting tens of thousands of pounds” after demanding use of a private RAF plane for Brexit talks.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
Team David Davis said the story was based on 'gossip not fact'
Today's revelation show David Davis and his team were talking bollocks.
"Britain will have to follow EU rules in their entirety during transition. Gove wants control of CAP and fisheries policy. So if May folds, she'll have a huge cabinet battle on her hands. If she refuses, are trade talks delayed?"
What may or may not be in place during a short transition period is really not the big issue. Only Farage cares .
What happens afterwards is - and the length of the transition.
"Britain will have to follow EU rules in their entirety during transition. Gove wants control of CAP and fisheries policy. So if May folds, she'll have a huge cabinet battle on her hands. If she refuses, are trade talks delayed?"
What may or may not be in place during a short transition period is really not the big issue. Only Farage cares .
What happens afterwards is - and the length of the transition.
Gove seems to care in respect to fisheries.
He may have - does he still now ? I'd hope he'd be patient for 2 years.
"Britain will have to follow EU rules in their entirety during transition. Gove wants control of CAP and fisheries policy. So if May folds, she'll have a huge cabinet battle on her hands. If she refuses, are trade talks delayed?"
What may or may not be in place during a short transition period is really not the big issue. Only Farage cares .
What happens afterwards is - and the length of the transition.
Gove seems to care in respect to fisheries.
He may have - does he still now ? I'd hope he'd be patient for 2 years.
I think it is a long standing issue for him, IIRC his father was a fisherman who business that got damaged by the Common Fisheries Policies.
' Similarly, in 2005 Labour withdrew two proposed posters which were criticised for recycling, whether intentionally or not, anti-Semitic tropes in the way they portrayed Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin. '
Have you considered that the publicity those posters achieved was what was wanted ?
I'm sure some in the Labour party would have been quite happy that members of a certain demographic, traditionally Labour voting but at that time disaffected because of Iraq, were informed that the Conservative leader was Jewish.
It was said before Brexit that there was no one vision of Brexit, no single tribe or party to whom Brexit belongs. And now, no common tribe to blame or to admit blame.
So now we have Leavers split between saying of course it was immigration and That's Not My Brexit. Mr Meeks is spitting in the wind railing at non immigration-led leavers. There is no common vision, so why should any contributer concede one?
Cyclefree correctly identifies that it is the government who ultimately need ownership, both of reconciliation and delivering Brexit. It will be difficult before 2019, I think, the shape of the Brexit deal itself forms a very substantial part of the reconciliation process, as the last few weeks have just begun to show.
Reconciliation will require taking into account the views of the 48% as well as those of the 52%. That must mean the softest of all possible Brexits.
Yet a large majority want an end to unrestricted immigration.
And have three time elected a government commited to reducing net immigration to under 100,000 per year.
On the Barnsley thing. Yes, Barnsley has been a low immigration area, but what it does have is first wave immigration, an immigration that has been predominately from Eastern Europe, from EU free movement.
I think the attitudes shown there, or in NE Derbyshire or in Lincolnshire may actually compare favourably with first large wave immigrations to London 60 years ago, or to Italy 20 years ago, or to Eastern Europe now. Which is not to say they are good, but that there has been at least some account taken of the broader cultural landscape in the UK beyond their own towns or WWC neighbourhoods.
There was an intetesting article on Bloomberg a couple of days ago about Thetford. Over 60 % in favour of Brexit at the referendum. Population of 27,000. Polish population 8,000 and Portuguese population 5,000.
What I found amusing is that some of the Leave vote was found to have come from the Portuguese who arrived a few decades ago but who were unhappy with recent Eastern European migrantion.
It's a rum old world.
That was a good article.
Though the title is misleading as the UK continues to receive net migration from Eastern Europe.
Mr. Pong, you just made an argument that the voting age should determined by intellectual capacity but then refused to back your own argument. I think if someone's too young to have left school they're too young to vote. Indeed, I'd sooner raise the voting age.
Anyway, I must be off. Evil plots don't just make themselves, you know.
"Britain will have to follow EU rules in their entirety during transition. Gove wants control of CAP and fisheries policy. So if May folds, she'll have a huge cabinet battle on her hands. If she refuses, are trade talks delayed?"
What may or may not be in place during a short transition period is really not the big issue. Only Farage cares .
What happens afterwards is - and the length of the transition.
Gove seems to care in respect to fisheries.
He may have - does he still now ? I'd hope he'd be patient for 2 years.
I think it is a long standing issue for him, IIRC his father was a fisherman who business that got damaged by the Common Fisheries Policies.
Well..
