The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
IMO the story supports the widely held perception that punishments for electoral fraud are ludicrously light, and unfortunately does little to challenge stereotypes about this being a crime dominated by Asians.
Subverting our democracy is surely equal to or worse than eg lying about speeding points, yet Chris Huhne went to jail and this guy receives a joke sentence of a £380 fine.
The fact is he wouldn't have been caught had he not bragged about it on social media, begging the question of how widespread this practice might be under the radar.
A good read, thanks for the link. And the looming strategic problem for the Tories in a sentence:
The Conservatives have secured for themselves a predominately pro-Brexit socially conservative electorate whose wish for greater “control” puts them at odds with the views of the party’s traditional allies in big business, who hitherto have been attracted by the more laissez-faire, pro-free market, centre right stance of the Conservative party.
As one door closes, another opens.
Nevertheless the whole escapade will surely unleash far more change for the Tories than their mindset is used to accommodating.
and @Philip_Thompson I don’t think saying that Nick Robinson posing in a selfie with what we know to be the deputy leader of Britain First is ‘awkward’ is a particularly controversial statement, in fact I’d have thought it was fairly obvious that such a picture is a bit awkward. I doubt that he knew who she was. Given that he was political editor of the BBC for god knows how long though, I’m surprised that he wasn’t aware about far right groups such as Britain First.
As it appears he was at a Rochester election, and as a broadcaster, you would think he would have done a little background research to see who the candidates were, maybe even look at literature they had disseminated including photographic representation of the facial characteristics of said candidates.
The fact that the lady was wearing a great big badge emblazoned with the word candidate, you would think that the hack from the local rag would be able to work out who she was. I think it says more about slipshop working practice by Robinson than anything else.
If it was done around the time of the onset of his illness, I forgive him. Otherwise he should have known who she was or had the ability to work it out - the information was laid out in front of him.
She's not an important person. He may have thought he remembered her from somewhere, not sure where, and was being polite.
Making an assumption that it was an 'important' election for the BBC to send one of the 'Star' journalists there, then all the candidates are important in the analysis of where the votes went. A move to the far right (or away) is newsworthy in a tight contest.
She got 56 votes, fewer votes than the Monster Raving Loony Party. She was not newsworthy, the real parties he was there to cover were.
Since you reference it, it was also at the onset of his illness I believe. This was late 2014 and it was early 2015 he underwent chemo as his cancer had gotten worse so he would have already been fighting his cancer by this stage.
She was one of eight(?) candidates, 4 or 5 male (?), 2 or 3 female (?). He should have known. I guess she could only be one of two or three people in the room.
I will give benefit of the doubt based on the caveat of the onset of ill health.
And did he know the result and votes per candidate before he attended?
Very charitable of you to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Why shouldn't a private citizen do the polite thing and pose with another private citizen for a photograph without incurring your wrath?
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
No prime minister, since we became a democracy in 1918 who already had a working majority that has called an un-necessary election before 4 of the 5 years of a parliament was complete in order to increase that majority has ever won that election with a majority. .
A good read, thanks for the link. And the looming strategic problem for the Tories in a sentence:
The Conservatives have secured for themselves a predominately pro-Brexit socially conservative electorate whose wish for greater “control” puts them at odds with the views of the party’s traditional allies in big business, who hitherto have been attracted by the more laissez-faire, pro-free market, centre right stance of the Conservative party.
Yep. The Tory Right should be in favour of this. I thought they loved markets and trade.
Indeed, one of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements as Prime Minister.
It is incredible really isn't it.
And we will end up rejoining. That's if we ever leave, which I still very much doubt.
When it came to it, most conservatives decided that democracy and sovereignty mattered more than economic integration.
I'm shocked that the EU officials have begun to suggest that the next stage of the negotiations will be difficult and even more shocked that those who would like the Referendum result reversed are giving them so much publicity. It really is a complete mystery and they have never done anything like this before. Never. Ever. No siree.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Intolerance of different views is certainly not limited to the Labour leadership.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Intolerance of different views is certainly not limited to the Labour leadership.
The Labour leadership is very tolerant of different views. In fact they lead by example and hold several different ones at the same time themselves.
Well, I didn’t. Given the fact that Fransen’s been in the news recently, that’s probably the reason as to why the story has been ‘dug up’ again so to speak.
May repeating that we're not going to be allowed a second referendum is a good way to increase the desire to hold one.
Not really. A referendum was held; a result was provided. You cannot keep asking for another because you didn't like the result.
The trick is making sure the people who voted for it like the result of the result. Can the government pull off that trick?
We know you believe the British public are terminally dumb and should not be allowed to vote but thankfully the rest of us do not share that bigoted view.
Someone appears to have given UKIP some money. They have printed and are paying Royal Mail to deliver, in the South East at least, unaddressed door-to-door a leaflet "Brexit under threat: Here's how our voice is being betrayed", with photo of Farage with the South East MEP.
"Nigel Farage is fighting to get on with Brexit immediately. It's unacceptable that even if you believe Theresa May, Brexit may not be completed until 2021 (shock, horror!)
The liberal use of the EFD logo suggests this is being funded by UKIP's EP money.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Intolerance of different views is certainly not limited to the Labour leadership.
No but it is not there in the other political party leaders in this country at the moment - interesting to see you being so defensive about the Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum axis.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Is this Nick "Toenails" Robinson who has frequently been accused on here and elsewhere of perceived anti-Tory bias?
Well, I didn’t. Given the fact that Fransen’s been in the news recently, that’s probably the reason as to why the story has been ‘dug up’ again so to speak.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Intolerance of different views is certainly not limited to the Labour leadership.
