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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Brexit in Name Only – BINO – or the BEANO!

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited February 5 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Brexit in Name Only – BINO – or the BEANO!

Thanks to Nicholas Leonard and Helen Cochrane.

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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 32,200
    First :D
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,657
    Unexpectedly second, like the New England Patriots.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,796
    And the Eagles win the Superbowl !!!!!!!!!!!
  • Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 179
    Wow, what a game!
  • May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    Compare and contrast May's political need to accomodate the rhetorical needs of the hard Brexiteers with HMGs practical and factual need to process customs transactions outside of a customs union. I know that many politicians made fools of themselves with 'project fear' on one side and "£350m" on the other. But it's not the politicians talking here it's the government service responsible, and they say the rhetoric is impossible in reality.

    We're heading for an avoidable economic heart attack. And it will be the end of the Tory Party
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,840



    We're heading for an avoidable economic heart attack. And it will be the end of the Tory Party

    I think you are right.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 32,200

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    Compare and contrast May's political need to accomodate the rhetorical needs of the hard Brexiteers with HMGs practical and factual need to process customs transactions outside of a customs union. I know that many politicians made fools of themselves with 'project fear' on one side and "£350m" on the other. But it's not the politicians talking here it's the government service responsible, and they say the rhetoric is impossible in reality.

    We're heading for an avoidable economic heart attack. And it will be the end of the Tory Party

    How long does the transition period cover? Sounds like HMRC are just pitching for more money to get it working.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,840
    RobD said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    Compare and contrast May's political need to accomodate the rhetorical needs of the hard Brexiteers with HMGs practical and factual need to process customs transactions outside of a customs union. I know that many politicians made fools of themselves with 'project fear' on one side and "£350m" on the other. But it's not the politicians talking here it's the government service responsible, and they say the rhetoric is impossible in reality.

    We're heading for an avoidable economic heart attack. And it will be the end of the Tory Party

    How long does the transition period cover? Sounds like HMRC are just pitching for more money to get it working.
    No it doesn't. It sounds like the government has completely left reality.
  • RobD said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    Compare and contrast May's political need to accomodate the rhetorical needs of the hard Brexiteers with HMGs practical and factual need to process customs transactions outside of a customs union. I know that many politicians made fools of themselves with 'project fear' on one side and "£350m" on the other. But it's not the politicians talking here it's the government service responsible, and they say the rhetoric is impossible in reality.

    We're heading for an avoidable economic heart attack. And it will be the end of the Tory Party

    How long does the transition period cover? Sounds like HMRC are just pitching for more money to get it working.
    Transition period is 20 months. HMRC aren't even being given sufficient money to test this new I adequate computer system, never mind build a big enough one, hire an army of inspectors, pave over Kent for truck parking...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 1,501
    edited February 5

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    May will continue to peddle this a/the Customs Union bullshit right up the second she gets ejected from No. 10. Which might be by the weekend on current form.


  • daodaodaodao Posts: 573
    There can't be any form of customs union with the EU, otherwise its BINO. The EU needs to regard its relations with the UK post Brexit like those with Russia, its other neighbouring antagonist, and have proper border controls for goods (including detailed customs checks) and people (including visa requirements).
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 14,812
    Dura_Ace said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    May will continue to peddle this a/the Customs Union bullshit right up the second she gets ejected from No. 10. Which might be by the weekend on current form.


    At which point, if the news is correct,, she will be succeeded by someone who also says we will leave the Customs Union. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
  • daodao said:

    There can't be any form of customs union with the EU, otherwise its BINO. The EU needs to regard its relations with the UK post Brexit like those with Russia, its other neighbouring antagonist, and have proper border controls for goods (including detailed customs checks) and people (including visa requirements).

    Very nice. And when the reality is that your preferred option can't be done? Your options:
    1. Delay Brexit until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    2. Extend the transition period until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    3. Do neither. Then be "surprised" when the system collapses quickly and "astonished" when Kent fills up with Lorries queuing for a broken border crossing and "who could have forecasted it" economic heart attack as cross border trade stops overnight.

    All the rhetoric and bullshit and spin doesn't matter in the real and practical world. Yes we know that WTO means we need proper border controls. The people responsible for border controls say it's impossible to be ready on your timescale.

    Should we listen to them? Or you? Who is the expert on HMRC resources and preparedness? It's head? Or you daodao?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820

    Dura_Ace said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    May will continue to peddle this a/the Customs Union bullshit right up the second she gets ejected from No. 10. Which might be by the weekend on current form.


    At which point, if the news is correct,, she will be succeeded by someone who also says we will leave the Customs Union. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
    No, that'll be the Nixon in China moment when the new leader spends some of their political capital accepting the inevitable - which May would do in an instant were her political capital not already completely expended.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,491



    We're heading for an avoidable economic heart attack. And it will be the end of the Tory Party

    I think you are right.
    so easy to be so negative about things... so easy to write hyperbolic bullshine
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,601
    Does this mean we can call people asking for a watered down, chocolate-fireguard form of Brexit as "BINOmials"?

    Much less emotive to say "Dominic Grieve, that well-known Brexit traitor BINOmial......"

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,050
    Never mind the Beano, the government needs some Viz Top Tips to help them sort out a Brexit deal.

    "When negotiating with Jonny Foreigners, I always find it useful to ignore everything they say"
    D Davis, Westminster
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 573
    edited February 5

    daodao said:

    There can't be any form of customs union with the EU, otherwise its BINO. The EU needs to regard its relations with the UK post Brexit like those with Russia, its other neighbouring antagonist, and have proper border controls for goods (including detailed customs checks) and people (including visa requirements).

