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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Three Tribes Go To War – the historical divides within the Tor

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2017

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU and more her flavour than her daughter.
  • FPT

    It's unclear what you want.

    You want us to Leave quickly, so we rejoin quickly.

    Yet, you want Brexit to be a success, because you don't want the single currency.

    I want a successful a Brexit so the country doesn't sufffer.

    But I fear we're going to get a bad Brexit which will mean us eventually rejoining, replete with single currency and Schengen.
  • HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited December 2017

    About that economic corpse we're shackled to....

    https://twitter.com/StewartWood/status/942710283461591040

    While I love data, it's always a shame when people use it for mere point scoring. UK GDP per capita is 1.7% higher than it was in 2006 (World Bank). That's more of an issue than how we're doing against our competition in one particular year.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    FPT

    It's unclear what you want.

    You want us to Leave quickly, so we rejoin quickly.

    Yet, you want Brexit to be a success, because you don't want the single currency.

    I want a successful a Brexit so the country doesn't sufffer.

    But I fear we're going to get a bad Brexit which will mean us eventually rejoining, replete with single currency and Schengen.
    Brexit has already made us turn inwards and start asking who we are again and there can be only one answer. We're going to learn to stop worrying and love the EU.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2017
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:



    "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right" was Randolph Churchill, not Carson. Carson was a far more sophisticated man than Churchill - and hated the dismemberment of his beloved homeland. For him Ulster was just a tool to try and prevent the dissolution of the Union - but he was then betrayed by James Craig.

    Wellington was not an Ultra (he pushed Catholic Emancipation through Parliament) and nor was Bonar Law - he was a bridge between Walter Long and the protectionists and Austen Chamberlain. IDS is more of a Radical than anything else: just look at his reforms to the welfare state.

    Apologies, it was Churchill but Carson did certainly organise the 'Solemn League and Covenant' of half a million to use all means necessary to resist Home Rule.

    Wellington opposed the Great Reform Act of 1832 and the expansion of the franchise which would suggest he was an Ultra. IDS voted against gay marriage and withdrew the whip from those who supported gay adoption and is a hard Brexiteer.
    For what it's worth, I wrote my thesis on Carson... The Covenant was simply political theatre in the tradition of the Ulstermen. As with Larne and Curragh, Carson never intended the UVF to actually fight (he was a former Solicitor General, Cabinet member, lawyer, politician and a member of one of the most prominent Ascendancy families). If he had really taken "the high road to treason and despair" do you think he would have been given a UK state funeral?

    As for Wellington:

    the Ultra-Tories were united in their antipathy towards the Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel for what they saw as a betrayal of Tory political and religious principle on the issue of Catholic Emancipation

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-Tories
    Carson represented much of Tory opinion at the time and indeed that in the country which was why Bonar Law almost won the 1910 elections on an anti Home Rule ticket.

    Peel was a Radical not an Ultra no but Wellington led Ultra resistance to the Great Reform Act

    Carson resigned from the Tory party because he didn't trust them on the Union... Churchill was the Boris of his day...

    On Wellington I've given you the link, but I can't make you read it! The Ultras didn't have a common position on the Reform Act
    Carson led the Ulster Unionist Party and opposed the 1921 Anglo Irish Treaty but it was Lloyd-George, not Bonar Law, who negotiated that.

    Most Ultras opposed the Reform Act and many Anglican bishops linked to the Ultras had their homes attacked by pro reform rioters, the minority of Ultras who supported the Reform Act did so purely out of political expediency as they thought it might increase the Protestant vote, not out of conviction.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    edited December 2017
    No guarantee of a transition deal until the Article 50 agreement is fully ratified. "Take back control!"

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/942741643924594688
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    John_M said:

    About that economic corpse we're shackled to....

    https://twitter.com/StewartWood/status/942710283461591040

    While I love data, it's always a shame when people use it for mere point scoring. UK GDP per capita is 1.7% higher than it was in 2006 (World Bank). That's more of an issue than how we're doing against our competition in one particular year.

    A million times this!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Mortimer said:

    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    Well, that hope lasted all of two minutes.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545

    No guarantee of a transition deal until the Article 50 agreement is fully ratified. "Take back control!"

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/942741643924594688

    It will be BINO. And the UK will have less control and less "sovereignty" than it has now.
  • The alternative is not Corbyn. It is what we have now. Corbyn will never win a Parliamentary majority.

