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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Preview: September 5th 2013

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited September 2013 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Preview: September 5th 2013

Boston in Lincolnshire (part of the Boston and Skegness constituency) seems on the surface to be a perfectly normal Conservative heartland and back at the 2003 local elections it was (Con 12, Lab 11, Lib Dem 4) but something very strange has been happening in Boston and it all centres on one thing. A bypass around Boston itself.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    Thanks for posting this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Sounds like a busy night.

    On that note, let's hope Murray can turn it around.
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    RedRag1RedRag1 Posts: 527
    edited September 2013
    WAHEY!!!!!! and 2nd

    A huge thank you to Harry Hayfield.
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    Thanks for posting this, Mr. Hayfield.

    Sounds like a busy night.

    On that note, let's hope Murray can turn it around.

    Well I've backed Wawrinka, so that should help Murray
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    Mr. Eagles, when I saw your ill-educated post I was tempted to back Murray for the tournament.
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    Mr. Eagles, when I saw your ill-educated post I was tempted to back Murray for the tournament.

    Bah, I backed him to win Wimbledon, The US Open and the Olympics last year and this year.
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    I seem to recall a handsome young man who tipped Murray at more than 7/1 to win the Olympics, Mr. Eagles.
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    I seem to recall a handsome young man who tipped Murray at more than 7/1 to win the Olympics, Mr. Eagles.

    I know, the same handsome gentleman tipped Jensen Button at 70/1 to win the F1 Championship.

    Have you see the F1 calendar for 2014?
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    RedRag1RedRag1 Posts: 527
    edited September 2013
    TSE - Lib Dems not standing in Torrington due to their (I assume ex) local constituency leader standing as an independent Adrian Freeland. I also have heard the English Dems are not standing in the ward they are defending(Fenside on Boston).
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    Mr. Eagles, if only his recent F1 performance had been a bit better.

    I have. It seems to have almost as much pencil as ink. Russia, South Korea and Mexico are all maybes, and New Jersey doesn't appear at all. Some say the New York race will simply not happen.

    Not that that bothers me. No country should get two races, especially when the extra one is another tedious street circuit that is designed to please beancounters rather than fans.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Reposted as caught by the new thread:

    It was quite a dramatic drop in poll lead. An interesting precedent for the next election.

    Am I right in calculating that the last election that led to a single term parliament was 1970?

    It does seem to me that the British electorate likes to re elect the buggers if they win power!
    tim said:

    tim said:

    In PB Tory land Short money is known as Surge Money.
    The Tories got over four million in the year before the last election and spent it all on airbrushing huge images of David Camerons face and posting them up on ring roads all around the country

    And now he's Prime Minister. Normally I think posters are a waste of money but in this instance it appears to have worked.
    The Tory lead dropped from 17% to 7% as the huge plastic versions of Daves head went up around the country.
    The more Osborne spent the lower the Tory lead went.
    Sadly Brown did not recognise this, had he done he would've given Osborne £4 million more to spend and we'd have a Lib/Lab coalition now instead of a Porpoise PM being forced to devour Hollandes cast off bones in the G20.

    "Stay firm Barack" said the hairless red incompetent porpoise from the sidelines
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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    @TSE

    FPT - no push polling, standard Populus voting questions, 3 top issues affecting Country, which party is best for various issues, am I moving away or towards various parties, communications (mail, leaflets, canvassing etc) over past few months from local parties. So fairly anodyne, apart from the last section.
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    Mr. Eagles, if only his recent F1 performance had been a bit better.

    I have. It seems to have almost as much pencil as ink. Russia, South Korea and Mexico are all maybes, and New Jersey doesn't appear at all. Some say the New York race will simply not happen.

    Not that that bothers me. No country should get two races, especially when the extra one is another tedious street circuit that is designed to please beancounters rather than fans.

    American Grands Prix are awesome, how can you forget the 2005 US Grand Prix?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_United_States_Grand_Prix
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    @TSE

    FPT - no push polling, standard Populus voting questions, 3 top issues affecting Country, which party is best for various issues, am I moving away or towards various parties, communications (mail, leaflets, canvassing etc) over past few months from local parties. So fairly anodyne, apart from the last section.

    Thanks, probably an Ashcroft poll, there are rumours he's going to do a mega poll post conference season and getting in some data beforehand.
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    Mr. Eagles, the Michelin problems made the race utterly farcical.

    Sounds like Pirelli will probably stay as tyre supplier, though they should've sorted the contracts by now.

