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  • TGOHF said:

    "Other LAB figures like Chuka Umunna and Keir Starmer have been articulating Brexit positions which, I’d suggest, are much more palatable to the vast bulk of the Labour movement than Crobyn/Mc"

    Why don't they mount a leadership challenge then ??

    +1
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,963
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Elliot said:

    JohnO said:

    Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.

    Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.
    Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.
    Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".
    Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.
    As a direct descendant of the most famous Frenchman ever (Napoleon) and one of the most famous French Jewish women ever (Rachel) I am prepared, in a spirit of British self-sacrifice, akin to Scott going outside for some time, to be loaned to the French. Despite this quasi-@SeanT style boasting, I only require a modest apartment - with roof garden and exquisite courtyard garden in the centre of Paris where I can in my immaculate French (courtesy of my French grandmother) do my bit for Anglo-French relations. I could have a salon and invite people to discourse on matters of the day, a sort of 19th century version of PB, only with madeleines, proper coffee and fine wines.

    I await the call...........
    Oates went outside, not Scott, and did so pretty much under direct instruction from Scott that anyone who couldn't go on was to commit suicide for the sake of the others; he had that morning got Wilson to explain to the entire party the procedure for overdosing on morphine. Oates' mother refused to show up at the Palace to collect a medal on his behalf, and pressed unsuccessfully for an enquiry into Scott's conduct of the expedition. It cannot be overstated what an incompetent, murderous horp* Scott was.

    * Substring of "Scunthorpe". Other substrings are available.
    Scott was no Shackleton....
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    HYUFD said:

    If the thread header is true, conservatives should be worried. This is not going to be a big issue in 2022

    Corbyn is and whether it is or not depends what Brexit UK looks like in 2022
    That's true. If it goes really badly, both parties may be blamed, but Labour would be more vulnerable to their base losing enthusiasm. There's a lot of "if"s in that scenario though. Depends on Brexit going badly, everyone not getting bored of talking about how badly it went for three years, Labour not managing to succeed with a "critic" stance in which they go into a lot of detail on what the Tories did wrong without much detail on what they'd have done differently, no other issue coming up to re-stoke the base's enthusiasm...

    Bottom line is if Tory hopes depend on ire from the Labor base about their Brexit stance, that's a really flimsy thing to rely on
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Q. Why did the REMAINERs cross the road?

    A. Because they were threatened with Article 7 if they didn't

    (I thank you!)


    Fixed that for you
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    It'll be interesting to see if Alexis gives any interviews as a Man Utd player. I don't think I've ever heard the guy speak.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    IanB2 said:

    MJW said:

    MaxPB said:

    So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?

    The instructions of the people, not the executive. Those 11 MPs are defying the people, having been given a specific instruction.

    I'm just calling it what it is, I'm not issuing any threats or calling for them to be murdered. They are traitors to our party and the country. If you think that's comparable to an MP getting murdered by a crazy person then that's on you.

    Your attempt to silence any dissent on their betrayal won't work. You can say what you like, it doesn't change the fact that they voted against our party and against the people. Call me names or whatever you want. It doesn't bother me.

    You are calling Dominic Grieve, Ken Clarke. Anna Soubry and others traitors. That’s crazy talk. Sorry. It just is. As someone who is profoundly anti-Tory, I am all for you shouting out your claims of treachery from the rooftops - it will help to ensure the Tories do not get a majority at the next election.

    It's also nonsense. Of the Tory rebels only Ken Clarke has really said he's out and out opposed to Brexit. The others have strongly disagreed with the form of Brexit the PM is currently advocating (such as it is) because they believe it to be disastrous. If, say May had come out and announced after becoming leader that she wanted to leave the EU but opt to stay in the single market and customs union then another set of Tory MPs would be rebelling for their preferred form of Brexit. We don't want MPs to just rubberstamp contentious policies but use their judgement.

    But then this problem goes back to the in-out referendum. It's an oblique instruction requiring, often contradictory interpretations none of which commands obvious clear support in the country. Which is why everything's a bit of a mess. There is no settled will of the people - as there's not an agreed way to faithfully carry out the instruction.
    Cameron, had he not been so arrogant as to think he could stroll the referendum, should have agreed to it on condition that the leave campaigners first agree amongst themselves a prospectus setting out, in outline, what Brexit would look like.
    Absolutely. I think this was the absolute biggest mistake of the referendum. So much of the poison that has come subsequently is due to the vagueness in what we actually voted for, which of course everyone is exploiting for their own position (including the position that we should have a second referendum).
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited January 2018
    I don't understand why people look at polls outside of the election with confidence.