    The probability of him getting a majority is low, but it's not zero. All it would take is for the Conservatives to split or collapse into chaos, which certainly can't be ruled out at the moment. For that matter, all it would take to make Corbyn the next PM with support from the SNP would be a small swing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    FPT

    It's unclear what you want.

    You want us to Leave quickly, so we rejoin quickly.

    Yet, you want Brexit to be a success, because you don't want the single currency.

    I want a successful a Brexit so the country doesn't sufffer.

    But I fear we're going to get a bad Brexit which will mean us eventually rejoining, replete with single currency and Schengen.
    Brexit has already made us turn inwards and start asking who we are again and there can be only one answer. We're going to learn to stop worrying and love the EU.
    Ironic, given your constant inwards looking view of the EU. From its lower colon....
  • Mortimer said:

    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...

    I don't want a lot for Christmas
    There is just one thing I need
    I don't care about the presents
    Underneath the Christmas tree
    I just want the fights to go
    More than you could ever know
    Make my wish come true oh
    All I want for Christmas is a relatively united Conservative Party, delivering on the referendum result
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    Well, that hope lasted all of two minutes.
    I hope HYUFD is in charge of any hypothetical second Leave campaign. It will go around interrogating people to see if they deserve their Brexit.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Thanks for the thread, Charles.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392

    No guarantee of a transition deal until the Article 50 agreement is fully ratified. "Take back control!"

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/942741643924594688

    Surely if the final deal is ratified then there would be no need for a transition period - we could just jump straight to the end state?
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    Well, that hope lasted all of two minutes.
    I hope HYUFD is in charge of any hypothetical second Leave campaign. It will go around interrogating people to see if they deserve their Brexit.
    And with you in charge of the Remain campaign it will truly be a referendum to remember.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    Plus voting Liberal in Hallam the last two general elections!
  • New Statesman:

    Although there are enough Brexit ultras to force a vote of no confidence in May's leadership, they are nowhere close to making up half of the parliamentary party plus one, which means that the PM can stay in office indefinitely provided she can keep the soft Brexiteers – who made her Prime Minister in the first place, don't forget – on side.

    ...So for all that there is a great deal of talk about May's weakness, as the time comes to decide what the final relationship with the European Union will look like, she has more freedom to set the country's destination than is widely thought.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/12/why-theresa-may-lot-safer-you-might-think
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    Well, that hope lasted all of two minutes.
    I hope HYUFD is in charge of any hypothetical second Leave campaign. It will go around interrogating people to see if they deserve their Brexit.
    I voted Remain
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    No guarantee of a transition deal until the Article 50 agreement is fully ratified. "Take back control!"

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/942741643924594688

    Surely if the final deal is ratified then there would be no need for a transition period - we could just jump straight to the end state?
    I think there are three things: A50/exit deal, transition deal, trade deal.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    The alternative is not Corbyn. It is what we have now. Corbyn will never win a Parliamentary majority.

    The probability of him getting a majority is low, but it's not zero. All it would take is for the Conservatives to split or collapse into chaos, which certainly can't be ruled out at the moment. For that matter, all it would take to make Corbyn the next PM with support from the SNP would be a small swing.
    Sooner or later, there will be another left wing government; there is no Thousand Year Tory Reich.
  • I've stayed at this hotel, wonderful hotel and wonderful area.

    Two people have died after a fire at the Cameron House Hotel beside Loch Lomond.

    More than 200 guests were evacuated from the hotel after the alarm was raised at about 06.40.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-42392459
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    John_M said:

    The alternative is not Corbyn. It is what we have now. Corbyn will never win a Parliamentary majority.

    The probability of him getting a majority is low, but it's not zero. All it would take is for the Conservatives to split or collapse into chaos, which certainly can't be ruled out at the moment. For that matter, all it would take to make Corbyn the next PM with support from the SNP would be a small swing.
    Sooner or later, there will be another left wing government; there is no Thousand Year Tory Reich.
    Yeah, the question is how left wing will it be?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    Plus voting Liberal in Hallam the last two general elections!
    Wrong, I voted Tory in 2015.

    I voted Lib Dem in 2017 as part of a vote swap with a Lib Dem in a Lab/Con marginal down the road which saw a Tory gain.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited December 2017
    John_M said:

    The alternative is not Corbyn. It is what we have now. Corbyn will never win a Parliamentary majority.