    And the Austin circuit is damned good (was last year anyway. Circuits can change when they're bedded in, but the variety of corners and elevation changes suggest it'll be good on a permanent basis).
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779
    bbc: Former BBC director general Mark Thompson accuses BBC Trust of misleading MPs on what it knew about executives' payoffs

    This would seem to be pretty serious as he's casting into doubt previous testimony given under oath isn't he?


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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    It's infighting at the top echelons of the BBC.

    Patten may have smoothed himself into his last job.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23981469
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    This has WIN written all over it...

    SkyNews: THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties. http://t.co/MTuGMEvcOs
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    Call me Nostradamus

    Sky News ‏@SkyNews 9s

    THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties.

    pic.twitter.com/MTuGMEvcOs
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,419
    edited September 2013
    If the Battle of Zama was a tennis match, this would be it.

    Wawrinka has opened multiple cans of whoop ass
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Are you expecting a better campaign from the two Eds and a more competent budget?

    As I pointed out, it is very rare for a single term govt to be voted out by the British electorate?

    When was the previous single term govt before Heaths? I think the pre thirties...
    tim said:

    @foxinsox

    The Tory campaign was remarkably bad.
    Run by Osborne of course, a precursor to the omnishambles budget.

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    MikeK said:

    It's infighting at the top echelons of the BBC.

    Patten may have smoothed himself into his last job.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23981469

    How many more things have to go wrong before he says: "actually yes I've been in charge all along, I'll resign"?
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    Wawrinka about to serve for the match
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    Mr. Brooke, show Red Ed the respect he deserves!

    Mr. Eagles, thou art a turnip head. Scipio had veteran troops against Hannibal's new recruits, and the Roman spent the whole winter training his men rigorously on Sicily, whereas Hannibal lacked the opportunity.

    Sadly Murray seems to have as much chance of seeing off Wawrinka as Caesar had of taking Dyrrachium.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed Miliband is crap on an International scale
    Finally, if the fortunes of Cameron and Miliband are significantly affected by the event, it could be in the opposite direction to that suggested by commentators on both left and right; for just as the Cameron brand has an absorptive capacity that gives it resilience, Miliband’s is brittle and ever experimental. The latter’s tactical success – at least this was my minor epiphany in witnessing it – was advanced with such cynical manipulation, justified by such cosmic vanity, and revealing of such cleverest-boy-in-the-class immaturity, as to be a worthy subject for an essay by David Marr. (The most thoughtful columnist of the centre-right, Matthew d’Ancona, by way of a blistering dissection of parliamentarist bluster, writes the first draft.) The political arithmetic still favours Miliband; yet it seems unthinkable that this man can long remain leader of his party, let alone ever become prime minister.
    - See more at: http://inside.org.au/londons-road-from-damascus/#sthash.XN7Hcllo.dpuf
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    Wawrinka about to serve for the match

    Bloody hell? Already???
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    Wawrinka about to serve for the match

    Looks like the Scot has had it.
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    Wawrinka about to serve for the match

    Looks like the Scot has had it.
    Indeed, still I hope he wins SPOTY
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    Wawrinka about to serve for the match

    Bloody hell? Already???
    He's at match point now
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    Mr. Brooke, show Red Ed the respect he deserves!

    Mr. Eagles, thou art a turnip head. Scipio had veteran troops against Hannibal's new recruits, and the Roman spent the whole winter training his men rigorously on Sicily, whereas Hannibal lacked the opportunity.

    Sadly Murray seems to have as much chance of seeing off Wawrinka as Caesar had of taking Dyrrachium.

    Or of Hannibal saving Carthage?
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    Andy Murray is out, give the man some viagra, he couldn't even get a semi.
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    Dr. Prasannan, Carthage was destroyed decades after Hannibal's death. After Zama he became the city's ruler. After the Civil Wars Caesar was murdered by his own side.
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    Nooooooooooo!
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203

    Call me Nostradamus

    Sky News ‏@SkyNews 9s

    THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties.

    pic.twitter.com/MTuGMEvcOs

    As far as this taxpayer is concerned, NFW!

    If political parties cannot persuade people to join them and pay for them then they deserve to die.

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    Dr. Prasannan, Carthage was destroyed decades after Hannibal's death. After Zama he became the city's ruler. After the Civil Wars Caesar was murdered by his own side.

