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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Three tips on who might be Theresa May’s successor

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  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:
    McCain fails to note that the Brexit vote was about national sovereignty, and not the ethno-nationalism or protectionism he caricatures it as.
    Brexit has a dark strand of xenophobia running through it. That may not have motivated you, but it's there and needs to be excised before Brexit can succeed.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In pure competence and vision terms it ought to be Gove, but TSE assembles an impressive array of reasons why it won't be. Hunt is at risk of events - he's managing the NHS on a seriously inadequate budget and at some point a crisis will occur: we'll have to see how he handles it.

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.



    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go part time very quickly.

    You make the fundamental Tory error of seeing money as the only motivator. In most jobs other factors are equally or more important as motivators. Team spirit, workload, respect and self respect, altruism, tolerable work life balance, a supportive attitude to personal and professional development etc etc.

    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Cyclefree said:

    If the Tories think that painting Corbyn as a security risk will win them the election they are deluded.

    I don’t think that Corbyn should be in charge of the nation’s security. But I have made up my mind about him. He leads a party which has become institutionally anti-semitic and I find this such a moral failing that I simply cannot place my trust in leaders who preside over such a change in what used to be a decent party. I feel sorry for decent Labour people. But I cannot join them. There is a fundamental dishonesty and moral evasion in Corbyn and McDonnell’s leadership, despite all their claims to be principled. If they are ever put into power they will I think be found out and it will be a painful lesson for their supporters.

    But for now Corbyn speaks attractively and correctly identifies many problems. Still, any fool can do the latter. Even May has done so. It’s finding effective solutions which is difficult and both she and Corbyn are useless on that score.

    It is those voters who see someone speaking about austerity in a way that resonates and who appears to have answers whom the Tories need to persuade.

    The security line was tried (somewhat ineptly) at the last election and didn’t work. The Tories need to demolish his economic policies and have something positive to offer themselves. That’s the test for any possible replacement for Mrs May.

    How exactly has Labour become institutionally anti-semitic? It doesn't actually discriminate against Jews does it?
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Neither Gauke nor Lidington have got the "zing!" that leaders need to have. The Tories need to skip a generation, and I think they should go for Gavin Williamson. (unless someone with even more "zing" appears in the meantime.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In pure competence and vision terms it ought to be Gove, but TSE assembles an impressive array of reasons why it won't be. Hunt is at risk of events - he's managing the NHS on a seriously inadequate budget and at some point a crisis will occur: we'll have to see how he handles it.

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.

    Money matters, and to cope on projected budgets there needs to be explicit areas that fall outside the NHS, a nettle unlikely to be grasped in a hung parliament. Ultimately though, the NHS can run a bare bones service on a shoestring, but the biggest threat is the shortage of skilled personnel. The senior cadres are retiring early, and the junior ranks are not getting the adequate training to replace them.

    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go part time very quickly.

    You make the fundamental Tory error of seeing money as the only motivator. In most jobs other factors are equally or more important as motivators. Team spirit, workload, respect and self respect, altruism, tolerable work life balance, a supportive attitude to personal and professional development etc etc.

    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    In most jobs people can't afford to go part time and support their family unless they're supplemented by another income (eg their partners or welfare). The irony is that by overpaying GPs we are making part time work an option.

    GPs "team spirit" is up to them to build, they run their own team.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    If the Tories think that painting Corbyn as a security risk will win them the election they are deluded.

    I don’t think that Corbyn should be in charge of the nation’s security. But I have made up my mind about him. He leads a party which has become institutionally anti-semitic and I find this such a moral failing that I simply cannot place my trust in leaders who preside over such a change in what used to be a decent party. I feel sorry for decent Labour people. But I cannot join them. There is a fundamental dishonesty and moral evasion in Corbyn and McDonnell’s leadership, despite all their claims to be principled. If they are ever put into power they will I think be found out and it will be a painful lesson for their supporters.

    But for now Corbyn speaks attractively and correctly identifies many problems. Still, any fool can do the latter. Even May has done so. It’s finding effective solutions which is difficult and both she and Corbyn are useless on that score.

    It is those voters who see someone speaking about austerity in a way that resonates and who appears to have answers whom the Tories need to persuade.

    The security line was tried (somewhat ineptly) at the last election and didn’t work. The Tories need to demolish his economic policies and have something positive to offer themselves. That’s the test for any possible replacement for Mrs May.

    What do you mean by institutionally ant -semitic ? Are you comparing it with institutional racism ?
    While there certainly are individual anti-semites in Labour, and very close to the leadership, I wouldn't regard the party as a whole as institutionally anti-semitic.
    I'd say it's a very fair charge - the structures of the party are no longer interested in or capable of restraining a vice which seems to be almost culturally expected.

    If that is not what is normally meant by institutionally racist, I'm not sure what is.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    McCain fails to note that the Brexit vote was about national sovereignty, and not the ethno-nationalism or protectionism he caricatures it as.
    Brexit has a dark strand of xenophobia running through it. That may not have motivated you, but it's there and needs to be excised before Brexit can succeed.
    It was excised during the referendum by relegating Farage and his vile ilk to the also-rans of Leave.EU rather than Vote Leave.

    It was excised after the referendum by the complete electoral annihilation of UKIP.

    It will be fully excised on the day we Brexit by removing our MEPs and making Farage and his ilk ex-politicians.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, it is very windy here in the Lakes. A beautiful clear day so the hound will be walked, wood will be chopped and preparations made for a party later.

    I have - gulp! - written 32 thread headers in the last two years. So I would like to thank OGH and TSE for allowing me the privilege and you all for your comments and the lively debate. Thanks too to all the other very good header writers.

    Best wishes to all for a good celebration tonight, whatever you are doing, and for 2018.

    We are blessed with some well-written provocative thread-headers on here. Yours are consistently amongst the very best. Bravo.

    I hope we get to see more in 2018. (Although, you really need to work on the toe-curling puns, 80s music references and click-bait gratuitous abuse of Brexit, if you are to really prosper on pb.com....)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In pure competence and vision terms it ought to be Gove, but TSE assembles an impressive array of reasons why it won't be. Hunt is at risk of events - he's managing the NHS on a seriously inadequate budget and at some point a crisis will occur: we'll have to see how he handles it.

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.

    Money matters, and to cope on projected budgets there needs to be explicit areas that fall outside the NHS, a nettle unlikely to be grasped in a hung parliament. Ultimately though, the NHS can run a bare bones service on a shoestring, but the biggest threat is the shortage of skilled personnel. The senior cadres are retiring early, and the junior ranks are not getting the adequate training to replace them.

    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go part time very quickly.

    You make the fundamental Tory error of seeing money as the only motivator. In most jobs other factors are equally or more important as motivators. Team spirit, workload, respect and self respect, altruism, tolerable work life balance, a supportive attitude to personal and professional development etc etc.

