I imagine it is an age thing, with figures the opposite way for say mainstream newspaper readership.
It's an age thing but also a maturity thing. A lot of people don't feel the need to get all shouty about politics with strangers. Many will consign politician opinions to the home, the pub and the ballot box, which in the most part is a good thing.
The pub in this example is the older persons twitter. Plenty of political related things to criticise Twitter for but political discussion seems a strange one.
Maybe not so much critical of the political discussion, more the weight given to it by parts of the media. When was the last time the BBC imbedded facebook comments on their website let alone do voxpops (which only appears to happen around election time) ? It's in the interest of some to pretend that twitter is a valid & even-handed source of news when this study suggests it isn't always so.
I focused on the bit in quote marks - what the diplomat actually said. You chose to focus on the Telegraph’s interpretation.
I think it’s sweet that you rate the Telegraph so highly
As for your second point: we have a non contributory welfare system. I like that any UK citizen can rely (to some degree) on the state as a safety net. But we can’t afford to extend that largesse to everyone.
If FoM was the right to come without a visa and look for a job but “without recourse to public funds” then it would have been much less of an issue
As it happens, I personally don't think it would dent immigration that much if we denied access to public funds. Contrary to myth, most immigrants are happy to work hard to make the most of their opportunity, as generations of immigrants to the US (which has little welfare state) clearly shows.
The problem is (a) are we happy to have totally destitute people here, perhaps with children, with no food, no home, no healthcare and no schooling who for whatever reason evade going back home (b) can access to the welfare state be denied them through human rights law (we will still be subject to ECHR after Brexit) and (c) restricting welfare access is likely to have little impact on numbers, again as the US experience shows
After today, I think I’ve realised that Brexit vs Remain is a good interview question.
Answering Brexit implies a lack of basic mathematics and logical ability which means you’d be pretty useless at my workplace. Nadine Dorries (it’s too complex, let’s leave!) is the poster child.
I wonder what Nadine does when she needs specialist medical help? Presumably she’s into self-medicating.
Mr. Meeks, once again, the only people banging on about the Empire are those who wish to remain and are busy constructing a fictional argument to attack.
For some reason, some really weird Leavers have plucked New Zealand, Canada and Australia as countries to forge a new close relationship with. They are all three geographically remote from us. Canada is geographically remote from the other two. All three have high levels of immigration, something that normally makes Leavers reach for the sal volatile. All three to a far higher extent than Britain are resources economies, with very different needs. None, given their size, are particularly close trading partners at present.
In fact, the only reasons that these countries seem to have been chosen for courting is that they are predominantly white and were once part of the empire.
We export more to "geographically remote" Singapore each year than we do to Romania, Malta, Cyprus, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Slovenia, Latvia , Estonia and Croatia.
Combined.
Yet you leave Singapore out of Canzuk. Poor Singapore. Obviously it isn't white enough for the Brexiters.
Another straw man - there are 200+ countries in the world - focusing on 3 or 27 is for the narrow minded.
And that's my point. Canzuk has been selected by the nut-nut Leavers as a new union. Why the Canzuk countries? It's not economics. Singapore would certainly qualify. It's not "shared heritage". Again, Singapore would certainly qualify. But there's something that differentiates Australia, New Zealand and Canada from the rest.
It is of course race.
No problem with Singapore joining in if they wish - full of hard working people who would contribute to society and improve trade between the countries.
Contrary to what you may wish to believe, not all Leave voters are little Nick Griffins.
Likewise, perhaps important to also note that not all remainers are like Alistair meeks.
Indeed so. I’d say the vast majority in fact. The hardcore Remoaners are perhaps only 5%, but massively overrepresented in the media and politics.
I've always maintained the BBC should rely 99% less on twitter for news stories due to the huge liberal bias in attitudes, subject matter and outrage.This study (if true) backs that up, and tbf Matt Singh usually isn't far off the mark.
