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  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Nigelb said:

    F1: missed this, but, along with cliches about threatening to walk, Ferrari's boss has said something else stupid (from BBC Gossip):

    "Ferrari President Sergio Marchionne also says his team will need to look into replacing Kimi Raikkonen should the Finn have another inconsistent season in 2018. (The Checkered Flag)"

    You just chose to retain him, idiot. Either back him or replace him, don't renew his contract then say "If he's as shit as last year we'll get a new driver." Oaf.

    Why should Ferrari spoil a long and glorious tradition of contempt for its drivers, Mr.D ?
    Enzo would have thoroughly approved.
    Williams tended to think that the car drove itself too - and look where they are now...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    What do our lawyers make of this case, and the questions it raises over NDAs ?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42417655

    As a decidedly non-lawyer. I'm amazed that NDAs can be used for such things. And the following seems odd:

    "They were advised that their best option was to take legal action against Weinstein. What followed eventually led to the signing of an agreement so shrouded in secrecy that Ms Perkins herself is not permitted to own a copy of the document, but can look at it under supervision."
    And people ask why women didn't speak out sooner about Weinstein...

    I can understand the use of NDAs in civil matters (though they can still be obnoxious), but their use effectively to bury evidence of alleged crimes seems to go against all principles of justice. Why does the legal system accept this, let alone encourage it ?
    I can't say I've ever signed an obnoxious NDA: they've always been rather dry, sensible documents about not revealing company tech to others without permission, and that sort of thing. This seems to be several orders of magnitude more malign.
  • So, we may have found a fundamental flaw in the EU, which needs fixing asap.

    Poland, or any other country, violating democratic norms over things like the judiciary and media, can only have serious action taken against them if all other EU countries agree. Hungary doesn't. For obvious reasons.

    So as far as I can see it only takes two countries to fall into semi-dictatorship and the EU is finished.

    I speak as a remainer. This is bad. Very bad.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/theresa-may-brexit-bind-faces-calls-condemn-anti-democratic/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    edited December 2017
    Mr. Jessop, humbug. Humbug, I tell you!

    Edited extra bit: alas, Mr. B. They need a good aerodynamicist. The chap who used to work at Mercedes (Lowe?) might be just who they need.

    Incidentally, if it is Lowe then I reserve the right to make lion and wolf references (Lowe, with an umlaut is the German for 'lion', I think).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    What do our lawyers make of this case, and the questions it raises over NDAs ?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42417655

    As a decidedly non-lawyer. I'm amazed that NDAs can be used for such things. And the following seems odd:

    "They were advised that their best option was to take legal action against Weinstein. What followed eventually led to the signing of an agreement so shrouded in secrecy that Ms Perkins herself is not permitted to own a copy of the document, but can look at it under supervision."
    And people ask why women didn't speak out sooner about Weinstein...

    I can understand the use of NDAs in civil matters (though they can still be obnoxious), but their use effectively to bury evidence of alleged crimes seems to go against all principles of justice. Why does the legal system accept this, let alone encourage it ?
    I can't say I've ever signed an obnoxious NDA: they've always been rather dry, sensible documents about not revealing company tech to others without permission, and that sort of thing. This seems to be several orders of magnitude more malign.
    I've come across them relating to personnel matters, where they have been the least worst option.
    Their use relating to criminal matters seems wholly wrong.
  • So, we may have found a fundamental flaw in the EU, which needs fixing asap.

    Poland, or any other country, violating democratic norms over things like the judiciary and media, can only have serious action taken against them if all other EU countries agree. Hungary doesn't. For obvious reasons.

    So as far as I can see it only takes two countries to fall into semi-dictatorship and the EU is finished.

    I speak as a remainer. This is bad. Very bad.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/theresa-may-brexit-bind-faces-calls-condemn-anti-democratic/

    People have been pointing out the fundamental flaws in the structure and the rules of the EU for a long time. This is nothing new.

    Either the EU morphs into a USofE where countries are stipped of a lot of their soverign power and things become centralised, or it'll lumber on not working from crisis to crisis.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    So, we may have found a fundamental flaw in the EU, which needs fixing asap.

    Poland, or any other country, violating democratic norms over things like the judiciary and media, can only have serious action taken against them if all other EU countries agree. Hungary doesn't. For obvious reasons.

    So as far as I can see it only takes two countries to fall into semi-dictatorship and the EU is finished.

    I speak as a remainer. This is bad. Very bad.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/theresa-may-brexit-bind-faces-calls-condemn-anti-democratic/

    I agree. A supposedly Sovereign nation being told how to vote by an unelected bureaucrat as a “test” of our commitment to democracy. If someone made it up you would find it hard to credit.

    Thank goodness we are leaving.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    TonyE said:

    Nigelb said:

    F1: missed this, but, along with cliches about threatening to walk, Ferrari's boss has said something else stupid (from BBC Gossip):

    "Ferrari President Sergio Marchionne also says his team will need to look into replacing Kimi Raikkonen should the Finn have another inconsistent season in 2018. (The Checkered Flag)"

    You just chose to retain him, idiot. Either back him or replace him, don't renew his contract then say "If he's as shit as last year we'll get a new driver." Oaf.

    Why should Ferrari spoil a long and glorious tradition of contempt for its drivers, Mr.D ?
    Enzo would have thoroughly approved.
    Williams tended to think that the car drove itself too - and look where they are now...
    About to pick a second pay driver for next season, reportedly.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673
    kjohnw said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/6164b140-e4f2-11e7-8b99-0191e45377ec

    Brussels is piling pressure on the UK to resolve a 300-year-old Anglo-Spanish dispute over the Rock of Gibraltar if it wants to secure a quick deal on its post-Brexit transition period.

    What dispute?

    Have they never heard of the Treaty of Utrecht?
    A tory UK government will never sell out Gibraltar to do a UK/EU trade deal. If this is how the EU want to play it, we are surely heading for no deal Brexit. A definite walk away scenario
    LOL, they would sell their grannies
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    So, we may have found a fundamental flaw in the EU, which needs fixing asap.

    Poland, or any other country, violating democratic norms over things like the judiciary and media, can only have serious action taken against them if all other EU countries agree. Hungary doesn't. For obvious reasons.

    So as far as I can see it only takes two countries to fall into semi-dictatorship and the EU is finished.

