Would things have been any different negotiation wise had May won her desired majority? After all that appeared to be the stated aim of the election - to strengthen her hand
The stated aim of GE2017 was to win a mandate for May's Brexit, but as she said nothing at all on the subject (or on any other) during the campaign, you would need to read the manifesto -- which does not seem to have produced unanimity within the Cabinet, probably because it just repeats the slogans "smooth and orderly" and "strong and stable" umpteen times. So my best guess is that if May had won a landslide, there'd just be more MPs in each faction, since there was nothing in the campaign to bind them to any single policy more specific than a strong, stable, smooth orderly Brexit.
The EU don't appear to believe an Englishman's word is his bond i guess.
When David Davis says, immediately after agreeing a bunch of stuff in December, that it wasn't legally binding, you would expect the other side to "lack good faith" and be "discourteous".
Davis was absolutely right then and now. Until such times as there gas been an agreement on the whole A50 process nothing is legally binding and nor should it be. Barrier wants to bank concessions whilst refusing to deal with the main issues. It needs to be made clear yet again that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Technically Davis was to correct to say the interim agreement was not legally binding. The context to his remarks however were to imply that he was prepared to backtrack on commitments he had made in the agreement. That's an example of the bad faith he accuses the EU side of. Actually sanctions on breach of a treaty are perfectly normal and not in "bad faith" unless they are unreasonable ones, eg sanctions on unavoidable outcomes.
It's just the process of negotiating. It seems to be a foreign language, unspoken by most on here.
As for the sacred nature of the Treaty? You're having a laugh. Ask the French about sanctions when you break a Treaty.....they'll just smirk.
Germany has the most infringements at present - 57. France is 3rd.
We’re going to crash out in March 2019 with no deal onto WTO terms becauit accse we’ve run out of time.
It’ll be fun.
That would be a major setback for Theresa May. The one thing she has done as PM is to set up the expectation of a deal going into Brexit and that expectation accounted for her brief poll boost at the end of last year. I think she will do the deal come hell or high water.
Would things have been any different negotiation wise had May won her desired majority? After all that appeared to be the stated aim of the election - to strengthen her hand
She perhaps could have sacked Johnson and some of the incompetents.
As it is, she’s too scared to be rolled.
What that would have meant for negotiations is difficult to determine. Presumably, more confidence in pursuing a “soft” Brexit. Having said that, her position for end state has been clear since Florence. FTA and no ECJ.
The EU don't appear to believe an Englishman's word is his bond i guess.
When David Davis says, immediately after agreeing a bunch of stuff in December, that it wasn't legally binding, you would expect the other side to "lack good faith" and be "discourteous".
Davis was absolutely right then and now. Until such times as there gas been an agreement on the whole A50 process nothing is legally binding and nor should it be. Barrier wants to bank concessions whilst refusing to deal with the main issues. It needs to be made clear yet again that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Technically Davis was to correct to say the interim agreement was not legally binding. The context to his remarks however were to imply that he was prepared to backtrack on commitments he had made in the agreement. That's an example of the bad faith he accuses the EU side of. Actually sanctions on breach of a treaty are perfectly normal and not in "bad faith" unless they are unreasonable ones, eg sanctions on unavoidable outcomes.
It's just the process of negotiating. It seems to be a foreign language, unspoken by most on here.
As for the sacred nature of the Treaty? You're having a laugh. Ask the French about sanctions when you break a Treaty.....they'll just smirk.
Maybe. Anyway it explains why the EU are screwing this down.
While I agree with Barnier on the transistion he is doing himself no favours by being so arrogant and the elephant in the room will be how the public view this arrogance.
You've been saying this for months, but public opinion isn't swinging behind Brexit at all.
It is not swinging behind your vision either
Isn't that the most depressing thing about the whole saga? It's just reduced to 2 sides shouting at each other. I don't often see QuestionTime but did last night and regretted it. The other side couldn't even finish a sentence before being screamed at (and what a terrible advocate for Remain Terry Christian was.)
The entrenchment is so set that almost no-one is changing their mind now; any decent Government would be prioritising healing the awful divides but this one doesn't seem to care. It's why Brexit is still no sure thing - there's none of that sense of the nation coming together about this that TMay claimed in her election pitch, and no mandate or majority for any form of Brexit (other than giving the NHS lots of money which Brexit will make harder not easier.)
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for criticising him. It meets an automatic response of "you're being anti-semitic".....
But the Telegraph wasn’t criticising him per se.it was painting him as a shadowy figure behind a secret plot.
The EU don't appear to believe an Englishman's word is his bond i guess.
When David Davis says, immediately after agreeing a bunch of stuff in December, that it wasn't legally binding, you would expect the other side to "lack good faith" and be "discourteous".
Davis was absolutely right then and now. Until such times as there gas been an agreement on the whole A50 process nothing is legally binding and nor should it be. Barrier wants to bank concessions whilst refusing to deal with the main issues. It needs to be made clear yet again that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Technically Davis was to correct to say the interim agreement was not legally binding. The context to his remarks however were to imply that he was prepared to backtrack on commitments he had made in the agreement. That's an example of the bad faith he accuses the EU side of. Actually sanctions on breach of a treaty are perfectly normal and not in "bad faith" unless they are unreasonable ones, eg sanctions on unavoidable outcomes.
It's just the process of negotiating. It seems to be a foreign language, unspoken by most on here.
As for the sacred nature of the Treaty? You're having a laugh. Ask the French about sanctions when you break a Treaty.....they'll just smirk.
Maybe. Anyway it explains why the EU are screwing this down.
Or screwing it up....
We don't need lessons from the EU on screwing things up. Really we don't.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
You said he was evil yesterday. What about his politics merits that?
German cabinet news: Schulz is giving up the chance to become Foreign Minister.
