Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Remember this cringe making TMay effort from GE17?

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited February 7 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Remember this cringe making TMay effort from GE17?

If any CON MPs is still deciding whether or not to send Graham Brady a letter then they should check the above TMay “news conference” from the closing stages of the GE2017 campaign.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010
    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010
    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,472

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    Anna Soubry would make good LD leader
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    +1

    The LibDems are just treading water under Vince, and this won't change. Meanwhile there ought to be a tremendous opportunity arising from the circumstances set out in the lead.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,296
    edited February 7
    Thread Headline :

    "Big mistake for LAB to assume that the Tories will be piss-poor again"

    Or .... Big mistake for PB to assume that the Tories will even achieve the dizzying heights of awfulness as 2017.

    Now there really is a thought .. :hushed: :smiley:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,657
    Can’t we just get rid of all the politicians and find another lot? All the parties’ leaderships are just as crap as each other at the moment.

    My consolation is that Mrs May doesn’t have an obvious replacement that would be any better, and at least it’s not my party’s leaders hanging out with the antisemites.


  • Anna Soubry would make good LD leader

    Agreed. If only she'd cross over... It'll not happen though no matter how much I wish it to.

    What I always find most impressive about Anna Soubry is that she never tries to duck or dodge answering any question put to her even if it's going to be uncomfortable for herself or for her own side. That's a quality almost extinct in politics now. Indeed, she takes great care to ensure that she answers questions fully, she communicates her opinions very clearly and she thinks at lightning speed. She's also a very natural and entertaining orator.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010
    JackW said:

    Thread Headline :

    "Big mistake for LAB to assume that the Tories will be piss-poor again"

    Or .... Big mistake for PB to assume that the Tories will even achieve the dizzying heights of awfulness as 2017.

    Now there really is a thought .. :hushed: :smiley:

    Nice to see you posting Jack. Question on the previous thread about who was the current Stuart claimant to the British throne. Don't know if you saw it.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,727
    Meanwhile, let's hope that a gang of patriotic peasants from Somerset will fling dollops of dung at Anna Soubry so that she will be correctively re-educated and realise the error of her saboteur deviation.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,657
    IanB2 said:

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    +1

    The LibDems are just treading water under Vince, and this won't change. Meanwhile there ought to be a tremendous opportunity arising from the circumstances set out in the lead.
    It’s not just that they’re treading water, it’s that (one local by-election aside) they’re completely invisible. As far as I can tell there’s been no policy announcements, no news headlines and no key interviews for the last six months.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 32,200
    The plan to secure Corbyn in his position is going well... :smiley:
  • First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    +1

    The LibDems are just treading water under Vince, and this won't change. Meanwhile there ought to be a tremendous opportunity arising from the circumstances set out in the lead.
    It’s not just that they’re treading water, it’s that (one local by-election aside) they’re completely invisible. As far as I can tell there’s been no policy announcements, no news headlines and no key interviews for the last six months.
    According to the last Private Eye I saw they've major staff shortages in the Press Office.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,296

    JackW said:

    Thread Headline :

    "Big mistake for LAB to assume that the Tories will be piss-poor again"

    Or .... Big mistake for PB to assume that the Tories will even achieve the dizzying heights of awfulness as 2017.

    Now there really is a thought .. :hushed: :smiley:

    Nice to see you posting Jack. Question on the previous thread about who was the current Stuart claimant to the British throne. Don't know if you saw it.
    Thank you.

    The Stuart line is presently held by Frank, Duke of Bavaria, who is unmarried and will be succeeded by his younger brother.

    On the death of Henry IX in 1807 the male line was extinguished and the claim passed to the House of Savoy through the line of the youngest daughter of Charles I - Henrietta Anne. No senior line Stuart has made a claim to the throne since 1807.
  • First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
  • Mrs May has elevated the avoidance of answering the question to an art form. She seems to have a pre-arranged mini-speech locked into her mind which she doggedly trots out whatever the question. It's so transparent that even casual observers and non-Mayhaters, like me, can;t fail to notice.

    Maybe she knows that however bad it may sound, it's better than actually attempting to give a proper answer.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 4,315
    edited February 7

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
    This morning's game is to guess where OKC is. I'm going for Salt Lake City or the Gobi Desert.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820
    edited February 7
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    +1

    The LibDems are just treading water under Vince, and this won't change. Meanwhile there ought to be a tremendous opportunity arising from the circumstances set out in the lead.
    It’s not just that they’re treading water, it’s that (one local by-election aside) they’re completely invisible. As far as I can tell there’s been no policy announcements, no news headlines and no key interviews for the last six months.
    That's a bit unfair in the week that the outcome of their commission on funding health and social care was released (and got coverage in the serious media). And Vince was one of the main interviews on Sunday's Marr. Maybe you don't see it from your distance?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
    This mornong's game is to guess where OKC is. I'm going for Salt Lake City or the Gobi Desert.
    I'm sitting by a swimming pool, so not the Gobi Desert.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
    This mornong's game is to guess where OKC is. I'm going for Salt Lake City or the Gobi Desert.
    I'm sitting by a swimming pool, so not the Gobi Desert.
    And SLC hardly fits "east of canvey", except in the sense that everywhere is east if you keep going.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037
    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.

    But the chronically Corbyn-allergic, rather than correcting their flawed and outdated view of the political landscape that was exposed in June 2017, are now twisting themselves in knots to try and ignore their mistakes.

    The idea that somehow the Tories and their press mouthpieces didn't ferociously attack Corbyn and his policies for weeks with every piece of ammunition on hand (most of it misleading or borderline fabricated) is just wishful thinking of the highest order. They did that last time, and it didn't work, because a lot of people aren't listening any more, or were more receptive to other views of the world than that extraordinarily narrow one offered up by the spear-carriers of feral Tory England.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010
    IanB2 said:

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
    This mornong's game is to guess where OKC is. I'm going for Salt Lake City or the Gobi Desert.
    I'm sitting by a swimming pool, so not the Gobi Desert.
    And SLC hardly fits "east of canvey", except in the sense that everywhere is east if you keep going.
    Land-wise East of Canvey starts at Belgium.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010
    JWisemann said:

    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.

    But the chronically Corbyn-allergic, rather than correcting their flawed and outdated view of the political landscape that was exposed in June 2017, are now twisting themselves in knots to try and ignore their mistakes.

    The idea that somehow the Tories and their press mouthpieces didn't ferociously attack Corbyn and his policies for weeks with every piece of ammunition on hand (most of it misleading or borderline fabricated) is just wishful thinking of the highest order. They did that last time, and it didn't work, because a lot of people aren't listening any more, or were more receptive to other views of the world than that extraordinarily narrow one offered up by the spear-carriers of feral Tory England.