    I stand corrected Mr. Dancer.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Very sombre faces in both New York (Sean Connery) and St Petersburg (Vladimir Putin).
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    RedRag1 said:

    TSE - Lib Dems not standing in Torrington due to their (I assume ex) local constituency leader standing as an independent Adrian Freeland. I also have heard the English Dems are not standing in the ward they are defending(Fenside on Boston).

    Adrian is still chairman of the local Lib Dem branch . I am not sure of why he is standing in this election as a Lib Dem . Although the seat being defended is nominally a Lib Dem ,in reality it is a Geoff Lee seat see the difference between his vote and the other LD candidate in 2011 .
    The Boston by election should be a certain UKIP gain as it is not being defended by Eng Dems . A previous by election in the ward in 2008 was won by BNP
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    So... Labour lose £1m from unions, and a day or two later want taxpayers to fund political parties.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited September 2013
    Dr. Prasannan, if only Mr. Eagles possessed your willingness to learn!

    By chance, Carthage was destroyed in the same year as Corinth (146BC). However, the African city bounced back, whereas the Greek one did not (not sure if it was obliterated as thoroughly as the Macedonians crushed Thebes, though).

    Edited extra bit: I must be off for the night. One shudders to think what historical revisionism Mr. Eagles will inflict on the thread once I'm gone...
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    tim said:


    Blimey Scott, you searched the whole wide world and came up with a journo who wrote this two months ago

    tim, can you read a calendar? Did you see the published date?

    03 September 2013

    Is this the dimmest comment you have ever posted?
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203
    tim said:

    So... Labour lose £1m from unions, and a day or two later want taxpayers to fund political parties.


    I think they should impose the £5k limit on donations but with no extra state funding.
    Bye bye dying Tory party.
    It'll be bye bye both of them. No state funding for political parties. £5k limit to donations from individuals or entities, whether companies or unions or any other sort of association. Parties will have - just like the rest of us - to live within their means.

    And if no-one supports them then they die.

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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Scott_P said:

    This has WIN written all over it...

    SkyNews: THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties. http://t.co/MTuGMEvcOs

    If taxpayers have to pay (more) for political parties, why should non-taxpayers get to vote?

    And, will we be able to decide what political party we want our tax to go to? (ISTR that Germany has/had a religion tax to fund churches, in which the taxpayer chooses the religion/church)
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    Anyone know the amount the big three parties get from small donors? I remember reading the Tories had a lot of small donors, but that was years ago.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Cyclefree said:

    tim said:

    So... Labour lose £1m from unions, and a day or two later want taxpayers to fund political parties.


    I think they should impose the £5k limit on donations but with no extra state funding.
    Bye bye dying Tory party.
    It'll be bye bye both of them. No state funding for political parties. £5k limit to donations from individuals or entities, whether companies or unions or any other sort of association. Parties will have - just like the rest of us - to live within their means.

    And if no-one supports them then they die.

    Fundraising is irrelevant. Let them get fund how they want.

    To prevent the richest buying victory limit spending each and every year.
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    AnneJGP said:

    Scott_P said:

    This has WIN written all over it...

    SkyNews: THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties. http://t.co/MTuGMEvcOs

    If taxpayers have to pay (more) for political parties, why should non-taxpayers get to vote?

    And, will we be able to decide what political party we want our tax to go to? (ISTR that Germany has/had a religion tax to fund churches, in which the taxpayer chooses the religion/church)
    Imagine state funding of the BNP or SWP?
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Andy Murray is out, give the man some viagra, he couldn't even get a semi.

    And people want him as SPOTY. Yet, Mo wins 5000 & 10000 back to back. An amazing achievement.

    Murray's 77 year wait cannot be a plus for him. Instead it is a minus for all British tennis players since 1936.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    AnneJGP said:

    Scott_P said:

    This has WIN written all over it...

    SkyNews: THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties. http://t.co/MTuGMEvcOs

    If taxpayers have to pay (more) for political parties, why should non-taxpayers get to vote?

    And, will we be able to decide what political party we want our tax to go to? (ISTR that Germany has/had a religion tax to fund churches, in which the taxpayer chooses the religion/church)
    Imagine state funding of the BNP or SWP?
    So what if people vote for them, that's democracy. Personally I'd form the lets have a piss-up party, we'd save up 5 years cash and then have a piss-up.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,604
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Andy_JS said:
    I'm sure as he watches those millions roll into his bank account with his drop dead gorgeous girlfriend he asks himself where it all went wrong.
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    surbiton said:

    Andy Murray is out, give the man some viagra, he couldn't even get a semi.