Read that Merkel's party are furious with her for conceding too much and that she was under threat of being sacked. Maybe this is part of trying to resolve the problem
Would things have been any different negotiation wise had May won her desired majority? After all that appeared to be the stated aim of the election - to strengthen her hand
Yes. She would have been able to deal with the Northern Ireland situation without having to worry about losing power.
Indeed. You explained explicitly that the DUP pact was a recipe for chaos immediately after the election. Most PB Tories now seem to add DUP seats to future Conservative totals as a matter of course. This strikes me as being a dangerous strategy. My only surprise is how compliant the nationalist side have been since June. They are either seriously disinterested or see the fallout from Brexit in the Irish context accelerating the unification of the Island of Ireland.
Labour supporters need to realise that the chances of the Tory lead being reduced from a peak of 25% to 2% at the next election are practically zero. If they want to carry on believing that will happen again I'm sure the Tories will be delighted.
While I agree with Barnier on the transistion he is doing himself no favours by being so arrogant and the elephant in the room will be how the public view this arrogance.
You've been saying this for months, but public opinion isn't swinging behind Brexit at all.
It is not swinging behind your vision either
Isn't that the most depressing thing about the whole saga? It's just reduced to 2 sides shouting at each other. I don't often see QuestionTime but did last night and regretted it. The other side couldn't even finish a sentence before being screamed at (and what a terrible advocate for Remain Terry Christian was.)
The entrenchment is so set that almost no-one is changing their mind now; any decent Government would be prioritising healing the awful divides but this one doesn't seem to care. It's why Brexit is still no sure thing - there's none of that sense of the nation coming together about this that TMay claimed in her election pitch, and no mandate or majority for any form of Brexit (other than giving the NHS lots of money which Brexit will make harder not easier.)
Nor is there a mandate for staying in
86%+ of the votes in June 2017 were for parties pledging to implement Brexit.....
Would things have been any different negotiation wise had May won her desired majority? After all that appeared to be the stated aim of the election - to strengthen her hand
Yes. She would have been able to deal with the Northern Ireland situation without having to worry about losing power.
Even on Northern Ireland the regulatory alignment had to be agreed before FTA and transition talks began and even a landslide would not have changed that. That was the most difficult phase of the discussions, even more so than the exit bill and citizens' rights and as a result now that has been completed we will likely get a transition and once that has ended eventually a FTA
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for criticising him. It meets an automatic response of "you're being anti-semitic".....
Fraser Nelson managed it ("American financier").
Slightly weaselly (he must have thought long and hard about it) but worked fine.
Just an idea - PB should have an evening post Brexit when the leavers can come out to stay out and the remainers come out to rejoin, then carry on the debate to infinity
There is nothing wrong at all with calling him a puppet master. Any more than there was showing Miliband as Sturgeon's puppet. It shows just how desperate the Remain camp have become that they need to attack this in terms of anti-Semitism.
I think we should just agree to a 5 year extension of the customs union. That way we can get the rest of Brexit sorted and get trade deals sorted, new immigration systems in place before coming back to it. At that point, we might have a government less dependent on the DUP and they can decide NI is a special case.
Would things have been any different negotiation wise had May won her desired majority? After all that appeared to be the stated aim of the election - to strengthen her hand
Yes. She would have been able to deal with the Northern Ireland situation without having to worry about losing power.
Indeed. You explained explicitly that the DUP pact was a recipe for chaos immediately after the election. Most PB Tories now seem to add DUP seats to future Conservative totals as a matter of course. This strikes me as being a dangerous strategy. My only surprise is how compliant the nationalist side have been since June. They are either seriously disinterested or see the fallout from Brexit in the Irish context accelerating the unification of the Island of Ireland.
When people in NI find out they have to pay 100 euro to go to Casualty, 50 euro to see a GP and 70 euro a night to go to hospital if their household earns over 14000 euro a year (including for any child over 7) you might be amazed how support for a United Ireland will evaporate. Let alone more punitive inheritance tax and massive public spending cuts as the Republic would need to divert 9bn euro a year to maintain the subsidy.
Compared to operation No in Scotland it will be a walk in park.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
You said he was evil yesterday. What about his politics merits that?
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Of course. And to reference him as a puppet master is to repeat a trope employed by anti-Semites since the 19th century.
This is bollocks. Just shows how desperate you are if that is the only avenue of attack you can come up with.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Indeed. And he being attacked for his politics, not his religion.
There is nothing wrong at all with calling him a puppet master. Any more than there was showing Miliband as Sturgeon's puppet. It shows just how desperate the Remain camp have become that they need to attack this in terms of anti-Semitism.
Would you say there was nothing wrong with depicting Obama as an ape because it was ok to do it to Bush? There is clearly a big push to focus on Soros from the Alt Right because, of all the liberal donors, he is a Jewish banker. It amazes me the Tory press is going along with such a framing. It is either deliberate plausible deniability or shocking tone deafness.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Of course. And to reference him as a puppet master is to repeat a trope employed by anti-Semites since the 19th century.
This is bollocks. Just shows how desperate you are if that is the only avenue of attack you can come up with.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
Brexit is like any revolution. A broad coalition came together who were united in their belief that the status quo is unacceptable. Now that the status quo is no more, there is no obvious reason why any particular alternative will command broad agreement. Just as we’ve had Girondins and Jacobins, Mensheviks and Bolsheviks, Islamists and Liberals, now we have EEA-ers and WTOers.
I have no idea where we’ll end up, but I think there’s a good chance we’ll end up staying after all. I’m wondering if the best choice for the goverment is to throw the decision on Norway vs Canada to the electorate in a second referendum.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
That genuinely surprises me, Richard. The borderless, wealthy, puppet master is an anti-Semitic trope going back to the 19th century. It’s been used against Soros by both the Telegraph and the Sun - just as it is used against him by far-right populists in Eastern Europe. I would have thought someone with your knowledge and intolerance of racism would have known that.
