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  • Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    White Wednesday as some of them call it.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695

    Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    White Wednesday as some of them call it.
    Do you still think Theresa will be out this week TSE? :D
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    TGOHF said:

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    I think the EU's "punishment" line has gone down very poorly with voters, remain or leave. That could be why the government saw a bit of a turnaround and the right to leave rating is a bit better.

    I've long suspected this.

    One of the rules of British politics in the last two decades has been UK governments get a bump in the polls when standing up to bureaucrats in Brussels.
    Usually it’s cost free. Standing up for the British sausage when there’s a ticking clock isn’t quite the same thing.
    The only party willing to swallow the sausage is the LDs and they don't seem to be polling that well.

    Evidence that a pro-Eu stance means an uptick in polling is thin on the ground.

    Maybe they'd do better with Jo Swinson as leader.
    As was suggested on here the other day, they’re welcome to Anna Soubry!
    If you actually look at how Soubry has voted whilst an MP (and not just her toys-out-the-pram -since-losing-her-job phase), then that voting record would make their little LibDemmy heads explode......
    True, apart from on matters EU she’s been quite blue. A younger and female Ken Clarke.

    Heidi Allan is more of a defection worry, or Sarah Wollaston.
  • Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    White Wednesday as some of them call it.
    Or as justin trudeau calls "all colours of the rainbow" Wednesday.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    edited February 2018
    I can see people might be concerned about Jeremy Corbyn as PM and if you were rich enough you might think £55 000 is money well spent to help avoid that outcome. But enduring A WHOLE DAY with Theresa May is surely beyond the call of duty

    A Tory donor has paid £55,000 to spend a day with Theresa May, in an auction at the party’s annual Black and White fundraising ball.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also, Soros is a cancer to western society. His attempts to undermine democracy all over the west should be called out and those wishing to silence his critics by accusing them of anti-Semitism are just as bad as he is. I don't dislike him because he's Jewish, I dislike him because of his support of open borders and ultra-leftist politics and his funding of disingenuous ultra-leftist groups.

    Max not accusing you of anything but do you take the same attitude towards those who constantly get accused of anti semitism for sticking up for the rights of Palestinians?
    Can you provide any specific examples (I don't doubt there are, it'd just be nice to see some).
    Not sure which angle you'd like but I think this is quite a good one.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/social-media-storm-breaks-over-corbyn-s-jew-free-holocaust-memorial-day-statement-1.457496

    ______________________________________
    Neither the Prime Minister nor the Lib Dems' Vince Cable made specific mention of Jews in their HMD statements.

    However opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn’s was singled out for excoriation on social media after it became apparent that the veteran left-winger had failed to mention Jews or antisemitism in his message.
    _______________________________________

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15901690.Apology_offered_to_Corbyn_amid_controversy_over_Holocaust_comments/

    --------------------------------------
    A longer message from the Labour leader, printed in a booklet for a Westminster service of commemoration, referred by name to Jewish Holocaust victims, including Anne Frank, as “our Jewish brothers and sisters”.

    Among critics of Mr Corbyn on Thursday was the editor of the Jewish Chronicle, Stephen Pollard, who was one of several Twitter users to draw a comparison with a similar message last year by Donald Trump.

    But after seeing the longer passage, Mr Pollard deleted his tweet, saying that the Labour leader’s words were “admirable”, and adding: “I owe Jeremy Corbyn an apology. His HMD statement on the day did not mention Jews. But this statement in the brochure clearly does.”
    ------------------------------------------

    Mr Pollard is probably one of Corbyn's biggest critics.

    Worth noting that all 3 party leaders did what Corbyn did but only Corbyn had the usual anti semitic attack line brought up.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    White Wednesday as some of them call it.
    Do you still think Theresa will be out this week TSE? :D
    I expect a vote of confidence to be called within the next few weeks.

    I wasn't expecting Mrs May and the cabinet meeting yesterday to engage in can kicking, once they finally come to decision, I think it'll trigger the vote.
  • Mr. Urquhart, Trudeau's now claiming his 'peoplekind' nonsense was a joke. So far, peoplekind does not seem persuaded.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    White Wednesday as some of them call it.
    Do you still think Theresa will be out this week TSE? :D
    I expect a vote of confidence to be called within the next few weeks.

    I wasn't expecting Mrs May and the cabinet meeting yesterday to engage in can kicking, once they finally come to decision, I think it'll trigger the vote.
    What odds a vote of no confidence prior to say, Easter?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also, Soros is a cancer to western society. His attempts to undermine democracy all over the west should be called out and those wishing to silence his critics by accusing them of anti-Semitism are just as bad as he is. I don't dislike him because he's Jewish, I dislike him because of his support of open borders and ultra-leftist politics and his funding of disingenuous ultra-leftist groups.

    Max not accusing you of anything but do you take the same attitude towards those who constantly get accused of anti semitism for sticking up for the rights of Palestinians?
    depends a bit how much airtime they give the Palestinians relative to the rohingya, Syrians, Pakhtuns, etc etc etc.
    Ahh right...

    So I assume you never complain about racism in the Labour party because after all there are millions upon millions of other racists you must mention in your post first...

    Or do you only like throwing smears around without thinking about the consequences?

    Constant fake calls of anti semitism come with consequences, people kept pointing out how just calling people with concerns about immigration racist didn't help anybody, if anything it might have reinforced their views.

    There may have been racists also complaining about immigration but it just makes the problem worse if you pretend they are all racist because it suits your political viewpoint many people had genuine concerns.

    Just as many people have genuine concerns about the treatment of the Palestinians.
  • Mr. Urquhart, Trudeau's now claiming his 'peoplekind' nonsense was a joke. So far, peoplekind does not seem persuaded.

    Like McDonnell and his jokes, trudeau has form.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    edited February 2018

    Worth noting that all 3 party leaders did what Corbyn did but only Corbyn had the usual anti semitic attack line brought up.

    And Donald Trump. ;)

    Tbh, that pretty much sums up where we are with politics. We're far more concerned with virtue signalling than what our politicians actually think or do when they are in power.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695

    GIN1138 said:

    Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    White Wednesday as some of them call it.
    Do you still think Theresa will be out this week TSE? :D
    I expect a vote of confidence to be called within the next few weeks.

    I wasn't expecting Mrs May and the cabinet meeting yesterday to engage in can kicking, once they finally come to decision, I think it'll trigger the vote.
    Oh! :D
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also, Soros is a cancer to western society. His attempts to undermine democracy all over the west should be called out and those wishing to silence his critics by accusing them of anti-Semitism are just as bad as he is. I don't dislike him because he's Jewish, I dislike him because of his support of open borders and ultra-leftist politics and his funding of disingenuous ultra-leftist groups.

