I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
Nah. They should just say they respect the will of the British people and are going to hold a wide-ranging strategic review on Brexit. Hinting at all things to all people will be just fine until Jezza or, preferably for me, La Thornberry walks into No.10 after the GE.
The top hat confused me - it's obviously hanging that you favour.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
The Tories magic money tree has in the last few years provided for capital gains tax cuts, DUP deals to keep the Tories in office despite the DUP's shameful waste of tax payers cash. Then of course Brexit which is looking to cost at least £40 Billion, with NO benefits just downsides on European Trade. The Brexit Ministers hide the civil service figures on the impact of Brexit because it is so bad and claim they are too extreme when challenged. Meanwhile the Immigration will continue from the rest of the world whilst the NHS receives no more money.
Really the Tories have to get real - Brexit will mean the end of the Liberal Economic framework initiated by 1973 accession to the EEC and instead we will see the rejuvenation of the Nationalistic economy where Labour Governments intervene. I used to be a member of the Tories but left as Cameron gave more ground to the Eurosceptic nutters - they are a cancer eating away at the party. It is no longer a party of economic competence but a vacuous self serving elite of people who are in it for the kudos of being a minister and of course Brexit.
I think I will vote for Corbyn as Brexit will see us all poorer anyway - the rich should have to pay for it as it is derived from a Tory Governments arrogance.
Mr. Dawning, the first of those is irrelevant to the CU, and the last existed decades ago and is not necessarily a bad thing. Indeed, humans leaving a swimming pool are chlorinated and somehow manage to survive.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
How would it solve the Northern Ireland border? If we’re not in the Single Market, it can’t be assumed that products made in the UK comply with EEA regulations; therefore, checks will have to be made at the frontier. No monies will be payable, but the checks will cause delays.
There most assuredly are checks on the EU/Turkey border, despite the existence of a customs union.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
The Tories magic money tree has in the last few years provided for capital gains tax cuts, DUP deals to keep the Tories in office despite the DUP's shameful waste of tax payers cash. Then of course Brexit which is looking to cost at least £40 Billion, with NO benefits just downsides on European Trade. The Brexit Ministers hide the civil service figures on the impact of Brexit because it is so bad and claim they are too extreme when challenged. Meanwhile the Immigration will continue from the rest of the world whilst the NHS receives no more money.
Really the Tories have to get real - Brexit will mean the end of the Liberal Economic framework initiated by 1973 accession to the EEC and instead we will see the rejuvenation of the Nationalistic economy where Labour Governments intervene. I used to be a member of the Tories but left as Cameron gave more ground to the Eurosceptic nutters - they are a cancer eating away at the party. It is no longer a party of economic competence but a vacuous self serving elite of people who are in it for the kudos of being a minister and of course Brexit.
I think I will vote for Corbyn as Brexit will see us all poorer anyway - the rich should have to pay for it as it is derived from a Tory Governments arrogance.
Fair enough. Fair warning, though: after a few years you might find yourself classified as 'the rich' ...
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
Even here in the Belly of the Capitalist Beast (a.k.a. the US) water is almost always a municipal service.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
The Tories magic money tree has in the last few years provided for capital gains tax cuts, DUP deals to keep the Tories in office despite the DUP's shameful waste of tax payers cash. Then of course Brexit which is looking to cost at least £40 Billion, with NO benefits just downsides on European Trade. The Brexit Ministers hide the civil service figures on the impact of Brexit because it is so bad and claim they are too extreme when challenged. Meanwhile the Immigration will continue from the rest of the world whilst the NHS receives no more money.
Really the Tories have to get real - Brexit will mean the end of the Liberal Economic framework initiated by 1973 accession to the EEC and instead we will see the rejuvenation of the Nationalistic economy where Labour Governments intervene. I used to be a member of the Tories but left as Cameron gave more ground to the Eurosceptic nutters - they are a cancer eating away at the party. It is no longer a party of economic competence but a vacuous self serving elite of people who are in it for the kudos of being a minister and of course Brexit.
I think I will vote for Corbyn as Brexit will see us all poorer anyway - the rich should have to pay for it as it is derived from a Tory Governments arrogance.
Oh dear, you are in a mess. I would suggest you get help but can't think of anyone who could help. Oh dear.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
How would it solve the Northern Ireland border? If we’re not in the Single Market, it can’t be assumed that products made in the UK comply with EEA regulations; therefore, checks will have to be made at the frontier. No monies will be payable, but the checks will cause delays.
There most assuredly are checks on the EU/Turkey border, despite the existence of a customs union.
If we signed a bilateral treaty with Ireland to treat Northern Ireland as part of Irish customs territory, which red lines would it cross?
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
Be fair, you do have an awful lot of water on tap, as it were.
Cannot believe the statement by Mark Goldring, Oxfam Chief Exec. As @Ishmael_Z notes, I bet he is grateful to her.
He should resign. Timing of appointment should make no difference. He was and is in charge of an organisation that manifestly failed both at the time and since, to uphold required standards of behaviour.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
You are pro EU and like many unhappy with the referendum. The Country is divided and there are no easy answers.
However, a hard left government led by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster post Brexit.
Furthermore, they will not gain middle England to form that government
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
Be fair, you do have an awful lot of water on tap, as it were.
What are you talking about? Its not rained since 11.00.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
You are pro EU and like many unhappy with the referendum. The Country is divided and there are no easy answers.
However, a hard left government led by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster post Brexit.
Furthermore, they will not gain middle England to form that government
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
The Tories magic money tree has in the last few years provided for capital gains tax cuts, DUP deals to keep the Tories in office despite the DUP's shameful waste of tax payers cash. Then of course Brexit which is looking to cost at least £40 Billion, with NO benefits just downsides on European Trade. The Brexit Ministers hide the civil service figures on the impact of Brexit because it is so bad and claim they are too extreme when challenged. Meanwhile the Immigration will continue from the rest of the world whilst the NHS receives no more money.
Really the Tories have to get real - Brexit will mean the end of the Liberal Economic framework initiated by 1973 accession to the EEC and instead we will see the rejuvenation of the Nationalistic economy where Labour Governments intervene. I used to be a member of the Tories but left as Cameron gave more ground to the Eurosceptic nutters - they are a cancer eating away at the party. It is no longer a party of economic competence but a vacuous self serving elite of people who are in it for the kudos of being a minister and of course Brexit.
I think I will vote for Corbyn as Brexit will see us all poorer anyway - the rich should have to pay for it as it is derived from a Tory Governments arrogance.
So, to be clear, your argument is that the voters' decision to leave the EU is going to make them poorer, but to really do the job properly they need to put Corbyn into No 10 as well.
Can't say I disagree. There's nothing so economically disastrous that a dose of Corbynomics can't make worse:
Rail privatisation has worked. Passenger numbers have doubled, and train travel is safer than ever before. It's hard to paint this as anything other than a success.
Where the rail network is failing, it is Network Rail, not the privatised companies as a whole. Not only are they failing on enhancements, but they are also failing on their bread-and-butter renewals and maintenance work.
These failures do not seem a good precedent for putting operations and train ownership into public hands ...