    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    In most jobs people can't afford to go part time and support their family unless they're supplemented by another income (eg their partners or welfare). The irony is that by overpaying GPs we are making part time work an option.

    GPs "team spirit" is up to them to build, they run their own team.
    In my experience many GP’s work about a 12 hour day. Working 4 days a week seems reasonable.
  • Any mother who observed the NHS refusal to move from final-salary straight to defined-benefits is either; a fool, telling lies; or a self-obessed gob-shite. Clinicians first but patients last.

    Time to punish those whom look down on their funders. ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717
    edited December 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In pure competence and vision terms it ought to be Gove, but TSE assembles an impressive array of reasons why it won't be. Hunt is at risk of events - he's managing the NHS on a seriously inadequate budget and at some point a crisis will occur: we'll have to see how he handles it.

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.



    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    McCain fails to note that the Brexit vote was about national sovereignty, and not the ethno-nationalism or protectionism he caricatures it as.
    Brexit has a dark strand of xenophobia running through it. That may not have motivated you, but it's there and needs to be excised before Brexit can succeed.
    I saw an article not so long ago that stated that 25% of people were against immigration on principle. Perhaps that may fall in coming decades but I don't see how it can simply be ignored. Some voters are xenophobic, some are greedy, some are liars/cheats. We either believe in democracy i.e giving everyone a say or we don't. You can do your best to have a morally sound government but it's pointless to complain that the electorate ain't perfect.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited December 2017
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have a soft spot for Mrs May. She is from the same town as me. She is only a couple of years older than me. I lived in Maidenhead for 13 years and noticed just how conscientious she was as a local MP. I also approve of politicians stealing the policies of other politicians - it shows a commendable lack of ego. So I liked the way she purloined several of Ed Miliband's plans.

    So take my bias into account.

    But it seems to me that she is simply the best option the Tories have to get them over the line at the next election. Nobody will remember the details of what went wrong in 2017 in 4.5 years time. But if she lasts a couple of years she'll at least look like a survivor.

    There was a Survation poll over the summer comparing how the Tories would fare against Corbyn relative to May, with Rudd, Boris, Hammond and Davis as alternative leaders. Only Boris got a higher Tory voteshare than May and then only fractionally and only Davis saw a narrower gap with Labour and then only marginally. Both Rudd and Hammond got lower Tory voteshare than May and a bigger Labour lead than May, Hammond significantly so.
    These hypothetical polls are best taken with a large pinch of salt. If Boris, Rudd or whoever would have the same policies and campaign in precisely the same way as Theresa May did, then perhaps the poll might be valid but what would be the point of ever changing the leader if the new one would never do anything different?
    It does show though that no leader would automatically get a poll bounce relative to May.

    In 1990 by contrast polls showed both Major and Heseltine would get a poll bounce relative to Thatcher.
    Thatcher was associated with the poisonous poll tax, and Blair with Iraq. That is why there was a bounce. Theresa May is associated with shoes. ETA: So any improvement would come from policy and campaigning and not by getting shot of a hated leader with detested policies.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    edited December 2017
    Cyclefree said:

    If the Tories think that painting Corbyn as a security risk will win them the election they are deluded.

    I don’t think that Corbyn should be in charge of the nation’s security. But I have made up my mind about him. He leads a party which has become institutionally anti-semitic and I find this such a moral failing that I simply cannot place my trust in leaders who preside over such a change in what used to be a decent party. I feel sorry for decent Labour people. But I cannot join them. There is a fundamental dishonesty and moral evasion in Corbyn and McDonnell’s leadership, despite all their claims to be principled. If they are ever put into power they will I think be found out and it will be a painful lesson for their supporters.

    But for now Corbyn speaks attractively and correctly identifies many problems. Still, any fool can do the latter. Even May has done so. It’s finding effective solutions which is difficult and both she and Corbyn are useless on that score.

    It is those voters who see someone speaking about austerity in a way that resonates and who appears to have answers whom the Tories need to persuade.

    The security line was tried (somewhat ineptly) at the last election and didn’t work. The Tories need to demolish his economic policies and have something positive to offer themselves. That’s the test for any possible replacement for Mrs May.

    You state that the Labour party has become institutionally anti-semitic, but how come there are still quite a few Jewish Labour MPs? Even the founder of Momentum (Jon Lansman) is Jewish.

    There are many on the left (and right) who are unsympathetic to the Zionist state, but that is not necessarily synonymous with anti-semitism, although these views may overlap. One can also be anti-semitic and yet support the Zionist project, the prime example being Lord Balfour, who as PM was responsible for the Aliens Act of 1905. The Haavara agreement in August 1933, which Ken Livingstone referred to a little while ago and was berated for doing so, is another example.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717


    Yes, I was thinking about a technical Oscar. I agree that plot and characterisation were particularly weak.

    The central soldier character was essentially a coward, with only one motivation of escape. The film takes the fashionable view of soldier as victim, but in Hollywood they rather prefer more heroic images of the military.

    The Academy had the perfect opportunity this year, in the shape of Hacksaw Ridge - real life story of conscientous objector as ultimate war hero. They heaped Oscars on the pile of shite that was La La Land instead. I can't help thinking if the director had been other than Mel Gibson, it would have fared better. Still a top drawer war movie (if maybe 15-20 minutes too long).
    I quite liked La La Land and of course it was Moonlight which ended up with best picture
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    McCain fails to note that the Brexit vote was about national sovereignty, and not the ethno-nationalism or protectionism he caricatures it as.
    Brexit has a dark strand of xenophobia running through it. That may not have motivated you, but it's there and needs to be excised before Brexit can succeed.
    It was excised during the referendum by relegating Farage and his vile ilk to the also-rans of Leave.EU rather than Vote Leave.

    It was excised after the referendum by the complete electoral annihilation of UKIP.

    It will be fully excised on the day we Brexit by removing our MEPs and making Farage and his ilk ex-politicians.
    I fear you're naive
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In pure competence and vision terms it ought to be Gove, but TSE assembles an impressive array of reasons why it won't be. Hunt is at risk of events - he's managing the NHS on a seriously inadequate budget and at some point a crisis will occur: we'll have to see how he handles it.

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.

    Money matters, and to cope on projected budgets there needs to be explicit areas that fall outside the NHS, a nettle unlikely to be grasped in a hung parliament. Ultimately though, the NHS can run a bare bones service on a shoestring, but the biggest threat is the shortage of skilled personnel. The senior cadres are retiring early, and the junior ranks are not getting the adequate training to replace them.

    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go part time very quickly.

    You make the fundamental Tory error of seeing money as the only motivator. In most jobs other factors are equally or more important as motivators. Team spirit, workload, respect and self respect, altruism, tolerable work life balance, a supportive attitude to personal and professional development etc etc.

