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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hurrah! Our sovereign parliament is taking back control!

SystemSystem Posts: 6,199
edited February 24 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hurrah! Our sovereign parliament is taking back control!

This is what Brexit was about: the right of Britain’s democratically elected MPs to take their own decisions free from the interference of Brussels (or, indeed, anybody else). Or perhaps not. Understandably, some pro-Leave MPs are so incandescent at the prospect that the Trade Bill might be amended so as to require “an appropriate authority to take all necessary steps [to conclude a customs union with the EU by Brexit Day]” that they’re burning as filament-white as the light bulbs you once got before the EU banned them.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280
    First.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,108
    Secondary.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594
    Bronze medal
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 8,576
    OT The Telegraph's obituary of the journalist Edward Pearce reveals he twice lost jobs for daring to criticise Mrs Thatcher. Theresa May must yearn for those days.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2018/02/22/edward-pearce-sketchwriter-broadcaster-historian-obituary/
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,981

    OT The Telegraph's obituary of the journalist Edward Pearce reveals he twice lost jobs for daring to criticise Mrs Thatcher. Theresa May must yearn for those days.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2018/02/22/edward-pearce-sketchwriter-broadcaster-historian-obituary/

    I think the reason he got sacked a lot was he couldn't write.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,981
    Oh and on the Donald Tusk story of course he is right. But it would have been better to keep quiet for a little longer. The managed divergence idea was a recipe for undermining Brexit anyway. Once you allow cherry picking you open arguments about which cherries to pick. I doubt very much all leavers would agree on which bits they want to keep.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,373
    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,148

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Looks rather more likely than not. Right now Theresa May's best hope is that Jeremy Corbyn will let her off the hook.
  • Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,828
    Let's say this amendment passes, does that make the Department for International Trade redundant?
  • Regarding the headline.

    Grrr, grrrr.

    I was going to use this headline tomorrow.

    I cracked this gag yesterday on PB.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,997

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Scheduled for after Easter now, I believe?

    Suspect some small concession is planned for next week, and the usual hope in politics that something might come up.

    I don't think the Govt can accept this amendment without a challenger to May's leadership following.

    I suspect a couple of Labour MPs will abstain, making it very tight indeed. Could even be a tie.
  • Mortimer said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Scheduled for after Easter now, I believe?

    Suspect some small concession is planned for next week, and the usual hope in politics that something might come up.

    I don't think the Govt can accept this amendment without a challenger to May's leadership following.

    I suspect a couple of Labour MPs will abstain, making it very tight indeed. Could even be a tie.
    I think the stronger possibility is that the government falls.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594

    Regarding the headline.

    Grrr, grrrr.

    I was going to use this headline tomorrow.

    I cracked this gag yesterday on PB.

    I was 90% sure that this was your article, based only on the headline!
    The 10% doubt was that it’s Saturday morning.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,516
    Huzzah, duck islands for all.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 5,237

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Suppose it was a free vote. How many Tory MPs would be in favour of a Customs Union?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594
    edited February 24

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Suppose it was a free vote. How many Tory MPs would be in favour of a Customs Union?
    It depends very much on the details of the proposal.

    Assuming we are free to conduct our own trade policy abroad, and can’t have domestic product standards forced upon us, then most Tories would be supportive.

    The amendment, as it stands, is so vague as to be meaningless, seems tailor made for the EU to offer a crappy deal on customs and trade.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,601
    Wittty and percipient lead, as usual from David.

    It's boh a strength and a weakness of May that nobody has any clear idea of what she actually wants an EU deal to look like in any detail, if indeed she has a preference. She appears to see it primarily as a matter of party management. While this means that nobody feels the confidence and enthusiasm that comes from following a clear lead, it also means that she can flexibly adopt a customs union as an objective, saying to the Brexiteers that she's done her best to avoid the commitment, but the numbers aren't there, so she will set out to make it as minimal as possible. And since trade deals with third countries are not obviously on offer on acceptable terms, she probably privately feels meh, who cares.

    As David says, even if Rees-Mogg was PM, he couldn't magic up a different majority in Parliament, unless he called an election, which would be a courageous move in the Yes, Minister sense. This sort of thing does mean that Brexit may turn out to be quite limited and we are heading for Norway plus fudge. Arguably that is quite British - muddle through rather than have clear-cut change - and also reflects the divided state of public opinion. Democracy, innit?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,981
    Sandpit said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Suppose it was a free vote. How many Tory MPs would be in favour of a Customs Union?
    It depends very much on the details of the proposal.

    Assuming we are free to conduct our own trade policy abroad, and can’t have domestic product standards forced upon us, then most Tories would be supportive.

    The amendment, as it stands, is so vague as to be meaningless.
    What do you mean by having domestic product standards forced upon us?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,617
    Even in a Copper Brexit, a Sovereign Parliament would be the Gold Standard to aspire to.