And yet Network Rail was created because its private predecessor, Railtrack, was so pisspoor at basic maintenance and safe operation of the railway that it killed dozens of passengers.
And lets not forget that the "successful" privatized rail operators have sucked up far more subsidy than British Rail ever did.
Scotland Yard ask for more money for investigation into Madeline McCann.
Without being unkind the McCann's have had substantial money given to their cause which I would suspect is many thousands more than other missing children and the time must arrive when it is not sustainable
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
You are pro EU and like many unhappy with the referendum. The Country is divided and there are no easy answers.
However, a hard left government led by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster post Brexit.
Furthermore, they will not gain middle England to form that government
Project Fear I see back out.
Not really - Corbyn and McDonnell role model is Venezuela
Rail privatisation has worked. Passenger numbers have doubled, and train travel is safer than ever before. It's hard to paint this as anything other than a success.
Where the rail network is failing, it is Network Rail, not the privatised companies as a whole. Not only are they failing on enhancements, but they are also failing on their bread-and-butter renewals and maintenance work.
These failures do not seem a good precedent for putting operations and train ownership into public hands ...
And yet Network Rail was created because its private predecessor, Railtrack, was so pisspoor at basic maintenance and safe operation of the railway that it killed dozens of passengers.
And lets not forget that the "successful" privatized rail operators have sucked up far more subsidy than British Rail ever did.
Yes, but Network Rail's predecessor, BR, also regularly killed passengers due to infrastructure failures. If you look at the charts of passenger deaths, the Railtrack era was nothing special. What has followed, is.
And the subsidy point is poorly made, especially if you consider it per passenger journey or passenger mile.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
You are pro EU and like many unhappy with the referendum. The Country is divided and there are no easy answers.
However, a hard left government led by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster post Brexit.
Furthermore, they will not gain middle England to form that government
Project Fear I see back out.
Not really - Corbyn and McDonnell role model is Venezuela
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
Be fair, you do have an awful lot of water on tap, as it were.
What are you talking about? Its not rained since 11.00.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
What do you think I think it means?
Well, for a start, you said it would solve the NI border - it wouldn't.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
If you think nothing can be worse than Brexit, then you lack imagination.
As might be expected those not well disposed toward Labour not happy with Don's comments (thanks for the piece, Don, by the way) and wheeling out the old classics of Corbyn going to turn Britain into Venezuela (well, at least it'll be warmer in February - perfect if I have to stand in a queue to buy soap).
I don't see much to argue with in Don's piece. I thought John McDonnell's video at the weekend compelling if not entirely convincing . I don't care who provides the services - water, rail, post etc but I don't see why making a profit for shareholders should be a priority over the provision of a service.
Don is also right to point out Labour should be about a vision or plan for Britain in the 2020s - a kind of Life After Brexit. Public services and housing are a key part of that but there are other questions which the Shadow Chancellor ducked and which he will need to address as the GE approaches.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
The Tories magic money tree has in the last few years provided for capital gains tax cuts, DUP deals to keep the Tories in office despite the DUP's shameful waste of tax payers cash. Then of course Brexit which is looking to cost at least £40 Billion, with NO benefits just downsides on European Trade. The Brexit Ministers hide the civil service figures on the impact of Brexit because it is so bad and claim they are too extreme when challenged. Meanwhile the Immigration will continue from the rest of the world whilst the NHS receives no more money.
Really the Tories have to get real - Brexit will mean the end of the Liberal Economic framework initiated by 1973 accession to the EEC and instead we will see the rejuvenation of the Nationalistic economy where Labour Governments intervene. I used to be a member of the Tories but left as Cameron gave more ground to the Eurosceptic nutters - they are a cancer eating away at the party. It is no longer a party of economic competence but a vacuous self serving elite of people who are in it for the kudos of being a minister and of course Brexit.
I think I will vote for Corbyn as Brexit will see us all poorer anyway - the rich should have to pay for it as it is derived from a Tory Governments arrogance.
So, to be clear, your argument is that the voters' decision to leave the EU is going to make them poorer, but to really do the job properly they need to put Corbyn into No 10 as well.
Can't say I disagree. There's nothing so economically disastrous that a dose of Corbynomics can't make worse:
So, to be clear, your argument is that the voters' decision to leave the EU is going to make them poorer, but to really do the job properly they need to put Corbyn into No 10 as well.
Can't say I disagree. There's nothing so economically disastrous that a dose of Corbynomics can't make worse:
I would have thought that Leavers would be very supportive of Corbyn. Post-Brexit, if Corbyn gets in, Project Leave can blame the trashing of the economy on Corbyn even if Brexit was responsible. We are often told by the more vociferous Leavers that, if Brexit fails, it will be somebody else's fault.
"Brexiteers for Corbyn!" The new slogan for the New Britain .....
Rail privatisation has worked. Passenger numbers have doubled, and train travel is safer than ever before. It's hard to paint this as anything other than a success.
Where the rail network is failing, it is Network Rail, not the privatised companies as a whole. Not only are they failing on enhancements, but they are also failing on their bread-and-butter renewals and maintenance work.
These failures do not seem a good precedent for putting operations and train ownership into public hands ...
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what is more successful or what is less successful, merely who can come out with the easiest and most palatable soundbite.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
Be fair, you do have an awful lot of water on tap, as it were.
What are you talking about? Its not rained since 11.00.
Not precisely where you are but I bet it has somewhere not a million (nor 500) miles away.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
You are pro EU and like many unhappy with the referendum. The Country is divided and there are no easy answers.
However, a hard left government led by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster post Brexit.
Furthermore, they will not gain middle England to form that government
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
You are pro EU and like many unhappy with the referendum. The Country is divided and there are no easy answers.
However, a hard left government led by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster post Brexit.
Furthermore, they will not gain middle England to form that government
Project Fear I see back out.
You frighten easily
I'm all a quiver.
But not over Brexit or a Labour Party in government. Oh sure I'd be poorer (wouldn't we all) but it's not something I'm actually scared of.
Bemused, more, that those who decry Project Fear around one particular political outcome, readily use it themselves about another.
As might be expected those not well disposed toward Labour not happy with Don's comments (thanks for the piece, Don, by the way) and wheeling out the old classics of Corbyn going to turn Britain into Venezuela (well, at least it'll be warmer in February - perfect if I have to stand in a queue to buy soap).
I don't see much to argue with in Don's piece. I thought John McDonnell's video at the weekend compelling if not entirely convincing . I don't care who provides the services - water, rail, post etc but I don't see why making a profit for shareholders should be a priority over the provision of a service.
Don is also right to point out Labour should be about a vision or plan for Britain in the 2020s - a kind of Life After Brexit. Public services and housing are a key part of that but there are other questions which the Shadow Chancellor ducked and which he will need to address as the GE approaches.
I have been well disposed as you put it towards Labour all my life. I voted Labour at every election since Harold Wilson was leader in the 70s.