No but it is not there in the other political party leaders in this country at the moment - interesting to see you being so defensive about the Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum axis.
I don’t believe I *was* defensive about the Corbyn and McDonnell. I’d say implying they are intolerant of other views is the precise opposite of being defensive of them actually - it’s being critical. Pointing out that intolerance isn’t limited to the left side of the political side isn’t really being ‘defensive’.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Is this Nick "Toenails" Robinson who has frequently been accused on here and elsewhere of perceived anti-Tory bias?
He may have been although not by me. I should correct my earlier mistake -which should have read 'perceived by them [the left] as partial'.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Intolerance of different views is certainly not limited to the Labour leadership.
No but it is not there in the other political party leaders in this country at the moment - interesting to see you being so defensive about the Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum axis.
I don’t believe I *was* defensive about the Corbyn and McDonnell. I’d say implying they are intolerant of other views is the precise opposite of being defensive of them actually - it’s being critical. Pointing out that intolerance isn’t limited to the left side of the political side isn’t really being ‘defensive’.
Which other current party leaders would you accuse?
Well, I didn’t. Given the fact that Fransen’s been in the news recently, that’s probably the reason as to why the story has been ‘dug up’ again so to speak.
And you are so happy to repeat it.
Happy? I said it was awkward (I actually only became aware of picture today) I was hardly doing the conga, a tango, a jive all while singing ‘glory, glory hallelujah’ at the same time.
Someone appears to have given UKIP some money. They have printed and are paying Royal Mail to deliver, in the South East at least, unaddressed door-to-door a leaflet "Brexit under threat: Here's how our voice is being betrayed", with photo of Farage with the South East MEP.
"Nigel Farage is fighting to get on with Brexit immediately. It's unacceptable that even if you believe Theresa May, Brexit may not be completed until 2021 (shock, horror!)
The liberal use of the EFD logo suggests this is being funded by UKIP's EP money.
Got one (actually two) of them through today in the post but referencing the North East instead.
The Labour leadership is very tolerant of different views. In fact they lead by example and hold several different ones at the same time themselves.
Lol, nicely put. I think they are genuinely tolerant (some of their fans, not so much) - partly being an outsider for 40 years makes you reluctant to push anyone around, and they don't really need to. But I agree that some of the policy is best characterised as constructive ambiguity. I'm OK with that for now - we know the general outlook, and I don't see a need for precision less than one year after the election.
Interesting example of perception bias: the Telegraph blog confides that most Cabinet members leant towards divergence from EU standards, and the Guardian blog confides precisely the opposite. Everyone agrees that May didn't come down firmly either way, though.
Someone appears to have given UKIP some money. They have printed and are paying Royal Mail to deliver, in the South East at least, unaddressed door-to-door a leaflet "Brexit under threat: Here's how our voice is being betrayed", with photo of Farage with the South East MEP.
"Nigel Farage is fighting to get on with Brexit immediately. It's unacceptable that even if you believe Theresa May, Brexit may not be completed until 2021 (shock, horror!)
The liberal use of the EFD logo suggests this is being funded by UKIP's EP money.
Got one (actually two) of them through today in the post but referencing the North East instead.
Since there is no obvious electoral benefit to their delivering nationwide just before Xmas, one assumes this is intended to frighten Tory MPs as they return to their constituencies for an Xmas break...
Well, I didn’t. Given the fact that Fransen’s been in the news recently, that’s probably the reason as to why the story has been ‘dug up’ again so to speak.
And you are so happy to repeat it.
Happy? I said it was awkward (I actually only became aware of picture today) I was hardly doing the conga, a tango, a jive all while singing ‘glory, glory hallelujah’ at the same time.
The choice of word was no doubt deliberate. The choice to post it likewise. And it is much more important than posting about the failure of the Labour party to have a meaningful investigation into the alleged sexual abuse of one of it's members that also surfaced today. Heigh ho.
Someone appears to have given UKIP some money. They have printed and are paying Royal Mail to deliver, in the South East at least, unaddressed door-to-door a leaflet "Brexit under threat: Here's how our voice is being betrayed", with photo of Farage with the South East MEP.
"Nigel Farage is fighting to get on with Brexit immediately. It's unacceptable that even if you believe Theresa May, Brexit may not be completed until 2021 (shock, horror!)
The liberal use of the EFD logo suggests this is being funded by UKIP's EP money.
Got one (actually two) of them through today in the post but referencing the North East instead.
Since there is no obvious electoral benefit to their delivering nationwide just before Xmas, one assumes this is intended to frighten Tory MPs as they return to their constituencies for an Xmas break...
Someone appears to have given UKIP some money. They have printed and are paying Royal Mail to deliver, in the South East at least, unaddressed door-to-door a leaflet "Brexit under threat: Here's how our voice is being betrayed", with photo of Farage with the South East MEP.
"Nigel Farage is fighting to get on with Brexit immediately. It's unacceptable that even if you believe Theresa May, Brexit may not be completed until 2021 (shock, horror!)
The liberal use of the EFD logo suggests this is being funded by UKIP's EP money.
Got one (actually two) of them through today in the post but referencing the North East instead.
Since there is no obvious electoral benefit to their delivering nationwide just before Xmas, one assumes this is intended to frighten Tory MPs as they return to their constituencies for an Xmas break...
One good thing about having a Prime Minister who is a bit less primus inter pares is that everything has to be discussed and brokered more between different groupings. Given Theresa May's obvious preference to hoard power centrally, this can only be a good thing, particularly on a project as far-reaching as Brexit where the widest possible consensus should be sought.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Intolerance of different views is certainly not limited to the Labour leadership.
