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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After a chaotic day TMay’s position looks even weaker

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited January 8 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » After a chaotic day TMay’s position looks even weaker

Friends of Justine Greening tell me: “She should have absolutely expected to continue… she saw people who have been massively disloyal, others not competent, allowed to stay in Cabinet, and even given expanded briefs”

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,875
    First, like no Secretary of State.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,804
    Second - like remain.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 28,309
    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,804

    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit

    Mr Starmers week gets worse..
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,936
    edited January 8
    Will someone wake me up when this nightmare is over. Clearly May happy firing a gay woman but can't assert over men, however incompetent or disloyal. Optics not great.

    Has @CarlottaVance been along to tell us this was a misunderstood triumph yet?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,885
    Another fine mess.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,024
    Tories = clueless and incompetent.
  • saddosaddo Posts: 434
    Greening was useless at Transport and equally rubbish at Education. Just played her lbgt card when she needed it.

    Big but on the day is Hunt & Clark.. What was that all about?

    Overall reinforces to that she's in place to deliver brexit but 2020 or after she'll be replaced unless brexit starts to look a rip roaring success.

    The Messiah helped today by coming clean on leaving the single market.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,672
    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,512

    Will someone wake me up when this nightmare is over. Clearly May happy firing a gay woman but can't assert over men, however incompetent or disloyal. Optics not great.

    Has @CarlottaVance been along to tell us this was a misunderstood triumph yet?

    I think this is not in her/his timezone. As far as I understand she/he lives in SE Asia
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,387
    Well done to all the SCons who will be providing a strong voice for Scotland in the Cabinet.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,024

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Corbyn's alliance is crumbling - it had to happen I guess.

    What an own goal it will be seen as, just at a time the Tories are becoming even more crap....
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 1,328

    Will someone wake me up when this nightmare is over. Clearly May happy firing a gay woman but can't assert over men, however incompetent or disloyal. Optics not great.

    Has @CarlottaVance been along to tell us this was a misunderstood triumph yet?

    I don't think that dreary experience will be worth staying up for. Goodnight campers.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,276

    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit

    Is more important to Cons’ prospects than anything Tezza did today.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 900
    edited January 8
    Scott_P said:
    Has Princess Charlotte made the Cabinet? It's odd seeing her pic next to all these reshuffle stories!

    No Prime Minister - I don't have time to do the job on offer as I have to attend my £3000 a term nursery school.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,672
    saddo said:

    Greening was useless at Transport and equally rubbish at Education. Just played her lbgt card when she needed it.

    Big but on the day is Hunt & Clark.. What was that all about?

    Overall reinforces to that she's in place to deliver brexit but 2020 or after she'll be replaced unless brexit starts to look a rip roaring success.

    The Messiah helped today by coming clean on leaving the single market.

    I have no doubt she will oversee Brexit and then hand over to one of the new intake from today or tomorrow
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 1,328
    Scott_P said:
    I see 'girl goes to nursery' shares the front page.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 2,641
    brendan16 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Has Princess Charlotte made the Cabinet? It's odd seeing her pic next to all these reshuffle stories!

    No Prime Minister - I don't have time to do the job on offer as I have to attend my £3000 a term nursery school.
    Princess Charlotte dresses berr than most of the cabinet, and takes a better photo.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 14,749
    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,672
    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 41,615

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Labour will never commit to the single market while Corbyn (or indeed McDonnell) are leader, they are ideologically opposed to it, probably even more so than May who would ideally like to stay in it if we got some concessions over free movement
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,804

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    They will stick their fingers in their ears and pretend it’s not true -they’ve done it for 2 years.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 900
    edited January 8

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable! Or having your Patisserie and eating the entire stock on the shelves.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 41,615
    May is there for the Brexit talks and little more, nobody else really wants to touch the leadership while those are continuing so I expect she will stay for the time being
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,018

    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit

    Good day to bury that - his internal opponents are too gutless to make anything from it, and most of the rank and file probably won't notice until he's PM and not pursuing single market access.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,672
    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,936
    saddo said:

    Greening was useless at Transport and equally rubbish at Education. Just played her lbgt card when she needed it.

    Big but on the day is Hunt & Clark.. What was that all about?

    Overall reinforces to that she's in place to deliver brexit but 2020 or after she'll be replaced unless brexit starts to look a rip roaring success.

    The Messiah helped today by coming clean on leaving the single market.