    As far as the Tory campaign was concerned, Venezuela is a far away country of which we know little and Martin McGuinness of the IRA had shaken hands with the Queen.
  • First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
    This mornong's game is to guess where OKC is. I'm going for Salt Lake City or the Gobi Desert.
    I'm sitting by a swimming pool, so not the Gobi Desert.
    Hmmmm, let me see.......you are by a swimming pool, it's East of Canvey, so not Stratford, and it's flat....and presumably warm.

    OMG, you are staying with the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia in Riyadh!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
    This mornong's game is to guess where OKC is. I'm going for Salt Lake City or the Gobi Desert.
    I'm sitting by a swimming pool, so not the Gobi Desert.
    Hmmmm, let me see.......you are by a swimming pool, it's East of Canvey, so not Stratford, and it's flat....and presumably warm.

    OMG, you are staying with the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia in Riyadh!
    No, ladies can be seen and heard. And drive cars. Nice glass of beer with lunch, too!
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,934



    Anna Soubry would make good LD leader

    Agreed. If only she'd cross over... It'll not happen though no matter how much I wish it to.

    What I always find most impressive about Anna Soubry is that she never tries to duck or dodge answering any question put to her even if it's going to be uncomfortable for herself or for her own side. That's a quality almost extinct in politics now. Indeed, she takes great care to ensure that she answers questions fully, she communicates her opinions very clearly and she thinks at lightning speed. She's also a very natural and entertaining orator.

    She's certainly emerged as the heroine of us remainers. One of the very few politicians I feel is actually speaking for me.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,184
    Absolutely spot on.

    The Tories may not know how to govern, they may be buggering up Brexit, but they can recognise a gift horse when it looks them in the mouth. May is so bad that she cannot defeat a party led by privileged ex-public school Marxists who embrace anti-Semites and other elements of the fascist left, but there are others in her party who are not so abysmal.

    If the Tories skip a generation and choose a leader who does not scare off Remainers, they have every chance of winning the next general election.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037
    Oh come on, there might be the odd nutter in the party as there is in any party, but to say that the party is 'led by privileged ex-public school Marxists who embrace anti-Semites and other elements of the fascist left' is frothing nonsense and makes you look totally ridiculous, Joff. You dont like Corbyn, we get it. But you sound as wilfully divorced from reality as the most loony right-winger here.

    And who is this mythical young sexy Tory who is going to magically make everyone forget about why they are thoroughly sick of the party?

    (Of course, the issue they have to overcome is Corbyn's high vote, not a low Tory vote - they have cornered the demented end of the demographic come what may it seems)
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,840

    Absolutely spot on.

    The Tories may not know how to govern, they may be buggering up Brexit, but they can recognise a gift horse when it looks them in the mouth. May is so bad that she cannot defeat a party led by privileged ex-public school Marxists who embrace anti-Semites and other elements of the fascist left, but there are others in her party who are not so abysmal.

    If the Tories skip a generation and choose a leader who does not scare off Remainers, they have every chance of winning the next general election.

    Remainers are a problem, but there aren't enough of them alone to wreck the Conservative chances. The bigger problem is leavers who nonetheless are angry with the consequences of leaving. Don't expect them to be philosophical.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,657
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    +1

    The LibDems are just treading water under Vince, and this won't change. Meanwhile there ought to be a tremendous opportunity arising from the circumstances set out in the lead.
    It’s not just that they’re treading water, it’s that (one local by-election aside) they’re completely invisible. As far as I can tell there’s been no policy announcements, no news headlines and no key interviews for the last six months.
    That's a bit unfair in the week that the outcome of their commission on funding health and social care was released (and got coverage in the serious media). And Vince was one of the main interviews on Sunday's Marr. Maybe you don't see it from your distance?
    Okay fair enough, I did miss Marr this week. Good to hear there’s been some policy progress. What did their funding commission suggest?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,184
    JWisemann said:

    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.

    But the chronically Corbyn-allergic, rather than correcting their flawed and outdated view of the political landscape that was exposed in June 2017, are now twisting themselves in knots to try and ignore their mistakes.

    The idea that somehow the Tories and their press mouthpieces didn't ferociously attack Corbyn and his policies for weeks with every piece of ammunition on hand (most of it misleading or borderline fabricated) is just wishful thinking of the highest order. They did that last time, and it didn't work, because a lot of people aren't listening any more, or were more receptive to other views of the world than that extraordinarily narrow one offered up by the spear-carriers of feral Tory England.

    It did work. The Tories won most votes and most seats. With Mrs May leading them. Since the election the far left has gained control of the Labour party machine and has declared war on non-believers, while bringing in assorted anti-Semites and people who were actively campaigning against Labour as recently as 2015.

    Next time the horror stories will not be about Venezuela or what Corbyn did in the 1980s, but about Momentum-run Labour councils and Holocaust-denying Labour members. If the Tories choose a moderate leader untainted by Brexit they’ll be laughing all the way to a majority.

    That is a big if, mind. Tory members give every impression of being as blind to reality as Labour ones if their Jacob Rees Mogg love-in is anything to go by.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    +1

    The LibDems are just treading water under Vince, and this won't change. Meanwhile there ought to be a tremendous opportunity arising from the circumstances set out in the lead.
    It’s not just that they’re treading water, it’s that (one local by-election aside) they’re completely invisible. As far as I can tell there’s been no policy announcements, no news headlines and no key interviews for the last six months.
    That's a bit unfair in the week that the outcome of their commission on funding health and social care was released (and got coverage in the serious media). And Vince was one of the main interviews on Sunday's Marr. Maybe you don't see it from your distance?
    Okay fair enough, I did miss Marr this week. Good to hear there’s been some policy progress. What did their funding commission suggest?
    https://www.libdems.org.uk/health-social-care-report

    Hypothecated tax for health replacing NI
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037
    That's all very well, SO, but you were saying exactly the same things before the last election and Labour increased its vote massively.

    I'm not a member of Momentum and pretty active in my local party, and your characterisation of the workings of the party are as alien to my experience as anything out of the Daily Mail or Express.