People only see it as anti-Semetic because they want to smear the Leave campaign. As I said before, you cannot claim the Soros attacks are wrong without saying the same thing about the Sturgeon/Miliband attack.
There is nothing wrong at all with calling him a puppet master. Any more than there was showing Miliband as Sturgeon's puppet. It shows just how desperate the Remain camp have become that they need to attack this in terms of anti-Semitism.
Would you say there was nothing wrong with depicting Obama as an ape because it was ok to do it to Bush? There is clearly a big push to focus on Soros from the Alt Right because, of all the liberal donors, he is a Jewish banker. It amazes me the Tory press is going along with such a framing. It is either deliberate plausible deniability or shocking tone deafness.
Yes and yes.
And the shocking tone deafness extends to some here on PB with their "wot, me guv?" response.
Now, how do you criticise Soros for what he did? Well first of all, as mentioned, Fraser Nelson managed to pretty well. But the bigger picture, and one that many are not getting (the tone deafness you mentioned) is that of all the Remain supporters anyone can name or focus on, why is it that one is a non-white female, and the other is a non-WASP male?
Where are the front page articles on all the other (presumably hundreds? thousands? of) Remain supporters?
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Of course. And to reference him as a puppet master is to repeat a trope employed by anti-Semites since the 19th century.
This is bollocks. Just shows how desperate you are if that is the only avenue of attack you can come up with.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I bet you tore up your Labour membership over this gem:
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Of course. And to reference him as a puppet master is to repeat a trope employed by anti-Semites since the 19th century.
This is bollocks. Just shows how desperate you are if that is the only avenue of attack you can come up with.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I bet you tore up your Labour membership over this gem:
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Of course. And to reference him as a puppet master is to repeat a trope employed by anti-Semites since the 19th century.
This is bollocks. Just shows how desperate you are if that is the only avenue of attack you can come up with.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I am, not ignorant of it. But I also know that it is not a trope that has any traction in the UK today. The idea of a puppet master extends far beyond any usage in anti-Semitic circles and you are simply encouraging a distinction which no longer exists.
Another anti-Semitic trope was their occupation as bankers and money lenders. Are you saying we should not be allowed to refer to anyone of Jewish extraction as a banker simply because it was a trope in the past?
I think you need to grow up and stop looking for excuses to attack people.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for criticising him. It meets an automatic response of "you're being anti-semitic".....
But the Telegraph wasn’t criticising him per se.it was painting him as a shadowy figure behind a secret plot.
It's the 'plot' and 'conspiracy' guff that taps into a rich history of high frequency whistling, and conveniently coincides with Leaver paranoia that their preshuss is about to be torn from their grasp.
There is nothing wrong at all with calling him a puppet master. Any more than there was showing Miliband as Sturgeon's puppet. It shows just how desperate the Remain camp have become that they need to attack this in terms of anti-Semitism.
Would you say there was nothing wrong with depicting Obama as an ape because it was ok to do it to Bush? There is clearly a big push to focus on Soros from the Alt Right because, of all the liberal donors, he is a Jewish banker. It amazes me the Tory press is going along with such a framing. It is either deliberate plausible deniability or shocking tone deafness.
Yes and yes.
And the shocking tone deafness extends to some here on PB with their "wot, me guv?" response.
Now, how do you criticise Soros for what he did? Well first of all, as mentioned, Fraser Nelson managed to pretty well. But the bigger picture, and one that many are not getting (the tone deafness you mentioned) is that of all the Remain supporters anyone can name or focus on, why is it that one is a non-white female, and the other is a non-WASP male?
Where are the front page articles on all the other (presumably hundreds? thousands? of) Remain supporters?
The two you focus in on have hardly ticked the "no publicity" box though, have they?
Would things have been any different negotiation wise had May won her desired majority? After all that appeared to be the stated aim of the election - to strengthen her hand
Yes. She would have been able to deal with the Northern Ireland situation without having to worry about losing power.
She would have been able to do that had she kept her small majority pre election and never called the poll.
However now we have agreed the regulatory alignment over Ireland plus citizens' rights plus the exit bill we will likely get a FTA eventually
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Of course. And to reference him as a puppet master is to repeat a trope employed by anti-Semites since the 19th century.
This is bollocks. Just shows how desperate you are if that is the only avenue of attack you can come up with.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I bet you tore up your Labour membership over this gem:
Brexit is like any revolution. A broad coalition came together who were united in their belief that the status quo is unacceptable. Now that the status quo is no more, there is no obvious reason why any particular alternative will command broad agreement. Just as we’ve had Girondins and Jacobins, Mensheviks and Bolsheviks, Islamists and Liberals, now we have EEA-ers and WTOers.
I have no idea where we’ll end up, but I think there’s a good chance we’ll end up staying after all. I’m wondering if the best choice for the goverment is to throw the decision on Norway vs Canada to the electorate in a second referendum.
Just an idea - PB should have an evening post Brexit when the leavers can come out to stay out and the remainers come out to rejoin, then carry on the debate to infinity
It's like football and Israel/Palestine. Once you've picked a side you're fucking stuck with them forever.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Of course. And to reference him as a puppet master is to repeat a trope employed by anti-Semites since the 19th century.
This is bollocks. Just shows how desperate you are if that is the only avenue of attack you can come up with.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I am, not ignorant of it. But I also know that it is not a trope that has any traction in the UK today. The idea of a puppet master extends far beyond any usage in anti-Semitic circles and you are simply encouraging a distinction which no longer exists.
Another anti-Semitic trope was their occupation as bankers and money lenders. Are you saying we should not be allowed to refer to anyone of Jewish extraction as a banker simply because it was a trope in the past?
I think you need to grow up and stop looking for excuses to attack people.