The current Labour leadership is at best Citizen Smith incompetent, and at worst thoroughly nasty. We have a shadow chancellor who thinks its ok to threaten to lynch women, a hopeless leader and if anyone thinks Diane Abbott is the dream home secretary, they must be insane. Militant is taking over the Party with a new name, antisemitism is rife, there is massive online intimidation against moderates, Corbyn supporters are creating a Cult of Personality with songs and poems to the Leader that we have not seen since Stalin, and Labour has just lost a general election with about the same number of seats as Gordon Brown in 2010, and is currently three points behind the Tories and heading for a fourth defeat.
Some of us are crying out for decent leadership in the Labour party -which is the cue for people like you to accuse me of being a Blairite or Tory because thats the only answer you can think of.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
The Tories magic money tree has in the last few years provided for capital gains tax cuts, DUP deals to keep the Tories in office despite the DUP's shameful waste of tax payers cash. Then of course Brexit which is looking to cost at least £40 Billion, with NO benefits just downsides on European Trade. The Brexit Ministers hide the civil service figures on the impact of Brexit because it is so bad and claim they are too extreme when challenged. Meanwhile the Immigration will continue from the rest of the world whilst the NHS receives no more money.
Really the Tories have to get real - Brexit will mean the end of the Liberal Economic framework initiated by 1973 accession to the EEC and instead we will see the rejuvenation of the Nationalistic economy where Labour Governments intervene. I used to be a member of the Tories but left as Cameron gave more ground to the Eurosceptic nutters - they are a cancer eating away at the party. It is no longer a party of economic competence but a vacuous self serving elite of people who are in it for the kudos of being a minister and of course Brexit.
I think I will vote for Corbyn as Brexit will see us all poorer anyway - the rich should have to pay for it as it is derived from a Tory Governments arrogance.
So, to be clear, your argument is that the voters' decision to leave the EU is going to make them poorer, but to really do the job properly they need to put Corbyn into No 10 as well.
Can't say I disagree. There's nothing so economically disastrous that a dose of Corbynomics can't make worse:
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
Rail privatisation has worked. Passenger numbers have doubled, and train travel is safer than ever before. It's hard to paint this as anything other than a success.
Where the rail network is failing, it is Network Rail, not the privatised companies as a whole. Not only are they failing on enhancements, but they are also failing on their bread-and-butter renewals and maintenance work.
These failures do not seem a good precedent for putting operations and train ownership into public hands ...
And yet Network Rail was created because its private predecessor, Railtrack, was so pisspoor at basic maintenance and safe operation of the railway that it killed dozens of passengers.
And lets not forget that the "successful" privatized rail operators have sucked up far more subsidy than British Rail ever did.
Railtrack killed a hell of a lot fewer passengers than British Rail did. There was a step change - for the better - in deaths (excluding unfortunately suicides) following privatisation.
The big problem was with the way the rail network was privatised. not the fact it happened. The Government interpreted the EU rules as meaning they had to have a separate infrastructure and service provider for each network. This has made it easy for Railtrack/Network Rail to blame the Rail Companies and the Rail Companies to blame Railtrack/Network Rail for any issues. We would be far better having integrated companies which are responsible for everything on each line/region.
The creation and expansion of the railways was all done by private companies. Pretty much all of the destruction and shrinkage of the rail network was done by the nationalised company. I would hate to se a return to the bad old days of BR.
As might be expected those not well disposed toward Labour not happy with Don's comments (thanks for the piece, Don, by the way) and wheeling out the old classics of Corbyn going to turn Britain into Venezuela (well, at least it'll be warmer in February - perfect if I have to stand in a queue to buy soap).
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Cannot believe the statement by Mark Goldring, Oxfam Chief Exec. As @Ishmael_Z notes, I bet he is grateful to her.
He should resign. Timing of appointment should make no difference. He was and is in charge of an organisation that manifestly failed both at the time and since, to uphold required standards of behaviour.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
You have excess water in Scotland...
We have an excess of midges in Scotland, if anyone wants a couple of million or so, just let me know....
I have been well disposed as you put it towards Labour all my life. I voted Labour at every election since Harold Wilson was leader in the 70s.
The current Labour leadership is at best Citizen Smith incompetent, and at worst thoroughly nasty. We have a shadow chancellor who thinks its ok to threaten to lynch women, a hopeless leader and if anyone thinks Diane Abbott is the dream home secretary, they must be insane. Militant is taking over the Party with a new name, antisemitism is rife, there is massive online intimidation against moderates, Corbyn supporters are creating a Cult of Personality with songs and poems to the Leader that we have not seen since Stalin, and Labour has just lost a general election with about the same number of seats as Gordon Brown in 2010, and is currently three points behind the Tories and heading for a fourth defeat.
Some of us are crying out for decent leadership in the Labour party -which is the cue for people like you to accuse me of being a Blairite or Tory because thats the only answer you can think of.
Your contempt for Corbyn is well known here and shared by many. I don't know the inner workings of the Labour Party so I can't argue with your view though Nick Palmer doesn't seem to be as concerned as you but that's his business.
I'm not going to call you a Blairite or a Tory. Harold Wilson ran and won on a centrist agenda in 1964 and also because he offered a modern vision for Britain entering a new technological age.
I also think however you crunch statistics, calling the next election for the Conservatives is a bold move - you may be right, you may not.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
I understand your frustrations, indeed share some of them. But those who will suffer most in a Corbyn run economy will be the young.
As might be expected those not well disposed toward Labour not happy with Don's comments (thanks for the piece, Don, by the way) and wheeling out the old classics of Corbyn going to turn Britain into Venezuela (well, at least it'll be warmer in February - perfect if I have to stand in a queue to buy soap).
I don't see much to argue with in Don's piece. I thought John McDonnell's video at the weekend compelling if not entirely convincing . I don't care who provides the services - water, rail, post etc but I don't see why making a profit for shareholders should be a priority over the provision of a service.
Don is also right to point out Labour should be about a vision or plan for Britain in the 2020s - a kind of Life After Brexit. Public services and housing are a key part of that but there are other questions which the Shadow Chancellor ducked and which he will need to address as the GE approaches.
John McDonnell comes across very well .in one to one interviews.I saw him on Peston on Sunday he has an air of confidence , smart , and self assured .I think many opposing him , underestimate him , and rely on non economic attacks, which I think is complacent.
Scotland Yard ask for more money for investigation into Madeline McCann.
Without being unkind the McCann's have had substantial money given to their cause which I would suspect is many thousands more than other missing children and the time must arrive when it is not sustainable
Wouldn't you rather spend more time in the Algarve than patrolling the streets of London?
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
You are pro EU and like many unhappy with the referendum. The Country is divided and there are no easy answers.
However, a hard left government led by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster post Brexit.
Furthermore, they will not gain middle England to form that government
Project Fear I see back out.
You frighten easily
I'm all a quiver.
But not over Brexit or a Labour Party in government. Oh sure I'd be poorer (wouldn't we all) but it's not something I'm actually scared of.
Bemused, more, that those who decry Project Fear around one particular political outcome, readily use it themselves about another.
Surely it's about what constitutes the "fear factor" rather than naming it as such, the user calls it "the truth". Ya-boo.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Not once they know the real cost and the march of the unions into number 10
It's all very well to highlight this with a reference to 'last time' for old fossils like you and me, but to the younger generations who don't have our first hand recollection and experience it is a meaningless comment.
