Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Young voters are much more opposed to blue passports being bro

1246

Comments

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855

    There will be no sodding Turkey at Chez Urquhart on Christmas day, I can tell you that for a fact! We might however be watching that classic Christmas movie, Die Hard.

    No turkey at Chez Rotten either. I am a veggie!
    There'll be sod all food at Chez Jessop on Christmas Day, as we're going to be up north at my parents... ;)
    I got my parents to come to me instead! We’re getting a take away turkey from a local hotel, mainly so I don’t mess it up!
  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sean_F said:

    A nice graph here which shows how dependent the UK economy was on household debt before the recession:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/bulletins/quarterlysectoraccounts/julytoseptember2017#household-debt-rose-by-its-slowest-rate-since-quarter-4-2013

    Over half a trillion quid of household borrowing between 2003 and 2007.

    An interesting graph here too, on our relative G7 performance.

    twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/943861458030481408
    Seems to me like the trend was downwards way before Brexit, while the others were rising.
    The issue is relative performance. Before the Brexit vote we were top of the G7, now we are bottom, but at least we have the promise of blue passports.

    I think Brexit will end in a whimper rather than a bang. I think a lost decade of Brexit induced austerity is on the cards.

    Less than 2 years now before I call it a day. Once Fox jr is sorted, I shall be off on my adventures.
    No it isn't. With things like this, it is the trend...you can see the trend 2 years before Brexit, it is heading slightly downwards and simply continues along the same trend post Brexit. While other G7, the trend is upwards.

    Not every single thing is Brexit and only Brexit.
    More pertinently, the shifts in headline growth numbers are very small, but the underlying numbers show a shift from consumption to production and exporting.
    Yes, that is a trend I've been seeing for the last three quarters, and in today's data we can see that export growth is definitely seeing an uptick. We've seen decent rates in the recent past, but it was usually a one off. What we're currently seeking is sustained export growth every quarter rather than one off blips. What we really need to see is a sustained fall in importation of finished manufactured goods to make anything stick.

    Surely sustained growth in exports is linked to sustained growth in our biggest overseas markets.

    Yes, of course. The European economies are finally consuming goods and services again. We've only been waiting for 10 years. Though the Germans are still not pulling their weight and Spain's economy is sitting on a knife edge because of the Catalan situation.

    Funnily enough, we increased our rxports to others while the EU economies struggled. Now they’re picking up they’re helping us big time. Our growth would be much lower without their growth.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    A nice graph here which shows how dependent the UK economy was on household debt before the recession:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/bulletins/quarterlysectoraccounts/julytoseptember2017#household-debt-rose-by-its-slowest-rate-since-quarter-4-2013

    Over half a trillion quid of household borrowing between 2003 and 2007.

    An interesting graph here too, on our relative G7 performance.

    twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/943861458030481408
    Seems to me like the trend was downwards way before Brexit, while the others were rising.
    The issue is relative performance. Before the Brexit vote we were top of the G7, now we are bottom, but at least we have the promise of blue passports.

    I think Brexit will end in a whimper rather than a bang. I think a lost decade of Brexit induced austerity is on the cards.

    Less than 2 years now before I call it a day. Once Fox jr is sorted, I shall be off on my adventures.
    We're 9 years into the current cycle
    Though growth seems to be spedding up elsewhere in the world. It is the UK that is slowing.

    I see nothing positive about Brexit, just needless misery and grinding austerity. Like yourself, I have had enough of the country for a while.
    If you have had enough then leave. You really won't be missed.

    You make fatuous statements as if they are a substitute for action. I suspect this is exactly what you did during the referendum campaign as well whilst those of us who actually cared about the issues were out trying to make sure our side - whether Leave or Remain - won.
    I did some canvassing for Remain, and a few rallies, but it was an uninspiring campaign. Too much project Fear and little positive vision. I said so here at the time.

    I am never bored of Britain, but I do get sick of it occassionally. As a patriot, I do feel quite disillusioned by the backward looking nationalism that is in vogue here.

    I’d be wary of retiring in a country with much higher inflation than UK...
    My pension is aid in Sterling, on final salary and inflation linked, so even actuarily reduced for early retirement makes me quite comfortable.

    I can also dip in and out of Locum work when I need extra cash tok, so have no fears for my finances.
  • Options
    China backs punitive sanctions against North Korea at the UN. You want Trump’s biggest win since becoming president? There it is.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Funnily enough, we increased our rxports to others while the EU economies struggled. Now they’re picking up they’re helping us big time. Our growth would be much lower without their growth.

    I don't disagree, the Swiss economy is also benefiting from that effect. The EU is finally bouncing back from 10 years of nothing, the worry is that it won't last once the ECB turns the stimulus taps off, we'll see from January (well probably March because it will take time for the change to feed through) what will happen once the programme is cut from €60bn per month to €30bn per month.
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Cyclefree said:

    Turkey is the most boring meat imaginable.

    A delicious rib of beef will be consumed in the Cyclefree household on Xmas Day, preceded by tortellini in brodo (proper homemade clear broth, using veal bones). The meat will be accompanied by delicious vegetables - though not Brussel sprouts. And there will be a selection of fine wines.

    We also have canapes with our champagne and scrumptious macaroons with coffee.

    Very nice. There will be no turkey in this place either. A mix of chicken and roast beef with vegetables roasted in Olive oil, basil and very lightly drizzled with honey. And the wines and Bucks Fizz for breakfast :)
    Cyclefree said:

    Oh ..... and I like burgundy as a colour and my burgundy passport.

    Me too. The blue passport is pandering to the dinosaurs
    Cyclefree said:

    Have I covered all aspects of today’s important debates?

    No. Because this lot just witter on about Brexit - there is no debate ;)
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,818
    What was wrong with going back to the good old BLACK passport rather than that scabby blue.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    Regarding Bitcoin and the other crypto currencies. (And I speak as someone who sold 99% of theirs at the weekend, and now is very scared about my credit exposure to Coinbase.)

    The only one with any real staying power is Ethereum. Why? Because "mining" Ethereum is not some pointless crpyto task. On the contrary, you can use Ethereum to execute smart contracts, which can be arbitrary code. The "miners" therefore make up a super computer, and the people buying Ether are paying to have their programmes run.

    I was put onto it by Edmund in Tokyo, who one of the biggest experts globally. If the crash continues, it might be very interesting.

    The Ethereum VM is a clusterfuck. The DAO debacle shows the utter vapidity of the smart contract concept.

    Incidentally Tether looks more and more like a scam the more I read about it.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    Looks like the UK voted with the USA today too which makes a change from yesterday
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    China backs punitive sanctions against North Korea at the UN. You want Trump’s biggest win since becoming president? There it is.

    Other than the Jerusalem blunder, Trump has had a very good year in terms of foreign policy. Significant wins over ISIS, getting China to put sanctions on NK, the Saudi Arabia change of ruler, further sidelining of Iran, even helping the Russians prevent the terror attack just recently.