Noting someone is a banker is neither here nor there. Referring to them as borderless, shadowy bankers involved in secret plots when they are Jewish certainly moves you into dodgy territory. Puppet masters moves you way into it. As I say, I am genuinely suprised you have no problem with this.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I bet you tore up your Labour membership over this gem:
I was one of the members who voted for the Fagin card which later prompted allegations of anti-semitism, and think it's a mistake to think that everyone who talks about things like this is secretly being anti-semitic - that never occurred to me and still seems to me a stretch, as does your example. I think the case against the Telegraph page is not proven on the same basis.
That, of course, is the problem with things which really are intended to tweak an anti-semitic nerve - if they're wrapped up a bit it's hard to be sure either way.
Brexit is like any revolution. A broad coalition came together who were united in their belief that the status quo is unacceptable. Now that the status quo is no more, there is no obvious reason why any particular alternative will command broad agreement. Just as we’ve had Girondins and Jacobins, Mensheviks and Bolsheviks, Islamists and Liberals, now we have EEA-ers and WTOers.
I have no idea where we’ll end up, but I think there’s a good chance we’ll end up staying after all. I’m wondering if the best choice for the goverment is to throw the decision on Norway vs Canada to the electorate in a second referendum.
I don't see how you would get a second referendum through the Hoc and especially the HoL without "remain" being required as an option on the ballot. So it is a non-runner.
Would things have been any different negotiation wise had May won her desired majority? After all that appeared to be the stated aim of the election - to strengthen her hand
Yes. She would have been able to deal with the Northern Ireland situation without having to worry about losing power.
She would have been able to do that had she kept her small majority pre election and never called the poll.
However now we have agreed the regulatory alignment over Ireland plus citizens' rights plus the exit bill we will likely get a FTA eventually
Not when you have witless idiots like Corbyn denying the need for a customs agreement! (Source: Indy)
There is nothing wrong at all with calling him a puppet master. Any more than there was showing Miliband as Sturgeon's puppet. It shows just how desperate the Remain camp have become that they need to attack this in terms of anti-Semitism.
Would you say there was nothing wrong with depicting Obama as an ape because it was ok to do it to Bush? There is clearly a big push to focus on Soros from the Alt Right because, of all the liberal donors, he is a Jewish banker. It amazes me the Tory press is going along with such a framing. It is either deliberate plausible deniability or shocking tone deafness.
Yes and yes.
And the shocking tone deafness extends to some here on PB with their "wot, me guv?" response.
Now, how do you criticise Soros for what he did? Well first of all, as mentioned, Fraser Nelson managed to pretty well. But the bigger picture, and one that many are not getting (the tone deafness you mentioned) is that of all the Remain supporters anyone can name or focus on, why is it that one is a non-white female, and the other is a non-WASP male?
Where are the front page articles on all the other (presumably hundreds? thousands? of) Remain supporters?
The two you focus in on have hardly ticked the "no publicity" box though, have they?
Maybe, maybe not.
There are still plenty of Remain supporters. What about Mark Malloch-Brown? Pretty high profile bloke.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Of course. And to reference him as a puppet master is to repeat a trope employed by anti-Semites since the 19th century.
This is bollocks. Just shows how desperate you are if that is the only avenue of attack you can come up with.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I bet you tore up your Labour membership over this gem:
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Of course. And to reference him as a puppet master is to repeat a trope employed by anti-Semites since the 19th century.
This is bollocks. Just shows how desperate you are if that is the only avenue of attack you can come up with.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I am, not ignorant of it. But I also know that it is not a trope that has any traction in the UK today. The idea of a puppet master extends far beyond any usage in anti-Semitic circles and you are simply encouraging a distinction which no longer exists.
Another anti-Semitic trope was their occupation as bankers and money lenders. Are you saying we should not be allowed to refer to anyone of Jewish extraction as a banker simply because it was a trope in the past?
I think you need to grow up and stop looking for excuses to attack people.
Noting someone is a banker is neither here nor there. Referring to them as borderless, shadowy bankers involved in secret plots when they are Jewish certainly moves you into dodgy territory. Puppet masters moves you way into it. As I say, I am genuinely suprised you have no problem with this.
I am pleased to have surprised you and disappointed that you fall for this rubbish. You have certainly gone down in my estimation by jumping on these sorts of juvenile bandwagons.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I bet you tore up your Labour membership over this gem:
I was one of the members who voted for the Fagin card which later prompted allegations of anti-semitism, and think it's a mistake to think that everyone who talks about things like this is secretly being anti-semitic - that never occurred to me and still seems to me a stretch, as does your example. I think the case against the Telegraph page is not proven on the same basis.
That, of course, is the problem with things which really are intended to tweak an anti-semitic nerve - if they're wrapped up a bit it's hard to be sure either way.
Fagin card?
Another mindlessly stupid, tin-eared, ignorant, racist dog-whistle idea.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I bet you tore up your Labour membership over this gem:
I was one of the members who voted for the Fagin card which later prompted allegations of anti-semitism, and think it's a mistake to think that everyone who talks about things like this is secretly being anti-semitic - that never occurred to me and still seems to me a stretch, as does your example. I think the case against the Telegraph page is not proven on the same basis.
That, of course, is the problem with things which really are intended to tweak an anti-semitic nerve - if they're wrapped up a bit it's hard to be sure either way.
We’re 13 years on from that at a time when the Tory Brexit presshas - quite correctly - been attacking the Labour leadrrship over its position on anti-Semitism. It’s a live issue now in a way it wasn’t back in 2005, when people probably didn’t give it much thought.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider allave expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
Of course. And to reference him as a puppet master is to repeat a trope employed by anti-Semites since the 19th century.
This is bollocks. Just shows how desperate you are if that is the only avenue of attack you can come up with.
Are you seriously suggesting anti-Semites have not used the puppet master trope against Jews for the last 150+ years? Seriously? I am genuinely surprised at your ignorance of this.
I am, not ignorant any usage in anti-Semitic circles and you are simply encouraging a distinction which no longer exists.