    I salute your lack of objectivity. May has made more needless enemies, something she cannot afford.
  • My sincere congratulations to David Herdson who prophesised in his excellent article's final sentence:

    "It does mean, however, that if May does choose to push on with re-forming the government, there’s a strong chance that something will go wrong."

    Mrs May's political capital that was tiny to begin with is now microscopic.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,804

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
    Lol -Chukka has form for flouncing and not following through on action.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,936
    edited January 8
    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable! Or having your Patisserie and eating the entire stock on the shelves.
    It's cake and eat it of little material difference to what the Tories are offering. Two inept parties in a dance of death at the moment.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,133
    What was the point of this reshuffle?

    The only vaguely sensible decision was to move Social Care to Health.

    But as for the rest. Why?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,672
    kle4 said:

    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit

    Good day to bury that - his internal opponents are too gutless to make anything from it, and most of the rank and file probably won't notice until he's PM and not pursuing single market access.
    He will not be pm before March 2019 by which time the narrative will have moved on
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 900

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
    Corbyn sacked several shadow Cabinet rebels who backed Chukkas Commons motion last July?

    If you want true socialism and massive state intervention in the economy you can't be in the single market as the state aid rules would prevent it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,018

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable! Or having your Patisserie and eating the entire stock on the shelves.
    It's cake and eat of little material difference to what the Tories are offering..
    Don't let the Cobynistas know that, the shock could be dangerous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,018
    edited January 8

    kle4 said:

    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit

    Good day to bury that - his internal opponents are too gutless to make anything from it, and most of the rank and file probably won't notice until he's PM and not pursuing single market access.
    He will not be pm before March 2019 by which time the narrative will have moved on
    Yes, to 'time for a change', which even more people will be willing to accept this time, after what are sure to be fraught negotiations which significant numbers of Tories will bitch and moan about. And probably some bad economic times on the horizon. He just needs to hold the party together until the next GE, and circumstances look good for that.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,311
    It's a reasonable enough reshuffle. It doesn't change the fundamentals, and was no more of a 'shambles' than any other reshuffle of comparable size (other than the possibly major blunder of moving the two ministers working on Universal Credit out of DWP). However, the PM's position is so weak that it is being portrayed as a shambles.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,672

    My sincere congratulations to David Herdson who prophesised in his excellent article's final sentence:

    "It does mean, however, that if May does choose to push on with re-forming the government, there’s a strong chance that something will go wrong."

    Mrs May's political capital that was tiny to begin with is now microscopic.

    She has made one malcontent today in Greening but many others will be pleased at the opportunity to shine. In this volatile climate and the prospect of Corbyn I do not see the conservative party taking down their own government. Not least as Greening would lose her seat
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,114

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,936

    It's a reasonable enough reshuffle. It doesn't change the fundamentals, and was no more of a 'shambles' than any other reshuffle of comparable size (other than the possibly major blunder of moving the two ministers working on Universal Credit out of DWP). However, the PM's position is so weak that it is being portrayed as a shambles.

    Lol, Richard as ever on the evening 'blind supporter' shift. It was obvious this was a shitshow by early afternoon simply by the fact it was clear it would take about 10 hours to get through it. Cameron would have had it wrapped up by lunch, but then he generally had some basic strategic nous.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 41,615
    TGOHF said:

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
    Lol -Chukka has form for flouncing and not following through on action.
    Chuka sees himself as the Messiah of pro European and metropolitan liberals, he will bide his time in the Wilderness until he is called to lead his party back to the fabled centre ground and his country back to the promised land of the single market!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,672
    Cyclefree said:

    What was the point of this reshuffle?

    The only vaguely sensible decision was to move Social Care to Health.

    But as for the rest. Why?

    Housing to DCLG and need to replace McLoughlin and Brokenshire (sadly ad hope he makes a swift recovery)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,018
    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    Labour's senior figures seem as confused on Brexit as the Cabinet does, whatever was in the manifesto text, I would suggest it quite likely plenty of Labour supporters are not clear on what the present plans already were. The footsoldiers of a tribe, whatever tribe, often do not.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,018

    Cyclefree said:

    What was the point of this reshuffle?

    The only vaguely sensible decision was to move Social Care to Health.

    But as for the rest. Why?

    Housing to DCLG and need to replace McLoughlin and Brokenshire (sadly ad hope he makes a swift recovery)
    We can hope so, though on the NI position, I must confess I am unclear on whether it is possible to do a good or bad job in that role, it seems entirely dependent on the whims of local parties.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,804

    My sincere congratulations to David Herdson who prophesised in his excellent article's final sentence:

    "It does mean, however, that if May does choose to push on with re-forming the government, there’s a strong chance that something will go wrong."

