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  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Barnesian said:

    Interesting piece from Ashcroft today.

    "Suspend your disbelief if necessary but let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the outcome of the Brexit talks is universally regarded as a triumph: that in an extraordinary feat of diplomacy Theresa May secures an agreement that simultaneously delights leavers and draws a sigh of grateful relief from worried remainers. To appreciate the kind of thanks she and her party could subsequently expect at the ballot box we should all go and see The Darkest Hour and then study the results of the 1945 election."

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2018/01/conservatives-cant-rely-brexit-win-next-election/

    Yep. The politics of Brexit argue for more support for the so-called JAMs, a regional/indiustrial policy oriented towards the north and the marginalised regions of England, and a foreign/defence policy that recognises our reduced role on the world stage. May realises much of this but is too impotent and unimaginative to get her party to deliver anything meaningful. To historians it may well appear inevitable that left-wing Labour was best positioned to rise to the challenges that post-Brexit Britain is likely to face.
    Yes - Corbyn is today's Attlee. Perhaps out of the ashes of Brexit a transformed fairer happier Britain will emerge.
    If that happens, it will only be as a result of the UK levelling down as we lose our top earners rather than increasing prosperity for all.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    I could do with a spot of Project Fear for a few weeks please, I've got several large US $ customer invoices outstanding.

    Lol, I've just been chatting to a crypto investment group I'm in based in the UK, they are all spitting mad about sterling rebounding.
    Yes, for those of us who earn USD and have mortgages in Sterling it’s not such good news.
    Or for those of us resident in the US whose wives unaccountably decided to use their British credit card to pay for lunch in Manhattan the other day...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Off-topic:

    SpaceX have just test fired their Falcon Heavy rocket.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/01/spacex-has-test-fired-its-falcon-heavy-rocket/

    If/when it flies, it will be by far the heaviest rocket currently in service.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited January 2018

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
  • I will not vote Tory again if they are going to dismantle the NHS, too many people would be adversely affected and public health would seriously deteriorate as would life expectancy...

    France, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Austria, Ireland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway and Portugal all have life expectancies as good as or better than ours, yet have largely or partly privatised healthcare provision, so I'd be interested to see your justification for that bald statement.
    Unfortunately Taxman seems to he one if those for whom the NHS is a religion whose tenets must never be challenged irrespective of the facts.
    No, unlike Tories like you I do use the health service and am aware that some people do not have the resources to buy their own health care. I cannot see how profit making companies can provide health care cheaper.
    Competition in services makes things cheaper and provides innovation.

    Public bodies require Companies to be successful to generate employment and profits with which the public sector derives it's income. Demonising the private sector will only result in a diminished public sector
    I understand all the talk about private companies. However, the NHS has massive economies of scale in procurement. I am not against private companies being involved in health care but I cannot see how an NHS consultant will work privately for instance for less money. I think this is ideologically driven and cannot support it. The people who are promoting this are miles away from reality - the average voter wants good health care, the current system with teething problems delivers that I cannot see privatisation changing this.
    The NHS ranks 10th out of 11 in terms of delivery of clinical outcomes (keeping people alive and making them better) amongst 1st world countries. The current system does not deliver good health care and needs root and branch reform.

    Doesn't seem to agree with this
    http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror
    Also isn't it one of the cheapest?
    Yes it does. Indeed it is the Commonwealth Fund report that is the source of the stats. If you look below I have already posted the link to the latest report - and the one you are linking to shows exactly the same thing. The NHS is great at paperwork but relative to the other health systems studied we are much worse at keeping people alive and making them better.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Off-topic:

    SpaceX have just test fired their Falcon Heavy rocket.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/01/spacex-has-test-fired-its-falcon-heavy-rocket/

    If/when it flies, it will be by far the heaviest rocket currently in service.

    Biggest rocket since Saturn V. Will be one hell of a boom if it doesn’t go quite according to plan.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    John_M said:
    Whats that sound, you say?

    Yep, its williamglenn's federalist bubble bursting.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    JonathanD said:

    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Barnesian said:

    Interesting piece from Ashcroft today.

    "Suspend your disbelief if necessary but let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the outcome of the Brexit talks is universally regarded as a triumph: that in an extraordinary feat of diplomacy Theresa May secures an agreement that simultaneously delights leavers and draws a sigh of grateful relief from worried remainers. To appreciate the kind of thanks she and her party could subsequently expect at the ballot box we should all go and see The Darkest Hour and then study the results of the 1945 election."

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2018/01/conservatives-cant-rely-brexit-win-next-election/

    Yep. The politics of Brexit argue for more support for the so-called JAMs, a regional/indiustrial policy oriented towards the north and the marginalised regions of England, and a foreign/defence policy that recognises our reduced role on the world stage. May realises much of this but is too impotent and unimaginative to get her party to deliver anything meaningful. To historians it may well appear inevitable that left-wing Labour was best positioned to rise to the challenges that post-Brexit Britain is likely to face.
    Yes - Corbyn is today's Attlee. Perhaps out of the ashes of Brexit a transformed fairer happier Britain will emerge.
    If that happens, it will only be as a result of the UK levelling down as we lose our top earners rather than increasing prosperity for all.
    Some top earners are wealth generators and we need them. Some top earners are wealth abstracters and it would be good if they did their purloining elsewhere.

    I suspect many high earning British wealth generators can easily live on half their net earnings and would be reluctant to give up their UK activities, culture, law and security to protect earnings far in excess of their needs. Some high earners who are fixated on pure financials (mainly the extracters) might relocate but most wouldn't.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:
    Whats that sound, you say?

    Yep, its williamglenn's federalist bubble bursting.
    No, it's the sound of desperation as another 'no cherry-picking' statement gets parsed to death and misinterpreted.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:
    Whats that sound, you say?

    Yep, its williamglenn's federalist bubble bursting.
    No, it's the sound of desperation as another 'no cherry-picking' statement gets parsed to death and misinterpreted.
    I just read your hilarious comment about not being possible to leave the customs union.

    You really need to read Tim Shipman's book. It was decided LAST JANUARY.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Barnesian said:

    JonathanD said:

    Barnesian said:

    IanB2 said:

    Barnesian said:

    Interesting piece from Ashcroft today.

    "Suspend your disbelief if necessary but let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the outcome of the Brexit talks is universally regarded as a triumph: that in an extraordinary feat of diplomacy Theresa May secures an agreement that simultaneously delights leavers and draws a sigh of grateful relief from worried remainers. To appreciate the kind of thanks she and her party could subsequently expect at the ballot box we should all go and see The Darkest Hour and then study the results of the 1945 election."

