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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Three Tribes Go To War – the historical divides within the Tor

SystemSystem Posts: 6,199
edited December 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Three Tribes Go To War – the historical divides within the Tory Party

“I support this measure as a measure of reform; but I support it still more as a measure of conservation … the voice of great events is proclaiming to us, “Reform, that you may preserve”

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Superb. Many thanks Charles.
  • I so agree about the prediction on David Davis.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,364

    Superb. Many thanks Charles.

    +1. Exactly. Trouble is, the party has slipped from it’s traditioanl blance. The top is spinning off centre!
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 3,197
    First rate analysis and a total vindication of: my prediction that TSE will never be a Conservative.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,680
    edited December 2017
    A FREE Britain! A CONSERVATIVE Britain!

    новосунильск, россия

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,880
    edited December 2017
    "while the Whigs saw the requirements of membership as incompatible with their duties to the people as a whole"

    And they were utterly and profoundly wrong. Brexit was a betrayal of their people, albeit in some cases with good intentions.
  • An elegantly written piece. I particularly liked the last sentence of the penultimate paragraph, which neatly expresses a point I have made here many times, but never as well.
  • Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.
  • FPT: Mr. Eagles, still not as bad as when a Briton accusing the Saudis of torturing him was being interviewed outside court and they cut away for a live shot of the England football team bus rolling up to a hotel in Germany. Top priorities there.

    On-topic: interesting take on the history and current state of the Conservatives. The Big Society was actually a very good idea which sadly didn't fly.
  • I think I’m a Paternalistic Radical Tory.

    Or Thatcher as she governed with a dash of Cameron.
  • JohnO said:

    First rate analysis and a total vindication of: my prediction that TSE will never be a Conservative.

    Heh.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, still not as bad as when a Briton accusing the Saudis of torturing him was being interviewed outside court and they cut away for a live shot of the England football team bus rolling up to a hotel in Germany. Top priorities there.

    On-topic: interesting take on the history and current state of the Conservatives. The Big Society was actually a very good idea which sadly didn't fly.

    http://www.thefore.org/
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,312

    Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820

    I think I’m a Paternalistic Radical Tory.

    Or Thatcher as she governed with a dash of Cameron.

    PeRT?
  • Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
  • Mr. Eagles, ah, but which Roman Emperor would you be?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,680
    edited December 2017

    I think I’m a Paternalistic Radical Tory.

    Or Thatcher as she governed with a dash of Cameron.

    PRaT?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,736
    edited December 2017
    Interesting article Charles. The Tories have indeed always been willing to undertake pragmatic change but only if absolutely necessary.

    However nothing in this article at all contradicts my premise that the Tories have always been the party of constitutional (not absolute) monarchy and the Union. Indeed on the Union the Tories have always defended it and will do so up and until any part of it breaks away, if ever. As for Carson never forget his famous phrase 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'

    I would also certainly not rule out Rees-Mogg as a future leader of the opposition, it would be a mistake to say the Ultras have never produced Tory leaders before as the likes of Bonar Law and IDS and Wellington would attest.

    Radicals like Osborne and TSE could be equally at home in the Orange Book LDs along with the likes of Laws as the Tories, although even most of them tend to be monarchists and unionists. David Davis is not really a Radical, Gove would be more in that mould.

    It is true to say that One Nation leaders e.g. Macmillan, Heath, Major and Cameron have produced most modern Tory election winners and probably comprise the bulk of Tory voters. With the phase 1 deal done May is likely to stay on post transition until 2021 leading to a contest between a Remainer, I still think Rudd more likely than Hunt in the One Nation tradition and a Leaver either in the One Nation tradition like Davis or Boris or the Radical tradition like Gove. If and when the Tories then lose power the way will be open for an Ultra like Mogg.
  • This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.
  • Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

  • Tories in pursuit of social stability - i.e. do just enough to stop the rest of us from stringing 'our betters' up from the nearest lamppost.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,659

    Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.
    vassal status will presumably not hold much appeal for anyone if the transition deal leaves space for it to be convincingly dressed up as such
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,346

    Superb. Many thanks Charles.

    +1 Great article Charles.
  • Everything accommodates to the reality of life in the end: individuals; countries; economic or philosophical theories; political movements and parties. Though projecting what that reality will be isn't always easy. People respond to incentives - but those incentives aren't always economic. Nice piece Charles.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,003
    "the only policy of a Conservative Government is to pause for thought” .....
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,312

    Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

    I think that's right. The whole Brexit process came about because successive Tory leaders have put party first but last week's vote suggests that some MPs may now be willing to call a halt. At some point the ultras will have to face the fact that May will take the UK out of the EU in name only and they will have to decide whether to accept that or try to topple her.
  • Charles said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg will never lead the Conservative Party.
    David Davis will never lead the Conservative Party.
    if the decision is in 2020 it will be Hunt; if it is after 2022 it will skip to the next generation.

    +1

    While Thatcher had radical rhetoric and well understood the value of salami slicing (as does the EU) - and was also the first 'environmentalist' PM, grasping the threat of global warming as a scientist would - despite the sharp edges she was a One Nation Conservative.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting article Charles. The Tories have indeed always been willing to undertake pragmatic change but only if absolutely necessary.

    However nothing in this article at all contradicts my premise that the Tories have always been the party of constitutional (not absolute) monarchy and the Union. Indeed on the Union the Tories have always defended it and will do so up and until any part of it breaks away, if ever. As for Carson never forget his famous phrase 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'

    I would also certainly not rule out Rees-Mogg as a future leader of the opposition, it would be a mistake to say the Ultras have never produced Tory leaders before as the likes of Bonar Law and IDS and Wellington would attest.

    Radicals like Osborne and TSE could be equally at home in the Orange Book LDs along with the likes of Laws as the Tories, although even most of them tend to be monarchists and unionists. David Davis is not really a Radical, Gove would be more in that mould.