    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Like I said, you make the fundamental Tory error of seeing the issue purely in terms of money. It isn't.
    No, GPs get masses of holiday too!
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    maaarsh said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    If the Tories think that painting Corbyn as a security risk will win them the election they are deluded.

    I don’t think that Corbyn should be in charge of the nation’s security. But I have made up my mind about him. He leads a party which has become institutionally anti-semitic and I find this such a moral failing that I simply cannot place my trust in leaders who preside over such a change in what used to be a decent party. I feel sorry for decent Labour people. But I cannot join them. There is a fundamental dishonesty and moral evasion in Corbyn and McDonnell’s leadership, despite all their claims to be principled. If they are ever put into power they will I think be found out and it will be a painful lesson for their supporters.

    But for now Corbyn speaks attractively and correctly identifies many problems. Still, any fool can do the latter. Even May has done so. It’s finding effective solutions which is difficult and both she and Corbyn are useless on that score.

    It is those voters who see someone speaking about austerity in a way that resonates and who appears to have answers whom the Tories need to persuade.

    The security line was tried (somewhat ineptly) at the last election and didn’t work. The Tories need to demolish his economic policies and have something positive to offer themselves. That’s the test for any possible replacement for Mrs May.

    What do you mean by institutionally ant -semitic ? Are you comparing it with institutional racism ?
    While there certainly are individual anti-semites in Labour, and very close to the leadership, I wouldn't regard the party as a whole as institutionally anti-semitic.
    I'd say it's a very fair charge - the structures of the party are no longer interested in or capable of restraining a vice which seems to be almost culturally expected.

    If that is not what is normally meant by institutionally racist, I'm not sure what is.
    I still don't understand. The party had a leader with a Jewish background until recently, has several Jewish MPs and plenty of Jewish members and supporters. Ken Livingstone's insensitive comments led to him being disciplined by the party. Obviously this is an issue where you need to be vigilant, but I really don't see how anyone can honestly make this accusation.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    All this talk of traitors needs to stop.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    HYUFD said:


    Yes, I was thinking about a technical Oscar. I agree that plot and characterisation were particularly weak.

    The central soldier character was essentially a coward, with only one motivation of escape. The film takes the fashionable view of soldier as victim, but in Hollywood they rather prefer more heroic images of the military.

    The Academy had the perfect opportunity this year, in the shape of Hacksaw Ridge - real life story of conscientous objector as ultimate war hero. They heaped Oscars on the pile of shite that was La La Land instead. I can't help thinking if the director had been other than Mel Gibson, it would have fared better. Still a top drawer war movie (if maybe 15-20 minutes too long).
    I quite liked La La Land and of course it was Moonlight which ended up with best picture
    Eventually!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have a soft spot for Mrs May. She is from the same town as me. She is only a couple of years older than me. I lived in Maidenhead for 13 years and noticed just how conscientious she was as a local MP. I also approve of politicians stealing the policies of other politicians - it shows a commendable lack of ego. So I liked the way she purloined several of Ed Miliband's plans.

    So take my bias into account.

    But it seems to me that she is simply the best option the Tories have to get them over the line at the next election. Nobody will remember the details of what went wrong in 2017 in 4.5 years time. But if she lasts a couple of years she'll at least look like a survivor.

    There was a Survation poll over the summer comparing how the Tories would fare against Corbyn relative to May, with Rudd, Boris, Hammond and Davis as alternative leaders. Only Boris got a higher Tory voteshare than May and then only fractionally and only Davis saw a narrower gap with Labour and then only marginally. Both Rudd and Hammond got lower Tory voteshare than May and a bigger Labour lead than May, Hammond significantly so.
    These hypothetical polls are best taken with a large pinch of salt. If Boris, Rudd or whoever would have the same policies and campaign in precisely the same way as Theresa May did, then perhaps the poll might be valid but what would be the point of ever changing the leader if the new one would never do anything different?
    It does show though that no leader would automatically get a poll bounce relative to May.

    In 1990 by contrast polls showed both Major and Heseltine would get a poll bounce relative to Thatcher.
    Thatcher was associated with the poisonous poll tax, and Blair with Iraq. That is why there was a bounce. Theresa May is associated with shoes. ETA: So any improvement would come from policy and campaigning and not by getting shot of a hated leader with detested policies.
    The unpopular policies of June ie the dementia tax and ending free school lunches and the triple lock and WFA have all been dumped now anyway.

    Even on Brexit May is heading more towards a deal with the EU than looked likely at the time of the general election.
  • Tracey Crouch.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    'Gauke also spent six years working as a minister in George Osborne’s Treasury, he will have learned from the best during those six years.'

    Civil servants presumably? Worth noting that Osborne and perhaps the Treasury more generally were never convinced by IDS's scheme.

    Osborne’s Treasury is what’s behind the current implementation issues, as he didn’t want to fund the transition between old and new schemes, only seeing short term borrowing numbers rather the huge long term savings from UC.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In pure competence and vision terms it ought to be Gove, but TSE assembles an impressive array of reasons why it won't be. Hunt is at risk of events - he's managing the NHS on a seriously inadequate budget and at some point a crisis will occur: we'll have to see how he handles it.

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.


    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    You could probably make a saving by abolishing prescription charges .... which are now wildly out of line with the actual costs of the medicines .....and then charging for low level complaints, although, given the number of ‘Just About” and “Not Quite’ Managing patients that would be as fraught with problems as Universal Credit.
    In my experience and observation private medicine is good for relatively, simple short term situations; if you need follow-up stick to the NHS.
  • Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go part time very quickly.

    You make the fundamental Tory error of seeing money as the only motivator. In most jobs other factors are equally or more important as motivators. Team spirit, workload, respect and self respect, altruism, tolerable work life balance, a supportive attitude to personal and professional development etc etc.

    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.

    In most jobs people can't afford to go part time and support their family unless they're supplemented by another income (eg their partners or welfare). The irony is that by overpaying GPs we are making part time work an option.

    GPs "team spirit" is up to them to build, they run their own team.
    In my experience many GP’s work about a 12 hour day. Working 4 days a week seems reasonable.
    I was responding to Dr Fox who said "part time".

    I would not call 12 hours a day, 4 days a week "part time", I'd call it shift work.

    Any GPs working 12 hr/day for 4 days are not part timers and so not what Dr Fox was speaking about or I was responding too.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    McCain fails to note that the Brexit vote was about national sovereignty, and not the ethno-nationalism or protectionism he caricatures it as.
    Brexit has a dark strand of xenophobia running through it. That may not have motivated you, but it's there and needs to be excised before Brexit can succeed.
    It was excised during the referendum by relegating Farage and his vile ilk to the also-rans of Leave.EU rather than Vote Leave.