No but it is not there in the other political party leaders in this country at the moment - interesting to see you being so defensive about the Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum axis.
I don’t believe I *was* defensive about the Corbyn and McDonnell. I’d say implying they are intolerant of other views is the precise opposite of being defensive of them actually - it’s being critical. Pointing out that intolerance isn’t limited to the left side of the political side isn’t really being ‘defensive’.
Which other current party leaders would you accuse?
I wouldn’t accuse other party leaders, I’d say that parts of the right are bit like the Corbynite Left though - see the likes of Dorries and Montgomerie calling for deselections, Mail and Telegraphs frontpages on the Remainer Tory MPs etc.
Why did you think I was accusing other party leaderships? Intolerance on the left/right spectrum applies to more than just party leaders.
May repeating that we're not going to be allowed a second referendum is a good way to increase the desire to hold one.
Not really. A referendum was held; a result was provided. You cannot keep asking for another because you didn't like the result.
The trick is making sure the people who voted for it like the result of the result. Can the government pull off that trick?
We know you believe the British public are terminally dumb and should not be allowed to vote but thankfully the rest of us do not share that bigoted view.
A noticeable number of R4 listeners, contacting phone-in programmes before the referendum, came out with words such as these:
It's terrifyingly complex. I don't know how to vote; it's what I elect professional politicians for. Can't they do their job?'
R4 listeners are a very varied group. But they can hardly be accused of being terminally dumb.
And why are we calling it a selfie? It patently isn't.
Because Nick R says it is?
But I don't think it's worth getting worked up about, any more than the "X was once on a platform with Y" stuff. In politics you interact with all sorts of people and you can't really run background checks on them all. I once worked on a campaign to save a local building with a chap who turned out to be an active BNP member: there are several pictures around showing us sitting together. He never mentioned it, and even in retrospect I didn't really care, as it didn't have anything to do with the conservation work.
Well, I didn’t. Given the fact that Fransen’s been in the news recently, that’s probably the reason as to why the story has been ‘dug up’ again so to speak.
And you are so happy to repeat it.
Happy? I said it was awkward (I actually only became aware of picture today) I was hardly doing the conga, a tango, a jive all while singing ‘glory, glory hallelujah’ at the same time.
The choice of word was no doubt deliberate. The choice to post it likewise. And it is much more important than posting about the failure of the Labour party to have a meaningful investigation into the alleged sexual abuse of one of it's members that also surfaced today. Heigh ho.
Yes, the choice to call it ‘awkward’ was deliberate....because the picture was awkward. I’m not quite sure how calling the picture awkward is particularly outrageous or controversial. Yes, I chose to post the tweet....I’m not quite sure how that’s particularly revelatory. I also didn’t say that it was more important than the Labour Party’s handling of sexual abuse. I commented on that story earlier on today FYI, in an earlier thread.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Is this Nick "Toenails" Robinson who has frequently been accused on here and elsewhere of perceived anti-Tory bias?
Fasial Islam is another one who gets criticised, C4 news as well - accusations of bias run across the political spectrum.
Well, I didn’t. Given the fact that Fransen’s been in the news recently, that’s probably the reason as to why the story has been ‘dug up’ again so to speak.
And you are so happy to repeat it.
Happy? I said it was awkward (I actually only became aware of picture today) I was hardly doing the conga, a tango, a jive all while singing ‘glory, glory hallelujah’ at the same time.
The choice of word was no doubt deliberate. The choice to post it likewise. And it is much more important than posting about the failure of the Labour party to have a meaningful investigation into the alleged sexual abuse of one of it's members that also surfaced today. Heigh ho.
Yes, the choice to call it ‘awkward’ was deliberate....because the picture was awkward. I’m not quite sure how calling the picture awkward is particularly outrageous or controversial. Yes, I chose to post the tweet....I’m not quite sure how that’s particularly revelatory. I also didn’t say that it was more important than the Labour Party’s handling of sexual abuse. I commented on that story earlier on today FYI, in an earlier thread.
Use of terms and words such as "Saboteurs", "Enemies of the people", *Traitors", etc is designed to elicit a certain response. Most people will nod or shake their heads. Others go further and send threats. Now and again, someone will go further still and an MP will be attacked or killed.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Is this Nick "Toenails" Robinson who has frequently been accused on here and elsewhere of perceived anti-Tory bias?
Fasial Islam is another one who gets criticised, C4 news as well - accusations of bias run across the political spectrum.
They do indeed. The left has caught up with the right in its use of bias attacks on the BBC to try to steer coverage in certain ways.
Well, I didn’t. Given the fact that Fransen’s been in the news recently, that’s probably the reason as to why the story has been ‘dug up’ again so to speak.
And you are so happy to repeat it.
Happy? I said it was awkward (I actually only became aware of picture today) I was hardly doing the conga, a tango, a jive all while singing ‘glory, glory hallelujah’ at the same time.
The choice of word was no doubt deliberate. The choice to post it likewise. And it is much more important than posting about the failure of the Labour party to have a meaningful investigation into the alleged sexual abuse of one of it's members that also surfaced today. Heigh ho.
Yes, the choice to call it ‘awkward’ was deliberate....because the picture was awkward. I’m not quite sure how calling the picture awkward is particularly outrageous or controversial. Yes, I chose to post the tweet....I’m not quite sure how that’s particularly revelatory. I also didn’t say that it was more important than the Labour Party’s handling of sexual abuse. I commented on that story earlier on today FYI, in an earlier thread.