    It is true to say that One Nation leaders e.g. Macmillan, Heath, Major and Cameron have produced most modern Tory election winners and probably comprise the bulk of Tory voters. With the phase 1 deal done May is likely to stay on post transition until 2021 leading to a contest between a Remainer, I still think Rudd more likely than Hunt in the One Nation tradition and a Leaver either in the One Nation tradition like Davis or Boris or the Radical tradition like Gove. If and when the Tories then lose power the way will be open for an Ultra like Mogg.

    "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right" was Randolph Churchill, not Carson. Carson was a far more sophisticated man than Churchill - and hated the dismemberment of his beloved homeland. For him Ulster was just a tool to try and prevent the dissolution of the Union - but he was then betrayed by James Craig.

    Wellington was not an Ultra (he pushed Catholic Emancipation through Parliament) and nor was Bonar Law - he was a bridge between Walter Long and the protectionists and Austen Chamberlain. IDS is more of a Radical than anything else: just look at his reforms to the welfare state.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820

    Tories in pursuit of social stability - i.e. do just enough to stop the rest of us from stringing 'our betters' up from the nearest lamppost.

    Sssshh. You're not supposed to notice :wink:
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,309

    Charles said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg will never lead the Conservative Party.
    David Davis will never lead the Conservative Party.
    if the decision is in 2020 it will be Hunt; if it is after 2022 it will skip to the next generation.

    +1

    While Thatcher had radical rhetoric and well understood the value of salami slicing (as does the EU) - and was also the first 'environmentalist' PM, grasping the threat of global warming as a scientist would - despite the sharp edges she was a One Nation Conservative.
    This would be excellent for my book - indeed it would undo the Trump losses.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,659

    Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
    "Malcontent" doesn't go anywhere near describing BJ - leaving aside any party issues, as a human being he's a prat of the first order. He fucked up as Mayor and has gone downhill since then.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820
    edited December 2017
    .
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,266
    Charles said:

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, still not as bad as when a Briton accusing the Saudis of torturing him was being interviewed outside court and they cut away for a live shot of the England football team bus rolling up to a hotel in Germany. Top priorities there.

    On-topic: interesting take on the history and current state of the Conservatives. The Big Society was actually a very good idea which sadly didn't fly.

    http://www.thefore.org/
    Jesus, that's a terrible website, design-wise.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,309

    Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
    "Malcontent" doesn't go anywhere near describing BJ - leaving aside any party issues, as a human being he's a prat of the first order. He fucked up as Mayor and has gone downhill since then.
    I wonder how popular Boris is in London these days.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820

    Charles said:

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, still not as bad as when a Briton accusing the Saudis of torturing him was being interviewed outside court and they cut away for a live shot of the England football team bus rolling up to a hotel in Germany. Top priorities there.

    On-topic: interesting take on the history and current state of the Conservatives. The Big Society was actually a very good idea which sadly didn't fly.

    http://www.thefore.org/
    Jesus, that's a terrible website, design-wise.
    Talk to Fitch - they did it for us pro bono...

    www.wpp.com/wpp/companies/fitch/
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,346
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/18/death-threats-brexit-media-rational-debate-crisis-confrontation Dominic Grieve MP blames vitriol of the pro Brexit media.Shame when a thoughtful person is subjected to such rancorous comment .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,736
    edited December 2017

    Charles said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg will never lead the Conservative Party.
    David Davis will never lead the Conservative Party.
    if the decision is in 2020 it will be Hunt; if it is after 2022 it will skip to the next generation.

    +1

    While Thatcher had radical rhetoric and well understood the value of salami slicing (as does the EU) - and was also the first 'environmentalist' PM, grasping the threat of global warming as a scientist would - despite the sharp edges she was a One Nation Conservative.
    Thatcher was a Radical with One Nation elements in power, moving more towards an Ultra out of power
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,659
    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
    "Malcontent" doesn't go anywhere near describing BJ - leaving aside any party issues, as a human being he's a prat of the first order. He fucked up as Mayor and has gone downhill since then.
    I wonder how popular Boris is in London these days.
    I'm a Londoner and I would guess, only guess mind, that his support moves ever rightwards, so diminishing, particularly in London.
  • This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    Matthew Parris wrote an interesting piece some weeks ago touching on this. It was about JRM, his chances of becoming leader, and Parris was arguing, IIRC, that JRM leadership could lead to the end of the Tories as a board church. I think this is happening with both political parties, and it’s one of the reasons why we are seeing such political polarisation atm.


    FPT:

  • Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
    "Malcontent" doesn't go anywhere near describing BJ - leaving aside any party issues, as a human being he's a prat of the first order. He fucked up as Mayor and has gone downhill since then.
    +1.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820

    This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    Matthew Parris wrote an interesting piece some weeks ago touching on this. It was about JRM, his chances of becoming leader, and Parris was arguing, IIRC, that JRM leadership could lead to the end of the Tories as a board church. I think this is happening with both political parties, and it’s one of the reasons why we are seeing such political polarisation atm.


    FPT:

    I guess Jess Phillips is less concerned about today's decision not to investigate the Labour sexual harassment case - a decision taken without speaking to the accuser or to the witness?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,736
    edited December 2017
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting article Charles. The Tories have indeed always been willing to undertake pragmatic change but only if absolutely necessary.

    However nothing in this article at all contradicts my premise that the Tories have always been the party of constitutional (not absolute) monarchy and the Union. Indeed on the Union the Tories have always defended it and will do so up and until any part of it breaks away, if ever. As for Carson never forget his famous phrase 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'

    I would also certainly not rule out Rees-Mogg as a future leader of the opposition, it would be a mistake to say the Ultras have never produced Tory leaders before as the likes of Bonar Law and IDS and Wellington would attest.

    Radicals like Osborne and TSE could be equally at home in the Orange Book LDs along with the likes of Laws as the Tories, although even most of them tend to be monarchists and unionists. David Davis is not really a Radical, Gove would be more in that mould.