    He's had a better year this year than Obama had for 8 years.

    It seems that the world responds better to strongmen than it does to weak ones like Obama. Thatcher and Reagan knew that too. Even Dave, to his credit, was good at standing his ground on the international stage. Obama was far too willing to give in to the consensus to be liked by other international leaders. Trump either doesn't care or believes they like him anyway.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    AndyJS said:

    At the 2014 London local elections Labour polled 37%. At the general election they got 55%. That would be a pretty big swing if replicated next year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_local_elections,_2014#Results

    The Tories were also up in London in June as UKIP collapsed and the LDs failed to recover in voteshare and even if Labour gain more seats given they now hold 20 London boroughs to 9 for the Tories that gives them little scope to win many more London councils
  • Options
    Heading to the local pub this evening. Probably be total British Black Friday alcohol-fueled madness.

    In which case I will be home by 8pm.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957

    A nice graph here which shows how dependent the UK economy was on household debt before the recession:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/bulletins/quarterlysectoraccounts/julytoseptember2017#household-debt-rose-by-its-slowest-rate-since-quarter-4-2013

    Over half a trillion quid of household borrowing between 2003 and 2007.

    An interesting graph here too, on our relative G7 performance.

    twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/943861458030481408
    Seems to me like the trend was downwards way before Brexit, while the others were rising.
    The issue is relative performance. Before the Brexit vote we were top of the G7, now we are bottom, but at least we have the promise of blue passports.

    I think Brexit will end in a whimper rather than a bang. I think a lost decade of Brexit induced austerity is on the cards.

    Less than 2 years now before I call it a day. Once Fox jr is sorted, I shall be off on my adventures.
    We have already had almost a decade of austerity, more likely if Corbyn gets in is we still have Brexit just with more borrowing, more spending and higher taxes.
  • Options
    CubeCube Posts: 1

    *raises an eyebrow*

    "I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...

    Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.
    While driving around this last week I've been keeping a look out for all those unharvested fields you talked about.

    I've not managed to see any yet in southern Yorkshire, northern Nottinghamshire or north-western Lincolnshire.

    But then I wouldn't expect to given that employment in the agricultural sector is at a twenty year high.

    Perhaps you could give details as to where they are.
    It being December, I'm doubtful that harvesting pressures are particularly intense right now.
    So no link to a BBC report on unharvested fields ?

    Perhaps because there isn't any ?

    Though it would be fun to see such a report
    From the Bank of England's summary of its quarterly report on business conditions across the country (information gathered by something like a dozen regional agents):

    "Recruitment difficulties were a growing concern for businesses as labour shortages had become more generalised across sectors and skill levels".

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855

    China backs punitive sanctions against North Korea at the UN. You want Trump’s biggest win since becoming president? There it is.

    Fair play to China and Trump. Good to see everyone now realises the threat posed by NK.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,832
    malcolmg said:

    What was wrong with going back to the good old BLACK passport rather than that scabby blue.

    Yes, my first passport was black. Don't mind black or burgundy but the blue being shown is awful.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MaxPB said:

    Funnily enough, we increased our rxports to others while the EU economies struggled. Now they’re picking up they’re helping us big time. Our growth would be much lower without their growth.

    I don't disagree, the Swiss economy is also benefiting from that effect. The EU is finally bouncing back from 10 years of nothing, the worry is that it won't last once the ECB turns the stimulus taps off, we'll see from January (well probably March because it will take time for the change to feed through) what will happen once the programme is cut from €60bn per month to €30bn per month.
    We must not forget that the Fed and the BoE had been running the taps at full for years and many years before the ECB did.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,832
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:


    The Tories were also up in London in June as UKIP collapsed and the LDs failed to recover in voteshare and even if Labour gain more seats given they now hold 20 London boroughs to 9 for the Tories that gives them little scope to win many more London councils

    The question for the local elections next year is whether Labour can get their 2017 GE vote out for the Borough contests. If they can, the capacity for gains is there. If not, it'll be pretty much status quo (excepting perhaps Kingston and Richmond).

  • Options
    Cube said:

    *raises an eyebrow*

    "I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...

    Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.
    While driving around this last week I've been keeping a look out for all those unharvested fields you talked about.

    I've not managed to see any yet in southern Yorkshire, northern Nottinghamshire or north-western Lincolnshire.

    But then I wouldn't expect to given that employment in the agricultural sector is at a twenty year high.

    Perhaps you could give details as to where they are.
    It being December, I'm doubtful that harvesting pressures are particularly intense right now.
    So no link to a BBC report on unharvested fields ?

    Perhaps because there isn't any ?

    Though it would be fun to see such a report
    From the Bank of England's summary of its quarterly report on business conditions across the country (information gathered by something like a dozen regional agents):

    "Recruitment difficulties were a growing concern for businesses as labour shortages had become more generalised across sectors and skill levels".

    As Remain's Stuart Rose warned us, wages might have to rise. Or as most of the Leavers tell us, we might need more immigrants, but in a controlled way.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    At the 2014 London local elections Labour polled 37%. At the general election they got 55%. That would be a pretty big swing if replicated next year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_local_elections,_2014#Results

    The Tories were also up in London in June as UKIP collapsed and the LDs failed to recover in voteshare and even if Labour gain more seats given they now hold 20 London boroughs to 9 for the Tories that gives them little scope to win many more London councils
    I am hoping for a wipeout.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,907



    My pension is aid in Sterling, on final salary and inflation linked, so even actuarily reduced for early retirement makes me quite comfortable.

    I can also dip in and out of Locum work when I need extra cash tok, so have no fears for my finances.

    I’ve been helping out a relative with their NHS consultant pension - really is a good deal they/you are getting.
    I think we worked out it was better for my relative to retire a bit earlier to capture a higher final salary within the past three years than slog on.
    Still have to check things through with the pensions people.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,299
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    At the 2014 London local elections Labour polled 37%. At the general election they got 55%. That would be a pretty big swing if replicated next year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_local_elections,_2014#Results

    The Tories were also up in London in June as UKIP collapsed and the LDs failed to recover in voteshare and even if Labour gain more seats given they now hold 20 London boroughs to 9 for the Tories that gives them little scope to win many more London councils
    I'm fairly certain the Tory share of the vote went down in London in June's general election.

    Edit - Yup in London the Tory share of the vote went down 1.7%

    Changes since the 2015 GE in London

    Lab +10.8%

    Con -1.7%

    LD +1.1%

    UKIP - 6.8%

    http://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2017-06-08/results/Location/County/Greater London
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    At the 2014 London local elections Labour polled 37%. At the general election they got 55%. That would be a pretty big swing if replicated next year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_local_elections,_2014#Results

    The Tories were also up in London in June as UKIP collapsed and the LDs failed to recover in voteshare and even if Labour gain more seats given they now hold 20 London boroughs to 9 for the Tories that gives them little scope to win many more London councils
    I am hoping for a wipeout.
    Not happening, Labour will be doing well to gain more than 1 or 2 Tory councils in London next year let alone Westminster, Bromley and Bexley. It may even the LDs pick up more Tory councils than Labour if they win Richmond and Kingston upon Thames
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,907
    China ought to be delighted with Trump for scuppering the TPP.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,832
    Sandpit said:

    China backs punitive sanctions against North Korea at the UN. You want Trump’s biggest win since becoming president? There it is.