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2018/01/conservatives-cant-rely-brexit-win-next-election/

    Yep. The politics of Brexit argue for more support for the so-called JAMs, a regional/indiustrial policy oriented towards the north and the marginalised regions of England, and a foreign/defence policy that recognises our reduced role on the world stage. May realises much of this but is too impotent and unimaginative to get her party to deliver anything meaningful. To historians it may well appear inevitable that left-wing Labour was best positioned to rise to the challenges that post-Brexit Britain is likely to face.
    Yes - Corbyn is today's Attlee. Perhaps out of the ashes of Brexit a transformed fairer happier Britain will emerge.
    If that happens, it will only be as a result of the UK levelling down as we lose our top earners rather than increasing prosperity for all.
    Some top earners are wealth generators and we need them. Some top earners are wealth abstracters and it would be good if they did their purloining elsewhere.

    I suspect many high earning British wealth generators can easily live on half their net earnings and would be reluctant to give up their UK activities, culture, law and security to protect earnings far in excess of their needs. Some high earners who are fixated on pure financials (mainly the extracters) might relocate but most wouldn't.
    Alternatively we could cut their marginal tax rates while making sure that what is due is paid, and make the UK an attractive place for people to base themselves and their businesses in what is a competitive market.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:
    Whats that sound, you say?

    Yep, its williamglenn's federalist bubble bursting.
    No, it's the sound of desperation as another 'no cherry-picking' statement gets parsed to death and misinterpreted.
    I just read your hilarious comment about not being possible to leave the customs union.

    You really need to read Tim Shipman's book. It was decided LAST JANUARY.
    Oh dear. Do you think ideas that spring from Nick Timothy's head instantly become laws of physics?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:
    Whats that sound, you say?

    Yep, its williamglenn's federalist bubble bursting.
    No, it's the sound of desperation as another 'no cherry-picking' statement gets parsed to death and misinterpreted.
    I just read your hilarious comment about not being possible to leave the customs union.

    You really need to read Tim Shipman's book. It was decided LAST JANUARY.
    Oh dear. Do you think ideas that spring from Nick Timothy's head instantly become laws of physics?
    I don't think being in the customs union is required by the laws of physics. :)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    The odd thing is how Brexit Tories simultaneously appear to appreciate how badly Project Fear backfired for Cammo and Osbo (and almost lost Sindy1) yet remain convinced that the same approach is the way for the Tories to see off the threat from Corbyn,
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited January 2018

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...


    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    Capital controls? Not being able to go on holiday because you can't take money out of the country. That'd be a winner, sure. Just ask JustinShortStraws

    More frequent strikes? Not being able to travel, get an education etc because of stronger powers for unions. Yep, they'll LOVE it.

    Higher taxes? Yep, because no-one wants to buy a house, or get a better job, anyway, right?

    My generation are one of the most capitalist and consumerist that the world has ever seen. The idea that they're into daft 70s Bennism is just farcical.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    RobD said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:
    Whats that sound, you say?

    Yep, its williamglenn's federalist bubble bursting.
    No, it's the sound of desperation as another 'no cherry-picking' statement gets parsed to death and misinterpreted.
    I just read your hilarious comment about not being possible to leave the customs union.

    You really need to read Tim Shipman's book. It was decided LAST JANUARY.
    Oh dear. Do you think ideas that spring from Nick Timothy's head instantly become laws of physics?
    I don't think being in the customs union is required by the laws of physics. :)
    It is, of course, necessary if the williamglenn plan for a triumphant federal europe isn't to be blown out of the water by a nation leaving and making a success of it.

    I find it such a bizarre position to stake out as an impossibility. There might be some advantages to staying in the SM; I don't think so, personally, but it is debatable. Everyone (apart from a few europeandreamers) agrees that leaving the EU and staying in the customs union is just crackers.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    The odd thing is how Brexit Tories simultaneously appear to appreciate how badly Project Fear backfired for Cammo and Osbo (and almost lost Sindy1) yet remain convinced that the same approach is the way for the Tories to see off the threat from Corbyn,
    The way to go after Corbyn among the kids is on housing.

    He may have identified problems with housing in the south of England, but he certainly offers no solutions that will help people in their twenties buy a house more easily - and certainly not if they’re planning to use a bank for mortgage finance. Unless of course the kids are happy to be allocated a shabby Council house they’ll never own.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    The odd thing is how Brexit Tories simultaneously appear to appreciate how badly Project Fear backfired for Cammo and Osbo (and almost lost Sindy1) yet remain convinced that the same approach is the way for the Tories to see off the threat from Corbyn,
    The fear of a Labour managed economy secured, credit where it is due to Dave, the first Tory majority in decades.

    It swung undecideds. And destroyed the LDs....
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    The odd thing is how Brexit Tories simultaneously appear to appreciate how badly Project Fear backfired for Cammo and Osbo (and almost lost Sindy1) yet remain convinced that the same approach is the way for the Tories to see off the threat from Corbyn,
    The way to go after Corbyn among the kids is on housing.

    He may have identified problems with housing in the south of England, but he certainly offers no solutions that will help people in their twenties buy a house more easily - and certainly not if they’re planning to use a bank for mortgage finance. Unless of course the kids are happy to be allocated a shabby Council house they’ll never own.
    Yup.

    I constantly remind Tory parents, who despair of their children's Corbynism, of this.

    Houses make Tories.

    So, Tories must of course ensure that they are making houses.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Mortimer said:

    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    The odd thing is how Brexit Tories simultaneously appear to appreciate how badly Project Fear backfired for Cammo and Osbo (and almost lost Sindy1) yet remain convinced that the same approach is the way for the Tories to see off the threat from Corbyn,
    The fear of a Labour managed economy secured, credit where it is due to Dave, the first Tory majority in decades.

    It swung undecideds. And destroyed the LDs....
    Was it fear of a Labour-managed economy that did it, or fear of a Labour government beholden to the SNP? English nationalism is the common denominator between the 2015 and 2016 results.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Mortimer said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    The odd thing is how Brexit Tories simultaneously appear to appreciate how badly Project Fear backfired for Cammo and Osbo (and almost lost Sindy1) yet remain convinced that the same approach is the way for the Tories to see off the threat from Corbyn,
    The way to go after Corbyn among the kids is on housing.