    It is true to say that One Nation leaders e.g. Macmillan, Heath, Major and Cameron have produced most modern Tory election winners and probably comprise the bulk of Tory voters. With the phase 1 deal done May is likely to stay on post transition until 2021 leading to a contest between a Remainer, I still think Rudd more likely than Hunt in the One Nation tradition and a Leaver either in the One Nation tradition like Davis or Boris or the Radical tradition like Gove. If and when the Tories then lose power the way will be open for an Ultra like Mogg.

    "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right" was Randolph Churchill, not Carson. Carson was a far more sophisticated man than Churchill - and hated the dismemberment of his beloved homeland. For him Ulster was just a tool to try and prevent the dissolution of the Union - but he was then betrayed by James Craig.

    Wellington was not an Ultra (he pushed Catholic Emancipation through Parliament) and nor was Bonar Law - he was a bridge between Walter Long and the protectionists and Austen Chamberlain. IDS is more of a Radical than anything else: just look at his reforms to the welfare state.
    Apologies, it was Churchill but Carson did certainly organise the 'Solemn League and Covenant' of half a million to use all means necessary to resist Home Rule.

    Wellington opposed the Great Reform Act of 1832 and the expansion of the franchise which would suggest he was an Ultra. Bonar Law backed tariffs and an imperial customs union and opposed Irish Home Rule. IDS imposed a 3 line whip opposing gay adoption as leader and is a hard Brexiteer.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,273
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg will never lead the Conservative Party.
    David Davis will never lead the Conservative Party.
    if the decision is in 2020 it will be Hunt; if it is after 2022 it will skip to the next generation.

    +1

    While Thatcher had radical rhetoric and well understood the value of salami slicing (as does the EU) - and was also the first 'environmentalist' PM, grasping the threat of global warming as a scientist would - despite the sharp edges she was a One Nation Conservative.
    Thatcher was a Radical with One Nation elements in power, moving more towards an Ultra out of power
    In a documentary (I think it might have been one with Portillo from 2008) I remember Ken Clarke saying that Thatcher was quite pragmatic in cabinet for most of her time in office, except towards the end. I’ll try and find it, as it may be of interest to some on here.

    @Charles Jess Philips hasn’t commented on it yet from what I’ve seen, although she has previously made statements of support for those who have made accusations regarding sexual harrasment in Labour.
  • Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

    When the alternative is Corbyn, there is no conflict. Of course it's always country before party, but at the moment the two are exactly the same.
  • FPT:

    THE broadcasting watchdog has launched an investigation into Alex Salmond’s TV show.

    Ofcom is examining whether the former First Minister’s debut show on a Kremlin propaganda channel breached guidelines on accuracy and “materially misled” viewers.

    The November 16 episode of the Alex Salmond Show on RT proved controversial because of a series of “tweets” Mr Salmond read out on air.

    Mr Salmond claimed there had been an “avalanche” of messages from the public.

    However one tweet was attributed to an account that had never posted, another to an account that had yet to post the tweet, and one was from the show’s series director


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15779190.Watchdog_launches_probe_into_Salmond_TV_show/?ref=twtrec
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,130

    This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    There are only 11 ultras in the party. The rest of the party is aligned. If they left the party and reformed as the SDP no one would be surprised. They are in the wrong party.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,003

    Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
    "Malcontent" doesn't go anywhere near describing BJ - leaving aside any party issues, as a human being he's a prat of the first order. He fucked up as Mayor and has gone downhill since then.
    +1.
    +2
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,130

    Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

    When the alternative is Corbyn, there is no conflict. Of course it's always country before party, but at the moment the two are exactly the same.
    Yes, I was about to say the same, with Corbyn as the alternative, supporting the party and nation is the one and the same. The treachery of the 11 is truly complete. Hopefully we can purge them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,736

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg will never lead the Conservative Party.
    David Davis will never lead the Conservative Party.
    if the decision is in 2020 it will be Hunt; if it is after 2022 it will skip to the next generation.

    +1

    While Thatcher had radical rhetoric and well understood the value of salami slicing (as does the EU) - and was also the first 'environmentalist' PM, grasping the threat of global warming as a scientist would - despite the sharp edges she was a One Nation Conservative.
    Thatcher was a Radical with One Nation elements in power, moving more towards an Ultra out of power
    In a documentary (I think it might have been one with Portillo from 2008) I remember Ken Clarke saying that Thatcher was quite pragmatic in cabinet for most of her time in office, except towards the end. I’ll try and find it, as it may be of interest to some on here.

    @Charles Jess Philips hasn’t commented on it yet from what I’ve seen, although she has previously made statements of support for those who have made accusations regarding sexual harrasment in Labour.
    Yes as PM she was more pragmatic than when she left office
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,214

    THE broadcasting watchdog has launched an investigation into Alex Salmond’s TV show.

    That's funnier than all of the "jokes" in his Fringe show combined :smile:
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,214

    At some point the ultras will have to face the fact that May will take the UK out of the EU in name only and they will have to decide whether to accept that or try to topple her.

  • Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

    When the alternative is Corbyn, there is no conflict. Of course it's always country before party, but at the moment the two are exactly the same.

    The alternative is not Corbyn. It is what we have now. Corbyn will never win a Parliamentary majority.
  • Mr. Eagles, ah, but which Roman Emperor would you be?

    Augustus, Caligula, or Constantine the Great.
  • MaxPB said:

    Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

    When the alternative is Corbyn, there is no conflict. Of course it's always country before party, but at the moment the two are exactly the same.
    Yes, I was about to say the same, with Corbyn as the alternative, supporting the party and nation is the one and the same. The treachery of the 11 is truly complete. Hopefully we can purge them.

    Blue Momentum.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,003

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
    "Malcontent" doesn't go anywhere near describing BJ - leaving aside any party issues, as a human being he's a prat of the first order. He fucked up as Mayor and has gone downhill since then.
    I wonder how popular Boris is in London these days.
    I'm a Londoner and I would guess, only guess mind, that his support moves ever rightwards, so diminishing, particularly in London.
    Boris only won the second time because he was up against a clearly past-it Ken Livingstone. It was the only time in my life that I have voted for a Tory as second choice. But he was a terrible Mayor, treating the idea of being held to account through scrutiny and questions with contempt or an excuse to lark about, and filling London with expensive schemes that allowed him to grandstand whilst showing little interest in the hard graft of improving London's housing, services or environment.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,880
    MaxPB said:

    This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    There are only 11 ultras in the party. The rest of the party is aligned. If they left the party and reformed as the SDP no one would be surprised. They are in the wrong party.
    Are the non-ultras united around Canada or Norway?
  • Scott_P said:

    At some point the ultras will have to face the fact that May will take the UK out of the EU in name only and they will have to decide whether to accept that or try to topple her.