Another anti-Semitic trope was their occupation as bankers and money lenders. Are you saying we should not be allowed to refer to anyone of Jewish extraction as a banker simply because it was a trope in the past?
I think you need to grow up and stop looking for excuses to attack people.
Noting someone is a banker is neither here nor there. Referring to them as borderless, shadowy bankers involved in secret plots when they are Jewish certainly moves you into dodgy territory. Puppet masters moves you way into it. As I say, I am genuinely suprised you have no problem with this.
I am pleased to have surprised you and disappointed that you fall for this rubbish. You have certainly gone down in my estimation by jumping on these sorts of juvenile bandwagons.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
Labour supporters need to realise that the chances of the Tory lead being reduced from a peak of 25% to 2% at the next election are practically zero. If they want to carry on believing that will happen again I'm sure the Tories will be delighted.
And what are the consequences of that belief? I Imagine it will encourage them to get out and work harder. It might be self fulfilling.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for criticising him. It meets an automatic response of "you're being anti-semitic".....
But the Telegraph wasn’t criticising him per se.it was painting him as a shadowy figure behind a secret plot.
It's the 'plot' and 'conspiracy' guff that taps into a rich history of high frequency whistling, and conveniently coincides with Leaver paranoia that their preshuss is about to be torn from their grasp.
Oh I know. There’s an argument on here that the Telegraph was just criticising Soros, as in disagreeing somehow with his views or aims.
But it’s more than that. It’s a personal attack. Andy why pick on Soros? Why call him a puppet master? Why invoke classic anti-Semitic tropes?
Its a disgrace.
But as I said yesterday, Brexit itself is a conspiracy theory, so unsurprising there is overlap with other strains of the virus.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
I'm with SO on this.
If you (I mean that impersonally) are not anti-Semitic you would do well not to do as anti-Semites do.
Soros as puppeteer is not so much sinister as weird. I mean, why not go round with swastikas and doing sieg heil salutes at every turn? The criticism of Soros is that he is a richr foreigner using his wealth to influence the politics in this country. He isn't unique. For example the New Zealander funding Legatum on the Brexit side, who had applied for an EU passport. To accuse Soros of undermining democracy is a stretch in policy terms, if not on the process.
Would things have been any different negotiation wise had May won her desired majority? After all that appeared to be the stated aim of the election - to strengthen her hand
Yes. She would have been able to deal with the Northern Ireland situation without having to worry about losing power.
She would have been able to do that had she kept her small majority pre election and never called the poll.
However now we have agreed the regulatory alignment over Ireland plus citizens' rights plus the exit bill we will likely get a FTA eventually
Not when you have witless idiots like Corbyn denying the need for a customs agreement! (Source: Indy)
Corbyn now seems to be moving towards keeping the UK in the Customs Union based on reports of the meeting between Corbyn, Starmer and Barnier though Labour would still leave the single market
Just an idea - PB should have an evening post Brexit when the leavers can come out to stay out and the remainers come out to rejoin, then carry on the debate to infinity
It's like football and Israel/Palestine. Once you've picked a side you're fucking stuck with them forever.
Or Unionists and Nationalists, referendums do force you to pick a side, no third party cop out allowed
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
I'm with SO on this.
If you (I mean that impersonally) are not anti-Semitic you would do well not to do as anti-Semites do.
I think I'm on the side of SO and yourself, with one caveat: not everyone can know every old trops that anti-Semites use (although I'd expect some, such as the puppeteer ones, to be better known).
However this was an article in a newspaper, written and edited by intelligent people. If they did not realise the ground they were going on, then they're probably not in the right jobs.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for criticising him. It meets an automatic response of "you're being anti-semitic".....
But the Telegraph wasn’t criticising him per se.it was painting him as a shadowy figure behind a secret plot.
It's the 'plot' and 'conspiracy' guff that taps into a rich history of high frequency whistling, and conveniently coincides with Leaver paranoia that their preshuss is about to be torn from their grasp.
Wait was Sir Fred Goodwin Jewish ?
He was a slippery banker who brought the country to its knees.
"Following the start of production of the Infiniti Q30 in late 2015, a second Infiniti model, the QX30, went into production for global markets in 2016 – which also represented the first time vehicles have been exported from Sunderland to the USA and China."
"The SMMT said global demand for British-built cars increased by more than 10%, leading to four of every five cars built in this country being exported to one of 160 markets."
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for criticising him. It meets an automatic response of "you're being anti-semitic".....
But the Telegraph wasn’t criticising him per se.it was painting him as a shadowy figure behind a secret plot.
It's the 'plot' and 'conspiracy' guff that taps into a rich history of high frequency whistling, and conveniently coincides with Leaver paranoia that their preshuss is about to be torn from their grasp.
Wait was Sir Fred Goodwin Jewish ?
He was a slippery banker who brought the country to its knees.
I think we should be told.
Weak.
He tried and failed to make RBS a global bank. He was in charge of himself (and his bank). A million miles away from a shady character trying to pull the strings behind The People's backs.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
Why would I want to smear the Leave campaign? I voted Leave! Your comparison to Sturgeon is trite as she is not Jewish. I noticed you never answered my question about showing Obama as a monkey.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
I'm with SO on this.
If you (I mean that impersonally) are not anti-Semitic you would do well not to do as anti-Semites do.
I think I'm on the side of SO and yourself, with one caveat: not everyone can know every old trops that anti-Semites use (although I'd expect some, such as the puppeteer ones, to be better known).
However this was an article in a newspaper, written and edited by intelligent people. If they did not realise the ground they were going on, then they're probably not in the right jobs.
Or they probably thought that his religion didn't matter. It is those who are seeking to make political capital out of this who seem to be fixated with his religion.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
Picking on the fact that he is a Jew - something that only the Remainers seem to be bothered by - is certainly an indication that you are far more concerned about his religious and racial background than those you attack. It is a simple as that. I suspect you are a bigot.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for criticising him. It meets an automatic response of "you're being anti-semitic".....