    It was excised after the referendum by the complete electoral annihilation of UKIP.

    It will be fully excised on the day we Brexit by removing our MEPs and making Farage and his ilk ex-politicians.
    I fear you're naive
    Perhaps. I prefer the term optimistic.

    There are fewer elected UKIP politicians today than there was pre-referendum.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    If you knock over all of the Leavers in the Cabinet (plus the Moggster) then there is only one stand-out candidate from that wing of the party:

    #Esther4Leader

    Currently being wasted in the Whip's office. If May had any sense McVey would be doing media interviews 24/7.

    We agree on very little politically but on this +1
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Jonathan said:

    All this talk of traitors needs to stop.

    That's just the kind of thing a person like you would say.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go part time very quickly.

    You make the fundamental Tory error of seeing money as the only motivator. In most jobs other factors are equally or more important as motivators. Team spirit, workload, respect and self respect, altruism, tolerable work life balance, a supportive attitude to personal and professional development etc etc.

    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.

    In most jobs people can't afford to go part time and support their family unless they're supplemented by another income (eg their partners or welfare). The irony is that by overpaying GPs we are making part time work an option.

    GPs "team spirit" is up to them to build, they run their own team.
    In my experience many GP’s work about a 12 hour day. Working 4 days a week seems reasonable.
    I was responding to Dr Fox who said "part time".

    I would not call 12 hours a day, 4 days a week "part time", I'd call it shift work.

    Any GPs working 12 hr/day for 4 days are not part timers and so not what Dr Fox was speaking about or I was responding too.
    I hope I won’t branded as sexist when I write that part of that issue is the feminisation of medicine. The middle and upper class girls who become doctors often experienced their mothers being at home, and want the same for their children.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    McCain fails to note that the Brexit vote was about national sovereignty, and not the ethno-nationalism or protectionism he caricatures it as.
    Brexit has a dark strand of xenophobia running through it. That may not have motivated you, but it's there and needs to be excised before Brexit can succeed.
    It was excised during the referendum by relegating Farage and his vile ilk to the also-rans of Leave.EU rather than Vote Leave.

    It was excised after the referendum by the complete electoral annihilation of UKIP.

    It will be fully excised on the day we Brexit by removing our MEPs and making Farage and his ilk ex-politicians.
    I fear you're naive
    Perhaps. I prefer the term optimistic.

    There are fewer elected UKIP politicians today than there was pre-referendum.
    Xenophobia is sadly not isolated to UKIP. History suggests that Brexit, if implemented will not be the end. Foreigners will get the blame for every bump and hiccup.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In pure competence and vision terms it ought to be Gove, but TSE assembles an impressive array of reasons why it won't be. Hunt is at risk of events - he's managing the NHS on a seriously inadequate budget and at some point a crisis will occur: we'll have to see how he handles it.

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.

    Money matters, and to cope on projected budgets there needs to be explicit areas that fall outside the NHS, a nettle unlikely to be grasped in a hung parliament. Ultimately though, the NHS can run a bare bones service on a shoestring, but the biggest threat is the shortage of skilled personnel. The senior cadres are retiring early, and the junior ranks are not getting the adequate training to replace them.

    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    And 'full time' GPs only work 4 days a week.
    Jeez - another +1. Have you joined the Conservative party? For me the biggest structural problem with the NHS began with the stranglehold on it since its creation by the doctors who remai the biggest element of privatisation in it by far.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    All this talk of traitors needs to stop.

    That's just the kind of thing a person like you would say.
    Good.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    felix said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In pure competence and vision terms it ought to be Gove, but TSE assembles an impressive array of reasons why it won't be. Hunt is at risk of events - he's managing the NHS on a seriously inadequate budget and at some point a crisis will occur: we'll have to see how he handles it.

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.

    Money matters, and to cope on projected budgets there needs to be explicit areas that fall outside the NHS, a nettle unlikely to be grasped in a hung parliament. Ultimately though, the NHS can run a bare bones service on a shoestring, but the biggest threat is the shortage of skilled personnel. The senior cadres are retiring early, and the junior ranks are not getting the adequate training to replace them.

    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    And 'full time' GPs only work 4 days a week.
    Jeez - another +1. Have you joined the Conservative party? For me the biggest structural problem with the NHS began with the stranglehold on it since its creation by the doctors who remai the biggest element of privatisation in it by far.
    And who had further control handed to them by that fool Lansley, aided and abtted by Cameron and Clegg.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.



    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.



    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In pure competence and vision terms it ought to be Gove, but TSE assembles an impressive array of reasons why it won't be. Hunt is at risk of events - he's managing the NHS on a seriously inadequate budget and at some point a crisis will occur: we'll have to see how he handles it.

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.


    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    You could probably make a saving by abolishing prescription charges .... which are now wildly out of line with the actual costs of the medicines .....and then charging for low level complaints, although, given the number of ‘Just About” and “Not Quite’ Managing patients that would be as fraught with problems as Universal Credit.
    In my experience and observation private medicine is good for relatively, simple short term situations; if you need follow-up stick to the NHS.
    If they are 'low level complaints' then most could be managed without a GP visit anyway
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go part time very quickly.

    You make the fundamental Tory error of seeing money as the only motivator. In most jobs other factors are equally or more important as motivators. Team spirit, workload, respect and self respect, altruism, tolerable work life balance, a supportive attitude to personal and professional development etc etc.

    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.

    In most jobs people can't afford to go part time and support their family unless they're supplemented by another income (eg their partners or welfare). The irony is that by overpaying GPs we are making part time work an option.

    GPs "team spirit" is up to them to build, they run their own team.
    In my experience many GP’s work about a 12 hour day. Working 4 days a week seems reasonable.
    I was responding to Dr Fox who said "part time".

    I would not call 12 hours a day, 4 days a week "part time", I'd call it shift work.

    Any GPs working 12 hr/day for 4 days are not part timers and so not what Dr Fox was speaking about or I was responding too.
    I hope I won’t branded as sexist when I write that part of that issue is the feminisation of medicine. The middle and upper class girls who become doctors often experienced their mothers being at home, and want the same for their children.
    True. And it’s taboo to say it, but we waste a lot of money training people who have a career of about three years before having children and ‘retiring’ for a decade or two.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In pure competence and vision terms it ought to be Gove, but TSE assembles an impressive array of reasons why it won't be. Hunt is at risk of events - he's managing the NHS on a seriously inadequate budget and at some point a crisis will occur: we'll have to see how he handles it.

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.

    Money matters, and to cope on projected budgets there needs to be explicit areas that fall outside the NHS, a nettle unlikely to be grasped in a hung parliament. Ultimately though, the NHS can run a bare bones service on a shoestring, but the biggest threat is the shortage of skilled personnel. The senior cadres are retiring early, and the junior ranks are not getting the adequate training to replace them.