Unions aren't that bad to most people now. They haven't wielded unfettered power and caused disruption in most voters memory.
That is true but if Corbyn gets in they are going to learn very quicly the horrors of unfettered union control of our essential services
Can a Corbyn led Labour Government be any worse than Brexit in younger peoples mind? I think the answer is NO. Brexit could unleash many destructive forces on the economy and who will be to blame but the Tories. Basically the economy will be recalibrated toward a pre 1973 model, that means more Government interference and each person who wanted Brexit in the Tories will only have themselves to blame. I junked my membership of that party in 2015 and I do not regret for a single day leaving as it is overrun by people obsessed by what Europe does even if we leave. They are as mad as a box of frogs. They don't care if other peoples jobs are destroyed, families smashed apart and the like as long as they are alright.
I understand your frustrations, indeed share some of them. But those who will suffer most in a Corbyn run economy will be the young.
The young. And the poor.
And when the NHS runs out of money - because those that fund it will have moved on to less punitive tax regimes - the sick.
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Well, I don't take too much store by the Venezuela analogy which is good for political knockabout but that's all. If I were to offer an analogy of where I think the Corbyn agenda sits, I'd equate it to the socialist Government of France under Mauroy from 1981 to 1984 which was advocating entirely different policies to Thatcher and Reagan at that time.
Was that France successful ? Not really but as we're seeing now in Germany, traditional working practices are coming under pressure and the "long hours culture" is increasingly seen as being archaic and counter-productive.
Cannot believe the statement by Mark Goldring, Oxfam Chief Exec. As @Ishmael_Z notes, I bet he is grateful to her.
He should resign. Timing of appointment should make no difference. He was and is in charge of an organisation that manifestly failed both at the time and since, to uphold required standards of behaviour.
How on earth does he get away with not resigning?
Because leaders have stopped realising that the single most important thing about leadership is taking responsibility, even if it is not your fault. It is your body that goes in front of the train first. That is what being a leader means.
Taking responsibility is one of those old-fashioned concepts that now gets read about in history books. Leaders now take the money and the glory and think they're worth it. They forget that leadership is an obligation not a reward.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
What do you think I think it means?
Well, for a start, you said it would solve the NI border - it wouldn't.
Cannot believe the statement by Mark Goldring, Oxfam Chief Exec. As @Ishmael_Z notes, I bet he is grateful to her.
He should resign. Timing of appointment should make no difference. He was and is in charge of an organisation that manifestly failed both at the time and since, to uphold required standards of behaviour.
How on earth does he get away with not resigning?
He doesn’t. Just needs the next shoe to drop
Were they allowed to wear shoes? Or was it just T-shirts?
It's rare these days but I do agree with young @Topping. Economic arguments have lost their sting. The Tories have already trashed the public purse, another few hundred billion is neither here nor there. I exaggerate for effect, but really, given the size of our national debt and our continuing deficit spending, can the Tories really go hard on Labours economic plans? At least Labour have a vision.
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Well, I don't take too much store by the Venezuela analogy which is good for political knockabout but that's all. If I were to offer an analogy of where I think the Corbyn agenda sits, I'd equate it to the socialist Government of France under Mauroy from 1981 to 1984 which was advocating entirely different policies to Thatcher and Reagan at that time.
Was that France successful ? Not really but as we're seeing now in Germany, traditional working practices are coming under pressure and the "long hours culture" is increasingly seen as being archaic and counter-productive.
Those reduced German working hours are just in preparation for empty order books when Barnier causes a hard Brexit.....
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
What do you think I think it means?
Well, for a start, you said it would solve the NI border - it wouldn't.
What would solve the NI border problem?
The ROI and the EU admitting that they aren't serious about putting up border infrastructure.
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Well, I don't take too much store by the Venezuela analogy which is good for political knockabout but that's all. If I were to offer an analogy of where I think the Corbyn agenda sits, I'd equate it to the socialist Government of France under Mauroy from 1981 to 1984 which was advocating entirely different policies to Thatcher and Reagan at that time.
Was that France successful ? Not really but as we're seeing now in Germany, traditional working practices are coming under pressure and the "long hours culture" is increasingly seen as being archaic and counter-productive.
Those French socialist policies were pretty quickly abandoned when they proved to be counter-productive. Not surprising since Mitterand was never that much of a socialist by conviction. He started out on the far right and adapted his convictions as needed to maximise his chances of gaining and holding onto power.
Corbyn seems to believe what he says and has repeatedly praised Venezuela. He has never described French socialism as an inspiration so you may be projecting onto him what you hope his policies will mean rather than what he has actually said.
John McDonnell comes across very well .in one to one interviews.I saw him on Peston on Sunday he has an air of confidence , smart , and self assured .I think many opposing him , underestimate him , and rely on non economic attacks, which I think is complacent.
Indeed. He is improving with time and I do wonder if he will be the Stafford Cripps de nos jours. He may disappoint many and surprise some.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
You have excess water in Scotland...
We have an excess of midges in Scotland, if anyone wants a couple of million or so, just let me know....
You should farm them. Insect protein steak will be the staple food of the 2030s...
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Well, I don't take too much store by the Venezuela analogy which is good for political knockabout but that's all. If I were to offer an analogy of where I think the Corbyn agenda sits, I'd equate it to the socialist Government of France under Mauroy from 1981 to 1984 which was advocating entirely different policies to Thatcher and Reagan at that time.
Was that France successful ? Not really but as we're seeing now in Germany, traditional working practices are coming under pressure and the "long hours culture" is increasingly seen as being archaic and counter-productive.
I don't think Mauroy was anything like as loony-left as McDonnell is, but leaving that aside, let's follow your example. Within 3 years, as Wikipedia puts it:
Although the Mauroy government's social policies improved the living standards of the less well-off in French society,[8] its reflationary economic strategy (based on encouraging domestic consumption) failed to improve the French economy in the long term, with increases in the level of inflation as well as in the trade and budget deficits.[45] Although the government’s reflationary policies tended to stabilise unemployment, the number of people out of work topped 2 million, in spite of a pledge made by Mitterrand to keep it below this figure. A large budget deficit emerged, with social benefits and aid to industry alone going up by 50% in the 1982 budget. In addition, private investment failed to respond to the government’s initiatives, with a 12% decline in volume in 1981. This led Mauroy to advocate the abandonment of Socialist economic policies (which failed to reduce unemployment and inflation), a controversial "U-turn" which was ratified by President Mitterrand in March 1983, and a number of austerity measures were carried out.[56][57] In 1982, housing allowances were decoupled from the cost-of-living adjustment index. In 1982 and 1983, eligibility for unemployment benefits was tightened. A complex set of changes introduced in 1983 surrounding early retirement effectively reduced guarantees to full pensions for early retirees. Daily charges for hospital beds were introduced, while a variety of medical reimbursements were reduced.[58] In September 1982, the indexation of wages and salaries in the public sector was abolished.[7]
As a lifelong Labour supporter whose flesh crawls at the sight of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott in charge of the party of Attlee, Wilson and Smith, I find this article unbelievably complacent.