    Mrs May's political capital that was tiny to begin with is now microscopic.

    She has made one malcontent today in Greening but many others will be pleased at the opportunity to shine. In this volatile climate and the prospect of Corbyn I do not see the conservative party taking down their own government. Not least as Greening would lose her seat
    Greening was always going to struggle following on from Gove.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 2,641
    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,672
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    The problem with that is that there is going to be a high profile vote on the deal in late Autumn and labour will not be able to hide from it
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,936
    Apparently David Davis is upset that the EU is planning for a hard Brexit. Unspoofable.

    https://amp.ft.com/content/7306b972-f49a-11e7-88f7-5465a6ce1a00?__twitter_impression=true

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,672

    Apparently David Davis is upset that the EU is planning for a hard Brexit. Unspoofable.

    https://amp.ft.com/content/7306b972-f49a-11e7-88f7-5465a6ce1a00?__twitter_impression=true

    Have they told Poland - they said today a hard Brexit would destroy their economy
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,936

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    The problem with that is that there is going to be a high profile vote on the deal in late Autumn and labour will not be able to hide from it
    And will the Tories be united four square behind May for that vote? Don't bank on it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,088

    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit

    Good news because it increases the chances of no Brexit versus a soft Brexit.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,804

    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit

    Good news because it increases the chances of no Brexit versus a soft Brexit.
    Wibble.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 41,615

    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit

    Good news because it increases the chances of no Brexit versus a soft Brexit.
    How did you work that one out? Both main party leaders oppose both those options even if they want a FTA
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,672

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    The problem with that is that there is going to be a high profile vote on the deal in late Autumn and labour will not be able to hide from it
    And will the Tories be united four square behind May for that vote? Don't bank on it.
    Possibly not but the ramifications for all politicians will be staring them in the face and who knows the end result
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,804
    Labour are correct not to be anti Brexit as when it is a roaring success they can claim to have backed it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,114
    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    Indeed. What is more there seems to be some idea that most Labour supporters/members are deluded and don't understand the position. The truth is they do. They just don' t care in the same visceral way that many Conservatives do.
  • My sincere congratulations to David Herdson who prophesised in his excellent article's final sentence:

    "It does mean, however, that if May does choose to push on with re-forming the government, there’s a strong chance that something will go wrong."

    Mrs May's political capital that was tiny to begin with is now microscopic.

    She has made one malcontent today in Greening but many others will be pleased at the opportunity to shine. In this volatile climate and the prospect of Corbyn I do not see the conservative party taking down their own government. Not least as Greening would lose her seat
    I think the opposition will be reminding voters in months to come

    "Theresa May- the PM that was told by ministers what job they wanted"

    and many other such comments to show how out of touch and useless she is.

    She could have done a mini-reshuffle but no. A full on reshuffle that wasn't.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,018
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    Indeed. What is more there seems to be some idea that most Labour supporters/members are deluded and don't understand the position. The truth is they do. They just don' t care in the same visceral way that many Conservatives do.
    Things have certainly improved in the last 6 months then, since a quick google shows innumerable stories, not just from Tory papers, stating that voters and/or labour members are confused by the parties brexit position.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,804
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    Indeed. What is more there seems to be some idea that most Labour supporters/members are deluded and don't understand the position. The truth is they do. They just don' t care in the same visceral way that many Conservatives do.
    Brexit is a small side issue for your average Labour supporter - pales into comparison to Toby Young’s tweets from 8 years ago.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,362
    Imagine my surprise to find Theresa May has emerged from her reshuffle looking even weaker and Jeremy Corbyn has clearly and unequivocally decided to have another row with the PLP.

    Worst government ever.

    Worst opposition ever.

    It’s their uselessness that is maintaining their polling performances: 40% of the country is deeply anti-Tory, 40% is deeply anti-Labour; only tiny proportions of voters - very strongly represented on PB - are positively for either party these days.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,133
    brendan16 said:

    brendan16 said:

    TGOHF said:
    Start of public fractures in labour as Corbyn confirms single market exit.

    Now where are all those labour supporters who expect Corbyn to engineer a remain position
    Isn't Corbyn just reaffirming what the manifesto said,

    Labour wants all the benefits of being in the single market without being a member of the single market as that would mean keeping freedom of movement.