    The parties being neck and neck could, based on the last few elections, lead to almost any outcome.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Elliot said:

    JohnO said:

    Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.

    Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.
    Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.
    Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".
    Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.
    As a direct descendant of the most famous Frenchman ever (Napoleon) and one of the most famous French Jewish women ever (Rachel) I am prepared, in a spirit of British self-sacrifice, akin to Scott going outside for some time, to be loaned to the French. Despite this quasi-@SeanT style boasting, I only require a modest apartment - with roof garden and exquisite courtyard garden in the centre of Paris where I can in my immaculate French (courtesy of my French grandmother) do my bit for Anglo-French relations. I could have a salon and invite people to discourse on matters of the day, a sort of 19th century version of PB, only with madeleines, proper coffee and fine wines.

    I await the call...........
    Oates went outside, not Scott, and did so pretty much under direct instruction from Scott that anyone who couldn't go on was to commit suicide for the sake of the others; he had that morning got Wilson to explain to the entire party the procedure for overdosing on morphine. Oates' mother refused to show up at the Palace to collect a medal on his behalf, and pressed unsuccessfully for an enquiry into Scott's conduct of the expedition. It cannot be overstated what an incompetent, murderous horp* Scott was.

    * Substring of "Scunthorpe". Other substrings are available.
    Scott was no Shackleton....
    For our retirement my wife and I went to Antartica and then cruised 'in the footsteps of Shackleton' from Elephant Island to South Georgia in virtually hurricane seas all the way. Shackleton's escape by rowing boat to South Georgia is one of the most heroic things done by man
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.

    What are EU values?
    My take on this is as follows (this list is non-exhaustive):

    1) A belief that democracy does not stop at national borders and that if we are to exercise it meaningfully we need to do so together with others, that close co-operation in as structured a way as possible is far preferable to isolationism; as the world becomes ever more connected, ever more mass is required to take on the forces of globalisation on equal terms
    2) A belief in the four freedoms of the single market, that they have been an unequivocal good thing for Britain and for the EU both in their economic effect and in the shift in mindset that they have produced in the EU's citizens, and that the world is a better place if we tear down barriers instead of building them up
    3) A belief that the more we talk with each other and share ideas between nations, the better the solutions that will be achieved and the better understanding each will have of the others' positions.

    I'm sure others would have different definitions. But a good starting point is to take the values of Nigel Farage - the hatred, the narrow-minded nationalism, the willingness to race-bait, the pettiness and the insularity - and look for the opposite.

    The problem with the EU is not its values but how it lives up to them.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,547

    Absolutely. I think this was the absolute biggest mistake of the referendum. So much of the poison that has come subsequently is due to the vagueness in what we actually voted for, which of course everyone is exploiting for their own position (including the position that we should have a second referendum).

    There was no way they could do that. Imagine if Cameron and remain had come up with a 'leave' proposition for Brexit that is similar to the one May is going for. Farage and the other leavers would immediately have been whipping up anger over it, calling it a betrayal etc (in fact, as he is now, except with the added incentive of it being before the referendum).

    It wasn't remain's job to do leave's work for them. Any attempt to do so would just have given the leave campaigns massive amounts of ammunition and sown yet more discord.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,095
    edited January 2018

    Absolutely. I think this was the absolute biggest mistake of the referendum. So much of the poison that has come subsequently is due to the vagueness in what we actually voted for, which of course everyone is exploiting for their own position (including the position that we should have a second referendum).

    There was no way they could do that. Imagine if Cameron and remain had come up with a 'leave' proposition for Brexit that is similar to the one May is going for. Farage and the other leavers would immediately have been whipping up anger over it, calling it a betrayal etc (in fact, as he is now, except with the added incentive of it being before the referendum).

    It wasn't remain's job to do leave's work for them. Any attempt to do so would just have given the leave campaigns massive amounts of ammunition and sown yet more discord.
    No, my point is that the leave campaign should have been required to work up its proposition, not that Cammo should have done it for them. Maybe the internal tensions within the leave side would have done the job for him, or, more likely, the more specific the proposition the less support it would have attracted. Either way, Cameron would have been home and dry.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,095
    So they have at least learned something from their relationship with Putin...
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    Deckchairs, Titanic, etc.