You could make a similar argument for the printed press as well though. Wouldn't it be better for the BBC to still use both to an extent whilst trying to maintain a fair stance as much as possible?
Perhaps they could actually engage in proper journalism and get out among the public and gain a range of opinions. A wide subset of the population are completely unrepresented on twitter and thus sometimes the news and views presented on the Beeb move to the beat of those who type the loudest.
After today, I think I’ve realised that Brexit vs Remain is a good interview question.
Answering Brexit implies a lack of basic mathematics and logical ability which means you’d be pretty useless at my workplace. Nadine Dorries (it’s too complex, let’s leave!) is the poster child.
I wonder what Nadine does when she needs specialist medical help? Presumably she’s into self-medicating.
I recall that Nadine was a nurse by profession.
But does Nadine wish to work at McDonalds with Mrs Garden Walker?
I think it’s sweet that you rate the Telegraph so highly
I do not rate the Telegraph, but look around - all papers carry the story.
It is almost like you do not want to hear it. Go ahead then, ask the Indians for an FTA and see what they demand. They have already told us the answer.
Mr. Meeks, once again, the only people banging on about the Empire are those who wish to remain and are busy constructing a fictional argument to attack.
For some reason, some really weird Leavers have plucked New Zealand, Canada and Australia as countries to forge a new close relationship with. They are all three geographically remote from us. Canada is geographically remote from the other two. All three have high levels of immigration, something that normally makes Leavers reach for the sal volatile. All three to a far higher extent than Britain are resources economies, with very different needs. None, given their size, are particularly close trading partners at present.
In fact, the only reasons that these countries seem to have been chosen for courting is that they are predominantly white and were once part of the empire.
We export more to "geographically remote" Singapore each year than we do to Romania, Malta, Cyprus, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Slovenia, Latvia , Estonia and Croatia.
Combined.
Yet you leave Singapore out of Canzuk. Poor Singapore. Obviously it isn't white enough for the Brexiters.
Another straw man - there are 200+ countries in the world - focusing on 3 or 27 is for the narrow minded.
And that's my point. Canzuk has been selected by the nut-nut Leavers as a new union. Why the Canzuk countries? It's not economics. Singapore would certainly qualify. It's not "shared heritage". Again, Singapore would certainly qualify. But there's something that differentiates Australia, New Zealand and Canada from the rest.
It is of course race.
No problem with Singapore joining in if they wish - full of hard working people who would contribute to society and improve trade between the countries.
Contrary to what you may wish to believe, not all Leave voters are little Nick Griffins.
Likewise, perhaps important to also note that not all remainers are like Alistair meeks.
Indeed so. I’d say the vast majority in fact. The hardcore Remoaners are perhaps only 5%, but massively overrepresented in the media and politics.
From my experiences very common on twitter but very rare in real life, unless of course they lead double lives...
What does all of this mean? Well, anyone pretending that Twitter was an impartial gauge of reaction to news events already needed unfollowing… Now they deserve to be ratioed. That applies, to a lesser extent, to Facebook, and possibly to other platforms (though the BES only asked about these two). And if these biases go beyond what can be explained by demographics, pollsters probably need to look carefully at where they’re recruiting panelists from.
And that's my point. Canzuk has been selected by the nut-nut Leavers as a new union. Why the Canzuk countries? It's not economics. Singapore would certainly qualify. It's not "shared heritage". Again, Singapore would certainly qualify. But there's something that differentiates Australia, New Zealand and Canada from the rest.
It is of course race.
I'd have no problem with free movement with Singapore if they have any interest. The income levels are similar enough and they are fairly civilised and pseudo-democratic.
So that is yet another argument without any merit. Any more?
No one has any interest in this idea apart from a few reactionary weirdos.
That's a confusing message. It was your idea that you said people wouldn't agree to, then when someone did you're complaining that only a few reactionary weirdos have any interest in your own idea? What's your point?
