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  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,427

    Aspells sold to Molson-Coors: No great loss. The cider product makes Strongbow taste acceptable. We still have "K" but I wonder what happened to "Red-Rock"? *

    * Remembering my earlier years....

    I far prefer Aspells
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,974

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Thanks CycleFree. I find the comments appalling and I've been very disappointed by the number of PBers who have condoned them.
    Agreed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,694
    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Probably not the same people had their say on Jared O'Mara.
    The problem with Jared O’Mara wasn’t his twitterings from a decade ago, rather his much more recent altercation and his complete indifference to the job the people of Sheffield Hallam elected him to do.

    I’m also sure that many of those who defended O’Mara over old Tweets are now attacking Young over the same.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,910

    It is one thing for Toby Young to be an arse. It is quite another thing for him to be an arse funded by the taxpayer.

    I think you may find there are many such funded by the taxpayer. I know little about Toby Young other than his work on free schools but he must be doing something right to have the left so agitated about him
    May I introduce you (and others on here) to the concept of the false syllogism.

    There are public servants/public figures with real achievements who have riled the establishment by what they have said. That does not mean that everyone who has riled the establishment, whether we are talking of the establishment of the left or right, is therefore a public figure with real achievement.

    Toby Young has some achievement in setting up a free school, rated “Good” (not “Outstanding”, note) and three feeder primaries. About a decade’s amount of work, though even he has said that his day to day involvement has been less and less over the years.

    He is not some sort of Elizabeth Fry social reformer and those over-egging his achievements and suitability in an attempt to protect him from the consequences of his own actions are making themselves look a tad ridiculous and a bit desperate, IMO.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,171

    If Young does get the chop I'm fully expecting some of his PB pompom wavers to hold candlelit vigils and start a #JeSuisToby campaign.

    True as always some will always defend their own , when they would be better having a dignified silence.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,215
    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Probably not the same people had their say on Jared O'Mara.
    Top bantz.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,694
    edited January 7

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Thanks CycleFree. I find the comments appalling and I've been very disappointed by the number of PBers who have condoned them.
    It’s not so much condoning his comments Mike, it’s more countering the over-reaction to his appointment.

    Yes he used to be a bit of an arse of a journalist, but he has achieved many good things with his free schools and provides a useful counterbalance to the prevailing narrative of political correctness and attacks on freedom of speech which are becoming a serious problem in our universities.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,171
    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Probably not the same people had their say on Jared O'Mara.
    The problem with Jared O’Mara wasn’t his twitterings from a decade ago, rather his much more recent altercation and his complete indifference to the job the people of Sheffield Hallam elected him to do.

    I’m also sure that many of those who defended O’Mara over old Tweets are now attacking Young over the same.
    Agreed, and many who attacked O'Mara over his old tweets are now defending Young over his old tweets.
  • Rebourne_FluffyRebourne_Fluffy Posts: 225
    edited January 7
    Toby Young: Comments on womens' breasts (as do most men; and some women).
    Jared O'Mara: Gets a woman assaulted (according to the various media outlets).

    Where is the equivilance?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,824
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Thanks CycleFree. I find the comments appalling and I've been very disappointed by the number of PBers who have condoned them.
    It’s not so much condoning his comments Mike, it’s more countering the over-reaction to his appointment.

    Yes he used to be a bit of an arse of a journalist, but he has achieved many good things with his free schools and provides a useful counterbalance to the prevailing narrative of political correctness and attacks on freedom of speech which are becoming a serious problem in our universities.
    I am at a loss as to how having set up a school makes masturbating over a film about starving children, or joking about such, somehow acceptable behaviour?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,918
    Yorkcity said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Probably not the same people had their say on Jared O'Mara.
    The problem with Jared O’Mara wasn’t his twitterings from a decade ago, rather his much more recent altercation and his complete indifference to the job the people of Sheffield Hallam elected him to do.

    I’m also sure that many of those who defended O’Mara over old Tweets are now attacking Young over the same.
    Agreed, and many who attacked O'Mara over his old tweets are now defending Young over his old tweets.
    But they are on a journey together, currently on the road to contrition.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,835
    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Didn't the 8th June 2017 answer that question emphatically enough for you, especially following the even more epic self-inflicted wound of the 23rd June 2016?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 11,443
    Yorkcity said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Probably not the same people had their say on Jared O'Mara.
    The problem with Jared O’Mara wasn’t his twitterings from a decade ago, rather his much more recent altercation and his complete indifference to the job the people of Sheffield Hallam elected him to do.

    I’m also sure that many of those who defended O’Mara over old Tweets are now attacking Young over the same.
    Agreed, and many who attacked O'Mara over his old tweets are now defending Young over his old tweets.
    I might be wrong but don't actually remember anyone defending O'Mara on here, certainly nothing approaching the numbers and enthusiasm of Tobey's touts.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,840
    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Funny" looks funny, as a word, when you type it lots of times in succession. How self-referential is that?