  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Sky announced Sanchez swop deal is complete

    I fear Rashford's game time is about to become somewhat limited. Not great for England.
    Hope not but what a deal by Mourinho.

    No transfer fee and Mkhitaryan wages of approx £150,000 contributes to Sanchez £450,000

    Added to that Mourinho has proved he can buy the top players in the World (maybe not Messi)

    Its a fantastic swop for United, no doubt about it.
    With my allegiances, I fear it's good for both Man U and the other team.

    Having said that if Man City were so concerned the Sanchez wages were too disruptive for their team spirit, surely Pogba will be having a word shortly...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Absolutely. I think this was the absolute biggest mistake of the referendum. So much of the poison that has come subsequently is due to the vagueness in what we actually voted for, which of course everyone is exploiting for their own position (including the position that we should have a second referendum).

    There was no way they could do that. Imagine if Cameron and remain had come up with a 'leave' proposition for Brexit that is similar to the one May is going for. Farage and the other leavers would immediately have been whipping up anger over it, calling it a betrayal etc (in fact, as he is now, except with the added incentive of it being before the referendum).

    It wasn't remain's job to do leave's work for them. Any attempt to do so would just have given the leave campaigns massive amounts of ammunition and sown yet more discord.
    He wasn't helped by the EU telling him to p*ss off re negotiations - they wanted him to lose or they are even more out of touch with the Uk population than he was.

    In hindsight, Cameron should have come back from Brussels and had a massive hissy fit at the crap deal he was offered until he got more concessions.

    It might have just about saved his bacon.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    For our retirement my wife and I went to Antartica and then cruised 'in the footsteps of Shackleton' from Elephant Island to South Georgia in virtually hurricane seas all the way. Shackleton's escape by rowing boat to South Georgia is one of the most heroic things done by man

    Quite agree. The stupid thing is the actual boat is on display at Dulwich College and I've never been to see it. I have seen Amundsen's Fram in Oslo, though.

    I envy you the trip. I am going sailing in Svalbard this summer as an introduction to high latitudes.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    TGOHF said:

    Absolutely. I think this was the absolute biggest mistake of the referendum. So much of the poison that has come subsequently is due to the vagueness in what we actually voted for, which of course everyone is exploiting for their own position (including the position that we should have a second referendum).

    There was no way they could do that. Imagine if Cameron and remain had come up with a 'leave' proposition for Brexit that is similar to the one May is going for. Farage and the other leavers would immediately have been whipping up anger over it, calling it a betrayal etc (in fact, as he is now, except with the added incentive of it being before the referendum).

    It wasn't remain's job to do leave's work for them. Any attempt to do so would just have given the leave campaigns massive amounts of ammunition and sown yet more discord.
    He wasn't helped by the EU telling him to p*ss off re negotiations - they wanted him to lose or they are even more out of touch with the Uk population than he was.

    In hindsight, Cameron should have come back from Brussels and had a massive hissy fit at the crap deal he was offered until he got more concessions.

    It might have just about saved his bacon.
    It's interesting that the Leavers have gone back to interrogating why they won, and regretting that Remain didn't do enough to scrape over the line. The full horror of their victory is now becoming apparent.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    TGOHF said:

    Absolutely. I think this was the absolute biggest mistake of the referendum. So much of the poison that has come subsequently is due to the vagueness in what we actually voted for, which of course everyone is exploiting for their own position (including the position that we should have a second referendum).

    There was no way they could do that. Imagine if Cameron and remain had come up with a 'leave' proposition for Brexit that is similar to the one May is going for. Farage and the other leavers would immediately have been whipping up anger over it, calling it a betrayal etc (in fact, as he is now, except with the added incentive of it being before the referendum).

    It wasn't remain's job to do leave's work for them. Any attempt to do so would just have given the leave campaigns massive amounts of ammunition and sown yet more discord.
    He wasn't helped by the EU telling him to p*ss off re negotiations - they wanted him to lose or they are even more out of touch with the Uk population than he was.

    In hindsight, Cameron should have come back from Brussels and had a massive hissy fit at the crap deal he was offered until he got more concessions.