    I'll get my coat.
  • The Corbyn spy claims seem to have helped Labour.

    Corbyn claims fail to dent poll support

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f2a8fa32-18e4-11e8-9d2e-0477b9927049
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594

    Sandpit said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Suppose it was a free vote. How many Tory MPs would be in favour of a Customs Union?
    It depends very much on the details of the proposal.

    Assuming we are free to conduct our own trade policy abroad, and can’t have domestic product standards forced upon us, then most Tories would be supportive.

    The amendment, as it stands, is so vague as to be meaningless.
    What do you mean by having domestic product standards forced upon us?
    That products sold in Britain must comply with EU standards over which we have no control.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 4,224
    edited February 24
    ydoethur said:

    Even in a Copper Brexit, a Sovereign Parliament would be the Gold Standard to aspire to.

    I'll get my coat.

    The govt is more like comedy gold at the moment.

    Bring my coat when you fetch yours please and do not forget my hat :)
  • The Corbyn spy claims seem to have helped Labour.

    Corbyn claims fail to dent poll support

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f2a8fa32-18e4-11e8-9d2e-0477b9927049

    YouGov poll

    The first poll since the row showed the Labour lead up 2 points. It put Labour on 42 per cent, up one point, and the Tories unchanged on 40 per cent.
  • Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,865
    tlg86 said:

    Let's say this amendment passes, does that make the Department for International Trade redundant?

    More than it is already?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,964
    Corbyn has no sense of humour shock. What a bore.


  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 4,224


    It's boh a strength and a weakness of May that nobody has any clear idea of what she actually wants
    ...
    She appears to see it primarily as a matter of party management.

    :+1:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594
    Can we now all say that we laid Oprah and got paid for it? ;)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,964

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    You make this sound as if it’s good news for Jezza. 70% of voters have made their mind up.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,601

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,981
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Suppose it was a free vote. How many Tory MPs would be in favour of a Customs Union?
    It depends very much on the details of the proposal.

    Assuming we are free to conduct our own trade policy abroad, and can’t have domestic product standards forced upon us, then most Tories would be supportive.

    The amendment, as it stands, is so vague as to be meaningless.
    What do you mean by having domestic product standards forced upon us?
    That products sold in Britain must comply with EU standards over which we have no control.
    Well we have some control over them as the second biggest economy in the EU with all the influence that goes with that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,720
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), people without a sense of humour are not to be trusted. People with a sense of humour should buy my fantastic comedy. It's what Jesus would do:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adventures-Sir-Edric-Thaddeus-White-ebook/dp/B00GCAF2CI/
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,516

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?
    The attacks on Corbyn all seemed a bit desperate. If the Mail doesn't like someone that much, they can't be that bad.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,981

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?
    I think it is the blatant news manipulation that makes people sympathise for the target. In the last few weeks of the EU referendum campaign I was actually very nearly put off voting remain by project fear. And I suspect that Labour would have come third in 1983 if the press hadn't hounded Michael Foot quite so much.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,865

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?
    I would say the spy thing is a PR positive for Corbyn. He appears to have behaved correctly in his relations with the spy agencies when he is normally seen as unreliable. He can present the attacks on him as a witch hunt.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,964
    FF43 said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?
    I would say the spy thing is a PR positive for Corbyn. He appears to have behaved correctly in his relations with the spy agencies when he is normally seen as unreliable. He can present the attacks on him as a witch hunt.
    I think we are nearly down to the 25% who would still kiss their photo of St Jezza before bedtime even inform he killed Bambis mum.
  • Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

  • TGOHF said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    You make this sound as if it’s good news for Jezza. 70% of voters have made their mind up.
    It is the write up by The Times.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,516

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,383
    edited February 24

    And the Czech spy story's diverting attention from those things the country should be angry with him about. Like his total impotence and ambivalence in the face of Brexit. Infact it's giving him an excuse.
  • Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,364

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Well, that was probably the paper her mother read.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 11,795
    I see Donald T. triggered the snowflakes last night.
    Plus ça change.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,594
    edited February 24

    OT The Telegraph's obituary of the journalist Edward Pearce reveals he twice lost jobs for daring to criticise Mrs Thatcher. Theresa May must yearn for those days.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2018/02/22/edward-pearce-sketchwriter-broadcaster-historian-obituary/

    Blimey, that's just reminded me that the Thatcher worshiping righties on here getting het up about Corbyn promising some press regulation when Thatcher killed an entire ITV franchise over a programme she didn't like is pretty special.
  • Alistair said:

    OT The Telegraph's obituary of the journalist Edward Pearce reveals he twice lost jobs for daring to criticise Mrs Thatcher. Theresa May must yearn for those days.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2018/02/22/edward-pearce-sketchwriter-broadcaster-historian-obituary/

    Blimey, that's just reminded me that the Thatcher worshiping righties on here getting het up about Corbyn promising some press regulation when Thatcher killed an entire ITV franchise over a programme she didn't like is pretty special.
    That’s a myth. The highest bidder won a blind auction.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,575
    So.. at least 6% of voters are stark staring bonkers. Hardly a surprising revelation...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,865
    edited February 24

    Suppose it was a free vote. How many Tory MPs would be in favour of a Customs Union?

