Are we to believe this account? It smacks rather of post hoc rationalisation, and is Nick Timothy really that powerful or is this to be understood as code for the PM herself?
I have no idea of the veracity of these rumours but what is certain is that there are factions within the party all jockeying for position when either TM decides to call it a day or more likely is asked to stand down ( but not before Brexit is clearer).
I respect Hyfud for his knowledge of all things conservative but I absolutely do not agree Boris, Davis, Mogg or Gove will get anywhere near the leadership.
A new face is needed and also time which is what TM is providing.
While the cabinet was largely unchanged new faces have been promoted and Brandon Lewis has made a good high profile media start to his Chairmanship.
I do not think remain or leave will be relevant to TM's successor and expect a surprise or two on the way
If it is not Boris, Davis, Gove or Mogg then Williamson and Hinds are now well placed (with Mourdaunt and Lewis and Bradley and McVey and Hancock outside shots) as the key new and younger faces in the Cabinet following the reshuffle. No PM has got the post in government without having been in the Cabinet first
There is always a first time
You can go from the backbenches or junior minister to opposition leader on rare occasions as Corbyn has, you cannot do the same for PM, you just do not have the experience of coping under that level of pressure
You've long persisted in this view that they cannot, when what you mean is theyshould not do the same for PM. That and other reasons will mean it has not happened, not that it never will.
Well anything is possible of or Leader of the Opposition.
As evidenced by the benefit of their experience offered to us all by one Mr Brown and Mrs May?
Or Eden, Macmillan, Home, Callaghan, Major and virtually every other PM who has taken over in government
Apart from Macmillan, not a great track record....
The best PMs almost all come in afresh from opposition as they have a mandate and a chance to get their programme through while their government is relatively new
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
I agree with you on your post. The NHS and social care needs big picture non politicised stuff on funding and capacity. But today it is not acceptable how things are, and this was something that everyone saw coming.
I've just come back from nearly a fortnight dealing with social care and elderly health issues in Italy...and this is with someone who was accessing timely services. My heart goes out to those particularly elderly people an d their families who are left waiting and helpless at the most vulnerable time in their lives.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
I think that the move towards consensus is gathering momentum and is urgently needed
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
No matter how much they get it is wasted, crisis after crisis and and they are back with the begging bowl. They are obviously incompetent, whole structure needs a root and branch reorganisation.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
I agree with you on your post. The NHS and social care needs big picture non politicised stuff on funding and capacity. But today it is not acceptable how things are, and this was something that everyone saw coming.
I've just come back from nearly a fortnight dealing with social care and elderly health issues in Italy...and this is with someone who was accessing timely services. My heart goes out to those particularly elderly people an d their families who are left waiting and helpless at the most vulnerable time in their lives.
To be fair TM tried to address it in her ill fated manifesto and the outrage over the dementia tax, together with labour incredibly backing the triple lock on pensions, together with the WFA, has created an enormous stone wall on the way forward.
If labour had been progressive and not blatantly stupid they would have accepted constraints on pensions and the WFA
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
I think that the move towards consensus is gathering momentum and is urgently needed
No point having a broad agreement amongst those that don't have a clue. We cannot afford the NHS we'd like to have. We can't afford the welfare state we'd like to have. We can get very close, and we've done that, and magnificently so, but it won't wash in the long term.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
No matter how much they get it is wasted, crisis after crisis and and they are back with the begging bowl. They are obviously incompetent, whole structure needs a root and branch reorganisation.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
You have made the point a few times but NIC will not go near the cost, let alone the demand to help students fees, increase police numbers and abolish the public sector pay cap.
This is the reason I think Corbyn and McDonnell will struggle as we are now facing a national debate and how to pay for our public services without wholly unacceptable tax rises
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
You have made the point a few times but NIC will not go near the cost, let alone the demand to help students fees, increase police numbers and abolish the public sector pay cap.
This is the reason I think Corbyn and McDonnell will struggle as we are now facing a national debate and how to pay for our public services without wholly unacceptable tax rises
Does best Big John Owls impression...but but it is all fully costed and only the mega wealthy will pay more....no laughing at the back.
More seriously, the Tories should be shredding Labour on this stuff week after week. That is what Osborne did to Miliband and Balls from day one in government, and Miliband's stuff was far less bonkers.
Anything Eddie proposed, Osborne and fellow travelers got out straight away and started to make it clear how much more that would cost and no such thing as a free lunch. They planted the seed that Labour meant higher taxes for everybody, no matter what Team Ed were wittering about.
Not a political point but how we treat old people in this country is a disgrace - partly as a result of the institutional set-up but partly because of culture too - the much maligned extended family set-up is gone. Compare and contrast to a more family orientated set-up that exists in other countries (Med countries, South Asian countries).
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
You have made the point a few times but NIC will not go near the cost, let alone the demand to help students fees, increase police numbers and abolish the public sector pay cap.
This is the reason I think Corbyn and McDonnell will struggle as we are now facing a national debate and how to pay for our public services without wholly unacceptable tax rises
Does best Big John Owls impression...but but it is all fully costed and only the mega wealthy will pay more....no laughing at the back.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
Hypothecation is a crap idea
No it was a very sensible idea when National Insurance was set up for state healthcare, state pensions and unemployment insurance, it is moving away from it that has caused the problems
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
Presumably the billions of pounds wasted on the cancelled ill-advised IT system was foisted on the NHS (?) How far would that amount of dough, properly spent, help?
Gavin Williamson looks like an intern on work experience.
Not a possible PM.
Interestingly, he got his degree in social sciences from Bradford University.
I don't rate him at all. He just does not look the part as PM.
Corbyn does not either and at least Williamson completed his degree unlike the leader of the opposition who dropped out of his course at London Metropolitan University
Corbyn has a certain amount of charisma, particularly when campaigning. The Tories need someone who can inspire others not send them to sleep.
Do they? They still managed to win 56 more seats than Corbyn led Labour in June despite a very dull leader and one of the worst campaigns in history. Though if charisma is needed for a majority Boris is still by far and away the best on that score
He is, but more than anyone else in frontline politics he appears to stand for precisely nothing. The Tories look tired out - more than a charismatic leader they need a leader who has a concept for what their purpose is, after Brexit's done.