    Max not accusing you of anything but do you take the same attitude towards those who constantly get accused of anti semitism for sticking up for the rights of Palestinians?
    Can you provide any specific examples (I don't doubt there are, it'd just be nice to see some).
    Not sure which angle you'd like but I think this is quite a good one.

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/social-media-storm-breaks-over-corbyn-s-jew-free-holocaust-memorial-day-statement-1.457496

    ______________________________________
    Neither the Prime Minister nor the Lib Dems' Vince Cable made specific mention of Jews in their HMD statements.

    However opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn’s was singled out for excoriation on social media after it became apparent that the veteran left-winger had failed to mention Jews or antisemitism in his message.
    _______________________________________

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15901690.Apology_offered_to_Corbyn_amid_controversy_over_Holocaust_comments/

    --------------------------------------
    A longer message from the Labour leader, printed in a booklet for a Westminster service of commemoration, referred by name to Jewish Holocaust victims, including Anne Frank, as “our Jewish brothers and sisters”.

    Among critics of Mr Corbyn on Thursday was the editor of the Jewish Chronicle, Stephen Pollard, who was one of several Twitter users to draw a comparison with a similar message last year by Donald Trump.

    But after seeing the longer passage, Mr Pollard deleted his tweet, saying that the Labour leader’s words were “admirable”, and adding: “I owe Jeremy Corbyn an apology. His HMD statement on the day did not mention Jews. But this statement in the brochure clearly does.”
    ------------------------------------------

    Mr Pollard is probably one of Corbyn's biggest critics.

    Worth noting that all 3 party leaders did what Corbyn did but only Corbyn had the usual anti semitic attack line brought up.
    Have any of the other 3 leaders been paid by a brutal and anti-Semitic dictatorship as part of their propaganda operations?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    MaxPB said:

    Also, Soros is a cancer to western society. His attempts to undermine democracy all over the west should be called out and those wishing to silence his critics by accusing them of anti-Semitism are just as bad as he is. I don't dislike him because he's Jewish, I dislike him because of his support of open borders and ultra-leftist politics and his funding of disingenuous ultra-leftist groups.

    Max not accusing you of anything but do you take the same attitude towards those who constantly get accused of anti semitism for sticking up for the rights of Palestinians?
    You are ken Livingstone and I claim my £5.....
    Who was the guy who asked me to provide some proof?

    Here you go, I am accused of being Ken Livingstone (with the assumption being he is anti semitic) purely because I have mentioned Palestinian rights.

    Thanks Francis.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    I wasn't expecting Mrs May and the cabinet meeting yesterday to engage in can kicking, once they finally come to decision, I think it'll trigger the vote.

    You underestimated her.
    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/959551609180164096
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    How many secret plotters register with the Electoral Commission and make a press release?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Also, Soros is a cancer to western society. His attempts to undermine democracy all over the west should be called out and those wishing to silence his critics by accusing them of anti-Semitism are just as bad as he is. I don't dislike him because he's Jewish, I dislike him because of his support of open borders and ultra-leftist politics and his funding of disingenuous ultra-leftist groups.

    Max not accusing you of anything but do you take the same attitude towards those who constantly get accused of anti semitism for sticking up for the rights of Palestinians?
    depends a bit how much airtime they give the Palestinians relative to the rohingya, Syrians, Pakhtuns, etc etc etc.
    Ahh right...

    So I assume you never complain about racism in the Labour party because after all there are millions upon millions of other racists you must mention in your post first...

    Or do you only like throwing smears around without thinking about the consequences?

    Constant fake calls of anti semitism come with consequences, people kept pointing out how just calling people with concerns about immigration racist didn't help anybody, if anything it might have reinforced their views.

    There may have been racists also complaining about immigration but it just makes the problem worse if you pretend they are all racist because it suits your political viewpoint many people had genuine concerns.

    Just as many people have genuine concerns about the treatment of the Palestinians.
    Where are you getting "fake" from?
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Have any of the other 3 leaders been paid by a brutal and anti-Semitic dictatorship as part of their propaganda operations?
    ........................................................

    Conservative and Labour politicians appeared on Press TV.

    Also

    https://www.parliament.uk/edm/2010-12/1181

    Motion sponsored by Corbyn.

    So back to why Corbyn is an evil anti semite for doing what the Conservative and Lib Dems leaders did and how that is nothing to do with him sticking up for Palestinian rights....
  • TGOHF said:

    stodge said:

    Roger said:


    It's not "All about Brexit" but the difference between Labour being all square and them being down by 5 points IS all about Brexit. They punched above their potential while they were still the party of Remain. If they've lost that USP what are we left with?

    The problem is neither main party is homogenous. Around a quarter or a third of Conservative supporters backed REMAIN though they may now have seen the error of their ways and a quarter to a third of Labour supporters backed LEAVE.

    Both parties have substantial minorities to consider - the Conservatives will rely on innate loyalty and a fear of Corbyn to keep their REMAIN supporters on side.

    The other problem is when we leave the EU formally the REMAIN position becomes redundant unless it morphs into "in Government we will seek to re-negotiate a better deal for the UK than May and her group of blundering halfwits has accomplished".

    As 'Remain' is laid to rest, so 'Rejoin' will be born.
    Rejoin will be up there with "flat earth" .
    Give it 15 years.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    felix said:

    Ah yes more insults with a lashing of project fear. That's the way to win. I too voted Remain btw. I lost 20 % of my pension after the sterling slide. Life goes on and new doors open. Half empty glasses aren't moving the polls .

    Did you really though?

    Sterling is now back to the same level as it was with the dollar pre referendum while the FTSE and.other stocks are higher aren't they?

    So have you really lost?
    I believe he lives in Spain, so sterling income and euro expenses
  • Mr. Urquhart, Trudeau's now claiming his 'peoplekind' nonsense was a joke. So far, peoplekind does not seem persuaded.

    Was his interrupting a woman to mansplain to her in the name of gender equality a(n intentional) joke too?
  • Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    White Wednesday as some of them call it.
    Or as justin trudeau calls "all colours of the rainbow" Wednesday.
    Oi - Don't be colourist. What about brown or pink, to name but two. Dulux Wednesday
  • GIN1138 said:

    Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    White Wednesday as some of them call it.
    Do you still think Theresa will be out this week TSE? :D
    I expect a vote of confidence to be called within the next few weeks.

    I wasn't expecting Mrs May and the cabinet meeting yesterday to engage in can kicking, once they finally come to decision, I think it'll trigger the vote.
    What odds a vote of no confidence prior to say, Easter?
    Well Easter is the end of March, and Shadsy says the chances of a vote of confidence being called in 2018 is Evens so maybe 5/4? or 6/4?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    148grss said:

    I assume this is noise, as people aren't really thinking about an election right now? Even in the case of a "snap" election, polls without an election looming in the public mind are more just feelings towards parties than VI.