Use of terms and words such as "Saboteurs", "Enemies of the people", *Traitors", etc is designed to elicit a certain response. Most people will nod or shake their heads. Others go further and send threats. Now and again, someone will go further still and an MP will be attacked or killed.
Not sure how she can prove a link between headlines and the threats. People who make threats really don't need the Mail or the Telegraph to provoke them. Also, what is Bercow supposed to do about it now???
Well, I didn’t. Given the fact that Fransen’s been in the news recently, that’s probably the reason as to why the story has been ‘dug up’ again so to speak.
And you are so happy to repeat it.
Happy? I said it was awkward (I actually only became aware of picture today) I was hardly doing the conga, a tango, a jive all while singing ‘glory, glory hallelujah’ at the same time.
The choice of word was no doubt deliberate. The choice to post it likewise. And it is much more important than posting about the failure of the Labour party to have a meaningful investigation into the alleged sexual abuse of one of it's members that also surfaced today. Heigh ho.
Yes, the choice to call it ‘awkward’ was deliberate....because the picture was awkward. I’m not quite sure how calling the picture awkward is particularly outrageous or controversial. Yes, I chose to post the tweet....I’m not quite sure how that’s particularly revelatory. I also didn’t say that it was more important than the Labour Party’s handling of sexual abuse. I commented on that story earlier on today FYI, in an earlier thread.
Use of terms and words such as "Saboteurs", "Enemies of the people", *Traitors", etc is designed to elicit a certain response. Most people will nod or shake their heads. Others go further and send threats. Now and again, someone will go further still and an MP will be attacked or killed.
This is what I’m trying to say to felix - that just as the Corbynite Left has done serious issues in regard to intolerance, so does parts of the right. It doesn’t really make one a massive Corbynista to say this. Sorry to hear about Soubry, hopefully the DM and the Telegraph will take note.
The original tweet(?) was clearly an attempt to smear Nick Robinson by the left. Little else to say really.
Robinson says that he didn’t know who she was (and I believe him) but if you pose in a picture with someone like Jayda Fransen you can hardly be surprised if some make judgements about that because of who she is, and there is an expectation that as a political journalist he would know about far right groups, or at least the candidates standing in the election.
I'm not surprised that some on the left would seek to smear Nick Robinson as he is perceived by them as impartial. Press freedom is not valued among the current Labour party leadership.
Is this Nick "Toenails" Robinson who has frequently been accused on here and elsewhere of perceived anti-Tory bias?
Fasial Islam is another one who gets criticised, C4 news as well - accusations of bias run across the political spectrum.
They do indeed. The left has caught up with the right in its use of bias attacks on the BBC to try to steer coverage in certain ways.
Yes, I remember there was a time when it was the right that was known for criticising the BBC. While the Labour government under Blair didn’t have the best relations with the BBC at one point (I think it was the time around the Iraq war) where it has really kicked off on the Left is from Corbyn’s election.
Yep. The Tory Right should be in favour of this. I thought they loved markets and trade.
Indeed, one of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements as Prime Minister.
It is incredible really isn't it.
And we will end up rejoining. That's if we ever leave, which I still very much doubt.
Hmm.. I think the not leaving at all is more likely than rejoining. I suppose you could make the case that we sign up to a Swiss-style deal down the line, because we realise we’re not doing well outside the single market or customs union. I doubt, if we leave, we will rejoin the EU. A condition of entry would certainly be that we wouldn’t rejoin with the opt outs we previously negotiated, meaning we probably have to go full-throttle on schengen and the adoption of the Euro. Unless there is a seismic shift in popular opinion, that doesn’t look politically sellable.
One good thing about having a Prime Minister who is a bit less primus inter pares is that everything has to be discussed and brokered more between different groupings. Given Theresa May's obvious preference to hoard power centrally, this can only be a good thing, particularly on a project as far-reaching as Brexit where the widest possible consensus should be sought.
It's as if the British people chose the best way to deliver Brexit. Not by a psycho Marxist and his Red Guards but by a committee of people who are all wrong in a different way, so might at least end up with someone happy. I think there is no good Brexit outcome but that this way might be the best.
A good read, thanks for the link. And the looming strategic problem for the Tories in a sentence:
The Conservatives have secured for themselves a predominately pro-Brexit socially conservative electorate whose wish for greater “control” puts them at odds with the views of the party’s traditional allies in big business, who hitherto have been attracted by the more laissez-faire, pro-free market, centre right stance of the Conservative party.
The trouble with that piece is that it is working on the mistaken belief that the Tories have ever been laissez-faire in social terms. They have always been socially conservative with the common drift into authoritarian. And May during her tenure as Home Secretary was the epitome of this. Once in a while they might do the right thing as with gay marriage but generally this is because they are following public opinion not driving it. The only party that has really been socially liberal are the Lib Dems. And of course they ruin it all because they are so wedded to left wing large state ideologies.
If May leads into GE 2021/2 then surely Corbyn is in Downing Street by 10pm exit poll?
I’m not taking anything for granted anymore. I thought TM would have a majority of at least 60 right now. Corbyn could easily slip up in the next 4.5 years (assuming a 2022 vote). Heck, he might not even be party leader by then. He’d be 72 at the time of the vote.
Offer time-limited immunity from prosecution to the industry (esp those who have taken the piss self-certifying building regs) in exchange for full disclosure. Audit everything.
Blow this sh*t wide open.
Create a new national building regulator to sign off everything.
Yes, I remember there was a time when it was the right that was known for criticising the BBC. While the Labour government under Blair didn’t have the best relations with the BBC at one point (I think it was the time around the Iraq war) where it has really kicked off on the Left is from Corbyn’s election.