    He may have identified problems with housing in the south of England, but he certainly offers no solutions that will help people in their twenties buy a house more easily - and certainly not if they’re planning to use a bank for mortgage finance. Unless of course the kids are happy to be allocated a shabby Council house they’ll never own.
    Yup.

    I constantly remind Tory parents, who despair of their children's Corbynism, of this.

    Houses make Tories.

    So, Tories must of course ensure that they are making houses.
    Absolutely.

    We need to do some serious amounts of building in the south, there’s plenty of land around if we look for it. In London we need to be building up.

    There also needs to be a little expectations management, that the kids can’t expect their first property to be in Zone 1, no matter how much that’s where they want to live. This bit is probably more difficult than actually building houses!
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited January 2018
    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...


    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    Capital controls? Not being able to go on holiday because you can't take money out of the country. That'd be a winner, sure. Just ask JustinShortStraws

    More frequent strikes? Not being able to travel, get an education etc because of stronger powers for unions. Yep, they'll LOVE it.

    Higher taxes? Yep, because no-one wants to buy a house, or get a better job, anyway, right?

    My generation are one of the most capitalist and consumerist that the world has ever seen. The idea that they're into daft 70s Bennism is just farcical.
    I can't remember any of these being actual policies. Anymore than I could make a list of potential horror Tory policies that are unlikely and horrible effects from their leadership. Privatising the NHS for example has had a bigger airing in conservative circles than the chancellor commenting about war gaming a run on the pound if Labour came to power. Well higher taxes for those on over 80k but do you really think that is a massive put off for younger voters?

    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?

    Houses is the best idea for Tories but they are rapidly running out of time and the vast majority of young people trust Corbyn/Labour far more than the Tories on the issue without some incredible changes in the next few years housing is going to be something massively in favour of Corbyn come the next election.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    The odd thing is how Brexit Tories simultaneously appear to appreciate how badly Project Fear backfired for Cammo and Osbo (and almost lost Sindy1) yet remain convinced that the same approach is the way for the Tories to see off the threat from Corbyn,
    Project Fear played so badly because so any people WANTED to believe that life in Britain after Brexit will be better. Their hopes were a blank canvas. Cameron and Osborne were just painting in black on that blank canvas. No light and shade from them. Just layer upon layer of thick black paint.

    By contrast, there is a very clear picture from history of what a Corbyn Britain will look like. No blank canvas there.

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...


    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    Capital controls? Not being able to go on holiday because you can't take money out of the country. That'd be a winner, sure. Just ask JustinShortStraws

    More frequent strikes? Not being able to travel, get an education etc because of stronger powers for unions. Yep, they'll LOVE it.

    Higher taxes? Yep, because no-one wants to buy a house, or get a better job, anyway, right?

    My generation are one of the most capitalist and consumerist that the world has ever seen. The idea that they're into daft 70s Bennism is just farcical.
    I can't remember any of these being actual policies. Anymore than I could make a list of potential horror Tory policies that are unlikely and horrible effects from their leadership. Privatising the NHS for example has had a bigger airing in conservative circles than the chancellor commenting about war gaming a run on the pound if Labour came to power. Well higher taxes for those on over 80k but do you really think that is a massive put off for younger voters?

    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Off-topic:

    In tech news, the EU has fined Qualcomm $1.2 billion over a deal they did with Apple

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/24/business/eu-qualcomm-fine-antitrust.html
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    Capital controls? Not being able to go on holiday because you can't take money out of the country. That'd be a winner, sure. Just ask JustinShortStraws

    More frequent strikes? Not being able to travel, get an education etc because of stronger powers for unions. Yep, they'll LOVE it.

    Higher taxes? Yep, because no-one wants to buy a house, or get a better job, anyway, right?

    My generation are one of the most capitalist and consumerist that the world has ever seen. The idea that they're into daft 70s Bennism is just farcical.
    I can't remember any of these being actual policies. Anymore than I could make a list of potential horror Tory policies that are unlikely and horrible effects from their leadership. Privatising the NHS for example has had a bigger airing in conservative circles than the chancellor commenting about war gaming a run on the pound if Labour came to power. Well higher taxes for those on over 80k but do you really think that is a massive put off for younger voters?

    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    Capital controls? Not being able to go on holiday because you can't take money out of the country. That'd be a winner, sure. Just ask JustinShortStraws

    More frequent strikes? Not being able to travel, get an education etc because of stronger powers for unions. Yep, they'll LOVE it.

    Higher taxes? Yep, because no-one wants to buy a house, or get a better job, anyway, right?

    My generation are one of the most capitalist and consumerist that the world has ever seen. The idea that they're into daft 70s Bennism is just farcical.
    ...

    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    ZHC are a tiny minority of job contracts, and, whats more, the majority of those who have them like them. They give flexibility both ways, and of course, they make employment more likely.

    Of course my generation want to own houses. Corbyn won't help that; crashing the economy will make it harder to get a mortgage.

    A generation social and caring in outlook, sure, but entirely aspirational and consumerist, too.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    .
    I can't remember any of these being actual policies. Anymore than I could make a list of potential horror Tory policies that are unlikely and horrible effects from their leadership. Privatising the NHS for example has had a bigger airing in conservative circles than the chancellor commenting about war gaming a run on the pound if Labour came to power. Well higher taxes for those on over 80k but do you really think that is a massive put off for younger voters?

    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    Capital controls? Not being able to go on holiday because you can't take money out of the country. That'd be a winner, sure. Just ask JustinShortStraws

    More frequent strikes? Not being able to travel, get an education etc because of stronger powers for unions. Yep, they'll LOVE it.

    Higher taxes? Yep, because no-one wants to buy a house, or get a better job, anyway, right?

    My generation are one of the most capitalist and consumerist that the world has ever seen. The idea that they're into daft 70s Bennism is just farcical.
    ...

    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    ZHC are a tiny minority of job contracts, and, whats more, the majority of those who have them like them. They give flexibility both ways, and of course, they make employment more likely.

    Of course my generation want to own houses. Corbyn won't help that; crashing the economy will make it harder to get a mortgage.

    A generation social and caring in outlook, sure, but entirely aspirational and consumerist, too.
    https://twitter.com/AEI/status/937380169375010816
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    Capital controls? Not being able to go on holiday because you can't take money out of the country. That'd be a winner, sure. Just ask JustinShortStraws

    More frequent strikes? Not being able to travel, get an education etc because of stronger powers for unions. Yep, they'll LOVE it.