But the Telegraph wasn’t criticising him per se.it was painting him as a shadowy figure behind a secret plot.
It's the 'plot' and 'conspiracy' guff that taps into a rich history of high frequency whistling, and conveniently coincides with Leaver paranoia that their preshuss is about to be torn from their grasp.
Oh I know. There’s an argument on here that the Telegraph was just criticising Soros, as in disagreeing somehow with his views or aims.
But it’s more than that. It’s a personal attack. Andy why pick on Soros? Why call him a puppet master? Why invoke classic anti-Semitic tropes?
Its a disgrace.
But as I said yesterday, Brexit itself is a conspiracy theory, so unsurprising there is overlap with other strains of the virus.
Ah, yet another fuckwit more interested in someone's religion than what they are actually saying or doing.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
Picking on the fact that he is a Jew - something that only the Remainers seem to be bothered by - is certainly an indication that you are far more concerned about his religious and racial background than those you attack. It is a simple as that. I suspect you are a bigot.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for criticising him. It meets an automatic response of "you're being anti-semitic".....
But the Telegraph wasn’t criticising him per se.it was painting him as a shadowy figure behind a secret plot.
It's the 'plot' and 'conspiracy' guff that taps into a rich history of high frequency whistling, and conveniently coincides with Leaver paranoia that their preshuss is about to be torn from their grasp.
Oh I know. There’s an argument on here that the Telegraph was just criticising Soros, as in disagreeing somehow with his views or aims.
But it’s more than that. It’s a personal attack. Andy why pick on Soros? Why call him a puppet master? Why invoke classic anti-Semitic tropes?
Its a disgrace.
But as I said yesterday, Brexit itself is a conspiracy theory, so unsurprising there is overlap with other strains of the virus.
Ah, yet another fuckwit more interested in someone's religion than what they are actually saying or doing.
Walks slowly backwards as Tyndall starts foaming again...
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
Why would I want to smear the Leave campaign? I voted Leave! Your comparison to Sturgeon is trite as she is not Jewish. I noticed you never answered my question about showing Obama as a monkey.
Showing anyone as a monkey should be unacceptable. Showing anyone as a puppet master should not. It is an artificial outrage that is dragged out time and time again.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
Picking on the fact that he is a Jew - something that only the Remainers seem to be bothered by - is certainly an indication that you are far more concerned about his religious and racial background than those you attack. It is a simple as that. I suspect you are a bigot.
hahaha Richard you can be a dick sometimes.
I could spend a whole life practicing and never approach your mastery.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
Picking on the fact that he is a Jew - something that only the Remainers seem to be bothered by - is certainly an indication that you are far more concerned about his religious and racial background than those you attack. It is a simple as that. I suspect you are a bigot.
hahaha Richard you can be a dick sometimes.
I could spend a whole life practicing and never approach your mastery.
excellent comeback.
Doesn't detract from your dickwaddery over this particular issue.
Pretty much everything that should have happened in the period between TM becoming PM & the triggering of A50, didn't happen.
None of the necessary planning was done.
Executive dysfunction. And that was before the Tories lost their majority.
Why? What was the point in waiting, doing nothing, and then triggering A50?
I think you’re underestimating the scale of the task. Made doubly tricky by a divided government.
The civil servants needed more time - but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer.
" but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer. "
Rubbish. The EU refused to begin negotiation under A50 was enacted.
The EU were following their own rules/treaty.
You want to talk about leaving the EU you need to trigger Article 50.
Failure to do so could lead to them being taken to court for not following the law.
Since the cabinet *still* can’t agree on the precise method of leaving, it’s hardly fair to put too much blame on the EU, as punchable as Junker’s et al faces are.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
I'm with SO on this.
If you (I mean that impersonally) are not anti-Semitic you would do well not to do as anti-Semites do.
I think I'm on the side of SO and yourself, with one caveat: not everyone can know every old trops that anti-Semites use (although I'd expect some, such as the puppeteer ones, to be better known).
However this was an article in a newspaper, written and edited by intelligent people. If they did not realise the ground they were going on, then they're probably not in the right jobs.
The other issue is that accusing Soros of being a puppeteer isn't a sensible criticism, leaving aside the Nazi overtones. He is an outsider who doesn't hide what he is doing.
Pretty much everything that should have happened in the period between TM becoming PM & the triggering of A50, didn't happen.
None of the necessary planning was done.
Executive dysfunction. And that was before the Tories lost their majority.
Why? What was the point in waiting, doing nothing, and then triggering A50?
I think you’re underestimating the scale of the task. Made doubly tricky by a divided government.
The civil servants needed more time - but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer.
" but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer. "
Rubbish. The EU refused to begin negotiation under A50 was enacted.
The EU were following their own rules/treaty.
You want to talk about leaving the EU you need to trigger Article 50.
Failure to do so could lead to them being taken to court for not following the law.
Since the cabinet *still* can’t agree on the precise method of leaving, it’s hardly fair to put too much blame on the EU, as punchable as Junker’s et al faces are.
Yup
You can see why Dave didn’t do any Brexit planning.
It was impossible to work out the contradictory stuff Vote Leave wanted.
We want to leave the SU/CU but we want frictionless trade and the NI border is nowt to worry about.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
Picking on the fact that he is a Jew - something that only the Remainers seem to be bothered by - is certainly an indication that you are far more concerned about his religious and racial background than those you attack. It is a simple as that. I suspect you are a bigot.
Fair enough. If that’s what you think, so be it. I know I’m not. Likewise, only you will know why you are choosing to whitewash clear examples of anti-Semitism.
You want to talk about leaving the EU you need to trigger Article 50.
Failure to do so could lead to them being taken to court for not following the law.
Where is that rule?