Personally yes I do see a world of difference between Australia, New Zealand and Canada, versus other nations and no it doesn't come down to race. In fact racially Australia is a lot more diverse than most of the nations we have free movement with today.
I grew up in Australia and modern day Australia is an incredibly diverse country, more diverse than almost any other nation in Europe. It has a lower percentage of white population than almost any other nation in Europe.
I've always maintained the BBC should rely 99% less on twitter for news stories due to the huge liberal bias in attitudes, subject matter and outrage.This study (if true) backs that up, and tbf Matt Singh usually isn't far off the mark.
You could make a similar argument for the printed press as well though. Wouldn't it be better for the BBC to still use both to an extent whilst trying to maintain a fair stance as much as possible?
Perhaps they could actually engage in proper journalism and get out among the public and gain a range of opinions. A wide subset of the population are completely unrepresented on twitter and thus sometimes the news and views presented on the Beeb move to the beat of those who type the loudest.
They should never only use twitter or newspapers but I do think they both have a value as they both represent a section of society and voters. Younger Labour remain voters more on Twitter and older Conservative leave voters more reading newspapers.
Of course Canzuk is designed to apply to the backward-looking imperialists who can't imagine that those three countries have long moved on since the 1970s. Quite why Britain would otherwise have any special tie-up with those countries, none of whose economies have much in common with Britain's, is otherwise inexplicable.
Yes - Britain's economy is far more aligned to Greece, Malta and Latvia.
Sounds like an excellent lunch was had.
Britain's trade with Malta is only marginally less than that with New Zealand, though New Zealand has ten times the population of Malta. As I thought, you're dealing off out of date preconceptions.
We do more trade with Belgium than we do with Canada, Australia and New Zealand combined.
Oh shush. Don't you realise that they're all pining for empire 2.0?
Yes I do realise that Alistair - that is why the FTA with India is so important, we need it to bootstrap the Raj 2.0 into life
1857, here we come........ Vrrroommmm!!!!!
If it hadn’t been for India you wouldn’t have had the University of Westminster
I do not have the University of Westminster. Until ten seconds ago, I had never heard of it
Of course Canzuk is designed to apply to the backward-looking imperialists who can't imagine that those three countries have long moved on since the 1970s. Quite why Britain would otherwise have any special tie-up with those countries, none of whose economies have much in common with Britain's, is otherwise inexplicable.
Yes - Britain's economy is far more aligned to Greece, Malta and Latvia. Sounds like an excellent lunch was had.
Britain's trade with Malta is only marginally less than that with New Zealand, though New Zealand has ten times the population of Malta. As I thought, you're dealing off out of date preconceptions.
We do more trade with Belgium than we do with Canada, Australia and New Zealand combined.
Oh shush. Don't you realise that they're all pining for empire 2.0?
Yes I do realise that Alistair - that is why the FTA with India is so important, we need it to bootstrap the Raj 2.0 into life 1857, here we come........ Vrrroommmm!!!!!
If it hadn’t been for India you wouldn’t have had the University of Westminster
Areyou suggesting, Mr Charles, that all its students come from the sub-continent?
After today, I think I’ve realised that Brexit vs Remain is a good interview question.
Answering Brexit implies a lack of basic mathematics and logical ability which means you’d be pretty useless at my workplace. Nadine Dorries (it’s too complex, let’s leave!) is the poster child.
I wonder what Nadine does when she needs specialist medical help? Presumably she’s into self-medicating.
I recall that Nadine was a nurse by profession.
But does Nadine wish to work at McDonalds with Mrs Garden Walker?
Eh? My wife would never work at McDonald’s. She prefers Five Guys. Ooer.
I've always maintained the BBC should rely 99% less on twitter for news stories due to the huge liberal bias in attitudes, subject matter and outrage.This study (if true) backs that up, and tbf Matt Singh usually isn't far off the mark.
You could make a similar argument for the printed press as well though. Wouldn't it be better for the BBC to still use both to an extent whilst trying to maintain a fair stance as much as possible?