    Load of codswallop. Which of Schengen, Euro, Charter, Social Chapter (not sure what the "deal" is) etc pre-existed before we joined? That was crap the EU insisted on doing after we joined not beforehand.

    Were we able to get the CAP fixed or anything else?
    - Non.
  • In this thread: People describing anyone with a different opinion as "ultras".
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,346

    Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

    When the alternative is Corbyn, there is no conflict. Of course it's always country before party, but at the moment the two are exactly the same.

    The alternative is not Corbyn. It is what we have now. Corbyn will never win a Parliamentary majority.
    In all due respect you were way of the mark on how Labour would do in the June 17 General Election.



  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:



    "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right" was Randolph Churchill, not Carson. Carson was a far more sophisticated man than Churchill - and hated the dismemberment of his beloved homeland. For him Ulster was just a tool to try and prevent the dissolution of the Union - but he was then betrayed by James Craig.

    Wellington was not an Ultra (he pushed Catholic Emancipation through Parliament) and nor was Bonar Law - he was a bridge between Walter Long and the protectionists and Austen Chamberlain. IDS is more of a Radical than anything else: just look at his reforms to the welfare state.

    Apologies, it was Churchill but Carson did certainly organise the 'Solemn League and Covenant' of half a million to use all means necessary to resist Home Rule.

    Wellington opposed the Great Reform Act of 1832 and the expansion of the franchise which would suggest he was an Ultra. IDS voted against gay marriage and withdrew the whip from those who supported gay adoption and is a hard Brexiteer.
    For what it's worth, I wrote my thesis on Carson... The Covenant was simply political theatre in the tradition of the Ulstermen. As with Larne and Curragh, Carson never intended the UVF to actually fight (he was a former Solicitor General, Cabinet member, lawyer, politician and a member of one of the most prominent Ascendancy families). If he had really taken "the high road to treason and despair" do you think he would have been given a UK state funeral?

    As for Wellington:

    the Ultra-Tories were united in their antipathy towards the Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel for what they saw as a betrayal of Tory political and religious principle on the issue of Catholic Emancipation

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-Tories
  • In this thread: People describing anyone with a different opinion as "ultras".

    Ultra-Tories does have historical provenance my little snowflake.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-Tories
  • MaxPB said:

    Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

    When the alternative is Corbyn, there is no conflict. Of course it's always country before party, but at the moment the two are exactly the same.
    Yes, I was about to say the same, with Corbyn as the alternative, supporting the party and nation is the one and the same. The treachery of the 11 is truly complete. Hopefully we can purge them.

    Blue Momentum.

    I mentioned the uncanny similarities some on the Tory Right/Brexiteers are starting to have with momentum shortly after that vote. It’s been rather something to witness right wing newspapers demonise and intimidate opponents with front pages such as the Mail’s last week, the Telegraph’s recently, and the ‘Crush Sabouteurs’ one during the election, as well as the ‘Enemies of the People’ one too. Patricuarly given how the right have often criticised the left for demonising their opponents and have proclaimed their own belief in ‘diversity of thought.’
  • In this thread: People describing anyone with a different opinion as "ultras".

    Can't we call them 'casuals' instead? They could all get a Pringle jumper for Christmas.

    They could even have their own 'firms':

    CBC - Conservative Brexit Casuals
    LRC - Liberal Remain Casuals

    Sorry, I think I'm losing it...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,130

    MaxPB said:

    This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    There are only 11 ultras in the party. The rest of the party is aligned. If they left the party and reformed as the SDP no one would be surprised. They are in the wrong party.
    Are the non-ultras united around Canada or Norway?
    United around leaving, as Alastair pointed out. After that it doesn't really matter since the Tories have always been a broad church of ideas on domestic issues. There just isn't room for dissent on an issue where Parliament has delegated sovereignty to the public and he public has given an answer.

    The fact that there are only 11 traitors willing to sell out their nation and party to the EU is actually something to celebrate. It shows how dedicated the rest of the party is to democratic values, even though many have previously disagreed with leave, they have put the public view above their own. The 11 traitors have not been able to do that and should be purged for that reason. Not that you support democratic values, of course.
  • MaxPB said:

    Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

    When the alternative is Corbyn, there is no conflict. Of course it's always country before party, but at the moment the two are exactly the same.
    Yes, I was about to say the same, with Corbyn as the alternative, supporting the party and nation is the one and the same. The treachery of the 11 is truly complete. Hopefully we can purge them.
    What is classed as Tory treachery these days days? Is it disagreeing with Theresa or disagreeing with Rees-Mogg?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,003
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    There are only 11 ultras in the party. The rest of the party is aligned. If they left the party and reformed as the SDP no one would be surprised. They are in the wrong party.
    Are the non-ultras united around Canada or Norway?
    United around leaving, as Alastair pointed out. After that it doesn't really matter since the Tories have always been a broad church of ideas on domestic issues. There just isn't room for dissent on an issue where Parliament has delegated sovereignty to the public and he public has given an answer.

    The fact that there are only 11 traitors willing to sell out their nation and party to the EU is actually something to celebrate. It shows how dedicated the rest of the party is to democratic values, even though many have previously disagreed with leave, they have put the public view above their own. The 11 traitors have not been able to do that and should be purged for that reason. Not that you support democratic values, of course.
    If the Tories are foolish enough to purge their moderate wing, they'll never see a majority again.
  • Blue Momentum.

    Yup, I keep on saying Brexiteers and Corbynistas are two cheeks of the same arse.