    I speak as a remainer. This is bad. Very bad.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/theresa-may-brexit-bind-faces-calls-condemn-anti-democratic/

    It's none of our business.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Good morning, everyone.

    Nice little story, which will add to the trend of red woe in the US. Be interesting to see, should he get them passed, what Trump's tax reforms do to the political landscape.

    Morning all,

    Seems highly likely Trump tax plan will pass now. Just a procedural issue to sort out now.

    God alone knows what this will do the world economy as US economy overheats.

    Never mind the drilling for oil in Artic wilderness that has been tacked on the end of the Bill.
    There yet government funding that has to be done by the end of the week. It had a provision for funding Obamacare in it that the Rep hardliners are threatening to block it over, bit hat same provision is what was required to get Collins to vote Yes on the Tax bill.
  • Pithy:

    "Theresa May, who is to campaigning what Jacob Rees-Mogg is to whippet breeding..."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/jeremy-corbyn-gambling-british-voters-want-smug-presumptuous/
  • Mr. E, sorry, meant to reply to you rather than Mr. B above.

    Mr. B, indeed. That said, the Williams performance in most ways is pretty good but they've not been aerodynamically strong for years, and that's critical.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,393
    Hurrah for the ECJ! A fine institution.
  • TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    The BoE's move on inbound passporting is what we should have done with citizens rights 18 months ago. If it gets a reciprocal agreement then great.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    edited December 2017
    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think the majority of people outside London wont actually care
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    The BoE's move on inbound passporting is what we should have done with citizens rights 18 months ago. If it gets a reciprocal agreement then great.
    It signals that whatever comes out of Brussels will be replicated here. The BoE and FCA will take each EU regulation and implement it here. With knobs on.
  • TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    Yes - we can choose to erect barriers or not. Which do you support?
  • TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    The BoE's move on inbound passporting is what we should have done with citizens rights 18 months ago. If it gets a reciprocal agreement then great.
    It signals that whatever comes out of Brussels will be replicated here. The BoE and FCA will take each EU regulation and implement it here. With knobs on.
    Of course, you understand the difference between regulations in a cross-border industry and laws impacting on the lives of every citizen.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    The BoE's move on inbound passporting is what we should have done with citizens rights 18 months ago. If it gets a reciprocal agreement then great.
    It signals that whatever comes out of Brussels will be replicated here. The BoE and FCA will take each EU regulation and implement it here. With knobs on.
    Which is what happens now.

    And the system you support.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    British Leyland is alive and well and living as JLR and Mini

    it had the huge advantage it actually employed lots of people

    people who actually paid their taxes

    why aren't you living in Geneva now ?
  • TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    British Leyland is alive and well and living as JLR and Mini

    it had the huge advantage it actually employed lots of people

    people who actually paid their taxes

    why aren't you living in Geneva now ?
    Paris is going to be where I'll be spending most of my time now.

    I think I'm going to take that job with NAB now.

    But do I really want to take a job in Australia after an Ashes whitewash?
  • Pithy:

    "Theresa May, who is to campaigning what Jacob Rees-Mogg is to whippet breeding..."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/jeremy-corbyn-gambling-british-voters-want-smug-presumptuous/

    To be fair to the Prime Minister, she was caught unawares by the election which no-one expected.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    The BoE's move on inbound passporting is what we should have done with citizens rights 18 months ago. If it gets a reciprocal agreement then great.
    It signals that whatever comes out of Brussels will be replicated here. The BoE and FCA will take each EU regulation and implement it here. With knobs on.
    Which is what happens now.

    And the system you support.
    Of course. But didn't we leave to take back control? It's the difference between theory and practice. We are theoretically able to do something, blow our brains out with a shotgun, say, but actually we are not going to do that (most sane people are not going to do that) thus proving the exercise futile.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    British Leyland is alive and well and living as JLR and Mini

    it had the huge advantage it actually employed lots of people

    people who actually paid their taxes

    why aren't you living in Geneva now ?
    Paris is going to be where I'll be spending most of my time now.

    I think I'm going to take that job with NAB now.

    But do I really want to take a job in Australia after an Ashes whitewash?
    commiserations

    Paris is a bigger dump than London

    only the Musee D'Orsay makes it interesting
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    The idea that the City will 'collapse' on Brexit is utter nonsense. Retail Banking is still regulated by nation states, corporate exists also under the new Mifid 2 regs (which we are adopting). Art 63 prevents restrictions on movement of wholesale capital, which is the City's largest activity. Many of the companies which export 'services' into the retail market already exist in some form in the EZ. Money going into the UK investment markets won't be affected, because we won't put up a barrier to it and the EU doesn't allow one.

    So why would the 'end be nigh' for the tax revenue of the City?
  • TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    What do our lawyers make of this case, and the questions it raises over NDAs ?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42417655

    As a decidedly non-lawyer. I'm amazed that NDAs can be used for such things. And the following seems odd:

    "They were advised that their best option was to take legal action against Weinstein. What followed eventually led to the signing of an agreement so shrouded in secrecy that Ms Perkins herself is not permitted to own a copy of the document, but can look at it under supervision."
    My eyebrows rather went up at that point too. I think that there’s a place for NDAs but I am not sure this is it. This seems to me to be an illegal contract which the court would probably be unwilling to uphold contra bones mores. I certainly wouldn’t fancy going to the Court of Session seeking interim orders on the basis of such a document.
    It does seem to be a system where all the power is again with the rich and powerful. We need a legal system, but it needs to be fair as well.
    I think it would be a mistake to assume that because people sign these agreements the Court will uphold them. It is not as nearly as simple as that.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    The BoE's move on inbound passporting is what we should have done with citizens rights 18 months ago. If it gets a reciprocal agreement then great.
    It signals that whatever comes out of Brussels will be replicated here. The BoE and FCA will take each EU regulation and implement it here. With knobs on.
    Which is what happens now.

    And the system you support.
    Of course. But didn't we leave to take back control? It's the difference between theory and practice. We are theoretically able to do something, blow our brains out with a shotgun, say, but actually we are not going to do that (most sane people are not going to do that) thus proving the exercise futile.
    We aren't leaving in order to change things for the sake of it.

    Taking back control allows to change things where that benefits or to maintian things where that benefits.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
    I thought the forecast was for 4600 city jobs to go which basically means none.