    Very nice. And when the reality is that your preferred option can't be done? Your options:
    1. Delay Brexit until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    2. Extend the transition period until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    3. Do neither. Then be "surprised" when the system collapses quickly and "astonished" when Kent fills up with Lorries queuing for a broken border crossing and "who could have forecasted it" economic heart attack as cross border trade stops overnight.

    All the rhetoric and bullshit and spin doesn't matter in the real and practical world. Yes we know that WTO means we need proper border controls. The people responsible for border controls say it's impossible to be ready on your timescale.

    Should we listen to them? Or you? Who is the expert on HMRC resources and preparedness? It's head? Or you daodao?
    I did not state that the UK shouldn't try for a transition period, merely that the implication of remaining in any form of customs union with the EU long-term means BINO.

    I stated how the EU should regard the UK - it needs to inflict severe punishment pour encourager les autres, to ensure that the drive to ever closer union is not derailed - not how HMG should approach the issue. The EU needs to strangle the UK.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,840



    We're heading for an avoidable economic heart attack. And it will be the end of the Tory Party

    I think you are right.
    so easy to be so negative about things... so easy to write hyperbolic bullshine
    Exactly. The Europhobes have been doing it for years.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 14,812
    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    May will continue to peddle this a/the Customs Union bullshit right up the second she gets ejected from No. 10. Which might be by the weekend on current form.


    At which point, if the news is correct,, she will be succeeded by someone who also says we will leave the Customs Union. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
    No, that'll be the Nixon in China moment when the new leader spends some of their political capital accepting the inevitable - which May would do in an instant were her political capital not already completely expended.
    I am afraid you have seriously misjudged the mood if you think that will be the outcome.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,640
    edited February 5
    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,840
    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,439
    That we are still arguing about what our negotiating position ought to be after all this time is a mark of the utter failure of the government to come up with one. And there is no indication that will change.
  • PendduPenddu Posts: 139

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    ....and probably 50% of remainers.

    A consensus is possible if only someone would stand up and promote it!
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,179

    daodao said:

    There can't be any form of customs union with the EU, otherwise its BINO. The EU needs to regard its relations with the UK post Brexit like those with Russia, its other neighbouring antagonist, and have proper border controls for goods (including detailed customs checks) and people (including visa requirements).

    Very nice. And when the reality is that your preferred option can't be done? Your options:
    1. Delay Brexit until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    2. Extend the transition period until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    3. Do neither. Then be "surprised" when the system collapses quickly and "astonished" when Kent fills up with Lorries queuing for a broken border crossing and "who could have forecasted it" economic heart attack as cross border trade stops overnight.

    All the rhetoric and bullshit and spin doesn't matter in the real and practical world. Yes we know that WTO means we need proper border controls. The people responsible for border controls say it's impossible to be ready on your timescale.

    Should we listen to them? Or you? Who is the expert on HMRC resources and preparedness? It's head? Or you daodao?
    4. Delay customs union exit until 2023 but implement single market exit before then.
    5. Agree a deal that cuts 99% of tariffs like Canada does.
    6. Add more capacity to the system with the three year window.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,439

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    Even if it satisfied only 20% of leavers, that would probably mean the at least grudging support of a significant majority of the population - hence the increasing shrillness of the true believers.

  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,179
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    Even if it satisfied only 20% of leavers, that would probably mean the at least grudging support of a significant majority of the population - hence the increasing shrillness of the true believers.

    That's clearly not true. Remainers have already attacked the transition soft Brexit for being far worse than EU membership, so clearly they would be unsatisfied with a "BINO" that is harder than EEA membership.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,808
    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    The harder is to do the more important it is to do it. The more unattainable it is the more attractive it becomes.

    Keep prattling on about impending disaster and impossibility to leave the EU and you highlight the reason leavers want out, strengthening their resolve and belief that the EU is a suffocating blood sucking force for evil.

    A positive message (from either side) will win.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,343
    Mr Recidivist,

    BINO is probably the worst result for a peaceful coexistence between the tribes. Many people accept being outvoted; they may not like it, but it happens. But having the piss taken out of them by politicians who consider them stupid isn't a recipe for acceptance.

    Remember the expenses scandal. The money involved was negligible compared to the Government's daily spending, but the anger was about politician's thought processes.

    As here ... you plebs are stupid, you'll believe any old shit.

    Better to be up-front. We gave you a referendum, but we didn't mean it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,050
    I think it is fair to say that I was fairly well engaged in the Brexit Referendum debate. While the word "Single Market" were repeated over and over again, I can honesty say that I did not hear a single mention of the Customs Union until after we had voted. Now it is the most important matter in the whole negotiating process. Strange.
  • Elliot said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    Even if it satisfied only 20% of leavers, that would probably mean the at least grudging support of a significant majority of the population - hence the increasing shrillness of the true believers.

    That's clearly not true. Remainers have already attacked the transition soft Brexit for being far worse than EU membership, so clearly they would be unsatisfied with a "BINO" that is harder than EEA membership.
    Citation required.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    May will continue to peddle this a/the Customs Union bullshit right up the second she gets ejected from No. 10. Which might be by the weekend on current form.


    At which point, if the news is correct,, she will be succeeded by someone who also says we will leave the Customs Union. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
    No, that'll be the Nixon in China moment when the new leader spends some of their political capital accepting the inevitable - which May would do in an instant were her political capital not already completely expended.
    I am afraid you have seriously misjudged the mood if you think that will be the outcome.
    Lol. Whose 'mood'?

    The only way May can get to a sensible outcome, given her lack of authority, is to steer towards a disastrous one and wait for the outcry from business etc. to grow so strong that she is able to change tack at the last minute, once the Tory numbnuts are shown to be speaking for next-to-no-one. That is where we are heading.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,493
    The Venn diagram of outcomes that will satisfy the Conservative party and Parliament has a shrinking number of solutions in the overlap. It’s very doubtful whether any of those are capable of agreement with the EU. Hence Theresa May’s problem.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 8,004
    Nigelb said:

    That we are still arguing about what our negotiating position ought to be after all this time is a mark of the utter failure of the government to come up with one. And there is no indication that will change.