    And they presumably want to stay in a customs union with the EU/EEA but not in the customs union of the EU/EEA.

    I think it's called keeping everyone happy and promising the undeliverable!
    Chukka walking out of the PLP tonight is the first public display of discord
    Corbyn sacked several shadow Cabinet rebels who backed Chukkas Commons motion last July?

    If you want true socialism and massive state intervention in the economy you can't be in the single market as the state aid rules would prevent it.
    And capital controls. Don't forget those.

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 900

    Cyclefree said:

    What was the point of this reshuffle?

    The only vaguely sensible decision was to move Social Care to Health.

    But as for the rest. Why?

    Housing to DCLG and need to replace McLoughlin and Brokenshire (sadly ad hope he makes a swift recovery)
    DCLG already had housing - they have just added housing to the name of the department! Although given housing is delivered mostly through local government and builds communities I don't really see why a wasteful rebranding was needed. All those logos and letter heads to change - that could have been spent on actually delivering housing!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,362
    Yep - but not by a party led by Jeremy Corbyn ...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,088
    edited January 8
    HYUFD said:

    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit

    Good news because it increases the chances of no Brexit versus a soft Brexit.
    How did you work that one out? Both main party leaders oppose both those options even if they want a FTA
    Which of them is in favour of spending money on new customs infrastructure?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,114
    TGOHF said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    Indeed. What is more there seems to be some idea that most Labour supporters/members are deluded and don't understand the position. The truth is they do. They just don' t care in the same visceral way that many Conservatives do.
    Brexit is a small side issue for your average Labour supporter - pales into comparison to Toby Young’s tweets from 8 years ago.
    No pales into comparison compared to wages, housing, transport, etc. That is why 2 out 5 voters voted Labour.
    This still seems to be a mystery to many posters on here who seem to think most people spend their waking lives fretting about the single market/ customs union.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,088
    edited January 8

    DD letter

    This is probably the biggest story of the day as it shows just how frit the government is of the consequences of Brexit.

    Here's the full letter:
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,362

    This is probably the biggest story of the day as it shows just how frit the government is of the consequences of Brexit.

    Very slowly, as the clock ticks down, the consequences are becoming starker. That’s why we’re heading for a very soft, fluffy, bouncy departure that will be all about seeking to hide away the multiple concessions the government will make to stop us falling off the cliff. It will be a lesson in negotiating with parties that hold all the cards.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 41,615

    HYUFD said:

    Jeremy Corbyn has insisted the UK cannot be a member of the single market after Brexit, disappointing some of his pro-European Union MPs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/08/jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-after-brexit

    Good news because it increases the chances of no Brexit versus a soft Brexit.
    How did you work that one out? Both main party leaders oppose both those options even if they want a FTA
    Which of them is in favour of spending money on new customs infrastructure?
    They still want a FTA to solve most of that, just outside the single market and with no free movement
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,133

    Cyclefree said:

    What was the point of this reshuffle?

    The only vaguely sensible decision was to move Social Care to Health.

    But as for the rest. Why?

    Housing to DCLG and need to replace McLoughlin and Brokenshire (sadly ad hope he makes a swift recovery)
    That could all have been done in 30 minutes in time for elevenses, frankly.

    All the rest was pointless. She has not brought on new talent; she has not got rid of duffers or the disloyal; she has not indicated some change in strategic direction; she has not strengthened her own position; she has not changed the look or appeal of the government.

    It's just a load of nothingness like her speeches and like most of what comes out of her government.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,133

    This is probably the biggest story of the day as it shows just how frit the government is of the consequences of Brexit.

    Very slowly, as the clock ticks down, the consequences are becoming starker. That’s why we’re heading for a very soft, fluffy, bouncy departure that will be all about seeking to hide away the multiple concessions the government will make to stop us falling off the cliff. It will be a lesson in negotiating with parties that hold all the cards.

    Surely a very soft fluffy bouncy Brexit will involve staying in the SM/CU? Which has been ruled out, apparently, by both the government and opposition.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 431
    saddo said:

    Greening was useless at Transport and equally rubbish at Education. Just played her lbgt card when she needed it.

    The “producers” in each case - railwaymen and teachers - would disagree. Five minutes’ Googling will tell you that. (I’m from a family of one and married to the other.)