    And 'while bringing in assorted anti-Semites' - care to give an example?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,819
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    +1

    The LibDems are just treading water under Vince, and this won't change. Meanwhile there ought to be a tremendous opportunity arising from the circumstances set out in the lead.
    It’s not just that they’re treading water, it’s that (one local by-election aside) they’re completely invisible. As far as I can tell there’s been no policy announcements, no news headlines and no key interviews for the last six months.
    They had the idea of a hypothecated tax for the NHS at the end of last week following on from some Commission that they had set up. I am not generally a fan of hypothecated taxes but there is a genuine issue of how the necessary tax increases to fund the Health Service adequately are going to be sold in an era where trust in politicians is at an all time low and that is a possible solution.

    Didn't see or hear Vince promoting it though.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820

    JWisemann said:

    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.

    But the chronically Corbyn-allergic, rather than correcting their flawed and outdated view of the political landscape that was exposed in June 2017, are now twisting themselves in knots to try and ignore their mistakes.

    The idea that somehow the Tories and their press mouthpieces didn't ferociously attack Corbyn and his policies for weeks with every piece of ammunition on hand (most of it misleading or borderline fabricated) is just wishful thinking of the highest order. They did that last time, and it didn't work, because a lot of people aren't listening any more, or were more receptive to other views of the world than that extraordinarily narrow one offered up by the spear-carriers of feral Tory England.

    It did work. The Tories won most votes and most seats. With Mrs May leading them. Since the election the far left has gained control of the Labour party machine and has declared war on non-believers, while bringing in assorted anti-Semites and people who were actively campaigning against Labour as recently as 2015.

    Next time the horror stories will not be about Venezuela or what Corbyn did in the 1980s, but about Momentum-run Labour councils and Holocaust-denying Labour members. If the Tories choose a moderate leader untainted by Brexit they’ll be laughing all the way to a majority.

    That is a big if, mind. Tory members give every impression of being as blind to reality as Labour ones if their Jacob Rees Mogg love-in is anything to go by.

    The Tories might have had a result closer to their opening poll ratings had they forgotten about their in-house project fear and had something positive to say.
  • As far as getting elected goes, The Labour Party isn't doing much wrong because it isn't doing much at all. And if it is correct strategy not to distract your opponents when they are screwing up, Labour's strategy is spot on. It doesn't need to be twenty points clear in the polls right now because there isn't going to be an election right now, or any time soon as long as Mrs May stays in office (which of course is what Labour wants because if she didn't win last time she sure as hell isn't going to win next time.)

    Getting elected however is one thing, but doing what is best for the country is quite another. Neither Party shows much interest in doing that, but I guess as long as it is in opposition, Labour has rather more excuse than the Tories.

    (Last guess, OKC. You are somewhere on the Deccan.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,657
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    +1

    The LibDems are just treading water under Vince, and this won't change. Meanwhile there ought to be a tremendous opportunity arising from the circumstances set out in the lead.
    It’s not just that they’re treading water, it’s that (one local by-election aside) they’re completely invisible. As far as I can tell there’s been no policy announcements, no news headlines and no key interviews for the last six months.
    That's a bit unfair in the week that the outcome of their commission on funding health and social care was released (and got coverage in the serious media). And Vince was one of the main interviews on Sunday's Marr. Maybe you don't see it from your distance?
    Okay fair enough, I did miss Marr this week. Good to hear there’s been some policy progress. What did their funding commission suggest?
    https://www.libdems.org.uk/health-social-care-report

    Hypothecated tax for health replacing NI
    Thanks, will take a read later :+1:
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,402

    JWisemann said:

    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.

    But the chronically Corbyn-allergic, rather than correcting their flawed and outdated view of the political landscape that was exposed in June 2017, are now twisting themselves in knots to try and ignore their mistakes.

    The idea that somehow the Tories and their press mouthpieces didn't ferociously attack Corbyn and his policies for weeks with every piece of ammunition on hand (most of it misleading or borderline fabricated) is just wishful thinking of the highest order. They did that last time, and it didn't work, because a lot of people aren't listening any more, or were more receptive to other views of the world than that extraordinarily narrow one offered up by the spear-carriers of feral Tory England.

    It did work. The Tories won most votes and most seats. With Mrs May leading them. Since the election the far left has gained control of the Labour party machine and has declared war on non-believers, while bringing in assorted anti-Semites and people who were actively campaigning against Labour as recently as 2015.

    Next time the horror stories will not be about Venezuela or what Corbyn did in the 1980s, but about Momentum-run Labour councils and Holocaust-denying Labour members. If the Tories choose a moderate leader untainted by Brexit they’ll be laughing all the way to a majority.

    That is a big if, mind. Tory members give every impression of being as blind to reality as Labour ones if their Jacob Rees Mogg love-in is anything to go by.

    Perhaps the most shocking thing for me is that the voters seem content to split 42/42 for both unpalatable options. Where is the British Macron or Ciudadanos option?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,184
    JWisemann said:

    That's all very well, SO, but you were saying exactly the same things before the last election and Labour increased its vote massively.

    I'm not a member of Momentum and pretty active in my local party, and your characterisation of the workings of the party are as alien to my experience as anything out of the Daily Mail or Express.

    And 'while bringing in assorted anti-Semites' - care to give an example?

    Momentum does not need to take over every CLP or run every Labour council in order for horror stories to dominate the media - see what happened in the 1980s. See also those who Corbyn surrounds himself with: Lansman, Milne and Murray - all ex public schoolboys, all wealthy, all avowed Marxists and the latter two at least actively campaigning against Labour as recently as the 2015 GE (along with Ken Loach and James Schneider, two other close Corbyn allies, of course). What unites them is privilege: they have never needed a Labour government or feared a Tory one. They are playing the kind of games only the privileged can afford to play - just like the Tory Brexit loons. Our public school system has much to answer for.

    As for the anyi-Semitism - do me a favour.

  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037
    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,819
    felix said:

    JWisemann said:

    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.

    But the chronically Corbyn-allergic, rather than correcting their flawed and outdated view of the political landscape that was exposed in June 2017, are now twisting themselves in knots to try and ignore their mistakes.

    The idea that somehow the Tories and their press mouthpieces didn't ferociously attack Corbyn and his policies for weeks with every piece of ammunition on hand (most of it misleading or borderline fabricated) is just wishful thinking of the highest order. They did that last time, and it didn't work, because a lot of people aren't listening any more, or were more receptive to other views of the world than that extraordinarily narrow one offered up by the spear-carriers of feral Tory England.

    It did work. The Tories won most votes and most seats. With Mrs May leading them. Since the election the far left has gained control of the Labour party machine and has declared war on non-believers, while bringing in assorted anti-Semites and people who were actively campaigning against Labour as recently as 2015.