Not much to be done it says.
*Labour has just lost its third consecutive election with a tally of seats similar to Gordon Brown's defeat in 2010 * Labour is currently 3 to 4 points behind the Tories, even now when the Tories are running the country so badly, and at a time when oppositions are usually ahead. Labour is heading for a fourth election defeat. * Labour's sums do not add up. It has a vast spending programme but it says that it can pay for it all without putting up any tax except for the rich and Corporation Tax. Labour's revenue would be about the same as available to Blair and Brown in the 2000s, its spending programme similar to that of the Labour governments in the 60s and 70s. All polls put Labour behind in economic competence. *Its leadership is dire. Corbyn who thinks that Venezuela is the ideal socialist state. McDonnell who thinks he can get away with hiding behind a threat to lynch a female MP by saying he was only quoting. Abbott who cannot count correctly.
* Anti semitism is rife in the Labour Party. * Militant is taking over the Labour Party with a new name Momentum. *Labour is gripped by a Cult of Personality which is dangerous in any democracy. Songs, poems and worship of the Leader which is reminiscent of Stalinism at its worst.
* Intimidation online by Corbyn fanatics towards moderates, and critical journalists.
I wonder what those who think that Labour is coasting towards general election victory will say when Labour loses again in 2022.
Did you notice I didnt mention Brexit once in that post.
It's rare these days but I do agree with young @Topping. Economic arguments have lost their sting. The Tories have already trashed the public purse, another few hundred billion is neither here nor there. I exaggerate for effect, but really, given the size of our national debt and our continuing deficit spending, can the Tories really go hard on Labours economic plans? At least Labour have a vision.
It's rare these days but I do agree with young @Topping. Economic arguments have lost their sting. The Tories have already trashed the public purse, another few hundred billion is neither here nor there. I exaggerate for effect, but really, given the size of our national debt and our continuing deficit spending, can the Tories really go hard on Labours economic plans? At least Labour have a vision.
What choice is there but to go hard on Labour's economic 'plans' (if that's not too strong a word)? If voters choose to ignore basic common sense and all known examples from history, so be it, but we should at least warn them.
As might be expected those not well disposed toward Labour not happy with Don's comments (thanks for the piece, Don, by the way) and wheeling out the old classics of Corbyn going to turn Britain into Venezuela (well, at least it'll be warmer in February - perfect if I have to stand in a queue to buy soap).
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Bernie Sanders used Denmark as an example for his campaign.Democratic Socialism .He seemed to be onto something .However I would call Denmark Social Democratic.
John McDonnell comes across very well .in one to one interviews.I saw him on Peston on Sunday he has an air of confidence , smart , and self assured .I think many opposing him , underestimate him , and rely on non economic attacks, which I think is complacent.
Indeed. He is improving with time and I do wonder if he will be the Stafford Cripps de nos jours. He may disappoint many and surprise some.
Mr. Dawning, the first of those is irrelevant to the CU, and the last existed decades ago and is not necessarily a bad thing. Indeed, humans leaving a swimming pool are chlorinated and somehow manage to survive.
With chlorinated chicken, the issue is not is chlorinated chicken safe?, to which the answer is an unambiguous yes.
But, should British farmers be held to a higher standard of food safety (and therefore costs), than competitors?
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
You have excess water in Scotland...
We have an excess of midges in Scotland, if anyone wants a couple of million or so, just let me know....
You should farm them. Insect protein steak will be the staple food of the 2030s...
By 2030, your steak will come out of a 3D printer, like most of your food.
Probably from reconstituted midge protein. Buy into it now.....
It's rare these days but I do agree with young @Topping. Economic arguments have lost their sting. The Tories have already trashed the public purse, another few hundred billion is neither here nor there. I exaggerate for effect, but really, given the size of our national debt and our continuing deficit spending, can the Tories really go hard on Labours economic plans? At least Labour have a vision.
What choice is there but to go hard on Labour's economic 'plans' (if that's not too strong a word)? If voters choose to ignore basic common sense and all known examples from history, so be it, but we should at least warn them.
I seem to recall that was tried in a slightly different context a couple of years back. It was labelled "Project Fear" and a fat lot of use it was too....
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
You have excess water in Scotland...
We have an excess of midges in Scotland, if anyone wants a couple of million or so, just let me know....
You should farm them. Insect protein steak will be the staple food of the 2030s...
You obviously have no appreciation of the size of a Scottish midge. That million or so referred to would make about 10% of an economy cocktail sausage
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Well, I don't take too much store by the Venezuela analogy which is good for political knockabout but that's all. If I were to offer an analogy of where I think the Corbyn agenda sits, I'd equate it to the socialist Government of France under Mauroy from 1981 to 1984 which was advocating entirely different policies to Thatcher and Reagan at that time.
Was that France successful ? Not really but as we're seeing now in Germany, traditional working practices are coming under pressure and the "long hours culture" is increasingly seen as being archaic and counter-productive.
Was that France successful?
Three key points to help you answer the question.
*unemployment carried on rising
*the franc was devalued three times
*In 1983, they had to completely volte face anyway - its still called the "tournant de la rigueur"
and they had all the same issues with deindustrialisation we had anyway on top of that.
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Well, I don't take too much store by the Venezuela analogy which is good for political knockabout but that's all. If I were to offer an analogy of where I think the Corbyn agenda sits, I'd equate it to the socialist Government of France under Mauroy from 1981 to 1984 which was advocating entirely different policies to Thatcher and Reagan at that time.
Was that France successful ? Not really but as we're seeing now in Germany, traditional working practices are coming under pressure and the "long hours culture" is increasingly seen as being archaic and counter-productive.
Corbyn seems to believe what he says and has repeatedly praised Venezuela. He has never described French socialism as an inspiration so you may be projecting onto him what you hope his policies will mean rather than what he has actually said.
As might be expected those not well disposed toward Labour not happy with Don's comments (thanks for the piece, Don, by the way) and wheeling out the old classics of Corbyn going to turn Britain into Venezuela (well, at least it'll be warmer in February - perfect if I have to stand in a queue to buy soap).
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Bernie Sanders used Denmark as an example for his campaign.Democratic Socialism .He seemed to be onto something .
Denmark! That loony-left country where they, err, ran a budget surplus for years, and where the finance minister apologised to voters for the fact that the 2008/9 crisis pushed them into a small deficit, and where they've been busy privatising for years (not that they had a particularly high proportion of nationalised industries in the first place).
Denmark is as you say a good example of a centre-left social democratic country, such as perhaps Blair or Alastair Darling might want to emulate, with higher taxes and higher spending than us but with sound finances, and a pro-private business mindset. It's not an advert for Corbynomics, though. The sad thing is that Labour could be proposing a Denmark-style model, but chooses not to.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
What do you think I think it means?
Well, for a start, you said it would solve the NI border - it wouldn't.
What would solve the NI border problem?
Ireland reverting to the default position pre-Varadkar; working together on a technological solution.
As might be expected those not well disposed toward Labour not happy with Don's comments (thanks for the piece, Don, by the way) and wheeling out the old classics of Corbyn going to turn Britain into Venezuela (well, at least it'll be warmer in February - perfect if I have to stand in a queue to buy soap).