    I would like to suggest, though, that the Tories will likely underperform this at the upcoming local elections. I think LDs will make better gains in local Tory held seats than they have a chance at possibly doing nationally, and I don't know how much Corbyn becomes a weight on your local council candidate if he's knocked on your door a few times and done a middling to good campaign.

    I'd expect the locals to be a better snapshot of where the public really stand, although I am not willing to really put figures on who does well where. Just a thought that LDs will make gains at expense of Tories in the south, Labour will make gains from Tories in the south and north, Tories won't do as well as people might think. (I know in my leafy 'burb, f'rinstance, that the biggest issue for voters on the door is NHS and doctors; something Tories do not win votes on)

    Remember Ed Miliband won the 2014 Local Elections by 2% and UKIP got 17%. If this poll is anything like correct both the Tories and LDs could make gains and Labour could even lose seats
    I hope you are right, anything that focuses minds to hasten Corbyn's exit can't come too soon. Sadly that ship has probably sailed and we will be left with a bonkers hard left opposition for the remainder of my lifetime.

    The prospect outlined wouldn't be so bad if the government, for the next twenty or so years was likely to be anything other than gravely inadequate at best. For all the talk of Tom Tugenhadt or Johnny Mercer, what we will get is one or more of Davis, Gove, Johnson or JRM .

    Perhaps this demonstrates Nick Timothy's genius. Engineer a hung parliament opposed by a resurgent Jeremy Corbyn, allowing a takeover by Momentum to ensure Labour are hamstrung for a generation or two.
    Whatever happens in the local elections, Corbyn will lead Labour at the next general election
    Quite right! The 2022 Conservative landslide will also fail to move him. If the Grim Reaper comes calling some other unelectable Trotskyite dimwit will take his place.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    FF43 said:

    I can see people might be concerned about Jeremy Corbyn as PM and if you were rich enough you might think £55 000 is money well spent to help avoid that outcome. But enduring A WHOLE DAY with Theresa May is surely beyond the call of duty

    A Tory donor has paid £55,000 to spend a day with Theresa May, in an auction at the party’s annual Black and White fundraising ball.

    Or Tory grandees think £55k a day is worth paying to sit on her for a day and stop her doing something stupid? Like calling a can't lose election - and losing? Just a theory.....
  • Hey, Nigel 'Puppet master Soros, Jews have too much influence' Farage has joined the party.

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/961512562159439873

    I look forward to Nigel's thoughts on Arron Bank's influence.
  • I wasn't expecting Mrs May and the cabinet meeting yesterday to engage in can kicking, once they finally come to decision, I think it'll trigger the vote.

    You underestimated her.
    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/959551609180164096
    Indeed, normally I'm spot on Mrs May and her ineptness.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840



    Quite right! The 2022 Conservative landslide will also fail to move him. If the Grim Reaper comes calling some other unelectable Trotskyite dimwit will take his place.

    Yes Corbyn is a disaster so the Tories will get a landslide, you should probably just mention some stuff about the IRA and being a marxist or something....

  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Charles said:

    I believe he lives in Spain, so sterling income and euro expenses

    That's more down to the European sovereign debt crisis though. Look back 2009-2013, the rate was 1.10 to 1.20ish. It was only up at near 1.40 as a blip in 2015, and has settled back.

    http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=10Y

  • Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
  • Mr. Herdson, ah, 'mansplain'. I know you're using it daftly, but those using it seriously irk me. The idea that it's ok to make a thing bad by adding a male prefix is simply femsterical.

    Maybe I'm ovaryacting, but that's what I think.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Have any of the other 3 leaders been paid by a brutal and anti-Semitic dictatorship as part of their propaganda operations?
    ........................................................

    Conservative and Labour politicians appeared on Press TV.

    Also

    https://www.parliament.uk/edm/2010-12/1181

    Motion sponsored by Corbyn.

    So back to why Corbyn is an evil anti semite for doing what the Conservative and Lib Dems leaders did and how that is nothing to do with him sticking up for Palestinian rights....

    I think that there is a natural human tendency, if one sympathises with one side in a conflict, to demonise their opponents, and to overlook the faults of the side that one supports. That seems to be the case with some left wing supporters of the Palestinians.

    In addition, many people on the extreme right and extreme left hate Jews for being successful. There has been a huge influx of new members into the Labour party, some of whom are on the extreme left. The extreme right has not joined the Conservatives in anything like the same numbers.

    Finally, some Muslims hold undeniably anti-Semitic views, and Labour is their party of choice, for example, my ex-councillor in Luton https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/lutons-youngest-councillor-suspended-from-labour-party-over-antisemitic-tweets-a3221906.html
    They join Labour, not because its anti-Semitic, but because they see it as the best party to defend Muslim interests.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
    That's a bit like blaming the iceberg instead of the Captain of the Titanic.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    FF43 said:

    I can see people might be concerned about Jeremy Corbyn as PM and if you were rich enough you might think £55 000 is money well spent to help avoid that outcome. But enduring A WHOLE DAY with Theresa May is surely beyond the call of duty

    A Tory donor has paid £55,000 to spend a day with Theresa May, in an auction at the party’s annual Black and White fundraising ball.

    Or Tory grandees think £55k a day is worth paying to sit on her for a day and stop her doing something stupid? Like calling a can't lose election - and losing? Just a theory.....
    How in God's name can she let someone sit beside her with what's going on? Lord alone knows what beans he'll be able to spill!
    It's not effing take your daughter to work day!
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited February 2018

    Hey, Nigel 'Puppet master Soros, Jews have too much influence' Farage has joined the party.

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/961512562159439873

    I look forward to Nigel's thoughts on Arron Bank's influence.
    Arron Banks is a UK citizen seeking to influence UK decision making on Brexit. Soros isn't - so it's a little different. And Soros uses his billions elsewhere to influence policy in nations he is not a resident or a citizen of. I see no issue with people complaining about Rupert Murdochs influence - and presumably doing so doesn't make you anti Christian?

    I also assumed we were against foreign parties interfering in our democratic processes - or is just ok when they back remain?

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
    That's a bit like blaming the iceberg instead of the Captain of the Titanic.
    May thought she could negotiate with the iceberg on equal terms...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited February 2018
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
    That's a bit like blaming the iceberg instead of the Captain of the Titanic.
    Icebergs are increasingly irrelevant to trade these days due to advancements in technology.

    Bit like the EU.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    I wasn't expecting Mrs May and the cabinet meeting yesterday to engage in can kicking, once they finally come to decision, I think it'll trigger the vote.