    The first rule of Recursion Club is also the second rule of Recursion Club.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 1,650
    OchEye said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    If Theresa May isn't going to shake up the more senior posts, there isn't any point to the reshuffle.

    Hammond is safe, Boris is not moveable and Rudd is her second in command.
    Why is Boris Johnson immoveable? He's out of his depth and conspicuously disloyal. If he could despatch her, he already would have. He'd be no loss to the government.

    And my point stands. If a reshuffle is to do anything, it's to give the administration a fresh look. Keeping the same senior faces won't do that.
    A pointless reshuffle that does nothing but sow discontent is very possible. After all, Theresa is not very good at this politics malarky.
    In fairness she's the first one to actually beat Corbyn, compared to the New Labour lot she's a superstar!
    That is true. However, she also had the third go at trying to beat Corbyn. Should she have done better?

    In retrospect, Theresa -- and all of us -- should have learnt something from the ease with which Jeremy disposed of Liz Kendall, Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, Angela Eagle and Owen Smith.

    Theresa & the Tories followed Leicester Liz & Co in comprehensively underestimating Corbyn and his appeal.

    But, I suspect that it will not happen a fourth time. That is the problem with being a successful underdog. It is a diminishing asset.


    Why do so many forget that Corbyn has watched from the back benches for nearly 30 years? Think about it, he has seen all the different tactics and the results by some of the experts, the wannabe's and the few who make Machiaveli look like a rank amateur. I don't think I would like to play political chess against him....
    I think Jeremy benefitted from people underestimating him & underestimating the popularity of his world-view.

    I don’t know who will win in 2022 (or whenever). But, one of Jeremy’s strong cards over the last few years (that people underestimated him) will not be in play.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,840

    OchEye said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    If Theresa May isn't going to shake up the more senior posts, there isn't any point to the reshuffle.

    Hammond is safe, Boris is not moveable and Rudd is her second in command.
    Why is Boris Johnson immoveable? He's out of his depth and conspicuously disloyal. If he could despatch her, he already would have. He'd be no loss to the government.

    And my point stands. If a reshuffle is to do anything, it's to give the administration a fresh look. Keeping the same senior faces won't do that.
    A pointless reshuffle that does nothing but sow discontent is very possible. After all, Theresa is not very good at this politics malarky.
    In fairness she's the first one to actually beat Corbyn, compared to the New Labour lot she's a superstar!
    That is true. However, she also had the third go at trying to beat Corbyn. Should she have done better?

    In retrospect, Theresa -- and all of us -- should have learnt something from the ease with which Jeremy disposed of Liz Kendall, Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, Angela Eagle and Owen Smith.

    Theresa & the Tories followed Leicester Liz & Co in comprehensively underestimating Corbyn and his appeal.

    But, I suspect that it will not happen a fourth time. That is the problem with being a successful underdog. It is a diminishing asset.


    Why do so many forget that Corbyn has watched from the back benches for nearly 30 years? Think about it, he has seen all the different tactics and the results by some of the experts, the wannabe's and the few who make Machiaveli look like a rank amateur. I don't think I would like to play political chess against him....
    I think Jeremy benefitted from people underestimating him & underestimating the popularity of his world-view.

    I don’t know who will win in 2022 (or whenever). But, one of Jeremy’s strong cards over the last few years (that people underestimated him) will not be in play.
    Unless you're underestimating how much people have stopped underestimating him.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,694

    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Funny" looks funny, as a word, when you type it lots of times in succession. How self-referential is that?

    The first rule of Recursion Club is also the second rule of Recursion Club.
    :tongue:
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,910
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Didn't the 8th June 2017 answer that question emphatically enough for you, especially following the even more epic self-inflicted wound of the 23rd June 2016?
    I thought some lessons might have been learned. I should have known better.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,171

    Yorkcity said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Probably not the same people had their say on Jared O'Mara.
    The problem with Jared O’Mara wasn’t his twitterings from a decade ago, rather his much more recent altercation and his complete indifference to the job the people of Sheffield Hallam elected him to do.

    I’m also sure that many of those who defended O’Mara over old Tweets are now attacking Young over the same.
    Agreed, and many who attacked O'Mara over his old tweets are now defending Young over his old tweets.
    I might be wrong but don't actually remember anyone defending O'Mara on here, certainly nothing approaching the numbers and enthusiasm of Tobey's touts.
    Toby is better at networking , hierarchies, and markets ?
  • Rebourne_FluffyRebourne_Fluffy Posts: 225
    edited January 7
    The current state of the Conservative party is post-Dunkirk: The Battle-of-Britain will rage until March '2019. We expect the future to be defined by governance and hard-work.