    Next time the horror stories will not be about Venezuela or what Corbyn did in the 1980s, but about Momentum-run Labour councils and Holocaust-denying Labour members. If the Tories choose a moderate leader untainted by Brexit they’ll be laughing all the way to a majority.

    That is a big if, mind. Tory members give every impression of being as blind to reality as Labour ones if their Jacob Rees Mogg love-in is anything to go by.

    Perhaps the most shocking thing for me is that the voters seem content to split 42/42 for both unpalatable options. Where is the British Macron or Ciudadanos option?
    Our politics is being entirely driven by fear of the other at the moment. Although the gap between the major parties is wider than it has been for some time playing about with the minor parties seems like an indulgence faced with such distaste.

    It's weird. In many respects it reminds me of politics before the SDP was launched but there is absolutely no sign of it. Where are the Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams and David Owens of our days? (Sorry Bill, forgot you yet again)
  • Ok, gotta do some so-called work now. Decent card at Ludlow today.

    Will somebody please let me know if and when OKC is properly located.

    Toodle pip.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,184
    JWisemann said:

    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.

    Are you saying that photograph has been doctored and the meeting made up? Providing endless gifts to Guido is a mistake. If you don’t agree, so be it. That so many inside Labour turn a blind eye to the activities of the anti-Semitic, fascist left is what will ensure the party gets beaten once more come the next general election.

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,808

    Ok, gotta do some so-called work now. Decent card at Ludlow today.

    Will somebody please let me know if and when OKC is properly located.

    Toodle pip.

    Try Thai
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,402
    "Lib Dem MP Sarah Olney pays back £2,000 after using your cash for anti-Heathrow campaign"
    Sun.

    Oh dear - sleazy LDs - who'd have thought it?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010
    edited February 7

    As far as getting elected goes, The Labour Party isn't doing much wrong because it isn't doing much at all. And if it is correct strategy not to distract your opponents when they are screwing up, Labour's strategy is spot on. It doesn't need to be twenty points clear in the polls right now because there isn't going to be an election right now, or any time soon as long as Mrs May stays in office (which of course is what Labour wants because if she didn't win last time she sure as hell isn't going to win next time.)

    Getting elected however is one thing, but doing what is best for the country is quite another. Neither Party shows much interest in doing that, but I guess as long as it is in opposition, Labour has rather more excuse than the Tories.

    (Last guess, OKC. You are somewhere on the Deccan.)

    While I agree, Mr P, with your conclusions..... that Labour can afford to let the Tories dig their own hole, but that it really can't go on navel gazing itself for much longer, I'm afraid you haven't gone far enough East.
    The City of Bangkok is currently experiencing the last knockings of a cold front which has moved down from China, and consequently it's environs are enjoying something akin to what the SE of England is supposed to enjoy in June.
    It's really very pleasant indeed here at the moment, although it's due to warm up, and become much sultrier, in a day or so.

    And no I'm not following in SeanT's footprints or whatever trail he left.

    I hope you're successful re Ludlow. Nice little town in it's own right!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,415

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
    This morning's game is to guess where OKC is. I'm going for Salt Lake City or the Gobi Desert.
    Thailand
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,808
    felix said:

    "Lib Dem MP Sarah Olney pays back £2,000 after using your cash for anti-Heathrow campaign"
    Sun.

    Oh dear - sleazy LDs - who'd have thought it?

    Missing Ex there.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820
    edited February 7
    felix said:

    JWisemann said:

    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.


    It did work. The Tories won most votes and most seats. With Mrs May leading them. Since the election the far left has gained control of the Labour party machine and has declared war on non-believers, while bringing in assorted anti-Semites and people who were actively campaigning against Labour as recently as 2015.

    Next time the horror stories will not be about Venezuela or what Corbyn did in the 1980s, but about Momentum-run Labour councils and Holocaust-denying Labour members. If the Tories choose a moderate leader untainted by Brexit they’ll be laughing all the way to a majority.

    That is a big if, mind. Tory members give every impression of being as blind to reality as Labour ones if their Jacob Rees Mogg love-in is anything to go by.

    Perhaps the most shocking thing for me is that the voters seem content to split 42/42 for both unpalatable options. Where is the British Macron or Ciudadanos option?
    I think the issue is that the stark and unedifying choice between Tory and Labour is crowding out consideration of any other option. The view that the centre party does best when the two main parties are at the extremes isn't really supported by the evidence - 1983 is usually cited, but that was when Labour had self-destructed, split and engaged in civil war, which is more 'proof' of the "divided parties don't win" rule than saying much about the political centre. And of course the SDP had captured a lot of headlines because of the shock of senior politicians splitting off to start something new.

    1979 is a more salutary example. Compared to 1974 (which is still the third party highwater mark in much of the country), the two parties had moved further apart - the Tories under early Thatcher and Labour with Callaghan and Healey trying to keep a lid on the left. The Liberals under Steel went into the election with high hopes, based on the 'gap in the centre', which they explicitly pitched for ("The Real Fight is for Britain"), yet the 1979 result was one of the low points of the third-party recovery.

    A bit like reality TV, even when there's a horrible choice to make, the evidence suggests people would nevertheless rather participate.

    It would take something truly dramatic to re-create Macron in the UK - and the potential scenarios all seem very far fetched. The most likely of an unlikely bunch IMO is that Brexit is clearly heading for the rocks, public opinion is increasingly hostile, yet the majority of the Tory party wants to press ahead, and the moderate wing splits off to join the LibDems in stopping the whole enterprise. Unlikely, as I say.

    Much as I like Anna, she sadly isn't the next messiah.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,817
    edited February 7

    JWisemann said:

    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.

    Are you saying that photograph has been doctored and the meeting made up? Providing endless gifts to Guido is a mistake. If you don’t agree, so be it. That so many inside Labour turn a blind eye to the activities of the anti-Semitic, fascist left is what will ensure the party gets beaten once more come the next general election.

    I'm just enjoying the irony of somebody who quotes the lies of Steve Wilson as fact criticising somebody else for quoting Paul Staines or claiming that negative stories about Corbyn are 'borderline fabricated.'
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820

    JWisemann said:

    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.

    Are you saying that photograph has been doctored and the meeting made up? Providing endless gifts to Guido is a mistake. If you don’t agree, so be it. That so many inside Labour turn a blind eye to the activities of the anti-Semitic, fascist left is what will ensure the party gets beaten once more come the next general election.

    What's the rosette Corby is wearing?
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,402
    philiph said:

    felix said:

    "Lib Dem MP Sarah Olney pays back £2,000 after using your cash for anti-Heathrow campaign"
    Sun.

    Oh dear - sleazy LDs - who'd have thought it?