    I see Momentum types coming out with anti-Semitic bullshit about the Jews of Goldman Sachs and N M Rothschild & Sons Limited then we get this today...

  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,346
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg will never lead the Conservative Party.
    David Davis will never lead the Conservative Party.
    if the decision is in 2020 it will be Hunt; if it is after 2022 it will skip to the next generation.

    +1

    While Thatcher had radical rhetoric and well understood the value of salami slicing (as does the EU) - and was also the first 'environmentalist' PM, grasping the threat of global warming as a scientist would - despite the sharp edges she was a One Nation Conservative.
    Thatcher was a Radical with One Nation elements in power, moving more towards an Ultra out of power
    In a documentary (I think it might have been one with Portillo from 2008) I remember Ken Clarke saying that Thatcher was quite pragmatic in cabinet for most of her time in office, except towards the end. I’ll try and find it, as it may be of interest to some on here.

    @Charles Jess Philips hasn’t commented on it yet from what I’ve seen, although she has previously made statements of support for those who have made accusations regarding sexual harrasment in Labour.
    Yes as PM she was more pragmatic than when she left office
    True .The Conservative party under Haque IDS and Howard seemed to lose all its Social reformism just became obsessed with Europe.Its argument against the minimum wage for many was a metaphor for what it thought about the low paid.
  • MaxPB said:

    Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

    When the alternative is Corbyn, there is no conflict. Of course it's always country before party, but at the moment the two are exactly the same.
    Yes, I was about to say the same, with Corbyn as the alternative, supporting the party and nation is the one and the same. The treachery of the 11 is truly complete. Hopefully we can purge them.

    Blue Momentum.

    I mentioned the uncanny similarities some on the Tory Right/Brexiteers are starting to have with momentum shortly after that vote. It’s been rather something to witness right wing newspapers demonise and intimidate opponents with front pages such as the Mail’s last week, the Telegraph’s recently, and the ‘Crush Sabouteurs’ one during the election, as well as the ‘Enemies of the People’ one too. Patricuarly given how the right have often criticised the left for demonising their opponents and have proclaimed their own belief in ‘diversity of thought.’

    Yep - seeing Dominic Grieve being accused of treachery is quite something. And not one of the Tories on here has demurred; just as so many moderates in Labour have stayed silent in the face of the far left's rise. The language is extraordinarily violent - especially when you remember what happened to Jo Cox. It's becoming clearer that the radical right resembles the radical left in many, many ways.

  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,273
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg will never lead the Conservative Party.
    David Davis will never lead the Conservative Party.
    if the decision is in 2020 it will be Hunt; if it is after 2022 it will skip to the next generation.

    +1

    While Thatcher had radical rhetoric and well understood the value of salami slicing (as does the EU) - and was also the first 'environmentalist' PM, grasping the threat of global warming as a scientist would - despite the sharp edges she was a One Nation Conservative.
    Thatcher was a Radical with One Nation elements in power, moving more towards an Ultra out of power
    In a documentary (I think it might have been one with Portillo from 2008) I remember Ken Clarke saying that Thatcher was quite pragmatic in cabinet for most of her time in office, except towards the end. I’ll try and find it, as it may be of interest to some on here.

    @Charles Jess Philips hasn’t commented on it yet from what I’ve seen, although she has previously made statements of support for those who have made accusations regarding sexual harrasment in Labour.
    Yes as PM she was more pragmatic than when she left office
    Here it is: from 20: 38
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,130
    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    There are only 11 ultras in the party. The rest of the party is aligned. If they left the party and reformed as the SDP no one would be surprised. They are in the wrong party.
    Are the non-ultras united around Canada or Norway?
    United around leaving, as Alastair pointed out. After that it doesn't really matter since the Tories have always been a broad church of ideas on domestic issues. There just isn't room for dissent on an issue where Parliament has delegated sovereignty to the public and he public has given an answer.

    The fact that there are only 11 traitors willing to sell out their nation and party to the EU is actually something to celebrate. It shows how dedicated the rest of the party is to democratic values, even though many have previously disagreed with leave, they have put the public view above their own. The 11 traitors have not been able to do that and should be purged for that reason. Not that you support democratic values, of course.
    If the Tories are foolish enough to purge their moderate wing, they'll never see a majority again.
    The 11 aren't the moderate wing. They are ultra-EUphiles who want to override the vote and take the UK into the USE.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,880

    Blue Momentum.

    Yup, I keep on saying Brexiteers and Corbynistas are two cheeks of the same arse.

    I see Momentum types coming out with anti-Semitic bullshit about the Jews of Goldman Sachs and N M Rothschild & Sons Limited then we get this today...

    Amongst the Jewish conspiracy stuff this morning he’s been retweeting Daniel Hannan and James Cleverly...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,313
    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    There are only 11 ultras in the party. The rest of the party is aligned. If they left the party and reformed as the SDP no one would be surprised. They are in the wrong party.
    Are the non-ultras united around Canada or Norway?
    United around leaving, as Alastair pointed out. After that it doesn't really matter since the Tories have always been a broad church of ideas on domestic issues. There just isn't room for dissent on an issue where Parliament has delegated sovereignty to the public and he public has given an answer.

    The fact that there are only 11 traitors willing to sell out their nation and party to the EU is actually something to celebrate. It shows how dedicated the rest of the party is to democratic values, even though many have previously disagreed with leave, they have put the public view above their own. The 11 traitors have not been able to do that and should be purged for that reason. Not that you support democratic values, of course.
    If the Tories are foolish enough to purge their moderate wing, they'll never see a majority again.
    Agree. Wish they'd get a move on and do it instead of merely talking about it.
    Afree all there is no room for dissent in pursuit of democracy.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,279
    Thanks Charles - very thought provoking. I fear (well, perhaps hope) that you are being a bit too optimistic about the factional split of the party though.

    My reading would be that the membership is increasingly Ultra, to use your term: fearful of change, seeking to turn the clock back to a time of fewer foreigners living in our country and telling us what do. They reject the radical free trade agenda but go further than the pragmatic one nation position of wishing to preserve stability, and want to undo what they see as negative changes at any cost. A one nation Tory is one who will die in a ditch to defend the continuation of a status quo whose introduction they previously opposed.