Keeping taxes lower than under Corbyn would be a start, it at least worked for Major in 1992. Though I can't see the Tories stretching the elastic more than 1 more term and then it will largely because of Corbyn as it was because of Kinnock in large part they got a 4th term in 1992
If the Tories scraped another election, which I severely doubt....it would probably be the end of the party. Their best hope is for Labour to win with a weak coalition Govt and watch from the sidelines for a few years or so....
You may be right but it would not be the end of the party, even in 1997 almost a third of the country voted for them
Another defeat would reignite the Labour civil war, as Corbynites searched for a stab in the back myth to explain their defeat and the party's more pro-EU liberal wing would see the biggest chance to halt or moderate Brexit away from the one Tories and their Kipper tendency want as having been squandered. The tenuous good will that's currently there thanks to unexpectedly avoiding a wipe out in 2017 and the realisation that the Tories veering to the right and engaging in a bit of a culture war (one of the few areas both factions agree on) would swiftly evaporate.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
You have made the point a few times but NIC will not go near the cost, let alone the demand to help students fees, increase police numbers and abolish the public sector pay cap.
This is the reason I think Corbyn and McDonnell will struggle as we are now facing a national debate and how to pay for our public services without wholly unacceptable tax rises
Students fees should be kept but based on the status of the institution and the graduate premium, Corbyn and McDonnell of course will increase taxes on the rich only they say and borrow the rest.
On healthcare we could also require those who can afford it to take out private health insurance as Australia does
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
You have made the point a few times but NIC will not go near the cost, let alone the demand to help students fees, increase police numbers and abolish the public sector pay cap.
This is the reason I think Corbyn and McDonnell will struggle as we are now facing a national debate and how to pay for our public services without wholly unacceptable tax rises
Corbyn won't do a small rise here and a small rise there with taxes. He's a socialist - he wants to take all of the money and stick it in a big pool. His pool.
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
Gavin Williamson looks like an intern on work experience.
Not a possible PM.
Interestingly, he got his degree in social sciences from Bradford University.
I don't rate him at all. He just does not look the part as PM.
Corbyn does not either and at least Williamson completed his degree unlike the leader of the opposition who dropped out of his course at London Metropolitan University
Corbyn has a certain amount of charisma, particularly when campaigning. The Tories need someone who can inspire others not send them to sleep.
Do they? They still managed to win 56 more seats than Corbyn led Labour in June despite a very dull leader and one of the worst campaigns in history. Though if charisma is needed for a majority Boris is still by far and away the best on that score
He is, but more than anyone else in frontline politics he appears to stand for precisely nothing. The Tories look tired out - more than a charismatic leader they need a leader who has a concept for what their purpose is, after Brexit's done.
Keeping taxes lower than stretching the elastic more than 1 more term and then it will largely because of Corbyn as it was because of Kinnock in large part they got a 4th term in 1992
If the Tories scraped or so....
You may be right but it would not be the end of the party, even in 1997 almost a third of the country voted for them
Another defeat would reignite the Labour civil war, as Corbynites searched for a stab in the back myth to explain their defeat and the party's more pro-EU liberal wing would see the biggest chance to halt or moderate Brexit away from the one Tories and their Kipper tendency want as having been squandered. The tenuous good will that's currently there thanks to unexpectedly avoiding a wipe out in 2017 and the realisation that the Tories veering to the right and engaging in a bit of a culture war (one of the few areas both factions agree on) would swiftly evaporate.
No government has won a fifth term since 1826 and Lord Liverpool and I doubt this government would be any different. If Corbyn lost a second time I would expect Labour to pick a younger more centrist leader and perhaps if immigration had fallen by then commit to returning to the single market too
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
I find that comment astonishing. The winter NHS crisis has been a feeding frenzy from the left, not only labour but the left leaning broadcast media, but it has not worked out as they would hope as the realisation by the populace that the monies now being demanded (30 billion a year) are on a scale not otherwise thought and the source of this money, and indeed the amount, must come under the microscope of public opinion.
Indeed the lib dems have been calling for cross party consensus for a long time
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
I find that comment astonishing. The winter NHS crisis has been a feeding frenzy from the left, not only labour but the left leaning broadcast media, but it has not worked out as they would hope as the realisation by the populace that the monies now being demanded (30 billion a year) are on a scale not otherwise thought and the source of this money, and indeed the amount, must come under the microscope of public opinion.
Indeed the lib dems have been calling for cross party consensus for a long time
Wake up to your own biases. The right here (and elsewhere) are ready to propose a commission, insurance, co-pay, fees or some other part of their long held agenda to move away a taxpayer funded NHS.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
fnarrr. This did not happen last wednesday, then?
"The Leader of the Opposition, Jeremy Corbyn, asked questions on NHS winter preparedness, A&E waiting times, cancellation of operations, social care, NHS funding and the role of private companies in the NHS."
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
I find that comment astonishing. The winter NHS crisis has been a feeding frenzy from the left, not only labour but the left leaning broadcast media, but it has not worked out as they would hope as the realisation by the populace that the monies now being demanded (30 billion a year) are on a scale not otherwise thought and the source of this money, and indeed the amount, must come under the microscope of public opinion.
Indeed the lib dems have been calling for cross party consensus for a long time
Wake up to your own biases. The right here (and elsewhere) are ready to propose a commission, insurance, co-pay, fees or some other part of their long held agenda to move away a taxpayer funded NHS.
Yet they haven't moved away from a taxpayer funded NHS in the 25 years they've been in power since 1979.
What we really need to consider is whether all the extra billions used to keep sick oldies lingering for a few months longer with dreadful quality of life might be better spent at other times in people's lives.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
My thanks for setting out this idea in a neat form.
The idea that point 1) is not political, that a royal commission can determine this, that Labour and the Conservatives could agree... I think it’s nonsense.
It is a fundamentally political question of what is the role of the state.
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
The Queen giving an interview with Alistair Bruce on her Coronation on BBC1 now
Forced to sit in a room with that program on, as a Republican I must admit that she's holding up really well. "Private Eye" do your stuff.
Well she is 91 and her mother lived to 101. If she lives that long or longer Charles would be almost 80 before he becomes King
Maybe, like Jeanne Louise Calment, she'll make another 30 odd years.
At which point she may even outlive Charles and William would succeed her, perhaps even Prince George, Jeanne Louise Calment outlived both her daughter and grandson
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
Also, it is worth pointing out the Labour Record in Education in Wales. Just as bad as the record in Health.
Bottom. Bottom of the 4 nations that comprise the UK in any objective measure such as international tables.