    Missing Ex there.
    Err she did it almost as soon as she became an MP.!
  • MJWMJW Posts: 312
    JWisemann said:

    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.

    But the chronically Corbyn-allergic, rather than correcting their flawed and outdated view of the political landscape that was exposed in June 2017, are now twisting themselves in knots to try and ignore their mistakes.

    The idea that somehow the Tories and their press mouthpieces didn't ferociously attack Corbyn and his policies for weeks with every piece of ammunition on hand (most of it misleading or borderline fabricated) is just wishful thinking of the highest order. They did that last time, and it didn't work, because a lot of people aren't listening any more, or were more receptive to other views of the world than that extraordinarily narrow one offered up by the spear-carriers of feral Tory England.

    This is an exact example of the attitude that will lead Labour to defeat. No one's arguing the Tories didn't attack Corbyn, just that they did so extremely uneffectively due to a number of factors that may not be present at the next election. The first is that in calling the election, May specifically made the election a referendum on her version of Brexit, and Labour's position in the polls meant that for many, the rights and wrongs of Corbyn’s beliefs and actions just weren't an issue. For many, the horrors of Tory Brexiteers running Britain were a more visceral threat than an unlikely Corbyn victory. Secondly, they chose to focus their attacks on an element of Corbyn’s beliefs, his cosiness with IRA republicans, that is we'll in the past. Most people under 40 have far stronger memories of Gerry Adams as peacemakers rather than terrorists, and Corbyn argued, fairly successfully that his actions were an arcane matter in the scheme of the peace process. Lastly, they were unable to properly attack Lab's manifesto because their own was such a vague mess.

    The first factor certainly won't be present at the next election as Labour's current policy makes Brexit a fait accompli and Corbyn' s chances can't be written off. The second and third may be, but It's dangerous to rely on your opponents to make the same mistakes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,817
    IanB2 said:

    JWisemann said:

    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.

    Are you saying that photograph has been doctored and the meeting made up? Providing endless gifts to Guido is a mistake. If you don’t agree, so be it. That so many inside Labour turn a blind eye to the activities of the anti-Semitic, fascist left is what will ensure the party gets beaten once more come the next general election.

    What's the rosette Corby is wearing?
    Even though I am no admirer of Corbyn I doubt if it is the BNP rosette it looks so eerily like. Maybe an oversized peace poppy?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,817
    Charles said:

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
    This morning's game is to guess where OKC is. I'm going for Salt Lake City or the Gobi Desert.
    Thailand
    Didn't think they had decent beer in Thailand.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820
    edited February 7
    MJW said:

    JWisemann said:

    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.

    But the chronically Corbyn-allergic, rather than correcting their flawed and outdated view of the political landscape that was exposed in June 2017, are now twisting themselves in knots to try and ignore their mistakes.

    The idea that somehow the Tories and their press mouthpieces didn't ferociously attack Corbyn and his policies for weeks with every piece of ammunition on hand (most of it misleading or borderline fabricated) is just wishful thinking of the highest order. They did that last time, and it didn't work, because a lot of people aren't listening any more, or were more receptive to other views of the world than that extraordinarily narrow one offered up by the spear-carriers of feral Tory England.

    This is an exact example of the attitude that will lead Labour to defeat. No one's arguing the Tories didn't attack Corbyn, just that they did so extremely uneffectively due to a number of factors that may not be present at the next election. The first is that in calling the election, May specifically made the election a referendum on her version of Brexit, and Labour's position in the polls meant that for many, the rights and wrongs of Corbyn’s beliefs and actions just weren't an issue. For many, the horrors of Tory Brexiteers running Britain were a more visceral threat than an unlikely Corbyn victory. Secondly, they chose to focus their attacks on an element of Corbyn’s beliefs, his cosiness with IRA republicans, that is we'll in the past. Most people under 40 have far stronger memories of Gerry Adams as peacemakers rather than terrorists, and Corbyn argued, fairly successfully that his actions were an arcane matter in the scheme of the peace process. Lastly, they were unable to properly attack Lab's manifesto because their own was such a vague mess.

    The first factor certainly won't be present at the next election as Labour's current policy makes Brexit a fait accompli and Corbyn' s chances can't be written off. The second and third may be, but It's dangerous to rely on your opponents to make the same mistakes.
    On 1. the next election is very likely to be about Brexit, or its aftermath, one way or another;
    2. Fear of the Tory ultras running things may well be higher, given their rising ascendency (all the PB Tories thinking they are the answer...);
    3. If the economic outcome/short-term hit from Brexit is poor, the Tories will again struggle to have anything positive to say about the economy.

    Plus the challenges May set out on taking office remain unaddressed (the 'causes of Brexit') and all the signs are that her powerlessness in the face of vested interest within the Tory party will mean that this remains the case.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,349

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    Pretty sure Redcar was always a one off due to local circumstance anyway.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 4,919
    Certainly I wouldn't advocate that Labour be complacent, but it's entirely possible for the Conservatives to be less competent at the next election. If Theresa May is still leader, or the transition to a new leader is botched, or Brexit crystallizes into an actual omnishambles with direct effect on people's lives and the Tory civil war on Europe steps up a few notches in intensity.

    Not that I'm arguing this is likely, but things can always get worse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,817
    Has to be said that the Fawkes story is peculiar on a number of levels. How come Corbyn clapped a speech that accused Labour of 'structural racism?' What was Williamson doing there? Why this strange rosette? Above all, why was he sharing a platform with a complete idiot and deranged liar like Bouattia?

    Is it fake news to some extent or is Corbyn just showing even less judgement than usual?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 9,820
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
    This morning's game is to guess where OKC is. I'm going for Salt Lake City or the Gobi Desert.
    Thailand
    Didn't think they had decent beer in Thailand.
    And 'flat' isn't the first adjective that comes to mind, even though much of it is?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 9,817
    edited February 7

    Certainly I wouldn't advocate that Labour be complacent, but it's entirely possible for the Conservatives to be less competent at the next election. If Theresa May is still leader, or the transition to a new leader is botched, or Brexit crystallizes into an actual omnishambles with direct effect on people's lives and the Tory civil war on Europe steps up a few notches in intensity.

    Not that I'm arguing this is likely, but things can always get worse.

    And with the Jezziah in charge with his fully costed (apart from the £90 billion black hole on utilities and naked police officers) manifesto of course they would be worse, horrifying thought though that is!