    The probability of him getting a majority is low, but it's not zero. All it would take is for the Conservatives to split or collapse into chaos, which certainly can't be ruled out at the moment. For that matter, all it would take to make Corbyn the next PM with support from the SNP would be a small swing.
    Sooner or later, there will be another left wing government; there is no Thousand Year Tory Reich.
    Sure, but we have to hope that the country hasn't sufficiently lost its marbles to make the current opposition front bench the one it next goes for.
  • Superb article, Charles.

    The whole point of the Conservative Party is to be conservative: to conserve, and minimise change.

    Now, that can sound regressive (and, indeed, progressive political parties characterise it as such) but actually most democracies need 'a' conservative party to put a reality check and challenge back to the radical parties.

    Gradual reform is the mission, rather than radical change; otherwise, quite a few things societies value get swept away, the treasury empties and society overall can destabilise.
  • New Statesman:

    Although there are enough Brexit ultras to force a vote of no confidence in May's leadership, they are nowhere close to making up half of the parliamentary party plus one, which means that the PM can stay in office indefinitely provided she can keep the soft Brexiteers – who made her Prime Minister in the first place, don't forget – on side.

    ...So for all that there is a great deal of talk about May's weakness, as the time comes to decide what the final relationship with the European Union will look like, she has more freedom to set the country's destination than is widely thought.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/12/why-theresa-may-lot-safer-you-might-think

    She'd win the vote, but it might fatally weaken her.

    Say 120 Tory MPs failed to back her in the vote of no confidence, she'd be toast.

    Thatcher won the 1990 first round ballot with 54.8% of the vote, but in less than 48 hours she had announced her intention to step down.
  • HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    Well, that hope lasted all of two minutes.
    I hope HYUFD is in charge of any hypothetical second Leave campaign. It will go around interrogating people to see if they deserve their Brexit.
    I voted Remain
    Its funny how some ardent Remainers think the only people who support Brexit are Leave voters.

    The possibility that they might be Remainers who believe in democracy does not appear to occur to them....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited December 2017
    Given current polling, I reckon the Tory vote in Sheffield Hallam would crater if Jared O'Meara was the Labour candidate at the next election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    Well, that hope lasted all of two minutes.
    I hope HYUFD is in charge of any hypothetical second Leave campaign. It will go around interrogating people to see if they deserve their Brexit.
    I voted Remain
    Its funny how some ardent Remainers think the only people who support Brexit are Leave voters.

    The possibility that they might be Remainers who believe in democracy does not appear to occur to them....
    Too true. I was always 50 50 really but voted Remain as we were still outside the Euro and from a personal view I was not that bothered about free movement enough to leave the single market but now Leave has won we must accept that most Leavers were.
  • FPT

    It's unclear what you want.

    You want us to Leave quickly, so we rejoin quickly.

    Yet, you want Brexit to be a success, because you don't want the single currency.

    I want a successful a Brexit so the country doesn't sufffer.

    But I fear we're going to get a bad Brexit which will mean us eventually rejoining, replete with single currency and Schengen.
    I think you want Brexit stopped before it happens, with us remaining on existing terms or on Dave's deal.

    If not, you'd take Osborne's position: which is straight BINO (single market/customs union, the works) with him then back as leader and PM, to lead a reaccession subsequently.
  • HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    No true Tory would write this.
  • IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
    "Malcontent" doesn't go anywhere near describing BJ - leaving aside any party issues, as a human being he's a prat of the first order. He fucked up as Mayor and has gone downhill since then.
    +1.
    +2
    +3

    Sir Hunky Dunky, who works with him reportedly referred to him with a four letter word beginning with 'c'.....
    Steady on.

    He did a good job as Mayor. But, he's not leadership material.

    He'd be good for pep talks to the troops in wartime.
  • FPT

    It's unclear what you want.

    You want us to Leave quickly, so we rejoin quickly.

    Yet, you want Brexit to be a success, because you don't want the single currency.

    I want a successful a Brexit so the country doesn't sufffer.

    But I fear we're going to get a bad Brexit which will mean us eventually rejoining, replete with single currency and Schengen.
    I think you want Brexit stopped before it happens, with us remaining on existing terms or on Dave's deal.

    If not, you'd take Osborne's position: which is straight BINO (single market/customs union, the works) with him then back as leader and PM, to lead a reaccession subsequently.
    Democracy must be honoured, so that means leaving the EU and the single market/customs union.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    Plus voting Liberal in Hallam the last two general elections!
    Wrong, I voted Tory in 2015.