    Apart from the headbangers bloc and the saboteur gaggle, mainstream Tory MPs don't get much attention. As far as I can tell, they don't want to talk about Brexit and wish it would go away, but they're not going to sign up for a second referendum. They are responsible for the swathes of empty seats on the government benches in Brexit debates and look pretty uncomfortable when they do show up.

    I imagine they are conflicted on the Customs Union. They recognise common standards with the EU are necessary for business but don't want rule taking either.

  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,348
    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.
    I thought Guido Fawkes has more influence than the right wing press, nowadays.Well he seems to on here .So as you say , we might not be better off in the long run.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    So did Blair, of course.

    But, the world has moved on.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 2,986

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    CU Brexit has the advantage of resolving NI border, and minimal disturbance to manufactured exports. It also gets around the problem of not preparing any border infrastructure for leaving the CU.

    It really is a "no brainer" as perfectly possible to leave the CU at a later point to the nirvana of innovative organic carrot exports.

    The probability of the government falling over such a sensible proposal just demonstrates how idiotic the Tory party is.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532
    Mortimer said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Scheduled for after Easter now, I believe?

    Suspect some small concession is planned for next week, and the usual hope in politics that something might come up.

    I don't think the Govt can accept this amendment without a challenger to May's leadership following.

    I suspect a couple of Labour MPs will abstain, making it very tight indeed. Could even be a tie.
    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,575

    Mortimer said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Scheduled for after Easter now, I believe?

    Suspect some small concession is planned for next week, and the usual hope in politics that something might come up.

    I don't think the Govt can accept this amendment without a challenger to May's leadership following.

    I suspect a couple of Labour MPs will abstain, making it very tight indeed. Could even be a tie.
    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.
    I really detest the madness that is Brexit. Its going to damage the UK for decades.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,865

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Telegraph, I think, is the paper of choice for the dying band of geriatric reactionaries that is the Conservative Party membership. Also the Spectator, which is better journalism that pitches to a partly younger readership.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,383
    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.
    The political rules have changed anyway since Trump. The bar for honesty and integrity has been lowered and moved to such an extent that the right wing press like most other opinion formers are really struggling to know how to forward their agenda at the moment.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    Mortimer said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Scheduled for after Easter now, I believe?

    Suspect some small concession is planned for next week, and the usual hope in politics that something might come up.

    I don't think the Govt can accept this amendment without a challenger to May's leadership following.

    I suspect a couple of Labour MPs will abstain, making it very tight indeed. Could even be a tie.
    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.
    I really detest the madness that is Brexit. Its going to damage the UK for decades.
    Utter nonsense.
  • Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    So did Blair, of course.

    But, the world has moved on.

    Precisely my point. All Labour leaders - up to and including Ed Miliband - have been terrified of the right wing press’s power. Corbyn has shown that in the age of social media and multiple news sources, that is no longer necessary.

    It’s slightly different for the Tories, though. They have an older voting demographic that does still read the newspapers. Thus, headlines in the Mail etc still matter hugely to Theresa May and the rest of them.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,720
    Mr. Roger, Trump isn't the only thing that's changed.

    Broadcast media has become more slanted, and in politics it's now become commonplace to demonise/dehumanise opponents.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 2,986
    TGOHF said:

    FF43 said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?
    I would say the spy thing is a PR positive for Corbyn. He appears to have behaved correctly in his relations with the spy agencies when he is normally seen as unreliable. He can present the attacks on him as a witch hunt.
    I think we are nearly down to the 25% who would still kiss their photo of St Jezza before bedtime even inform he killed Bambis mum.
    Surely the killer of Bambi's mum was a member of the NRA? While kind uncle Jezza tended his allotment.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532
    On topic: take back control by giving away control.

    Yep. Right.

    This is one of memes Remainers perennially try and troll Leavers with, thinking they're being awfully clever and ironically witty, but actually makes no sense at all.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,865
    TGOHF said:

    FF43 said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?
    I would say the spy thing is a PR positive for Corbyn. He appears to have behaved correctly in his relations with the spy agencies when he is normally seen as unreliable. He can present the attacks on him as a witch hunt.
    I think we are nearly down to the 25% who would still kiss their photo of St Jezza before bedtime even inform he killed Bambis mum.
    Interesting metaphor. Part of the doubts about Corbyn's fitness for leadership is his unwillingness to countenance EVER killing Bambi's mum.
  • Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.
    I thought Guido Fawkes has more influence than the right wing press, nowadays.Well he seems to on here .So as you say , we might not be better off in the long run.