Perhaps they could actually engage in proper journalism and get out among the public and gain a range of opinions. A wide subset of the population are completely unrepresented on twitter and thus sometimes the news and views presented on the Beeb move to the beat of those who type the loudest.
It's why I value the Gruniad's John Harris and his "Anywhere by Westminster" videos - although he's quite open about his personal views, he genuinely tries to get a random sample of people for vox pops and builds a picture from there.
I've always maintained the BBC should rely 99% less on twitter for news stories due to the huge liberal bias in attitudes, subject matter and outrage.This study (if true) backs that up, and tbf Matt Singh usually isn't far off the mark.
You could make a similar argument for the printed press as well though. Wouldn't it be better for the BBC to still use both to an extent whilst trying to maintain a fair stance as much as possible?
Perhaps they could actually engage in proper journalism and get out among the public and gain a range of opinions. A wide subset of the population are completely unrepresented on twitter and thus sometimes the news and views presented on the Beeb move to the beat of those who type the loudest.
It's why I value the Gruniad's John Harris and his "Anywhere by Westminster" videos - although he's quite open about his personal views, he genuinely tries to get a random sample of people for vox pops and builds a picture from there.
Agreed, John Harris is a cut above when it comes to capturing the public mood.
The Westminster Policy Institute (WPI) study shows the 69% who back Mrs May remaining in post contrasts to just 18% who feel she should stand aside.
The poll also finds that replacing the beleaguered PM with either Boris Johnson, David Davis or Amber Rudd could instead harm the Tories’ chances at the next election.
It suggests the Foreign Secretary would be the more divisive figure, with 11% of voters saying they would be more likely to vote Conservative were he in Downing Street, compared with 20% who would be less likely.
The findings mark a much-needed boost for the Prime Minister, who has come under fire from Tory MPs over the past week.
I wonder how much closer it would get if the choices were Eurozone membership vs hard WTO Brexit
Can we adopt the Euro and be outside the EU ?
It'd be useful as an exporter to mitigate currency risk to be perfectly honest.
Montenegro have done just that. It annoys the hell out of the EU (and has in fact been a stumbling block for Montenegrin entry into the EU, because they don't have their own central bank).
What does all of this mean? Well, anyone pretending that Twitter was an impartial gauge of reaction to news events already needed unfollowing… Now they deserve to be ratioed. That applies, to a lesser extent, to Facebook, and possibly to other platforms (though the BES only asked about these two). And if these biases go beyond what can be explained by demographics, pollsters probably need to look carefully at where they’re recruiting panelists from.
I wonder how much closer it would get if the choices were Eurozone membership vs hard WTO Brexit
Can we adopt the Euro and be outside the EU ?
It'd be useful as an exporter to mitigate currency risk to be perfectly honest.
That would be a true vassal state.
I guess that the vast majority of their trade is with the EU, and they don’t have a large financial industry, so the benefits of using a different currency outweigh the dangers of a lack of control over it. Quite a few very small countries use someone else’s currency, often the US$ or Euro.
I wonder how much closer it would get if the choices were Eurozone membership vs hard WTO Brexit
Can we adopt the Euro and be outside the EU ?
It'd be useful as an exporter to mitigate currency risk to be perfectly honest.
That would be a true vassal state.
I guess that the vast majority of their trade is with the EU, and they don’t have a large financial industry, so the benefits of using a different currency outweigh the dangers of a lack of control over it. Quite a few very small countries use someone else’s currency, often the US$ or Euro.
But they're outside the straitjacket of the EU. Why are they not going global and taking advantage of the trade opportunities with Tuvalu?
I wonder how much closer it would get if the choices were Eurozone membership vs hard WTO Brexit
Can we adopt the Euro and be outside the EU ?
It'd be useful as an exporter to mitigate currency risk to be perfectly honest.
That would be a true vassal state.
I guess that the vast majority of their trade is with the EU, and they don’t have a large financial industry, so the benefits of using a different currency outweigh the dangers of a lack of control over it. Quite a few very small countries use someone else’s currency, often the US$ or Euro.