    I voted Lib Dem in 2017 as part of a vote swap with a Lib Dem in a Lab/Con marginal down the road which saw a Tory gain.
    Nonetheless there was still a Tory candidate in Hallam in 2017. Although you celebrated the Cameron majority in 2015 I think you would really have preferred a permanent Tory LD governing Coalition, there would have been no EU referendum and Cameron and Osborne and Clegg would still be in charge now.
  • https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/942704964635422720

    How has this Corbynista (see the tweet Rifkind is responding to) made this about Corbyn?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    Plus voting Liberal in Hallam the last two general elections!
    Wrong, I voted Tory in 2015.

    I voted Lib Dem in 2017 as part of a vote swap with a Lib Dem in a Lab/Con marginal down the road which saw a Tory gain.
    Nonetheless there was still a Tory candidate in Hallam in 2017. Although you celebrated the Cameron majority in 2015 I think you would really have preferred a permanent Coalition, there would have been no EU referendum and Cameron and Osborne and Clegg would still be in charge now.
    You really don't know me or what I think.

    I'm absolutely delighted Dave won a majority, the only Tory to do so in the last quarter of a century.

    Do you think the Daily Mail are Lib Dems too? Because they encouraged Tory voters in Sheffield Hallam to vote Lib Dem in June.

    They produced a guide of where Tory voters should vote tactically and Hallam was one of the top suggestions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Hunt should beware the old adage 'try to please everyone, end up pleasing no one'
  • HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    No true Tory would write this.
    TINO....

    A true Tory would arrange a different monarch......its been done before....
  • HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    No true Tory would write this.
    TINO....

    A true Tory would arrange a different monarch......its been done before....
    Yup, I want King Henry IX and Queen Meghan.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    Plus voting Liberal in Hallam the last two general elections!
    Wrong, I voted Tory in 2015.

    I voted Lib Dem in 2017 as part of a vote swap with a Lib Dem in a Lab/Con marginal down the road which saw a Tory gain.
    Nonetheless there was still a Tory candidate in Hallam in 2017. Although you celebrated the Cameron majority in 2015 I think you would really have preferred a permanent Coalition, there would have been no EU referendum and Cameron and Osborne and Clegg would still be in charge now.
    You really don't know me or what I think.

    I'm absolutely delighted Dave won a majority, the only Tory to do so in the last quarter of a century.

    Do you think the Daily Mail are Lib Dems too? Because they encouraged Tory voters in Sheffield Hallam to vote Lib Dem in June.

    They produced a guide of where Tory voters should vote tactically and Hallam was one of the top suggestions.
    The Daily Mail leans Tory but is not the Tory housepaper, that is the Daily Telegraph.
  • HYUFD said:

    The Daily Mail leans Tory but is not the Tory housepaper, that is the Daily Telegraph.

    My vote in June helped the Tories gain a seat from Labour.

    Endex.
  • HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    No true Tory would write this.
    TINO....

    A true Tory would arrange a different monarch......its been done before....
    Yup, I want King Henry IX and Queen Meghan.
    Me too!
  • I don't care.

    Some of us have backed Hunt at 100/1 and 66/1.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    In what way is Hunt a better candidate than Rudd?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    The Daily Mail leans Tory but is not the Tory housepaper, that is the Daily Telegraph.

    My vote in June helped the Tories gain a seat from Labour.

    Endex.
    Actually someone else's vote helped the Tories gain a seat from Labour promising they followed through with te swap, your vote helped the LDs remain second in Hallam.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
    "Malcontent" doesn't go anywhere near describing BJ - leaving aside any party issues, as a human being he's a prat of the first order. He fucked up as Mayor and has gone downhill since then.
    +1.
    +2
    +3

    Sir Hunky Dunky, who works with him reportedly referred to him with a four letter word beginning with 'c'.....
    Steady on.

    He did a good job as Mayor. But, he's not leadership material.

    He'd be good for pep talks to the troops in wartime.
    Party Chairman then?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    Well, that hope lasted all of two minutes.
    I hope HYUFD is in charge of any hypothetical second Leave campaign. It will go around interrogating people to see if they deserve their Brexit.
    I voted Remain
    Its funny how some ardent Remainers think the only people who support Brexit are Leave voters.