    Fair play to China and Trump. Good to see everyone now realises the threat posed by NK.
    Russia also backed the sanctions in a rare show of unanimity.

    Is there an endgame here involving the replacement of the Juche dynasty with a more sensible pro-Beijing Government ? It may be that can be achieved without much bloodshed (apart from Kim Jong-Il and his cronies but we'll lose little sleep over that).

    Presumably once that has been achieved, all sanctions will be lifted and we'll see a dramatic thawing of tension in the region which will also be no bad thing.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:


    The Tories were also up in London in June as UKIP collapsed and the LDs failed to recover in voteshare and even if Labour gain more seats given they now hold 20 London boroughs to 9 for the Tories that gives them little scope to win many more London councils

    The question for the local elections next year is whether Labour can get their 2017 GE vote out for the Borough contests. If they can, the capacity for gains is there. If not, it'll be pretty much status quo (excepting perhaps Kingston and Richmond).

    Even then, most of the Labour target councils like Barnet, Wandsworth and Kensington and Chelsea and Hillingdon still had a Tory MP elected in the area at the general election
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    I've fetched my old passport out of the cupboard, and whichever way I look at it, it still looks black rather than blue.
  • Options
    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    China backs punitive sanctions against North Korea at the UN. You want Trump’s biggest win since becoming president? There it is.

    Fair play to China and Trump. Good to see everyone now realises the threat posed by NK.
    Russia also backed the sanctions in a rare show of unanimity.

    Is there an endgame here involving the replacement of the Juche dynasty with a more sensible pro-Beijing Government ? It may be that can be achieved without much bloodshed (apart from Kim Jong-Il and his cronies but we'll lose little sleep over that).

    Presumably once that has been achieved, all sanctions will be lifted and we'll see a dramatic thawing of tension in the region which will also be no bad thing.
    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    At the 2014 London local elections Labour polled 37%. At the general election they got 55%. That would be a pretty big swing if replicated next year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_local_elections,_2014#Results

    The Tories were also up in London in June as UKIP collapsed and the LDs failed to recover in voteshare and even if Labour gain more seats given they now hold 20 London boroughs to 9 for the Tories that gives them little scope to win many more London councils
    I'm fairly certain the Tory share of the vote went down in London in June's general election.

    Edit - Yup in London the Tory share of the vote went down 1.7%

    Changes since the 2015 GE in London

    Lab +10.8%

    Con -1.7%

    LD +1.1%

    UKIP - 6.8%

    http://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2017-06-08/results/Location/County/Greater London
    We were talking in comparison to the 2014 local elections not the 2015 general election, your point would have been relevant in June not next May given Labour won the 2014 London local elections by a wider margin than they beat the Tories in London at the 2015 general election
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,947

    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    China backs punitive sanctions against North Korea at the UN. You want Trump’s biggest win since becoming president? There it is.

    Fair play to China and Trump. Good to see everyone now realises the threat posed by NK.
    Russia also backed the sanctions in a rare show of unanimity.

    Is there an endgame here involving the replacement of the Juche dynasty with a more sensible pro-Beijing Government ? It may be that can be achieved without much bloodshed (apart from Kim Jong-Il and his cronies but we'll lose little sleep over that).

    Presumably once that has been achieved, all sanctions will be lifted and we'll see a dramatic thawing of tension in the region which will also be no bad thing.
    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?
    Surely preferable to a nuclear-armed nutter?
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Never mind the colour, how quaint is it that passports are still little books made of paper, and how long will that continue to be the case? It surely can't be long before they are cards with chips in them, or bionic implants.

    I think the answer to that is when some random border post in the back of beyond on the border between Burkina Faso and Mali is equipped to deal with chipped cards or implants.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    At the 2014 London local elections Labour polled 37%. At the general election they got 55%. That would be a pretty big swing if replicated next year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_local_elections,_2014#Results

    The Tories were also up in London in June as UKIP collapsed and the LDs failed to recover in voteshare and even if Labour gain more seats given they now hold 20 London boroughs to 9 for the Tories that gives them little scope to win many more London councils
    I am hoping for a wipeout.
    It's hard to see where it would come from. Havering, Bexley, Bromley, Richmond, Sutton, and Kingston are unwinnable for Labour. Westminster, Kensington, Wandsworth, Barnet, Hillingdon are all difficult.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,138
    GDP increased by 1.7% between Q3 2016 and Q4 2017. That looks pretty good news for my bet with Robert but unfortunately most of the revision is in Q4 2016 and will fall out of the reckoning. It’s going to be nip and tuck.

    The economy is, however, doing ok. We grew faster than others out of the crash because Osborne pulled forward expenditure by QE and a looser fiscal policy than many wanted. As these effects have waned and as the QE in the EZ has increased we have fallen back by very modest amounts. Looking forward our current growth looks more sustainable based on exports and production. This has to be welcomed even if the very low wage growth is painful. We are finally rebalancing but we still have a long way to go.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    At the 2014 London local elections Labour polled 37%. At the general election they got 55%. That would be a pretty big swing if replicated next year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_local_elections,_2014#Results

    The Tories were also up in London in June as UKIP collapsed and the LDs failed to recover in voteshare and even if Labour gain more seats given they now hold 20 London boroughs to 9 for the Tories that gives them little scope to win many more London councils
    I'm fairly certain the Tory share of the vote went down in London in June's general election.

    Edit - Yup in London the Tory share of the vote went down 1.7%

    Changes since the 2015 GE in London

    Lab +10.8%

    Con -1.7%

    LD +1.1%

    UKIP - 6.8%

    http://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2017-06-08/results/Location/County/Greater London
    We were talking in comparison to the 2014 local elections not the 2015 general election, your point would have been relevant in June not next May given Labour won the 2014 London local elections by a wider margin than they beat the Tories in London at the 2015 general election
    The Conservative vote has been stuck at 30-35% in London since 1994, but it's much more efficiently distributed, concentrated in fewer boroughs, than in the 1990's.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    rpjs said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Never mind the colour, how quaint is it that passports are still little books made of paper, and how long will that continue to be the case? It surely can't be long before they are cards with chips in them, or bionic implants.

    I think the answer to that is when some random border post in the back of beyond on the border between Burkina Faso and Mali is equipped to deal with chipped cards or implants.
    You'll still need to provide a 'facilitation payment' to get through, however.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    edited December 2017

    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    China backs punitive sanctions against North Korea at the UN. You want Trump’s biggest win since becoming president? There it is.