  • TonyE said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    The idea that the City will 'collapse' on Brexit is utter nonsense. Retail Banking is still regulated by nation states, corporate exists also under the new Mifid 2 regs (which we are adopting). Art 63 prevents restrictions on movement of wholesale capital, which is the City's largest activity. Many of the companies which export 'services' into the retail market already exist in some form in the EZ. Money going into the UK investment markets won't be affected, because we won't put up a barrier to it and the EU doesn't allow one.

    So why would the 'end be nigh' for the tax revenue of the City?
    Did I say the city will collapse? No.

    I said revenues from the Financial Services Industry will collapse.

    News just in, the Financial Services Industry =/= The City.

    We've done modelling on a FTA without a deal for Financial Services, The Canada option isn't pleasant reading.

    By losing passporting rights we'll have to transfer capital to the EU as per the regs.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited December 2017

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
    Those weren't my predictions.

    My predictions were that within 2 years of the vote it would be wanting to have your cake and eat it would be shown to be bollocks.

    I remember the grief I got for this tweet.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/722391453599723520
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited December 2017
    DavidL said:

    So, we may have found a fundamental flaw in the EU, which needs fixing asap.

    Poland, or any other country, violating democratic norms over things like the judiciary and media, can only have serious action taken against them if all other EU countries agree. Hungary doesn't. For obvious reasons.

    So as far as I can see it only takes two countries to fall into semi-dictatorship and the EU is finished.

    I speak as a remainer. This is bad. Very bad.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/theresa-may-brexit-bind-faces-calls-condemn-anti-democratic/

    I agree. A supposedly Sovereign nation being told how to vote by an unelected bureaucrat as a “test” of our commitment to democracy. If someone made it up you would find it hard to credit.

    Thank goodness we are leaving.
    The current governing party in Poland has a lead of up to 30 per cent in current polling - much the same in Hungary with even higher leads. I expect many Western European leaders would love that level of support!

    Clearly the people of Poland and Hungary don't seem overly concerned. When does their right to do what most Poles and Hungarians want get to be overridden by what EU bureaucrats and judges elected by no one think is right?

    The EU itself is only a respector of democracy when the voters do what they want!
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
    Those weren't my predictions.

    My predictions were that within 2 years of the vote it would be wanting to have your cake and eat it would be shown to be bollocks.

    I remember the grief I got for this tweet.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/722391453599723520
    You did worship at the altar of George O though, a man looking rather discredited now given his predictions of financial Armageddon.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    TonyE said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    The idea that the City will 'collapse' on Brexit is utter nonsense. Retail Banking is still regulated by nation states, corporate exists also under the new Mifid 2 regs (which we are adopting). Art 63 prevents restrictions on movement of wholesale capital, which is the City's largest activity. Many of the companies which export 'services' into the retail market already exist in some form in the EZ. Money going into the UK investment markets won't be affected, because we won't put up a barrier to it and the EU doesn't allow one.

    So why would the 'end be nigh' for the tax revenue of the City?
    The main reason that the City won't be particularly impacted by Brexit is because a large proportion of financial transactions that take place there have no relationship to business or trade at all. Most of this stuff is simply speculation. 95% plus of forex transactions are speculative and totally unrelated to trade - which is why the currencies do not appear to have much relation to what is going on in the real economy. Most derivative transactions have no relation to any real business need by definition. The City is to a large extent a giant casino. It will happily carry on mostly as before.

    Financial services are a different group. TSE is right on this one although I don't believe that they will be heavily impacted. If you want a service you can always buy it from the place it is offered. What, for example, is to stop UK insurers offering insurance to EU companies written in the UK whether the EU likes it or not?
  • TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
    I thought the forecast was for 4600 city jobs to go which basically means none.


    I think that would be under 1%

    This was my favourite doom and disaster prediction:

    ' If you perchance thought that your London banking job would be safe with Britain outside the European Union, you were seemingly wrong. Consultants working for leading strategy firms in London say banks have activated their contingency plans and that the London job cuts are about to come thick and fast.

    “You’re looking at anything from 50,000 to 70,000 London finance jobs being moved overseas in the next 12 months,” predicts one consultant working with one of the top finance strategy firms in the City. “Jobs are going to be cut, and those cuts are going to start next week.” '

    https://news.efinancialcareers.com/uk-en/248265/london-banking-redundancies-brexit/

    There is quite a difference between the frothing about potential future job losses in the City and the lack of interest in actual banking job losses in the present as hundreds more branches close around the country.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    The BoE's move on inbound passporting is what we should have done with citizens rights 18 months ago. If it gets a reciprocal agreement then great.
    It signals that whatever comes out of Brussels will be replicated here. The BoE and FCA will take each EU regulation and implement it here. With knobs on.
    Which is what happens now.

    And the system you support.
    Of course. But didn't we leave to take back control? It's the difference between theory and practice. We are theoretically able to do something, blow our brains out with a shotgun, say, but actually we are not going to do that (most sane people are not going to do that) thus proving the exercise futile.
    We aren't leaving in order to change things for the sake of it.

    Taking back control allows to change things where that benefits or to maintian things where that benefits.
    Exactly and my guess is that more things than people imagine won't change because the system currently benefits us. As I said, futile.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    TonyE said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    The idea that the City will 'collapse' on Brexit is utter nonsense. Retail Banking is still regulated by nation states, corporate exists also under the new Mifid 2 regs (which we are adopting). Art 63 prevents restrictions on movement of wholesale capital, which is the City's largest activity. Many of the companies which export 'services' into the retail market already exist in some form in the EZ. Money going into the UK investment markets won't be affected, because we won't put up a barrier to it and the EU doesn't allow one.

    So why would the 'end be nigh' for the tax revenue of the City?
    Did I say the city will collapse? No.

    I said revenues from the Financial Services Industry will collapse.

    News just in, the Financial Services Industry =/= The City.

    We've done modelling on a FTA without a deal for Financial Services, The Canada option isn't pleasant reading.

    By losing passporting rights we'll have to transfer capital to the EU as per the regs.
    so why do you think non finance people will care ?

    you sat back when their jobs were going down the pan and egged on the "new economy" of spin and spivs

    and despite all the threats youre still here, still earning money and maybe even paying taxes
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited December 2017

    TonyE said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    The idea that the City will 'collapse' on Brexit is utter nonsense. Retail Banking is still regulated by nation states, corporate exists also under the new Mifid 2 regs (which we are adopting). Art 63 prevents restrictions on movement of wholesale capital, which is the City's largest activity. Many of the companies which export 'services' into the retail market already exist in some form in the EZ. Money going into the UK investment markets won't be affected, because we won't put up a barrier to it and the EU doesn't allow one.