    Even worse, we have no settled, coherent position even after a general election ostensibly called specifically to win a mandate for Theresa May's specific vision of Brexit; after the triggering of Article 50 to start the countdown towards that goal.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,439

    The Venn diagram of outcomes that will satisfy the Conservative party and Parliament has a shrinking number of solutions in the overlap. It’s very doubtful whether any of those are capable of agreement with the EU. Hence Theresa May’s problem.

    There's an overlap ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 42,410
    Good morning, everyone.

    I preferred the Dandy as a child (my brother read the Beano). The Downing Street Kids are certainly up to endless mischief.

    On female leaders who might be about to leave the stage, the Germans need to decide whether they're having a coalition or elections. And next month we have both the Italian and Russian elections. I, for one, am keen to see what winning percentage Putin achieves.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,179

    Elliot said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    Even if it satisfied only 20% of leavers, that would probably mean the at least grudging support of a significant majority of the population - hence the increasing shrillness of the true believers.

    That's clearly not true. Remainers have already attacked the transition soft Brexit for being far worse than EU membership, so clearly they would be unsatisfied with a "BINO" that is harder than EEA membership.
    Citation required.
    Go and check most Remain-dominant politics internet forums for the two weeks after the interim deal was struck. It was all "so we will be a vassal state taking rules without voting rights - I hate Tories". Unreconciled Remainers hate Brexit in all its forms. They will argue to soften and soften it, and then, should a soft deal be signed, will decry it for being worse than EU membership and giving none of the benefits of leaving.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,520

    Good morning, everyone.

    I preferred the Dandy as a child (my brother read the Beano). The Downing Street Kids are certainly up to endless mischief.

    On female leaders who might be about to leave the stage, the Germans need to decide whether they're having a coalition or elections. And next month we have both the Italian and Russian elections. I, for one, am keen to see what winning percentage Putin achieves.

    You think he's going to win? That's a bit of a longshot, isn't it? ... ;)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,612

    Never mind the Beano, the government needs some Viz Top Tips to help them sort out a Brexit deal.

    "When negotiating with Jonny Foreigners, I always find it useful to ignore everything they say"
    D Davis, Westminster

    You need to work on the syntax

    Top Tips : Remainers , pretend you have won the EU referendum by telling everyone incessantly spurious reasons why we can’t leave.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 42,410
    Mr. Jessop, never let it be said that Morris Dancer is afraid of backing the long shots.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,050

    Nigelb said:

    That we are still arguing about what our negotiating position ought to be after all this time is a mark of the utter failure of the government to come up with one. And there is no indication that will change.

    Even worse, we have no settled, coherent position even after a general election ostensibly called specifically to win a mandate for Theresa May's specific vision of Brexit; after the triggering of Article 50 to start the countdown towards that goal.
    Credit where it is due, the Brexit Cabinet are going to devote 4 hours this week to deciding what sort of Brexit they want. That's longer than most people spend on deciding to buy a new house, so more than ample.
  • Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    Even if it satisfied only 20% of leavers, that would probably mean the at least grudging support of a significant majority of the population - hence the increasing shrillness of the true believers.

    That's clearly not true. Remainers have already attacked the transition soft Brexit for being far worse than EU membership, so clearly they would be unsatisfied with a "BINO" that is harder than EEA membership.
    Citation required.
    Go and check most Remain-dominant politics internet forums for the two weeks after the interim deal was struck. It was all "so we will be a vassal state taking rules without voting rights - I hate Tories". Unreconciled Remainers hate Brexit in all its forms. They will argue to soften and soften it, and then, should a soft deal be signed, will decry it for being worse than EU membership and giving none of the benefits of leaving.
    So you’re not able to provide any evidence/links.

    Noted.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,652

    I think it is fair to say that I was fairly well engaged in the Brexit Referendum debate. While the word "Single Market" were repeated over and over again, I can honesty say that I did not hear a single mention of the Customs Union until after we had voted. Now it is the most important matter in the whole negotiating process. Strange.

    I can remember lots of debates where Leavers said it would be great to make our own trade deals and Remainers replied by saying Britain is too weak and crap to make good ones (I paraphrase). Remainers never challenged the principle that leaving the EU would mean an independent trade policy though, now they keep spouting this 'we didn't vote to leave the Customs Union' BS.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 4,064
    Elliot said:

    Unreconciled Remainers hate Brexit in all its forms. They will argue to soften and soften it, and then, should a soft deal be signed, will decry it for being worse than EU membership and giving none of the benefits of leaving.

    That sounds about right to me. There is nothing good about any form of Brexit, so why should I like it? As for the Tories, they appear to be in thrall to the deluded, xenophobic wing of their party so why should I vote for them?

    What a pity Labour is being run by a Chuckle Brothers version of Marx and Lenin and the Lib Dems appear to have vanished without trace.

    Basically, It's Not Optimal (BINO) :)
  • FattyBolgerFattyBolger Posts: 299


    BINO is probably the worst result for a peaceful coexistence between the tribes. Many people accept being outvoted; they may not like it, but it happens. But having the piss taken out of them by politicians who consider them stupid isn't a recipe for acceptance.

    Remember the expenses scandal. The money involved was negligible compared to the Government's daily spending, but the anger was about politician's thought processes.

    As here ... you plebs are stupid, you'll believe any old shit.

    Better to be up-front. We gave you a referendum, but we didn't mean it.