    Fair play to China and Trump. Good to see everyone now realises the threat posed by NK.
    Russia also backed the sanctions in a rare show of unanimity.

    Is there an endgame here involving the replacement of the Juche dynasty with a more sensible pro-Beijing Government ? It may be that can be achieved without much bloodshed (apart from Kim Jong-Il and his cronies but we'll lose little sleep over that).

    Presumably once that has been achieved, all sanctions will be lifted and we'll see a dramatic thawing of tension in the region which will also be no bad thing.
    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea?
    A question that provokes some of the most dangerous words in international relations - it couldn't be any worse than what is there now, could it? The Chinese regime is unpleasant to liberal democracies, but they still fit in the normal range of regimes, good and bad.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855

    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    China backs punitive sanctions against North Korea at the UN. You want Trump’s biggest win since becoming president? There it is.

    Fair play to China and Trump. Good to see everyone now realises the threat posed by NK.
    Russia also backed the sanctions in a rare show of unanimity.

    Is there an endgame here involving the replacement of the Juche dynasty with a more sensible pro-Beijing Government ? It may be that can be achieved without much bloodshed (apart from Kim Jong-Il and his cronies but we'll lose little sleep over that).

    Presumably once that has been achieved, all sanctions will be lifted and we'll see a dramatic thawing of tension in the region which will also be no bad thing.
    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?
    A Chinese puppet is somewhat preferable to the nuclear-armed lunatic intent on Armageddon that’s there at the moment.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,322



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    I've fetched my old passport out of the cupboard, and whichever way I look at it, it still looks black rather than blue.

    I think officially they were supposed to be a very, very dark navy blue, like British police uniforms.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    rpjs said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Never mind the colour, how quaint is it that passports are still little books made of paper, and how long will that continue to be the case? It surely can't be long before they are cards with chips in them, or bionic implants.

    I think the answer to that is when some random border post in the back of beyond on the border between Burkina Faso and Mali is equipped to deal with chipped cards or implants.
    You'll still need to provide a 'facilitation payment' to get through, however.
    Probably using cryptocurrency.

    I'll get me coat.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited December 2017
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    At the 2014 London local elections Labour polled 37%. At the general election they got 55%. That would be a pretty big swing if replicated next year.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_local_elections,_2014#Results

    The Tories were also up in London in June as UKIP collapsed and the LDs failed to recover in voteshare and even if Labour gain more seats given they now hold 20 London boroughs to 9 for the Tories that gives them little scope to win many more London councils
    I'm fairly certain the Tory share of the vote went down in London in June's general election.

    Edit - Yup in London the Tory share of the vote went down 1.7%

    Changes since the 2015 GE in London

    Lab +10.8%

    Con -1.7%

    LD +1.1%

    UKIP - 6.8%

    http://electionresults.parliament.uk/election/2017-06-08/results/Location/County/Greater London
    We were talking in comparison to the 2014 local elections not the 2015 general election, your point would have been relevant in June not next May given Labour won the 2014 London local elections by a wider margin than they beat the Tories in London at the 2015 general election
    The Conservative vote has been stuck at 30-35% in London since 1994, but it's much more efficiently distributed, concentrated in fewer boroughs, than in the 1990's.
    In the 2014 London local elections the Tories got just 26% and Labour won over 60% of London councils. So even a 55% voteshare for Labour in London would not necessarily see them gain more boroughs.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_local_elections,_2014

    Given they did pretty badly last time in London anyway the Tories just have to defend their core boroughs to tread water, nothing more
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    edited December 2017
    stodge said:

    malcolmg said:

    What was wrong with going back to the good old BLACK passport rather than that scabby blue.

    Yes, my first passport was black. Don't mind black or burgundy but the blue being shown is awful.
    Perhaps they'll be able to offer a range? The darker the blue, the more Brexity.

    Edit: Sadly it is the UN which has the really light blue, which would make such a range very appropriate, but the EU's blue is, upon checking, not as light as I had recalled.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855

    rpjs said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Never mind the colour, how quaint is it that passports are still little books made of paper, and how long will that continue to be the case? It surely can't be long before they are cards with chips in them, or bionic implants.

    I think the answer to that is when some random border post in the back of beyond on the border between Burkina Faso and Mali is equipped to deal with chipped cards or implants.
    You'll still need to provide a 'facilitation payment' to get through, however.
    Always good to have a friend or two called Benjamin in those parts of the world...
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,818
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    edited December 2017
    But the mere act of them getting them redesigned will cost the taxpayer something. If absolutely everyone, Leavers and Remainers alike, are perfectly content to keep them as they are, that sounds like a gratuitous waste of money.

    Is blue ink really that expensive? ;)

    About £50billion up front and roughly 10% off GDP in the long run would be my estimate.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
    Isn't it the case that the current regime is already a Chinese puppet regime ?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,138
    kle4 said:

    stodge said:

    malcolmg said:

    What was wrong with going back to the good old BLACK passport rather than that scabby blue.

    Yes, my first passport was black. Don't mind black or burgundy but the blue being shown is awful.
    Perhaps they'll be able to offer a range? The darker the blue, the more Brexity.

    Edit: Sadly it is the UN which has the really light blue, which would make such a range very appropriate, but the EU's blue is, upon checking, not as light as I had recalled.
    My daughter was at a wedding in Mozambique this summer and admission to the country certainly involved a contribution to the feeding of the border guards family (as he put it). The girl was marrying a bloke who works there with the World Bank so he had a UN passport. My daughter said it was really interesting in that it gave no clue as to the nationality of the holder. And it was indeed light blue.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    If this really is a game changing win for Trump on the international stage, then the odds should drift that he won't make a full term in office.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
    WTF?

    A Chinese puppet is better than a free democracy?

    (I hope you mean it is the best of the likely outcomes)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    malcolmg said:
    So Scotland would still vote to stay in the UK despite a question entirely focused on an independence vote at the time of Brexit.

    Given polling for the next Holyrood elections suggest the unionist parties combined would now win a majority hypothetical indyref2 questions are becoming increasingly irrelevant anyway
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    nielh said:



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
    Isn't it the case that the current regime is already a Chinese puppet regime ?
    Propped up by not entirely a puppet, perhaps? I've read articles which suggest that the Chinese frequently get very annoyed by the North Koreans, who take provocative actions from time to time when Beijing was not prepared for it, but not so annoyed that they want to consider what would happen if the regime collapsed. If it was entirely a puppet even that petty annoyance would not occur.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    malcolmg said:
    You had your chance in 2014. You missed it.

    There will be no further independence referendum until we’re out, and once we’ve left, the hurdle gets much higher. There’s also the small point that an independent Scotland is a non-starter in fiscal terms and you still haven’t answered the currency question.

    Otherwise, lots to be positive about.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,818
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:
    So Scotland would still vote to stay in the UK despite a question entirely focused on an independence vote at the time of Brexit.