    Higher taxes? Yep, because no-one wants to buy a house, or get a better job, anyway, right?

    My generation are one of the most capitalist and consumerist that the world has ever seen. The idea that they're into daft 70s Bennism is just farcical.
    ...

    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    ZHC are a tiny minority of job contracts, and, whats more, the majority of those who have them like them. They give flexibility both ways, and of course, they make employment more likely.

    Of course my generation want to own houses. Corbyn won't help that; crashing the economy will make it harder to get a mortgage.

    A generation social and caring in outlook, sure, but entirely aspirational and consumerist, too.
    https://twitter.com/AEI/status/937380169375010816
    Eminently quotable.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741
    Mortimer said:


    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.

    How nice for you to live in your own little self-affirming right-wing echo chamber.

    As for "my generation", didn't they overwhelmingly back Corbyn and Labour in June ? You might not like that, accept it or believe it but not everyone thinks the current Government is the greatest there has ever been.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741
    edited January 2018
    Sandpit said:

    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.

    The problem will only be if they prefer that disaster over the current disaster.

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited January 2018
    stodge said:

    Mortimer said:


    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.

    How nice for you to live in your own little self-affirming right-wing echo chamber.

    As for "my generation", didn't they overwhelmingly back Corbyn and Labour in June ? You might not like that, accept it or believe it but not everyone thinks the current Government is the greatest there has ever been.
    I'm keenly aware that much of my generation voted Labour. Corbyn, I'm not so sure. Corbynism, I'm positive they're fundamentally in conflict with - if only the logical conclusions of his positions were widely understood. Of course they aren't, through lack of direct experience.

    Most of my friends are not Tory voters.

    But they're frequently more concerned about home ownership, having enough money to have children, and often more focused on luxuries than I am - and I sell luxury goods for a living.

    They're capitalist, and consumerist. They need some help to convince them of the reality; that voting Tory will do far more for them than voting Corbz. Building a shed load of houses will do wonders for that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Mortimer said:

    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    The odd thing is how Brexit Tories simultaneously appear to appreciate how badly Project Fear backfired for Cammo and Osbo (and almost lost Sindy1) yet remain convinced that the same approach is the way for the Tories to see off the threat from Corbyn,
    The fear of a Labour managed economy secured, credit where it is due to Dave, the first Tory majority in decades.

    It swung undecideds. And destroyed the LDs....
    Was it fear of a Labour-managed economy that did it, or fear of a Labour government beholden to the SNP? English nationalism is the common denominator between the 2015 and 2016 results.
    The Tories also made gains in Wales in 2015 and Wales, like England, voted Leave in 2016
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784
    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    .


    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.
    That is a very 1970s vision of the results of Corbynism. I'm not saying you are totally off the mark, but I'd expect considerable and, perhaps, surprising variations along any such theme.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    The odd thing is how Brexit Tories simultaneously appear to appreciate how badly Project Fear backfired for Cammo and Osbo (and almost lost Sindy1) yet remain convinced that the same approach is the way for the Tories to see off the threat from Corbyn,
    The fear of a Labour managed economy secured, credit where it is due to Dave, the first Tory majority in decades.

    It swung undecideds. And destroyed the LDs....
    Was it fear of a Labour-managed economy that did it, or fear of a Labour government beholden to the SNP? English nationalism is the common denominator between the 2015 and 2016 results.
    The Tories also made gains in Wales in 2015 and Wales, like England, voted Leave in 2016
    Perhaps Wales belongs to England, politically speaking.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Pro_Rata said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    .


    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.
    That is a very 1970s vision of the results of Corbynism. I'm not saying you are totally off the mark, but I'd expect considerable and, perhaps, surprising variations along any such theme.
    Like the ban on robots, you mean?

    Thats straight out of the 1810s.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784
    edited January 2018
    Mortimer said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    .


    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.
    That is a very 1970s vision of the results of Corbynism. I'm not saying you are totally off the mark, but I'd expect considerable and, perhaps, surprising variations along any such theme.
    Like the ban on robots, you mean?

    Thats straight out of the 1810s.
    Luddism has to move with the times, don't you know.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Pro_Rata said:

    Mortimer said:

    Like the ban on robots, you mean?

    Thats straight out of the 1810s.

    Luddism has to move with the times, don't you know.
    If only Amber Rudd were of that persuasion we'd have a good neologism for them.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Pro_Rata said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    .


    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.
    That is a very 1970s vision of the results of Corbynism. I'm not saying you are totally off the mark, but I'd expect considerable and, perhaps, surprising variations along any such theme.
    Like the ban on robots, you mean?

    Thats straight out of the 1810s.
    Luddism has to move with the times, don't you know.
    :)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited January 2018
    Pro_Rata said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    .
    ?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.
    That is a very 1970s vision of the results of Corbynism. I'm not saying you are totally off the mark, but I'd expect considerable and, perhaps, surprising variations along any such theme.
    Of course, because the 1970s was the last time we had a socialist failed state in Britain. Corbyn came of age in the 70s and his views appear not to have changed since then.

    2020s socialist failures will of course look different, maybe it will be the impact of currency controls on foreign holidays that most hits home to the millennials why socialism doesn’t work, or perhaps the massive price increases on imported electronics and out-of-season foods as the currency becomes increasingly worthless in a much more globalised world?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Mortimer said:

    IanB2 said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...

    You may be forgetting that some of us are middle aged. I remember Corbyn in the 80s, and not at all fondly. No smear campaign required.
    Leaving aside questions about what is or isn't middle aged....

    If they did their smear campaign for the benefits of under 55s then they should have probably tried more modern attacks lines than, winter of discontent, IRA, reds under the bed and 1983 hard left longest suicide note.

    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    The odd thing is how Brexit Tories simultaneously appear to appreciate how badly Project Fear backfired for Cammo and Osbo (and almost lost Sindy1) yet remain convinced that the same approach is the way for the Tories to see off the threat from Corbyn,
    The fear of a Labour managed economy secured, credit where it is due to Dave, the first Tory majority in decades.