    I have to get to work. Have a good morning.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,349
    It really is a shame that when the main two are at extremes, it doesnt lead to a rise for the muffle option - as IanB2 says it doesn't seem to work out that way. If the polls are right about it being neck and neck, then those banging on about a divided society will finally have been right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,349
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Many of the issues OGH describes as affecting the Tories also, to some degree affected the LDs. I'm not by any means sure that Vince should lead them into the next election either. However a younger, livelier and especially female, leader would make a significant difference. Might not win back Burnley and Redcar, but might make a significant difference to the Labour vote in LD/Con marginals.

    +1

    The LibDems are just treading water under Vince, and this won't change. Meanwhile there ought to be a tremendous opportunity arising from the circumstances set out in the lead.
    It’s not just that they’re treading water, it’s that (one local by-election aside) they’re completely invisible. As far as I can tell there’s been no policy announcements, no news headlines and no key interviews for the last six months.
    That's a bit unfair in the week that the outcome of their commission on funding health and social care was released (and got coverage in the serious media). And Vince was one of the main interviews on Sunday's Marr. Maybe you don't see it from your distance?
    It's a generally true point, even if they did grab some brief attention this particular week.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,075
    People couldn't predict the result of the last general election on the night. What chance now?

    Labour aren't complacent IMO. They've been door knocking in January . Lots of organisation and fundraising going on.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    First! But being a long way East at the moment helps!

    What you doing in Dagenham at this time of the morning?
    I'm East of Dagenham. To be fair, I usually am. However at the moment i''m even well to the East of Canvey Island.
    Beond Canvey - wow! Now that is an adventure.

    Btw, JackW knows very well who the current Stuart heir to the throne is, but would be far too modest to mention.

    Have a good day....what's left of it.
    The area where I am is flat but that's about the only similarity with Canvey.
    This morning's game is to guess where OKC is. I'm going for Salt Lake City or the Gobi Desert.
    Thailand
    Didn't think they had decent beer in Thailand.
    It's OK. For lager. I'll be glad to get back to bitter though.

    And wine. The price here is astronomical even for locally produced stuff, a little at least of which isn't bad. Apparently the beer and spirits industry is 'worried' about the locals getting a taste for wine, so lobby for an extortionate tax. Paid around £13 the other day for some very average Primitivo.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037
    ydoethur said:

    JWisemann said:

    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.

    Are you saying that photograph has been doctored and the meeting made up? Providing endless gifts to Guido is a mistake. If you don’t agree, so be it. That so many inside Labour turn a blind eye to the activities of the anti-Semitic, fascist left is what will ensure the party gets beaten once more come the next general election.

    I'm just enjoying the irony of somebody who quotes the lies of Steve Wilson as fact criticising somebody else for quoting Paul Staines or claiming that negative stories about Corbyn are 'borderline fabricated.'
    I don’t even know who Steve Wilson is. What are you talking about?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,349
    ydoethur said:

    Has to be said that the Fawkes story is peculiar on a number of levels. How come Corbyn clapped a speech that accused Labour of 'structural racism?' What was Williamson doing there? Why this strange rosette? Above all, why was he sharing a platform with a complete idiot and deranged liar like Bouattia?

    Is it fake news to some extent or is Corbyn just showing even less judgement than usual?

    People can clap a speech due to bits in it even if they didn't agree with every single point. But who knows, maybe it is nonsense.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 2,195
    DavidL said:

    felix said:

    JWisemann said:

    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.

    But the chronically Corbyn-allergic, rather than correcting their flawed and outdated view of the political landscape that was exposed in June 2017, are now twisting themselves in knots to try and ignore their mistakes.

    The idea that somehow the Tories and their press mouthpieces didn't ferociously attack Corbyn and his policies for weeks with every piece of ammunition on hand (most of it misleading or borderline fabricated) is just wishful thinking of the highest order. They did that last time, and it didn't work, because a lot of people aren't listening any more, or were more receptive to other views of the world than that extraordinarily narrow one offered up by the spear-carriers of feral Tory England.

    It did work. The Tories won most votes and most seats. With Mrs May leading them. Since the election the far left has gained control of the Labour party machine and has declared war on non-believers, while bringing in assorted anti-Semites and people who were actively campaigning against Labour as recently as 2015.


    Perhaps the most shocking thing for me is that the voters seem content to split 42/42 for both unpalatable options. Where is the British Macron or Ciudadanos option?
    Our politics is being entirely driven by fear of the other at the moment. Although the gap between the major parties is wider than it has been for some time playing about with the minor parties seems like an indulgence faced with such distaste.

    It's weird. In many respects it reminds me of politics before the SDP was launched but there is absolutely no sign of it. Where are the Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams and David Owens of our days? (Sorry Bill, forgot you yet again)
    Not entirely by Fear of the Other.

    Jezza ran a very successful campaign, but almost by accident. May was and is dire, but even so started with a massive lead.

    At election announcement it was widely predicted that Labour would be obliterated and ended the campaign gaining seats and on 40%. If it was purely a dire Tory campaign, then those votes could have gone to a number of parties: LD, Green, SNP, PC, even UKIP.

    They didn't, they went to Jezza. Why? Because his campaign was based on hope not fear, and a view of a better society with less intergenerational injustice, and for better, more collective institutions.

    The Tories need to stop being complacent themselves. Britons liked what Jezza said and did.



  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037
    edited February 7

    JWisemann said:

    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.

    Are you saying that photograph has been doctored and the meeting made up? Providing endless gifts to Guido is a mistake. If you don’t agree, so be it. That so many inside Labour turn a blind eye to the activities of the anti-Semitic, fascist left is what will ensure the party gets beaten once more come the next general election.

    No, Im querying the slanted (almost always is from this ludicrous source) Guido interpretation and explanation of events, which you seem to be taking at face value, probably because you have Corbyn derangement syndrome and are willing to stoop to the vilest of sources to reinforce your preconceptions.

    And I also don’t swallow the obvious desperate attempt to conflate being ferociously critical of Israel’s appalling crimes against humanity (which any non-sociopathic human should be) with being anti-semitic.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,349
    Headlined clip on the BBC of Justin Trudeau apparently talking about 'peoplekind' rather than 'mankind'. Surely if we want a less seemingly gendered term 'humankind' works better?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,075
    kle4 said:

    Headlined clip on the BBC of Justin Trudeau apparently talking about 'peoplekind' rather than 'mankind'. Surely if we want a less seemingly gendered term 'humankind' works better?

    Hupeoplekind surely.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 42,410
    edited February 7
    Good morning, everyone.

    It'd take some effort to be quite as piss-poor again. Not impossible, but some effort.

    Mr. kle4, women, sorry, wopeople need to be educated.