    And people want him as SPOTY. Yet, Mo wins 5000 & 10000 back to back. An amazing achievement.

    Murray's 77 year wait cannot be a plus for him. Instead it is a minus for all British tennis players since 1936.
    Well he did win Wimbledon!
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Falkirk, non-story. Ed's fight with the unions will be good for him...
    Ed Milband’s union reforms are an essential but poorly prepared attack on real power in which the Leader of the Opposition hardly yet seems to understand what he has done.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/philipcollins/article3861835.ece
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    @TSE

    Just watched the PlusNet ad with "Just Can't Get Enough" as the backing track!
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Andy_JS said:
    I'm sure as he watches those millions roll into his bank account with his drop dead gorgeous girlfriend [ who is also not a WAG ] he asks himself where it all went wrong.
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    The Labour party will have no future if it refuses to "do difficult things" to stand up to dictators, a former cabinet minister has said in a strongly worded intervention in which he calls for an "urgent and deep reflection" about last week's Commons votes on Syria.

    Ben Bradshaw called on the party leadership to give "clear and unambiguous" answers over its future policy direction on Syria, in a sign of the deep unease at all levels of the party about the impact of Labour's defeat of the government, which killed off the possibility of military intervention.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/05/labour-syria-policy-ben-bradshaw
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    @TSE

    Just watched the PlusNet ad with "Just Can't Get Enough" as the backing track!

    That's Yorkshire broadband.

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    The Labour party will have no future if it refuses to "do difficult things" to stand up to dictators, a former cabinet minister has said in a strongly worded intervention in which he calls for an "urgent and deep reflection" about last week's Commons votes on Syria.

    Ben Bradshaw called on the party leadership to give "clear and unambiguous" answers over its future policy direction on Syria, in a sign of the deep unease at all levels of the party about the impact of Labour's defeat of the government, which killed off the possibility of military intervention.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/05/labour-syria-policy-ben-bradshaw

    Is that Ben "Blairite" Bradshaw, right?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TimesNewsdesk: Cameron lines up Merkel pact over migrant reform http://t.co/DQghoRaD5g
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    surbiton said:

    [ who is also not a WAG ]

    Surely WAGs should be an irregular plural, the singular should be Wife Or Girlfriend... er, maybe not.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    AnneJGP said:

    Scott_P said:

    This has WIN written all over it...

    SkyNews: THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties. http://t.co/MTuGMEvcOs

    If taxpayers have to pay (more) for political parties, why should non-taxpayers get to vote?

    And, will we be able to decide what political party we want our tax to go to? (ISTR that Germany has/had a religion tax to fund churches, in which the taxpayer chooses the religion/church)
    Imagine state funding of the BNP or SWP?
    Well, unless "they" are prepared to make them illegal, parties like that will have to be state-funded too, won't they? If they're legitimate political parties, why not? Also, it's hardly democratic only to fund the present major players and make no provision for start-up parties.
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    AnneJGP said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Scott_P said:

    This has WIN written all over it...

    SkyNews: THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties. http://t.co/MTuGMEvcOs

    If taxpayers have to pay (more) for political parties, why should non-taxpayers get to vote?

    And, will we be able to decide what political party we want our tax to go to? (ISTR that Germany has/had a religion tax to fund churches, in which the taxpayer chooses the religion/church)
    Imagine state funding of the BNP or SWP?
    Well, unless "they" are prepared to make them illegal, parties like that will have to be state-funded too, won't they? If they're legitimate political parties, why not? Also, it's hardly democratic only to fund the present major players and make no provision for start-up parties.
    But my argument is no state funding of any party, big or small.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    The Labour party will have no future if it refuses to "do difficult things" to stand up to dictators, a former cabinet minister has said in a strongly worded intervention in which he calls for an "urgent and deep reflection" about last week's Commons votes on Syria.

    Ben Bradshaw called on the party leadership to give "clear and unambiguous" answers over its future policy direction on Syria, in a sign of the deep unease at all levels of the party about the impact of Labour's defeat of the government, which killed off the possibility of military intervention.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/05/labour-syria-policy-ben-bradshaw

    Was Ben Beadshaw really in the Cabinet? How deeply depressing!
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    tim said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Scott_P said:

    This has WIN written all over it...

    SkyNews: THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties. http://t.co/MTuGMEvcOs

    If taxpayers have to pay (more) for political parties, why should non-taxpayers get to vote?