    Given polling for the next Holyrood elections suggest the unionist parties combined would now win a majority hypothetical indyref2 questions are becoming increasingly irrelevant anyway
    You are a silly Billy , take off those blue tinted glasses and see reality, the nasties are heading back to where they should be.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    nielh said:

    If this really is a game changing win for Trump on the international stage, then the odds should drift that he won't make a full term in office.

    And it's been a couple of weeks since I can recall everyone getting worked up over something very dangerous or stupid he has said on twitter- either everyone's numb to it or is he actually starting to get on with the job a little?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:
    So Scotland would still vote to stay in the UK despite a question entirely focused on an independence vote at the time of Brexit.

    Given polling for the next Holyrood elections suggest the unionist parties combined would now win a majority hypothetical indyref2 questions are becoming increasingly irrelevant anyway
    You are a silly Billy , take off those blue tinted glasses and see reality, the nasties are heading back to where they should be.
    If you say so, though you didn't think they'd make to where they are now, either. Given the rapid shift from Lab dominance, to SNP dominance, to unionist recovery (while still having SNP ahead), wariness is surely to be called for when predicting events in Scotland I'd have thought.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,138
    RoyalBlue said:

    malcolmg said:
    You had your chance in 2014. You missed it.

    There will be no further independence referendum until we’re out, and once we’ve left, the hurdle gets much higher. There’s also the small point that an independent Scotland is a non-starter in fiscal terms and you still haven’t answered the currency question.

    Otherwise, lots to be positive about.
    The next Scottish Parliament elections will be interesting. I would expect the SNP to remain the largest party but I would expect there to be a fairly solid Unionist majority in the Parliament allowing the blocking of any further referendum for the duration of that Parliament at least.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Young people don't know what a blue passport is because they don't have any means of easily looking up information and it would be a long and cold walk down to the library.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited December 2017
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:
    So Scotland would still vote to stay in the UK despite a question entirely focused on an independence vote at the time of Brexit.

    Given polling for the next Holyrood elections suggest the unionist parties combined would now win a majority hypothetical indyref2 questions are becoming increasingly irrelevant anyway
    You are a silly Billy , take off those blue tinted glasses and see reality, the nasties are heading back to where they should be.
    Ha ha. Scotland is heading for a unionist majority at Holyrood which would kill off indyref2 talk for a generation, the SNP are no longer even able to match their Catalan friends after Catalan nationalists narrowly held their majority in the Catalan Parliament in yesterday's elections
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    malcolmg said:
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
    I think it is clear that there won't be another referendum until after 2022, probably much later.
    The outcome will, I think, depend on how successful Brexit is, which no one can really know.
    It is a high risk strategy that the conservatives have embarked on, that could well lead to the break up of the UK.
    I have to say that I am not that bothered either way. I wish the scots the best if they want to become independent and rejoin the EU. Its their choice.
    Maybe the UK has outlived its purpose, if so then it is sad, but so be it.
  • Options
    Polling data 10 months out of date?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,138
    kle4 said:

    nielh said:

    If this really is a game changing win for Trump on the international stage, then the odds should drift that he won't make a full term in office.

    And it's been a couple of weeks since I can recall everyone getting worked up over something very dangerous or stupid he has said on twitter- either everyone's numb to it or is he actually starting to get on with the job a little?
    There were some seriously idiotic tweets in favour of the child molester in Alabama not long ago.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
    I think it is clear that there won't be another referendum until after 2022, probably much later.
    The outcome will, I think, depend on how successful Brexit is, which no one can really know.
    It is a high risk strategy that the conservatives have embarked on, that could well lead to the break up of the UK.
    I have to say that I am not that bothered either way. I wish the scots the best if they want to become independent and rejoin the EU. Its their choice.
    Maybe the UK has outlived its purpose, if so then it is sad, but so be it.
    I don't begrudge them the choice, I just intend to lovebomb them so they know that even though it is up to them, some of us really really don't want them to go. Apathy has been a big problem for the Union. Either of them in fact.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    nielh said:

    If this really is a game changing win for Trump on the international stage, then the odds should drift that he won't make a full term in office.

    And it's been a couple of weeks since I can recall everyone getting worked up over something very dangerous or stupid he has said on twitter- either everyone's numb to it or is he actually starting to get on with the job a little?
    There were some seriously idiotic tweets in favour of the child molester in Alabama not long ago.
    Pff, that was like 10 days ago, practically a lifetime.

    Point taken.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,138
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    nielh said:

    If this really is a game changing win for Trump on the international stage, then the odds should drift that he won't make a full term in office.

    And it's been a couple of weeks since I can recall everyone getting worked up over something very dangerous or stupid he has said on twitter- either everyone's numb to it or is he actually starting to get on with the job a little?
    There were some seriously idiotic tweets in favour of the child molester in Alabama not long ago.
    Pff, that was like 10 days ago, practically a lifetime.

    Point taken.
    You could be on to something though. Is the rate of idiocy declining? I personally think his tax reforms getting through Congress is bigger than this but he’s had a very good week.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    kle4 said:

    nielh said:



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
    Isn't it the case that the current regime is already a Chinese puppet regime ?
    Propped up by not entirely a puppet, perhaps? I've read articles which suggest that the Chinese frequently get very annoyed by the North Koreans, who take provocative actions from time to time when Beijing was not prepared for it, but not so annoyed that they want to consider what would happen if the regime collapsed. If it was entirely a puppet even that petty annoyance would not occur.
    Sounds like it could be a case of one chinese puppet regime being replaced with another one. But is that really possible in the context of a frozen war, and a shared national identity with the south? It seems to me that Chinese fortunes are tied up with the survival of the current regime.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    nielh said:

    If this really is a game changing win for Trump on the international stage, then the odds should drift that he won't make a full term in office.

    And it's been a couple of weeks since I can recall everyone getting worked up over something very dangerous or stupid he has said on twitter- either everyone's numb to it or is he actually starting to get on with the job a little?
    There were some seriously idiotic tweets in favour of the child molester in Alabama not long ago.
    Pff, that was like 10 days ago, practically a lifetime.

    Point taken.
    You could be on to something though. Is the rate of idiocy declining? I personally think his tax reforms getting through Congress is bigger than this but he’s had a very good week.
    Though of course the Senate will be even trickier in the New Year once Jones comes in.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    Steve Bannon attacks the Bush family and calls George HW Bush 'a pervert'

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/steve-bannon-george-hw-bush-is-a-pervert/article/2644196
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    HYUFD said:

    Steve Bannon attacks the Bush family and calls George HW Bush 'a pervert'

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/steve-bannon-george-hw-bush-is-a-pervert/article/2644196

    Can't you be sued in America for saying something like that?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited December 2017
    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
    I think it is clear that there won't be another referendum until after 2022, probably much later.
    The outcome will, I think, depend on how successful Brexit is, which no one can really know.
    It is a high risk strategy that the conservatives have embarked on, that could well lead to the break up of the UK.
    I have to say that I am not that bothered either way. I wish the scots the best if they want to become independent and rejoin the EU. Its their choice.
    Maybe the UK has outlived its purpose, if so then it is sad, but so be it.
    Given the SNP lost almost half their MPs in June, the DUP has won 2 NI elections since the referendum and Wales voted Leave anyway and Plaid is still miles behind Welsh Labour, the union is now arguably stronger thsn it was before the Brexit vote.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Cyclefree said:

    Turkey is the most boring meat imaginable.