    So why would the 'end be nigh' for the tax revenue of the City?
    Did I say the city will collapse? No.

    I said revenues from the Financial Services Industry will collapse.

    News just in, the Financial Services Industry =/= The City.

    We've done modelling on a FTA without a deal for Financial Services, The Canada option isn't pleasant reading.

    By losing passporting rights we'll have to transfer capital to the EU as per the regs.
    so why do you think non finance people will care ?

    you sat back when their jobs were going down the pan and egged on the "new economy" of spin and spivs

    and despite all the threats youre still here, still earning money and maybe even paying taxes
    Because the Financial Services Industry is the largest contributor to the Exchequer.

    Try funding the NHS or tax credits without us.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
    Those weren't my predictions.

    My predictions were that within 2 years of the vote it would be wanting to have your cake and eat it would be shown to be bollocks.

    I remember the grief I got for this tweet.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/722391453599723520
    sorry, I thought you were simply updating us on your domestic arrangements
  • It's great to get reassurances from those who told us that the EU would be desperate for a deal and that we hold all the negotiating cards that Brexit will have little to no impact on the City and the huge amounts of revenue that it generates for the UK exchequer.

    I suspect that is correct, because we are going to have the softest and fluffiest of departures.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited December 2017

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
    Those weren't my predictions.

    My predictions were that within 2 years of the vote it would be wanting to have your cake and eat it would be shown to be bollocks.

    I remember the grief I got for this tweet.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/722391453599723520
    sorry, I thought you were simply updating us on your domestic arrangements
    The wife might also enjoy and benefit from the dinner - and maybe even enjoy the other if she gets reciprocal benefits in return! And you don't of course need to be married to have dinner or relations.

    She might get the house in full as part of the deal - even though hubby paid for most of it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,741
    malcolmg said:

    kjohnw said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/6164b140-e4f2-11e7-8b99-0191e45377ec

    Brussels is piling pressure on the UK to resolve a 300-year-old Anglo-Spanish dispute over the Rock of Gibraltar if it wants to secure a quick deal on its post-Brexit transition period.

    What dispute?

    Have they never heard of the Treaty of Utrecht?
    A tory UK government will never sell out Gibraltar to do a UK/EU trade deal. If this is how the EU want to play it, we are surely heading for no deal Brexit. A definite walk away scenario
    LOL, they would sell their grannies
    As Private Walker said, there's no market for them.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    The BoE's move on inbound passporting is what we should have done with citizens rights 18 months ago. If it gets a reciprocal agreement then great.
    It signals that whatever comes out of Brussels will be replicated here. The BoE and FCA will take each EU regulation and implement it here. With knobs on.
    Which is what happens now.

    And the system you support.
    Of course. But didn't we leave to take back control? It's the difference between theory and practice. We are theoretically able to do something, blow our brains out with a shotgun, say, but actually we are not going to do that (most sane people are not going to do that) thus proving the exercise futile.
    We aren't leaving in order to change things for the sake of it.

    Taking back control allows to change things where that benefits or to maintian things where that benefits.
    Exactly and my guess is that more things than people imagine won't change because the system currently benefits us. As I said, futile.
    That's my feeling as well. It is always very conspicuous that, despite all the talk of taking back control, when leavers are asked what exactly it is that they wish to change about our current regulatory environment, they struggle to come up with anything very much.

    The biggest advantage is probably being able to use the farming subsidy in a more constructive way - as Gove has proposed - redirecting them toward smaller and more environmentally worthwhile farming practice. But that will depend on the Tories being courageous enough to take a lot of money away from some large and powerful landowners - I am not holding my breath,
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    The BoE's move on inbound passporting is what we should have done with citizens rights 18 months ago. If it gets a reciprocal agreement then great.
    It signals that whatever comes out of Brussels will be replicated here. The BoE and FCA will take each EU regulation and implement it here. With knobs on.
    Which is what happens now.

    And the system you support.
    Of course. But didn't we leave to take back control? It's the difference between theory and practice. We are theoretically able to do something, blow our brains out with a shotgun, say, but actually we are not going to do that (most sane people are not going to do that) thus proving the exercise futile.
    We aren't leaving in order to change things for the sake of it.

    Taking back control allows to change things where that benefits or to maintian things where that benefits.
    Exactly and my guess is that more things than people imagine won't change because the system currently benefits us. As I said, futile.
    you keep missing the point

    there is no "us" in this

    it benefits some and disadvantages others
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    It's great to get reassurances from those who told us that the EU would be desperate for a deal and that we hold all the negotiating cards that Brexit will have little to no impact on the City and the huge amounts of revenue that it generates for the UK exchequer.

    I suspect that is correct, because we are going to have the softest and fluffiest of departures.

    so now you don't want a soft Brexit ?
  • ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    kjohnw said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/6164b140-e4f2-11e7-8b99-0191e45377ec

    Brussels is piling pressure on the UK to resolve a 300-year-old Anglo-Spanish dispute over the Rock of Gibraltar if it wants to secure a quick deal on its post-Brexit transition period.

    What dispute?

    Have they never heard of the Treaty of Utrecht?
    A tory UK government will never sell out Gibraltar to do a UK/EU trade deal. If this is how the EU want to play it, we are surely heading for no deal Brexit. A definite walk away scenario
    LOL, they would sell their grannies
    As Private Walker said, there's no market for them.
    You've never heard of grab a granny nights?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,741

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    kjohnw said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/6164b140-e4f2-11e7-8b99-0191e45377ec

    Brussels is piling pressure on the UK to resolve a 300-year-old Anglo-Spanish dispute over the Rock of Gibraltar if it wants to secure a quick deal on its post-Brexit transition period.

    What dispute?