    It swung undecideds. And destroyed the LDs....
    Was it fear of a Labour-managed economy that did it, or fear of a Labour government beholden to the SNP? English nationalism is the common denominator between the 2015 and 2016 results.
    The Tories also made gains in Wales in 2015 and Wales, like England, voted Leave in 2016
    Perhaps Wales belongs to England, politically speaking.
    The two main parties in both countries are the Tories and Labour, Plaid is nowhere near as strong as Sinn Fein or the SNP and both voted for Brexit so even in the unlikely event Scotland voted to leave the UK and Northern Ireland to join the Republic England and Wales would likely stay united. They have both been united politically since the 16th century and under the same monarch since the 13th century
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Sandpit said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    .
    ?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.
    That is a very 1970s vision of the results of Corbynism. I'm not saying you are totally off the mark, but I'd expect considerable and, perhaps, surprising variations along any such theme.
    Of course, because the 1970s was the last time we had a socialist failed state in Britain. Corbyn came of age in the 70s and his views appear not to have changed since then.

    2020s socialist failures will of course look different, maybe it will be the impact of currency controls on foreign holidays that most hits home to the millennials why socialism doesn’t work, or perhaps the massive price increases on imported electronics and out-of-season foods as the currency becomes increasingly worthless?
    AVOCADO CRISIS IN SHOREDITCH
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was it fear of a Labour-managed economy that did it, or fear of a Labour government beholden to the SNP? English nationalism is the common denominator between the 2015 and 2016 results.

    The Tories also made gains in Wales in 2015 and Wales, like England, voted Leave in 2016
    Perhaps Wales belongs to England, politically speaking.
    The two main parties in both countries are the Tories and Labour, Plaid is nowhere near as strong as Sinn Fein or the SNP and both voted for Brexit so even in the unlikely event Scotland voted to leave the UK and Northern Ireland to join the Republic England and Wales would likely stay united. They have both been united politically since the 16th century and under the same monarch since the 13th century
    Yes, so the fact that Wales voted the same way as England proper supports my original point, I think.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Mortimer said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Sandpit said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:



    .
    ?
    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.
    We want decent jobs not zero hours contracts.

    We want a chance to own homes or at least decent rents if not rather than using our hard work to pay for the Tory property owning generation.

    The idea that this plays into the Tories hands at all seems a bit far fetched, the polling seems to indicate that young people actually think differently to how you seem to imagine. It is all very well saying they are the most consumerist and capitalist, to my eyes they seem the most socialist for quite some time, check out young peoples views in a number of polls and they come out on Corbyn's side.
    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.
    That is a very 1970s vision of the results of Corbynism. I'm not saying you are totally off the mark, but I'd expect considerable and, perhaps, surprising variations along any such theme.
    Of course, because the 1970s was the last time we had a socialist failed state in Britain. Corbyn came of age in the 70s and his views appear not to have changed since then.

    2020s socialist failures will of course look different, maybe it will be the impact of currency controls on foreign holidays that most hits home to the millennials why socialism doesn’t work, or perhaps the massive price increases on imported electronics and out-of-season foods as the currency becomes increasingly worthless?
    AVOCADO CRISIS IN SHOREDITCH
    You could be writing headlines for the Evening Standard. ;)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited January 2018
    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    In proportional terms Wales was a total disaster area for TMay's Tories last June. The party lost 27.3% of the seats it held. In vote terms the 36.6% was the highest in Wales since 1935 - but it is seats that count.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    The thing about the NHS politically is its salience. Virtually all of us are going to need it at some point. It is crucially important to all of us that it's not impossibly expensive, impossibly slow or simply bad. By comparison, many issues which appear to be front-line, suxh as Brexit, are actually not regarded by most people as salient at all. They'll express a view if asked (cf. the referendum) but they only think about it once in a blue moon.

    Labour is obviously keen on the NHS. The Conservatives seem ambiguous, having to keep reassuring us that they love it, while toying in the back room with alternative models of doubtful benefit. They are as convincing on this as Labour is on, say, looking after the City - we assure people we'd like to, but don't say it with much conviction. But for most people, the position of the City doesn't appear salient even if it should.

    Instead, the Conservatives (and the LibDems) seem abolutely fascinated by Brexit. I rather share this fascination. But most voters don't.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited January 2018



    Labour is obviously keen on the NHS. The Conservatives seem ambiguous, having to keep reassuring us that they love it, while toying in the back room with alternative models of doubtful benefit. They are as convincing on this as Labour is on, say, looking after the City - we assure people we'd like to, but don't say it with much conviction. .

    I really don't know that either of those things is right in terms of them being ambiuous about them. I see no reason either party cannot be entirely sincere in what they are saying on the NHS and the City, they just happen to have more complicated views, but since when does toying with alternate models on either mean they are not convincingly 'keen' on it. An argument could be made that if something is not perfect, and neither is, attempting things rather than bland mantras and being the best in the world and don't do anything but either leave it alone (in the case of the city) or give it more money (in the event of the NHS) is in fact showing more keeness. Of course, doing something for no sake other than being seen to do something, but it not being useful, is not good, being seeking to tweak things doesn't mean a party is not keen on a thing. Only those outright critical of the NHS or the City would, i think, reasonably be said to not be keen.

    It's just that even if parties don't have as their official position 'I hate the NHS/the City' their opponents pretend that is their position. And unless that is the official position, or there is good reason to claim the official position is misleading, it is merely pretending.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.

    The problem will only be if they prefer that disaster over the current disaster.

    At times this forum is like a distorted HoC debate dominated by 'the berserkers' (look it up). They've all turned up; many other MPs happen to have other business.

    I'd hazard a guess that PB has 1.5-2 right-wing posts per LibDem/Green/Labour/SNP post. I lose count of PB Tories, and I lose count of their tedious half-truths.

    But there's also one untruth above. The main house price crash in my lifetime occurred in ~1992. In the downturn, some architects and surveyors went bankrupt. A clue: this wasn't a Labour govt.

    Old Labour govts and the One Nation Tory govts between them - which followed similar policies - delivered rather higher economic growth 1945-1979 than Thatcher and Sons delivered 1980-2017. Check it yourself. Over and out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    In proportional terms Wales was a total disaster area for TMay's Tories last June. The party lost 27.3% of the seats it held. In vote terms the 36.6% was the highest in Wales since 1935 - but it is seats that count.

    The Tories did not do as well as 2015 in Wales but the 8 seats they did win was the same as in 2010 which was in turn the Tories best result in the Principality since 1987. 1997 or 2001 when the Tories won no seats at all in Wales was a disaster, 2017 was not
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    China's brilliant for poor people. They deliver a few lucky poor people first rocket stages, along with nice, warming fires and expensive (if slightly poisonous) chemicals:

    https://twitter.com/cnspaceflight/status/951700575015419904/video/1
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.

    The problem will only be if they prefer that disaster over the current disaster.