    Guido’s power has lain with its ability to initiate stories that end up in the newspapers. When the newspapers don’t matter so much, that makes Guido less effective as an attack dog.

  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,975

    Mortimer said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Scheduled for after Easter now, I believe?

    Suspect some small concession is planned for next week, and the usual hope in politics that something might come up.

    I don't think the Govt can accept this amendment without a challenger to May's leadership following.

    I suspect a couple of Labour MPs will abstain, making it very tight indeed. Could even be a tie.
    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.
    I really detest the madness that is Brexit. Its going to damage the UK for decades.
    Utter nonsense.
    The goverment's own assessment of the effect of Brexit is that it will damage the Uk for decades
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/the-governments-own-brexit-analysis-says-the-uk-will-be?utm_term=.wr5XLW1xKb#.cw0RakgQXm

    so in what respect is the previous comment 'Utter nonsense'?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Maybe we should just ban any press that doesn't agree with you, and advocation of the Tory world view too for good measure?

    If only the Leader of the Opposition was thinking along those lines.. *sighs*

    Oh.. wait a minute.
  • Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Maybe we should just ban any press that doesn't agree with you, and advocation of the Tory world view too for good measure?

    If only the Leader of the Opposition was thinking along those lines.. *sighs*

    Oh.. wait a minute.

    Why would I want to ban things I don’t agree with?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594

    On topic: take back control by giving away control.

    Yep. Right.

    This is one of memes Remainers perennially try and troll Leavers with, thinking they're being awfully clever and ironically witty, but actually makes no sense at all.

    They miss the point that the taking back control happens when we actually leave the EU.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    Mortimer said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Scheduled for after Easter now, I believe?

    Suspect some small concession is planned for next week, and the usual hope in politics that something might come up.

    I don't think the Govt can accept this amendment without a challenger to May's leadership following.

    I suspect a couple of Labour MPs will abstain, making it very tight indeed. Could even be a tie.
    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.
    I really detest the madness that is Brexit. Its going to damage the UK for decades.
    Utter nonsense.
    The goverment's own assessment of the effect of Brexit is that it will damage the Uk for decades
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/the-governments-own-brexit-analysis-says-the-uk-will-be?utm_term=.wr5XLW1xKb#.cw0RakgQXm

    so in what respect is the previous comment 'Utter nonsense'?
    Try reading this: https://briefingsforbrexit.com/recent-estimates-of-the-economic-impact-of-brexit/
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,981
    Sandpit said:

    On topic: take back control by giving away control.

    Yep. Right.

    This is one of memes Remainers perennially try and troll Leavers with, thinking they're being awfully clever and ironically witty, but actually makes no sense at all.

    They miss the point that the taking back control happens when we actually leave the EU.
    No we lose a lot of the control we currently have when we leave the EU.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Maybe we should just ban any press that doesn't agree with you, and advocation of the Tory world view too for good measure?

    If only the Leader of the Opposition was thinking along those lines.. *sighs*

    Oh.. wait a minute.

    Why would I want to ban things I don’t agree with?

    You and Jonathan seem to think neutering of the right wing press is a good thing.

    It's a very worrying thing to hear you say, from the two Labour posters I respect the most.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 8,576

    Alistair said:

    OT The Telegraph's obituary of the journalist Edward Pearce reveals he twice lost jobs for daring to criticise Mrs Thatcher. Theresa May must yearn for those days.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2018/02/22/edward-pearce-sketchwriter-broadcaster-historian-obituary/

    Blimey, that's just reminded me that the Thatcher worshiping righties on here getting het up about Corbyn promising some press regulation when Thatcher killed an entire ITV franchise over a programme she didn't like is pretty special.
    That’s a myth. The highest bidder won a blind auction.
    In a process most commentators believe was designed to axe Thames. The 1990 Broadcasting Act was dubbed Thatcher's Revenge.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,975

    Mortimer said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Scheduled for after Easter now, I believe?

    Suspect some small concession is planned for next week, and the usual hope in politics that something might come up.

    I don't think the Govt can accept this amendment without a challenger to May's leadership following.

    I suspect a couple of Labour MPs will abstain, making it very tight indeed. Could even be a tie.
    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.
    I really detest the madness that is Brexit. Its going to damage the UK for decades.
    Utter nonsense.
    The goverment's own assessment of the effect of Brexit is that it will damage the Uk for decades
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/the-governments-own-brexit-analysis-says-the-uk-will-be?utm_term=.wr5XLW1xKb#.cw0RakgQXm

    so in what respect is the previous comment 'Utter nonsense'?
    Try reading this: https://briefingsforbrexit.com/recent-estimates-of-the-economic-impact-of-brexit/
    That site is pro-Brexit ("to contribute well-argued pieces in support of Brexit"), I would rather trust the government's report (even though they are also pro-Brexit).
  • Mortimer said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?