    Edited extra bit: oh, and my pre-test ramble's up here: http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/02/early-pre-season-musings.html
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037
    ‘Britons liked what Jezza said and did’
    Bingo. This is the simple small fact that all of the Westminste bubble interpreters of the election and post-election landscape are desperate to skirt around.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,349
    Jonathan said:

    People couldn't predict the result of the last general election on the night. What chance now?

    Labour aren't complacent IMO. They've been door knocking in January . Lots of organisation and fundraising going on.

    Complacency is surely about more than mere organisation and fundraising. It would be possible to put in loads of effort, but through complacency focus it in the wrong way at the wrong people, and so the effort be wasted.

    Though I must say the ones round my way seem very fired up and organised, pushing arguments hard and getting some attention. Kudos to their effort.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,179

    JWisemann said:

    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.

    Are you saying that photograph has been doctored and the meeting made up? Providing endless gifts to Guido is a mistake. If you don’t agree, so be it. That so many inside Labour turn a blind eye to the activities of the anti-Semitic, fascist left is what will ensure the party gets beaten once more come the next general election.

    Extremists on the left are just like those on the right. They psychologically ban themselves from hearing news from certain sources to help create their insular bubble.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 28,261
    JWisemann said:

    ‘Britons liked what Jezza said and did’
    Bingo. This is the simple small fact that all of the Westminste bubble interpreters of the election and post-election landscape are desperate to skirt around.

    You mean like scrapping University Tuition fees? How's that one played out?
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037
    felix said:
    I see the traitorous tendency are out in force again for their annual attempt to sabotage the locals with a load of overblown anti-semitism stuff. So there is the odd nutter amongst the half a million members, fine, kick them out. Hardly a crisis.
    I was hoping the appalling duplicitous likes of Mann and Streeting, who do so much to damage their party, would have been shut up by that al-Jazeera documentary, but no, still a stuck record.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,349
    edited February 7
    JWisemann said:

    ‘Britons liked what Jezza said and did’
    Bingo. This is the simple small fact that all of the Westminste bubble interpreters of the election and post-election landscape are desperate to skirt around.

    Many did like what he said and did, no denying that. More still liked May though, by number of voters. Only one moved forward in seats, and did so unexpectedly and we'll done to him, but the election wasn't some condemnation of May and Co even with the terrible campaign going backwards either, since they did still get first place nationally.

    Corbyn's well placed for next time, and his leading an improvement cannot be ignored, but it shouldn't be oversold as though future victory is inevitable, even if tories should not ignore the possibility to their peril.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,037

    JWisemann said:

    ‘Britons liked what Jezza said and did’
    Bingo. This is the simple small fact that all of the Westminste bubble interpreters of the election and post-election landscape are desperate to skirt around.

    You mean like scrapping University Tuition fees? How's that one played out?
    Still Labour policy as far as I’m aware, what’s your point?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 28,261
    A legal perspective on Customs Unions:

    Staying inside the EU Customs Union after ceasing to be a Member State would necessarily entail a severe and continuing curtailment of the UK’s powers to govern itself as an independent state and would subject it to the continuing effective jurisdiction of the ECJ. In particular:

    1. The UK would be obliged to operate a system of external tariffs according to the Common Customs Tariff decided by the EU, and would be obliged to follow future changes made to the Common Tariff, while not having a vote on those changes.

    2. The UK would not be allowed to enter in to trade agreements involving reduced or zero tariffs with non-Member countries, which would make it in practice impossible to conclude meaningful trade agreements. It would in practice be obliged to follow the terms of trade agreements reached by the EU with non-Member countries or blocs, without having a vote on those agreements or on how they are negotiated. It is hard to see what useful purpose would be served by having a Department of International Trade.

    3. The UK would be obliged, either directly or via an indirect mechanism similar to that of the EFTA Court under the EEA Agreement, to continue to be bound by past and future decisions of the ECJ on the interpretation of the common rules of the customs union.

    4. If (as seems inevitable) the continuing customs union with the EU extends to non-tariff customs controls (such as certification of compliance with technical or safety standards, health requirements for food, etc) the UK would be obliged to follow the EU’s future rule changes on all these matters as well as interpretations of the rules by the ECJ.

    5. The UK would have to apply these same rules and regulations across its own domestic economy as well. WTO rules do not permit us to operate different or more stringent standards on imported goods than the rules under which we allow goods to be put on our domestic market.

    5. Having to follow the EU’s common rules on such non-tariff customs controls would (1) mean that the UK would be unable to negotiate changes to such controls with non-Member countries in order to facilitate trade with them and (2) make it in practice very difficult indeed for the UK to change its own rules for goods in its domestic market to differ from those applicable to imported goods under the Customs union common rules.

    6. Overall, the UK would be significantly worse off than it is at present as an EU Member because it would be bound by the common rules of the EU customs union over wide areas of policy, be unable to operate an international trade policy independently of the EU, but have no vote on these matters.


    http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/eu-deal-customs-union.shtml
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,796
    Brexiteer promotes Irish unification...

    @PolhomeEditor: Tory Brexiteers Bernard Jenkin says “there is going to be a customs frontier at the points of entry between the European Union and United Kingdom”, but insists that won’t mean checks on the Irish border. #r4today
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,601
    TGOHF said:
    Because Remoaners in 2214 will STILL blame a meteorite-induced Armageddon on Brexit.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,349
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Headlined clip on the BBC of Justin Trudeau apparently talking about 'peoplekind' rather than 'mankind'. Surely if we want a less seemingly gendered term 'humankind' works better?

    Hupeoplekind surely.
    Lets just stick to using the scientific classification, eg for all homo sapiens. Or, So As Not To exclude Our hominid Past brethren, For all homos.

    In all seriousness though humankind is already a word at least isn't it? My only objection to peoplekind is it feels like a mouthful to say in comparison.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,010

    TGOHF said:
    Because Remoaners in 2214 will STILL blame a meteorite-induced Armageddon on Brexit.....
    Quite rightly. If we hadn't sailed ourselves into the North Atlantic it would have missed us.

    There'd have been a hell of a splash of course!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,415
    IanB2 said:

    felix said:

    JWisemann said:

    Oh come off it Mike - no-one is being complacent and a Labour victory is far from nailed on.


    It did work. The Tories won most votes and most seats. With Mrs May leading them. Since the election the far left has gained control of the Labour party machine and has declared war onwere actively campaigning against Labour as recently as 2015.

    Next time the horror stories will not be about Venezuela or what Corbyn did in the 1980s, but about Momentum-run Labour councils and Holocaust-denying Labour members. If the Tories choose a moderate leader untainted by Brexit they’ll be laughing all the way to a majority.