The BBC has always had a mild liberal establishment bias, and it struggles to be fair to anyone far outside that cosy consensus, whether it's Farage or Corbyn. It does, however, try to be fair most of the time, which is more than one can say for any other British news media.
Yep. The Tory Right should be in favour of this. I thought they loved markets and trade.
Indeed, one of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements as Prime Minister.
It is incredible really isn't it.
And we will end up rejoining. That's if we ever leave, which I still very much doubt.
Hmm.. I think the not leaving at all is more likely than rejoining. I suppose you could make the case that we sign up to a Swiss-style deal down the line, because we realise we’re not doing well outside the single market or customs union. I doubt, if we leave, we will rejoin the EU. A condition of entry would certainly be that we wouldn’t rejoin with the opt outs we previously negotiated, meaning we probably have to go full-throttle on schengen and the adoption of the Euro. Unless there is a seismic shift in popular opinion, that doesn’t look politically sellable.
We tell the EU we'd like to rejoin if the terms are right, and we'll have a referendum on whether we accept them. Remember we aren't Latvia. We are a substantial economy that can bring a lot to the table. Don't talk Britain down.
I don't think anyone has posted the poll from yesterday in graph form yet. Incidentally it estimates that the churn between leavers and remainers is about 8% in both directions. The apparently stable state of opinion amongst voters may be a bit of an illusion.
Offer time-limited immunity from prosecution to the industry (esp those who have taken the piss self-certifying building regs) in exchange for full disclosure. Audit everything.
Blow this sh*t wide open.
Create a new national building regulator to sign off everything.
No more Grenfells.
I can't access the FT article (putting the headline in the post helps), but it isn't just Grenfell-style situations that are the problem. Mass new build as a whole have significant problems, at least from ME.
Fixing this (as per your suggestion) may rather increase the cost of new housing, whether private or public. That is a discussion we need to have,
Offer time-limited immunity from prosecution to the industry (esp those who have taken the piss self-certifying building regs) in exchange for full disclosure. Audit everything.
Blow this sh*t wide open.
Create a new national building regulator to sign off everything.
No more Grenfells.
I can't access the FT article (putting the headline in the post helps), but it isn't just Grenfell-style situations that are the problem. Mass new build as a whole have significant problems, at least from ME.
Fixing this (as per your suggestion) may rather increase the cost of new housing, whether private or public. That is a discussion we need to have,
Google "Post-Grenfell fire safety review prompts call for culture shift" to sidestep the paywall (may require a private browsing window/cookie deletion)
A good read, thanks for the link. And the looming strategic problem for the Tories in a sentence:
The Conservatives have secured for themselves a predominately pro-Brexit socially conservative electorate whose wish for greater “control” puts them at odds with the views of the party’s traditional allies in big business, who hitherto have been attracted by the more laissez-faire, pro-free market, centre right stance of the Conservative party.
The trouble with that piece is that it is working on the mistaken belief that the Tories have ever been laissez-faire in social terms. They have always been socially conservative with the common drift into authoritarian. And May during her tenure as Home Secretary was the epitome of this. Once in a while they might do the right thing as with gay marriage but generally this is because they are following public opinion not driving it. The only party that has really been socially liberal are the Lib Dems. And of course they ruin it all because they are so wedded to left wing large state ideologies.
Nevertheless the key point is that the Tories' traditional support base in the educated ABC1s is watching Brexit with increasing concern, whilst the pro-Brexit C1C2Ds are expecting May to deliver not only Brexit but also on the pro-fairness interventionist agenda that she promised them from the steps of No. 10.
Yes, I remember there was a time when it was the right that was known for criticising the BBC. While the Labour government under Blair didn’t have the best relations with the BBC at one point (I think it was the time around the Iraq war) where it has really kicked off on the Left is from Corbyn’s election.
I criticise the BBC. I praise the BBC.
There is an issue with some on the right criticising the BBC stupidly. There is also an issue with some on the left defending the BBC stupidly.
I mean, just try making a complaint to them, however accurate, and see the labyrinthine situation you find yourself in (including, and I jest not, a uuencoded response).
The BBC is not some great institution that cannot be criticised. But it is also one that can be praised. It'd be good if some on the right praised it occasionally, and some on the left criticised it, for the truth is much more nuanced that that.
Offer time-limited immunity from prosecution to the industry (esp those who have taken the piss self-certifying building regs) in exchange for full disclosure. Audit everything.
Blow this sh*t wide open.
Create a new national building regulator to sign off everything.
No more Grenfells.
I can't access the FT article (putting the headline in the post helps), but it isn't just Grenfell-style situations that are the problem. Mass new build as a whole have significant problems, at least from ME.
Fixing this (as per your suggestion) may rather increase the cost of new housing, whether private or public. That is a discussion we need to have,
Google "Post-Grenfell fire safety review prompts call for culture shift" to sidestep the paywall (may require a private browsing window/cookie deletion)
Thanks.
Sadly, that backs up what I've been saying on PB for years. It's a shame Lammy wasn't more vocal bout the issues earlier (and besides, I fear he's missed the point slightly).
Yep. The Tory Right should be in favour of this. I thought they loved markets and trade.
Indeed, one of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements as Prime Minister.
It is incredible really isn't it.
And we will end up rejoining. That's if we ever leave, which I still very much doubt.
Hmm.. I think the not leaving at all is more likely than rejoining. I suppose you could make the case that we sign up to a Swiss-style deal down the line, because we realise we’re not doing well outside the single market or customs union. I doubt, if we leave, we will rejoin the EU. A condition of entry would certainly be that we wouldn’t rejoin with the opt outs we previously negotiated, meaning we probably have to go full-throttle on schengen and the adoption of the Euro. Unless there is a seismic shift in popular opinion, that doesn’t look politically sellable.