    †************

    Absolutely agree with this. See also Mr Cameron's "Deal"
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 311
    All this talk about leaving/not being in the customs union - how does the Ireland issue sit within it. Surely N Ireland will need to be in the customs union to maintain its arrangements with Dublin - is this yet another fudge,,,,,,,
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,075
    Is anyone going to act to save the hostage held captive in no10.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,640
    philiph said:

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    The harder is to do the more important it is to do it. The more unattainable it is the more attractive it becomes.

    Keep prattling on about impending disaster and impossibility to leave the EU and you highlight the reason leavers want out, strengthening their resolve and belief that the EU is a suffocating blood sucking force for evil.

    A positive message (from either side) will win.
    In this case, positive messages won't win. It's about engaging with practicalities. George Bush had a positive message about Iraq. It cut no ice. It's the same here. There isn't an outcome acceptable to the bulk of the population that doesn't involve the UK in close alignment with the European Union, on their terms. Bear in mind the referendum was won on the promise that it wouldn't be hard to do, at all. Even so it was a tiny margin and over half the people now think it a mistake. Leavers who want some kind of success should proceed with caution.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,483
    Morning all,

    Another day of rows over Brexit. I do wonder what the main argument of the day would be if we didn't have this. NHS probably. Hunt is lucky in some respects.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,296

    Good morning, everyone.

    I preferred the Dandy as a child (my brother read the Beano). The Downing Street Kids are certainly up to endless mischief.

    On female leaders who might be about to leave the stage, the Germans need to decide whether they're having a coalition or elections. And next month we have both the Italian and Russian elections. I, for one, am keen to see what winning percentage Putin achieves.

    Turnout in Russia will be interesting.
  • Elliot said:

    daodao said:

    There can't be any form of customs union with the EU, otherwise its BINO. The EU needs to regard its relations with the UK post Brexit like those with Russia, its other neighbouring antagonist, and have proper border controls for goods (including detailed customs checks) and people (including visa requirements).

    Very nice. And when the reality is that your preferred option can't be done? Your options:
    1. Delay Brexit until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    2. Extend the transition period until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    3. Do neither. Then be "surprised" when the system collapses quickly and "astonished" when Kent fills up with Lorries queuing for a broken border crossing and "who could have forecasted it" economic heart attack as cross border trade stops overnight.

    All the rhetoric and bullshit and spin doesn't matter in the real and practical world. Yes we know that WTO means we need proper border controls. The people responsible for border controls say it's impossible to be ready on your timescale.

    Should we listen to them? Or you? Who is the expert on HMRC resources and preparedness? It's head? Or you daodao?
    4. Delay customs union exit until 2023 but implement single market exit before then.
    5. Agree a deal that cuts 99% of tariffs like Canada does.
    6. Add more capacity to the system with the three year window.
    4 isn't accceptable to the Tory headbangers
    5 isn't achievable in the timescale - our diplomats have been crystal clear about the (lack of) realism from headbangers
    6 see point 4

    Would love to hear the answer to how we retain the Common Travel Area and leave the Customs Union...
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,685
    Essexit said:

    I think it is fair to say that I was fairly well engaged in the Brexit Referendum debate. While the word "Single Market" were repeated over and over again, I can honesty say that I did not hear a single mention of the Customs Union until after we had voted. Now it is the most important matter in the whole negotiating process. Strange.

    I can remember lots of debates where Leavers said it would be great to make our own trade deals and Remainers replied by saying Britain is too weak and crap to make good ones (I paraphrase). Remainers never challenged the principle that leaving the EU would mean an independent trade policy though, now they keep spouting this 'we didn't vote to leave the Customs Union' BS.
    The reality of the general acceptance of Brexit must be shocking to hard Remainers.

    And the realisation that they're so out of step with the British people.

    It's no wonder they've been behind the running at almost every stage. And pinning hopes on Hail Mary passes (remember James Chapman?).

    The latest wheeze seems to be calling leaving the single market and the Customs union BINO, which is hilaripus, given it was called hard Brexit until recently. If it helps the discombobulated come to terms with it, why should we worry. Rejoice; we're leaving....
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,640
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    Even if it satisfied only 20% of leavers, that would probably mean the at least grudging support of a significant majority of the population - hence the increasing shrillness of the true believers.

    That's clearly not true. Remainers have already attacked the transition soft Brexit for being far worse than EU membership, so clearly they would be unsatisfied with a "BINO" that is harder than EEA membership.
    Citation required.
    Go and check most Remain-dominant politics internet forums for the two weeks after the interim deal was struck. It was all "so we will be a vassal state taking rules without voting rights - I hate Tories". Unreconciled Remainers hate Brexit in all its forms. They will argue to soften and soften it, and then, should a soft deal be signed, will decry it for being worse than EU membership and giving none of the benefits of leaving.
    Any Brexit outcome is a downgrade on what we had before. It's what it is. If you stop membership of an organisation, you lose the benefits of membership. It's how membership organisations keep going. We are leaving the EU because we voted to do so. Whether it actually is a good thing is neither here nor there.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,483

    Elliot said:

    daodao said:

    There can't be any form of customs union with the EU, otherwise its BINO. The EU needs to regard its relations with the UK post Brexit like those with Russia, its other neighbouring antagonist, and have proper border controls for goods (including detailed customs checks) and people (including visa requirements).

    Very nice. And when the reality is that your preferred option can't be done? Your options:
    1. Delay Brexit until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    2. Extend the transition period until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    3. Do neither. Then be "surprised" when the system collapses quickly and "astonished" when Kent fills up with Lorries queuing for a broken border crossing and "who could have forecasted it" economic heart attack as cross border trade stops overnight.

    All the rhetoric and bullshit and spin doesn't matter in the real and practical world. Yes we know that WTO means we need proper border controls. The people responsible for border controls say it's impossible to be ready on your timescale.