    So to prove your “useless”, you’ll need to demonstrate value to the “consumers”. Good luck with that. Grayling’s DfT was responsible for Southern Rail, the biggest avoidable screwup since WCML modernisation, while Gove’s education reforms were so popular with parents that Cameron moved his old ally out of post for becoming “electoral poison”.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,114
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    Indeed. What is more there seems to be some idea that most Labour supporters/members are deluded and don't understand the position. The truth is they do. They just don' t care in the same visceral way that many Conservatives do.
    Things have certainly improved in the last 6 months then, since a quick google shows innumerable stories, not just from Tory papers, stating that voters and/or labour members are confused by the parties brexit position.
    Whereas the Cons position is crystal? The Labour position is to respect the vote whilst opposing the government. That is their job.
    Corbyn can be criticised for innumerable things, but on this he is spot on.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 957
    Yes, of course it could have been handled better --- but this is the Tories we're talking about...
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,149
    I have sympathy for Greening who did a good job at dfid I thought and deserved her promotion.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 957

    DD letter

    This is probably the biggest story of the day as it shows just how frit the government is of the consequences of Brexit.

    Here's the full letter:
    Anybody who has any connection with the field of pharmacovigilance has been trying to tell the government this for ages. "Qualified persons" under the legislation will have to be living in the EU. The government needs specific British legislation to deal with drug licensing and has done bugger all to prepare for it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,836
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    What was the point of this reshuffle?

    The only vaguely sensible decision was to move Social Care to Health.

    But as for the rest. Why?

    Housing to DCLG and need to replace McLoughlin and Brokenshire (sadly ad hope he makes a swift recovery)
    That could all have been done in 30 minutes in time for elevenses, frankly.

    All the rest was pointless. She has not brought on new talent; she has not got rid of duffers or the disloyal; she has not indicated some change in strategic direction; she has not strengthened her own position; she has not changed the look or appeal of the government.

    It's just a load of nothingness like her speeches and like most of what comes out of her government.

    And what is the point of moving an Education minister after only a year - other than May's unhealthy obsession with grammar schools ?
    A policy likely to run into the sand in any event.
  • Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 957

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    Or Grayling
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 28,617

    It's a reasonable enough reshuffle. It doesn't change the fundamentals, and was no more of a 'shambles' than any other reshuffle of comparable size (other than the possibly major blunder of moving the two ministers working on Universal Credit out of DWP). However, the PM's position is so weak that it is being portrayed as a shambles.

    Yep. And the Grayling story OGH assured us would “dominate the media narrative” no more than a footnote. As the waters close over Ms Greening’s head, the caravan moves on.....
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 431
    It's 8.26am in Hong Kong
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 900
    edited January 9
    dixiedean said:

    TGOHF said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    Indeed. What is more there seems to be some idea that most Labour supporters/members are deluded and don't understand the position. The truth is they do. They just don' t care in the same visceral way that many Conservatives do.
    Brexit is a small side issue for your average Labour supporter - pales into comparison to Toby Young’s tweets from 8 years ago.
    No pales into comparison compared to wages, housing, transport, etc. That is why 2 out 5 voters voted Labour.
    This still seems to be a mystery to many posters on here who seem to think most people spend their waking lives fretting about the single market/ customs union.
    No they don't. But some do perhaps see that an inability to control your borders due to freedom of movement makes it rather difficult to Meet the spiralling demand for housing, makes transport more crowded (and thus drives the need for additional infrastructure and expanding the network) and heaven forbid leads to lower or stagnating wages for the working classes as there is more competition for jobs and work.

    But of course the number of people in the country has no impact on housing demand or wages or congestion - does it? Shouldn't we be able to decide what immigration is needed for the benefit of the U.K and those already here - rather than what is beneficial to those arriving.

    After all it's what Canada, Australia and. NZ do
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 28,617

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 22,400

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    Personally, I would have said adieu to Dr Liam Fox, and moved Hammond out of the Treasury. (I would have offered him the Business role, and if he didn't want it, he could return to the backbenches.)

    Boris is a difficult one: I don't think he enhances the prestige or standing of the United Kingdom, but he's a difficult man to sack. That being said, having demonstrated a willingness to fire senior people would have put Boris on notice.

    I would have been tempted to promote Gove, but I think he's doing a good job in a ministry that needs an intelligent man at the helm through Brexit.

    Greening, I would have kept in place. Leadsom is useless, goodbye. I would have promoted Kwasi Kwarteng into the Cabinet, perhaps taking Fox's role. People don't hate Kwasi, and he's really smart, which would be an enormous relief to both our trading partners and the civil servants at the DfIT.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 22,400
    edited January 9
    brendan16 said:

    dixiedean said:

    TGOHF said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.