Still, people who live in Oxfordshire always think they know best about Wales.
I have been to The Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend every day since October 11th. Not once have I seen anything like the chaos Mr NorthWales sees within Betsi Cadwalladr Trust. I have nor experiences people dying on trolleys or ambulances parked three deep waiting to offload patients. POW hospital in Bridgend has form. My mother died there in the midst of the 2011 scandal, and the service she received then was outrageously poor. Two nurses served custodial sentence and in my view Managers and LABOUR politicians from Cardiff Bay should well have joined then. The service was negligent! Now what I experience is for the mist part very good.
I have no time for Corbyn and his idea of throwing money at the NHS exemplifies how useless he is.
The NHS can't cope because of how successful it has been in lengthening lives in the UK.
Gavin Williamson looks like an intern on work experience.
Not a possible PM.
Interestingly, he got his degree in social sciences from Bradford University.
I don't rate him at all. He just does not look the part as PM.
If the Tories scraped or so....
You may be right but it would not be the end of the party, even in 1997 almost a third of the country voted for them
No government has won a fifth term since 1826 and Lord Liverpool and I doubt this government would be any different. If Corbyn lost a second time I would expect Labour to pick a younger more centrist leader and perhaps if immigration had fallen by then commit to returning to the single market too
That would be the sensible thing to do, and Corbyn would undoubtedly go - but I doubt that would presage a return to the centre. Momentum and co are pretty well entrenched - they will soon have total control of the NEC and so would shape the next contest. Most likely it's between a Corbynite-ultra with the tacit backing of the man himself, the Momentum machine and full support of McDonnell and a soft-left candidate who stuck with Corbyn (Thornberry, Rayner). If 2016 is any guide, it will be ugly - Rayner's already had a few warning shots fired at her for hinting the leader may not be right about everything. The Labour Party didn't respond rationally to defeat in 2015, I see no reason why it would now, especially given the transformation in the membership.
The gamechanger would be if the unions swing to the centre, which is a real possibility. McCluskey looks to be on the way out and even if he isn't replaced by a card carrying moderate, whoever it is won't have the same extensive array of personal connections to the Corbyn project. Prentis is very much a conditional Corbynite, and the GMB are antagonistic.
Take your point about 5 term governments, but this has by no means been a traditional governing period. First of all, they governed with the Lib Dems, then had a two year term dominated by the referendum. Now, May is largely running a Brexit government rather than a Tory one. It's quite a different situation to say, Major or New Labour where tired governments were losing their grip on the spirit of the age.
Gavin Williamson looks like an intern on work experience.
Not a possible PM.
I think he'll be very popular with Tory voters, especially in places that are swinging to the Conservatives like Staffordshire where his constituency is.
Gavin Williamson looks like an intern on work experience.
Not a possible PM.
Interestingly, he got his degree in socialthe part as PM.
If the Tories scraped or so....
You may be right but it would not be the end of the party, even in 1997 almost a third of the country voted for them
No government market too
That would be the sensible thing to do, and Corbyn would undoubtedly go - but I doubt that would presage a return to the centre. Momentum and co are pretty well entrenched - they will soon have total control of the NEC and so would shape the next contest. Most likely it's between a Corbynite-ultra with the tacit backing of the man himself, the Momentum machine and full support of McDonnell and a soft-left candidate who stuck with Corbyn (Thornberry, Rayner). If 2016 is any guide, it will be ugly - Rayner's already had a few warning shots fired at her for hinting the leader may not be right about everything. The Labour Party didn't respond rationally to defeat in 2015, I see no reason why it would now, especially given the transformation in the membership.
The gamechanger would be if the unions swing to the centre, which is a real possibility. McCluskey looks to be on the way out and even if he isn't replaced by a card carrying moderate, whoever it is won't have the same extensive array of personal connections to the Corbyn project. Prentis is very much a conditional Corbynite, and the GMB are antagonistic.
Take your point about 5 term governments, but this has by no means been a traditional governing period. First of all, they governed with the Lib Dems, then had a two year term dominated by the referendum. Now, May is largely running a Brexit government rather than a Tory one. It's quite a different situation to say, Major or New Labour where tired governments were losing their grip on the spirit of the age.
A leadership poll last year of Labour members as to who they wanted to succeed Corbyn had McDonnell and Cooper tied first with Stamer and Umunna close behind and tied for third. For the voters Coalition or Brexit we are in the 3rd term of a Tory led government, you can only stretch the elastic for so long
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
I find that comment astonishing. The winter NHS crisis has been a feeding frenzy from the left, not only labour but the left leaning broadcast media, but it has not worked out as they would hope as the realisation by the populace that the monies now being demanded (30 billion a year) are on a scale not otherwise thought and the source of this money, and indeed the amount, must come under the microscope of public opinion.
Indeed the lib dems have been calling for cross party consensus for a long time
Wake up to your own biases. The right here (and elsewhere) are ready to propose a commission, insurance, co-pay, fees or some other part of their long held agenda to move away a taxpayer funded NHS.
Rubbish and a typical leftie nonsense story.
An Independent Royal Commission and/or a cross party consensus is the way forward but of course terrifies labour as it would prevent their continued weaponising of it.
The future ballooning costs of the NHS and Social care will need alternative means of funding otherwise in time it will swallow 100% of out taxes The Providers are wanting in excess of 150 billion by 2020 and that equates to an extra 5% in tax and that just for the NHS.
If the public sector pay freeze is to be lifted, student fees reappraised, increases in police and prison staff etc are added then it is not sustainable from tax
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
I find that comment astonishing. The winter NHS crisis has been a feeding frenzy from the left, not only labour but the left leaning broadcast media, but it has not worked out as they would hope as the realisation by the populace that the monies now being demanded (30 billion a year) are on a scale not otherwise thought and the source of this money, and indeed the amount, must come under the microscope of public opinion.
Indeed the lib dems have been calling for cross party consensus for a long time
Wake up to your own biases. The right here (and elsewhere) are ready to propose a commission, insurance, co-pay, fees or some other part of their long held agenda to move away a taxpayer funded NHS.
As someone else has said, if that is their ambition they have done a cracking job of hiding it.
Just out of interest, what ought to happen if it turns out that the best thing, for taxpayers, is something other than a purely taxpayer funded NHS? Or is such a thing conceptually impossible?