    The possibility that they might be Remainers who believe in democracy does not appear to occur to them....
    Too true. I was always 50 50 really but voted Remain as we were still outside the Euro and from a personal view I was not that bothered about free movement enough to leave the single market but now Leave has won we must accept that most Leavers were.
    Same here my thoughts exactly.
  • In what way is Hunt a better candidate than Rudd?

    Spent more time at the coal face in a very difficult job.

    Rudd's been Home Secretary for less than 18 months, Hunt's been Health Secretary for over 5 years.

    Done the job competently, faced down the striking Docs.

    Also has the advantage of a hefty majority in Surrey.
  • In what way is Hunt a better candidate than Rudd?

    That's a good question. I'd say they were both good options. Hunt has the advantage of a safe seat, and is perhaps harder-nosed, but he has the disadvantage of having been tainted with the NHS poisoned chalice.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited December 2017

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Boris is a malcontent. This has got to come to a head shortly. He's undermining Theresa at every opportunity - goading and goading her until she's left with no choice but to sack him. He's completely rubbishing Theresa's EU plans and making her look feeble and inept.
    "Malcontent" doesn't go anywhere near describing BJ - leaving aside any party issues, as a human being he's a prat of the first order. He fucked up as Mayor and has gone downhill since then.
    +1.
    +2
    +3

    Sir Hunky Dunky, who works with him reportedly referred to him with a four letter word beginning with 'c'.....
    Steady on.

    He did a good job as Mayor. But, he's not leadership material.

    He'd be good for pep talks to the troops in wartime.
    Party Chairman then?
    Her Majesty's Most Excellent Ambassador and Plenipotentiary to the Islamic Republic of Iran?
  • In what way is Hunt a better candidate than Rudd?

    That's a good question. I'd say they were both good options. Hunt has the advantage of a safe seat, and is perhaps harder-nosed, but he has the disadvantage of having been tainted with the NHS poisoned chalice.
    This is why I'm hoping Damian Green has to resign or be sacked.

    If Green goes May can make Hunt First Secretary of State and get him away from Health.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,880

    In what way is Hunt a better candidate than Rudd?

    More successful in business, no links to Bahama based businesses, much bigger majority, can. Claim to be more of a leaver than Rudd... from the perspective of the Tory party faithful Hunt is hated by the right groups - doctors and nurses, while Rudd is not well liked by the police (Moreno popular in Tory households?)

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    I dunno, these Johnny-Come-Lately's......

    I was properly blooded in pavement-pounding at the Ashfied by-election in 1977. Where we got a Tory MP in a mining seat, on a swing of over 20%.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    I dunno, these Johnny-Come-Lately's......

    I was properly blooded in pavement-pounding at the Ashfied by-election in 1977. Where we got a Tory MP in a mining seat, on a swing of over 20%.
    I wasn't even born in 1977.

    I would have campaigned for the Tories in 1997 but I was doing my A-Levels then, I was under a lot of pressure and I don't think my Mum would have allowed it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    In what way is Hunt a better candidate than Rudd?

    That's a good question. I'd say they were both good options. Hunt has the advantage of a safe seat, and is perhaps harder-nosed, but he has the disadvantage of having been tainted with the NHS poisoned chalice.
    Hunt is also about the last person you think of when Brexit is mentioned...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited December 2017
    Hopefully a local yokel getting freaked out by one of those dragons in the skies.

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/942761013333684227
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    I dunno, these Johnny-Come-Lately's......

    I was properly blooded in pavement-pounding at the Ashfied by-election in 1977. Where we got a Tory MP in a mining seat, on a swing of over 20%.
    I wasn't even born in 1977.

    I would have campaigned for the Tories in 1997 but I was doing my A-Levels then, I was under a lot of pressure and I don't think my Mum would have allowed it.
    I was born 36 years ago today and attended my first Tory rally in 1992 for John Major and canvassed in Tonbridge for the Tories in 1997
  • In what way is Hunt a better candidate than Rudd?

    That's a good question. I'd say they were both good options. Hunt has the advantage of a safe seat, and is perhaps harder-nosed, but he has the disadvantage of having been tainted with the NHS poisoned chalice.
    Hunt is also about the last person you think of when Brexit is mentioned...
    True
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    I dunno, these Johnny-Come-Lately's......

    I was properly blooded in pavement-pounding at the Ashfied by-election in 1977. Where we got a Tory MP in a mining seat, on a swing of over 20%.
    I wasn't even born in 1977.