    Likely.

    The former minister Anna Soubry, who tabled the amendment, said it was backed by the same 11 so-called mutineer Tories who inflicted a defeat during the withdrawal bill process. These include the former cabinet ministers Nicky Morgan and Dominic Grieve.

    “On this issue there are a lot of pragmatic Conservative MPs who hear what business groups like the CBI are saying and are prepared to make a stand,” Ms Soubry said. She expected the numbers to grow.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/band-of-tory-rebels-will-vote-for-a-customs-union-with-eu-2026g560j
    Scheduled for after Easter now, I believe?

    Suspect some small concession is planned for next week, and the usual hope in politics that something might come up.

    I don't think the Govt can accept this amendment without a challenger to May's leadership following.

    I suspect a couple of Labour MPs will abstain, making it very tight indeed. Could even be a tie.
    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.
    I really detest the madness that is Brexit. Its going to damage the UK for decades.

    Parts of the UK. London and the SE will be fine, but if the Brexit deal is sub-optimal - and it will be unless Mrs May finds the courage to stand up to her loons - then some areas will be hugely damaged. Many parts of the UK never recovered from deindustrialisation in the 80s and 90s. If motor manufacturing declines and falls because supply lines are no longer viable, what replaces the well-paid jobs it provides in a town like Sunderland?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,594

    Sandpit said:

    On topic: take back control by giving away control.

    Yep. Right.

    This is one of memes Remainers perennially try and troll Leavers with, thinking they're being awfully clever and ironically witty, but actually makes no sense at all.

    They miss the point that the taking back control happens when we actually leave the EU.
    No we lose a lot of the control we currently have when we leave the EU.
    The control moves from the EU to the UK. Those of us who voted to leave see the real power being with those we elect - and can fire - to be a good thing.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,504
    The Corbyn spy story hasn't taken hold because Jezza isn't seen as having the brains to be dangerous. Playing with his manhole covers and making jam does not James Bond make.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280
    The Stafford Hospital scandal and Nick Palmer's attitude to the Oxfam scandal shows where a neutered right-wing press would lead: organisations that are seen as 'good' by the left can get away with doing bad things because they are 'good'. Criticising the bad things means you are criticising the organisation, and as that organisation's good, you're bad.

    We need left- and right-wing biased media organisations that are willing to shine bright lights onto the wrongdoings of the other side. Ideally they'd do the same for their own side, but we can't ask too much ...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532
    In the last few days, I'd begun to think "No Deal" is back on again as a realistic possibility. That's because of both the EU's behaviour, specifically the eurocrats and the EU Commission, and that of the irreconcilable in both the Lords and the Commons seeking to upend what the (largely pragmatic) Governments on both sides of the channel are trying to do.

    It could all fall apart very quickly.
  • Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Maybe we should just ban any press that doesn't agree with you, and advocation of the Tory world view too for good measure?

    If only the Leader of the Opposition was thinking along those lines.. *sighs*

    Oh.. wait a minute.

    Why would I want to ban things I don’t agree with?

    You and Jonathan seem to think neutering of the right wing press is a good thing.

    It's a very worrying thing to hear you say, from the two Labour posters I respect the most.

    I think it’s good that the market forces I believe in mean the right wing press is less influential than it was. That is a long way from wanting to ban it.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,601


    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    The other thing, I think, is that voters rate unflappability in potential PMs highly (and May scores well on this as well). If Corbyn had run around screaming at the evil press on day one, people would have thought he might not be a spy but he was unreliable under pressure. As it is, people might feel his policies are unwise or unclear, but they don't see him as likely to do all kinds of sudden random stuff as, say, Scargill would have done as PM.

    The counter-example is of course Trump, who nobody could call unflappable and who reacts to provocations like a 10-year-old. But the "I'm strong and take no crap for one second before I retaliate" self-image has its followers too, perhaps more in the USA than Britain.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,601



    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.

    Idle curiosity: in 2015, knowing what you know now, would you have supported Conservatives for Palmer? To be perfectly honest, I think AS is causing the Tories more trouble than I ever did, by a large margin. But I know you're not a fan of either of us.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,516

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Maybe we should just ban any press that doesn't agree with you, and advocation of the Tory world view too for good measure?

    If only the Leader of the Opposition was thinking along those lines.. *sighs*

    Oh.. wait a minute.

    Why would I want to ban things I don’t agree with?

    You and Jonathan seem to think neutering of the right wing press is a good thing.