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
Also, it is worth pointing out the Labour Record in Education in Wales. Just as bad as the record in Health.
Bottom. Bottom of the 4 nations that comprise the UK in any objective measure such as international tables.
Still, people who live in Oxfordshire always think they know best about Wales.
I have been to The Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend every day since October 11th. Not once have I seen anything like the chaos Mr NorthWales sees within Betsi Cadwalladr Trust. I have nor experiences people dying on trolleys or ambulances parked three deep waiting to offload patients. POW hospital in Bridgend has form. My mother died there in the midst of the 2011 scandal, and the service she received then was outrageously poor. Two nurses served custodial sentence and in my view Managers and LABOUR politicians from Cardiff Bay should well have joined then. The service was negligent! Now what I experience is for the mist part very good.
I have no time for Corbyn and his idea of throwing money at the NHS exemplifies how useless he is.
The NHS can't cope because of how successful it has been in lengthening lives in the UK.
My Uncle lives in Llanfairfechan (Betsi Cadwaladr). He has been waiting for a hip replacement for 18 months.
It is not Big G & YBarddCwsc making all this up. Here is the BBC:
If the average is 226 days for hip replacements in Wales, then the statistics will be particularly grim in the worst-of-all-performing Betsi Cadwaladr.
I would like to see a proper comparison between education & health in Wales and in roughly equivalent districts in Scotland (say Central Belt) and England (North East).
I think it would be enlightening to see how those regions are performing in health & education under the different regimes.
I have little hope that Wales will be anything other than bottom.
The idea that Health is non political and that we can have a royal commission to decide whether we fund via direct taxation, insurance or out of pocket payments is bizarre.
We might as well set up a royal commission to determine the level of income tax.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
Wales NHS is in crisis - every night on Wales ITV it has story after story of failure in the service even last week airing a whistleblower who has been closed down by the Health Secretary following evidence of nepotism and favouritism within the service and Wales labour.
Our weekly paper attacks our local service on a regular basis. You may have had good service but that is not true of most patients in Wales
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
I find that comment astonishing. The winter NHS crisis has been a feeding frenzy from the left, not only labour but the left leaning broadcast media, but it has not worked out as they would hope as the realisation by the populace that the monies now being demanded (30 billion a year) are on a scale not otherwise thought and the source of this money, and indeed the amount, must come under the microscope of public opinion.
Indeed the lib dems have been calling for cross party consensus for a long time
Wake up to your own biases. The right here (and elsewhere) are ready to propose a commission, insurance, co-pay, fees or some other part of their long held agenda to move away a taxpayer funded NHS.
Rubbish and a typical leftie nonsense story.
An Independent Royal Commission and/or a cross party consensus is the way forward but of course terrifies labour as it would prevent their continued weaponising of it.
The future ballooning costs of the NHS and Social care will need alternative means of funding otherwise in time it will swallow 100% of out taxes The Providers are wanting in excess of 150 billion by 2020 and that equates to an extra 5% in tax and that just for the NHS.
If the public sector pay freeze is to be lifted, student fees reappraised, increases in police and prison staff etc are added then it is not sustainable from tax
Where is the magic money that can't be raised through taxation?
All you mean by that is that you no longer want to pay for other people's healthcare, you only want to pay for your own, and you believe that you will be better off as a result. Most people wouldn't be, of course.
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
Also, it is worth pointing out the Labour Record in Education in Wales. Just as bad as the record in Health.
Bottom. Bottom of the 4 nations that comprise the UK in any objective measure such as international tables.
Still, people who live in Oxfordshire always think they know best about Wales.
I have been to The Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend every day since October 11th. Not once have I seen anything like the chaos Mr NorthWales sees within Betsi Cadwalladr Trust. I have nor experiences people dying on trolleys or ambulances parked three deep waiting to offload patients. POW hospital in Bridgend has form. My mother died there in the midst of the 2011 scandal, and the service she received then was outrageously poor. Two nurses served custodial sentence and in my view Managers and LABOUR politicians from Cardiff Bay should well have joined then. The service was negligent! Now what I experience is for the mist part very good.
I have no time for Corbyn and his idea of throwing money at the NHS exemplifies how useless he is.
The NHS can't cope because of how successful it has been in lengthening lives in the UK.
My Uncle lives in Llanfairfechan (Betsi Cadwaladr). He has been waiting for a hip replacement for 18 months.
It is not Big G & YBarddCwsc making all this up. Here is the BBC:
If the average is 226 days for hip replacements in Wales, then the statistics will be particularly grim in the worst-of-all-performing Betsi Cadwaladr.
I would like to see a proper comparison between education & health in Wales and in roughly equivalent districts in Scotland (say Central Belt) and England (North East).
I think it would be enlightening to see how those regions are performing in health & education under the different regimes.
I have little hope that Wales will be anything other than bottom.
Having just re-read my last comment I see your point about the poor standard (spelling, grammar and punctuation) of Education in Wales! (University College, Cardiff)
An Independent Royal Commission and/or a cross party consensus is the way forward but of course terrifies labour as it would prevent their continued weaponising of it.
The future ballooning costs of the NHS and Social care will need alternative means of funding otherwise in time it will swallow 100% of out taxes The Providers are wanting in excess of 150 billion by 2020 and that equates to an extra 5% in tax and that just for the NHS.
If the public sector pay freeze is to be lifted, student fees reappraised, increases in police and prison staff etc are added then it is not sustainable from tax
Where is the magic money that can't be raised through taxation?
All you mean by that is that you no longer want to pay for other people's healthcare, you only want to pay for your own, and you believe that you will be better off as a result. Most people wouldn't be, of course.
Pardon - My wife is 78 and I am 74 and it is more than possible we will have to pay, as things stand, thousands of pounds for our care out of our pension and savings.
I believe in everyone paying their fair share of tax to support public services but those public services have to be accountable for value for money and efficiency.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
Wales NHS is in crisis - every night on Wales ITV it has story after story of failure in the service even last week airing a whistleblower who has been closed down by the Health Secretary following evidence of nepotism and favouritism within the service and Wales labour.
Our weekly paper attacks our local service on a regular basis. You may have had good service but that is not true of most patients in Wales
You quote the nightly reports on ITV Wales every time we have this conversation. I prefer BBC Wales Today. It is a scandal that Jamie Owen has left!
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
Also, it is worth pointing out the Labour Record in Education in Wales. Just as bad as the record in Health.