    At times this forum is like a distorted HoC debate dominated by 'the berserkers' (look it up). They've all turned up; many other MPs happen to have other business.

    I'd hazard a guess that PB has 1.5-2 right-wing posts per LibDem/Green/Labour/SNP post. I lose count of PB Tories, and I lose count of their tedious half-truths.

    But there's also one untruth above. The main house price crash in my lifetime occurred in ~1992. In the downturn, some architects and surveyors went bankrupt. A clue: this wasn't a Labour govt.

    Old Labour govts and the One Nation Tory govts between them - which followed similar policies - delivered rather higher economic growth 1945-1979 than Thatcher and Sons delivered 1980-2017. Check it yourself. Over and out.
    Hehe. Its not my period (I'm a medievalist), but I'd hazard that our economic output in 1945 was somewhat suppressed. Other things had been getting in the way....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,756
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    stodge said:

    Sandpit said:

    The problem we have is that the current younger generation have never lived through a real Labour government, only the one run by that Tory Tony.

    They don’t know what a run on the pound, capital and currency controls and a house price crash actually look like in practice, nor what it’s like to have the IMF writing your budgets because the markets will no longer buy your debt. Of public services being run for the benefit of those employed rather than their customers, of transport networks shut down for weeks on end because a manager caught a shop steward drunk in charge of a train, of rolling power cuts, bins not collected and the dead unburied...

    I’m just hoping that they never get to find out.

    The problem will only be if they prefer that disaster over the current disaster.

    At times this forum is like a distorted HoC debate dominated by 'the berserkers' (look it up). They've all turned up; many other MPs happen to have other business.

    I'd hazard a guess that PB has 1.5-2 right-wing posts per LibDem/Green/Labour/SNP post. I lose count of PB Tories, and I lose count of their tedious half-truths.

    But there's also one untruth above. The main house price crash in my lifetime occurred in ~1992. In the downturn, some architects and surveyors went bankrupt. A clue: this wasn't a Labour govt.

    Old Labour govts and the One Nation Tory govts between them - which followed similar policies - delivered rather higher economic growth 1945-1979 than Thatcher and Sons delivered 1980-2017. Check it yourself. Over and out.
    Your growth figures are misleading. 1945-mid/late 60s were great. Next decade was poor. It would have got worse if it hadn’t been for the course correction under Thatcher.

    The Lawson boom of the late 80s was problematic and house prices had to readjust. But the early 70s was as bad.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
  • Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
    Which was only possible because they abandoned left wing economics and embraced capitalist free market reforms even without a free society.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
    And the western leader who deserves the most credit for that is Nixon. Perhaps a role model for PM Corbyn?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
    And the western leader who deserves the most credit for that is Nixon. Perhaps a role model for PM Corbyn?
    In what way?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
    And the western leader who deserves the most credit for that is Nixon. Perhaps a role model for PM Corbyn?
    In what way?
    Well it was a poor attempt at a joke rather than a serious point. Maybe Corbyn could do something transformative in relations with some of the black sheep of the international community though, although 'Corbyn goes to Tehran' would lack the element of surprise.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,757

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:

    It is a very low bar, but last time I heard a poll of front line politicians in the UK Corbyn came out on top, although should be noted very marmite. Although I imagine many would have a similar low opinion of Atlee if the right wing newspapers (and the left wing ones most of the time) had organised a smear campaign similar to the one Corbyn suffered over 2 years, particularly if he had such a hard to control PLP determined to undermine him such as Corbyn had.

    Considering the very tough circumstances he was given and the fact he not only overcame them but came out stronger suggest you may be underestimating him, not a first with regards to Corbyn opponents...


    Although I say that but Corbyn's policies are actually popular with younger people so maybe random shot smear campaign was a better bet, or some way to convince the 35-45 group to go a bit more Tory and leave the young vote as it is?

    Capital controls? Not being able to go on holiday because you can't take money out of the country. That'd be a winner, sure. Just ask JustinShortStraws

    More frequent strikes? Not being able to travel, get s just farcical.
    I can't remember any of these being actual policies. Anymore than I could make a list of potential horror Tory policies that are unlikely and horrible effects from their leadership. Privatising the NHS for example has had a bigger airing in conservative circles than the chancellor commenting about war gaming a run on the pound if Labour came to power. Well higher taxes for those on over 80k but do you really think that is a massive put off for younger voters?

    I'd argue most of them want at least half the chances their parents generation had, unfortunately for the Tories that means taking away from their target base. So I presume this young most capitalist consumerist (second one maybe, first one I question) will go for the alternative?

    Or is this generation you make sound a bit greedy also incredibly patient and happy to wait until 61 (average age was it) to inherit from their parents?

    Perhaps my ideas are not the farcical ones?

    Houses is the best idea for Tories but they are rapidly running out of time and the vast majority of young people trust Corbyn/Labour far more than the Tories on the issue without some incredible changes in the next few years housing is going to be something massively in favour of Corbyn come the next election.
    There is a good deal of newly-built housing coming on to the market now, and outside of Greater London, housing has gradually become more affordable in recent years. The difficulty for young people is that lenders require much bigger deposits than they used to.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Was it fear of a Labour-managed economy that did it, or fear of a Labour government beholden to the SNP? English nationalism is the common denominator between the 2015 and 2016 results.

    The Tories also made gains in Wales in 2015 and Wales, like England, voted Leave in 2016
    Perhaps Wales belongs to England, politically speaking.
    The two main parties in both countries are the Tories and Labour, Plaid is nowhere near as strong as Sinn Fein or the SNP and both voted for Brexit so even in the unlikely event Scotland voted to leave the UK and Northern Ireland to join the Republic England and Wales would likely stay united. They have both been united politically since the 16th century and under the same monarch since the 13th century
    Yes, so the fact that Wales voted the same way as England proper supports my original point, I think.
    I am not sure that under normal circumstances that is the case. Brexit changed the dynamic in Wales, somewhat ironic considering that Wales has done particularly well out of the European Social Fund.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,756
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
    Yes and it is fairly rampant capitalism that has achieved that. None of the H&s standards, environmental standards or protection from exploitation that we enjoy but incredible growth. I find it remarkable that Corbyn finds much to admire in such a system.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,757

    Jonathan said:

    I don't get it. When the pound fell Brexit supporters told us it was good news, that we were more competitive. Now it rises and they claim it's good news again.