    You underestimated her.
    https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/959551609180164096
    Indeed, normally I'm spot on Mrs May and her ineptness.
    Theresa 'Cunctator' May rides again.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    brendan16 said:

    Hey, Nigel 'Puppet master Soros, Jews have too much influence' Farage has joined the party.

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/961512562159439873

    I look forward to Nigel's thoughts on Arron Bank's influence.
    Arron Banks is a UK citizen seeking to influence UK decision making on Brexit. Soros isn't - so it's a little different.
    What do you think about the Belizean connections of the Leave campaign?

    https://thepinprick.com/2017/12/11/daydream-belizers-brexit-big-sugar-and-the-strange-case-of-andy-wigmore/
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    Your own imagery is a bit more revealing than you perhaps think. "Futie last stand" implies that you hope or expect that Barnier will wring the UK's neck like a chicken.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
    That's a bit like blaming the iceberg instead of the Captain of the Titanic.
    Icebergs aren't increasingly irrelevant to trade these days due to advancements in technology.

    Bit like the EU.
    Mate your analogy and syntax is all over the shop there.

    Take a breath and repost, or edit.
  • Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
    The EU are frustrated because Mrs May won’t answer their question to what kind of relationship do we want ?

    She just mouths meaningless platitudes.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583



    Quite right! The 2022 Conservative landslide will also fail to move him. If the Grim Reaper comes calling some other unelectable Trotskyite dimwit will take his place.

    Yes Corbyn is a disaster so the Tories will get a landslide, you should probably just mention some stuff about the IRA and being a marxist or something....

    I have fought the likes of Corbyn from within the Labour Party for years. Since his election there is no point!

    Yes you are taking the piss, but that doesn't delegitimise the concerns that he has opposed the State of Israel, which ipso facto makes him anti-Semitic. He has walked hand-hand with the vilest Republican murderers which means he tacitly supported the atrocities in Birmingham, in Guildford, at Harrods, on Horseguards Parade. Everyone knew this within Labour, but instead of throwing him out along with the likes of Hatton and Nellist he was allowed to stay and flourish. The Labour Party's embrace of this foul character means it deserves the route to oblivion down which Corbyn will lead it.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Mr. Herdson, ah, 'mansplain'. I know you're using it daftly, but those using it seriously irk me. The idea that it's ok to make a thing bad by adding a male prefix is simply femsterical.

    Maybe I'm ovaryacting, but that's what I think.

    :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    148grss said:

    I assume this is noise, as people aren't really thinking about an election right now? Even in the case of a "snap" election, polls without an election looming in the public mind are more just feelings towards parties than VI.

    I would like to suggest, though, that the Tories will likely underperform this at the upcoming local elections. I think LDs will make better gains in local Tory held seats than they have a chance at possibly doing nationally, and I don't know how much Corbyn becomes a weight on your local council candidate if he's knocked on your door a few times and done a middling to good campaign.

    I'd expect the locals to be a better snapshot of where the public really stand, although I am not willing to really put figures on who does well where. Just a thought that LDs will make gains at expense of Tories in the south, Labour will make gains from Tories in the south and north, Tories won't do as well as people might think. (I know in my leafy 'burb, f'rinstance, that the biggest issue for voters on the door is NHS and doctors; something Tories do not win votes on)

    Remember Ed Miliband won the 2014 Local Elections by 2% and UKIP got 17%. If this poll is anything like correct both the Tories and LDs could make gains and Labour could even lose seats
    I hope you are right, anything that focuses minds to hasten Corbyn's exit can't come too soon. Sadly that ship has probably sailed and we will be left with a bonkers hard left opposition for the remainder of my lifetime.

    The prospect outlined wouldn't be so bad if the government, for the next twenty or so years was likely to be anything other than gravely inadequate at best. For all the talk of Tom Tugenhadt or Johnny Mercer, what we will get is one or more of Davis, Gove, Johnson or JRM .

    Perhaps this demonstrates Nick Timothy's genius. Engineer a hung parliament opposed by a resurgent Jeremy Corbyn, allowing a takeover by Momentum to ensure Labour are hamstrung for a generation or two.
    Whatever happens in the local elections, Corbyn will lead Labour at the next general election
    Quite right! The 2022 Conservative landslide will also fail to move him. If the Grim Reaper comes calling some other unelectable Trotskyite dimwit will take his place.
    I think Corbyn would go if it was a Tory landslide or even a narrow Tory win, I think it is PM or bust for him next time but he could get the job even without winning most seats and until the next general election he is safe
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    Your own imagery is a bit more revealing than you perhaps think. "Futie last stand" implies that you hope or expect that Barnier will wring the UK's neck like a chicken.
    It's what Brexiteers secretly desire in order to legitimise our membership of the EU. The nagging feeling of "who won the war anyway?" prevented them from coming to terms with it, but losing the Brexit will provide the cathartic release they need.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    GIN1138 said:

    Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    White Wednesday as some of them call it.
    Do you still think Theresa will be out this week TSE? :D
    I expect a vote of confidence to be called within the next few weeks.

    I wasn't expecting Mrs May and the cabinet meeting yesterday to engage in can kicking, once they finally come to decision, I think it'll trigger the vote.
    These surprisingly good Tory polls have probably killed off any no confidence vote until at least the local elections and given the fact Ed Miliband beat Cameron in the 2014 local elections May might even shore up her position then which would take her through until Brexit is completed before the sharks start circling again. Next year's locals were last up in 2015 when the Tories won so are likely to be much higher risk for May
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    Your own imagery is a bit more revealing than you perhaps think. "Futie last stand" implies that you hope or expect that Barnier will wring the UK's neck like a chicken.
    It's what Brexiteers secretly desire in order to legitimise our membership of the EU. The nagging feeling of "who won the war anyway?" prevented them from coming to terms with it, but losing the Brexit will provide the cathartic release they need.
    William! Such a wag :).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited February 2018

    Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
    The EU are frustrated because Mrs May won’t answer their question to what kind of relationship do we want ?

    She just mouths meaningless platitudes.
    We want a FTA that ends free movement and ideally has something on services too as has been clear for months
  • FF43 said:

    I can see people might be concerned about Jeremy Corbyn as PM and if you were rich enough you might think £55 000 is money well spent to help avoid that outcome. But enduring A WHOLE DAY with Theresa May is surely beyond the call of duty

    A Tory donor has paid £55,000 to spend a day with Theresa May, in an auction at the party’s annual Black and White fundraising ball.

    My thought entirely. The 'home-cooked dinner with the environment secretary, Michael Gove, and his wife, Sarah Vine, at their west London home' sounds a lot more fun..
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    I think that there is a natural human tendency, if one sympathises with one side in a conflict, to demonise their opponents, and to overlook the faults of the side that one supports. That seems to be the case with some left wing supporters of the Palestinians.