    I would have campaigned for the Tories in 1997 but I was doing my A-Levels then, I was under a lot of pressure and I don't think my Mum would have allowed it.
    I was born 36 years ago today and attended my first Tory rally in 1992 for John Major and canvassed in Tonbridge for the Tories in 1997
    It sounds like you're introducing yourself at a meeting of "Tories anonymous"!

    Edit - Happy Birthday!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    I dunno, these Johnny-Come-Lately's......

    I was properly blooded in pavement-pounding at the Ashfied by-election in 1977. Where we got a Tory MP in a mining seat, on a swing of over 20%.
    I wasn't even born in 1977.

    I would have campaigned for the Tories in 1997 but I was doing my A-Levels then, I was under a lot of pressure and I don't think my Mum would have allowed it.
    I was born 36 years ago today and attended my first Tory rally in 1992 for John Major and canvassed in Tonbridge for the Tories in 1997
    It sounds like you're introducing yourself at a meeting of "Tories anonymous"!
    LOL!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    I dunno, these Johnny-Come-Lately's......

    I was properly blooded in pavement-pounding at the Ashfied by-election in 1977. Where we got a Tory MP in a mining seat, on a swing of over 20%.
    I wasn't even born in 1977.

    I would have campaigned for the Tories in 1997 but I was doing my A-Levels then, I was under a lot of pressure and I don't think my Mum would have allowed it.
    I was born 36 years ago today and attended my first Tory rally in 1992 for John Major and canvassed in Tonbridge for the Tories in 1997
    It sounds like you're introducing yourself at a meeting of "Tories anonymous"!

    Edit - Happy Birthday!
    Getting into practice for a Corbyn Premiership!

    Thanks too
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    I'd personally slice the great coalition that is the Conservative Party slightly differently. I'd identify four components:

    - business friendly (Nigel Lawson)
    - socially conservative (TMay)
    - One Nation (Ken Clarke)
    - libertarian (Dan Hannan).

    As with any coalition, successful leaders must straddle divides within the party, offering bribes to each, while disappointing them in equal measure. So Margaret offered:

    - the business friendly trade union reform, etc.
    - the socially conservative clause 28
    - the one Nationers the continuation of the welfare state
    - the libertarians market liberalisation (also a boon to the business friendly).

    Indeed when a government has a tiny majority (Major in the 90s and TMay now), British political history comprises little else besides this balancing act.

    Of course, one can identify components (sometimes parallel, sometimes opposite) amongst the Socialists.
  • Hopefully a local yokel getting freaked out by one of those dragons in the skies.

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/942761013333684227

    Not hat's Lakenheath you're thinking of.

    Mildenhall is all Eagles.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mortimer said:

    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...

    Apparently Wellington isn't a Tory...
  • Fishing said:

    I'd personally slice the great coalition that is the Conservative Party slightly differently. I'd identify four components:

    - business friendly (Nigel Lawson)
    - socially conservative (TMay)
    - One Nation (Ken Clarke)
    - libertarian (Dan Hannan).

    As with any coalition, successful leaders must straddle divides within the party, offering bribes to each, while disappointing them in equal measure. So Margaret offered:

    - the business friendly trade union reform, etc.
    - the socially conservative clause 28
    - the one Nationers the continuation of the welfare state
    - the libertarians market liberalisation (also a boon to the business friendly).

    Indeed when a government has a tiny majority (Major in the 90s and TMay now), British political history comprises little else besides this balancing act.

    Of course, one can identify components (sometimes parallel, sometimes opposite) amongst the Socialists.

    Mrs May isn't a social conservative.

    A social conservative wouldn't have championed same sex marriage.
  • Charles said:

    Mortimer said:

    Top thread Charles.

    I hope this might stop Tories on here telling other Tories (or potential voters) that they aren't Tories...

    Apparently Wellington isn't a Tory...
    You can't get more Tory than giving the French a good shoeing.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    edited December 2017



    Mrs May isn't a social conservative.

    A social conservative wouldn't have championed same sex marriage.

    Depends - some social conservatives favoured bringing gays into the institution of marriage, which they believed to be the bedrock of society.

    Anyway, a social conservative would have upgraded marijuana to a class B, while most other democracies were moving towards legalisation; introduced the snooper's charter and repeatedly promised to cut immigration. May did all those.
  • Hopefully a local yokel getting freaked out by one of those dragons in the skies.

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/942761013333684227

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/942764432949743617
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    I dunno, these Johnny-Come-Lately's......