    Have they never heard of the Treaty of Utrecht?
    A tory UK government will never sell out Gibraltar to do a UK/EU trade deal. If this is how the EU want to play it, we are surely heading for no deal Brexit. A definite walk away scenario
    LOL, they would sell their grannies
    As Private Walker said, there's no market for them.
    You've never heard of grab a granny nights?
    Mr Eagles, surely a good Muslim boy doesn't know about those?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    TonyE said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    The idea that the City will 'collapse' on Brexit is utter nonsense. Retail Banking is still regulated by nation states, corporate exists also under the new Mifid 2 regs (which we are adopting). Art 63 prevents restrictions on movement of wholesale capital, which is the City's largest activity. Many of the companies which export 'services' into the retail market already exist in some form in the EZ. Money going into the UK investment markets won't be affected, because we won't put up a barrier to it and the EU doesn't allow one.

    So why would the 'end be nigh' for the tax revenue of the City?
    Did I say the city will collapse? No.

    I said revenues from the Financial Services Industry will collapse.

    News just in, the Financial Services Industry =/= The City.

    We've done modelling on a FTA without a deal for Financial Services, The Canada option isn't pleasant reading.

    By losing passporting rights we'll have to transfer capital to the EU as per the regs.
    so why do you think non finance people will care ?

    you sat back when their jobs were going down the pan and egged on the "new economy" of spin and spivs

    and despite all the threats youre still here, still earning money and maybe even paying taxes
    Because the Financial Services Industry is the largest contributor to the Exchequer.

    Try funding the NHS or tax credits without us.
    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    British Leyland is alive and well and living as JLR and Mini

    it had the huge advantage it actually employed lots of people

    people who actually paid their taxes

    why aren't you living in Geneva now ?
    Paris is going to be where I'll be spending most of my time now.

    I think I'm going to take that job with NAB now.

    But do I really want to take a job in Australia after an Ashes whitewash?
    Never mind, you can join what appears to be a populous club of PB'ers living beyond the reach of Brexit who love posting here telling everyone what "we" should and shouldn't be doing......
  • It's great to get reassurances from those who told us that the EU would be desperate for a deal and that we hold all the negotiating cards that Brexit will have little to no impact on the City and the huge amounts of revenue that it generates for the UK exchequer.

    I suspect that is correct, because we are going to have the softest and fluffiest of departures.

    so now you don't want a soft Brexit ?

    No, I'm all for one. It's not optimal, but it's better than the swivel-eyed alternative. It's becoming clearer that not much is going to change.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    kjohnw said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/6164b140-e4f2-11e7-8b99-0191e45377ec

    Brussels is piling pressure on the UK to resolve a 300-year-old Anglo-Spanish dispute over the Rock of Gibraltar if it wants to secure a quick deal on its post-Brexit transition period.

    What dispute?

    Have they never heard of the Treaty of Utrecht?
    A tory UK government will never sell out Gibraltar to do a UK/EU trade deal. If this is how the EU want to play it, we are surely heading for no deal Brexit. A definite walk away scenario
    LOL, they would sell their grannies
    As Private Walker said, there's no market for them.
    You've never heard of grab a granny nights?
    Mr Eagles, surely a good Muslim boy doesn't know about those?
    I only knew about them when

    1) South Yorkshire produced the country's youngest grandmother at 26, it came up in that context.

    2) Prince Harry was involved in 'Grab A Granny'
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    It's great to get reassurances from those who told us that the EU would be desperate for a deal and that we hold all the negotiating cards that Brexit will have little to no impact on the City and the huge amounts of revenue that it generates for the UK exchequer.

    I suspect that is correct, because we are going to have the softest and fluffiest of departures.

    so now you don't want a soft Brexit ?

    No, I'm all for one. It's not optimal, but it's better than the swivel-eyed alternative. It's becoming clearer that not much is going to change.
    that was going so well until you used swivel eyed

    do your eyes swivel ?

  • only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    The BoE's move on inbound passporting is what we should have done with citizens rights 18 months ago. If it gets a reciprocal agreement then great.
    It signals that whatever comes out of Brussels will be replicated here. The BoE and FCA will take each EU regulation and implement it here. With knobs on.
    Which is what happens now.

    And the system you support.
    Of course. But didn't we leave to take back control? It's the difference between theory and practice. We are theoretically able to do something, blow our brains out with a shotgun, say, but actually we are not going to do that (most sane people are not going to do that) thus proving the exercise futile.
    We aren't leaving in order to change things for the sake of it.

    Taking back control allows to change things where that benefits or to maintian things where that benefits.
    Exactly and my guess is that more things than people imagine won't change because the system currently benefits us. As I said, futile.
    That's my feeling as well. It is always very conspicuous that, despite all the talk of taking back control, when leavers are asked what exactly it is that they wish to change about our current regulatory environment, they struggle to come up with anything very much.

    The biggest advantage is probably being able to use the farming subsidy in a more constructive way - as Gove has proposed - redirecting them toward smaller and more environmentally worthwhile farming practice. But that will depend on the Tories being courageous enough to take a lot of money away from some large and powerful landowners - I am not holding my breath,
    I expect most people aren't that interested directly in the bulk of our regulatory environment and the associated rules and are quite happy with most EU laws. The principle was more who got to decide what they were and who could change them if we didn't like one or more - people we elect directly or people we don't.

    If a dictator developed regulations that were OK - would that be OK?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited December 2017
    Prince Harry and Grab A Granny

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Po2LmTKApg
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    this simply says you cant do maths

  • TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
    Those weren't my predictions.

    My predictions were that within 2 years of the vote it would be wanting to have your cake and eat it would be shown to be bollocks.

    I remember the grief I got for this tweet.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/722391453599723520
    So George Osborne's biggest fan didn't believe his predictions ?

    And if we're looking at comments from the dim and distant:

    ' The ScreamingEagles said:

    Observation at work as trading in RBS and Barclays shares are suspended

    In hindsight Dave and George didn't go hard enough on the economic consequences of a Leave vote. '

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/27/cameron-is-going-boris-is-in-hiding-and-labour-faces-civil-war-so-who-will-lead-britain/#vanilla-comments

    We were told doom and disaster would befall us upon a Leave vote and when it didn't happen we were told that it would when A50 was triggered and when it didn't happen we were told than it would by Christmas.

    For that matter we were told that doom and disaster would happen if the UK didn't join the Euro and before that if the UK left the ERM.

    When the doom and disaster predictions have such a record of failure why should we believe the latest incarnation ?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    'Still ahead on net contributions' - of course this doesn't recognise the systemic impact on our economy that a decade of poor banking practise has wrought.