    In addition, many people on the extreme right and extreme left hate Jews for being successful. There has been a huge influx of new members into the Labour party, some of whom are on the extreme left. The extreme right has not joined the Conservatives in anything like the same numbers.

    Finally, some Muslims hold undeniably anti-Semitic views, and Labour is their party of choice, for example, my ex-councillor in Luton https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/lutons-youngest-councillor-suspended-from-labour-party-over-antisemitic-tweets-a3221906.html
    They join Labour, not because its anti-Semitic, but because they see it as the best party to defend Muslim interests.
    .....................................

    I'd agree with some of that*. Both sides have appealed to groups further from the centre than usual. Just as legitimate criticism of Israel can attract anti semitic nutters criticism of immigration can attract racist nutters. Labour has had a much bigger increase in numbers but that came largely from members it had lost over the years or parties like the Greens.

    Also it has just been there for a while anyway, Ken was in Labour prior to Corbyn and the disputes panel which suspended him was nothing to do with Corbyn, the MP Naz Shah was picked long before Corbyn. My main point is it is only an issue now because Corbyn stands up for Palestinian rights.

    The main bit I'd disagree with the very first bit, obviously not the place for an Israel Palestine debate but I can't imagine any set of people who wouldn't have fought back in the Palestinians case.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    FF43 said:

    I can see people might be concerned about Jeremy Corbyn as PM and if you were rich enough you might think £55 000 is money well spent to help avoid that outcome. But enduring A WHOLE DAY with Theresa May is surely beyond the call of duty

    A Tory donor has paid £55,000 to spend a day with Theresa May, in an auction at the party’s annual Black and White fundraising ball.

    My thought entirely. The 'home-cooked dinner with the environment secretary, Michael Gove, and his wife, Sarah Vine, at their west London home' sounds a lot more fun..
    Presumably you at least get to join the PM's motorcade for the day, something a bit more unique than roast lamb at chez Gove
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    FF43 said:

    I can see people might be concerned about Jeremy Corbyn as PM and if you were rich enough you might think £55 000 is money well spent to help avoid that outcome. But enduring A WHOLE DAY with Theresa May is surely beyond the call of duty

    A Tory donor has paid £55,000 to spend a day with Theresa May, in an auction at the party’s annual Black and White fundraising ball.

    My thought entirely. The 'home-cooked dinner with the environment secretary, Michael Gove, and his wife, Sarah Vine, at their west London home' sounds a lot more fun..
    It's probably worth £65,000 to give whoever wins that one to put some kind of listening device in the sitting room while they're there.
  • HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
    The EU are frustrated because Mrs May won’t answer their question to what kind of relationship do we want ?

    She just mouths meaningless platitudes.
    We want a FTA that ends free movement and ideally has something on services too as has been clear for months
    A meaningless platitude, please flesh out what that means in practice.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Charles said:

    felix said:

    Ah yes more insults with a lashing of project fear. That's the way to win. I too voted Remain btw. I lost 20 % of my pension after the sterling slide. Life goes on and new doors open. Half empty glasses aren't moving the polls .

    Did you really though?

    Sterling is now back to the same level as it was with the dollar pre referendum while the FTSE and.other stocks are higher aren't they?

    So have you really lost?
    I believe he lives in Spain, so sterling income and euro expenses
    Correct.
  • Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
    The EU are frustrated because Mrs May won’t answer their question to what kind of relationship do we want ?

    She just mouths meaningless platitudes.
    She can't answer the question in isolation, and especially not in public, because it depends on what they are willing to grant and on what terms, and because whatever she says would immediately become the maximum she could ever get. In a negotiation, you have to trade concessions, not state in advance what you want as your final settlement.
  • HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Freud would have a field day with the Brexiteers. Not content with seeking out a futile last stand against Brussels, they've now decided to give the bête noire of Black Wednesday a starring role in their psychodrama.

    White Wednesday as some of them call it.
    Do you still think Theresa will be out this week TSE? :D
    I expect a vote of confidence to be called within the next few weeks.

    I wasn't expecting Mrs May and the cabinet meeting yesterday to engage in can kicking, once they finally come to decision, I think it'll trigger the vote.
    These surprisingly good Tory polls have probably killed off any no confidence vote until at least the local elections and given the fact Ed Miliband beat Cameron in the 2014 local elections May might even shore up her position then which would take her through until Brexit is completed before the sharks start circling again. Next year's locals were last up in 2015 when the Tories won so are likely to be much higher risk for May
    In October 2003 YouGov had the Tories leading Labour by 5%, within a few weeks IDS was ousted.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Andrew said:

    Charles said:

    I believe he lives in Spain, so sterling income and euro expenses

    That's more down to the European sovereign debt crisis though. Look back 2009-2013, the rate was 1.10 to 1.20ish. It was only up at near 1.40 as a blip in 2015, and has settled back.

    http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=10Y

    Ahem - it was above 1.30 for about 2 years and would probably have held above 1.25 without Brexit. But yes currencies rise and fall and life goes on.
  • Charles said:

    felix said:

    Ah yes more insults with a lashing of project fear. That's the way to win. I too voted Remain btw. I lost 20 % of my pension after the sterling slide. Life goes on and new doors open. Half empty glasses aren't moving the polls .

    Did you really though?

    Sterling is now back to the same level as it was with the dollar pre referendum while the FTSE and.other stocks are higher aren't they?

    So have you really lost?
    I believe he lives in Spain, so sterling income and euro expenses
    That makes sense but still pensions etc income [unless already turned into an annuity] are frequently linked to stocks like the FTSE. So while the drop in sterling may have caused a decrease in currency for the same pension output - an increase in stocks should surely have mitigated against that?
  • Question for PBers.

    What's the best hotel in Cardiff?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
    That's a bit like blaming the iceberg instead of the Captain of the Titanic.
    No - it really isn't.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Yes you are taking the piss, but that doesn't delegitimise the concerns that he has opposed the State of Israel, which ipso facto makes him anti-Semitic.
    ........................................................................

    If you gave a damn about anti semitism you wouldn't throw around fake claims.

    The boy who cried wolf is a very useful story, I suggest you read it and learn from it, unless of course you don't actually care about anti semitism but are happy to see its meaning rendered inert for cheap political points.

    .......................................................
    He has walked hand-hand with the vilest Republican murderers which means he tacitly supported the atrocities in Birmingham, in Guildford, at Harrods, on Horseguards Parade.
    ...................................................

    Him, the Queen, the Tories, Thatcher, Blair. The lot of them.