And even if there is such a rule, which I very much doubt, there is definitely no rule which says we couldn't have started negotiating on the substance of the post-withdrawal agreement the morning after we delivered Article 50. Quite the opposite, in fact, it is implicit in the wording of Article 50 that we should have done. The delay is entirely a political decision of the Council of Ministers.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
I'm with SO on this.
If you (I mean that impersonally) are not anti-Semitic you would do well not to do as anti-Semites do.
I think I'm on the side of SO and yourself, with one caveat: not everyone can know every old trops that anti-Semites use (although I'd expect some, such as the puppeteer ones, to be better known).
However this was an article in a newspaper, written and edited by intelligent people. If they did not realise the ground they were going on, then they're probably not in the right jobs.
The other issue is that accusing Soros of being a puppeteer isn't a sensible criticism, leaving aside the Nazi overtones. He is an outsider who doesn't hide what he is doing.
And just to top it all off - the banner advert at the top is for "Testimony of Truth" and says "Abrbeit macht frei" and #germanDeathCamps
You want to talk about leaving the EU you need to trigger Article 50.
Failure to do so could lead to them being taken to court for not following the law.
Where is that rule?
And even if there is such a rule, which I very much doubt, there is definitely no rule which says we couldn't start negotiating on the substance of the post-withdrawal agreement the morning after we delivered Article 50. Quite the opposite, in fact, it is implicit in the wording of Article 50 that we should have done. The delay is entirely a political decision of the Council of Ministers.
It was something Lord Kerr said.
Otherwise every country would have the luxury of trying to exact stuff out of the EU without having to trigger Article 50.
You want to talk about leaving the EU you need to trigger Article 50.
Failure to do so could lead to them being taken to court for not following the law.
Where is that rule?
And even if there is such a rule, which I very much doubt, there is definitely no rule which says we couldn't start negotiating on the substance of the post-withdrawal agreement the morning after we delivered Article 50. Quite the opposite, in fact, it is implicit in the wording of Article 50 that we should have done. The delay is entirely a political decision of the Council of Ministers.
It was something Lord Kerr said.
Otherwise every country would have the luxury of trying to exact stuff out of the EU without having to trigger Article 50.
They can anyway. Nothing can stop a country saying 'Give us X or we'll leave'. Of course, I can see why the EU would want to discourage that, but they can't stop it. In our case, since we'd already decided to leave, it was academic anyway.
I see we can now add the Jews to the list of those to blame for Brexit not being the cake walk the loons assured us it would be.
I can see you are getting more and more desperate to smear Leave supporters because you have nothing else left to argue with. I would have expected better of you.
Nope - I do not consider all Brexit supporters loons, just the ones who promised a cake walk on the basis that they need us more than we need them. If you are comfortable with the right wing press's anti-Semitic attacks on George Soros so be it. But I would have expected better of you.
They are not anti semetic. That is your own lunatic smear.
So yes I am entirely comfortable with the attacks on Soros.
Criticising Soros for being a Jew is appalling. Criticising him for his politics is perfectly legitimate.
But the point is, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for criticising him. It meets an automatic response of "you're being anti-semitic".....
But the Telegraph wasn’t criticising him per se.it was painting him as a shadowy figure behind a secret plot.
It's the 'plot' and 'conspiracy' guff that taps into a rich history of high frequency whistling, and conveniently coincides with Leaver paranoia that their preshuss is about to be torn from their grasp.
Wait was Sir Fred Goodwin Jewish ?
He was a slippery banker who brought the country to its knees.
I think we should be told.
You jest, but..
'Jewish billionaires and Jewish bankers; Blavatnik, Deripaska, Goodwin, Rothschild...'
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
I'm with SO on this.
If you (I mean that impersonally) are not anti-Semitic you would do well not to do as anti-Semites do.
I think I'm on the side of SO and yourself, with one caveat: not everyone can know every old trops that anti-Semites use (although I'd expect some, such as the puppeteer ones, to be better known).
However this was an article in a newspaper, written and edited by intelligent people. If they did not realise the ground they were going on, then they're probably not in the right jobs.
Or they probably thought that his religion didn't matter. It is those who are seeking to make political capital out of this who seem to be fixated with his religion.
Urrrm, no. Just no.
The media have power. It's a declining power in this Internet age, but it's still a lot of power. With that power goes responsibility, and that's what this article - I think through mistake rather than malice - lacks.
You might think that reasonable people would in no way make the connection others have. And you are probably correct. But there will be a small percentage for whom it will resonate, and who will take a little comfort from the fact that it's in a respectable newspaper.
It's made much worse by the fact that Soros is well known to have suffered such attacks in the past, so it's feeding into a rich vein of ant-Semitism. It's irresponsible by the Telegraph.
Well we have both lost a lot of respect for each other today, then. If my aversion to anti-Semitism is juvenile, so be it. I’ll live with that.
An aversion to anti-Semitism is certainly not juvenile. Trying to smear people with the accusation of anti-Semitism when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim certainly is. You really do need to grow up.
If you do not like the evidence, Richard, that is your problem not mine. Depicting Jews as borderless, secretive bankers acting in the shadows as manipulative puppet masters to subvert democracy are well-established, oft-used anti-Semitic tropes. It’s as simple as that.
I'm with SO on this.
If you (I mean that impersonally) are not anti-Semitic you would do well not to do as anti-Semites do.
I think I'm on the side of SO and yourself, with one caveat: not everyone can know every old trops that anti-Semites use (although I'd expect some, such as the puppeteer ones, to be better known).
However this was an article in a newspaper, written and edited by intelligent people. If they did not realise the ground they were going on, then they're probably not in the right jobs.
Or they probably thought that his religion didn't matter. It is those who are seeking to make political capital out of this who seem to be fixated with his religion.
Urrrm, no. Just no.
The media have power. It's a declining power in this Internet age, but it's still a lot of power. With that power goes responsibility, and that's what this article - I think through mistake rather than malice - lacks.