Yebbut the original question came from @Pulpstar who says it would be a convenience for (UK) exporters.
After today, I think I’ve realised that Brexit vs Remain is a good interview question.
Answering Brexit implies a lack of basic mathematics and logical ability which means you’d be pretty useless at my workplace. Nadine Dorries (it’s too complex, let’s leave!) is the poster child.
I wonder what Nadine does when she needs specialist medical help? Presumably she’s into self-medicating.
I wonder how much closer it would get if the choices were Eurozone membership vs hard WTO Brexit
Can we adopt the Euro and be outside the EU ?
It'd be useful as an exporter to mitigate currency risk to be perfectly honest.
That would be a true vassal state.
I guess that the vast majority of their trade is with the EU, and they don’t have a large financial industry, so the benefits of using a different currency outweigh the dangers of a lack of control over it. Quite a few very small countries use someone else’s currency, often the US$ or Euro.
Yebbut the original question came from @Pulpstar who says it would be a convenience for (UK) exporters.
I’m sure it would be convenient for some exporters, those who sell mainly into the EU. There will be many others who disagree though, who mostly sell elsewhere. Many of those in the first group were probably happy to see the pound fall after the referendum, exports to everywhere have been on an upward trajectory ever since the vote.
20 per cent of Canada's population is from a visible minority, 26 per cent of New Zealand's population is not of white European origin and 30 per cent of residents of Australia were born overseas.
If you really wanted to stay part of a white European monoethnic club - which prioritises mostly white Europeans over other races and nationalities - you would want to stay in the EU where many nations are more than 99 per cent white. FOM was never an issue for Brits when it was with more diverse prosperous western European nations - it was adding poorer less diverse nations to the club that caused opposition to it to grow,
Singapore would of course merit being part of any Canzuk style Union on economic grounds and linguistic ones too as might Malaysia - but it has ASEAN and would frankly have no interest in it. When they have Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines as a source of young highly skilled labour they have would have no interest in importing Brits.
By contrast the current Canadian opposition leader is a Canzuk supporter as is the former PM of Australia and in some aspects the soon to be NZ Acting PM. When polled 82 per cent of New Zealanders, 75 per cent of Canadians and 70 per cent of Aussies supported it but only 58 per cent of Brits - and the Kiwis already of course have FOM with Australia. It's the Brits who seem least keen!
Canzuk won't go anywhere - but it merely highlights that if we are going to have freedom of movement it might actually be worth having it with countries which (a) actually have employment opportunities for young British people unlike much of the EU and (b) are actually places Brits would want to move to.
And when it comes to surveys - the top 3 nations Brits want to emigrate to are Australia, New Zealand and Canada!
I look forward to seeing wanted over in Bucharest on BBC daytime telly - but they seem more interested in wanted down under. Must be all those 'racists' at the Beeb!
I wonder how much closer it would get if the choices were Eurozone membership vs hard WTO Brexit
Can we adopt the Euro and be outside the EU ?
It'd be useful as an exporter to mitigate currency risk to be perfectly honest.
That would be a true vassal state.
I guess that the vast majority of their trade is with the EU, and they don’t have a large financial industry, so the benefits of using a different currency outweigh the dangers of a lack of control over it. Quite a few very small countries use someone else’s currency, often the US$ or Euro.
Yebbut the original question came from @Pulpstar who says it would be a convenience for (UK) exporters.
I’m sure it would be convenient for some exporters, those who sell mainly into the EU. There will be many others who disagree though, who mostly sell elsewhere. Many of those in the first group were probably happy to see the pound fall after the referendum, exports to everywhere have been on an upward trajectory ever since the vote.
We buy and sell globally in USD, EUR and GBP. Having only two currencies would make life easier !