    On the other hand the party was hijacked by the radicals for the last parliament and while Cameron never really have any sign of any convictions about anything, his theoretical one-nationness was overwhelmed by his willingness to appoint a load of radicals to key roles and to allow them to pursue ideologically-driven change agendas. I’m not making a point about whether those agendas were bad or good, but the focus on globalisation and marketisation combined with destructive cuts to the social fabric helped to give the Ultras more to react against.

    Funnily enough, within your definitions I think May is a proper One Nationer and her weakness against both factions suggests this group is smaller/less powerful than it has been. I’m not sure it is split as you argue, it looks more like it just contains fewer people than it used.

    Although I’m betting Hunt will be the next leader so I want to agree with your logic, I’d have him firmly in the radical camp given his approach to the NHS etc and globalising views more generally - am I being unfair to him?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,210
    the pragmatic one nation position of wishing to preserve stability...

    There is that, but arguably the strain of pragmatism is also present in the other two sections - indeed the line between pragmatists and non-pragmatists is perhaps a separate division in the party.
  • MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    There are only 11 ultras in the party. The rest of the party is aligned. If they left the party and reformed as the SDP no one would be surprised. They are in the wrong party.
    Are the non-ultras united around Canada or Norway?
    United around leaving, as Alastair pointed out. After that it doesn't really matter since the Tories have always been a broad church of ideas on domestic issues. There just isn't room for dissent on an issue where Parliament has delegated sovereignty to the public and he public has given an answer.

    The fact that there are only 11 traitors willing to sell out their nation and party to the EU is actually something to celebrate. It shows how dedicated the rest of the party is to democratic values, even though many have previously disagreed with leave, they have put the public view above their own. The 11 traitors have not been able to do that and should be purged for that reason. Not that you support democratic values, of course.
    If the Tories are foolish enough to purge their moderate wing, they'll never see a majority again.
    The 11 aren't the moderate wing. They are ultra-EUphiles who want to override the vote and take the UK into the USE.

    Of course they are :-D

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,736
    edited December 2017
    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    There are only 11 ultras in the party. The rest of the party is aligned. If they left the party and reformed as the SDP no one would be surprised. They are in the wrong party.
    Are the non-ultras united around Canada or Norway?
    United around leaving, as Alastair pointed out. After that it doesn't really matter since the Tories have always been a broad church of ideas on domestic issues. There just isn't room for dissent on an issue where Parliament has delegated sovereignty to the public and he public has given an answer.

    The fact that there are only 11 traitors willing to sell out their nation and party to the EU is actually something to celebrate. It shows how dedicated the rest of the party is to democratic values, even though many have previously disagreed with leave, they have put the public view above their own. The 11 traitors have not been able to do that and should be purged for that reason. Not that you support democratic values, of course.
    If the Tories are foolish enough to purge their moderate wing, they'll never see a majority again.
    Labour already have a head start on purging their moderate wing with Momentum councillor deselections moving onto MPs next summer so I would not be certain of that
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,003
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    This piece is a perfect historical summary of the Conservative party that existed up to the beginning of 2016.

    Now, all has been subordinated to Brexit. The Ultras demand radical change, the radicals have abandoned Britain's global role and the One Nation Conservatives are upending social stability.

    For now Brexit gives them a common purpose. But what next? By allowing themselves to be taken over by the fruitcake and loony wings of UKIP, they have abandoned their own broad church.

    There are only 11 ultras in the party. The rest of the party is aligned. If they left the party and reformed as the SDP no one would be surprised. They are in the wrong party.
    Are the non-ultras united around Canada or Norway?
    United around leaving, as Alastair pointed out. After that it doesn't really matter since the Tories have always been a broad church of ideas on domestic issues. There just isn't room for dissent on an issue where Parliament has delegated sovereignty to the public and he public has given an answer.

    The fact that there are only 11 traitors willing to sell out their nation and party to the EU is actually something to celebrate. It shows how dedicated the rest of the party is to democratic values, even though many have previously disagreed with leave, they have put the public view above their own. The 11 traitors have not been able to do that and should be purged for that reason. Not that you support democratic values, of course.
    If the Tories are foolish enough to purge their moderate wing, they'll never see a majority again.
    The 11 aren't the moderate wing. They are ultra-EUphiles who want to override the vote and take the UK into the USE.
    Try looking into the tent from outside, for a change?
  • IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
    "Malcontent" doesn't go anywhere near describing BJ - leaving aside any party issues, as a human being he's a prat of the first order. He fucked up as Mayor and has gone downhill since then.
    +1.
    +2
    +3

    Sir Hunky Dunky, who works with him reportedly referred to him with a four letter word beginning with 'c'.....
  • Does anyone use the word fornicators these days apart from in a humorous way?


  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820

    Blue Momentum.

    Yup, I keep on saying Brexiteers and Corbynistas are two cheeks of the same arse.

    I see Momentum types coming out with anti-Semitic bullshit about the Jews of Goldman Sachs and N M Rothschild & Sons Limited then we get this today...

    There may be similarities between Kippers and Corbynistas.

    But Kippers =/= Brexiteers
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,098

    Tories in pursuit of social stability - i.e. do just enough to stop the rest of us from stringing 'our betters' up from the nearest lamppost.

    This is not the place to be talking of stringing up betters from lampposts.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,736
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:



    "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right" was Randolph Churchill, not Carson. Carson was a far more sophisticated man than Churchill - and hated the dismemberment of his beloved homeland. For him Ulster was just a tool to try and prevent the dissolution of the Union - but he was then betrayed by James Craig.

    Wellington was not an Ultra (he pushed Catholic Emancipation through Parliament) and nor was Bonar Law - he was a bridge between Walter Long and the protectionists and Austen Chamberlain. IDS is more of a Radical than anything else: just look at his reforms to the welfare state.