We tell the EU we'd like to rejoin if the terms are right, and we'll have a referendum on whether we accept them. Remember we aren't Latvia. We are a substantial economy that can bring a lot to the table. Don't talk Britain down.
Haven't I heard this shit before ? They would not dare to do anything to...... they are punishing us.
Yes, I remember there was a time when it was the right that was known for criticising the BBC. While the Labour government under Blair didn’t have the best relations with the BBC at one point (I think it was the time around the Iraq war) where it has really kicked off on the Left is from Corbyn’s election.
The BBC has always had a mild liberal establishment bias, and it struggles to be fair to anyone far outside that cosy consensus, whether it's Farage or Corbyn. It does, however, try to be fair most of the time, which is more than one can say for any other British news media.
Indeed. It doesn't always succeed, but it tries at least. Honestly, even when something is openly partisan I struggle with it unless it at least attempts the appearance of some measure of balance.
Curious thing is the DP let it on then did not even question the fake stats.
I don’t think the Daily Politics vets the little films guests make. I wrote in about a David Starkey one which had several factual errors and basically got told they don’t check.
Yep. The Tory Right should be in favour of this. I thought they loved markets and trade.
Indeed, one of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements as Prime Minister.
It is incredible really isn't it.
And we will end up rejoining. That's if we ever leave, which I still very much doubt.
Hmm.. I think the not leaving at all is more likely than rejoining. I suppose you could make the case that we sign up to a Swiss-style deal down the line, because we realise we’re not doing well outside the single market or customs union. I doubt, if we leave, we will rejoin the EU. A condition of entry would certainly be that we wouldn’t rejoin with the opt outs we previously negotiated, meaning we probably have to go full-throttle on schengen and the adoption of the Euro. Unless there is a seismic shift in popular opinion, that doesn’t look politically sellable.
We tell the EU we'd like to rejoin if the terms are right, and we'll have a referendum on whether we accept them. Remember we aren't Latvia. We are a substantial economy that can bring a lot to the table. Don't talk Britain down.
Sorry, I don’t buy it. The risk for them is they take the awkward partner back with a risk of another messy divorce coming down the tracks. If we rejoin, it will be on their terms and their terms only.
Yep. The Tory Right should be in favour of this. I thought they loved markets and trade.
Indeed, one of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements as Prime Minister.
It is incredible really isn't it.
And we will end up rejoining. That's if we ever leave, which I still very much doubt.
Hmm.. I think the not leaving at all is more likely than rejoining. I suppose you could make the case that we sign up to a Swiss-style deal down the line, because we realise we’re not doing well outside the single market or customs union. I doubt, if we leave, we will rejoin the EU. A condition of entry would certainly be that we wouldn’t rejoin with the opt outs we previously negotiated, meaning we probably have to go full-throttle on schengen and the adoption of the Euro. Unless there is a seismic shift in popular opinion, that doesn’t look politically sellable.
We tell the EU we'd like to rejoin if the terms are right, and we'll have a referendum on whether we accept them. Remember we aren't Latvia. We are a substantial economy that can bring a lot to the table. Don't talk Britain down.
Sorry, I don’t buy it. The risk for them is they take the awkward partner back with a risk of another messy divorce coming down the tracks. If we rejoin, it will be on their terms and their terms only.
So you think they'd turn down the second biggest economy in Europe for fear of a bit of extra paperwork? And remember none of the Brexiters from the current team will have any role in this. It will be fresh faces all round.
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
I think for many people history only really began in the 20th Century. Even with the horrors of the world wars and some genocides in there, people tend to forget about how much awfulness and division there was in the past when making their hyperbolic comparisons of how fractious politics now is unprecedented. It's very nostalgic in that regard, romanticizing the past.
Defend progressive values and you’re a luvvie – formerly slang for people in theatre, transformed by the tabloids into slang for people who care about knowledge, reasoned argument and restraint.
Look, Mason is not wrong to be pointing out that political discourse has gotten even worse than normal in the past year or so, but I really don't think he is the best person to be in a position to take the high ground of people who care about knowledge, reasoned argument and restraint.
There were progressive people and conservative people, but they mostly subscribed to the groupthink of the elite.
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
I think for many people history only really began in the 20th Century. Even with the horrors of the world wars and some genocides in there, people tend to forget about how much awfulness and division there was in the past when making their hyperbolic comparisons of how fractious politics now is unprecedented. It's very nostalgic in that regard, romanticizing the past.
I think it was 4% of the population was killed during The Civil War.
For Brexit to match that we’d need circa 2,500,000 fatalities from Brexit.
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
Nah, everyone had the same elitist groupthink.
That said, I would have thought a born again marxist like Mason would be familiar with the English Civil War, some great historians of the period were marxist in their outlook.
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
I think for many people history only really began in the 20th Century. Even with the horrors of the world wars and some genocides in there, people tend to forget about how much awfulness and division there was in the past when making their hyperbolic comparisons of how fractious politics now is unprecedented. It's very nostalgic in that regard, romanticizing the past.
I think it was 4% of the population was killed during The Civil War.
For Brexit to match that we’d need circa 2,500,000 fatalities from Brexit.
A low estimate that, too, I think. Brexit has time to catch up of course.
Yep. The Tory Right should be in favour of this. I thought they loved markets and trade.
Indeed, one of Mrs Thatcher's finest achievements as Prime Minister.