Bottom. Bottom of the 4 nations that comprise the UK in any objective measure such as international tables.
Still, people who live in Oxfordshire always think they know best about Wales.
I have been to The Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend every day since October 11th. Not once have I seen anything like the chaos Mr NorthWales sees within Betsi Cadwalladr Trust. I have nor experiences people dying on trolleys or ambulances parked three deep waiting to offload patients. POW hospital in Bridgend has form. My mother died there in the midst of the 2011 scandal, and the service she received then was outrageously poor. Two nurses served custodial sentence and in my view Managers and LABOUR politicians from Cardiff Bay should well have joined then. The service was negligent! Now what I experience is for the mist part very good.
I have no time for Corbyn and his idea of throwing money at the NHS exemplifies how useless he is.
The NHS can't cope because of how successful it has been in lengthening lives in the UK.
Just as a matter of interest do you live in Wales and watch the Wales regional news on ITV
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
Also, it is worth pointing out the Labour Record in Education in Wales. Just as bad as the record in Health.
Bottom. Bottom of the 4 nations that comprise the UK in any objective measure such as international tables.
Still, people who live in Oxfordshire always think they know best about Wales.
I have been to The Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend every day since October 11th. Not once have I seen anything like the chaos Mr NorthWales sees within Betsi Cadwalladr Trust. I have nor experiences people dying on trolleys or ambulances parked three deep waiting to offload patients. POW hospital in Bridgend has form. My mother died there in the midst of the 2011 scandal, and the service she received then was outrageously poor. Two nurses served custodial sentence and in my view Managers and LABOUR politicians from Cardiff Bay should well have joined then. The service was negligent! Now what I experience is for the mist part very good.
I have no time for Corbyn and his idea of throwing money at the NHS exemplifies how useless he is.
The NHS can't cope because of how successful it has been in lengthening lives in the UK.
My Uncle lives in Llanfairfechan (Betsi Cadwaladr). He has been waiting for a hip replacement for 18 months.
It is not Big G & YBarddCwsc making all this up. Here is the BBC:
If the average is 226 days for hip replacements in Wales, then the statistics will be particularly grim in the worst-of-all-performing Betsi Cadwaladr.
I would like to see a proper comparison between education & health in Wales and in roughly equivalent districts in Scotland (say Central Belt) and England (North East).
I think it would be enlightening to see how those regions are performing in health & education under the different regimes.
I have little hope that Wales will be anything other than bottom.
My bi lateral hernia operation was diagnosed in July 2016 and I waited until November 2017 so similar to your uncle under Betsi Cadwaladr
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
Also, it is worth pointing out the Labour Record in Education in Wales. Just as bad as the record in Health.
Bottom. Bottom of the 4 nations that comprise the UK in any objective measure such as international tables.
Still, people who live in Oxfordshire always think they know best about Wales.
I have been to The Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend every day since October 11th. Not once have I seen anything like the chaos Mr NorthWales sees within Betsi Cadwalladr Trust. I have nor experiences people dying on trolleys or ambulances parked three deep waiting to offload patients. POW hospital in Bridgend has form. My mother died there in the midst of the 2011 scandal, and the service she received then was outrageously poor. Two nurses served custodial sentence and in my view Managers and LABOUR politicians from Cardiff Bay should well have joined then. The service was negligent! Now what I experience is for the mist part very good.
I have no time for Corbyn and his idea of throwing money at the NHS exemplifies how useless he is.
The NHS can't cope because of how successful it has been in lengthening lives in the UK.
Just as a matter of interest do you live in Wales and watch the Wales regional news on ITV
In the fiefdom of Cairns! (Vale of Glamorgan). I tend to watch BBC Wales Today, although Lucy Owen is rather annoying.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
Wales NHS is in crisis - every night on Wales ITV it has story after story of failure in the service even last week airing a whistleblower who has been closed down by the Health Secretary following evidence of nepotism and favouritism within the service and Wales labour.
Our weekly paper attacks our local service on a regular basis. You may have had good service but that is not true of most patients in Wales
You quote the nightly reports on ITV Wales every time we have this conversation. I prefer BBC Wales Today. It is a scandal that Jamie Owen has left!
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
The NHS is not sustainable in its current form and with the expectation that the over 85 population is set to double in the next few years the situation can only get much, much worse.
Corbyn does not have an answer. The answer will come from some free-marketeer, like, dare-I-say Jeremy Hunt.
It was interesting that in all the many NHS reports last week one hospital A & E undertook a swab test on all suspected flu patients and within half an hour a diagnosis was received and most were not flu and were sent home. However, it appears this was an initiative at this hospital but not general practice.
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
Why
I don’t want changes to way NHS is funded.
In that case it will die.
The first necessary step to sort out NHS funding is to set up an English Parliament as in Scotland etc. so its financing can be isolated and clarified.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
You are Alun Cairns and I claim my £5! You take every opportunity to slag off the Welsh NHS. It is not as bad as you claim, and I will also dispute the spurious statistics HYUFD will doubtless find to prove your point.
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
Wales NHS is in crisis - every night on Wales ITV it has story after story of failure in the service even last week airing a whistleblower who has been closed down by the Health Secretary following evidence of nepotism and favouritism within the service and Wales labour.
Our weekly paper attacks our local service on a regular basis. You may have had good service but that is not true of most patients in Wales
You quote the nightly reports on ITV Wales every time we have this conversation. I prefer BBC Wales Today. It is a scandal that Jamie Owen has left!
Are you saying ITV Wales are making things up.
And with respect do you live in Wales
No, although they might have a reporter with an agenda.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
Hypothecation is a crap idea
No it was a very sensible idea when National Insurance was set up for state healthcare, state pensions and unemployment insurance, it is moving away from it that has caused the problems
NICs were *never* hypothecated.
Politicians just said that was what they were for.
Hypothecation is profoundly undemocratic - it prevents politicians from determining resource allocation - as well as being fiscally damaging
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
Presumably the billions of pounds wasted on the cancelled ill-advised IT system was foisted on the NHS (?) How far would that amount of dough, properly spent, help?
Not much - it was (from memory) about £11bn in total.
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
Why
I don’t want changes to way NHS is funded.
In that case it will die.
Why would you ditch the most efficient health system in the world.
You do know 8% of GDP is less than almost everywhere else.