    Should we listen to them? Or you? Who is the expert on HMRC resources and preparedness? It's head? Or you daodao?
    4. Delay customs union exit until 2023 but implement single market exit before then.
    5. Agree a deal that cuts 99% of tariffs like Canada does.
    6. Add more capacity to the system with the three year window.
    4 isn't accceptable to the Tory headbangers
    5 isn't achievable in the timescale - our diplomats have been crystal clear about the (lack of) realism from headbangers
    6 see point 4

    Would love to hear the answer to how we retain the Common Travel Area and leave the Customs Union...
    Tory headbangers don't have a majority in Parliament. At some point May is going to have to make use of that majority and splinter her own party. I see no other way.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,018
    Terrible story of a man dying from diabetes - wife claims he missed hospital apppontments because work would fine him:
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/05/courier-who-was-fined-for-day-off-to-see-doctor-dies-from-diabetes

    “DPD uses around 5,000 self-employed couriers. They are under pressure to deliver parcels to restricted time slots, must wear a uniform, hire a DPD liveried van and not work for any other courier company. MPs and unions have argued that these strict conditions mean they are bogusly self-employed and should be treated as employed workers.”

    We have got to sort out the gig economy so that it is fair for workers.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 42,410
    edited February 5
    Mr. Bolger, I agree. As well as the terms of a deal itself, the consequences on domestic politics must be considered.

    Half-in, half-out, with the price of membership but lacking the rights of either membership or independence is a recipe to turn the polarised political situation into trench warfare.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. 86, any thoughts on that?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,483
    FT on JRM:

    "The party — in fact, the country — has rarely felt so ripe for capture."

    https://www.ft.com/content/68f02dfc-099d-11e8-8eb7-42f857ea9f09

    Still available at 6 on BF.
  • Elliot said:

    daodao said:

    There can't be any form of customs union with the EU, otherwise its BINO. The EU needs to regard its relations with the UK post Brexit like those with Russia, its other neighbouring antagonist, and have proper border controls for goods (including detailed customs checks) and people (including visa requirements).

    Very nice. And when the reality is that your preferred option can't be done? Your options:
    1. Delay Brexit until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    2. Extend the transition period until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    3. Do neither. Then be "surprised" when the system collapses quickly and "astonished" when Kent fills up with Lorries queuing for a broken border crossing and "who could have forecasted it" economic heart attack as cross border trade stops overnight.

    All the rhetoric and bullshit and spin doesn't matter in the real and practical world. Yes we know that WTO means we need proper border controls. The people responsible for border controls say it's impossible to be ready on your timescale.

    Should we listen to them? Or you? Who is the expert on HMRC resources and preparedness? It's head? Or you daodao?
    4. Delay customs union exit until 2023 but implement single market exit before then.
    5. Agree a deal that cuts 99% of tariffs like Canada does.
    6. Add more capacity to the system with the three year window.
    4 isn't accceptable to the Tory headbangers
    5 isn't achievable in the timescale - our diplomats have been crystal clear about the (lack of) realism from headbangers
    6 see point 4

    Would love to hear the answer to how we retain the Common Travel Area and leave the Customs Union...
    Tory headbangers don't have a majority in Parliament. At some point May is going to have to make use of that majority and splinter her own party. I see no other way.
    She seems more focused on preventing letters into the '22. Not a majority in parliament but a majority of her attention
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,685

    Elliot said:

    daodao said:

    There can't be any form of customs union with the EU, otherwise its BINO. The EU needs to regard its relations with the UK post Brexit like those with Russia, its other neighbouring antagonist, and have proper border controls for goods (including detailed customs checks) and people (including visa requirements).

    Very nice. And when the reality is that your preferred option can't be done? Your options:
    1. Delay Brexit until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    2. Extend the transition period until 2023 allowing the UK to be ready for WTO
    3. Do neither. Then be "surprised" when the system collapses quickly and "astonished" when Kent fills up with Lorries queuing for a broken border crossing and "who could have forecasted it" economic heart attack as cross border trade stops overnight.

    All the rhetoric and bullshit and spin doesn't matter in the real and practical world. Yes we know that WTO means we need proper border controls. The people responsible for border controls say it's impossible to be ready on your timescale.

    Should we listen to them? Or you? Who is the expert on HMRC resources and preparedness? It's head? Or you daodao?
    4. Delay customs union exit until 2023 but implement single market exit before then.
    5. Agree a deal that cuts 99% of tariffs like Canada does.
    6. Add more capacity to the system with the three year window.
    4 isn't accceptable to the Tory headbangers
    5 isn't achievable in the timescale - our diplomats have been crystal clear about the (lack of) realism from headbangers
    6 see point 4

    Would love to hear the answer to how we retain the Common Travel Area and leave the Customs Union...
    Tory headbangers don't have a majority in Parliament. At some point May is going to have to make use of that majority and splinter her own party. I see no other way.
    Nope, because then she gets replaced.

    I'm still staggered that Remainer MPs don't realise that they have no power to determine the type of Brexit.
  • Apparently Tory MPs are handing empty envelopes to Sir Graham Brady just to wind him up.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,296

    Mr. Bolger, I agree. As well as the terms of a deal itself, the consequences on domestic politics must be considered.

    Half-in, half-out, with the price of membership but lacking the rights of either membership or independence is a recipe to turn the polarised political situation into trench warfare.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. 86, any thoughts on that?

    Not really, but if you weren’t enamoured with Putin, abstaining would seem like a sensible course of action (in terms of politics, it might not be in the individual’s best interests!).
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,685

    Apparently Tory MPs are handing empty envelopes to Sir Graham Brady just to wind him up.