    Apologies, it was Churchill but Carson did certainly organise the 'Solemn League and Covenant' of half a million to use all means necessary to resist Home Rule.

    Wellington opposed the Great Reform Act of 1832 and the expansion of the franchise which would suggest he was an Ultra. IDS voted against gay marriage and withdrew the whip from those who supported gay adoption and is a hard Brexiteer.
    For what it's worth, I wrote my thesis on Carson... The Covenant was simply political theatre in the tradition of the Ulstermen. As with Larne and Curragh, Carson never intended the UVF to actually fight (he was a former Solicitor General, Cabinet member, lawyer, politician and a member of one of the most prominent Ascendancy families). If he had really taken "the high road to treason and despair" do you think he would have been given a UK state funeral?

    As for Wellington:

    the Ultra-Tories were united in their antipathy towards the Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel for what they saw as a betrayal of Tory political and religious principle on the issue of Catholic Emancipation

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-Tories
    Carson represented much of Tory opinion at the time and indeed that in the country which was why Bonar Law almost won the 1910 elections on an anti Home Rule ticket.

    Peel was a Radical not an Ultra no but Wellington led Ultra resistance to the Great Reform Act

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,880
    Polruan said:

    Funnily enough, within your definitions I think May is a proper One Nationer and her weakness against both factions suggests this group is smaller/less powerful than it has been.

    Your definition of "a one nation Tory is one who will die in a ditch to defend the continuation of a status quo whose introduction they previously opposed" struck me as explaining a good part of why May became such a strident Brexiteer. Her mistake was perhaps that she didn't realise how difficult Brexit would be to deliver and hadn't yet become the new status quo merely because of a referendum.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,312



    Yep - seeing Dominic Grieve being accused of treachery is quite something. And not one of the Tories on here has demurred; just as so many moderates in Labour have stayed silent in the face of the far left's rise. The language is extraordinarily violent - especially when you remember what happened to Jo Cox. It's becoming clearer that the radical right resembles the radical left in many, many ways.

    There are parallels with the 1930s - a much sharper divide between left and right and an undercurrent of intolerance on both sides. This is partly, though not entirely, due to the divisive nature of the referendum and the failure of political leaders in all parties to make any attempts to heal the divisions they helped to create.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,736

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg will never lead the Conservative Party.
    David Davis will never lead the Conservative Party.
    if the decision is in 2020 it will be Hunt; if it is after 2022 it will skip to the next generation.

    +1

    While Thatcher had radical rhetoric and well understood the value of salami slicing (as does the EU) - and was also the first 'environmentalist' PM, grasping the threat of global warming as a scientist would - despite the sharp edges she was a One Nation Conservative.
    Thatcher was a Radical with One Nation elements in power, moving more towards an Ultra out of power
    In a documentary (I think it might have been one with Portillo from 2008) I remember Ken Clarke saying that Thatcher was quite pragmatic in cabinet for most of her time in office, except towards the end. I’ll try and find it, as it may be of interest to some on here.

    @Charles Jess Philips hasn’t commented on it yet from what I’ve seen, although she has previously made statements of support for those who have made accusations regarding sexual harrasment in Labour.
    Yes as PM she was more pragmatic than when she left office
    Here it is: from 20: 38
    Thanks
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,880
    Charles said:

    Blue Momentum.

    Yup, I keep on saying Brexiteers and Corbynistas are two cheeks of the same arse.

    I see Momentum types coming out with anti-Semitic bullshit about the Jews of Goldman Sachs and N M Rothschild & Sons Limited then we get this today...

    There may be similarities between Kippers and Corbynistas.

    But Kippers =/= Brexiteers
    Which one is Carswell? Which one is Hannan?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,736
    edited December 2017
    Yorkcity said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    Jacob Rees-Mogg will never lead the Conservative Party.
    David Davis will never lead the Conservative Party.
    if the decision is in 2020 it will be Hunt; if it is after 2022 it will skip to the next generation.

    +1

    While Thatcher had radical rhetoric and well understood the value of salami slicing (as does the EU) - and was also the first 'environmentalist' PM, grasping the threat of global warming as a scientist would - despite the sharp edges she was a One Nation Conservative.
    Thatcher was a Radical with One Nation elements in power, moving more towards an Ultra out of power
    In a documentary (I think it might have been one with Portillo from 2008) I remember Ken Clarke saying that Thatcher was quite pragmatic in cabinet for most of her time in office, except towards the end. I’ll try and find it, as it may be of interest to some on here.

    @Charles Jess Philips hasn’t commented on it yet from what I’ve seen, although she has previously made statements of support for those who have made accusations regarding sexual harrasment in Labour.
    Yes as PM she was more pragmatic than when she left office
    True .The Conservative party under Haque IDS and Howard seemed to lose all its Social reformism just became obsessed with Europe.Its argument against the minimum wage for many was a metaphor for what it thought about the low paid.
    Hague was One Nation really but campaigned as an Ultra in 2001, IDS was an Ultra, Howard mixed Ultra and Radical elements
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,273
    edited December 2017

    MaxPB said:

    Really interesting - thank-you.

    The problem is that the PM has ignored the One Nation strand of Conservatism and allowed the Ultras and Radicals to set the agenda - perhaps thinking that she could control them. In my view that cost the Tories their majority in June and could yet cause the country many long-term problems. Hopefully, May's eventual Phase One pragmatism is a sign that she is shifting to the One Nation wing.

    Her next task is to persuade her Party to accept the vassal status for the UK that Boris warns against for at least two years, and probably much longer. For that is what the transition period will mean.

    Yep, I am less sanguine than Charles about the Tories' returning to a semblance of unity post-Brexit. The Ultras and the Radicals are already writing the Betrayal narrative. From where I sit the choice for One Nation Tories really will be Party before Country, as it seems to me that Tory unity is dependent on them putting party first.

    When the alternative is Corbyn, there is no conflict. Of course it's always country before party, but at the moment the two are exactly the same.
    Yes, I was about to say the same, with Corbyn as the alternative, supporting the party and nation is the one and the same. The treachery of the 11 is truly complete. Hopefully we can purge them.