    A delicious rib of beef will be consumed in the Cyclefree household on Xmas Day, preceded by tortellini in brodo (proper homemade clear broth, using veal bones). The meat will be accompanied by delicious vegetables - though not Brussel sprouts. And there will be a selection of fine wines.

    We also have canapes with our champagne and scrumptious macaroons with coffee.

    Very nice. There will be no turkey in this place either. A mix of chicken and roast beef with vegetables roasted in Olive oil, basil and very lightly drizzled with honey. And the wines and Bucks Fizz for breakfast :)
    Cyclefree said:

    Oh ..... and I like burgundy as a colour and my burgundy passport.

    Me too. The blue passport is pandering to the dinosaurs
    Cyclefree said:

    Have I covered all aspects of today’s important debates?

    No. Because this lot just witter on about Brexit - there is no debate ;)
    Turkey certainly seems to be getting the thumbs down on PB. I am not a fan either. We have 7 on the day, one Vegetarian. I think that a large chicken will be better than Turkey, and I do like all the trimmings. Roast ham and sweet potato on Christmas eve though (and pineapple of course ;) ). Cold buffet on Boxing day.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
    I think it is clear that there won't be another referendum until after 2022, probably much later.
    The outcome will, I think, depend on how successful Brexit is, which no one can really know.
    It is a high risk strategy that the conservatives have embarked on, that could well lead to the break up of the UK.
    I have to say that I am not that bothered either way. I wish the scots the best if they want to become independent and rejoin the EU. Its their choice.
    Maybe the UK has outlived its purpose, if so then it is sad, but so be it.
    Given the SNP lost almost half their MPs in June, the DUP has won 2 NI elections since the referendum and Wales voted Leave anyway and Plaid is still miles behind Welsh Labour, the union is now arguably stronger thsn it was before the Brexit vote.
    Maybe: but it is just a moment in time. I'm more interested about what is happening over time, the big picture (sorry for the cliche)

    Even so, malcolmg is quoting a survey that suggests that 49% of scots would vote to leave the UK and rejoin the EU as an independent scotland; so there are good reasons to cast doubt on your certainty.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    nielh said:

    kle4 said:

    nielh said:



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
    Isn't it the case that the current regime is already a Chinese puppet regime ?
    Propped up by not entirely a puppet, perhaps? I've read articles which suggest that the Chinese frequently get very annoyed by the North Koreans, who take provocative actions from time to time when Beijing was not prepared for it, but not so annoyed that they want to consider what would happen if the regime collapsed. If it was entirely a puppet even that petty annoyance would not occur.
    Sounds like it could be a case of one chinese puppet regime being replaced with another one. But is that really possible in the context of a frozen war, and a shared national identity with the south? It seems to me that Chinese fortunes are tied up with the survival of the current regime.
    The best deal for China would be reunification of China, and withdrawal of the US military. The absorption of PRK into ROK would keep ROK occupied for decades, and no longer would the US be needed.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited December 2017
    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem yesterday.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
    I think it is clear that there won't be another referendum until after 2022, probably much later.
    The outcome will, I think, depend on how successful Brexit is, which no one can really know.
    It is a high risk strategy that the conservatives have embarked on, that could well lead to the break up of the UK.
    I have to say that I am not that bothered either way. I wish the scots the best if they want to become independent and rejoin the EU. Its their choice.
    Maybe the UK has outlived its purpose, if so then it is sad, but so be it.
    Given the SNP lost almost half their MPs in June, the DUP has won 2 NI elections since the referendum and Wales voted Leave anyway and Plaid is still miles behind Welsh Labour, the union is now arguably stronger thsn it was before the Brexit vote.
    Maybe: but it is just a moment in time. I'm more interested about what is happening over time, the big picture (sorry for the cliche)

    Even so, malcolmg is quoting a survey that suggests that 49% of scots would vote to leave the UK and rejoin the EU as an independent scotland; so there are good reasons to cast doubt on your certainty.

    Now that the Euro crisis has abated, joining the Euro solves the currency issue.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited December 2017
    AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Steve Bannon attacks the Bush family and calls George HW Bush 'a pervert'

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/steve-bannon-george-hw-bush-is-a-pervert/article/2644196

    Can't you be sued in America for saying something like that?
    You can, though the Bushes would be advised not to sue Bannon despite their mutual loathing of him and his former boss
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,947
    nielh said:

    kle4 said:

    nielh said:



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
    Isn't it the case that the current regime is already a Chinese puppet regime ?
    Propped up by not entirely a puppet, perhaps? I've read articles which suggest that the Chinese frequently get very annoyed by the North Koreans, who take provocative actions from time to time when Beijing was not prepared for it, but not so annoyed that they want to consider what would happen if the regime collapsed. If it was entirely a puppet even that petty annoyance would not occur.
    Sounds like it could be a case of one chinese puppet regime being replaced with another one. But is that really possible in the context of a frozen war, and a shared national identity with the south? It seems to me that Chinese fortunes are tied up with the survival of the current regime.
    The real problem with NK is that, under current leadership, it is NOT a Chinese puppet state. The Chinese have no confidence that Fatboy Fat will behave at all rationally, let alone in their interests.
    Whatever your opinion of the PRC, their current leadership is at least sane.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    Aren’t you overreacting just a bit?
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    nielh said:

    kle4 said:

    nielh said:



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
    Isn't it the case that the current regime is already a Chinese puppet regime ?
    Propped up by not entirely a puppet, perhaps? I've read articles which suggest that the Chinese frequently get very annoyed by the North Koreans, who take provocative actions from time to time when Beijing was not prepared for it, but not so annoyed that they want to consider what would happen if the regime collapsed. If it was entirely a puppet even that petty annoyance would not occur.
    Sounds like it could be a case of one chinese puppet regime being replaced with another one. But is that really possible in the context of a frozen war, and a shared national identity with the south? It seems to me that Chinese fortunes are tied up with the survival of the current regime.
    The best deal for China would be reunification of China, and withdrawal of the US military. The absorption of PRK into ROK would keep ROK occupied for decades, and no longer would the US be needed.
    I assume you mean the reunification of Korea and the withdrawal of US troops from Korea, but isn't that the same as the whole of Korea becoming a Chinese vassal state? Not sure how the south Koreans would feel about that, nor whether it would serve US objectives either.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,322
    Charles said:



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
    WTF?

    A Chinese puppet is better than a free democracy?