    ...................................................
    Everyone knew this within Labour, but instead of throwing him out along with the likes of Hatton and Nellist he was allowed to stay and flourish. The Labour Party's embrace of this foul character means it deserves the route to oblivion down which Corbyn will lead it.
    ...................................................

    Click your heels together 3 times and repeat 'Conservative landslide, Conservative landslide'
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    felix said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    This is absurd.
    Prevaricating is not the same thing as playing cards close to your chest. Those who have to make investment decisions based on what happens next year still have nothing to go on.
    The government's own assessments published this week show the possibility of massive hits to the UK's car industry (look at the forecasts for the North East and West Midlands under FTA or WTO conditions...)

    Yes, it is possible that everything might just turn out OK, but it is at least equally possible that it could be dire. And up until now we have barely engaged in negotiations.

    You are right, except that you assign blame to the wrong side. Tell me: is it the EU or the UK which for the last 18 months has been refusing to start negotiations on the future relationship?
    That's a bit like blaming the iceberg instead of the Captain of the Titanic.
    No - it really isn't.
    Yes it is.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    FF43 said:

    I can see people might be concerned about Jeremy Corbyn as PM and if you were rich enough you might think £55 000 is money well spent to help avoid that outcome. But enduring A WHOLE DAY with Theresa May is surely beyond the call of duty

    A Tory donor has paid £55,000 to spend a day with Theresa May, in an auction at the party’s annual Black and White fundraising ball.

    My thought entirely. The 'home-cooked dinner with the environment secretary, Michael Gove, and his wife, Sarah Vine, at their west London home' sounds a lot more fun..
    I dont think its just the rich who are concerned about Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn did quite badly with the working class in 2017.

    My concern about Corbyn is that he associates Labour with hard left posturing and incompetence. He will damage Labour beyond repair, and in the unlikely event of him ever getting his hands on power he would crash the economy so spectacularly it would pave the way for decades of Tory rule.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited February 2018
  • Question for PBers.

    What's the best hotel in Cardiff?

    Claridges, followed by the 7.15 from Paddington.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:




    Constant fake calls of anti semitism come with consequences
    Fake allegations of anti-semitism are a bad thing. Of course. And being in favour of the Palestinians having a right to a state does not make one anti-semitic. Nor does criticism of Israel.

    What you choose to ignore, though, is that support for Palestinians does not require one to support Holocaust deniers or those who use in public language ancient anti-Jewish blood libels. And being a Holocaust denier undoubtedly makes one an anti-semite. Using ancient blood libels against Jews also makes one anti-semitic.

    Corbyn has done neither of these things. I do not think he personally is anti-semitic.

    But he has chosen to associate himself pretty closely with Holocaust deniers and anti-semites. He travelled as a backbencher to visit Assad with a Palestinian group which explicitly denied that the Holocaust happened. Why that group of Palestinians? There are plenty of Palestinians who are not Holocaust deniers but Corbyn chose to travel with a group who were Holocaust deniers. That does not say much about his judgment.

    Similarly Corbyn, as a backbencher, chose to invite to Britain Raed Salah, a man convicted of incitement to hatred of Jews because of his blood libel remarks, saying that his was a voice that should be heard in Parliament. A convicted anti-semite should be heard. Really?Of all the Palestinians Corbyn picked this one.

    When a man does this then it is legitimate to query whether he really understands the effect of his actions, whether it is in the best interests of the Palestinians themselves for their British supporters to be associated with Holocaust deniers and anti-semites, whether he really understands how troubling this is to Jewish communities here (and others) at a time when Jews have been the target of Islamist terrorism, whether he is really setting the right tone in his party given the number of instances of party members who have come out with some really offensive and anti-semitic abuse against Jews in general and Jewish MPs in particular.

    And to be clear I condemn anti-semitism when it comes from the right as well. To suggest that Soros is some sort of Jewish puppeteer pulling strings with his money is disgraceful. He can spend his money how he likes. He is entitled to have a view on Brexit though one might politely inquire of him what business it is of his given that he is neither British nor living here.
  • Mr. M, that's grossly unfair to Quintus Fabius Maximus, whose delaying strategy was precisely what Rome needed at the time.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited February 2018
    rkrkrk said:

    Pong said:

    rkrkrk said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting to note the number of Labour supporters on Twitter who are reacting to the recent polls by saying "We were 25% behind last time and nearly won, so we can do it again next time".

    Yes - I don’t think poor polling is going to help those who want Corbyn gone.
    It’s obviously silly to expect another 25 point swing - but I think the arguments that he is electoral poison/disaster/suicide have been disproven.
    Given the swing is entirely among women, is it possible May's tough line on the sexual assault stuff has cut through?
    Could be.
    Normal caveats about sub samples - but I guess men and women are quite-large sub samples(!?)
    Yes

    It could well be that her kick-out-and-shame-the-pervs #metoo stance is detoxing the TM-led tory party with the group who previously disliked her (and the tories) the most:

    Young, young(ish) & middle-aged women.

    lol

    Need tables.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Charles said:

    felix said:

    Ah yes more insults with a lashing of project fear. That's the way to win. I too voted Remain btw. I lost 20 % of my pension after the sterling slide. Life goes on and new doors open. Half empty glasses aren't moving the polls .

    Did you really though?

    Sterling is now back to the same level as it was with the dollar pre referendum while the FTSE and.other stocks are higher aren't they?

    So have you really lost?
    I believe he lives in Spain, so sterling income and euro expenses
    That makes sense but still pensions etc income [unless already turned into an annuity] are frequently linked to stocks like the FTSE. So while the drop in sterling may have caused a decrease in currency for the same pension output - an increase in stocks should surely have mitigated against that?
    I have a teacher's pension and the rules are it is paid in sterling by the UIK government and taxed in the UK. It is transferred by the TPA to my Spanish bank monthly at business exchange rate. when the £ goes down so does the pension and v-v. Brexit had an impact but my pension is more than adequate for living here even at a rate well below parity which we have not yet seen. and of course I now have substantial euro investments here which are doing pretty well. I do not claim to have suffered unlike many here who exist solely on the UK state pension and for whom the sterling drop was a much bigger deal. However, I accept the democratic result and like many now just want to move on on the best terms possible. In short life is way too short to agonise over a democratic decision.,
  • Question for PBers.

    What's the best hotel in Cardiff?

    Claridges, followed by the 7.15 from Paddington.
    Not really an option.

    Last train out of Cardiff to Paddington is 9pm and our event doesn't finish until midnight.
  • So UK growth to be 1.8% and French growth to be 1.7%. Make of that what you will.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Mr. M, that's grossly unfair to Quintus Fabius Maximus, whose delaying strategy was precisely what Rome needed at the time.