    If I were a banker I'd think that a period of silence would be welcome.
  • TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
    Those weren't my predictions.

    My predictions were that within 2 years of the vote it would be wanting to have your cake and eat it would be shown to be bollocks.

    I remember the grief I got for this tweet.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/722391453599723520
    So George Osborne's biggest fan didn't believe his predictions ?

    And if we're looking at comments from the dim and distant:

    ' The ScreamingEagles said:

    Observation at work as trading in RBS and Barclays shares are suspended

    In hindsight Dave and George didn't go hard enough on the economic consequences of a Leave vote. '

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/27/cameron-is-going-boris-is-in-hiding-and-labour-faces-civil-war-so-who-will-lead-britain/#vanilla-comments

    We were told doom and disaster would befall us upon a Leave vote and when it didn't happen we were told that it would when A50 was triggered and when it didn't happen we were told than it would by Christmas.

    For that matter we were told that doom and disaster would happen if the UK didn't join the Euro and before that if the UK left the ERM.

    When the doom and disaster predictions have such a record of failure why should we believe the latest incarnation ?
    Just quoting someone else, RBS and Barclays having their shares suspended was pretty big news in this part of the world.
  • DavidL said:

    So, we may have found a fundamental flaw in the EU, which needs fixing asap.

    Poland, or any other country, violating democratic norms over things like the judiciary and media, can only have serious action taken against them if all other EU countries agree. Hungary doesn't. For obvious reasons.

    So as far as I can see it only takes two countries to fall into semi-dictatorship and the EU is finished.

    I speak as a remainer. This is bad. Very bad.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/19/theresa-may-brexit-bind-faces-calls-condemn-anti-democratic/

    I agree. A supposedly Sovereign nation being told how to vote by an unelected bureaucrat as a “test” of our commitment to democracy. If someone made it up you would find it hard to credit.

    Thank goodness we are leaving.
    +1
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited December 2017


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    this simply says you cant do maths

    In 2015-16, the banking sector alone contributed £24.4 billion to UK tax receipts in corporation tax, income tax, national insurance and through the bank levy.

    In 2016, financial and insurance services contributed £124.2 billion in gross value added (GVA) to the UK economy, 7.2% of the UK’s total GVA.

    There are over one million jobs in the financial and insurance sector (3.1% of all UK jobs).
  • TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
    Those weren't my predictions.

    My predictions were that within 2 years of the vote it would be wanting to have your cake and eat it would be shown to be bollocks.

    I remember the grief I got for this tweet.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/722391453599723520
    So George Osborne's biggest fan didn't believe his predictions ?

    And if we're looking at comments from the dim and distant:

    ' The ScreamingEagles said:

    Observation at work as trading in RBS and Barclays shares are suspended

    In hindsight Dave and George didn't go hard enough on the economic consequences of a Leave vote. '

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/27/cameron-is-going-boris-is-in-hiding-and-labour-faces-civil-war-so-who-will-lead-britain/#vanilla-comments

    We were told doom and disaster would befall us upon a Leave vote and when it didn't happen we were told that it would when A50 was triggered and when it didn't happen we were told than it would by Christmas.

    For that matter we were told that doom and disaster would happen if the UK didn't join the Euro and before that if the UK left the ERM.

    When the doom and disaster predictions have such a record of failure why should we believe the latest incarnation ?
    And the doom and disaster predictions have failed in so many other areas. As examples, and I'm sure there will be many others:

    Oil hasn't run out
    There was no nuclear war
    A new ice age or global warming hasn't made the world uninhabitable
    The birds, bees, oceans and rain forests haven't all died from pollution
    The millenium bug didn't cause the world to shut down
    We didn't all die from AIDS, CJD, ebola or bird flu
    The gazillions of finacial derivatives didn't destroy the economy in 2008

    And on the cheery note that things are never as bad as they are predicted I'll wish you a good morning.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,741


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    I thought it was ten that were either rescued or forced to be taken over:

    RBS
    HBOS (autocorrect tried to make that 'hobos')
    Lloyds
    Bradford and Bingley
    Northern Rock
    Dunfermline
    Derbyshire
    Cheshire
    Alliance and Leicester
    Chesham

    Plus Barclays had to raise outside capital.
  • ydoethur said:


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    I thought it was ten that were either rescued or forced to be taken over:

    RBS
    HBOS (autocorrect tried to make that 'hobos')
    Lloyds
    Bradford and Bingley
    Northern Rock
    Dunfermline
    Derbyshire
    Cheshire
    Alliance and Leicester
    Chesham

    Plus Barclays had to raise outside capital.
    You're double counting there.

    HBOS and Lloyds were the same event.

    Lloyds TSB were pretty strong until the government bypassed the regs for them to take on HBOS.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    this simply says you cant do maths

    In 2015-16, the banking sector alone contributed £24.4 billion to UK tax receipts in corporation tax, income tax, national insurance and through the bank levy.

    In 2016, financial and insurance services contributed £124.2 billion in gross value added (GVA) to the UK economy, 7.2% of the UK’s total GVA.

    There are over one million jobs in the financial and insurance sector (3.1% of all UK jobs).
    chortle

    but needed a taxpayer guarantee against their activities of £500 bn ( down from £1+trn )

    which other businesses get taxpayer support to this level ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,741
    edited December 2017

    ydoethur said:


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    I thought it was ten that were either rescued or forced to be taken over:

    RBS
    HBOS (autocorrect tried to make that 'hobos')
    Lloyds
    Bradford and Bingley
    Northern Rock
    Dunfermline
    Derbyshire
    Cheshire
    Alliance and Leicester
    Chesham

    Plus Barclays had to raise outside capital.
    You're double counting there.

    HBOS and Lloyds were the same event.

    Lloyds TSB were pretty strong until the government bypassed the regs for them to take on HBOS.
    Alistair Darling said in his memoirs that even without HBOS they would still have needed a capital injection. Even allowing for some bias and for the possibility they might have raised it elsewhere, the fact is that the capital injections were made before the takeover was finalised - there was a move by HBOS directors to call it off afterwards.

    That doesn't alter the fact that the forced merger of Lloyds TSB and HBOS was the most unwise financial transaction since Didius Julianus purchased the Roman Empire from the Praetorian Guard, but it does mean that Lloyds can be left in my list.