It is incredible really isn't it.
And we will end up rejoining. That's if we ever leave, which I still very much doubt.
Hmm.. I think the not leaving at all is more likely than rejoining. I suppose you could make the case that we sign up to a Swiss-style deal down the line, because we realise we’re not doing well outside the single market or customs union. I doubt, if we leave, we will rejoin the EU. A condition of entry would certainly be that we wouldn’t rejoin with the opt outs we previously negotiated, meaning we probably have to go full-throttle on schengen and the adoption of the Euro. Unless there is a seismic shift in popular opinion, that doesn’t look politically sellable.
We tell the EU we'd like to rejoin if the terms are right, and we'll have a referendum on whether we accept them. Remember we aren't Latvia. We are a substantial economy that can bring a lot to the table. Don't talk Britain down.
Sorry, I don’t buy it. The risk for them is they take the awkward partner back with a risk of another messy divorce coming down the tracks. If we rejoin, it will be on their terms and their terms only.
So you think they'd turn down the second biggest economy in Europe for fear of a bit of extra paperwork? And remember none of the Brexiters from the current team will have any role in this. It will be fresh faces all round.
Defend progressive values and you’re a luvvie – formerly slang for people in theatre, transformed by the tabloids into slang for people who care about knowledge, reasoned argument and restraint.
Look, Mason is not wrong to be pointing out that political discourse has gotten even worse than normal in the past year or so, but I really don't think he is the best person to be in a position to take the high ground of people who care about knowledge, reasoned argument and restraint.
Also, like all pejoratives Luvvie does get overused, but I very much doubt it is meant to apply to those who care about knowledge, reasoned argument and restraint, but instead smug, superior people who think they and only people who think like them care about such things.
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
I think for many people history only really began in the 20th Century. Even with the horrors of the world wars and some genocides in there, people tend to forget about how much awfulness and division there was in the past when making their hyperbolic comparisons of how fractious politics now is unprecedented. It's very nostalgic in that regard, romanticizing the past.
I think it was 4% of the population was killed during The Civil War.
For Brexit to match that we’d need circa 2,500,000 fatalities from Brexit.
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
Or the Mother of all Family Squabbles (aka The War of the Roses)
Or The Anarchy .
Honourable mention for Henry Bolingbroke as well?
How about the aftermath of Magna Carta in 1215? Or the deposition of Edward II and the regime of Mortimer?
Definitely about Magna Carta.
I'm ambivalent about Edward II, the red hot poker dilutes the impact of the deposition, though it is something that has amused generations of schoolboys.
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
Or the Mother of all Family Squabbles (aka The War of the Roses)
Or The Anarchy .
Honourable mention for Henry Bolingbroke as well?
How about the aftermath of Magna Carta in 1215? Or the deposition of Edward II and the regime of Mortimer?
Definitely about Magna Carta.
I'm ambivalent about Edward II, the red hot poker dilutes the impact of the deposition, though it is something that has amused generations of schoolboys.
There was a lot of trouble around the removal of Mortimer as well though.
How about bringing in Blackadder as well:
'Gentlemen, as you know this country faces the gravest crisis since the Roman invasion.' 'No, no! What about the Viking invasion?' 'And the Norman invasion?' 'And the Swiss invasion?' 'Well, at any rate the gravest crisis for some time...'
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
Or the Mother of all Family Squabbles (aka The War of the Roses)
Or The Anarchy .
Honourable mention for Henry Bolingbroke as well?
How about the aftermath of Magna Carta in 1215? Or the deposition of Edward II and the regime of Mortimer?
Definitely about Magna Carta.
I'm ambivalent about Edward II, the red hot poker dilutes the impact of the deposition, though it is something that has amused generations of schoolboys.
There was a lot of trouble around the removal of Mortimer as well though.
Am having a brainfart, which Mortimer are we talking about?
I recall a certain level of push back from some influential athletes when Gatlin was being booed earlier in the year, on the grounds that he deserved a second change (ignoring he'd already had that), and that others have doped too (such a strong case!)
I was one who was pleased to see him being booed at the World Championships. He should never have been allowed to compete again after his first ban - let alone the second.
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
Or the Mother of all Family Squabbles (aka The War of the Roses)
Or The Anarchy .
Honourable mention for Henry Bolingbroke as well?
How about the aftermath of Magna Carta in 1215? Or the deposition of Edward II and the regime of Mortimer?
Definitely about Magna Carta.
I'm ambivalent about Edward II, the red hot poker dilutes the impact of the deposition, though it is something that has amused generations of schoolboys.
There was a lot of trouble around the removal of Mortimer as well though.
Am having a brainfart, which Mortimer are we talking about?
The one who shacked up with Isabella - wasn't he Earl of March?
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
Or the Mother of all Family Squabbles (aka The War of the Roses)
Or The Anarchy .
Honourable mention for Henry Bolingbroke as well?
How about the aftermath of Magna Carta in 1215? Or the deposition of Edward II and the regime of Mortimer?
Definitely about Magna Carta.
I'm ambivalent about Edward II, the red hot poker dilutes the impact of the deposition, though it is something that has amused generations of schoolboys.
There was a lot of trouble around the removal of Mortimer as well though.
Am having a brainfart, which Mortimer are we talking about?
Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, Isabella's lover and Edward's murderer, de facto regent 1327-1330, overthrown by Edward III and brutally executed.
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
Or the Mother of all Family Squabbles (aka The War of the Roses)
Or The Anarchy .
Honourable mention for Henry Bolingbroke as well?
How about the aftermath of Magna Carta in 1215? Or the deposition of Edward II and the regime of Mortimer?