    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    And 'full time' GPs only work 4 days a week.
    Jeez - another +1. Have you joined the Conservative party? For me the biggest structural problem with the NHS began with the stranglehold on it since its creation by the doctors who remai the biggest element of privatisation in it by far.
    And who had further control handed to them by that fool Lansley, aided and abtted by Cameron and Clegg.
    And the huge pay rises handed to them by the previous Labour government. The most dangerous groups in society are not the old aristocrats but rather the new self-titled meritocrats [ Adonis being a prime example] whose overriding motive in all they say and do is to preserve their sense of entitlement and all the privileges which go with it. They are the scourge of the modern world
  • Jonathan said:

    SNIP....

    Dr '2-b-4' Planck:

    Since the election of Millitwuntband your emoticon has displayed nothing but a negative attitude. When will you promote something positive?

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.




    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    No it doesn't - it moves us closer to the European style mixed systems which continue to outperfom the UK significantly in most cases.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, .
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    No it wouldn't, and neither would excluding minor complaints. Insurance excludes nearly all mental health and chronic disease (ie over 6 weeks in duration), maternity and paeds. As a result private hospitals rarely cover these. Additionally, work related health insurance doesnt cover pensioners and those on invalidity benefits, which are the main clientele of the NHS. The majority of healthcare expenditure is over the last 2 years of life. Minor complaints are perhaps a nuisance, but are cheap to treat, so not a major drain.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941



    No it wouldn't, and neither would excluding minor complaints. Insurance excludes nearly all mental health and chronic disease (ie over 6 weeks in duration), maternity and paeds. As a result private hospitals rarely cover these. Additionally, work related health insurance doesnt cover pensioners and those on invalidity benefits, which are the main clientele of the NHS. The majority of healthcare expenditure is over the last 2 years of life. Minor complaints are perhaps a nuisance, but are cheap to treat, so not a major drain.

    Sounds like the majority is actually spent on working age population, probably by virtue of there being a lot more of them!

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/01/ageing-britain-two-fifths-nhs-budget-spent-over-65s
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, .
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    No it wouldn't, and neither would excluding minor complaints. Insurance excludes nearly all mental health and chronic disease (ie over 6 weeks in duration), maternity and paeds. As a result private hospitals rarely cover these. Additionally, work related health insurance doesnt cover pensioners and those on invalidity benefits, which are the main clientele of the NHS. The majority of healthcare expenditure is over the last 2 years of life. Minor complaints are perhaps a nuisance, but are cheap to treat, so not a major drain.
    So what, that would still see a lot of illnesses dealt with by private healthcare which would not need to be provided by the NHS. The UK is the only major Western economy which does not have an insurance element to its healthcare coverage or does not require its wealthiest citizens to take out private health insurance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.



    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    Yes, that would be very sensible
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Headline today of Corbyn saying he is staking out the centre ground - he's gone native in the establishment! I thought part of his appeal was not being part of the centre.

    Except Corbyn's idea of the 'centre ground' is 'sharing the wealth we create' and attacking 'the self serving wealthy elite' so basically it is the 'centre ground' on the Left between the policies of Michael Foot and Mao!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42524076
    Whereas Tories think the Centre Ground is supporting a system like we have with Virgin East Coast whereby

    Heads the Billionaire wins ans Tails the Taxpayer and Rail Travellers lose.

    Oh and the centreground is where the Government starves low paid workers into foodbanks and fills the doorways up with the homeless all to sustain the aforesaid Billionaires increase in wealth.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717
    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.



    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... nce even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    If we had the US system all healthcare treatment would require having an insurance policy unless you were elderly in which case you would get Medicare or very poor in which case you might get Medicaid.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.




    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    No it doesn't - it moves us closer to the European style mixed systems which continue to outperfom the UK significantly in most cases.
    Though they are under a demographic squeeze even greater than our own.

    Dutch medicine seems pretty well run to me. There is much we could achieve by becoming more like our continental neighbours.

    British social conservatism is heavily tilted to the NHS and similar era welfare state. Those Stoke on Trent Tories are rarely smash the state free marketeers, more often they want a bigger slice of the state cake for themselves. That is the root of the Conservative dilemma.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Headline today of Corbyn saying he is staking out the centre ground - he's gone native in the establishment! I thought part of his appeal was not being part of the centre.

    Except Corbyn's idea of the 'centre ground' is 'sharing the wealth we create' and attacking 'the self serving wealthy elite' so basically it is the 'centre ground' on the Left between the policies of Michael Foot and Mao!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42524076
    Whereas Tories think the Centre Ground is supporting a system like we have with Virgin East Coast whereby

    Heads the Billionaire wins ans Tails the Taxpayer and Rail Travellers lose.

    Oh and the centreground is where the Government starves low paid workers into foodbanks and fills the doorways up with the homeless all to sustain the aforesaid Billionaires increase in wealth.
    Having travelled on the old nationalised BR and Virgin post privatisation, Virgin is miles better.

    In actual fact unemployment is now half the level Labour left, the Government has introduced a living wage and the top income tax rate is still higher than most of the New Labour years
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.



    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... nce even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    If we had the US system all healthcare treatment would require having an insurance policy unless you were elderly in which case you would get Medicare or very poor in which case you might get Medicaid.
    You mean the most expensive system in the World?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.




    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    No it doesn't - it moves us closer to the European style mixed systems which continue to outperfom the UK significantly in most cases.
    Though they are under a demographic squeeze even greater than our own.

    Dutch medicine seems pretty well run to me. There is much we could achieve by becoming more like our continental neighbours.

    British social conservatism is heavily tilted to the NHS and similar era welfare state. Those Stoke on Trent Tories are rarely smash the state free marketeers, more often they want a bigger slice of the state cake for themselves. That is the root of the Conservative dilemma.
    If so, what causes them to vote Tory? I'd be interested to see some polling on that.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Yorkcity said:
    Given that it's probably taxed at the additional rate, it could pay for everything that is claimed in the article without him doing anything.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:



    No it wouldn't, and neither would excluding minor complaints. Insurance excludes nearly all mental health and chronic disease (ie over 6 weeks in duration), maternity and paeds. As a result private hospitals rarely cover these. Additionally, work related health insurance doesnt cover pensioners and those on invalidity benefits, which are the main clientele of the NHS. The majority of healthcare expenditure is over the last 2 years of life. Minor complaints are perhaps a nuisance, but are cheap to treat, so not a major drain.

    Sounds like the majority is actually spent on working age population, probably by virtue of there being a lot more of them!