    It might have just about saved his bacon.
    It's interesting that the Leavers have gone back to interrogating why they won, and regretting that Remain didn't do enough to scrape over the line. The full horror of their victory is now becoming apparent.
    lol. William, you are such a wag.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Sean_F said:

    Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.

    What are EU values?
    My take on this is as follows (this list is non-exhaustive):

    1) A belief that democracy does not stop at national borders and that if we are to exercise it meaningfully we need to do so together with others, that close co-operation in as structured a way as possible is far preferable to isolationism; as the world becomes ever more connected, ever more mass is required to take on the forces of globalisation on equal terms
    2) A belief in the four freedoms of the single market, that they have been an unequivocal good thing for Britain and for the EU both in their economic effect and in the shift in mindset that they have produced in the EU's citizens, and that the world is a better place if we tear down barriers instead of building them up
    3) A belief that the more we talk with each other and share ideas between nations, the better the solutions that will be achieved and the better understanding each will have of the others' positions.

    I'm sure others would have different definitions. But a good starting point is to take the values of Nigel Farage - the hatred, the narrow-minded nationalism, the willingness to race-bait, the pettiness and the insularity - and look for the opposite.

    The problem with the EU is not its values but how it lives up to them.
    I'd strongly agree with 3), not much with 1) and I've grown increasingly sceptical about 2).
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Students of EU values should look at the Belgium/Sudan refugee scandal. Well over a century since they came up with the wheeze of cutting the hands off Africans for not making quota on rubber collecting, and still at the top of their game, bless 'em.

    But I am sure it's a bug, not a feature.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,547
    IanB2 said:

    Absolutely. I think this was the absolute biggest mistake of the referendum. So much of the poison that has come subsequently is due to the vagueness in what we actually voted for, which of course everyone is exploiting for their own position (including the position that we should have a second referendum).

    There was no way they could do that. Imagine if Cameron and remain had come up with a 'leave' proposition for Brexit that is similar to the one May is going for. Farage and the other leavers would immediately have been whipping up anger over it, calling it a betrayal etc (in fact, as he is now, except with the added incentive of it being before the referendum).

    It wasn't remain's job to do leave's work for them. Any attempt to do so would just have given the leave campaigns massive amounts of ammunition and sown yet more discord.
    No, my point is that the leave campaign should have been required to work up its proposition, not that Cammo should have done it for them. Maybe the internal tensions within the leave side would have done the job for him, or, more likely, the more specific the proposition the less support it would have attracted. Either way, Cameron would have been home and dry.
    There was no way leave were going to agree to do that, as they had to achieve as broad a church as possible. In order to win, leave had to get (as an example) the ex-BNP types and the moderate Labour leavers under the same roof. The only way to do that was to promise different things to the congregations, even if those things were fundamentally incompatible.

    Trying to force them ('should have been required to') would just have kicked up an even bigger sh*t-storm to lave's advantage - and in the end there were two well-funded leave campaigns catering for the different congregations.

    The internal contradictions between the two leave campaigns were obvious, and yet those contradictions did not lead to a remain win.

    Too many people look at the referendum and say 'Cameron / remain should have done this', without considering how 'the enemy' (i.e. UKIP/leave) would have reacted and used it to their advantage. As always with alternate histories, it is important to try to understand how the enemy would have responded to the changed situation.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD Posts: 37,584

    I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.

    HYUFD said:
    Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.

    -----------

    HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!

    White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt
    I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??
    There is a slim chance he would have voted for Corbyn though he probably voted for UKIP rather than Ed Miliband
    And the house. Would you like to live next to a house covered in England flags?
    When the football World Cup is on, yes. As it was when Mrs Bucket sent her famous tweet.
  • Ishmael_Z said:



    For our retirement my wife and I went to Antartica and then cruised 'in the footsteps of Shackleton' from Elephant Island to South Georgia in virtually hurricane seas all the way. Shackleton's escape by rowing boat to South Georgia is one of the most heroic things done by man

    Quite agree. The stupid thing is the actual boat is on display at Dulwich College and I've never been to see it. I have seen Amundsen's Fram in Oslo, though.

    I envy you the trip. I am going sailing in Svalbard this summer as an introduction to high latitudes.
    The trip was on board the modern day ice strenthened Fram and it was just an amazing experience. The beauty of Antartica is awe inspiring and the wild life was majestic. The seas around Antartica were flat calm but otherwise they were rough and it is fortunate my wife and I have never had sea sickness. Indeed my wife's family go back generations as North East Scotland's fishermen. South Georgia was fascinating and of course we came home through the Falkland Islands.