    It's a very worrying thing to hear you say, from the two Labour posters I respect the most.
    People are voting with their wallets not to buy the tired old rags. What's not to like, especially when they've long since stopped covering news and morphed into gossip comics?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,865

    On topic: take back control by giving away control.

    Yep. Right.

    This is one of memes Remainers perennially try and troll Leavers with, thinking they're being awfully clever and ironically witty, but actually makes no sense at all.

    It's not clever. It is the fundamental contradiction of the Leave position. You can have a Brexit that gives you control or you can have Brexit where you keep some of the connections and current prosperity. You can't have both. The Leave campaign promised control, more money and no change to things you like. That was their biggest lie.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Maybe we should just ban any press that doesn't agree with you, and advocation of the Tory world view too for good measure?

    If only the Leader of the Opposition was thinking along those lines.. *sighs*

    Oh.. wait a minute.

    Why would I want to ban things I don’t agree with?

    You and Jonathan seem to think neutering of the right wing press is a good thing.

    It's a very worrying thing to hear you say, from the two Labour posters I respect the most.

    I think it’s good that the market forces I believe in mean the right wing press is less influential than it was. That is a long way from wanting to ban it.
    I'd love the BBC to be less politically influential than it is. Or does the influence argument apply only to the right-wing press?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 1,966
    edited February 24



    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.

    Idle curiosity: in 2015, knowing what you know now, would you have supported Conservatives for Palmer? To be perfectly honest, I think AS is causing the Tories more trouble than I ever did, by a large margin. But I know you're not a fan of either of us.
    If there's a 'Labour for Soubry' faction, I'd be grateful if you could tell me how I might join.

    p.s Full disclosure: I'm not a Broxtowe constituent.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Maybe we should just ban any press that doesn't agree with you, and advocation of the Tory world view too for good measure?

    If only the Leader of the Opposition was thinking along those lines.. *sighs*

    Oh.. wait a minute.

    Why would I want to ban things I don’t agree with?

    You and Jonathan seem to think neutering of the right wing press is a good thing.

    It's a very worrying thing to hear you say, from the two Labour posters I respect the most.
    People are voting with their wallets not to buy the tired old rags. What's not to like, especially when they've long since stopped covering news and morphed into gossip comics?

    I’m struggling with the notion that an overweening, all-powerful Daily Mail is a necessary bedrock of a functioning democracy!

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,217

    I see Donald T. triggered the snowflakes last night...

    In the context of a school shooting, that's a pretty tasteless choice of phrase.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    Mortimer said:

    Could even be a tie.
    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.
    I really detest the madness that is Brexit. Its going to damage the UK for decades.
    Utter nonsense.
    The goverment's own assessment of the effect of Brexit is that it will damage the Uk for decades
    https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/the-governments-own-brexit-analysis-says-the-uk-will-be?utm_term=.wr5XLW1xKb#.cw0RakgQXm

    so in what respect is the previous comment 'Utter nonsense'?
    Try reading this: https://briefingsforbrexit.com/recent-estimates-of-the-economic-impact-of-brexit/
    That site is pro-Brexit ("to contribute well-argued pieces in support of Brexit"), I would rather trust the government's report (even though they are also pro-Brexit).
    Right, I've got it: you're dismissing the evidence without even bothering to read it.

    Everyone has an opinion. Civil servants included. And they, like most university professors and academics, will be pro-Remain. And often strongly pro-Remain. No-one is fully objective in this. So, if you are intellectually self-confident, and truly interested in understanding likelihood, accuracy, and error, you have to look at the modelling assumptions they are using, the underlying evidence behind them, and challenge the basis upon which the model is made.

    If they are instinctively coming at it from a different point of view, that makes it even more important to read it, not less.

    I'll help you out....

    (1 of 2)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    Mortimer said:

    Realistically, how likely is the CU amendment to pass?


    I
    I
    U
    T
    Tr/
    That site is pro-Brexit ("to contribute well-argued pieces in support of Brexit"), I would rather trust the government's report (even though they are also pro-Brexit).
    (2 of 2)

    "The population forecasts are based on CE’s assumptions that net migration will fall from today’s level of around 250,000 people per annum to 100,000 due to migration controls. These migration assumptions then influence the forecasts for GVA and employment. What is implicitly happening in the CE forecasts is that most of the loss of output and jobs will be due to lower migration. Since 76% of the 4.3 million extra jobs in the UK over the last 15 years were taken by workers born outside the UK, the CE forecast is on solid ground in predicting that a Brexit-related reduction of job creation would reflect a lower level of migration into the UK. The impact on jobs for indigenous workers would be relatively small."

    "The UK economy is likely to be a little smaller after Brexit, mainly because lower migration will mean lower numbers of jobs and less output. We agree with CE that the living standards of the resident population are likely to be little changed."