  • only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    this simply says you cant do maths

    In 2015-16, the banking sector alone contributed £24.4 billion to UK tax receipts in corporation tax, income tax, national insurance and through the bank levy.

    In 2016, financial and insurance services contributed £124.2 billion in gross value added (GVA) to the UK economy, 7.2% of the UK’s total GVA.

    There are over one million jobs in the financial and insurance sector (3.1% of all UK jobs).
    chortle

    but needed a taxpayer guarantee against their activities of £500 bn ( down from £1+trn )

    which other businesses get taxpayer support to this level ?
    The DUP from Theresa and the RHI?

    The guarantee was an investment, it helped underpin our economy.
  • ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    kjohnw said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/6164b140-e4f2-11e7-8b99-0191e45377ec

    Brussels is piling pressure on the UK to resolve a 300-year-old Anglo-Spanish dispute over the Rock of Gibraltar if it wants to secure a quick deal on its post-Brexit transition period.

    What dispute?

    Have they never heard of the Treaty of Utrecht?
    A tory UK government will never sell out Gibraltar to do a UK/EU trade deal. If this is how the EU want to play it, we are surely heading for no deal Brexit. A definite walk away scenario
    LOL, they would sell their grannies
    As Private Walker said, there's no market for them.
    You've never heard of grab a granny nights?
    I may have the wrong end of the stick here but my understanding was that they're still not for sale - just rent.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    ydoethur said:


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    I thought it was ten that were either rescued or forced to be taken over:

    RBS
    HBOS (autocorrect tried to make that 'hobos')
    Lloyds
    Bradford and Bingley
    Northern Rock
    Dunfermline
    Derbyshire
    Cheshire
    Alliance and Leicester
    Chesham

    Plus Barclays had to raise outside capital.
    You're double counting there.

    HBOS and Lloyds were the same event.

    Lloyds TSB were pretty strong until the government bypassed the regs for them to take on HBOS.
    You may be right about the revenues which financial services bring in. But, as I pointed out earlier this year (http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/01/20/cyclefree-asks-are-banks-the-new-unions/) no-one likes being beholden to a group which arrogantly thinks that their interests should predominate because of what might happen if they exercise their muscle, whether that is withdrawal of labour or withdrawal of jobs/revenues.

    A period of humility from a sector which has not, for all its cleverness and contributions, exactly covered itself in glory in recent years might be welcome.

    For a sector which has a lot of very clever people in it, it has a tin ear for how it comes across to the rest of the population and is very poor indeed at striking the right note in its PR. It needs far better communicators than it currently has.
  • ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    kjohnw said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/6164b140-e4f2-11e7-8b99-0191e45377ec

    Brussels is piling pressure on the UK to resolve a 300-year-old Anglo-Spanish dispute over the Rock of Gibraltar if it wants to secure a quick deal on its post-Brexit transition period.

    What dispute?

    Have they never heard of the Treaty of Utrecht?
    A tory UK government will never sell out Gibraltar to do a UK/EU trade deal. If this is how the EU want to play it, we are surely heading for no deal Brexit. A definite walk away scenario
    LOL, they would sell their grannies
    As Private Walker said, there's no market for them.
    You've never heard of grab a granny nights?
    I may have the wrong end of the stick here but my understanding was that they're still not for sale - just rent.
    Often renting out is more profitable than a sale.

    Yes, I'm wearing my landlord's hat here.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,741

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    kjohnw said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/6164b140-e4f2-11e7-8b99-0191e45377ec

    Brussels is piling pressure on the UK to resolve a 300-year-old Anglo-Spanish dispute over the Rock of Gibraltar if it wants to secure a quick deal on its post-Brexit transition period.

    What dispute?

    Have they never heard of the Treaty of Utrecht?
    A tory UK government will never sell out Gibraltar to do a UK/EU trade deal. If this is how the EU want to play it, we are surely heading for no deal Brexit. A definite walk away scenario
    LOL, they would sell their grannies
    As Private Walker said, there's no market for them.
    You've never heard of grab a granny nights?
    I may have the wrong end of the stick here but my understanding was that they're still not for sale - just rent.
    Often renting out is more profitable than a sale.

    Yes, I'm wearing my landlord's hat here.
    Never heard it called that before...
  • It's great to get reassurances from those who told us that the EU would be desperate for a deal and that we hold all the negotiating cards that Brexit will have little to no impact on the City and the huge amounts of revenue that it generates for the UK exchequer.

    I suspect that is correct, because we are going to have the softest and fluffiest of departures.

    so now you don't want a soft Brexit ?

    No, I'm all for one. It's not optimal, but it's better than the swivel-eyed alternative. It's becoming clearer that not much is going to change.
    that was going so well until you used swivel eyed

    do your eyes swivel ?

    Nope, but then I have never claimed that the UK holds all the cards in the Brexit negotiations or that the EU will be desperate to do a deal or that we should just walk out without a deal. I left that to those whose eyes do swivel!!

    As a member of the UK-hating metropolitan elite, I sometimes use metaphors. I assume that such treachery will soon be outlawed, so I am making the most of it while I can.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    kjohnw said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/6164b140-e4f2-11e7-8b99-0191e45377ec

    Brussels is piling pressure on the UK to resolve a 300-year-old Anglo-Spanish dispute over the Rock of Gibraltar if it wants to secure a quick deal on its post-Brexit transition period.

    What dispute?

    Have they never heard of the Treaty of Utrecht?
    A tory UK government will never sell out Gibraltar to do a UK/EU trade deal. If this is how the EU want to play it, we are surely heading for no deal Brexit. A definite walk away scenario
    LOL, they would sell their grannies
    As Private Walker said, there's no market for them.
    You've never heard of grab a granny nights?
    I may have the wrong end of the stick here but my understanding was that they're still not for sale - just rent.
    Often renting out is more profitable than a sale.

    Yes, I'm wearing my landlord's hat here.
    You rent out grannies?

    That explains a lot.

    :)
  • Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    I thought it was ten that were either rescued or forced to be taken over:

    RBS
    HBOS (autocorrect tried to make that 'hobos')
    Lloyds
    Bradford and Bingley
    Northern Rock
    Dunfermline
    Derbyshire
    Cheshire
    Alliance and Leicester
    Chesham

    Plus Barclays had to raise outside capital.
    You're double counting there.

    HBOS and Lloyds were the same event.