    And, will we be able to decide what political party we want our tax to go to? (ISTR that Germany has/had a religion tax to fund churches, in which the taxpayer chooses the religion/church)
    Imagine state funding of the BNP or SWP?
    The BNP is state funded, they've got two MEPs
    Only for another 8 months, fortunately.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Scott_P said:

    tim said:


    Blimey Scott, you searched the whole wide world and came up with a journo who wrote this two months ago

    tim, can you read a calendar? Did you see the published date?

    03 September 2013

    Is this the dimmest comment you have ever posted?
    I can think of plenty of dim posts from the cellar dweller
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    @suttonnick: Friday's FT front page - "Markets bet on rate rise two years before BoE" #TomorrowsPapersToday #bbcpapers http://t.co/7Av25Sx8Oe

    With the taxpayer on the hook for subsidised mortgages at today's rates.

    A silly and ignorant statement, tim.

    The government Help to Buy schemes guarantee against systemic and catastrophic falls in property market prices.

    The guarantee is called when a property is repossessed and its market value has fallen by more than 5.75%. The government guarantees the lending bank for up to 14.25% of property value, being a band of value loss between 5.75% and 20%.

    The government is not guaranteeing credit risk: the willingness or ability of borrowers to meet capital repayments and loan interest due. The guidelines for bank lending under the scheme require borrowers to be stress tested for increases in interest rates of 2%. In other words a borrower must satisfy the lending bank that he or she has sufficient earnings to service the loan if the interest rate increased by 2%.

    If the BoE raises interest rates two years before its current predicted date, i.e. in 2015 rather than 2017, then it will be because the economy has recovered the output gap faster than expected. It is inconceivable that property prices falling in nominal terms by more than 5.75% would be a symptom of such a recovery.

    The taxpayer is "on the hook" if the economy does not recover not if it does.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,604
    100 incumbent MPs have now been reselected for #GE2015.

    20 have announced their retirements.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dFkzTjFrRmJRN3F6ODBTTEs4NGFhcUE#gid=0
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    The Labour party will have no future if it refuses to "do difficult things" to stand up to dictators, a former cabinet minister has said in a strongly worded intervention in which he calls for an "urgent and deep reflection" about last week's Commons votes on Syria.

    Ben Bradshaw called on the party leadership to give "clear and unambiguous" answers over its future policy direction on Syria, in a sign of the deep unease at all levels of the party about the impact of Labour's defeat of the government, which killed off the possibility of military intervention.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/05/labour-syria-policy-ben-bradshaw

    The impression of Ed as a cynically vacillating schemer is starting to spread like wildfire. This could do serious damage if it takes hold. After Ed's summer of discontent, the Syria thing was supposed to have turned politics upside down. In fact it's merely crystallized everything bad about Ed that went before. It can't be long before Ed is begging Dave and Nick for another vote to salvage his reputation. But I can't envisage either obliging.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    AnneJGP said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Scott_P said:

    This has WIN written all over it...

    SkyNews: THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties. http://t.co/MTuGMEvcOs

    If taxpayers have to pay (more) for political parties, why should non-taxpayers get to vote?

    And, will we be able to decide what political party we want our tax to go to? (ISTR that Germany has/had a religion tax to fund churches, in which the taxpayer chooses the religion/church)
    Imagine state funding of the BNP or SWP?
    Well, unless "they" are prepared to make them illegal, parties like that will have to be state-funded too, won't they? If they're legitimate political parties, why not? Also, it's hardly democratic only to fund the present major players and make no provision for start-up parties.
    But my argument is no state funding of any party, big or small.
    Off the top of my head I agree with you, but I acknowledge I haven't thought it through.

    I suppose democracy needs political parties ... does it? ... and if the population would rather spend their money on single-interest groups or latest gadgets or beer or charities or whatever, keeping democracy functioning is a public good. Presumably there was a similar sort of reasoning (or at least, some reasoning) behind the original provision of Short money for Oppositions.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    The impression of Ed as a cynically vacillating schemer is starting to spread like wildfire. This could do serious damage if it takes hold. After Ed's summer of discontent, the Syria thing was supposed to have turned politics upside down. In fact it's merely crystallized everything bad about Ed that went before. It can't be long before Ed is begging Dave and Nick for another vote to salvage his reputation. But I can't envisage either obliging.

    The question must be asked, just how crap do you have to be before you can be credibly criticised by Ben Bradshaw?