Tax needs raising end of
Every alternative is a GE loser that would make the Dementia tax look popular IMO
And as most people are reluctant to pay more tax and especially the equivalent of 5p on the basic rate it will be starved of funds and collapse.
And you do know that many of those spending more GDP do have additional revenue streams into their service.
Has any other country cut Social Care budgets by a third in the last 7 years £14,8 Bn cut.
Crazy
Considering former "iron Chancellor" Gordon Brown ended his tenure as PM leaving the nation with a worse budget deficit than Greece had (!) what would you have cut instead?
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
Why
I don’t want changes to way NHS is funded.
In that case it will die.
Why would you ditch the most efficient health system in the world.
You do know 8% of GDP is less than almost everywhere else.
Tax needs raising end of
Every alternative is a GE loser that would make the Dementia tax look popular IMO
Not sure I suggested you should.
I think there needs to be greater personal responsibility. I think there needs to be reforms in the way it works, in efficiencies, in Drs contracts, the way the public interacts with it and the exponential rise in use of A&E needs to be reversed.
I can't accept the NHS is perfect and needs no change in funding or systems. The works changes, the NHS needs to change too.
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
I’m not a politician. Health is a critical service with massive positive externalities. I want it to be delivered as effectively as possible for a given level of resources.
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant on an unregulated banking sector that collapsed the tax receipts for the economy. But as with any economic crisis the party in power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Nick Boles has indicated hypothecated NICs to pay for the NHS, ultimately either that or higher income tax is likely with greater efficiencies to cut costs
Hypothecation is a crap idea
No it was a very sensible idea when National Insurance was set up for state healthcare, state pensions and unemployment insurance, it is moving away from it that has caused the problems
You keep repeating this but its nonsense. Not only was NI never hypothecated but the amount spent on Health and Pensions and Unemployment vastly, vastly exceeds the amounts generated by National Insurance. Thanks to the baby boomers retiring and healthcare inflation that is only set to get worse.
If NI was being spent on more than just healthcare and pensions etc you may have a point but you well and truly don't. If we were to return to a hypothecated system that we never had then you would have to slash pension or healthcare spending dramatically.
Well of course living in Cowbridge you have tbe conservative secretary of state for Wales as your MP which will account for the excellent health care you are experiencing.
But to be serious ITV Wales do source the information properly and it is a constant attack on health and education which some of us have had bitter personal experience off
Not only is it up every year but onshore corporation tax raises 20% more revenue now than it did at its peak pre-crash in 2007/08. It raises nearly double now than it did in 2003/04.
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
I find that comment astonishing. The winter NHS crisis has been a feeding frenzy from the left, not only labour but the left leaning broadcast media, but it has not worked out as they would hope as the realisation by the populace that the monies now being demanded (30 billion a year) are on a scale not otherwise thought and the source of this money, and indeed the amount, must come under the microscope of public opinion.
Indeed the lib dems have been calling for cross party consensus for a long time
Wake up to your own biases. The right here (and elsewhere) are ready to propose a commission, insurance, co-pay, fees or some other part of their long held agenda to move away a taxpayer funded NHS.
No. The commission may conclude the current structure is perfect
The Laffer Curve is a bigger myth than Santa isnt it?
Terrible analogy. Santa's very much real in his effects as are the Laffer Curves.
You may not believe in either but corporation tax revenues are smashing all records and my two young daughters got what they asked Santa for under the tree on 25th December. Ignore both at your peril!
@squareroot.... Do you honestly believe that stuff you write? The worst thing Labour did was to be so reliant onin power usually takes the hit.
The state of the NHS and Social Care today, this minute, is appalling and a tragedy caused by this Govt's ideology, ambivalence and sheer incompetence...;it is an absolute disgrace what people are facing this winter, many elderly and at their most vulnerable....
And no one has indicated how they intend filling the 30 billion annual funding gap as stated by the NHS providers this week. Furthermore the same problems are happening in the devolved goverments and in Wales's case more so
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
Twice in the last 5 years the NHS has been asked to budget what they need and, each time, that ask has been met in full.
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
My thanks for setting out this idea in a neat form.
The idea that point 1) is not political, that a royal commission can determine this, that Labour and the Conservatives could agree... I think it’s nonsense.
It is a fundamentally political question of what is the role of the state.
You are probably right - written in haste. It’s really what do we want to achieve (keep everyone alive for as long as possible etc).
Well of course living in Cowbridge you have tbe conservative secretary of state for Wales as your MP which will account for the excellent health care you are experiencing.
But to be serious ITV Wales do source the information properly and it is a constant attack on health and education which some of us have had bitter personal experience off
Cairns tried to buy the house next door to me, when he became MP for the Vale. He didn't! A few abandoned cars, vans and white-goods on the paddock for the day of his viewing did the trick!
To be fair Cairns is an excellent constituency MP. He did make a horlicks of his maiden speech, and he does come across as a bit 'twp' but he is growing into the role. In a recent head to head on TV with Steve Kinnock, Cairns edged it!
The Laffer Curve is a bigger myth than Santa isnt it?
You can ignore HMRC figures but they are confirmation of the increase tax take on lower corporation tax for all to see
Indeed which is why globally nations have been cutting their corporation tax rate.
Not to mention the multiplier effect that lower corporation tax rates generates more revenues for the exchequer through other means if companies expand.
Business rates, employers NI, NI on wages, Income Tax, Dividend Taxes, VAT and more all apply to businesses on top of the extra £11 billion in corporation tax revenues that the Treasury gets today than it did a decade ago.
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
The right seem to use the Winter crisis politically as the above point demonstrates.
I find that comment astonishing. The winter NHS crisis has been a feeding frenzy from the left, not only labour but the left leaning broadcast media, but it has not worked out as they would hope as the realisation by the populace that the monies now being demanded (30 billion a year) are on a scale not otherwise thought and the source of this money, and indeed the amount, must come under the microscope of public opinion.
Indeed the lib dems have been calling for cross party consensus for a long time
Wake up to your own biases. The right here (and elsewhere) are ready to propose a commission, insurance, co-pay, fees or some other part of their long held agenda to move away a taxpayer funded NHS.
No. The commission may conclude the current structure is perfect
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
Why
I don’t want changes to way NHS is funded.
In that case it will die.
Why would you ditch the most efficient health system in the world.
You do know 8% of GDP is less than almost everywhere else.