    Lloyds TSB were pretty strong until the government bypassed the regs for them to take on HBOS.
    You may be right about the revenues which financial services bring in. But, as I pointed out earlier this year (http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/01/20/cyclefree-asks-are-banks-the-new-unions/) no-one likes being beholden to a group which arrogantly thinks that their interests should predominate because of what might happen if they exercise their muscle, whether that is withdrawal of labour or withdrawal of jobs/revenues.

    A period of humility from a sector which has not, for all its cleverness and contributions, exactly covered itself in glory in recent years might be welcome.

    For a sector which has a lot of very clever people in it, it has a tin ear for how it comes across to the rest of the population and is very poor indeed at striking the right note in its PR. It needs far better communicators than it currently has.
    Humility from bankers? I fear you're in for a long wait.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    this simply says you cant do maths

    In 2015-16, the banking sector alone contributed £24.4 billion to UK tax receipts in corporation tax, income tax, national insurance and through the bank levy.

    In 2016, financial and insurance services contributed £124.2 billion in gross value added (GVA) to the UK economy, 7.2% of the UK’s total GVA.

    There are over one million jobs in the financial and insurance sector (3.1% of all UK jobs).
    chortle

    but needed a taxpayer guarantee against their activities of £500 bn ( down from £1+trn )

    which other businesses get taxpayer support to this level ?
    The DUP from Theresa and the RHI?

    The guarantee was an investment, it helped underpin our economy.
    any industry could advance the same argument

    how much of your "profits" were from the proceeds of illegal activities ?

    and why do you think the taxpayer should be on the hook for these ?
  • NEW THREAD

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Uh oh, this might be the beginning of a trend.

    Met to review all ongoing rape cases after second trial collapses

    Alleged child rapist cleared after non-disclosure of material from police was discovered, leading to a review of all cases

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/19/met-to-review-all-ongoing-cases-after-second-trial-collapses

    I blame the DPP, she's put so much pressure on the police to secure convictions of rape that they've begun to take shortcuts or, if one wants to paint a more sinister picture, witholding evidence they know will cause their case to fall apart.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    British Leyland is alive and well and living as JLR and Mini

    it had the huge advantage it actually employed lots of people

    people who actually paid their taxes

    why aren't you living in Geneva now ?
    Paris is going to be where I'll be spending most of my time now.

    I think I'm going to take that job with NAB now.

    But do I really want to take a job in Australia after an Ashes whitewash?
    commiserations

    Paris is a bigger dump than London

    only the Musee D'Orsay makes it interesting
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musée_Jacquemart-André

    If you haven't discovered it, you should make time you are next in Paris. Human scale with a fantastic collection (it's like Kenwood or the Frick).

    Sparked my love for Nattier's work
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:


    only in your head

    which got the bigger bailout ?

    British Leyland+ shipbuilding+ mining + British Rail

    or

    The UK financial sector


    Even with the bailouts we're still ahead on net contributions to the Treasury.

    You really shouldn't let one or two bad apples that went mammary glands up cloud you on the wider industry.
    I thought it was ten that were either rescued or forced to be taken over:

    RBS
    HBOS (autocorrect tried to make that 'hobos')
    Lloyds
    Bradford and Bingley
    Northern Rock
    Dunfermline
    Derbyshire
    Cheshire
    Alliance and Leicester
    Chesham

    Plus Barclays had to raise outside capital.
    You're double counting there.

    HBOS and Lloyds were the same event.

    Lloyds TSB were pretty strong until the government bypassed the regs for them to take on HBOS.
    Alistair Darling said in his memoirs that even without HBOS they would still have needed a capital injection. Even allowing for some bias and for the possibility they might have raised it elsewhere, the fact is that the capital injections were made before the takeover was finalised - there was a move by HBOS directors to call it off afterwards.

    That doesn't alter the fact that the forced merger of Lloyds TSB and HBOS was the most unwise financial transaction since Didius Julianus purchased the Roman Empire from the Praetorian Guard, but it does mean that Lloyds can be left in my list.
    What forced merger? Lloyds wanted to do the deal and lobbied the government to let it go ahead. It wasn't the government applying the thumb screws.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,673

    TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    British Leyland is alive and well and living as JLR and Mini

    it had the huge advantage it actually employed lots of people

    people who actually paid their taxes

    why aren't you living in Geneva now ?
    maybe because he is a Fantasist, he will stay in his bedsit in nowheresville and whine ad nauseum
  • TOPPING said:

    The BoE’s move on inbound passporting should illustrate to those sovereignty-seekers just what kind of control we will get post-Brexit and who will be doing the controlling.

    I should think he majority of people outside London wont actually care
    They'll care when the tax revenues from Financial Services Industry collapses and alternatives will be the sort of tax cuts and welfare cuts that'll give me the horn.

    Who's gonna step up and fill that fall in taxes?

    British Leyland?
    You'll be telling us next that there will be a Punishment Budget.

    We heard this line 18 months ago - if Leave wins the City will move to Frankfurt and tax revenues will collapse.

    It didn't happen.
    Those weren't my predictions.

    My predictions were that within 2 years of the vote it would be wanting to have your cake and eat it would be shown to be bollocks.

    I remember the grief I got for this tweet.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/722391453599723520
    So George Osborne's biggest fan didn't believe his predictions ?

    And if we're looking at comments from the dim and distant:

    ' The ScreamingEagles said:

    Observation at work as trading in RBS and Barclays shares are suspended

    In hindsight Dave and George didn't go hard enough on the economic consequences of a Leave vote. '

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/27/cameron-is-going-boris-is-in-hiding-and-labour-faces-civil-war-so-who-will-lead-britain/#vanilla-comments

    We were told doom and disaster would befall us upon a Leave vote and when it didn't happen we were told that it would when A50 was triggered and when it didn't happen we were told than it would by Christmas.

    For that matter we were told that doom and disaster would happen if the UK didn't join the Euro and before that if the UK left the ERM.

    When the doom and disaster predictions have such a record of failure why should we believe the latest incarnation ?
    Just quoting someone else, RBS and Barclays having their shares suspended was pretty big news in this part of the world.
    Right, you were just 'quoting' someone else.

    Did you ever 'quote people who said "The stock market is at a record high and unemployment is down again, that Project Fear was a pack of lies" ?
This discussion has been closed.