    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    Indeed. What is more there seems to be some idea that most Labour supporters/members are deluded and don't understand the position. The truth is they do. They just don' t care in the same visceral way that many Conservatives do.
    Brexit is a small side issue for your average Labour supporter - pales into comparison to Toby Young’s tweets from 8 years ago.
    No pales into comparison compared to wages, housing, transport, etc. That is why 2 out 5 voters voted Labour.
    This still seems to be a mystery to many posters on here who seem to think most people spend their waking lives fretting about the single market/ customs union.
    No they don't. But some do perhaps see that an inability to control your borders due to freedom of movement makes it rather difficult to Meet the spiralling demand for housing, makes transport more crowded (and thus drives the need for additional infrastructure and expanding the network) and heaven forbid leads to lower or stagnating wages for the working classes as there is more competition for jobs and work.

    But of course the number of people in the country has no impact on housing demand or wages or congestion - does it? Shouldn't we be able to decide what immigration is needed for the benefit of the U.K and those already here - rather than what is beneficial to those arriving.

    After all it's what Canada, Australia and. NZ do
    Although, of course, Australia and NZ do have an arrangement like the UK and Ireland (or the UK and the EU) had, where people from one can happily work in the other.

    And it's relatively simple - it's an online form - to get work permits for salaried employees from Canada in the US. (You can't have a criminal record, but if a company is willing to go through the, five minute, hurdle of going through a web portal, you're in.)

    I think we tend to overestimate the prevalence of "points based systems" in immigration. When there are two countries of relatively similar wealth, that adjoin each other, and have strong trade links, then the controls are usually fairly nominal.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,088
    rcs1000 said:

    brendan16 said:

    dixiedean said:

    TGOHF said:

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.

    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    Indeed. What is more there seems to be some idea that most Labour supporters/members are deluded and don't understand the position. The truth is they do. They just don' t care in the same visceral way that many Conservatives do.
    Brexit is a small side issue for your average Labour supporter - pales into comparison to Toby Young’s tweets from 8 years ago.
    No pales into comparison compared to wages, housing, transport, etc. That is why 2 out 5 voters voted Labour.
    This still seems to be a mystery to many posters on here who seem to think most people spend their waking lives fretting about the single market/ customs union.
    No they don't. But some do perhaps see that an inability to control your borders due to freedom of movement makes it rather difficult to Meet the spiralling demand for housing, makes transport more crowded (and thus drives the need for additional infrastructure and expanding the network) and heaven forbid leads to lower or stagnating wages for the working classes as there is more competition for jobs and work.

    But of course the number of people in the country has no impact on housing demand or wages or congestion - does it? Shouldn't we be able to decide what immigration is needed for the benefit of the U.K and those already here - rather than what is beneficial to those arriving.

    After all it's what Canada, Australia and. NZ do
    Although, of course, Australia and NZ do have an arrangement like the UK and Ireland (or the UK and the EU) had, where people from one can happily work in the other.

    And it's relatively simple - it's an online form - to get work permits for salaried employees from Canada in the US. (You can't have a criminal record, but if a company is willing to go through the, five minute, hurdle of going through a web portal, you're in.)

    I think we tend to overestimate the prevalence of "points based systems" in immigration. When there are two countries of relatively similar wealth, that adjoin each other, and have strong trade links, then the controls are usually fairly nominal.
    If we'd had the same rate of immigration as Australia or the US since the 1950s, the population would be over 100m.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,088
    rcs1000 said:

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    Personally, I would have said adieu to Dr Liam Fox, and moved Hammond out of the Treasury.
    So who would you make Chancellor?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 28,617
    rcs1000 said:

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    Personally, I would have said adieu to Dr Liam Fox, and moved Hammond out of the Treasury. (I would have offered him the Business role, and if he didn't want it, he could return to the backbenches.)

    Boris is a difficult one: I don't think he enhances the prestige or standing of the United Kingdom, but he's a difficult man to sack. That being said, having demonstrated a willingness to fire senior people would have put Boris on notice.

    I would have been tempted to promote Gove, but I think he's doing a good job in a ministry that needs an intelligent man at the helm through Brexit.