    Nah. I am still on the 'low pound good' team. The last few months have shown what a big advantage we have from having sterling at a lower value. I will be sorry to see it rise to its pre-referendum levels against any of our major export markets.
    Both the weaker pound, and the recovery in demand in overseas markets, have been good for our economy.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,757
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
    Yes and it is fairly rampant capitalism that has achieved that. None of the H&s standards, environmental standards or protection from exploitation that we enjoy but incredible growth. I find it remarkable that Corbyn finds much to admire in such a system.
    They kill their opponents. He'd admire them for that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
    Yes and it is fairly rampant capitalism that has achieved that. None of the H&s standards, environmental standards or protection from exploitation that we enjoy but incredible growth. I find it remarkable that Corbyn finds much to admire in such a system.
    It’s not remarkable. He just doesn’t understand it. (He refers to it as “communist China”)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,757
    Mortimer said:

    RobD said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:
    Whats that sound, you say?

    Yep, its williamglenn's federalist bubble bursting.
    No, it's the sound of desperation as another 'no cherry-picking' statement gets parsed to death and misinterpreted.
    I just read your hilarious comment about not being possible to leave the customs union.

    You really need to read Tim Shipman's book. It was decided LAST JANUARY.
    Oh dear. Do you think ideas that spring from Nick Timothy's head instantly become laws of physics?
    I don't think being in the customs union is required by the laws of physics. :)
    It is, of course, necessary if the williamglenn plan for a triumphant federal europe isn't to be blown out of the water by a nation leaving and making a success of it.

    I find it such a bizarre position to stake out as an impossibility. There might be some advantages to staying in the SM; I don't think so, personally, but it is debatable. Everyone (apart from a few europeandreamers) agrees that leaving the EU and staying in the customs union is just crackers.
    I doubt if the EU would want a large non-member in the Customs Union, either.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,756
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
    Yes and it is fairly rampant capitalism that has achieved that. None of the H&s standards, environmental standards or protection from exploitation that we enjoy but incredible growth. I find it remarkable that Corbyn finds much to admire in such a system.
    It’s not remarkable. He just doesn’t understand it. (He refers to it as “communist China”)
    God, he’s thick. The possibility of him becoming PM is genuinely scary.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    A late arrival at the sleaze ball...
    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/956292903634132993
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,756
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
    Yes and it is fairly rampant capitalism that has achieved that. None of the H&s standards, environmental standards or protection from exploitation that we enjoy but incredible growth. I find it remarkable that Corbyn finds much to admire in such a system.
    They kill their opponents. He'd admire them for that.
    Unless you can categorise the killers as western imperialists or their lackeys it’s all good.
  • Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    I don't get it. When the pound fell Brexit supporters told us it was good news, that we were more competitive. Now it rises and they claim it's good news again.

    Nah. I am still on the 'low pound good' team. The last few months have shown what a big advantage we have from having sterling at a lower value. I will be sorry to see it rise to its pre-referendum levels against any of our major export markets.
    Both the weaker pound, and the recovery in demand in overseas markets, have been good for our economy.
    Though sterling has already fully recovered now against the dollar.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,756
    dr_spyn said:
    Wonder why they thought it prudent to blur the men’s faces.
  • Now its possible that the labour market is increasingly erratic or that the ONS has produced some dodgy stats but there seems to have been a very big increase in employment and an even bigger change in the demand for workers.

    From a quarterly reduction of 56,000 in the three months of August to October to a quarterly increase of 102,000 in the three months of September to November:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/december2017

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/january2018

    The increase in job vaccancies to a new record does back this up.

    On the other hand unemployment has stopped falling and has actually increased during the last two months so where are all these extra workers coming from ?

    More oldies working ? Fewer students ? An increase in immigration ? People working fewer hours ?
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited January 2018
    stodge said:

    Mortimer said:


    My generation, in the main, comment about politics on american tech platforms, we aspire to succeed, not pick berries for making jam. We want to own our own houses, not live in a council owned property. We want jobs, not restrictions that make employers cut jobs.

    How nice for you to live in your own little self-affirming right-wing echo chamber.

    As for "my generation", didn't they overwhelmingly back Corbyn and Labour in June ? You might not like that, accept it or believe it but not everyone thinks the current Government is the greatest there has ever been.
    +1. The fact that my and Mortimer’s generation is economically liberal makes the Tories inability to appeal to my generation even more unbelievable.

    Brand Corbyn is a big reason why many young people are voting Labour - there’s a sense among many of his voters that he is ‘on their side.’ Ironically, his politics is in some ways pretty different to many of those who are voting for him. But as long as the Tories are seen as worse, that won’t be losing him many supporters in my generation.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/jeremy-corbyn-young-people-on-election
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741

    <
    Though sterling has already fully recovered now against the dollar.

    Less headway against the Euro and currencies like the Australian dollar where there has been almost no "recovery" since 23/6/16.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    'Strong and stable' becomes 'safe and ethical'.
    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/956295231791665153
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784
    On the topic of this morning's thread - 100/1 to 150/1 are fairly generic odds on improbable events for which there may be a logic or market. If you believe a realignment is coming, those too tainted by government are not the likely LD leader names though, Greening, Soubry and the like would seem more likely.

    Those aren't the realignment bets I'm keeping an eye on though. My thought is that realignment is only possible in the face of an imminent hard Brexit, mass ministerial resignations from the top to bottom, and either the failure of the Tories to find enough people willing to join cabinet in the chaos, or putting together such a hardline cabinet that remain Tories feel at liberty to do the ultimate sabotage and vote for no confidence.

    In which case, I still see Corbyn Labour failing to gain confidence, but if the EU can't postpone hard Brexit due to the crisis, does Cable - still electorally nowhere - try to put together a (temporary) majority of remainers, and do the rules of precedence in trying to form a government and the politics allow it? The need to form an immediate government, to me, is what drives any near term realignment.

    A lot of ifs and worst case scenarios here, but are Cable's very generic odds of 125/1 for a LD leader in the next PM market slightly generous? Would 66s be nearer the mark? I'm not parting with my money yet, but I'm trying to imagine what an imminent negotiation collapse would look like and why phase 1, which looked bad enough, didn't represent such a crisis? If the crisis does seem to be coming, maybe Vince might represent value.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    edited January 2018
    1 more heave?

    Duplicate - remains to be seen if Tories have balls to write more letters. May just be gossip, but who would they have in mind as PM?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    dr_spyn said:

    1 more heave?