'Michael Gove's father denies his company was destroyed by EU policies'
..Ernest Gove told the Guardian that he did believe the industry in Scotland “more or less collapsed down” after the EU became involved in fisheries policy, but he said he sold his firm voluntarily, as a going concern. “It wasn’t any hardship or things like that. I just decided to call it a day and sold up my business and went on to work with someone else,” he said.'
Of course Govey was telling all and sundry that Agfish powers were going to be repatriated to Scotland in the event of Brexit. I'm sure that claim has all the veracity that we have come to expect from him.
It was said before Brexit that there was no one vision of Brexit, no single tribe or party to whom Brexit belongs. And now, no common tribe to blame or to admit blame.
So now we have Leavers split between saying of course it was immigration and That's Not My Brexit. Mr Meeks is spitting in the wind railing at non immigration-led leavers. There is no common vision, so why should any contributer concede one?
Cyclefree correctly identifies that it is the government who ultimately need ownership, both of reconciliation and delivering Brexit. It will be difficult before 2019, I think, the shape of the Brexit deal itself forms a very substantial part of the reconciliation process, as the last few weeks have just begun to show.
Reconciliation will require taking into account the views of the 48% as well as those of the 52%. That must mean the softest of all possible Brexits.
Yet a large majority want an end to unrestricted immigration.
And have three time elected a government commited to reducing net immigration to under 100,000 per year.
So Brexit must include the end of FoM.
My sense is that a soft Brexit will be to the Tories benefit.
Col. Bufton Tufton may be a touch upset at not getting the full 'Empire Experience' but the vast majority of Tory remainers will shrug, accept it could have been far worse and get back behind the party.
Labour on the other hand are going to have real difficulty selling their support for FoM to the disaffected in the marginals. They just better hope the kids are permanently engaged!
Went to Saudi Arabia on official business with BA.
Last night, Downing Street was quick to insist that the views attributed to Hilton were expressed in a personal capacity and pointed out that the prime minister had recently travelled on BA to Saudi Arabia.
Terrific piece, CycleFree. What I think people have not yet worked out is that the narrow Trump agenda , insular and tribal and prejudiced, mirrored by the anti-foreign aspects of Brexit-please note I am not saying all of Brexit is anti-foreign but a slice of it is-- may well not be the future at all but the past!. Could they not be a last gasp of something that is actually disappearing. Hence the inexplicable terror that seems to exist at the core of Brexiteers, and of Trumpism, a fury fuelled by an unconscious but instinctive knowledge they are at the END of a road, not the beginning at it. Note too Murdoch, wrong on so many things but rarely about business, this week talked of his fear of the disruptors. And the disruptors are liberal figures far more powerful even than Murdoch like Jeff Bezos of Amazon who torments Trump in the Washington Post. I am not saying Brexit wont happen, it may well but I would bet the house it wont happen in a way that pleases Brexiteers.
Comments
If I had dragged George Osborne into it.
What, though, is Vagra II?
/TSE
Edited extra bit: ha, I misread your second line, I thought you were asking what Viagra II was. Ahem.
For comparison, after the crash in 2008 the pound dropped 27% against the USD in the next 6mths.
Edit: oh and while the UK has to cede its place at the table to the EU for all international trade and regulatory bodies, Norway has a full seat with voting rights. As i say they have far more control than the UK does.
I rather like the Estonian model, which recognises the loss of privacy resulting form the digital age - and makes something of a virtue of it:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/18/estonia-the-digital-republic
Edit: didn't it drop from $1.50 to $1.28?
the second world war so they had faced much greater threats and terrorism did not seem as serious as it does today in our much more peaceful society.
What I found amusing is that some of the Leave vote was found to have come from the Portuguese who arrived a few decades ago but who were unhappy with recent Eastern European migrantion.
It's a rum old world.
TJ and 17.4 million other people
But the government has from the start got the tone very wrong IMO and this has not served the country well. We would all do well to listen to each other and have a bit of empathy rather than snarl.
If those who voted Leave did so because they felt ignored by the establishment (and I have more sympathy for this than you might assume) why do this in turn to those who are on the losing side now and create yet another cause for resentment?
I do not need to be fair and balanced. I write what I hope will stimulate an interesting discussion for others.
Fringe actors on both sides have come out with vinegar and wind but well that's politics.
I also understand the choo choo also takes him directly to Bruxelles.
For clarity.....
I voted on the winning side of the referendum
He should be flying on Ryanair, Easyjet, or go on the train
we'll end up with more or less the type of arrangement Id like to see
Worth putting in context though: two years before the vote the pound was at 1.70, and a year at 1.55.
He's not solely going to Bruxelles.
This amendment will remove that requirement to leave on that specified time and date, and the government is expected to support that amendment (because if they didn't, they'd lose the vote)
Can I just point out how ridiculous it is that 17y/o’s are prevented from voting.