    Yeh that was in the times on Saturday :)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,415
    Nigelb said:

    That we are still arguing about what our negotiating position ought to be after all this time is a mark of the utter failure of the government to come up with one. And there is no indication that will change.

    Or that they are not telling people...

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,415

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    May will continue to peddle this a/the Customs Union bullshit right up the second she gets ejected from No. 10. Which might be by the weekend on current form.


    At which point, if the news is correct,, she will be succeeded by someone who also says we will leave the Customs Union. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
    No, that'll be the Nixon in China moment when the new leader spends some of their political capital accepting the inevitable - which May would do in an instant were her political capital not already completely expended.
    I am afraid you have seriously misjudged the mood if you think that will be the outcome.
    Can you tell me what the disadvantages of being in”a” (not the) Customs Union are?

    As I see it you have to accept European standards for goods sold into Europe (but you’d need to do that anyway), and there is country of origin paperwork. What are the other disadvantages that make it so bad?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 42,410
    Mr. Eagles, those tinkers.

    Mr. 86, indeed.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,415

    I think it is fair to say that I was fairly well engaged in the Brexit Referendum debate. While the word "Single Market" were repeated over and over again, I can honesty say that I did not hear a single mention of the Customs Union until after we had voted. Now it is the most important matter in the whole negotiating process. Strange.

    Because the remainders/media class have lost the argument on the Single Market and this is their next redoubt
  • I asked this last night and no one answered.

    How do we reconcile last night’s statement about no customs union and Mrs May saying there’ll be no hard border in Ireland?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,483
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    May will continue to peddle this a/the Customs Union bullshit right up the second she gets ejected from No. 10. Which might be by the weekend on current form.


    At which point, if the news is correct,, she will be succeeded by someone who also says we will leave the Customs Union. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
    No, that'll be the Nixon in China moment when the new leader spends some of their political capital accepting the inevitable - which May would do in an instant were her political capital not already completely expended.
    I am afraid you have seriously misjudged the mood if you think that will be the outcome.
    Can you tell me what the disadvantages of being in”a” (not the) Customs Union are?

    As I see it you have to accept European standards for goods sold into Europe (but you’d need to do that anyway), and there is country of origin paperwork. What are the other disadvantages that make it so bad?
    Won't there be massive chaos and delays at the ports without some form of customs union?

    If there is no fresh food on the shelves then we are looking at civil unrest.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,685
    Charles said:

    I think it is fair to say that I was fairly well engaged in the Brexit Referendum debate. While the word "Single Market" were repeated over and over again, I can honesty say that I did not hear a single mention of the Customs Union until after we had voted. Now it is the most important matter in the whole negotiating process. Strange.

    Because the remainders/media class have lost the argument on the Single Market and this is their next redoubt
    It is fascinating to see the stages of grief that the media class are grappling with, and how it has seriously stymied their opposition.

    We've discussed the CU (and membership thereof) here for well over a year.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,428

    Apparently Tory MPs are handing empty envelopes to Sir Graham Brady just to wind him up.

    That's not funny at all. At all, do you hear me?

    If they'd hung on, they could have put Valentines cards in the envelopes.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 14,812
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    May will continue to peddle this a/the Customs Union bullshit right up the second she gets ejected from No. 10. Which might be by the weekend on current form.


    At which point, if the news is correct,, she will be succeeded by someone who also says we will leave the Customs Union. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
    No, that'll be the Nixon in China moment when the new leader spends some of their political capital accepting the inevitable - which May would do in an instant were her political capital not already completely expended.
    I am afraid you have seriously misjudged the mood if you think that will be the outcome.
    Can you tell me what the disadvantages of being in”a” (not the) Customs Union are?

    As I see it you have to accept European standards for goods sold into Europe (but you’d need to do that anyway), and there is country of origin paperwork. What are the other disadvantages that make it so bad?
    Being in *The* Customs Union means one is unable to run ones own trade policy and negotiate ones own trade deals. Whether this applies to every customs union is debatable but certainly Turkey - whi are in *a* customs union with the EU but not in *The* Customs Union are not able to make their own trade deals.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,685

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    May will continue to peddle this a/the Customs Union bullshit right up the second she gets ejected from No. 10. Which might be by the weekend on current form.


    At which point, if the news is correct,, she will be succeeded by someone who also says we will leave the Customs Union. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
    No, that'll be the Nixon in China moment when the new leader spends some of their political capital accepting the inevitable - which May would do in an instant were her political capital not already completely expended.
    I am afraid you have seriously misjudged the mood if you think that will be the outcome.
    Can you tell me what the disadvantages of being in”a” (not the) Customs Union are?

    As I see it you have to accept European standards for goods sold into Europe (but you’d need to do that anyway), and there is country of origin paperwork. What are the other disadvantages that make it so bad?
    Won't there be massive chaos and delays at the ports without some form of customs union?

    If there is no fresh food on the shelves then we are looking at civil unrest.
    Because we don't import food from outside of Europe now?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,018
    Charles said:

    I think it is fair to say that I was fairly well engaged in the Brexit Referendum debate. While the word "Single Market" were repeated over and over again, I can honesty say that I did not hear a single mention of the Customs Union until after we had voted. Now it is the most important matter in the whole negotiating process. Strange.

    Because the remainders/media class have lost the argument on the Single Market and this is their next redoubt
    If the statement from #10 is anything to go by - the Remainer fightback on the customs union lasted about 24 hours. We are leaving that too apparently - although I suppose we will stay in for the transition period.
  • Mr. Eagles, those tinkers.

    Mr. 86, indeed.

    If I was a Tory MP I’d be causing havoc.

    Giving Sir Graham Brady an envelope with messages for Mrs May like

    ‘Se should get to know the party’

    Or

    ‘Nick Timothy is a twat’
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 4,064

    I asked this last night and no one answered.