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/01/ageing-britain-two-fifths-nhs-budget-spent-over-65s
    Yes, that is quite true, this bit being quite pertinent:

    "The data shows that an 85-year-old man costs the NHS about seven times more on average than a man in his late 30s. Health spending per person steeply increases after the age of 50, with people aged 85 and over costing the NHS an average of £7,000 a year. Spending on health services across all age groups is £2,069, according to Treasury analysis."

    The expenditure on those under 65 is not so much on the working population, as the non working one. Such is the nature of chronic disease.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.



    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... nce even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor ght.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    If we had the US system all healthcare treatment would require having an insurance policy unless you were elderly in which case you would get Medicare or very poor in which case you might get Medicaid.
    You mean the most expensive system in the World?
    I was not advocating the US model, more the French or Australian model.

    Though the best US healthcare for those who can afford it is much better than that provided in the NHS.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited December 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    .
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    Not at all, there would be no change to NHS entitlement or any changes to the way the NHS works, it’s purely a finance bill issue that removes the current disincentive for employers to provide private health insurance to their staff.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725


    Yes, that would be very sensible

    Sensible in that the system becomes about ability to pay rather than need.

    Try that in the next Manifesto it will make the Granny House Theft policy look like a picnic.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.




    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for t.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    No it doesn't - it moves us closer to the European style mixed systems which continue to outperfom the UK significantly in most cases.
    Though they are under a demographic squeeze even greater than our own.

    Dutch medicine seems pretty well run to me. There is much we could achieve by becoming more like our continental neighbours.

    British social conservatism is heavily tilted to the NHS and similar era welfare state. Those Stoke on Trent Tories are rarely smash the state free marketeers, more often they want a bigger slice of the state cake for themselves. That is the root of the Conservative dilemma.
    If so, what causes them to vote Tory? I'd be interested to see some polling on that.
    Brexit was the issue this year.

    Once that is out of the way, social conservatives may prefere Labour Welfarism over free markets, particularly considering the age and demographics of those Tory WWC voters.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    Jonathan said:
    What an excellent article. John McCain is a natural Liberal Democrat. I can't understand how he remains in the Republican Party.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources is becoming critical in certain areas. Hunt's biggest flaw is in failing to create a positive work culture. The new junior contract is wrecking all continuity of care, and continuity of medical teams. Continuity is the basis of learning in postgraduate training, as experience without seeing results is very poor motivation.



    I am not optomistic about the long term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... nce even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor ght.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    If we had the US system all healthcare treatment would require having an insurance policy unless you were elderly in which case you would get Medicare or very poor in which case you might get Medicaid.
    You mean the most expensive system in the World?
    I was not advocating the US model, more the French or Australian model.

    Though the best US healthcare for those who can afford it is much better than that provided in the NHS.
    Where will the extra money come from? France spends more on health than we do.
  • Rebourne_FluffyRebourne_Fluffy Posts: 225
    edited December 2017
    Barnesian said:

    Jonathan said:
    What an excellent article. John McCain is a natural Liberal Democrat. I can't understand how he remains in the Republican Party.
    Because he won't sell his country down-the-river for a quick-buck*? :tumbleweed:

    * Knighthoods and EU-pensions.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    Tory end of year report
    Areas where growth was achieved:

    Foodbanks
    NHS privatisation
    Poverty
    In-work poverty
    Wealth of top 1%
    Homelessness
    Rents
    Benefit sanctions
    Universal credit crises
    National debt
    Wage stagnation
    Zero hour contracts
    Inflation
    Trade gap
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited December 2017

    Tory end of year report
    Areas where growth was achieved:

    Missed out the economy on that one.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Tory end of year report
    Areas where growth was achieved:

    Foodbanks
    NHS privatisation
    Poverty
    In-work poverty
    Wealth of top 1%
    Homelessness
    Rents
    Benefit sanctions
    Universal credit crises
    National debt
    Wage stagnation
    Zero hour contracts
    Inflation
    Trade gap

    Maybe you would like to show how many of those applied at the end of the last Labour Govt. end of year report 2009 too?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    .
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    Not at all, there would be no change to NHS entitlement or any changes to the way the NHS works, it’s purely a finance bill issue that removes the current disincentive for employers to provide private health insurance to their staff.
    Why not just make private health insurance tax deductable? That would mean that not just employees of large firms would benefit, but all employees, self employed and even wealthier pensioners.

    My suspicion is that the cost to the Treasury would be too much.
  • Tory end of year report
    Areas where growth was achieved:

    Foodbanks
    NHS privatisation
    Poverty
    In-work poverty
    Wealth of top 1%
    Homelessness
    Rents
    Benefit sanctions
    Universal credit crises
    National debt
    Wage stagnation
    Zero hour contracts
    Inflation
    Trade gap

    Maybe you would like to show how many of those applied at the end of the last Labour Govt. end of year report 2009 too?
    You know Labour lost?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited December 2017



    Why not just make private health insurance tax deductable? That would mean that not just employees of large firms would benefit, but all employees, self employed and even wealthier pensioners.

    My suspicion is that the cost to the Treasury would be too much.

    Wouldn't that be worse of the exchequer? You'd be moving it from being taxed, to being tax deductible?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    No it wouldn't, and neither would excluding minor complaints. Insurance excludes nearly all mental health and chronic disease (ie over 6 weeks in duration), maternity and paeds. As a result private hospitals rarely cover these. Additionally, work related health insurance doesnt cover pensioners and those on invalidity benefits, which are the main clientele of the NHS. The majority of healthcare expenditure is over the last 2 years of life. Minor complaints are perhaps a nuisance, but are cheap to treat, so not a major drain.
    It only needs to get 10% of the demand out to make a huge difference. Employers are generally in favour of insurance, because it results in fewer days off sick or unable to work while waiting for an operation. Employees don’t like it because they get a tax bill for something they hope not to use. It makes no sense to actively disincentivise people to avoid the NHS where possible, especially for things like sporting injuries and various types of accident recovery which make up a reasonable proportion of younger people’s interaction with the NHS.
  • "Growth in 'Wage-Stagnation'" is an oxymoron. Please learn to speak The Queen's English.
  • Fascinating that the Prime Minister implicitly acknowledges in her New Year message that Britons are not currently feeling confidence and pride.
  • The NHS crisis is not so much financial as demographic. Older people have much greater health needs and Britain continues to get older. NHS services will need to be cut or charges will need to be introduced or other public services will need to be cut or tax will need to go up. Or, more likely, a combination of all of these.
  • Fascinating that the Prime Minister implicitly acknowledges in her New Year message that Britons are not currently feeling confidence and pride.

    And why should the Scots, Welsh, Ulster-Jocks (and other bog-trotters) feel confidence and pride? Only England have qualified for FIFA 2018. :)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    RobD said:

    Tory end of year report
    Areas where growth was achieved:

    Missed out the economy on that one.
    And employment, and exports.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    .
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... NHS staff, including managers, are very highly motivated, albeit not by money, but are bing worn down by the increasing demand, and not simply byy increasing numbers. Complaints, in the sense of disease, which were untreatable even 10 years ago are now treatable and the public is too often led to believe that it’s only’ the system’ which prevents them being treated.