    If a vote of confidence were called, would the cabinet line up in support of her? If not then she may as well go immediately.
  • stodge said:

    <
    Though sterling has already fully recovered now against the dollar.

    Less headway against the Euro and currencies like the Australian dollar where there has been almost no "recovery" since 23/6/16.

    Good. We don't want the 'recovery' you are talking about.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Mail suggests that some 'professional' hostesses were entertaining those Presidents at that dinner.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    GIN1138 said:
    I think she absolutely walks a confidence vote at the moment. Would be surprised if the 'no confidence' total reaches 75.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    dr_spyn said:
    The hypocrisy of the home of page 3 moaning about this dinner is ridiculous
  • Mortimer said:

    GIN1138 said:
    I think she absolutely walks a confidence vote at the moment. Would be surprised if the 'no confidence' total reaches 75.
    Unfortunately that would make it harder to be rid of her later. This is a daft way to proceed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,756

    Now its possible that the labour market is increasingly erratic or that the ONS has produced some dodgy stats but there seems to have been a very big increase in employment and an even bigger change in the demand for workers.

    From a quarterly reduction of 56,000 in the three months of August to October to a quarterly increase of 102,000 in the three months of September to November:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/december2017

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/january2018

    The increase in job vaccancies to a new record does back this up.

    On the other hand unemployment has stopped falling and has actually increased during the last two months so where are all these extra workers coming from ?

    More oldies working ? Fewer students ? An increase in immigration ? People working fewer hours ?

    I can’t help believing that there is a fairly large pool of labour that finds the requirements for benefits just too onerous and drop out of the stats. If they can obtain flexible employment they can be tempted back into the job market, especially if the lack of benefits is beginning to hurt. A friend of my brother was paid off when his company became insolvent and is now claiming UC. He is supposed to spend 35 hours a week looking for work and has to prove that he has done so. This is supposed to involve cold calling potential local employers pretty much daily to see if a job is available. He needs to vouch his online applications as well. It is not hard to imagine many people simply failing to meet requirements like this and falling off the register.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited January 2018

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    So I see Venezuela is going to the polls early. With Maduro having set up his own puppet authority to bypass his opponents, then previously said opposition parties cannot take part in future elections due to boycotting his puppet authority, I'm super sure he would be happy to stand down if he were to somehow lose despite the apparently weakened opposition.

    Corbyn’s moved on from Venezuela

    Today he said that China had the best approach in the world for dealing with poverty
    Capitalism?
    TBF is you take a simplistic view of the numbers about half of people lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years have been in China...
    And the western leader who deserves the most credit for that is Nixon. Perhaps a role model for PM Corbyn?
    Nixon met Mao, it was only under his successor, Deng Xiaoping, who took over in 1978 after Mao had died and Nixon had left office that China moved away from Communism towards Capitalism. Nixon brought China in from the cold in international affairs but it was Deng who changed it economically
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited January 2018

    Mortimer said:

    GIN1138 said:
    I think she absolutely walks a confidence vote at the moment. Would be surprised if the 'no confidence' total reaches 75.
    Unfortunately that would make it harder to be rid of her later. This is a daft way to proceed.
    The no confidence letter count resets to zero, presumably, after a vote?

    I just don't see what is in it to have a confidence vote now. She won't lose it, because Brexit, and there isn't an obvious successor, so she'll also get the 'steady as we go' and 'our fave isn't ready yet/assured of victory' vote. There isn't an election imminent, and we're polling in the 40s.

    Thinking aloud, and contingent on a positive answer to my first question, the only advantage to having a vote now would seem to be that it resets the count to zero....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Should I stock up on popcorn?
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    GIN1138 said:
    I think she absolutely walks a confidence vote at the moment. Would be surprised if the 'no confidence' total reaches 75.
    Unfortunately that would make it harder to be rid of her later. This is a daft way to proceed.
    The no confidence letter count resets to zero, presumably, after a vote?

    I just don't see what is in it to have a confidence vote now. She won't lose it, because Brexit, and there isn't an obvious successor, so she'll also get the 'steady as we go' and 'our fave isn't ready yet/assured of victory' vote. There isn't an election imminent, and we're polling in the 40s.

    Thinking aloud, and contingent on a positive answer to my first question, the only advantage to having a vote now would seem to be that it resets the count to zero....
    If she wins the vote the letter count resets to zero.

    No letters will be accepted for one year as winning the vote prevents another vote for 365 days.
  • Mortimer said:

    The no confidence letter count resets to zero, presumably, after a vote?

    I just don't see what is in it to have a confidence vote now. She won't lose it, because Brexit, and there isn't an obvious successor, so she'll also get the 'steady as we go' vote. There isn't an election imminent, and we're polling in the 40s.

    Thinking aloud, and contingent on a positive answer to my first question, the only advantage to having a vote now would seem to be that it resets the count to zero....

    On the other hand there have been some distinct murmurings over the past couple of weeks - Boris, obv (but that's not really news), but also Nick Boles, Sarah Wollaston. Nicholas Soames, Grant Schapps again. I thought that was just noise and the usual suspects, but maybe there is something more concerted going on.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784
    GIN1138 said:
    Presumably, if a small handful of lackadaisical MPs now remember they still have a letter lodged and are prompted to withdraw, the panic will have done its job.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    GIN1138 said:
    I think she absolutely walks a confidence vote at the moment. Would be surprised if the 'no confidence' total reaches 75.
    Unfortunately that would make it harder to be rid of her later. This is a daft way to proceed.
    The no confidence letter count resets to zero, presumably, after a vote?

    I just don't see what is in it to have a confidence vote now. She won't lose it, because Brexit, and there isn't an obvious successor, so she'll also get the 'steady as we go' and 'our fave isn't ready yet/assured of victory' vote. There isn't an election imminent, and we're polling in the 40s.

    Thinking aloud, and contingent on a positive answer to my first question, the only advantage to having a vote now would seem to be that it resets the count to zero....
    If she wins the vote the letter count resets to zero.

    No letters will be accepted for one year as winning the vote prevents another vote for 365 days.
    Ta, Mr Eagles. Very interesting.

    Would be a move worthy of FU to inflict that on oneself....

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956
    edited January 2018
    FWIW I think if 100 or more Tory MPs fail to back Mrs May then she’s toast.

    JRM’s displeasure with David Davis today, I think the latest letters are coming from the hardcore Leavers.

    PS - I spent tonight discussing the Tory leadership/Vote of Confidence rules with a former SPAD.
This discussion has been closed.