    "The CE predictions are not very different from those generated by the CBR UK model operated by myself and colleagues at Cambridge and Ulster universities. Our forecast is based on a 2-year transition period followed by a free-trade agreement for goods only (i.e. no special arrangement for financial services). Our prediction is that by 2030 GDP would be 1.2% lower than in the baseline forecast, and employment 2% lower (a loss of 640,000 jobs), but per capita GDP would be higher by 0.6%."

    So, basically, the UK's economy may well be a little smaller *in overall size* than it might otherwise have been by 2030, but that's because of lower net migration. It will make virtually no difference to living standards by 2030 and, in fact, per capita GDP might even be higher.

    And, of course, if the UK operated a more liberal immigration policy open to the RoW under a future Government even that would go out the window.

    And that's just to 2030. 12 years away. So not decades, over which time Africa and Asia will be the tigers of the future, not Europe (and 94% population and 80%+ of the world economy is non-European even today).

    Think man. Don't let your pre-existing conclusions rule your head.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,516

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Maybe we should just ban any press that doesn't agree with you, and advocation of the Tory world view too for good measure?

    If only the Leader of the Opposition was thinking along those lines.. *sighs*

    Oh.. wait a minute.

    Why would I want to ban things I don’t agree with?

    You and Jonathan seem to think neutering of the right wing press is a good thing.

    It's a very worrying thing to hear you say, from the two Labour posters I respect the most.
    People are voting with their wallets not to buy the tired old rags. What's not to like, especially when they've long since stopped covering news and morphed into gossip comics?

    I’m struggling with the notion that an overweening, all-powerful Daily Mail is a necessary bedrock of a functioning democracy!

    The Mail has a pretty strong record in closing down free speech and different opinions. Traitors? Saboteurs?
  • Nigelb said:

    I see Donald T. triggered the snowflakes last night...

    In the context of a school shooting, that's a pretty tasteless choice of phrase.
    I think he means Tusk, not Trump.....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532
    FF43 said:

    On topic: take back control by giving away control.

    Yep. Right.

    This is one of memes Remainers perennially try and troll Leavers with, thinking they're being awfully clever and ironically witty, but actually makes no sense at all.

    It's not clever. It is the fundamental contradiction of the Leave position. You can have a Brexit that gives you control or you can have Brexit where you keep some of the connections and current prosperity. You can't have both. The Leave campaign promised control, more money and no change to things you like. That was their biggest lie.
    There was no lie.

    We will have more control, I think we will have (some) more money, there won't be big change to things we like, there will be no material impact on prosperity, and I can already see some things getting better: like agriculture and fisheries.

    We *might* have less geopolitical influence in the medium-term, at least whilst we establish a new global trading web and enhanced non-European foreign policy approach.

    I accept that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 2,986
    edited February 24
    Nigelb said:

    I see Donald T. triggered the snowflakes last night...

    In the context of a school shooting, that's a pretty tasteless choice of phrase.
    I took it to mean Donald Tusks Speech, after the EU27 Council, triggering Brexiteers, not Trump's asinine comments about the school shooting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,217

    Nigelb said:

    I see Donald T. triggered the snowflakes last night...

    In the context of a school shooting, that's a pretty tasteless choice of phrase.
    I think he means Tusk, not Trump.....
    Ah, my bad.
  • Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s not neutered - it continues to dictate the Tory world view. Theresa May’s entire decision making process is framed around how it will be reported in the Mail.

    Maybe we should just ban any press that doesn't agree with you, and advocation of the Tory world view too for good measure?

    If only the Leader of the Opposition was thinking along those lines.. *sighs*

    Oh.. wait a minute.

    Why would I want to ban things I don’t agree with?

    You and Jonathan seem to think neutering of the right wing press is a good thing.

    It's a very worrying thing to hear you say, from the two Labour posters I respect the most.

    I think it’s good that the market forces I believe in mean the right wing press is less influential than it was. That is a long way from wanting to ban it.
    I'd love the BBC to be less politically influential than it is. Or does the influence argument apply only to the right-wing press?

    I genuinely don’t get the point you are trying to make. I think trying to second guess the right wing press was bad for the Labour party. I am glad it no longer has to do it. I also wish the Daily Mail had less hold over Theresa May. Why is this wrong?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s

    Maybe

    Oh.. wait a minute.

    Why would I want to ban things I don’t agree with?

    You and Jonathan seem to think neutering of the right wing press is a good thing.

    It's a very worrying thing to hear you say, from the two Labour posters I respect the most.
    People are voting with their wallets not to buy the tired old rags. What's not to like, especially when they've long since stopped covering news and morphed into gossip comics?

    I’m struggling with the notion that an overweening, all-powerful Daily Mail is a necessary bedrock of a functioning democracy!