    The cheerfulness and empathy which I was treated at the local radiotherapy unit a few months ago was a pleasure to experience even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS is to reduce it through measures like charging for low level medical complaints and encouraging more who can afford it to take out private health insurance.

    However neither main party is really looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor reverse the benefit-in-kind tax arrangements on employer-provided health insurance. We should be encouraging all large employers to offer health insurance to everyone who works for them, It would make a huge difference to NHS demand almost overnight.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    Not at all, there would be no change to NHS entitlement or any changes to the way the NHS works, it’s purely a finance bill issue that removes the current disincentive for employers to provide private health insurance to their staff.
    Why not just make private health insurance tax deductable? That would mean that not just employees of large firms would benefit, but all employees, self employed and even wealthier pensioners.

    My suspicion is that the cost to the Treasury would be too much.
    I’d be in favour of that in theory, but yes would need to see the numbers. Making it tax deductible for basic rate taxpayers absolutely though.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    OT Many thanks for two recent tips here. I can't remember who gave them, but thanks.

    Next German Chancellor: I got on Jens Spahn early yesterday at 50s. Now 7 on Betfair.
    Next Russian President: I got lots on Putin at 1.06. Still available at 1.05.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    Barnesian said:

    Jonathan said:
    What an excellent article. John McCain is a natural Liberal Democrat. I can't understand how he remains in the Republican Party.
    It doesn't read like an article written by a Republican.
  • Fascinating that the Prime Minister implicitly acknowledges in her New Year message that Britons are not currently feeling confidence and pride.

    And why should the Scots, Welsh, Ulster-Jocks (and other bog-trotters) feel confidence and pride? Only England have qualified for FIFA 2018. :)
    Are you saying Scotland cannee dae it cause they didnae qualify?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    The NHS crisis is not so much financial as demographic. Older people have much greater health needs and Britain continues to get older. NHS services will need to be cut or charges will need to be introduced or other public services will need to be cut or tax will need to go up. Or, more likely, a combination of all of these.

    The very people who need the NHS are those who vote Tory. Which is why it is nonsense for Labour to continually claim the NHS is not safe in Tory hands....the Tories HAVE to find a way to keep their voter base satisfied. But that does not augur well for the Millenials.
  • Where will the extra money come from? France spends more on health than we do.

    The majority of the difference between the UK and France in terms of paying for health care comes from private health insurance paid by employers and employees. 85% of French citizens have some form of additional private insurance over and above what they pay to the Government. This accounts for about 23% of all health spending.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Tory end of year report
    Areas where growth was achieved:

    Foodbanks
    NHS privatisation
    Poverty
    In-work poverty
    Wealth of top 1%
    Homelessness
    Rents
    Benefit sanctions
    Universal credit crises
    National debt
    Wage stagnation
    Zero hour contracts
    Inflation
    Trade gap

    Maybe you would like to show how many of those applied at the end of the last Labour Govt. end of year report 2009 too?
    You know Labour lost?
    Because they failed to address many of those items in BJO's list....

    For 13 years.
  • Barnesian said:

    OT Many thanks for two recent tips here. I can't remember who gave them, but thanks.

    Next German Chancellor: I got on Jens Spahn early yesterday at 50s. Now 7 on Betfair.
    Next Russian President: I got lots on Putin at 1.06. Still available at 1.05.

    fingers cross Merkel will go, my bank balance would be pleased...
  • Fascinating that the Prime Minister implicitly acknowledges in her New Year message that Britons are not currently feeling confidence and pride.

    And why should the Scots, Welsh, Ulster-Jocks (and other bog-trotters) feel confidence and pride? Only England have qualified for FIFA 2018. :)
    Are you saying Scotland cannee dae it cause they didnae qualify?
    Scotland has a mini-parliament: They can choose any path they wish (with my consent). What we cannot expect is a formula to transfer from the English footie-team to our northern cousins.

    As it is the Winter Olympics [next year] I hope the Scots get behind the GB-Hurling team (Women). Show some pride Scotland!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... nce even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS eally looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor ght.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    If we had the US system all healthcare treatment would require having an insurance policy unless you were elderly in which case you would get Medicare or very poor in which case you might get Medicaid.
    You mean the most expensive system in the World?
    I was not advocating the US model, more the French or Australian model.

    Though the best US healthcare for those who can afford it is much better than that provided in the NHS.
    Where will the extra money come from? France spends more on health than we do.
    In France taking out government provided health insurance is compulsory for employees and the government refunds 70% of the costs of most GP visits and 100% for serious complaints. You can also take out private health insurance on top of that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,717
    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    Jonathan said:
    What an excellent article. John McCain is a natural Liberal Democrat. I can't understand how he remains in the Republican Party.
    It doesn't read like an article written by a Republican.
    Kerry of course wanted McCain to be his VP. A Lieberman and McCain independent ticket would have been interesting in 2004
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited December 2017

    Where will the extra money come from? France spends more on health than we do.

    The majority of the difference between the UK and France in terms of paying for health care comes from private health insurance paid by employers and employees. 85% of French citizens have some form of additional private insurance over and above what they pay to the Government. This accounts for about 23% of all health spending.

    The point is the alternative systems that are proposed turn out to be more expensive. The dirty little secret of the NHS is it is cheap and efficient: something governments of both stripes have been trying to fix.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    BBC Radio 4: "At 1pm Mark Mardell asks whether democracy has had its day".
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited December 2017

    Where will the extra money come from? France spends more on health than we do.

    The majority of the difference between the UK and France in terms of paying for health care comes from private health insurance paid by employers and employees. 85% of French citizens have some form of additional private insurance over and above what they pay to the Government. This accounts for about 23% of all health spending.

    It's always amazing that the debate on the NHS is always presented as its the NHS as it is now or it's a US style free for all privatised system. Yet no one ever suggests looking at models in much of Europe that seem to work.

    The NHS doesn't seem to be sustainable in its current form long term - but no government would have the guts to move towards the sort of socialised insurance models that exist in many other nations and generally work quite well. The NHS isn't free - someone has to pay for it.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    It's not already in crisis? Makes A Change. Dr foxinsox has said he's not the worst health secretary we've had, so he might handle it ok.
    I don't think Hunt particularly bad, but the stretch on resources term prospects of medicine in the UK.
    The average GP gets an average £90 000 a year, comfortably in the top 10% of earners and just under 4 times the average UK salary.

    There are far more things to be worried about than medics.
    Yet, GP's have very poor morale and either quit or go
    There is much that could be done to improve morale and often quite cheaply. I am not agitating for a pay rise.
    GPs are amongst the top earners in the UK with the most holiday, I have little time for complaints from them.