    Ed is setting a new standard
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650
    Not many marginals in the 10 by-elections.How disappointing!
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited September 2013
    A modest suggestion.

    State funding of political parties is of course repulsive (and that includes the Short money).

    But I don't see why we shouldn't have tax relief on donations, up to some maximum per tax year. After all, there's no real difference between a charitable donation (which you make because you selflessly want to help some cause), and a political donation (which you make because you selflessly want to make the country a better place).
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    A modest suggestion.

    State funding of political parties is of course repulsive (and that includes the Short money).

    But I don't see why we shouldn't have tax relief on donations, up to some maximum per tax year. After all, there's no real difference between a charitable donation (which you make because you selflessly want to help some cause), and a political donation (which you make because you selflessly want to make the country a better place).

    Unlimited relief at the top marginal rate would be very useful, Richard.

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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited September 2013
    AveryLP said:

    Unlimited relief at the top marginal rate would be very useful, Richard.

    True, and of course hard to argue against, given the flak Clegg got when he made a very modest suggestion for limiting total relief on charitable donations (everyone has forgotten that, it seems).
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    UKIP gain from EngDem in Boston
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited September 2013
    @annemcelvoy: Ed Miliband opposed the Iraq war, says @mehdirhasan at @BBCNewsnight . No he didn't till after it
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    Loughborough Ashby
    Labour 375 UKIP 118 Con 29

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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Loughborough Ashby
    Labour 375 UKIP 118 Con 29

    This is a student ward hence the very low turnout with students being away at home .
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    Loughborough Ashby
    Labour 375 UKIP 118 Con 29

    Not much sign of UKIP withering there.

    Well done UKIP. On these figures you're on course to wreck the country and bring in a government diametrically opposed to everything you want.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869



    State funding of political parties is of course repulsive (and that includes the Short money).

    It's a bit of a conundrum. We don't want to pay for political parties ourselves, but we don't want other people to pay for them either in case they acquire too much influence. But if you donate to make the country a better place, you're obviously going to want a reasonable approximation of your definition of better - i.e. you want influence. Of course you do.

    So it does boil down to whether political parties are a public good.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,604
    Good to see Keir Starmer on Newsnight explaining why his service has utterly failed to apply the law on FGM for 28 years.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    AnneJGP said:

    AnneJGP said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Scott_P said:

    This has WIN written all over it...

    SkyNews: THE INDEPENDENT: Labour says taxpayers may have to pay more for political parties. http://t.co/MTuGMEvcOs

    If taxpayers have to pay (more) for political parties, why should non-taxpayers get to vote?

    And, will we be able to decide what political party we want our tax to go to? (ISTR that Germany has/had a religion tax to fund churches, in which the taxpayer chooses the religion/church)
    Imagine state funding of the BNP or SWP?
    Well, unless "they" are prepared to make them illegal, parties like that will have to be state-funded too, won't they? If they're legitimate political parties, why not? Also, it's hardly democratic only to fund the present major players and make no provision for start-up parties.
    But my argument is no state funding of any party, big or small.
    Off the top of my head I agree with you, but I acknowledge I haven't thought it through.

    I suppose democracy needs political parties ... does it? ... and if the population would rather spend their money on single-interest groups or latest gadgets or beer or charities or whatever, keeping democracy functioning is a public good. Presumably there was a similar sort of reasoning (or at least, some reasoning) behind the original provision of Short money for Oppositions.
    Short money was about balance - argument is that the governing party has a benefit from the civil service support (which they would, of course, never ever dream of using for political purposes) and the Short money was designed to balance that.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Boston result UKIP 162 Con 87 LD 87 Lab 85
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    Political correspondent of Lincolnshire Echo (Mark Williams) reporting on twitter Labour at 75 votes. The rest as reported by Mark.

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    A modest suggestion.

    State funding of political parties is of course repulsive (and that includes the Short money).

    But I don't see why we shouldn't have tax relief on donations, up to some maximum per tax year. After all, there's no real difference between a charitable donation (which you make because you selflessly want to help some cause), and a political donation (which you make because you selflessly want to make the country a better place).

    Unlimited relief at the top marginal rate would be very useful, Richard.

    Osbornes bonus gift could come straight back rather than having to be gathered up by a few hedge fund bosses and then handed over after dinner with Samantha
    The Treasury does very well from bonuses, tim.