Tax needs raising end of
Every alternative is a GE loser that would make the Dementia tax look popular IMO
And as most people are reluctant to pay more tax and especially the equivalent of 5p on the basic rate it will be starved of funds and collapse.
And you do know that many of those spending more GDP do have additional revenue streams into their service.
5p on Basic Rate??
Corporation tax has been cut by how much over the last 7 years??
And why has corporation tax income increased year on year as a result of corporation tax reductions
Tax and spend redistributes wealth but doesn't alter the fundamental equation: we are consuming wealth faster than we create it. Every society in human history that has done that has failed. So you can argue about the NHS, corporation tax, etc: it doesn't matter unless we grow the economy to increase income and stop just talking about moving the deckchairs..
On the Welsh NHS, my 95 year old grandmother fell outside her house and broke her arm a couple of weeks ago. Fortunately she was looked after by neighbours but it took an hour and a half for the ambulance to turn up. At least when she got that she was seen in about 30 mins.
Changes to the way the NHS is funded would be enough to scare me into voting for Corbyn’s Labour Party tbqh.
Perhaps another way to think about this is, suppose the Govt could raise an extra 20 billion in tax receipts.
If it was raised solely by income tax, it would a substantial rise of say 5p in the pound. But I am not worrying exactly how it was raised.
It is a big, extra sum of money. So, how would you spend it?
My answer is that, for any increased tax receipts, the young should have absolutely first claim. I would use at least some of the money (say 10 billion) to halve university tuition fees, or to build cheap, social housing for young first time-buyers, or to reduce tuition fee debts.
Unfortunately, if you want to maintain the NHS as it is, then you will have to use all the 20 billion for the NHS (at least according to the letter the NHS bosses sent to Jeremy Hunt). There will be nothing left for the young.
Well of course living in Cowbridge you have tbe conservative secretary of state for Wales as your MP which will account for the excellent health care you are experiencing.
But to be serious ITV Wales do source the information properly and it is a constant attack on health and education which some of us have had bitter personal experience off
Cairns tried to buy the house next door to me, when he became MP for the Vale. He didn't! A few abandoned cars, vans and white-goods on the paddock for the day of his viewing did the trick!
To be fair Cairns is an excellent constituency MP. He did make a horlicks of his maiden speech, and he does come across as a bit 'twp' but he is growing into the role. In a recent head to head on TV with Steve Kinnock, Cairns edged it!
I think we need to agree we have had good and bad, even dreadful experiences (I do not want to talk of my sisters last hours ) but the attacks on Wales labour over health and education are constant and media based.
I think the shame is that the national news virtually always attacks the English NHS and the government when as a national broadcaster they should be comparing all the devolved administrations figures to show that this crisis is beyond party politics and needs UK wide consensus.
I do think Hunt is committed to resolving the problem and his determination to stay in health and demand social care is taken under his brief, together with the green paper, shows a remarkable determination to succeed.
Indeed I did hear that Hunt said some time ago health will be his last job in governmrnt
Comments
There has been a ten day media blitz on the collapsing NHS, a botched reshuffle, and yet the parties are level.
The good thing is that this will force the issue to the top of the agenda and hopefully a cross party consensus can take shape and a wider discussion on how public services are funded.
I do not believe Corbyn holds all the cards on this and even Angela Raynor commented that McDonnell's economic policies are s..t or bust.
Nothing is predictable anymore
One gets the impression that they are opportunistically using the politics of the annual flu season for hold out the begging bowl.
(This is not a comment on whether they have the right amount of money, simply that the media takes the demands of people with a vested interest at face value)
What actually needs to happen is a Royal Commission with 2 parts:
(1) first what do we want to achieve from tax funded healthcare (eg free at point of demand vs co-pay, should everyone get exactly the same vs ability to supplement, etc)
(2) what is the best way to deliver the desired healthcare (eg DGH vs centres of excellence, how do we integrate social and healthcare, how do we triage a&e more effectively, what is the role of primary care)
If you can agree 1&2 (at least broadly) then you can let the parties debate the political - how do you fund it, what is the right level of co-pay etc - but hopefully you can get the delivery mechanism optimised so we get the best output for a given level of resource allocation
I agree with you on your post. The NHS and social care needs big picture non politicised stuff on funding and capacity. But today it is not acceptable how things are, and this was something that everyone saw coming.
I've just come back from nearly a fortnight dealing with social care and elderly health issues in Italy...and this is with someone who was accessing timely services. My heart goes out to those particularly elderly people an d their families who are left waiting and helpless at the most vulnerable time in their lives.
If labour had been progressive and not blatantly stupid they would have accepted constraints on pensions and the WFA
This is the reason I think Corbyn and McDonnell will struggle as we are now facing a national debate and how to pay for our public services without wholly unacceptable tax rises
More seriously, the Tories should be shredding Labour on this stuff week after week. That is what Osborne did to Miliband and Balls from day one in government, and Miliband's stuff was far less bonkers.
Anything Eddie proposed, Osborne and fellow travelers got out straight away and started to make it clear how much more that would cost and no such thing as a free lunch. They planted the seed that Labour meant higher taxes for everybody, no matter what Team Ed were wittering about.
On healthcare we could also require those who can afford it to take out private health insurance as Australia does
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42682238
Indeed the lib dems have been calling for cross party consensus for a long time
http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/government/qatar-s-shaikh-abdullah-left-uae-at-own-request-source-1.2156950
The NHS across the UK is at breaking point because it has been successful in keeping people alive, and further reliant on the service, that otherwise would not have survived.
Free at the point of delivery is unaffordable! Unhealthy lifestyle choices should also be further financially penalised.
"The Leader of the Opposition, Jeremy Corbyn, asked questions on NHS winter preparedness, A&E waiting times, cancellation of operations, social care, NHS funding and the role of private companies in the NHS."
What we really need to consider is whether all the extra billions used to keep sick oldies lingering for a few months longer with dreadful quality of life might be better spent at other times in people's lives.
The idea that point 1) is not political, that a royal commission can determine this, that Labour and the Conservatives could agree... I think it’s nonsense.
It is a fundamentally political question of what is the role of the state.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-42652425
And, I agree with Nicola Sturgeon.
Also, it is worth pointing out the Labour Record in Education in Wales. Just as bad as the record in Health.
Bottom. Bottom of the 4 nations that comprise the UK in any objective measure such as international tables.
Still, people who live in Oxfordshire always think they know best about Wales.