    I was properly blooded in pavement-pounding at the Ashfied by-election in 1977. Where we got a Tory MP in a mining seat, on a swing of over 20%.
    I wasn't even born in 1977.

    I would have campaigned for the Tories in 1997 but I was doing my A-Levels then, I was under a lot of pressure and I don't think my Mum would have allowed it.
    I was born 36 years ago today and attended my first Tory rally in 1992 for John Major and canvassed in Tonbridge for the Tories in 1997
    Happy birthday youngster!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    Hopefully a local yokel getting freaked out by one of those dragons in the skies.

    https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/942761013333684227

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/942764432949743617
    Sounds like he was freaked out by one of them there "Devil's chariots" they have in that there London.....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Why the Germans are right about economics

    https://www.ft.com/content/ca8e2822-e3da-11e7-97e2-916d4fbac0da
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973

    In what way is Hunt a better candidate than Rudd?

    That's a good question. I'd say they were both good options. Hunt has the advantage of a safe seat, and is perhaps harder-nosed, but he has the disadvantage of having been tainted with the NHS poisoned chalice.
    Have been impressed with Hunts recent move to embrace social media. Thick skinned as well having recently done a Facebook live Q and A session - the amount of abuse flung at him..

    I've a few reservations about his own grasp of the details on occasion (in a work guise) but I think his stock has improved rapidly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,558
    Fishing said:



    Mrs May isn't a social conservative.

    A social conservative wouldn't have championed same sex marriage.

    Depends - some social conservatives favoured bringing gays into the institution of marriage, which they believed to be the bedrock of society.

    Anyway, a social conservative would have upgraded marijuana to a class B, while most other democracies were moving towards legalisation; introduced the snooper's charter and repeatedly promised to cut immigration. May did all those.
    Yes, not a bizarre reactionary along the lines of JRM, but pretty conservative.

  • HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    No true Tory would write this.
    TINO....

    A true Tory would arrange a different monarch......its been done before....
    Yup, I want King Henry IX and Queen Meghan.
    Surely a member of the Conservative and Unionist Party would look forward to King Henry I?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957
    Be curious to know how many tribes Labour currently has.

    And how many of them are walking the desert.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:



    "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right" was Randolph Churchill, not Carson. Carson was a far more sophisticated man than Churchill - and hated the dismemberment of his beloved homeland. For him Ulster was just a tool to try and prevent the dissolution of the Union - but he was then betrayed by James Craig.

    Wellington was not an Ultra (he pushed Catholic Emancipation through Parliament) and nor was Bonar Law - he was a bridge between Walter Long and the protectionists and Austen Chamberlain. IDS is more of a Radical than anything else: just look at his reforms to the welfare state.

    Apologies, it was Churchill but Carson did certainly organise the 'Solemn League and Covenant' of half a million to use all means necessary to resist Home Rule.

    Wellington opposed the Great Reform Act of 1832 and the expansion of the franchise which would suggest he was an Ultra. IDS voted against gay marriage and withdrew the whip from those who supported gay adoption and is a hard Brexiteer.
    For what it's worth, I wrote my thesis on Carson... The Covenant was simply political theatre in the tradition of the Ulstermen. As with Larne and Curragh, Carson never intended the UVF to actually fight (he was a former Solicitor General, Cabinet member, lawyer, politician and a member of one of the most prominent Ascendancy families). If he had really taken "the high road to treason and despair" do you think he would have been given a UK state funeral?

    As for Wellington:

    the Ultra-Tories were united in their antipathy towards the Duke of Wellington and Sir Robert Peel for what they saw as a betrayal of Tory political and religious principle on the issue of Catholic Emancipation

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-Tories
    Carson represented much of Tory opinion at the time and indeed that in the country which was why Bonar Law almost won the 1910 elections on an anti Home Rule ticket.

    Peel was a Radical not an Ultra no but Wellington led Ultra resistance to the Great Reform Act

    At risk of sounding like Justin, Bonar Law was not Unionist leader until 1911 and Home Rule was not an issue in either election of 1910. The first was primarily about the budget, the second about the constitution. Secondary issues included tariffs and education, rather than Ireland.

    Afterwards, because the Liberals had no overall majority and swiftly became the second largest party due to by-election losses leaving them once again dependent on Irish support, it became an issue. It was also, helpfully, an issue on which the entire Unionist party was united while the Liberals were quite badly split.