    How do we reconcile last night’s statement about no customs union and Mrs May saying there’ll be no hard border in Ireland?

    We cannot reconcile them. That is why no Leaver has an answer for it.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,018

    I asked this last night and no one answered.

    How do we reconcile last night’s statement about no customs union and Mrs May saying there’ll be no hard border in Ireland?

    She’s going to shaft the DUP.

    Maybe she will call an early general election to win a majority?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,179

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    May rules out any customs union. Has she spoken to HMRC? They state their new customs system which goes live early next year can cope with just 60% of WTO transactions. They also state it would take them 5 years to be ready to cope with WTO.

    May will continue to peddle this a/the Customs Union bullshit right up the second she gets ejected from No. 10. Which might be by the weekend on current form.


    At which point, if the news is correct,, she will be succeeded by someone who also says we will leave the Customs Union. Not sure what point you are trying to make.
    No, that'll be the Nixon in China moment when the new leader spends some of their political capital accepting the inevitable - which May would do in an instant were her political capital not already completely expended.
    I am afraid you have seriously misjudged the mood if you think that will be the outcome.
    Can you tell me what the disadvantages of being in”a” (not the) Customs Union are?

    As I see it you have to accept European standards for goods sold into Europe (but you’d need to do that anyway), and there is country of origin paperwork. What are the other disadvantages that make it so bad?
    Being in *The* Customs Union means one is unable to run ones own trade policy and negotiate ones own trade deals. Whether this applies to every customs union is debatable but certainly Turkey - whi are in *a* customs union with the EU but not in *The* Customs Union are not able to make their own trade deals.
    I can see a version of a customs union that allows you to make free trade deals in services elsewhere. The problem is that such deals would be great for the UK, but not for most emerging economies.

    The sensible thing seems to be a staggered transition, with exit of the single market and customs union at different times.
  • rkrkrk said:

    I asked this last night and no one answered.

    How do we reconcile last night’s statement about no customs union and Mrs May saying there’ll be no hard border in Ireland?

    She’s going to shaft the DUP.

    Maybe she will call an early general election to win a majority?
    Good.

    She should drive those God bothering homophobes into the sea.
  • Somebody’s off for some re-education lessons.

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 4,064

    rkrkrk said:

    I asked this last night and no one answered.

    How do we reconcile last night’s statement about no customs union and Mrs May saying there’ll be no hard border in Ireland?

    She’s going to shaft the DUP.

    Maybe she will call an early general election to win a majority?
    Good.

    She should drive those God bothering homophobes into the sea.
    Givdn the parliamentary arithmetic, the DUP tail can wag the Tory dog. The DUP could withdraw their support and leave her even weaker than she is now.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,840
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    Even if it satisfied only 20% of leavers, that would probably mean the at least grudging support of a significant majority of the population - hence the increasing shrillness of the true believers.

    That's clearly not true. Remainers have already attacked the transition soft Brexit for being far worse than EU membership, so clearly they would be unsatisfied with a "BINO" that is harder than EEA membership.
    Citation required.
    Go and check most Remain-dominant politics internet forums for the two weeks after the interim deal was struck. It was all "so we will be a vassal state taking rules without voting rights - I hate Tories". Unreconciled Remainers hate Brexit in all its forms. They will argue to soften and soften it, and then, should a soft deal be signed, will decry it for being worse than EU membership and giving none of the benefits of leaving.
    It will be worse than EU membership and won't give any of the very few benefits of leaving. There is an obvious option that gets around this.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 1,478
    edited February 5
    No customs union – good. But better still to abolish customs duties all round.
    If the EU then wants to keep tariffs it's they who will be responsible for the border in Ireland.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 42,410
    Mr. Recidivist, invade France?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,493
    I enjoyed the cartoon.

    Remarkable to see the Leavers on the site making great claims about Remainers having lost the argument, even as the polls show that the public remain completely unconvinced that the decision to leave the EU was the right one. They should stop talking to each other and start listening to the public.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 5,940

    Somebody’s off for some re-education lessons.

    The first crack in the Sturgeons polical armour within the SNP?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,685

    I enjoyed the cartoon.

    Remarkable to see the Leavers on the site making great claims about Remainers having lost the argument, even as the polls show that the public remain completely unconvinced that the decision to leave the EU was the right one. They should stop talking to each other and start listening to the public.

    And yet very few want to overturn it. Because they accept that Remainers lost.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,718
    geoffw said:

    No customs union – good. But better still to abolish customs duties all round.
    If the EU then wants to keep tariffs it's they who will be responsible for the border in Ireland.

    Taking back control: one open border at a time.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 42,410
    F1: Ladbrokes has some race wins/pole positions specials up. Ferrari, particularly Raikkonen, *might* be value, but it's not clear. Not backing anything just at the moment.
  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 283
    Can any brexiter on here explain the trade deal that they would want the uk to make and how it would make them personally richer. As with the boss of Astra Zeneca I can see directly how leaving the MDR European medical device regulation will cost me money. My question is who pays for this. Will the government subsidise my extra costs or will I have to put up my prices to the NHS to cover them? So many questions so few answers.

    As for new trade deals I am at a loss to think of one my company needs. Our devices are too expensive mostly for India and China and being under USA fda direct control scares me.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,075
    Isn't pretty seeing May used as a human shield.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,493
    Mortimer said:

    I enjoyed the cartoon.

    Remarkable to see the Leavers on the site making great claims about Remainers having lost the argument, even as the polls show that the public remain completely unconvinced that the decision to leave the EU was the right one. They should stop talking to each other and start listening to the public.