I have no time for Corbyn and his idea of throwing money at the NHS exemplifies how useless he is.
The NHS can't cope because of how successful it has been in lengthening lives in the UK.
An Independent Royal Commission and/or a cross party consensus is the way forward but of course terrifies labour as it would prevent their continued weaponising of it.
The future ballooning costs of the NHS and Social care will need alternative means of funding otherwise in time it will swallow 100% of out taxes The Providers are wanting in excess of 150 billion by 2020 and that equates to an extra 5% in tax and that just for the NHS.
If the public sector pay freeze is to be lifted, student fees reappraised, increases in police and prison staff etc are added then it is not sustainable from tax
Just out of interest, what ought to happen if it turns out that the best thing, for taxpayers, is something other than a purely taxpayer funded NHS? Or is such a thing conceptually impossible?
It is not Big G & YBarddCwsc making all this up. Here is the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38670356
If the average is 226 days for hip replacements in Wales, then the statistics will be particularly grim in the worst-of-all-performing Betsi Cadwaladr.
I would like to see a proper comparison between education & health in Wales and in roughly equivalent districts in Scotland (say Central Belt) and England (North East).
I think it would be enlightening to see how those regions are performing in health & education under the different regimes.
I have little hope that Wales will be anything other than bottom.
We might as well set up a royal commission to determine the level of income tax.
Health is political folks.
Our weekly paper attacks our local service on a regular basis. You may have had good service but that is not true of most patients in Wales
All you mean by that is that you no longer want to pay for other people's healthcare, you only want to pay for your own, and you believe that you will be better off as a result. Most people wouldn't be, of course.
Rubbish and a typical leftie nonsense story.
An Independent Royal Commission and/or a cross party consensus is the way forward but of course terrifies labour as it would prevent their continued weaponising of it.
The future ballooning costs of the NHS and Social care will need alternative means of funding otherwise in time it will swallow 100% of out taxes The Providers are wanting in excess of 150 billion by 2020 and that equates to an extra 5% in tax and that just for the NHS.
If the public sector pay freeze is to be lifted, student fees reappraised, increases in police and prison staff etc are added then it is not sustainable from tax
Where is the magic money that can't be raised through taxation?
All you mean by that is that you no longer want to pay for other people's healthcare, you only want to pay for your own, and you believe that you will be better off as a result. Most people wouldn't be, of course.
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Pardon - My wife is 78 and I am 74 and it is more than possible we will have to pay, as things stand, thousands of pounds for our care out of our pension and savings.
I believe in everyone paying their fair share of tax to support public services but those public services have to be accountable for value for money and efficiency.
There is no magic money tree
And with respect do you live in Wales
They should be things you listen to, assess and act accordingly.
If you adopt a no change possible stance then the NHS will certainly stutter to a shambolic end.
Needs and demands have changed, therefore the existing settlement may be inappropriate.
Corbyn does not have an answer. The answer will come from some free-marketeer, like, dare-I-say Jeremy Hunt.
So why not
You do know 8% of GDP is less than almost everywhere else.
Tax needs raising end of
Every alternative is a GE loser that would make the Dementia tax look popular IMO
Near Cowbridge.
And you do know that many of those spending more GDP do have additional revenue streams into their service.
Politicians just said that was what they were for.
Hypothecation is profoundly undemocratic - it prevents politicians from determining resource allocation - as well as being fiscally damaging
Crazy
I think there needs to be greater personal responsibility.
I think there needs to be reforms in the way it works, in efficiencies, in Drs contracts, the way the public interacts with it and the exponential rise in use of A&E needs to be reversed.
I can't accept the NHS is perfect and needs no change in funding or systems. The works changes, the NHS needs to change too.
Corporation tax has been cut by how much over the last 7 years??
If NI was being spent on more than just healthcare and pensions etc you may have a point but you well and truly don't. If we were to return to a hypothecated system that we never had then you would have to slash pension or healthcare spending dramatically.
Although corporation tax rates have gone down, the corporation tax revenues have gone up.
How much would you be prepared to cut healthcare or other spending to pay for the reduced revenues that raising corporation tax would cause?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/284319/united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts-corporation-tax/
Are you saying ITV Wales are making things up.
And with respect do you live in Wales
No, although they might have a reporter with an agenda.
Near Cowbridge.
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Well of course living in Cowbridge you have tbe conservative secretary of state for Wales as your MP which will account for the excellent health care you are experiencing.
But to be serious ITV Wales do source the information properly and it is a constant attack on health and education which some of us have had bitter personal experience off
You may not believe in either but corporation tax revenues are smashing all records and my two young daughters got what they asked Santa for under the tree on 25th December. Ignore both at your peril!
I must have confused you with another poster, as I thought you lived in Oxfordshire.
Onshore Corporation Tax 2016/17 £49.334 billion
Listen to the left and we've had a lost decade and corporation tax cuts but the figures speak for themselves.
To be fair Cairns is an excellent constituency MP. He did make a horlicks of his maiden speech, and he does come across as a bit 'twp' but he is growing into the role. In a recent head to head on TV with Steve Kinnock, Cairns edged it!
Not to mention the multiplier effect that lower corporation tax rates generates more revenues for the exchequer through other means if companies expand.
Business rates, employers NI, NI on wages, Income Tax, Dividend Taxes, VAT and more all apply to businesses on top of the extra £11 billion in corporation tax revenues that the Treasury gets today than it did a decade ago.
If it was raised solely by income tax, it would a substantial rise of say 5p in the pound. But I am not worrying exactly how it was raised.
It is a big, extra sum of money. So, how would you spend it?
My answer is that, for any increased tax receipts, the young should have absolutely first claim. I would use at least some of the money (say 10 billion) to halve university tuition fees, or to build cheap, social housing for young first time-buyers, or to reduce tuition fee debts.
Unfortunately, if you want to maintain the NHS as it is, then you will have to use all the 20 billion for the NHS (at least according to the letter the NHS bosses sent to Jeremy Hunt). There will be nothing left for the young.
I think the shame is that the national news virtually always attacks the English NHS and the government when as a national broadcaster they should be comparing all the devolved administrations figures to show that this crisis is beyond party politics and needs UK wide consensus.
I do think Hunt is committed to resolving the problem and his determination to stay in health and demand social care is taken under his brief, together with the green paper, shows a remarkable determination to succeed.
Indeed I did hear that Hunt said some time ago health will be his last job in governmrnt