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Bernie Sanders used Denmark as an example for his campaign.Democratic Socialism .He seemed to be onto something .
Ha! Denmark! That loony-left country where they, err, ran a budget surplus for years, and where the finance minister apologised to voters for the fact that the 2008/9 crisis pushed them into a small deficit, and where they've been busy privatising for years (not that they had a particularly high proportion of nationalised industries in the first place).
Denmark is indeed a good example of a centre-left social democratic country, such as perhaps Blair or Alastair Darling might want to emulate, with higher taxes and higher spending than us but with sound finances, and a pro-private business mindset. It's not an advert for Corbynomics, though. The sad thing is that Labour could be proposing a Denmark-style model, but chooses not to.
I did say I thought Denmark was in my opinion Social Democratic .From an American perspective it is socialist, as is our Marxist NHS.I would prefer that Labour were proposing a Denmark style model.
As might be expected those not well disposed toward Labour not happy with Don's comments (thanks for the piece, Don, by the way) and wheeling out the old classics of Corbyn going to turn Britain into Venezuela (well, at least it'll be warmer in February - perfect if I have to stand in a queue to buy soap).
Venezuela is chosen as an example because it embodies exactly his policies, and he has been enthusiastic in his praise what Maduro and Chavez have done. So it's an 'old classic' for extremely good reason.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
Bernie Sanders used Denmark as an example for his campaign.Democratic Socialism .He seemed to be onto something .
Ha! Denmark! That loony-left country where they, err, ran a budget surplus for years, and where the finance minister apologised to voters for the fact that the 2008/9 crisis pushed them into a small deficit, and where they've been busy privatising for years (not that they had a particularly high proportion of nationalised industries in the first place).
Denmark is indeed a good example of a centre-left social democratic country, such as perhaps Blair or Alastair Darling might want to emulate, with higher taxes and higher spending than us but with sound finances, and a pro-private business mindset. It's not an advert for Corbynomics, though. The sad thing is that Labour could be proposing a Denmark-style model, but chooses not to.
I did say I thought Denmark was in my opinion Social Democratic .From an American perspective it is socialist, as is our Marxist NHS.I would prefer that Labour were proposing a Denmark style model.
Apologies, I edited my response to make it clear that I agreed with your 'social democratic' label.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
What do you think I think it means?
Well, for a start, you said it would solve the NI border - it wouldn't.
What would solve the NI border problem?
Ireland reverting to the default position pre-Varadkar; working together on a technological solution.
Steady on - that's a bit too 21st century for the EU.
It's rare these days but I do agree with young @Topping. Economic arguments have lost their sting. The Tories have already trashed the public purse, another few hundred billion is neither here nor there. I exaggerate for effect, but really, given the size of our national debt and our continuing deficit spending, can the Tories really go hard on Labours economic plans? At least Labour have a vision.
What choice is there but to go hard on Labour's economic 'plans' (if that's not too strong a word)? If voters choose to ignore basic common sense and all known examples from history, so be it, but we should at least warn them.
The Tories are in no place to give lectures about not taking risks with the economy.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
What do you think I think it means?
Well, for a start, you said it would solve the NI border - it wouldn't.
What would solve the NI border problem?
Ireland reverting to the default position pre-Varadkar; working together on a technological solution.
Has it really come to that? Drones. Heaven help us.
Once again our resident Brexiters are complaining that the EU and Ireland aren't compliantly agreeing to pretend that a difficult problem that they have created can be imagined away.
If Britain is going to be outside a customs union, it is going to be outside a customs union. This does not seem too complex an idea for many but it seems to produce far too high a voltage for Leaver minds to handle.
It's rare these days but I do agree with young @Topping. Economic arguments have lost their sting. The Tories have already trashed the public purse, another few hundred billion is neither here nor there. I exaggerate for effect, but really, given the size of our national debt and our continuing deficit spending, can the Tories really go hard on Labours economic plans? At least Labour have a vision.
What choice is there but to go hard on Labour's economic 'plans' (if that's not too strong a word)? If voters choose to ignore basic common sense and all known examples from history, so be it, but we should at least warn them.
They've already done that once with Brexit. The Brexiteers actively discourage any kind of economic prediction. Warnings are not going to sound particularly convincing when Leavers finally get around to doing anything other than frotting themselves into a stupor over Brexit.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
What do you think I think it means?
Well, for a start, you said it would solve the NI border - it wouldn't.
What would solve the NI border problem?
Ireland reverting to the default position pre-Varadkar; working together on a technological solution.
Has it really come to that? Drones. Heaven help us.
'When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth'
Though. I don't think drones were part of it, IIRC.
Once again our resident Brexiters are complaining that the EU and Ireland aren't compliantly agreeing to pretend that a difficult problem that they have created can be imagined away.
If Britain is going to be outside a customs union, it is going to be outside a customs union. This does not seem too complex an idea for many but it seems to produce far too high a voltage for Leaver minds to handle.
Yawn.
Pre-Varadkar, the Irish govt. seemed happy to entertain a solution.
The Tories are in no place to give lectures about taking risks with the economy.
Tough. No one else is going to. If voters choose to ignore it, that's unfortunate, but there we go.
In any case I don't accept the premise. The Tories (with help from the LibDems, who agreed with them) have rescued the economy, growth has been good in comparison with peers, and job creation has been nothing short of stellar. Voters in the referendum chose to take a big economic risk (perhaps precisely because they felt over-secure), but the Conservatives can certainly demonstrate a good economic record since 2010.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
What do you think I think it means?
Well, for a start, you said it would solve the NI border - it wouldn't.
What would solve the NI border problem?
Ireland reverting to the default position pre-Varadkar; working together on a technological solution.
Has it really come to that? Drones. Heaven help us.
Not sure anyone sensible is suggesting drones.
But to suggest that the EU is going to fund the ROI to set up border posts at some or all of the 600 or so crossings and then sit back and watch as the republicans take pot shots, threaten and bribe the poor sods that have to work for this new ROI-EU border patrol is laughable.
A physical border isn't likely, much use, or remotely effective.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
What do you think I think it means?
Well, for a start, you said it would solve the NI border - it wouldn't.
What would solve the NI border problem?
Ireland reverting to the default position pre-Varadkar; working together on a technological solution.
Has it really come to that? Drones. Heaven help us.
'When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth'
The trouble is that once you eliminate the impossible, you're left with the very real prospect that the truth is that Article 50 must be revoked.
I'm sure there are things Labour could be doing better - I definitely think that at some point soon, they've got to get off of the Brexit fence.
The British Social Attitudes Survey does suggest however they are on the popular side of the public services/taxes divide:
"There are signs of a reaction against the fiscal discipline of recent years, 48% now say the government should increase taxes and spend more, a higher proportion than at any point during the last 10 years."
Yes, I would have thought that at some point Labour have to pivot to a more stridently anti-Brexit position. They could do this under Corbyn, but rather more easily under a new Leader such as Starmer or Thornbury.