    And happy birthday, have a good one.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    The Queen is apolitical completely, the Queen Mother was never sovereign, your Republicanism of course tips you from being a Radical Tory to an Orange Book Liberal.
    TINO.......
    How many Tory MPs have you helped elect?

    I've been pounding the pavements since the days of William Hague.
    I dunno, these Johnny-Come-Lately's......

    I was properly blooded in pavement-pounding at the Ashfied by-election in 1977. Where we got a Tory MP in a mining seat, on a swing of over 20%.
    I wasn't even born in 1977.

    I would have campaigned for the Tories in 1997 but I was doing my A-Levels then, I was under a lot of pressure and I don't think my Mum would have allowed it.
    I was born 36 years ago today and attended my first Tory rally in 1992 for John Major and canvassed in Tonbridge for the Tories in 1997
    HB HYUFD!
  • Surely a member of the Conservative and Unionist Party would look forward to King Henry I?

    I thought the convention was from Union of the Crowns/The Act of the Union we'd go for whatever the highest number the Regnal name had been used before by either Crown.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733

    HYUFD said:

    I reckon Mrs Thatcher was a closet Republican too.

    "The problem is, [Thatcher] lamented, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.”

    Actually she treated the Queen with reverence and always gave a deep curtsy to her.

    The Queen Mother though was a staunch Thatcherite and anti EU.
    So our Monarchy is deeply political.

    It is meant to be apolitical.

    Abolish it now.
    No true Tory would write this.
    TINO....

    A true Tory would arrange a different monarch......its been done before....
    Yup, I want King Henry IX and Queen Meghan.
    Surely a member of the Conservative and Unionist Party would look forward to King Henry I?
    Harry has quite a reputation as a ladies' man, but I don't think he's quite up to the awesome standard of sex mania sustained by the third Norman king.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Be curious to know how many tribes Labour currently has.

    And how many of them are walking the desert.....

    Just two, obviously: socialists and Red Tories.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    edited December 2017

    Surely a member of the Conservative and Unionist Party would look forward to King Henry I?

    I thought the convention was from Union of the Crowns/The Act of the Union we'd go for whatever the highest number the Regnal name had been used before by either Crown.
    A more difficult question might be whether he would be Henry IX or Henry X. Just as Charles seeems to be dodging questions about being Charles III or Charles IV by saying he'll be George VII.
  • ydoethur said:

    Surely a member of the Conservative and Unionist Party would look forward to King Henry I?

    I thought the convention was from Union of the Crowns/The Act of the Union we'd go for whatever the highest number the Regnal name had been used before by either Crown.
    A more difficult question might be whether he would be Henry IX or Henry X. Just as Charles seeems to be dodging questions about being Charles III or Charles IV by saying he'll be George VII.
    Perhaps Harry could honour his father and go for King James?
  • Happy birthday @HYUFD I have to say I would never have thought you’d be a millennial (I thought you were older!)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733

    ydoethur said:

    Surely a member of the Conservative and Unionist Party would look forward to King Henry I?

    I thought the convention was from Union of the Crowns/The Act of the Union we'd go for whatever the highest number the Regnal name had been used before by either Crown.
    A more difficult question might be whether he would be Henry IX or Henry X. Just as Charles seeems to be dodging questions about being Charles III or Charles IV by saying he'll be George VII.
    Perhaps Harry could honour his father and go for King James?
    Wouldn't help - James III or James IV?
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    (...)Do you think the Daily Mail are Lib Dems too? Because they encouraged Tory voters in Sheffield Hallam to vote Lib Dem in June.

    They produced a guide of where Tory voters should vote tactically and Hallam was one of the top suggestions.

    The kiss of death for Nick Clegg?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,733
    edited December 2017
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Surely a member of the Conservative and Unionist Party would look forward to King Henry I?

    I thought the convention was from Union of the Crowns/The Act of the Union we'd go for whatever the highest number the Regnal name had been used before by either Crown.
    A more difficult question might be whether he would be Henry IX or Henry X. Just as Charles seeems to be dodging questions about being Charles III or Charles IV by saying he'll be George VII.
    Perhaps Harry could honour his father and go for King James?
    Wouldn't help - James III or James IV?
    In fact though he would be James VIII or IX following that custom of the higher regnal number.

    Perhaps it would be easier to be David III?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Happy birthday @HYUFD I have to say I would never have thought you’d be a millennial (I thought you were older!)

    Someone told me the other day that Millenials are still under 30 - between generation X and millenials are Z-enials, apparently.

    Who knew.
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