Comments
(50%) (+7) The UK is going in the wrong direction
(30%) (-5) The UK is going in the right direction
(21%) (-1) Don’t know
http://uk.businessinsider.com/dcyfor-poll-britain-going-in-the-wrong-direction-worse-off-brexit-2018-1
The problem is (a) are we happy to have totally destitute people here, perhaps with children, with no food, no home, no healthcare and no schooling who for whatever reason evade going back home
(b) can access to the welfare state be denied them through human rights law (we will still be subject to ECHR after Brexit)
and (c) restricting welfare access is likely to have little impact on numbers, again as the US experience shows
It is almost like you do not want to hear it. Go ahead then, ask the Indians for an FTA and see what they demand. They have already told us the answer.
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/943497227342962689
What does all of this mean? Well, anyone pretending that Twitter was an impartial gauge of reaction to news events already needed unfollowing… Now they deserve to be ratioed. That applies, to a lesser extent, to Facebook, and possibly to other platforms (though the BES only asked about these two). And if these biases go beyond what can be explained by demographics, pollsters probably need to look carefully at where they’re recruiting panelists from.
https://www.ncpolitics.uk/2018/01/we-knew-social-media-wasnt-representative-but-these-numbers-are-incredible.html/
Personally yes I do see a world of difference between Australia, New Zealand and Canada, versus other nations and no it doesn't come down to race. In fact racially Australia is a lot more diverse than most of the nations we have free movement with today.
I grew up in Australia and modern day Australia is an incredibly diverse country, more diverse than almost any other nation in Europe. It has a lower percentage of white population than almost any other nation in Europe.
https://twitter.com/JunckerEU/status/958385789800517632
The Westminster Policy Institute (WPI) study shows the 69% who back Mrs May remaining in post contrasts to just 18% who feel she should stand aside.
The poll also finds that replacing the beleaguered PM with either Boris Johnson, David Davis or Amber Rudd could instead harm the Tories’ chances at the next election.
It suggests the Foreign Secretary would be the more divisive figure, with 11% of voters saying they would be more likely to vote Conservative were he in Downing Street, compared with 20% who would be less likely.
The findings mark a much-needed boost for the Prime Minister, who has come under fire from Tory MPs over the past week.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/theresa-may/news/92464/over-two-thirds-tory-voters-back
It'd be useful as an exporter to mitigate currency risk to be perfectly honest.
*correct spelling, ask any obstetrician
Any second referendum would yield the same result. No-one seems to have changed their mind.
20 per cent of Canada's population is from a visible minority, 26 per cent of New Zealand's population is not of white European origin and 30 per cent of residents of Australia were born overseas.
If you really wanted to stay part of a white European monoethnic club - which prioritises mostly white Europeans over other races and nationalities - you would want to stay in the EU where many nations are more than 99 per cent white. FOM was never an issue for Brits when it was with more diverse prosperous western European nations - it was adding poorer less diverse nations to the club that caused opposition to it to grow,
Singapore would of course merit being part of any Canzuk style Union on economic grounds and linguistic ones too as might Malaysia - but it has ASEAN and would frankly have no interest in it. When they have Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines as a source of young highly skilled labour they have would have no interest in importing Brits.
By contrast the current Canadian opposition leader is a Canzuk supporter as is the former PM of Australia and in some aspects the soon to be NZ Acting PM. When polled 82 per cent of New Zealanders, 75 per cent of Canadians and 70 per cent of Aussies supported it but only 58 per cent of Brits - and the Kiwis already of course have FOM with Australia. It's the Brits who seem least keen!
Canzuk won't go anywhere - but it merely highlights that if we are going to have freedom of movement it might actually be worth having it with countries which (a) actually have employment opportunities for young British people unlike much of the EU and (b) are actually places Brits would want to move to.
And when it comes to surveys - the top 3 nations Brits want to emigrate to are Australia, New Zealand and Canada!
I look forward to seeing wanted over in Bucharest on BBC daytime telly - but they seem more interested in wanted down under. Must be all those 'racists' at the Beeb!
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