    Did you see the EBA table of EU bankers earning over €1 million which I posted the other day? It showed that the UK had 1,809 or 84% of 2,159 high earning bankers in Europe (excluding Switzerland) or €2.4 billion per year of taxable income.

    Be quiet, tim, don't wake the golden goose. It may fly away and lay its eggs elsewhere.
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    I ain't paying to fund any political parties. I already fund the effing government. If it is ever bought in, I'll get my money back by nicking road signs or something, flog them to gypsies for scrap. Anyway, how is it going to be managed? How do you decide what parties and how much? What about new political parties?
    It's a crap idea. If parties can't attract funding, tough s#!t, let them die, they obviously don't have the right policies.
    I'm inclined to let them get funding from wherever they want, as long as it is public knowledge, so the public can make up their mind about the type of people the party want to associate with. Obviously, we'll have to have a watchdog with very sharp teeth, to ensure honesty, and any party found to be not telling the truth should be fined, and banned, possibly have the leader spend an evening in the stocks so we can pelt 'em with rotting vegetables, or sommat.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited September 2013
    AnneJGP said:



    State funding of political parties is of course repulsive (and that includes the Short money).

    It's a bit of a conundrum. We don't want to pay for political parties ourselves, but we don't want other people to pay for them either in case they acquire too much influence. But if you donate to make the country a better place, you're obviously going to want a reasonable approximation of your definition of better - i.e. you want influence. Of course you do.

    So it does boil down to whether political parties are a public good.
    Personally I don't think it's a conundrum at all. The idea that money forcibly extracted on threat of imprisonment from honest taxpayers should be donated to a political party, with whom they might violently disagree, is repulsive, especially since almost by definition any state funding will entrench the status quo. Conversely, if an honest citizen wants to give her own money to support a party because she thinks it will make the country a better place, why on earth shouldn't she?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    Boston result UKIP 162 Con 87 LD 87 Lab 85

    UKIP on the move. The figures look really thin though (holiday hangover)?
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    Charles said:

    The Labour party will have no future if it refuses to "do difficult things" to stand up to dictators, a former cabinet minister has said in a strongly worded intervention in which he calls for an "urgent and deep reflection" about last week's Commons votes on Syria.

    Ben Bradshaw called on the party leadership to give "clear and unambiguous" answers over its future policy direction on Syria, in a sign of the deep unease at all levels of the party about the impact of Labour's defeat of the government, which killed off the possibility of military intervention.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/05/labour-syria-policy-ben-bradshaw

    Was Ben Beadshaw really in the Cabinet? How deeply depressing!
    One thing you can say for Bradshaw is he did well to hang on in Exeter at the last election when many other similar constituencies went blue
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013

    UKIP gain from EngDem in Boston

    That is like saying the Syrian Army has regained a suburb of Damascus from Al Qaeda.

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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    MikeK said:

    Boston result UKIP 162 Con 87 LD 87 Lab 85

    UKIP on the move. The figures look really thin though (holiday hangover)?
    Ukip just replacing Eng Dem and BNP as the party of choice for protest in this ward
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,604
    edited September 2013
    "Boston result UKIP 162 Con 87 LD 87 Lab 85"

    Nice example of divide and rule from a UKIP perspective.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Possible recount in Wadebridge between Lib Dem and Independent ( Rush )
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It was pretty feeble. Even if the victims do not want to prosecute their own families, the intelligence should allow the police to closely watch the main culprits, and catch them red handed.

    It seems unacceptable for an ageing celebrity to fondle, but tolerated to have a girls clitoris cut off. It is a very twisted world in which we live.
    Andy_JS said:

    Good to see Keir Starmer on Newsnight explaining why his service has utterly failed to apply the law on FGM for 28 years.

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    Boston result UKIP 162 Con 87 LD 87 Lab 85

    UKIP on the move. The figures look really thin though (holiday hangover)?
    Ukip just replacing Eng Dem and BNP as the party of choice for protest in this ward
    UKIP wants to replace the whole Lab/Lib/Con misgoverning mess. Methinks you protest too much Mark.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,604
    We were supposed to be getting the Labour selection in Chippenham today.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    A modest suggestion.

    State funding of political parties is of course repulsive (and that includes the Short money).

    But I don't see why we shouldn't have tax relief on donations, up to some maximum per tax year. After all, there's no real difference between a charitable donation (which you make because you selflessly want to help some cause), and a political donation (which you make because you selflessly want to make the country a better place).

    Unlimited relief at the top marginal rate would be very useful, Richard.