    That is a big if, mind. Tory members give every impression of being as blind to reality as Labour ones if their Jacob Rees Mogg love-in is anything to go by.

    Perhaps the most shocking thing for me is that the voters seem content to split 42/42 for both unpalatable options. Where is the British Macron or Ciudadanos option?
    I think the issue is that the stark and unedifying choice between Tory and Labour is crowding out consideration of any other option. The view that the centre party does best when the two main parties are at the extremes isn't really supported by the evidence - 1983 is usually cited, but that was when Labour had self-destructed, split and engaged in civil war, which is more 'proof' of the "divided parties don't win" rule than saying much about the political centre. And of course the SDP had captured a lot of headlines because of the shock of senior politicians splitting off to start something new.

    1979 is a more salutary example. Compared to 1974 (which is still the third party highwater mark in much of the country), the two parties had moved further apart - the Tories under early Thatcher and Labour with Callaghan and Healey trying to keep a lid on the left. The Liberals under Steel went into the election with high hopes, based on the 'gap in the centre', which they explicitly pitched for ("The Real Fight is for Britain"), yet the 1979 result was one of the low points of the third-party recovery.

    A bit like reality TV, even when there's a horrible choice to make, the evidence suggests people would nevertheless rather participate.

    It would take something truly dramatic to re-create Macron in the UK - and the potential scenarios all seem very far fetched. The most likely of an unlikely bunch IMO is that Brexit is clearly heading for the rocks, public opinion is increasingly hostile, yet the majority of the Tory party wants to press ahead, and the moderate wing splits off to join the LibDems in stopping the whole enterprise. Unlikely, as I say.

    Much as I like Anna, she sadly isn't the next messiah.
    Anna is the next James Chapman
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,601
    kle4 said:

    Headlined clip on the BBC of Justin Trudeau apparently talking about 'peoplekind' rather than 'mankind'. Surely if we want a less seemingly gendered term 'humankind' works better?

    Any use of the three letters in the sequence "M-A-N" is clearly a always an intended slight against those defining themselves as the female of the species.

    Next stop: Personufacturing. Because a MAN makes everything, huh?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 42,410
    Mr. kle4, some people say humankind. Seems daft to me, but not on the plane of bullshit inhabited by 'peoplekind'.

    Presumably Trudeau would refer to a mailman called Guy Chap as Person Person, who works as a personperson.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,685
    Jonathan said:

    People couldn't predict the result of the last general election on the night. What chance now?

    Labour aren't complacent IMO. They've been door knocking in January . Lots of organisation and fundraising going on.

    For May locals? I should hope so.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,018

    JWisemann said:

    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.

    Are you saying that photograph has been doctored and the meeting made up? Providing endless gifts to Guido is a mistake. If you don’t agree, so be it. That so many inside Labour turn a blind eye to the activities of the anti-Semitic, fascist left is what will ensure the party gets beaten once more come the next general election.

    There is very little Jeremy Corbyn could do that wouldn't get an unfavourable review from that website. No one who reads it is ever going to vote Labour.

    The lesson I took from the GE 2017 is that if you have policies people like, then you don't need to run every action you take through the "But what will the Daily Mail say?" filter. That goes double for a niche politics blog.

    I still think it's 50/50 for the next election.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,840
    Jonathan said:

    People couldn't predict the result of the last general election on the night. What chance now?

    Labour aren't complacent IMO. They've been door knocking in January . Lots of organisation and fundraising going on.

    They seem to be active here in a rural part of the south east. As the baseline is not even existing that is quite something.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 150
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    JWisemann said:

    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.

    Are you saying that photograph has been doctored and the meeting made up? Providing endless gifts to Guido is a mistake. If you don’t agree, so be it. That so many inside Labour turn a blind eye to the activities of the anti-Semitic, fascist left is what will ensure the party gets beaten once more come the next general election.

    What's the rosette Corby is wearing?
    Even though I am no admirer of Corbyn I doubt if it is the BNP rosette it looks so eerily like. Maybe an oversized peace poppy?
    It looks like a Suffragette rosette, white purple and green.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,184
    JWisemann said:

    JWisemann said:

    I see SO, you get your news from and give credence to Guido - no wonder your posts seem like a Daily Express front page.

    Are you saying that photograph has been doctored and the meeting made up? Providing endless gifts to Guido is a mistake. If you don’t agree, so be it. That so many inside Labour turn a blind eye to the activities of the anti-Semitic, fascist left is what will ensure the party gets beaten once more come the next general election.

    No, Im querying the slanted (almost always is from this ludicrous source) Guido interpretation and explanation of events, which you seem to be taking at face value, probably because you have Corbyn derangement syndrome and are willing to stoop to the vilest of sources to reinforce your preconceptions.

    And I also don’t swallow the obvious desperate attempt to conflate being ferociously critical of Israel’s appalling crimes against humanity (which any non-sociopathic human should be) with being anti-semitic.

    Of course. And that makes you part of the problem. Good news for the Tories.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,415
    TGOHF said:
    I do like the British sense of humour!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,115
    JWisemann said:

    felix said:
    I see the traitorous tendency are out in force again for their annual attempt to sabotage the locals with a load of overblown anti-semitism stuff. So there is the odd nutter amongst the half a million members, fine, kick them out. Hardly a crisis.
    I was hoping the appalling duplicitous likes of Mann and Streeting, who do so much to damage their party, would have been shut up by that al-Jazeera documentary, but no, still a stuck record.
    Execute the traitors. A dog's death for dogs.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,331
    Generally agree with JWiseman on this thread. Specifically, there is a LOT of work going on about both policy (expect some interesting stuff for some of us shortly) and organisation, most of it below the radar. I don't think the "member/councillor/adviser X who you've never heard of said outrageous thing Y" stories really work outside political circles - we've all tried it on other parties and the voters say meh, whozzat. Nor do "Cabinet splits as X makes veiled attack on Y" stories really harm the Government - people feel bemused but say all this stuff is nothing to do with me, can't be bothered to follow it.

    Clearly the next election remains open and I think the pool of floating voters is currently small, which is why the polls are so solid - most people have a firm view of who they don't like and are planning to vote for the other lot, regardless. But all sitting governments have built-in rates of decay and I think the Conservatives do have more to worry about - if they are building a narrative to take them forward after Brexit, they are disguising it awfully well (except Gove). Labour has a narrative (end austerity, rebuild public services), and in politics something usually beats nothing.
This discussion has been closed.