    You laugh, but I've defended the Guardian before to enthusiastic Tories who, at the height of Cameron's success in the 2008-2011 period, wanted to put it out of business by pulling out all public sector advertisements from it, and other such skulduggery.

    As you can imagine, I'm not much of a Guardianista. But it's vital to have a press that vehemently, defiantly, and rudely challenges all of your world views and prejudices from the opposite angle, no matter what Government is in power.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,825
    Our “sovereign parliament” has forgotten its role and purpose

    “Parliament” is not sovereign - the “Crown-in-Parliament” is. All it means is that the Sovereign authority of the Crown is exercised by the Executive (subject to oversight by the Legislature).

    The issue we have is that too many MPs are trying to govern - usurping the role of the executive - rather than fulfilling their proper purpose
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,280

    FF43 said:

    On topic: take back control by giving away control.

    Yep. Right.

    This is one of memes "Remainers perennially try and troll Leavers with, thinking they're being awfully clever and ironically witty, but actually makes no sense at all.

    It's not clever. It is the fundamental contradiction of the Leave position. You can have a Brexit that gives you control or you can have Brexit where you keep some of the connections and current prosperity. You can't have both. The Leave campaign promised control, more money and no change to things you like. That was their biggest lie.
    There was no lie.

    We will have more control, I think we will have (some) more money, there won't be big change to things we like, there will be no material impact on prosperity, and I can already see some things getting better: like agriculture and fisheries.

    We *might* have less geopolitical influence in the medium-term, at least whilst we establish a new global trading web and enhanced non-European foreign policy approach.

    I accept that.
    "We will have more control"
    "I think we will have (some) more money"
    "there won't be big change to things we like"
    "there will be no material impact on prosperity"

    Whilst I hope you are right, these are not certainties, especially given the ham-fisted way the government is approaching Brexit.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532



    I really, really detest Anna Soubry.

    Idle curiosity: in 2015, knowing what you know now, would you have supported Conservatives for Palmer? To be perfectly honest, I think AS is causing the Tories more trouble than I ever did, by a large margin. But I know you're not a fan of either of us.
    Sorry Nick, I couldn't have voted for you either. My issue with Soubry is not only her politics, but her behaviour and personality. I don't feel the same way about Dominic Grieve, for instance.

    In Broxtowe, I would have spoilt my ballot.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?

    The one absolute and undoubted benefit of Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is that it has shown that in the digital age the Labour party does not have to walk in fear of the right wing press. Funnily enough, it’s now much more of a straitjacket for Tory leaders - just ask Theresa May, she lives in permanent fear of it.

    Whilst the neutering of the right wing press is a good thing, it remains to be seen if we're better off overall.

    It’s

    Maybe

    Oh.. wait a minute.

    Why would I want to ban things I don’t agree with?

    You and Jonathan seem to think neutering of the right wing press is a good thing.

    It's a very worrying thing to hear you say, from the two Labour posters I respect the most.
    People are voting with their wallets not to buy the tired old rags. What's not to like, especially when they've long since stopped covering news and morphed into gossip comics?

    I’m struggling with the notion that an overweening, all-powerful Daily Mail is a necessary bedrock of a functioning democracy!

    You laugh, but I've defended the Guardian before to enthusiastic Tories who, at the height of Cameron's success in the 2008-2011 period, wanted to put it out of business by pulling out all public sector advertisements from it, and other such skulduggery.

    As you can imagine, I'm not much of a Guardianista. But it's vital to have a press that vehemently, defiantly, and rudely challenges all of your world views and prejudices from the opposite angle, no matter what Government is in power.

    I agree. And nothing I have written here suggests otherwise.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 10,212
    Jonathan said:

    Only 8 per cent of voters think worse of the Labour leader since the furore over his contact with a Czechoslovakian spy masquerading as a diplomat. Most of these were Tory supporters.

    The YouGov poll for The Times found that 64 per cent said it made no difference to their view of Mr Corbyn, while 6 per cent said it made them think better of him, mostly Labour voters.

    Lol. The Sun. The Mail. The Telegraph. The Times. The Express. All those trees dying in vain.

    I'm intrigued about 6% feeling that the allegation makes them think better of him. That's about 3 million people. Who knew that the 1980 Czech Secret Service had so many fans?
    The attacks on Corbyn all seemed a bit desperate. If the Mail doesn't like someone that much, they can't be that bad.
    It has less to do with the Mail and everything to do with the fact that the story seemed at best pretty thin.

    I yield to no-one in my dislike of Corbyn asa politician but this allegation seemed to be all smoke, based on what I’ve read. That Corbyn was sympathetic to the Soviets is known and nothing new.

    What concerns me much more is Corbyn’s approach to press regulation. He has no symapthy for press freedom and his instinct is to regulate and ban. That was the case before this story and it is one reason why I don’t want a Corbyn government.
This discussion has been closed.