    Things may go wrong within Africa and Asia may be our blind-spot. We will try to work with our, reluctant, American colleagues to help us through: The Commonwealth will sigh but accept all-for-one.

    Things may go 'Dieppe' and we may be stuck - again - with some Italian boot; but we will persevere. It may cost us a lot of money to resolve Europe's dictatorial desires but we will see the battle through.

    All governing parties have internal-conflicts: Surely the end-goal is clear enough to bond the sinews of the party together? Toby Young may turn out to be our Prince George, Duke of Kent (in the kindest possible form).
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 8,020
    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Is it possible Toby Young is being set up as a sacrificial lamb and that CCHQ wants Toby to seem far more important than he is in order to use his removal next week to liven up an otherwise dull reshuffle?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,910
    I do wish we could reintroduce the concept of privacy, the idea that there are some matters to be reserved for intimates.

    There really is no need for public discussion about one’s sex life or w***ing habits. This is the equivalent of small children shouting “bum” and “willy” and finding it hilarious.

    In adults it is merely childish (and not in a good way) and tiresome. People who do it are not baiting the liberal establishment; they are merely displaying their immaturity. Just as political leaders who visit Middle Eastern dictators in the company of Holocaust deniers are not challenging the neo-liberal consensus but displaying their moral obtuseness.

    And on that note I am off to enjoy the fine weather by doing some gardening.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,459
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Thanks CycleFree. I find the comments appalling and I've been very disappointed by the number of PBers who have condoned them.
    It’s not so much condoning his comments Mike, it’s more countering the over-reaction to his appointment.

    Yes he used to be a bit of an arse of a journalist, but he has achieved many good things with his free schools and provides a useful counterbalance to the prevailing narrative of political correctness and attacks on freedom of speech which are becoming a serious problem in our universities.
    Defending free speech means standing up for the right of people like Young to be an arse on a regular basis. That really does not make him a useful spokesperson for free speech, and I'm at a loss why you think it should.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,840

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Is it possible Toby Young is being set up as a sacrificial lamb and that CCHQ wants Toby to seem far more important than he is in order to use his removal next week to liven up an otherwise dull reshuffle?
    That's what they want you to think.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 8,020

    The current state of the Conservative party is post-Dunkirk: The Battle-of-Britain will rage until March '2019. We expect the future to be defined by governance and hard-work.

    Things may go wrong within Africa and Asia may be our blind-spot. We will try to work with our, reluctant, American colleagues to help us through: The Commonwealth will sigh but accept all-for-one.

    Things may go 'Dieppe' and we may be stuck - again - with some Italian boot; but we will persevere. It may cost us a lot of money to resolve Europe's dictatorial desires but we will see the battle through.

    All governing parties have internal-conflicts: Surely the end-goal is clear enough to bond the sinews of the party together? Toby Young may turn out to be our Prince George, Duke of Kent (in the kindest possible form).

    Shift your analogy back a couple of years and Toby Young is the king anxious to marry Wallis Simpson, and the PB Tories are Winston Churchill defending the indefensible long after the point when abdication has become inevitable. Theresa May is Stanley Baldwin.
  • NEW THREAD

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,835
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Didn't the 8th June 2017 answer that question emphatically enough for you, especially following the even more epic self-inflicted wound of the 23rd June 2016?
    I thought some lessons might have been learned. I should have known better.
    Hate to say it, but yes, you should.

    Talleyrand's famous dictum has applied to politicians down the ages with very rare exceptions. It is one reason why politicians in democracies tend to have a comparatively short shelf-life.

    Admittedly May has taken such things to a remarkably high level, but I think short of a major clearout this will be an ongoing issue.

    And the major clearout seems unlikely when the main opposition party are even more clueless and led by somebody who was kicked out of a polytechnic for being dim/being too left wing for his lecturers to work with (both of which are equally astonishing possibilities).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,824
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Incidentally, all those defending Young’s past comments won’t mind in the slightest when Corbyn’s defenders use the self-same arguments to deflect any criticism or even scrutiny of Corbyn’s past comments and associations by Tories.

    Is there no-one in the Tory party with even the slightest strategic sense or tactical nous?

    Probably not the same people had their say on Jared O'Mara.
    The problem with Jared O’Mara wasn’t his twitterings from a decade ago, rather his much more recent altercation and his complete indifference to the job the people of Sheffield Hallam elected him to do.

    I’m also sure that many of those who defended O’Mara over old Tweets are now attacking Young over the same.
    Agreed, and many who attacked O'Mara over his old tweets are now defending Young over his old tweets.
    I might be wrong but don't actually remember anyone defending O'Mara on here, certainly nothing approaching the numbers and enthusiasm of Tobey's touts.
    Toby is better at networking , hierarchies, and markets ?
    Or Tories can't resist poking their head above the parapet to defend the indefensible
This discussion has been closed.