    It's a pity that Varro didn't heed his advice.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Hope the PBTories celebrating this poll are lobbying CCHQ for an early election :D
  • Hey, Nigel 'Puppet master Soros, Jews have too much influence' Farage has joined the party.

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/961512562159439873

    I look forward to Nigel's thoughts on Arron Bank's influence.
    I'm a reasonable man, I look forward to nothing more than clarity where some parts of the Leave campaign got their money in the first place.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited February 2018
    Given that is more than Leadsom got in 2016 when she got to the final 2 by winning 84 MPs in the 2nd round (albeit dropping out) if Mogg stood and got almost 90 MPs voting for him he would go to the membership vote and likely win it on the latest Conservative Home Tory members poll where he is in front.

    Prepare for Mogg v Corbyn then!
  • FF43 said:

    I can see people might be concerned about Jeremy Corbyn as PM and if you were rich enough you might think £55 000 is money well spent to help avoid that outcome. But enduring A WHOLE DAY with Theresa May is surely beyond the call of duty

    A Tory donor has paid £55,000 to spend a day with Theresa May, in an auction at the party’s annual Black and White fundraising ball.

    My thought entirely. The 'home-cooked dinner with the environment secretary, Michael Gove, and his wife, Sarah Vine, at their west London home' sounds a lot more fun..
    The oddest-sounding is Another auction lot was a chance to “walk in the footsteps of Churchill” by having dinner with the defence secretary, Gavin Williamson, in the Churchill war rooms, which reportedly went for £30,000 since the most natural interpretations must be ruled out. Churchill never met Gavin Williamson, and nor did he munch from a packet of chips while strolling down the corridors of the cabinet war rooms. There was not enough space to stroll, for a start.

    The book Dinner With Churchill provides details, including menus and guest lists, of Churchill's wartime entertainment at various summits. Churchill frequently had the king to dinner in Downing Street; then there was Chequers; and his own dining club:

    The Other Club, a dining club, was founded in 1911 by Winston Churchill and his very good friend, F.E. Smith, a member of the Conservative Party at a time when Churchill was a Liberal, to accommodate the men they deemed worthy of joining. The Pinafore Room at the Savoy was the location then as it is today. Churchill always sat in the middle of one of the longer sides of the table.

    Stelzer, Cita. Dinner with Churchill: Policy-Making at the Dinner Table
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    So UK growth to be 1.8% and French growth to be 1.7%. Make of that what you will.

    I'll give an assessment when they are actual performances rather than projections.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    But he has chosen to associate himself pretty closely with Holocaust deniers and anti-semites. He travelled as a backbencher to visit Assad with a Palestinian group which explicitly denied that the Holocaust happened. Why that group of Palestinians? There are plenty of Palestinians who are not Holocaust deniers but Corbyn chose to travel with a group who were Holocaust deniers. That does not say much about his judgment.
    ................................................

    I imagine if you chose to only specifically talk to the elements of Palestinian society which are pure of any anti semitism you would end up ignoring a large (and important in terms of the conflict) section of Palestinian society and get nowhere.

    Of course Ignoring them because they were beyond the pale is what some did with Arafat and his organisation. So we refused to do much and let the situation fester, because they were beyond the pale.

    Hamas eventually won over in Gaza, arguably more extreme than what came before them.

    Now we can continue the 'ohh no beyond the pale' routine whilst the Israeli's continue to enforce conditions onto the Palestinians which make their views even more extreme.

    The idea that we support Israel continuing it's actions whilst waiting for the Palestinian Nelson Mandela is foolish, Israel would have taken him out.

    Palestinians should not be anti semitic but having their homes taken from them, their land stolen and living under an almost constant terror campaign for decades the reality is a lot of them are and sticking our heads in the sand is easy but will just makes things worse.

    The people the British government talked to in Ireland had reprehensible views, there were much nicer more morally pure the government could have talked to instead... but they weren't the people the government needed to talk to. They had to talk to the bad people.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    HYUFD said:

    Given that is more than Leadsom got in 2016 when she got to the final 2 by wining 84 MPs in the 2nd round (albeit dropping out) if Mogg stood and got almost 90 MPs voting for him he would go to the membership vote and likely win it on the latest Conservative Home Tory members poll where he is in front.

    Prepare for Mogg v Corbyn then!
    Looks like I had better break the habit of a lifetime and join a political party to assist in maintaining sanity.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited February 2018
    philiph said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given that is more than Leadsom got in 2016 when she got to the final 2 by wining 84 MPs in the 2nd round (albeit dropping out) if Mogg stood and got almost 90 MPs voting for him he would go to the membership vote and likely win it on the latest Conservative Home Tory members poll where he is in front.

    Prepare for Mogg v Corbyn then!
    Looks like I had better break the habit of a lifetime and join a political party to assist in maintaining sanity.
    Join ASAP.

    The Tory rules don't allow for JCLs or infiltrators.

    You need to be a member for at least three months to have a vote in the leadership contest.

    Edit - Here's the link

    https://www.conservatives.com/join
  • Mr. M, ahem, that was Paullus, whose advice Varro ignored :p
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Hey, Nigel 'Puppet master Soros, Jews have too much influence' Farage has joined the party.

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/961512562159439873

    I look forward to Nigel's thoughts on Arron Bank's influence.
    I'm a reasonable man, I look forward to nothing more than clarity where some parts of the Leave campaign got their money in the first place.
    The Elders of Zion.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    philiph said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given that is more than Leadsom got in 2016 when she got to the final 2 by wining 84 MPs in the 2nd round (albeit dropping out) if Mogg stood and got almost 90 MPs voting for him he would go to the membership vote and likely win it on the latest Conservative Home Tory members poll where he is in front.

    Prepare for Mogg v Corbyn then!
    Looks like I had better break the habit of a lifetime and join a political party to assist in maintaining sanity.
    Join ASAP.

    The Tory rules don't allow for JCLs or infiltrators.

    You need to be a member for at least three months to have a vote in the leadership contest.

    Edit - Here's the link

    https://www.conservatives.com/join
    I thought about doing that in early 2016 when a leadership contest was on the horizon, but the price was ridiculous (is it still about £25?).

    Plus, as we saw last time, there's no guarantee with the Tories that the contest will even get to a membership ballot.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    philiph said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given that is more than Leadsom got in 2016 when she got to the final 2 by wining 84 MPs in the 2nd round (albeit dropping out) if Mogg stood and got almost 90 MPs voting for him he would go to the membership vote and likely win it on the latest Conservative Home Tory members poll where he is in front.

    Prepare for Mogg v Corbyn then!
    Looks like I had better break the habit of a lifetime and join a political party to assist in maintaining sanity.
    Join ASAP.

    The Tory rules don't allow for JCLs or infiltrators.