    Greening, I would have kept in place. Leadsom is useless, goodbye. I would have promoted Kwasi Kwarteng into the Cabinet, perhaps taking Fox's role. People don't hate Kwasi, and he's really smart, which would be an enormous relief to both our trading partners and the civil servants at the DfIT.
    If “talent” was the only consideration then I’d agree - but much as a pilot’s first responsibility is to “fly the plane” a PM’s job is to “keep the show on the road” - sacking two prominent leavers while promoting Lidington would have made that more difficult. It’s a balancing act.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,885

    Apologies if already mentioned but the failure to demote Andrea Leadsom stands out for me how feeble May has been in this shambles.

    The only practical way May could satisfy those calling for her to “stamp her authority” would have been to sack one or more of the key ministers (Boris, Hammond, Davis) thus making for herself a powerful enemy on the back benches itching for the leadership role. It’s a mystery why she chose not to do this. Those complaining about lack of continuity in sacking Greening (who declined another role, sacking herself) don’t appear to apply the same logic to Fox or Leadsome.....
    In which case one wonders why she didn't just go ahead and fill the gaps as quickly as possible and with the minimum of fuss? Instead she chose to brief the media well in advance about an impending 'major reshuffle', and then proceeded to duck all of the decisions that clearly need taking and threw in some gratuitous ones that she either didn't need to or actually couldn't make for good measure.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 843
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    Indeed. What is more there seems to be some idea that most Labour supporters/members are deluded and don't understand the position. The truth is they do. They just don' t care in the same visceral way that many Conservatives do.
    I've mentioned this a few times as well, I think Nick Palmer has mentioned this once or twice as well.

    Brexit isn't anywhere near the top issue for Labour voters the same way it is for Conservative voters or for many on here. That attempted wedge in the Labour support against Corbyn has been tried multiple times and failed miserably because it isn't the main issue.

    I also fail to see how a storm out and an argument will achieve what mass resignations and a coup before the general election, voting to trigger article 50 and a resignation and a few firings just after the election failed to achieve.

    But if there really is some huge remainer block voting for Corbyn purely for staying in the EU rather than other reasons as well who haven't got a clue what is going on (more so than the the average voter) that have basically missed almost everything why would they suddenly start processing information and turn against Corbyn now or over the next few years?

    It has mainly been the weapon of choice for labour centrists to attack him with since they realised the rest of his platform is mostly pretty popular. A lot of the people who seem to think this approach will cause damage are the same people who have underestimated Corbyn several other times since his nomination for the leadership, they may be right this time but I expect it is another false dawn.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 843
    Southam said:

    Imagine surprise to find May has emerged from reshuffle looking weaker and Corbyn has clearly and unequivocally decided to have another row with the PLP

    Worst government ever

    Worst opposition ever

    It’s their uselessness that is maintaining their polling performances: 40% of the country is deeply anti-Tory, 40% is deeply anti-Labour; only tiny proportions of voters - very strongly represented on PB - are positively for either party these days.

    I don't think Corbyn can really be blamed for constant rows with the PLP, especially one who has been looking to use the EU as a wedge issue constantly.

    New Labour may have been a great time for some voters on here but I'd be surprised if there were half as many enthusiastic Labour voters in the previous few elections as there was recently in 2017, were do you think the massive surge in the membership came from, the massive engagement on social media and the big increase in youth turnout?

    The current form of Labour may not be to your liking but I think you are confusing your views with the general public. This is the most popular Labour have been for many years.

    I think the problem is people who think Labour have gone way off to the crazy left and think the Tories have gone into some crazy nationalist right wing Brexit are not actually that big a part of the electorate but they are one that has been very well served for decades electorally and has quite an influence across the media so feel they are a bigger part of the electorate than they actually are. Hence the massive shock at both the Brexit vote and the 3 elections Corbyn took part in (maybe no.2 wasn't a shock)

    When you've dominated and believe you were in the majority or still are in the majority it can be difficult to understand why things aren't going the way you believe they should and believe others want them to as well.

    I don't want this to sound condescending or come across as a lecture just I believe it is easier for even a less educated/insightful person to see this from the outside than it can be from the inside. Also the post was generally aimed at a few posts in that direction rather than just yours.

    As a sort of example to my point a few people complained about having to seriously consider spoiling their ballot / abstaining for the first time. Which is a sham,e as someone who missed a few elections I know what it is like to have nothing to vote for. In terms of voters at large though participation has gone up, quite a bit among the young many feeling like they have something they want to vote for at last, so I don't think Labour should be criticised for a small group feeling politically homeless when they engaged a much larger one which felt homeless.