    (I hope you mean it is the best of the likely outcomes)
    Yes, that's what I meant. The probability of NK turning into a liberal democracy any time soon is IMO virtually zero. But if they were effectively run by China we'd not be at greater risk of nuclear war.
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    Aren’t you overreacting just a bit?
    I am a little surprised we didnt abstain - and just fell in line with the EU directive. May running true to form I suppose.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
    I think it is clear that there won't be another referendum until after 2022, probably much later.
    The outcome will, I think, depend on how successful Brexit is, which no one can really know.
    It is a high risk strategy that the conservatives have embarked on, that could well lead to the break up of the UK.
    I have to say that I am not that bothered either way. I wish the scots the best if they want to become independent and rejoin the EU. Its their choice.
    Maybe the UK has outlived its purpose, if so then it is sad, but so be it.
    Given the SNP lost almost half their MPs in June, the DUP has won 2 NI elections since the referendum and Wales voted Leave anyway and Plaid is still miles behind Welsh Labour, the union is now arguably stronger thsn it was before the Brexit vote.
    Maybe: but it is just a moment in time. I'm more interested about what is happening over time, the big picture (sorry for the cliche)

    Even so, malcolmg is quoting a survey that suggests that 49% of scots would vote to leave the UK and rejoin the EU as an independent scotland; so there are good reasons to cast doubt on your certainty.

    Even that vote has a No vote winning and if Unionist parties win the next Holyrood elections the indyref2 question would be irrelevant anyway
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
    I think it is clear that there won't be another referendum until after 2022, probably much later.
    The outcome will, I think, depend on how successful Brexit is, which no one can really know.
    It is a high risk strategy that the conservatives have embarked on, that could well lead to the break up of the UK.
    I have to say that I am not that bothered either way. I wish the scots the best if they want to become independent and rejoin the EU. Its their choice.
    Maybe the UK has outlived its purpose, if so then it is sad, but so be it.
    Given the SNP lost almost half their MPs in June, the DUP has won 2 NI elections since the referendum and Wales voted Leave anyway and Plaid is still miles behind Welsh Labour, the union is now arguably stronger thsn it was before the Brexit vote.
    Maybe: but it is just a moment in time. I'm more interested about what is happening over time, the big picture (sorry for the cliche)

    Even so, malcolmg is quoting a survey that suggests that 49% of scots would vote to leave the UK and rejoin the EU as an independent scotland; so there are good reasons to cast doubt on your certainty.

    Now that the Euro crisis has abated, joining the Euro solves the currency issue.
    A curveball might be if a Northern Irish border poll comes first and is lost by the unionists. That could go either way in terms of its psychological impact in Scotland, but I’d expect the zeitgeist to be that the union is no longer fit for purpose.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem yesterday.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    I think you are over interpreting NFI-status (which in this case is something we can be proud of)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    Aren’t you overreacting just a bit?
    No, Trump is notorious for his grudges and we can probably forget about a trade deal with the US for good or ill any time soon. In my view even if we were not going to vote with the USA and Israel we should at least have abstained like Australia, Canada and Poland, not vote against the US as we did yesterday.
  • Options
    Cube said:

    *raises an eyebrow*

    "I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...

    Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.
    While driving around this last week I've been keeping a look out for all those unharvested fields you talked about.

    I've not managed to see any yet in southern Yorkshire, northern Nottinghamshire or north-western Lincolnshire.

    But then I wouldn't expect to given that employment in the agricultural sector is at a twenty year high.

    Perhaps you could give details as to where they are.
    It being December, I'm doubtful that harvesting pressures are particularly intense right now.
    So no link to a BBC report on unharvested fields ?

    Perhaps because there isn't any ?

    Though it would be fun to see such a report
    From the Bank of England's summary of its quarterly report on business conditions across the country (information gathered by something like a dozen regional agents):

    "Recruitment difficulties were a growing concern for businesses as labour shortages had become more generalised across sectors and skill levels".

    So someone else unable to give any actual details of fields not being harvested.

    Now what happens when there's labour shortages ? Capital investment and employee training leading to higher productivity and higher output and higher wages.

    And if that's not possible in some sectors then its better if they cease operating and their capital, land and labour resources are used more efficiently in uses which create more wealth.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    Aren’t you overreacting just a bit?
    Surely in the grand scheme of things this will be forgotten by next week, especially with the much more important NK vote today and everyone about to turn their attention to turkey and mince pies?
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    No, it looks like the UK was not invited because it failed to meet the criterion for being invited. Doh.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    Aren’t you overreacting just a bit?
    Oh FFS. It is just a disagreement. It doesn't mean that Togo has a more special relationship with the US than the UK.

  • Options

    Charles said:



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
    WTF?

    A Chinese puppet is better than a free democracy?

    (I hope you mean it is the best of the likely outcomes)
    Yes, that's what I meant. The probability of NK turning into a liberal democracy any time soon is IMO virtually zero. But if they were effectively run by China we'd not be at greater risk of nuclear war.
    Yep, as things stand NK as a satellite of China least worst outcome. I think we have to be realistic, Kim seems such an unstable character that he is capable of doing the unthinkable, with a bit more goading from Trump.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,947
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    Aren’t you overreacting just a bit?
    No, Trump is notorious for his grudges and we can probably forget about a trade deal with the US for good or ill any time soon. In my view even if we were not going to vote with the USA and Israel we should at least have abstained like Australia, Canada and Poland, not vote against the US as we did yesterday.
    Why not? We are a sovereign nation are we not? Foreign Policy is decided in Whitehall in our interests.
    You may disagree with the vote, but the President of USA has no right to determine it.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
    I think it is clear that there won't be another referendum until after 2022, probably much later.
    The outcome will, I think, depend on how successful Brexit is, which no one can really know.
    It is a high risk strategy that the conservatives have embarked on, that could well lead to the break up of the UK.
    I have to say that I am not that bothered either way. I wish the scots the best if they want to become independent and rejoin the EU. Its their choice.
    Maybe the UK has outlived its purpose, if so then it is sad, but so be it.
    Given the SNP lost almost half their MPs in June, the DUP has won 2 NI elections since the referendum and Wales voted Leave anyway and Plaid is still miles behind Welsh Labour, the union is now arguably stronger thsn it was before the Brexit vote.
    Maybe: but it is just a moment in time. I'm more interested about what is happening over time, the big picture (sorry for the cliche)

    Even so, malcolmg is quoting a survey that suggests that 49% of scots would vote to leave the UK and rejoin the EU as an independent scotland; so there are good reasons to cast doubt on your certainty.

    Now that the Euro crisis has abated, joining the Euro solves the currency issue.
    A curveball might be if a Northern Irish border poll comes first and is lost by the unionists. That could go either way in terms of its psychological impact in Scotland, but I’d expect the zeitgeist to be that the union is no longer fit for purpose.
    There will.never be an Irish border poll while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland or indeed until SF and the SDLP win a majority at Stormont. Despite your predictions Unionist parties have won more seats than nationalists in every election in the UK since the EU referendum
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    Ishmael_Z said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    No, it looks like the UK was not invited because it failed to meet the criterion for being invited. Doh.
    Yes because we pissed off the US delegation
  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    China backs punitive sanctions against North Korea at the UN. You want Trump’s biggest win since becoming president? There it is.