Definitely about Magna Carta.
I'm ambivalent about Edward II, the red hot poker dilutes the impact of the deposition, though it is something that has amused generations of schoolboys.
There was a lot of trouble around the removal of Mortimer as well though.
Am having a brainfart, which Mortimer are we talking about?
Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, Isabella's lover and Edward's murderer, de facto regent 1327-1330, overthrown by Edward III and brutally executed.
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
Nah, everyone had the same elitist groupthink.
That said, I would have thought a born again marxist like Mason would be familiar with the English Civil War, some great historians of the period were marxist in their outlook.
Christopher Hill being the most notable, I would suggest.
I was one who was pleased to see him being booed at the World Championships. He should never have been allowed to compete again after his first ban - let alone the second.
I felt the same at the time as well - it was really sad to see Bolt beaten by him.
@kle4 Yep, I remember that as well. When you look at the replies to the tweet so many people are saying variants of ‘imagine my shock.’
Comments
Why shouldn't a private citizen do the polite thing and pose with another private citizen for a photograph without incurring your wrath?
https://xkcd.com/1122/
Something about challenging media narratives.
Spare me.
...
http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/18/dont-believe-story-chuck-e-cheese-bitcoin-scam-7168960/
Fake news.
"Nigel Farage is fighting to get on with Brexit immediately. It's unacceptable that even if you believe Theresa May, Brexit may not be completed until 2021 (shock, horror!)
The liberal use of the EFD logo suggests this is being funded by UKIP's EP money.
Interesting example of perception bias: the Telegraph blog confides that most Cabinet members leant towards divergence from EU standards, and the Guardian blog confides precisely the opposite. Everyone agrees that May didn't come down firmly either way, though.
Why did you think I was accusing other party leaderships? Intolerance on the left/right spectrum applies to more than just party leaders.
It's terrifyingly complex. I don't know how to vote; it's what I elect professional politicians for. Can't they do their job?'
R4 listeners are a very varied group. But they can hardly be accused of being terminally dumb.
But I don't think it's worth getting worked up about, any more than the "X was once on a platform with Y" stuff. In politics you interact with all sorts of people and you can't really run background checks on them all. I once worked on a campaign to save a local building with a chap who turned out to be an active BNP member: there are several pictures around showing us sitting together. He never mentioned it, and even in retrospect I didn't really care, as it didn't have anything to do with the conservation work.
https://vimeo.com/247411379
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/942818507137437708
The activist claimed that 21% of UK People are Disabled (widest possible definition), then that there were only 1% of disabled MPs.
Scores of MPs who are disabled were simply rubbed out.
https://twitter.com/daily_politics/status/942725483095035904
https://twitter.com/daily_politics/status/942736071762231297
Curious thing is the DP let it on then did not even question the fake stats.
Offer time-limited immunity from prosecution to the industry (esp those who have taken the piss self-certifying building regs) in exchange for full disclosure. Audit everything.
Blow this sh*t wide open.
Create a new national building regulator to sign off everything.
No more Grenfells.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/942358252179861504
Fixing this (as per your suggestion) may rather increase the cost of new housing, whether private or public. That is a discussion we need to have,
There is an issue with some on the right criticising the BBC stupidly. There is also an issue with some on the left defending the BBC stupidly.
I mean, just try making a complaint to them, however accurate, and see the labyrinthine situation you find yourself in (including, and I jest not, a uuencoded response).
The BBC is not some great institution that cannot be criticised. But it is also one that can be praised. It'd be good if some on the right praised it occasionally, and some on the left criticised it, for the truth is much more nuanced that that.
Sadly, that backs up what I've been saying on PB for years. It's a shame Lammy wasn't more vocal bout the issues earlier (and besides, I fear he's missed the point slightly).
Given one of the carriages is upside down on the road, is sad but unsurprising.
I wrote in about a David Starkey one which had several factual errors and basically got told they don’t check.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/18/the-british-elite-is-at-war-with-itself-on-a-scale-weve-never-seen-before
For starters have you never heard of The English Civil War
Defend progressive values and you’re a luvvie – formerly slang for people in theatre, transformed by the tabloids into slang for people who care about knowledge, reasoned argument and restraint.
Look, Mason is not wrong to be pointing out that political discourse has gotten even worse than normal in the past year or so, but I really don't think he is the best person to be in a position to take the high ground of people who care about knowledge, reasoned argument and restraint.
There were progressive people and conservative people, but they mostly subscribed to the groupthink of the elite.
Were they really different then?
For Brexit to match that we’d need circa 2,500,000 fatalities from Brexit.
That said, I would have thought a born again marxist like Mason would be familiar with the English Civil War, some great historians of the period were marxist in their outlook.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxQ_8xMa3u8
6% in Scotland
40% in Ireland
I'm ambivalent about Edward II, the red hot poker dilutes the impact of the deposition, though it is something that has amused generations of schoolboys.
How about bringing in Blackadder as well:
'Gentlemen, as you know this country faces the gravest crisis since the Roman invasion.'
'No, no! What about the Viking invasion?'
'And the Norman invasion?'
'And the Swiss invasion?'
'Well, at any rate the gravest crisis for some time...'
I recall a certain level of push back from some influential athletes when Gatlin was being booed earlier in the year, on the grounds that he deserved a second change (ignoring he'd already had that), and that others have doped too (such a strong case!)
Wiki entry (insert standard health warning) here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Mortimer,_1st_Earl_of_March
That's why I think it should be included.
@kle4 Yep, I remember that as well. When you look at the replies to the tweet so many people are saying variants of ‘imagine my shock.’