    Lastly, as someone who has gone the opposite way thanks to the change in Labour I might be tempted to say sorry but it is my turn to get a chance to vote for a bit, you've had years of what you wanted.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 28,617

    Southam said:

    Imagine surprise to find May has emerged from reshuffle looking weaker and Corbyn has clearly and unequivocally decided to have another row with the PLP

    Worst government ever

    Worst opposition ever

    It’s their uselessness that is maintaining their polling performances: 40% of the country is deeply anti-Tory, 40% is deeply anti-Labour; only tiny proportions of voters - very strongly represented on PB - are positively for either party these days.

    Lastly, as someone who has gone the opposite way thanks to the change in Labour I might be tempted to say sorry but it is my turn to get a chance to vote for a bit, you've had years of what you wanted.
    If you wrote that from a 'previously disenfranchised Conservative's perspective' you could expect a whole world of abuse from your 'betters'.....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,088

    Southam said:

    Imagine surprise to find May has emerged from reshuffle looking weaker and Corbyn has clearly and unequivocally decided to have another row with the PLP

    Worst government ever

    Worst opposition ever

    It’s their uselessness that is maintaining their polling performances: 40% of the country is deeply anti-Tory, 40% is deeply anti-Labour; only tiny proportions of voters - very strongly represented on PB - are positively for either party these days.

    Lastly, as someone who has gone the opposite way thanks to the change in Labour I might be tempted to say sorry but it is my turn to get a chance to vote for a bit, you've had years of what you wanted.
    If you wrote that from a 'previously disenfranchised Conservative's perspective' you could expect a whole world of abuse from your 'betters'.....
    Have you airbrushed out of history Hague, IDS and Howard's leadership? The Europhobes had their turn and buggered it up.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 28,617

    Southam said:

    Imagine surprise to find May has emerged from reshuffle looking weaker and Corbyn has clearly and unequivocally decided to have another row with the PLP

    Worst government ever

    Worst opposition ever

    It’s their uselessness that is maintaining their polling performances: 40% of the country is deeply anti-Tory, 40% is deeply anti-Labour; only tiny proportions of voters - very strongly represented on PB - are positively for either party these days.

    Lastly, as someone who has gone the opposite way thanks to the change in Labour I might be tempted to say sorry but it is my turn to get a chance to vote for a bit, you've had years of what you wanted.
    If you wrote that from a 'previously disenfranchised Conservative's perspective' you could expect a whole world of abuse from your 'betters'.....
    Have you airbrushed out of history Hague, IDS and Howard's leadership? The Europhobes had their turn and buggered it up.
    As you've been explaining at length over Corbyn's gyrations over the Single Market.....LotO and PM are not the same job. I'm surprised there hasn't been more fuss over Remainer Lidington.....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,885

    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    Not satisfied with the poor headlines the Tories are getting, Jez has decided to get in on the game?

    Significant intervention that is going to anger lots or labour remainers
    Is it? They can hardly be surprised. It is the position of the status quo ante.
    It is also a pretty pointless debate, as unless Labour are in power before the end of the year, they cannot influence whether or not we are in the SM. As of April 2019, we are out and it becomes a dead issue. Labours Schrödinger's Brexit is never going to have its box opened.
    Indeed. What is more there seems to be some idea that most Labour supporters/members are deluded and don't understand the position. The truth is they do. They just don' t care in the same visceral way that many Conservatives do.
    I've mentioned this a few times as well, I think Nick Palmer has mentioned this once or twice as well.

    Brexit isn't anywhere near the top issue for Labour voters the same way it is for Conservative voters or for many on here. That attempted wedge in the Labour support against Corbyn has been tried multiple times and failed miserably because it isn't the main issue.

    I also fail to see how a storm out and an argument will achieve what mass resignations and a coup before the general election, voting to trigger article 50 and a resignation and a few firings just after the election failed to achieve.

    But if there really is some huge remainer block voting for Corbyn purely for staying in the EU rather than other reasons as well who haven't got a clue what is going on (more so than the the average voter) that have basically missed almost everything why would they suddenly start processing information and turn against Corbyn now or over the next few years?

    It has mainly been the weapon of choice for labour centrists to attack him with since they realised the rest of his platform is mostly pretty popular. A lot of the people who seem to think this approach will cause damage are the same people who have underestimated Corbyn several other times since his nomination for the leadership, they may be right this time but I expect it is another false dawn.
    If public opinion shifts significantly, Labour will follow; if it doesn't, they won't. They just need to be a bit less Brexit than the Tories in order to ensure that blame for its adverse consequences sticks where it belongs.
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