    And yet very few want to overturn it. Because they accept that Remainers lost.
    There's a big difference between accepting that Remain lost (which I do) and signing up for every la-la plan that the swivel-eyed nut-nuts tell us is essential because anything else is "BINO".
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 1,501
    So what are everyone's plans for B-Day next March? (If it happens). I imagine for the site's Leavers it will be autoerotic asphyxiation followed by a meat pie. Mrs DA wants to go on a cruise next year and I definitely don't but I might relent so I'm not around for the Final Victory when JRM rides a dragon down the Mall.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 10,551

    I asked this last night and no one answered.

    How do we reconcile last night’s statement about no customs union and Mrs May saying there’ll be no hard border in Ireland?

    Because the UK border agencies are so incompetent that they couldn't put up a hard border if they were told to do so ?

    But I 'm a bit baffled as to why the DUP oppose a hard border with the South in any case ? Aren't they normally in favour of keeping the South out and as their own constituencies aren't along the border they wouldn't be inconvenienced as much either.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 3,818
    Morning all :)

    On the customs union, it's the inevitable consequence if we want to strike the most advantageous possible trade deals outside the EU. If we were to remain within the customs union with the EU, wouldn't that by definition affect the terms of any future trade deals we could strike with the likes of the US, China or India ?

    Clearly, the May Government believes (or wants to believe) an independent UK fully removed from the EU can seek better trade deals than has so far been achieved as part of the EU.

    We'll see.

    Meanwhile and on a huge tangent, a classic example of the kind of things you can find in a $10 filing cabinet:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/about/backstory/news-coverage/2018-02-03/the-cabinet-files-and-how-they-were-found/9393008

    Interesting to see the Turnbull Government, regrettably in common with many other so-called democratic Governments, seeking to clamp down even further on access to information in the light of WikiLeaks. Whither (or indeed wither) accountability ?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,415
    FF43 said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    Even if it satisfied only 20% of leavers, that would probably mean the at least grudging support of a significant majority of the population - hence the increasing shrillness of the true believers.

    That's clearly not true. Remainers have already attacked the transition soft Brexit for being far worse than EU membership, so clearly they would be unsatisfied with a "BINO" that is harder than EEA membership.
    Citation required.
    Go and check most Remain-dominant politics internet forums for the two weeks after the interim deal was struck. It was all "so we will be a vassal state taking rules without voting rights - I hate Tories". Unreconciled Remainers hate Brexit in all its forms. They will argue to soften and soften it, and then, should a soft deal be signed, will decry it for being worse than EU membership and giving none of the benefits of leaving.
    Any Brexit outcome is a downgrade on what we had before. It's what it is. If you stop membership of an organisation, you lose the benefits of membership. It's how membership organisations keep going. We are leaving the EU because we voted to do so. Whether it actually is a good thing is neither here nor there.
    Only if you purely look at economics. That’s what Remainers got wrong
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,179

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    Even if it satisfied only 20% of leavers, that would probably mean the at least grudging support of a significant majority of the population - hence the increasing shrillness of the true believers.

    That's clearly not true. Remainers have already attacked the transition soft Brexit for being far worse than EU membership, so clearly they would be unsatisfied with a "BINO" that is harder than EEA membership.
    Citation required.
    Go and check most Remain-dominant politics internet forums for the two weeks after the interim deal was struck. It was all "so we will be a vassal state taking rules without voting rights - I hate Tories". Unreconciled Remainers hate Brexit in all its forms. They will argue to soften and soften it, and then, should a soft deal be signed, will decry it for being worse than EU membership and giving none of the benefits of leaving.
    It will be worse than EU membership and won't give any of the very few benefits of leaving. There is an obvious option that gets around this.
    You and Beverley have demonstrated the evidence that TSE was asking. A BINO does not satisfy either side so she needs to choose between a clearer Brexit or ignoring the referendum result.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,917
    edited February 5

    Somebody’s off for some re-education lessons.

    The first crack in the Sturgeons polical armour within the SNP?
    Maybe.

    Sturgeon's a bit lucky that people haven't much focussed that in the last two years, the SNP have made net seat losses at Holyrood*, in council seats, and of course at Westminster (although they do have 29 more MPs now than when Nicola Sturgeon became leader)

    *Like Theresa May she lost someone else's majority.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 12,718
    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Third Brexit thread in a row! BINO is the only form of Brexit that will sort of work, on the basis that Leavers really care about symbols and are somewhat superficial*, while Remainers want the status quo to continue as much as possible and are prepared to sacrifice THEIR symbols.

    " Some Leavers are superficial; some aren't. Superficial Leavers would need to make common cause with pragmatic Remainers because they actually do want it to work. Even so, Brexit will be damaging.

    That's right. BINO is probably enough to satisfy 90% of leavers.
    Even if it satisfied only 20% of leavers, that would probably mean the at least grudging support of a significant majority of the population - hence the increasing shrillness of the true believers.

    That's clearly not true. Remainers have already attacked the transition soft Brexit for being far worse than EU membership, so clearly they would be unsatisfied with a "BINO" that is harder than EEA membership.
    Citation required.
    Go and check most Remain-dominant politics internet forums for the two weeks after the interim deal was struck. It was all "so we will be a vassal state taking rules without voting rights - I hate Tories". Unreconciled Remainers hate Brexit in all its forms. They will argue to soften and soften it, and then, should a soft deal be signed, will decry it for being worse than EU membership and giving none of the benefits of leaving.
    Any Brexit outcome is a downgrade on what we had before. It's what it is. If you stop membership of an organisation, you lose the benefits of membership. It's how membership organisations keep going. We are leaving the EU because we voted to do so. Whether it actually is a good thing is neither here nor there.
    Only if you purely look at economics. That’s what Remainers got wrong
    Blimmin heck, make up your mind: will there be a Brexit bonus, or is the cost of Brexit a price worth paying?
This discussion has been closed.