    We went to Svalbard some years ago and it is another fabulous destination. We saw polar bears from the ship's deck and got used to 24/7 daylight. To conclude our Artic explorations we also went to Iceland and Greenland.

    Never has there been a truer expression than 'travel broadens the mind'
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    IanB2 said:

    No, my point is that the leave campaign should have been required to work up its proposition, not that Cammo should have done it for them.

    Leave did have a proposition

    It started with £350m a week for the NHS...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,095

    IanB2 said:

    Absolutely. I think this was the absolute biggest mistake of the referendum. So much of the poison that has come subsequently is due to the vagueness in what we actually voted for, which of course everyone is exploiting for their own position (including the position that we should have a second referendum).

    There was no way they could do that. Imagine if Cameron and remain had come up with a 'leave' proposition for Brexit that is similar to the one May is going for. Farage and the other leavers would immediately have been whipping up anger over it, calling it a betrayal etc (in fact, as he is now, except with the added incentive of it being before the referendum).

    It wasn't remain's job to do leave's work for them. Any attempt to do so would just have given the leave campaigns massive amounts of ammunition and sown yet more discord.
    No, my point is that the leave campaign should have been required to work up its proposition, not that Cammo should have done it for them. Maybe the internal tensions within the leave side would have done the job for him, or, more likely, the more specific the proposition the less support it would have attracted. Either way, Cameron would have been home and dry.
    There was no way leave were going to agree to do that, as they had to achieve as broad a church as possible. In order to win, leave had to get (as an example) the ex-BNP types and the moderate Labour leavers under the same roof. The only way to do that was to promise different things to the congregations, even if those things were fundamentally incompatible.

    Trying to force them ('should have been required to') would just have kicked up an even bigger sh*t-storm to lave's advantage - and in the end there were two well-funded leave campaigns catering for the different congregations.

    The internal contradictions between the two leave campaigns were obvious, and yet those contradictions did not lead to a remain win.

    Too many people look at the referendum and say 'Cameron / remain should have done this', without considering how 'the enemy' (i.e. UKIP/leave) would have reacted and used it to their advantage. As always with alternate histories, it is important to try to understand how the enemy would have responded to the changed situation.
    It is not an unreasonable proposition that a referendum requires a worked up proposal for change.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Elliot said:

    JohnO said:

    Max is neatly illustrating why our host is wrong. No committed Remainer is going to vote for the Conservatives while such unhinged views form part of their mainstream. Labour offer far more promising prospects of some kind of return movement towards EU values.

    Please. Max is emphatically not part of the Conservative mainstream.
    Today Jacob Rees-Mogg announced that Britain should respond to the insult of being loaned the Bayeux Tapestry by revenge-loaning the French the Victory's flag to show "we usually win the battles". Like it or not, swivel-eyed mania is part of the Conservative mainstream.
    Jacob Rees-Mogg would have been a reactionary 100 years ago. But this is clearly what is known as a "joke".
    Jokes were once upon a time supposed to be funny. Perhaps this is wildly hilarious if you have an insular, chauvinistic view of the world. For anyone not completely bats in the belfry, it just sounds nuts.
    As a direct descendant of the most famous Frenchman ever (Napoleon) and one of the most famous French Jewish women ever (Rachel) I am prepared, in a spirit of British self-sacrifice, akin to Scott going outside for some time, to be loaned to the French. Despite this quasi-@SeanT style boasting, I only require a modest apartment - with roof garden and exquisite courtyard garden in the centre of Paris where I can in my immaculate French (courtesy of my French grandmother) do my bit for Anglo-French relations. I could have a salon and invite people to discourse on matters of the day, a sort of 19th century version of PB, only with madeleines, proper coffee and fine wines.

    I await the call...........
    Oates went outside, not Scott, and did so pretty much under direct instruction from Scott that anyone who couldn't go on was to commit suicide for the sake of the others; he had that morning got Wilson to explain to the entire party the procedure for overdosing on morphine. Oates' mother refused to show up at the Palace to collect a medal on his behalf, and pressed unsuccessfully for an enquiry into Scott's conduct of the expedition. It cannot be overstated what an incompetent, murderous horp* Scott was.