    You need to be a member for at least three months to have a vote in the leadership contest.

    Edit - Here's the link

    https://www.conservatives.com/join
    Then you read this https://order-order.com/2018/02/08/tories-move-to-impose-candidates-centrally-and-break-constituency-association-link/ and ask the simple question

    'In which Universe should the Conservative Party be supporting, practicing, developing and encouraging Centralisation?'
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    But he has chosen to associate himself pretty closely with Holocaust deniers and anti-semites. He travelled as a backbencher to visit Assad with a Palestinian group which explicitly denied that the Holocaust happened. Why that group of Palestinians? There are plenty of Palestinians who are not Holocaust deniers but Corbyn chose to travel with a group who were Holocaust deniers. That does not say much about his judgment.
    ................................................

    I imagine if you chose to only specifically talk to the elements of Palestinian society which are pure of any anti semitism you would end up ignoring a large (and important in terms of the conflict) section of Palestinian society and get nowhere.

    Of course Ignoring them because they were beyond the pale is what some did with Arafat and his organisation. So we refused to do much and let the situation fester, because they were beyond the pale.

    Hamas eventually won over in Gaza, arguably more extreme than what came before them.

    Now we can continue the 'ohh no beyond the pale' routine whilst the Israeli's continue to enforce conditions onto the Palestinians which make their views even more extreme.

    The idea that we support Israel continuing it's actions whilst waiting for the Palestinian Nelson Mandela is foolish, Israel would have taken him out.

    Palestinians should not be anti semitic but having their homes taken from them, their land stolen and living under an almost constant terror campaign for decades the reality is a lot of them are and sticking our heads in the sand is easy but will just makes things worse.

    The people the British government talked to in Ireland had reprehensible views, there were much nicer more morally pure the government could have talked to instead... but they weren't the people the government needed to talk to. They had to talk to the bad people.

    Much turns on the purpose of talking with bad people. Do you talk with them in order to try to persuade them not to be bad people, or do you talk with them because you want to be their advocate?
  • Question for PBers.

    What's the best hotel in Cardiff?

    The St David's Hotel..but it isn't central. It is Cardiff Bay.
  • Danny565 said:

    philiph said:

    HYUFD said:

    Given that is more than Leadsom got in 2016 when she got to the final 2 by wining 84 MPs in the 2nd round (albeit dropping out) if Mogg stood and got almost 90 MPs voting for him he would go to the membership vote and likely win it on the latest Conservative Home Tory members poll where he is in front.

    Prepare for Mogg v Corbyn then!
    Looks like I had better break the habit of a lifetime and join a political party to assist in maintaining sanity.
    Join ASAP.

    The Tory rules don't allow for JCLs or infiltrators.

    You need to be a member for at least three months to have a vote in the leadership contest.

    Edit - Here's the link

    https://www.conservatives.com/join
    I thought about doing that in early 2016 when a leadership contest was on the horizon, but the price was ridiculous (is it still about £25?).

    Plus, as we saw last time, there's no guarantee with the Tories that the contest will even get to a membership ballot.
    It's £25 per year or £2.09 per month via Direct Debit.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Much turns on the purpose of talking with bad people. Do you talk with them in order to try to persuade them not to be bad people, or do you talk with them because you want to be their advocate?
    ...............................................

    In the case of the Northern Irish and the Palestinians, both. How else are you going to end the conflict but by helping fix the underlying causes of it.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited February 2018

    Question for PBers.

    What's the best hotel in Cardiff?

    Claridges, followed by the 7.15 from Paddington.
    Not really an option.

    Last train out of Cardiff to Paddington is 9pm and our event doesn't finish until midnight.
    Jurys and Marriott both spitting distance from Central Station, ditto Radisson Blu (as are a huge Premier Inn, and the IBIS -if lawyers know of the existence of such chains?). Park Plaza about a mile out.

    For boutiquey I've heard good things about Jolyons down the Bay opposite the Milennium Centre, but you'd need a taxi unless you're going to walk to Butetown from the city centre (hint - don't).

  • Question for PBers.

    What's the best hotel in Cardiff?

    The St David's Hotel..but it isn't central. It is Cardiff Bay.
    Ta, it's taxiable, so it'll be fine
  • HYUFD said:

    Given that is more than Leadsom got in 2016 when she got to the final 2 by winning 84 MPs in the 2nd round (albeit dropping out) if Mogg stood and got almost 90 MPs voting for him he would go to the membership vote
    Not necessarily. You need one-third of the votes to be assured of a second-round place. In 2001, Portillo missed out on the members' vote despite receiving the backing of 32% of MPs - the equivalent of 101 with today's larger parliamentary party.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Question for PBers.

    What's the best hotel in Cardiff?

    Claridges, followed by the 7.15 from Paddington.
    :smiley:
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Question for PBers.

    What's the best hotel in Cardiff?

    Claridges, followed by the 7.15 from Paddington.
    Not really an option.

    Last train out of Cardiff to Paddington is 9pm and our event doesn't finish until midnight.
    That’s what chauffeurs are for
  • HYUFD said:

    Given that is more than Leadsom got in 2016 when she got to the final 2 by winning 84 MPs in the 2nd round (albeit dropping out) if Mogg stood and got almost 90 MPs voting for him he would go to the membership vote
    Not necessarily. You need one-third of the votes to be assured of a second-round place. In 2001, Portillo missed out on the members' vote despite receiving the backing of 32% of MPs - the equivalent of 101 with today's larger parliamentary party.
    It was a remarkably efficient Anyone-But-Portillo vote that year.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Charles said:

    Question for PBers.

    What's the best hotel in Cardiff?

    Claridges, followed by the 7.15 from Paddington.
    :smiley:
    Don't think you can get a pint of Brain's dark in Claridges, so that should rule that out of all right thinking people's minds there and then really.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Mr. M, ahem, that was Paullus, whose advice Varro ignored :p

    I thought Paullus was merely relaying Fabius's view, but I shall stand corrected.
  • HYUFD said:

    Given that is more than Leadsom got in 2016 when she got to the final 2 by winning 84 MPs in the 2nd round (albeit dropping out) if Mogg stood and got almost 90 MPs voting for him he would go to the membership vote
    Not necessarily. You need one-third of the votes to be assured of a second-round place. In 2001, Portillo missed out on the members' vote despite receiving the backing of 32% of MPs - the equivalent of 101 with today's larger parliamentary party.
    Indeed, and of course it should be remembered that this particular electorate is famed for manoeuvering to stop particular candidates. I'd expect the 'Stop Boris' campaign to be fairly strong, but the 'Stop JRM' campaign would be stronger still. So I suspect that there might be some vote-trading from whoever is the non-ultra candidate.
This discussion has been closed.