While I profoundly disagree with that argument - if someone is intellectually capable of making the Yugoslavia comparison, they should be able to vote. Whether you’re 17 (or even younger) or 77. You pass the test.
No?
I find it difficult to see how any reasonable observer could consider DD's need for quick, reliable and discreet transport to regular meeting as anything other than a basic requirement.
You could well imagine the hysterical reaction if private briefings between DD and his staff en-route to Brussels via RYR were posted on social media.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-brexit-negotiations-private-raf-plane-demand-brussels-talks-european-union-eu-capitals-a8064656.html
It departs from London St Pancras these days.
To quote a fan site:
"A race of "titans" brought out from within themselves all evil and negative attributes that had bound them to destructiveness. The unwanted substance spread and coalesced into a dank and vile second skin. The race rejected this "skin of evil" and abandoned it on the barren planet Vagra II in the Zed Lapis sector."
The story first emerged in Tim Shipman's book, David Davis denied it, now the evidence from an FOI is that David Davis has been caught telling porkies.
The cost of the travel has to be cost effective.
'Government Minister involved in international negotiations flies on government plane' isn't going to swing many votes.....
What may or may not be in place during a short transition period is really not the big issue. Only Farage cares .
What happens afterwards is - and the length of the transition.
David Davis has been accused of “wasting tens of thousands of pounds” after demanding use of a private RAF plane for Brexit talks.
The Brexit Secretary has declined to take commercial flights to carry out his intensive negotiations in both Brussels and various European capitals, it has emerged.
No 10 gave the go-ahead to the use of private planes after Mr Davis threatened not to undertake the trips otherwise, a new political book claims.
Team David Davis said the story was based on 'gossip not fact'
Today's revelation show David Davis and his team were talking bollocks.
You seem to be confused by 'cost' and 'cost-effective'.
I do hope your employment doesn't rely too heavily on, you know, reading stuff.
Where has David Davis 'told porkies' unquote?
That’s never going to happen though, obviously.
i’ll settle for lowering the voting age to 16.
https://twitter.com/dpatrikarakos/status/941696003312377857
Have you considered that the publicity those posters achieved was what was wanted ?
I'm sure some in the Labour party would have been quite happy that members of a certain demographic, traditionally Labour voting but at that time disaffected because of Iraq, were informed that the Conservative leader was Jewish.
And again...you seem to be confused by 'cost' and 'cost-effective'.
And have three time elected a government commited to reducing net immigration to under 100,000 per year.
So Brexit must include the end of FoM.
Though the title is misleading as the UK continues to receive net migration from Eastern Europe.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-12-13/this-english-town-backed-brexit-now-the-poles-are-leaving
Anyway, I must be off. Evil plots don't just make themselves, you know.
Mwahahaha!
If David Cameron as Prime Minister could and did fly regularly commercial, then David Davis can manage it as well.
'Michael Gove's father denies his company was destroyed by EU policies'
..Ernest Gove told the Guardian that he did believe the industry in Scotland “more or less collapsed down” after the EU became involved in fisheries policy, but he said he sold his firm voluntarily, as a going concern. “It wasn’t any hardship or things like that. I just decided to call it a day and sold up my business and went on to work with someone else,” he said.'
https://tinyurl.com/jjlthwq
Of course Govey was telling all and sundry that Agfish powers were going to be repatriated to Scotland in the event of Brexit. I'm sure that claim has all the veracity that we have come to expect from him.
My sense is that a soft Brexit will be to the Tories benefit.
Col. Bufton Tufton may be a touch upset at not getting the full 'Empire Experience' but the vast majority of Tory remainers will shrug, accept it could have been far worse and get back behind the party.
Labour on the other hand are going to have real difficulty selling their support for FoM to the disaffected in the marginals. They just better hope the kids are permanently engaged!
Is it still used by the government or reallocated ?
"CALDER WORLD OF TRAVEL 27,331.88 13/06/2017 DEXU Departmental all staff conference event "
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/668209/DExEU_spend_over__25k_-_April-Oct_2017.csv/preview
I preferred the name when it was first ordered, Blair Force One.
What is it now? Some variant of: May the Force...?
Cameron's flights on royal squadron or chartered planes normally cost £6700 per flying hour
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36719529
For example, went to Canada on Virgin for a G20 meeting.
David Cameron flew into the G20 Summit with Virgin Atlantic
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2010/06/david-cameron-flew-into-the-g20-summit-with-virgin-atlantic-not-ba.html
Went to Saudi Arabia on official business with BA.
Last night, Downing Street was quick to insist that the views attributed to Hilton were expressed in a personal capacity and pointed out that the prime minister had recently travelled on BA to Saudi Arabia.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/feb/18/cameron-guru-gove-virgin-ba
NEW THREAD