    * Substring of "Scunthorpe". Other substrings are available.
    The things you learn on PB. "Reassessing famous heroes". It could be the salon's first topic.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited January 2018
    Scott_P said:

    IanB2 said:

    No, my point is that the leave campaign should have been required to work up its proposition, not that Cammo should have done it for them.

    Leave did have a proposition

    It started with £350m a week for the NHS...
    I am not at all convinced hard remainers like yourself and William are not damaging your cause by your constant repetitive comments and general attitude that leavers are imbecillles or less educated and it only angers moderates in the middle of the argument.

    On a second referendum and these are genuine questions I would be grateful if you would answer

    How will the wording be agreed

    How many questions would be asked

    How can anyone know the EU positions

    1) - stay as now with some gesture to free movement
    2) - lose all our existing benefits
    3) - have to join the euro

    What would be the time frame to get through the HOC and HOL

    What happens with A50

    If you can answer these questions honestly and fairly it would add to the debate enormously
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,963



    For our retirement my wife and I went to Antartica and then cruised 'in the footsteps of Shackleton' from Elephant Island to South Georgia in virtually hurricane seas all the way. Shackleton's escape by rowing boat to South Georgia is one of the most heroic things done by man

    It is an astonishing journey. I have also been fortunate enough to visit South Georgia and pay my respects at the man's grave at Grytviken. Also saw the whaling station at Stromness where he finally had a bath, having landed and climbed over the glacier! (You can't get close now because of the huge amounts of asbestos - which the Royal Marines removed from Grytviken.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,547
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Absolutely. I think this was the absolute biggest mistake of the referendum. So much of the poison that has come subsequently is due to the vagueness in what we actually voted for, which of course everyone is exploiting for their own position (including the position that we should have a second referendum).

    There was no way they could do that. Imagine if Cameron and remain had come up with a 'leave' proposition for Brexit that is similar to the one May is going for. Farage and the other leavers would immediately have been whipping up anger over it, calling it a betrayal etc (in fact, as he is now, except with the added incentive of it being before the referendum).

    It wasn't remain's job to do leave's work for them. Any attempt to do so would just have given the leave campaigns massive amounts of ammunition and sown yet more discord.
    No, my point is that the leave campaign should have been required to work up its proposition, not that Cammo should have done it for them. Maybe the internal tensions within the leave side would have done the job for him, or, more likely, the more specific the proposition the less support it would have attracted. Either way, Cameron would have been home and dry.
    There was no way leave were going to agree to do that, as they had to achieve as broad a church as possible. In order to win, leave had to get (as an example) the ex-BNP types and the moderate Labour leavers under the same roof. The only way to do that was to promise different things to the congregations, even if those things were fundamentally incompatible.

    Trying to force them ('should have been required to') would just have kicked up an even bigger sh*t-storm to lave's advantage - and in the end there were two well-funded leave campaigns catering for the different congregations.

    The internal contradictions between the two leave campaigns were obvious, and yet those contradictions did not lead to a remain win.

    Too many people look at the referendum and say 'Cameron / remain should have done this', without considering how 'the enemy' (i.e. UKIP/leave) would have reacted and used it to their advantage. As always with alternate histories, it is important to try to understand how the enemy would have responded to the changed situation.
    It is not an unreasonable proposition that a referendum requires a worked up proposal for change.
    I do not disagree there - but politics is sadly not about being reasonable. And neither leave campaign were ever in any way reasonable ...
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Absolutely. I think this was the absolute biggest mistake of the referendum. So much of the poison that has come subsequently is due to the vagueness in what we actually voted for, which of course everyone is exploiting for their own position (including the position that we should have a second referendum).

    There was no way they could do that. Imagine if Cameron and remain had come up with a 'leave' proposition for Brexit that is similar to the one May is going for. Farage and the other leavers would immediately have been whipping up anger over it, calling it a betrayal etc (in fact, as he is now, except with the added incentive of it being before the referendum).

    It wasn't remain's job to do leave's work for them. Any attempt to do so would just have given the leave campaigns massive amounts of ammunition and sown yet more discord.
    Right, it would have to be a negotiation, preferably driven by the leavers. I don't think Cameron would have pushed for a version that would have leavers calling traitor, because then what would be the point of the referendum?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    new thread

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