You might think that reasonable people would in no way make the connection others have. And you are probably correct. But there will be a small percentage for whom it will resonate, and who will take a little comfort from the fact that it's in a respectable newspaper.
It's made much worse by the fact that Soros is well known to have suffered such attacks in the past, so it's feeding into a rich vein of ant-Semitism. It's irresponsible by the Telegraph.
Comments
As it is, she’s too scared to be rolled.
What that would have meant for negotiations is difficult to determine. Presumably, more confidence in pursuing a “soft” Brexit. Having said that, her position for end state has been clear since Florence. FTA and no ECJ.
It was Enron.
https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/961900331507617792
Slightly weaselly (he must have thought long and hard about it) but worked fine.
Pretty much everything that should have happened in the period between TM becoming PM & the triggering of A50, didn't happen.
None of the necessary planning was done.
Executive dysfunction. And that was before the Tories lost their majority.
Why? What was the point in waiting, doing nothing, and then triggering A50?
Compared to operation No in Scotland it will be a walk in park.
I have no idea where we’ll end up, but I think there’s a good chance we’ll end up staying after all. I’m wondering if the best choice for the goverment is to throw the decision on Norway vs Canada to the electorate in a second referendum.
And the shocking tone deafness extends to some here on PB with their "wot, me guv?" response.
Now, how do you criticise Soros for what he did? Well first of all, as mentioned, Fraser Nelson managed to pretty well. But the bigger picture, and one that many are not getting (the tone deafness you mentioned) is that of all the Remain supporters anyone can name or focus on, why is it that one is a non-white female, and the other is a non-WASP male?
Where are the front page articles on all the other (presumably hundreds? thousands? of) Remain supporters?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4217009.stm
Another anti-Semitic trope was their occupation as bankers and money lenders. Are you saying we should not be allowed to refer to anyone of Jewish extraction as a banker simply because it was a trope in the past?
I think you need to grow up and stop looking for excuses to attack people.
However now we have agreed the regulatory alignment over Ireland plus citizens' rights plus the exit bill we will likely get a FTA eventually
That, of course, is the problem with things which really are intended to tweak an anti-semitic nerve - if they're wrapped up a bit it's hard to be sure either way.
The civil servants needed more time - but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer.
There are still plenty of Remain supporters. What about Mark Malloch-Brown? Pretty high profile bloke.
Manifestly not a furriner, though.
Another mindlessly stupid, tin-eared, ignorant, racist dog-whistle idea.
You voted for it, eh?
https://twitter.com/PJStringfellow/status/957649816900784129
There’s an argument on here that the Telegraph was just criticising Soros, as in disagreeing somehow with his views or aims.
But it’s more than that. It’s a personal attack.
Andy why pick on Soros? Why call him a puppet master? Why invoke classic anti-Semitic tropes?
Its a disgrace.
But as I said yesterday, Brexit itself is a conspiracy theory, so unsurprising there is overlap with other strains of the virus.
" but the Brexiteers weren’t prepared to wait for A50 any longer. "
Rubbish. The EU refused to begin negotiation under A50 was enacted.
With seemingly no sense or understanding of history, context, popular mass movements, insidious tropes, or general nastiness.
Ain't life grand!
If you (I mean that impersonally) are not anti-Semitic you would do well not to do as anti-Semites do.
However this was an article in a newspaper, written and edited by intelligent people. If they did not realise the ground they were going on, then they're probably not in the right jobs.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/boris-johnson-no-need-haste-eu-exit-negotiations
He was a slippery banker who brought the country to its knees.
I think we should be told.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/business/business-news/nissans-sunderland-plant-produces-more-12507467
"Following the start of production of the Infiniti Q30 in late 2015, a second Infiniti model, the QX30, went into production for global markets in 2016 – which also represented the first time vehicles have been exported from Sunderland to the USA and China."
"The SMMT said global demand for British-built cars increased by more than 10%, leading to four of every five cars built in this country being exported to one of 160 markets."
160 markets ? Who knew the EU had grown that big.
He tried and failed to make RBS a global bank. He was in charge of himself (and his bank). A million miles away from a shady character trying to pull the strings behind The People's backs.
You want to talk about leaving the EU you need to trigger Article 50.
Failure to do so could lead to them being taken to court for not following the law.
Doesn't detract from your dickwaddery over this particular issue.
I agree with the chap who earlier said it feels like things are coming to a head.
You can see why Dave didn’t do any Brexit planning.
It was impossible to work out the contradictory stuff Vote Leave wanted.
We want to leave the SU/CU but we want frictionless trade and the NI border is nowt to worry about.
And even if there is such a rule, which I very much doubt, there is definitely no rule which says we couldn't have started negotiating on the substance of the post-withdrawal agreement the morning after we delivered Article 50. Quite the opposite, in fact, it is implicit in the wording of Article 50 that we should have done. The delay is entirely a political decision of the Council of Ministers.
Privately he is said that the transition should take five years.
Sigh! - What a low place PB is today ....
Otherwise every country would have the luxury of trying to exact stuff out of the EU without having to trigger Article 50.
'Jewish billionaires and Jewish bankers; Blavatnik, Deripaska, Goodwin, Rothschild...'
https://tinyurl.com/y74b2wjc
They're everywhere, contaminating our society.
Antisemitic, conspiracy theorist, paranoid arseholes that is.
The media have power. It's a declining power in this Internet age, but it's still a lot of power. With that power goes responsibility, and that's what this article - I think through mistake rather than malice - lacks.
You might think that reasonable people would in no way make the connection others have. And you are probably correct. But there will be a small percentage for whom it will resonate, and who will take a little comfort from the fact that it's in a respectable newspaper.
It's made much worse by the fact that Soros is well known to have suffered such attacks in the past, so it's feeding into a rich vein of ant-Semitism. It's irresponsible by the Telegraph.