Timing is of the essence, of course, and they may be right in letting things run a bit more before adopting the full-teapot posture but I don't think they should risk leaving it too long. That would invite the question 'why didn't you speak up sooner?' and that would never do.
I'd give it a few more months, no more.
Labour should say that they'd negotiate full access to the Customs Union. That would solve three problems in a trice:
Freedom of movement (we still wouldn't be subject to it). Northern Ireland border. Chlorinated chicken.
The grim irony (for the Tories) is that business would be happy with that, but Theresa dare not go there for fear of the Dream Team.
'Full access to the Customs union' doesn't mean what you think it means.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
What do you think I think it means?
Well, for a start, you said it would solve the NI border - it wouldn't.
What would solve the NI border problem?
Ireland reverting to the default position pre-Varadkar; working together on a technological solution.
Has it really come to that? Drones. Heaven help us.
'When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth'
The trouble is that once you eliminate the impossible, you're left with the very real prospect that the truth is that Article 50 must be revoked.
Nope, that falls into the 'impossible' realm - both politically and logistically.
Once again our resident Brexiters are complaining that the EU and Ireland aren't compliantly agreeing to pretend that a difficult problem that they have created can be imagined away.
If Britain is going to be outside a customs union, it is going to be outside a customs union. This does not seem too complex an idea for many but it seems to produce far too high a voltage for Leaver minds to handle.
Yawn.
Pre-Varadkar, the Irish govt. seemed happy to entertain a solution.
Of course it was created by Leavers. They voted to Leave the EU, thus upending previous arrangements. That's a simple statement of fact.
Leavers' inability to take responsibility for anything at all is one of the modern wonders of the world.
Once again our resident Brexiters are complaining that the EU and Ireland aren't compliantly agreeing to pretend that a difficult problem that they have created can be imagined away.
If Britain is going to be outside a customs union, it is going to be outside a customs union. This does not seem too complex an idea for many but it seems to produce far too high a voltage for Leaver minds to handle.
As you know I'm not a Leaver, but I still don't see what the problem is. There are currently customs regulations (you can't transport booze'n'fags across the border and sell them, without filling in the forms and paying the excise duty), and no physical customs posts are required. So why should the EU need to install physical customs posts on the off-chance that someone might load up a van with chlorinated chickens and take them to Dublin?
But to suggest that the EU is going to fund the ROI to set up border posts at some or all of the 600 or so crossings and then sit back and watch as the republicans take pot shots, threaten and bribe the poor sods that have to work for this new ROI-EU border patrol is laughable.
A physical border isn't likely, much use, or remotely effective.
What's laughable is the huge number of people who haven't noticed that the UK has already agreed to maintain full alignment in order to avoid this scenario. If you don't want full alignment, the onus is on you to come up with a better alternative.
Once again our resident Brexiters are complaining that the EU and Ireland aren't compliantly agreeing to pretend that a difficult problem that they have created can be imagined away.
If Britain is going to be outside a customs union, it is going to be outside a customs union. This does not seem too complex an idea for many but it seems to produce far too high a voltage for Leaver minds to handle.
Yawn.
Pre-Varadkar, the Irish govt. seemed happy to entertain a solution.
Of course it was created by Leavers. They voted to Leave the EU, thus upending previous arrangements. That's a simple statement of fact.
Leavers' inability to take responsibility for anything at all is one of the modern wonders of the world.
So, deflection?
Varadkar changed Irish Govt policy re: a border solution.
Even more ludicrous is the thought that such a line would persuade someone to change their vote from blue to red, although it might well work the other way round.
>40% of Tory voters support nationalising Royal Mail, railway companies and water companies. I'll admit that finding surprised me too!
Labour's proposed nationalisations are favoured by the general public according to the polling.
Ask them this: if there are billions of pounds going to be borrowed would you a) spend it on renationalising water, rail, Royal Mail or b) the NHS?
Their answer would probably be to invest in renationalising those industries, and use the vast and unending profits not only to pay off the debt, but also to invest in the NHS.
Besides, the Magic Money Tree always gives. Why not do both?
Given that in the last 7 odd years only £13bn has been paid in dividends by the water companies that Magic Money Tree is looking a little weedy.
Water should never ever be in the hands of private companies. We have great water supply and much lower bills.
You have excess water in Scotland...
We have an excess of midges in Scotland, if anyone wants a couple of million or so, just let me know....
You should farm them. Insect protein steak will be the staple food of the 2030s...
By 2030, your steak will come out of a 3D printer, like most of your food.
Probably from reconstituted midge protein. Buy into it now.....
Typo, obviously, I meant the Staples food of the 2030s...
Comments
Really the Tories have to get real - Brexit will mean the end of the Liberal Economic framework initiated by 1973 accession to the EEC and instead we will see the rejuvenation of the Nationalistic economy where Labour Governments intervene. I used to be a member of the Tories but left as Cameron gave more ground to the Eurosceptic nutters - they are a cancer eating away at the party. It is no longer a party of economic competence but a vacuous self serving elite of people who are in it for the kudos of being a minister and of course Brexit.
I think I will vote for Corbyn as Brexit will see us all poorer anyway - the rich should have to pay for it as it is derived from a Tory Governments arrogance.
There most assuredly are checks on the EU/Turkey border, despite the existence of a customs union.
The world has full access to the Customs union, providing their products meet standards.
He should resign. Timing of appointment should make no difference. He was and is in charge of an organisation that manifestly failed both at the time and since, to uphold required standards of behaviour.
How on earth does he get away with not resigning?
However, a hard left government led by Corbyn and McDonnell would be a disaster post Brexit.
Furthermore, they will not gain middle England to form that government
Can't say I disagree. There's nothing so economically disastrous that a dose of Corbynomics can't make worse:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/venezuelan-middle-class-economic-crisis-pawn-shops
And lets not forget that the "successful" privatized rail operators have sucked up far more subsidy than British Rail ever did.
Without being unkind the McCann's have had substantial money given to their cause which I would suspect is many thousands more than other missing children and the time must arrive when it is not sustainable
And the subsidy point is poorly made, especially if you consider it per passenger journey or passenger mile.
As might be expected those not well disposed toward Labour not happy with Don's comments (thanks for the piece, Don, by the way) and wheeling out the old classics of Corbyn going to turn Britain into Venezuela (well, at least it'll be warmer in February - perfect if I have to stand in a queue to buy soap).
I don't see much to argue with in Don's piece. I thought John McDonnell's video at the weekend compelling if not entirely convincing . I don't care who provides the services - water, rail, post etc but I don't see why making a profit for shareholders should be a priority over the provision of a service.
Don is also right to point out Labour should be about a vision or plan for Britain in the 2020s - a kind of Life After Brexit. Public services and housing are a key part of that but there are other questions which the Shadow Chancellor ducked and which he will need to address as the GE approaches.
"Brexiteers for Corbyn!" The new slogan for the New Britain .....
But not over Brexit or a Labour Party in government. Oh sure I'd be poorer (wouldn't we all) but it's not something I'm actually scared of.
Bemused, more, that those who decry Project Fear around one particular political outcome, readily use it themselves about another.