    Blue Momentum.

    I mentioned the uncanny similarities some on the Tory Right/Brexiteers are starting to have with momentum shortly after that vote. It’s been rather something to witness right wing newspapers demonise and intimidate opponents with front pages such as the Mail’s last week, the Telegraph’s recently, and the ‘Crush Sabouteurs’ one during the election, as well as the ‘Enemies of the People’ one too. Patricuarly given how the right have often criticised the left for demonising their opponents and have proclaimed their own belief in ‘diversity of thought.’

    Yep - seeing Dominic Grieve being accused of treachery is quite something. And not one of the Tories on here has demurred; just as so many moderates in Labour have stayed silent in the face of the far left's rise. The language is extraordinarily violent - especially when you remember what happened to Jo Cox. It's becoming clearer that the radical right resembles the radical left in many, many ways.

    Alastair Campbell was saying this on twitter yesterday:

  • I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:



    "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right" was Randolph Churchill, not Carson. Carson was a far more sophisticated man than Churchill - and hated the dismemberment of his beloved homeland. For him Ulster was just a tool to try and prevent the dissolution of the Union - but he was then betrayed by James Craig.

    Wellington was not an Ultra (he pushed Catholic Emancipation through Parliament) and nor was Bonar Law - he was a bridge between Walter Long and the protectionists and Austen Chamberlain. IDS is more of a Radical than anything else: just look at his reforms to the welfare state.

    Apologies, it was Churchill but Carson did certainly organise the 'Solemn League and Covenant' of half a million to use all means necessary to resist Home Rule.

    Wellington opposed the Great Reform Act of 1832 and the expansion of the franchise which would suggest he was an Ultra. IDS voted against gay marriage and withdrew the whip from those who supported gay adoption and is a hard Brexiteer.
    For what it's worth, I wrote my thesis on Carson... The Covenant was simply political theatre in the tradition of the Ulstermen. As with Larne and Curragh, Carson never intended the UVF to actually fight (he was a former Solicitor General, Cabinet member, lawyer, politician and a member of one of the most prominent Ascendancy families). If he had really taken "the high road to treason and despair" do you think he would have been given a UK state funeral?

    As for Wellington:

    the Ultra-Tories were united in their antipathy towards the Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel for what they saw as a betrayal of Tory political and religious principle on the issue of Catholic Emancipation

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-Tories
    Carson represented much of Tory opinion at the time and indeed that in the country which was why Bonar Law almost won the 1910 elections on an anti Home Rule ticket.

    Peel was a Radical not an Ultra no but Wellington led Ultra resistance to the Great Reform Act

    Carson resigned from the Tory party because he didn't trust them on the Union... Churchill was the Boris of his day...

    On Wellington I've given you the link, but I can't make you read it! The Ultras didn't have a common position on the Reform Act
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 6,489
    Good afternoon all.

    I agree with Southam and Ms Apocalypse; it's a pity to see people referring to Grieve et al's actions as 'treachery'.

    Democracy is a process, not an event. We are leaving the European Union after 25 years odd of being a member. The 'how' and the destination are legitimately up for debate, argument and parliamentary scrutiny.

    Of course there are Tories who would like BINO; it's a view, and it shouldn't be proscribed - particularly as the cabinet (to my astonishment) hasn't actually agreed our desired end state.

    I think we should all be more intolerant of intolerance. All major parties are coalitions of interests and views (not all of which are savoury), and we should strive to keep them that way.
  • I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Have a listen to this...
  • About that economic corpse we're shackled to....

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,820
    Polruan said:

    Thanks Charles - very thought provoking. I fear (well, perhaps hope) that you are being a bit too optimistic about the factional split of the party though.

    My reading would be that the membership is increasingly Ultra, to use your term: fearful of change, seeking to turn the clock back to a time of fewer foreigners living in our country and telling us what do. They reject the radical free trade agenda but go further than the pragmatic one nation position of wishing to preserve stability, and want to undo what they see as negative changes at any cost. A one nation Tory is one who will die in a ditch to defend the continuation of a status quo whose introduction they previously opposed.

    On the other hand the party was hijacked by the radicals for the last parliament and while Cameron never really have any sign of any convictions about anything, his theoretical one-nationness was overwhelmed by his willingness to appoint a load of radicals to key roles and to allow them to pursue ideologically-driven change agendas. I’m not making a point about whether those agendas were bad or good, but the focus on globalisation and marketisation combined with destructive cuts to the social fabric helped to give the Ultras more to react against.

    Funnily enough, within your definitions I think May is a proper One Nationer and her weakness against both factions suggests this group is smaller/less powerful than it has been. I’m not sure it is split as you argue, it looks more like it just contains fewer people than it used.

    Although I’m betting Hunt will be the next leader so I want to agree with your logic, I’d have him firmly in the radical camp given his approach to the NHS etc and globalising views more generally - am I being unfair to him?

    You deserve a proper response later

    But you do get a prize for being the first person to pick up on the Ditcher/Hedger reference to Lords Reform!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,266
    edited December 2017
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, still not as bad as when a Briton accusing the Saudis of torturing him was being interviewed outside court and they cut away for a live shot of the England football team bus rolling up to a hotel in Germany. Top priorities there.

    On-topic: interesting take on the history and current state of the Conservatives. The Big Society was actually a very good idea which sadly didn't fly.

    http://www.thefore.org/
    Jesus, that's a terrible website, design-wise.
    Talk to Fitch - they did it for us pro bono...

    www.wpp.com/wpp/companies/fitch/
    Sorry - didn't realise you were associated with it. But seriously, it's a terrible design, on mobile and PC - for instance black text on a green stripey background, non-scrolling text taking up a good proportion of the scrolling area. It also has fairly low accessibility.

    Edit, oh, and thanks for the threader. Very interesting.
  • I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Have a listen to this...
    Cheers, she was right about the next generation.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,736

    About that economic corpse we're shackled to....

    Italy may of course vote in 5* next May who are sceptical about the Euro
This discussion has been closed.