    Osbornes bonus gift could come straight back rather than having to be gathered up by a few hedge fund bosses and then handed over after dinner with Samantha
    The Treasury does very well from bonuses, tim.

    Did you see the EBA table of EU bankers earning over €1 million which I posted the other day? It showed that the UK had 1,809 or 84% of 2,159 high earning bankers in Europe (excluding Switzerland) or €2.4 billion per year of taxable income.

    Be quiet, tim, don't wake the golden goose. It may fly away and lays its eggs elsewhere.
    Actually I'd prefer a 40% top rate and a property tax, makes a lot more sense and may help control damaging housing bubbles.
    OK, I'll do a deal.

    40% top rate now and a property tax on evidence of a housing bubble.

    Agree?

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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,604
    UKIP have selected 45 candidates so far. 5 are women:

    Chippenham: Julia Reid
    Cornwall SE: Stephanie McWilliam
    Norfolk M: Anna Hamilton
    Runneymede & Weybridge: Helen Knight
    Surrey E: Helena Windsor
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    Ely East

    Con 418 LD 322 UKIP 145 Lab 138 Ind 93
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    AnneJGP said:



    State funding of political parties is of course repulsive (and that includes the Short money).

    It's a bit of a conundrum. We don't want to pay for political parties ourselves, but we don't want other people to pay for them either in case they acquire too much influence. But if you donate to make the country a better place, you're obviously going to want a reasonable approximation of your definition of better - i.e. you want influence. Of course you do.

    So it does boil down to whether political parties are a public good.
    Personally I don't think it's a conundrum at all. The idea that money forcibly extracted on threat of imprisonment from honest taxpayers should be donated to a party, with whom they might violently disagree, is repulsive, especially since almost by definition any state funding will entrench the status quo. Conversely, if an honest citizen wants to give her own money to support a party because she thinks it will make the country a better place, why on earth shouldn't she?
    I have no problem at all with the TUs funding the political party they were instrumental in setting up to represent the interests of ordinary people. Equally, I have no problem at all with wealthy business-people funding a political party that represents their interests.

    But if society as a whole is now saying that one or the other or both leads to the donors acquiring too much influence, then it follows that no political party should have more money available to it than any other.

    Taxpayers are not consulted over any of the destinations of their money. Pacifists have no means of diverting their taxes from Defence to somewhere else. Anti-abortionists cannot divert their taxes from NHS abortion clinics.

    Society has deemed certain things to be public goods, worth paying for from taxation. If political parties are a necessary part of democracy, then they may be a public good in the same way.

    I do not know enough about the functioning of democratic systems to hazard a guess whether political parties are necessary.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    tim said:

    AveryLP said:

    A modest suggestion.

    State funding of political parties is of course repulsive (and that includes the Short money).

    But I don't see why we shouldn't have tax relief on donations, up to some maximum per tax year. After all, there's no real difference between a charitable donation (which you make because you selflessly want to help some cause), and a political donation (which you make because you selflessly want to make the country a better place).

    Unlimited relief at the top marginal rate would be very useful, Richard.

    Osbornes bonus gift could come straight back rather than having to be gathered up by a few hedge fund bosses and then handed over after dinner with Samantha
    The Treasury does very well from bonuses, tim.

    Did you see the EBA table of EU bankers earning over €1 million which I posted the other day? It showed that the UK had 1,809 or 84% of 2,159 high earning bankers in Europe (excluding Switzerland) or €2.4 billion per year of taxable income.

    Be quiet, tim, don't wake the golden goose. It may fly away and lays its eggs elsewhere.
    Actually I'd prefer a 40% top rate and a property tax, makes a lot more sense and may help control damaging housing bubbles.
    OK, I'll do a deal.

    40% top rate now and a property tax on evidence of a housing bubble.

    Agree?

    There's already a bubble in the parts of London where the bankers you refer to live, so done.
    Cash purchases of high value property in the prime boroughs over the past two months have been declining with consequent falls in property prices.

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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    Boston result UKIP 162 Con 87 LD 87 Lab 85

    UKIP on the move. The figures look really thin though (holiday hangover)?
    Ukip just replacing Eng Dem and BNP as the party of choice for protest in this ward
    UKIP wants to replace the whole Lab/Lib/Con misgoverning mess. Methinks you protest too much Mark.
    Look at the previous results and winners in this ward , BNP 2008 by election , Eng Dem 2011 , UKIP 2013 by election
This discussion has been closed.