    Having spent a lifetime in and around the NHS and now being a (far too frequent) patient ..... not that bad really....... I agree with Dr Fox. Most ..... pretty well all ..... nce even if the necessity wasn’t!
    Well the only way to cut down on demand in the NHS eally looking to that yet
    I’ve been waiting for years to see a Chancellor ght.
    That takes us towards the disastrous US system, which we truly must do everything to avoid.
    If we had the US system all healthcare treatment would require having an insurance policy unless you were elderly in which case you would get Medicare or very poor in which case you might get Medicaid.
    You mean the most expensive system in the World?
    I was not advocating the US model, more the French or Australian model.

    Though the best US healthcare for those who can afford it is much better than that provided in the NHS.
    Where will the extra money come from? France spends more on health than we do.
    In France taking out government provided health insurance is compulsory for employees and the government refunds 70% of the costs of most GP visits and 100% for serious complaints. You can also take out private health insurance on top of that.
    We have NICs; they have compulsory insurance. Their way is more expensive.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    AndyJS said:

    BBC Radio 4: "At 1pm Mark Mardell asks whether democracy has had its day".

    Or is it just democracy is only a problem when it delivers results BBC journos don't like!
  • AndyJS said:

    BBC Radio 4: "At 1pm Mark Mardell asks whether democracy has had its day".

    Clickbait comes to Radio 4. What a time to be alive.
  • BJO more fake news than a Russian twitter bot....
  • Where will the extra money come from? France spends more on health than we do.

    The majority of the difference between the UK and France in terms of paying for health care comes from private health insurance paid by employers and employees. 85% of French citizens have some form of additional private insurance over and above what they pay to the Government. This accounts for about 23% of all health spending.

    The point is the alternative systems that are proposed turn out to be more expensive. The dirty little secret of the NHS is it is cheap and efficient: something governments of both stripes have been trying to fix.
    The real dirty little secret is it is unfit for purpose. Everyone who buys into the religion likes to highlight the Commonwealth reports that show it to be the best in the world at things like filing and control of drug use but they all ignore that it is 10th out of the 11 countries in terms of the one measure which should be the most important which is outcomes. You have less chance of getting better and staying better in the NHS than in most other first world health systems.
  • Mr. 16, are you suggesting the BBC wouldn't've run such a segment after, say, the 2001 landslide victory of Blair?

    Honestly.

    Anyway, I must be off.

    However, Mr. Eagles (and others, I suppose) may be interested in this review of a biography of Caesar: http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/review-caesar-by-theodore-ayrault-dodge.html
  • AndyJS said:

    BBC Radio 4: "At 1pm Mark Mardell asks whether democracy has had its day".

    Yesterday the bbc asked the same of capitalism.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    The NHS crisis is not so much financial as demographic. Older people have much greater health needs and Britain continues to get older. NHS services will need to be cut or charges will need to be introduced or other public services will need to be cut or tax will need to go up. Or, more likely, a combination of all of these.

    Ditto the pensions crisis. Ours is a rapidly ageing world (Sub-Saharan Africa excepted).

    https://twitter.com/simongerman600/status/926311907103006720

  • brendan16 said:

    Where will the extra money come from? France spends more on health than we do.

    The majority of the difference between the UK and France in terms of paying for health care comes from private health insurance paid by employers and employees. 85% of French citizens have some form of additional private insurance over and above what they pay to the Government. This accounts for about 23% of all health spending.

    It's always amazing that the debate on the NHS is always presented as its the NHS as it is now or it's a US style free for all privatised system. Yet no one ever suggests looking at models in much of Europe that seem to work.

    The NHS doesn't seem to be sustainable in its current form long term - but no government would have the guts to move towards the sort of socialised insurance models that exist in many other nations and generally work quite well. The NHS isn't free - someone has to pay for it.
    Nor are continental-style insurance schemes free. It turns out they are more expensive. There might be other good reasons for switching but it will not save money.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265

    Barnesian said:

    OT Many thanks for two recent tips here. I can't remember who gave them, but thanks.

    Next German Chancellor: I got on Jens Spahn early yesterday at 50s. Now 7 on Betfair.
    Next Russian President: I got lots on Putin at 1.06. Still available at 1.05.

    fingers cross Merkel will go, my bank balance would be pleased...
    Doubt it. The Spahn bet was an excellent trading bet but AFAIK the only person supporting Spahn is the deputy leader of the FDP. Even Spahn isn't trying for it. Betfair has a lot of punters who would like Merkel to go and bet on any rumour that she might.
  • brendan16 said:

    Where will the extra money come from? France spends more on health than we do.

    The majority of the difference between the UK and France in terms of paying for health care comes from private health insurance paid by employers and employees. 85% of French citizens have some form of additional private insurance over and above what they pay to the Government. This accounts for about 23% of all health spending.

    It's always amazing that the debate on the NHS is always presented as its the NHS as it is now or it's a US style free for all privatised system. Yet no one ever suggests looking at models in much of Europe that seem to work.

    The NHS doesn't seem to be sustainable in its current form long term - but no government would have the guts to move towards the sort of socialised insurance models that exist in many other nations and generally work quite well. The NHS isn't free - someone has to pay for it.
    Agree entirely. I disagree with those on the right in the UK who try to claim the US system is better. They are, in my opinion, simply wrong. But there are many systems in Europe and around the world that are better because they are not tied to one model of both finance and distribution of services. Large parts of the French system are provided by private companies working within strict guidelines on costs and service provision. The system works. It only seems to be in the UK that we are so blinded by the NHS religion that we cannot develop a better system.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    edited December 2017

    Where will the extra money come from? France spends more on health than we do.

    The majority of the difference between the UK and France in terms of paying for health care comes from private health insurance paid by employers and employees. 85% of French citizens have some form of additional private insurance over and above what they pay to the Government. This accounts for about 23% of all health spending.

    The point is the alternative systems that are proposed turn out to be more expensive. The dirty little secret of the NHS is it is cheap and efficient: something governments of both stripes have been trying to fix.
    The real dirty little secret is it is unfit for purpose. Everyone who buys into the religion likes to highlight the Commonwealth reports that show it to be the best in the world at things like filing and control of drug use but they all ignore that it is 10th out of the 11 countries in terms of the one measure which should be the most important which is outcomes. You have less chance of getting better and staying better in the NHS than in most other first world health systems.
    At least one of the NHS's problems is that the people who pontificate about it don't use it! I recall listening to a senior Civil Servant who had, IIRC, worked in the DoH and was waxing lyrical about some care his very elderly mother was recieving as though it was something peculiar to that geriatric unit. I'd been involved in what he was talking about for years.
This discussion has been closed.