    Other than the Jerusalem blunder, Trump has had a very good year in terms of foreign policy. Significant wins over ISIS, getting China to put sanctions on NK, the Saudi Arabia change of ruler, further sidelining of Iran, even helping the Russians prevent the terror attack just recently.

    He's had a better year this year than Obama had for 8 years.

    It seems that the world responds better to strongmen than it does to weak ones like Obama. Thatcher and Reagan knew that too. Even Dave, to his credit, was good at standing his ground on the international stage. Obama was far too willing to give in to the consensus to be liked by other international leaders. Trump either doesn't care or believes they like him anyway.
    Obama was weak and predictable, Trump is strong and unpredictable.

    Trump has also done pretty well with Supreme court nominee, tax cuts and immigration ban from selective countries.

    His appearance of weird uselessness and unpopularity masks his success rate.

    I don't know if its luck or a preplanned act.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029
    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
    I think it is clear that there won't be another referendum until after 2022, probably much later.
    The outcome will, I think, depend on how successful Brexit is, which no one can really know.
    It is a high risk strategy that the conservatives have embarked on, that could well lead to the break up of the UK.
    I have to say that I am not that bothered either way. I wish the scots the best if they want to become independent and rejoin the EU. Its their choice.
    Maybe the UK has outlived its purpose, if so then it is sad, but so be it.
    Given the SNP lost almost half their MPs in June, the DUP has won 2 NI elections since the referendum and Wales voted Leave anyway and Plaid is still miles behind Welsh Labour, the union is now arguably stronger thsn it was before the Brexit vote.
    Maybe: but it is just a moment in time. I'm more interested about what is happening over time, the big picture (sorry for the cliche)

    Even so, malcolmg is quoting a survey that suggests that 49% of scots would vote to leave the UK and rejoin the EU as an independent scotland; so there are good reasons to cast doubt on your certainty.

    Now that the Euro crisis has abated, joining the Euro solves the currency issue.
    A curveball might be if a Northern Irish border poll comes first and is lost by the unionists. That could go either way in terms of its psychological impact in Scotland, but I’d expect the zeitgeist to be that the union is no longer fit for purpose.
    There will.never be an Irish border poll while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland or indeed until SF and the SDLP win a majority at Stormont. Despite your predictions Unionist parties have won more seats than nationalists in every election in the UK since the EU referendum
    The times they are a-changin’.
    https://twitter.com/irelandelects/status/942029754089091072
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    HYUFD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    No, it looks like the UK was not invited because it failed to meet the criterion for being invited. Doh.
    Yes because we pissed off the US delegation
    Have we?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,957
    edited December 2017
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nikki Haley holds a reception for the 65 nations that did not vote for the resolution condemning the US stance on Jerusalem.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nikki-haley-to-host-friendship-party-with-countries-in-the-un-on-jerusalem-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

    The UK, being one of the 128 nations that voted for the resolution, was not invited. Never mind the 'Special Relationship' after yesterday's vote it looks like the UK is not even in the top 65 favoured nations of Trump's USA

    Aren’t you overreacting just a bit?
    No, Trump is notorious for his grudges and we can probably forget about a trade deal with the US for good or ill any time soon. In my view even if we were not going to vote with the USA and Israel we should at least have abstained like Australia, Canada and Poland, not vote against the US as we did yesterday.
    Why not? We are a sovereign nation are we not? Foreign Policy is decided in Whitehall in our interests.
    You may disagree with the vote, but the President of USA has no right to determine it.
    Of course we are but having just pissed off the EU with the Brexit vote we have now pissed off the USA with our vote against them on Jerusalem.

    We have not been this divorced from Europe and the USA since the first administration of Harold Wilson when we were not in the EEC and refused to support the US in Vietnam
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    nielh said:

    nielh said:

    kle4 said:

    nielh said:



    Does America or Russia want a Chinese puppet North Korea? What is the endgame?

    Absolutely. Probably the best possible outcome.
    Isn't it the case that the current regime is already a Chinese puppet regime ?
    Propped up by not entirely a puppet, perhaps? I've read articles which suggest that the Chinese frequently get very annoyed by the North Koreans, who take provocative actions from time to time when Beijing was not prepared for it, but not so annoyed that they want to consider what would happen if the regime collapsed. If it was entirely a puppet even that petty annoyance would not occur.
    Sounds like it could be a case of one chinese puppet regime being replaced with another one. But is that really possible in the context of a frozen war, and a shared national identity with the south? It seems to me that Chinese fortunes are tied up with the survival of the current regime.
    The best deal for China would be reunification of China, and withdrawal of the US military. The absorption of PRK into ROK would keep ROK occupied for decades, and no longer would the US be needed.
    I assume you mean the reunification of Korea and the withdrawal of US troops from Korea, but isn't that the same as the whole of Korea becoming a Chinese vassal state? Not sure how the south Koreans would feel about that, nor whether it would serve US objectives either.
    Not a vassal state, merely one no longer needing foreign forces for defence, just as the Phillipines closed their US bases. Reunified Korea would keep its capitalist democracy, but that is no expansionist threat to China, and likely to be a useful economic ally.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,664

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:
    Something predicted hours after the vote, if not before it - it will surely be razor tight when the question next arises, and despite the regaining of ground by unionists in the GE, clearly they are simply too many independence supporters in Scotland for the question not to be asked again at some point.
    I think it is clear that there won't be another referendum until after 2022, probably much later.
    The outcome will, I think, depend on how successful Brexit is, which no one can really know.
    It is a high risk strategy that the conservatives have embarked on, that could well lead to the break up of the UK.
    I have to say that I am not that bothered either way. I wish the scots the best if they want to become independent and rejoin the EU. Its their choice.
    Maybe the UK has outlived its purpose, if so then it is sad, but so be it.
    Given the SNP lost almost half their MPs in June, the DUP has won 2 NI elections since the referendum and Wales voted Leave anyway and Plaid is still miles behind Welsh Labour, the union is now arguably stronger thsn it was before the Brexit vote.
    May

    Now that the Euro crisis has abated, joining the Euro solves the currency issue.
    A curveball might be if a Northern Irish border poll comes first and is lost by the unionists. That could go either way in terms of its psychological impact in Scotland, but I’d expect the zeitgeist to be that the union is no longer fit for purpose.
    There will.never be an Irish border poll while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland or indeed until SF and the SDLP win a majority at Stormont. Despite your predictions Unionist parties have won more seats than nationalists in every election in the UK since the EU referendum
    The times they are a-changin’.
    hts://twitter.com/irelandelects/status/942029754089091072
    Or that a poll shows a slight change, which may or may not manifest in practice. Just last night for example one Indy party won out over another despite the reverse being expected by some polls.

    We'll see
This discussion has been closed.