The current Labour leadership is at best Citizen Smith incompetent, and at worst thoroughly nasty. We have a shadow chancellor who thinks its ok to threaten to lynch women, a hopeless leader and if anyone thinks Diane Abbott is the dream home secretary, they must be insane. Militant is taking over the Party with a new name, antisemitism is rife, there is massive online intimidation against moderates, Corbyn supporters are creating a Cult of Personality with songs and poems to the Leader that we have not seen since Stalin, and Labour has just lost a general election with about the same number of seats as Gordon Brown in 2010, and is currently three points behind the Tories and heading for a fourth defeat.
Some of us are crying out for decent leadership in the Labour party -which is the cue for people like you to accuse me of being a Blairite or Tory because thats the only answer you can think of.
The big problem was with the way the rail network was privatised. not the fact it happened. The Government interpreted the EU rules as meaning they had to have a separate infrastructure and service provider for each network. This has made it easy for Railtrack/Network Rail to blame the Rail Companies and the Rail Companies to blame Railtrack/Network Rail for any issues. We would be far better having integrated companies which are responsible for everything on each line/region.
The creation and expansion of the railways was all done by private companies. Pretty much all of the destruction and shrinkage of the rail network was done by the nationalised company. I would hate to se a return to the bad old days of BR.
Of course this might be because they didn't do it right. Perhaps you can point to a counter-example, a country where Corbyn-style policies have worked well?
When socialism is 'done wrong' it tends to impoverish and enslave.
I'm not going to call you a Blairite or a Tory. Harold Wilson ran and won on a centrist agenda in 1964 and also because he offered a modern vision for Britain entering a new technological age.
I also think however you crunch statistics, calling the next election for the Conservatives is a bold move - you may be right, you may not.
The answer, rather boringly, is Not Much.
Don Brind"
Er! Team Corbyn can't see the net for all Team May putting in own goals. Far more fun to watch than waste energy playing....
And when the NHS runs out of money - because those that fund it will have moved on to less punitive tax regimes - the sick.
Was that France successful ? Not really but as we're seeing now in Germany, traditional working practices are coming under pressure and the "long hours culture" is increasingly seen as being archaic and counter-productive.
Taking responsibility is one of those old-fashioned concepts that now gets read about in history books. Leaders now take the money and the glory and think they're worth it. They forget that leadership is an obligation not a reward.
It's rare these days but I do agree with young @Topping. Economic arguments have lost their sting. The Tories have already trashed the public purse, another few hundred billion is neither here nor there. I exaggerate for effect, but really, given the size of our national debt and our continuing deficit spending, can the Tories really go hard on Labours economic plans? At least Labour have a vision.
Corbyn seems to believe what he says and has repeatedly praised Venezuela. He has never described French socialism as an inspiration so you may be projecting onto him what you hope his policies will mean rather than what he has actually said.
Although the Mauroy government's social policies improved the living standards of the less well-off in French society,[8] its reflationary economic strategy (based on encouraging domestic consumption) failed to improve the French economy in the long term, with increases in the level of inflation as well as in the trade and budget deficits.[45] Although the government’s reflationary policies tended to stabilise unemployment, the number of people out of work topped 2 million, in spite of a pledge made by Mitterrand to keep it below this figure. A large budget deficit emerged, with social benefits and aid to industry alone going up by 50% in the 1982 budget. In addition, private investment failed to respond to the government’s initiatives, with a 12% decline in volume in 1981. This led Mauroy to advocate the abandonment of Socialist economic policies (which failed to reduce unemployment and inflation), a controversial "U-turn" which was ratified by President Mitterrand in March 1983, and a number of austerity measures were carried out.[56][57] In 1982, housing allowances were decoupled from the cost-of-living adjustment index. In 1982 and 1983, eligibility for unemployment benefits was tightened. A complex set of changes introduced in 1983 surrounding early retirement effectively reduced guarantees to full pensions for early retirees. Daily charges for hospital beds were introduced, while a variety of medical reimbursements were reduced.[58] In September 1982, the indexation of wages and salaries in the public sector was abolished.[7]
So not exactly a great advert.
Bear in mind that Ms Patel was the responsible minister.
Not much to be done it says.
*Labour has just lost its third consecutive election with a tally of seats similar to Gordon Brown's defeat in 2010
* Labour is currently 3 to 4 points behind the Tories, even now when the Tories are running the country so badly, and at a time when oppositions are usually ahead. Labour is heading for a fourth election defeat.
* Labour's sums do not add up. It has a vast spending programme but it says that it can pay for it all without putting up any tax except for the rich and Corporation Tax. Labour's revenue would be about the same as available to Blair and Brown in the 2000s, its spending programme similar to that of the Labour governments in the 60s and 70s. All polls put Labour behind in economic competence.
*Its leadership is dire. Corbyn who thinks that Venezuela is the ideal socialist state. McDonnell who thinks he can get away with hiding behind a threat to lynch a female MP by saying he was only quoting. Abbott who cannot count correctly.
* Anti semitism is rife in the Labour Party.
* Militant is taking over the Labour Party with a new name Momentum.
*Labour is gripped by a Cult of Personality which is dangerous in any democracy. Songs, poems and worship of the Leader which is reminiscent of Stalinism at its worst.
* Intimidation online by Corbyn fanatics towards moderates, and critical journalists.
I wonder what those who think that Labour is coasting towards general election victory will say when Labour loses again in 2022.
Did you notice I didnt mention Brexit once in that post.
And at PMQs -neither does Corbyn.
But, should British farmers be held to a higher standard of food safety (and therefore costs), than competitors?
Probably from reconstituted midge protein. Buy into it now.....
Three key points to help you answer the question.
*unemployment carried on rising
*the franc was devalued three times
*In 1983, they had to completely volte face anyway - its still called the "tournant de la rigueur"
and they had all the same issues with deindustrialisation we had anyway on top of that.
Brilliant.
Denmark is as you say a good example of a centre-left social democratic country, such as perhaps Blair or Alastair Darling might want to emulate, with higher taxes and higher spending than us but with sound finances, and a pro-private business mindset. It's not an advert for Corbynomics, though. The sad thing is that Labour could be proposing a Denmark-style model, but chooses not to.
If Britain is going to be outside a customs union, it is going to be outside a customs union. This does not seem too complex an idea for many but it seems to produce far too high a voltage for Leaver minds to handle.
Though. I don't think drones were part of it, IIRC.
Pre-Varadkar, the Irish govt. seemed happy to entertain a solution.
In any case I don't accept the premise. The Tories (with help from the LibDems, who agreed with them) have rescued the economy, growth has been good in comparison with peers, and job creation has been nothing short of stellar. Voters in the referendum chose to take a big economic risk (perhaps precisely because they felt over-secure), but the Conservatives can certainly demonstrate a good economic record since 2010.
But to suggest that the EU is going to fund the ROI to set up border posts at some or all of the 600 or so crossings and then sit back and watch as the republicans take pot shots, threaten and bribe the poor sods that have to work for this new ROI-EU border patrol is laughable.
A physical border isn't likely, much use, or remotely effective.
Leavers' inability to take responsibility for anything at all is one of the modern wonders of the world.
Varadkar changed Irish Govt policy re: a border solution.