Bottom line is that the Tories are making Jeremy Corbyn - Jeremy Corbyn! - look pragmatic, moderate and business-friendly. How is that even possible?
It's interesting that he's not as fixed in his positions as everyone (allies and opponents alike) thought. He's evolved a good deal as leader from professional insurgent to potential PM, losing purity but gaining credibility.
His 'purity' (which was always mythical, of course) is supposed to be his greatest strength, is it not?
Ignoring the parenthetical bit, yes, but he's got plenty of scope to whittle that down in favour of showing ability to deal with hard compromises. Nobody who likes him is going to say "Corbyn, what a sellout" any time soon. It's like the Tories being more liberal on gay marriage - it doesn't make anyone really argue that they've turned into an LGBT front.
It's a question of timing. He needs to try to hang on to the naive whilst edging towards those who have some grounding in reality, all without committing to any hard decisions. He's doing surprisingly well on that at the moment, helped enormously by the Tory chaos. Of course it's much easier when he's not close to an election, let alone in government, and ultimately it is doomed to failure because his policies are plainly bonkers, as the vast bulk of your former Labour MP colleagues would have freely admitted. The only question is whether voters can be conned long enough to get him into No 10.
Mr. Eagles, the Turkish model? Making us subject to the EU negotiating deals, whereby third party nations can enjoy benefits exporting to us (as per EU nations) but we do not enjoy the corresponding benefits exporting to them (unlike EU nations but like Turkey)?
It's almost as if staying in A/The/Ze/I Can't Believe It's Not The Customs Union is a bad idea.
I used the Turkish model because it is the most relevant case in this situation.
I expect ours would be more favourable given the difference in the economies of The UK and Turkey and relative importance of us to the EU27.
She won't be facing an entirely united Labour Party. There's the Labour Leavers plus Caroline Flint and other Brexit means Brexit Remainers. Tories flirting with the idea of rebelling night ask themselves if they really want to hand Jeremy Corbyn this victory.
Country before party.
A bad Brexit begets Corbyn as Prime Minister.
Soubry, Grieve et al are acting like true patriots.
How does their proposed amendment assist us?
Protects trade and the economy ensuring no disruption to trade.
It also solves the Irish Border question.
No it doesn't. If you think that you really don't know what you are talking about.
I have written reports from people who have worked, inter alia at the WTO, who say otherwise.
I know they are experts but I'll place more faith in their views than yours.
Of course you will, even when you are being dishonest or foolish you cannot afford to concede any points - just like you couldn't with the idiocy you were pushing about PCSOs on the previous thread.
So.
How exactly does being in the Customs Union but not the SM ensure no disruption to trade? (here's a clue, it doesn't)
How exactly does being in the Customs Union but not the SM solve the Irish Border question? (here's another clue. It doesn't).
I hope whoever you were writing reports for will be trying to get their money back if that is the garbage you are writing.
Let us use the Turkish model.
Do for non agricultural physical goods are there any customs restrictions between Turkey and The EU? Yes or No?
Pfff. You and your 'facts' and your 'evidence'. Typical treacherous Euro-shill. What's wrong with a good, old-fashioned, proudly BRITISH baseless assertion, eh!
And why bother with experts when you can fantasise, eh?!
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
That supposes the Irish (i.e. the EU) would respond in kind. They wouldn't. They'd simply dump stuff on us and choose very carefully what to accept in return. As would the rest of the world.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Say if they were suffering negative equity, would a LVT mean they get money back from the government?
So the tax is not based on the value of the home but the value of the land underneath the home. So negative equity doesn't come into it.
If you own land worth say 50k, then you might pay 500 pounds a year. If the value of the land fell for whatever reason, you would pay less per year. I can't see how the land could be valued negatively, but i suppose if it was you would receive money from the gov
Economically speaking its been described as a perfect tax - almost impossible to avoid, and with side effects of improving market efficiency. I also think there's a very good case that it could contribute to improving the stability of the housing market and reducing the risk of a future financial crisis in that area.
Will a computer model be providing an annual update on the value of each parcel of land or will it be a civil servant with a clipboard ?
What could possibly go wrong ?
Seems to work in many places. In New Zealand your “rateable value” is set every couple of years by the council. You are free to appeal of course.
The present system massively benefits those who are rich in housing assets. I’m in favour of change, although it would penalise me personally.
Would lead to a lot of council houses in city centres being not viable to maintain unless they were tower blocks.
Plus a lot of grannys being forced out of their houses.
Good luck with that in a manifesto.
A Labour government elected despite minimal support from pensioners could, and probably will, do it. A Tory government couldn't. I don't necessarily mind the idea in principle though I'd surely be a loser from it along with almost all homeowners in the home counties. Surely the % of land value would need to vary from region to region or there would need to be an absolutely massive transfer of receipts from south to north....such a system would further erode local democracy.
O/T I delighted to report that, as a result of changes in the inflation rate last autumn my OAP will be increased in April. Further, as a result of acheiving the ago of 80 a few weeks later my pension will be furrther increased by the magnificent sum of 25p per week.
I’ve no idea why it’ll cost me a further 25p a week to live then. Or what I’m supposed to need to spend it on.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Say if they were suffering negative equity, would a LVT mean they get money back from the government?
So the tax is not based on the value of the home but the value of the land underneath the home. So negative equity doesn't come into it.
If you own land worth say 50k, then you might pay 500 pounds a year. If the value of the land fell for whatever reason, you would pay less per year. I can't see how the land could be valued negatively, but i suppose if it was you would receive money from the gov
Economically speaking its been described as a perfect tax - almost impossible to avoid, and with side effects of improving market efficiency. I also think there's a very good case that it could contribute to improving the stability of the housing market and reducing the risk of a future financial crisis in that area.
Will a computer model be providing an annual update on the value of each parcel of land or will it be a civil servant with a clipboard ?
What could possibly go wrong ?
Seems to work in many places. In New Zealand your “rateable value” is set every couple of years by the council. You are free to appeal of course.
The present system massively benefits those who are rich in housing assets. I’m in favour of change, although it would penalise me personally.
Would lead to a lot of council houses in city centres being not viable to maintain unless they were tower blocks.
Plus a lot of grannys being forced out of their houses.
Good luck with that in a manifesto.
A Labour government elected despite minimal support from pensioners could, and probably will, do it. A Tory government couldn't. I don't necessarily mind the idea in principle though I'd surely be a loser from it along with almost all homeowners in the home counties. Surely the % of land value would need to vary from region to region or there would need to be an absolutely massive transfer of receipts from south to north....such a system would further erode local democracy.
Might be pensioners at the sharp end but when middle aged see their parents getting turfed out of their houses and see their inheritances going South - there will be a backlash.
It's just an envy tax and a tax on the immobile.
Smart investors will divest into gold, jewels, bitcoins...
Say if they were suffering negative equity, would a LVT mean they get money back from the government?
So the tax is not based on the value of the home but the value of the land underneath the home. So negative equity doesn't come into it.
If you own land worth say 50k, then you might pay 500 pounds a year. If the value of the land fell for whatever reason, you would pay less per year. I can't see how the land could be valued negatively, but i suppose if it was you would receive money from the govt.
Economically speaking its been described as a perfect tax - almost impossible to avoid, and with side effects of improving market efficiency. I also think there's a very good case that it could contribute to improving the stability of the housing market and reducing the risk of a future financial crisis in that area.
Will a computer model be providing an annual update on the value of each parcel of land or will it be a civil servant with a clipboard ?
What could possibly go wrong ?
Seems to work in many places. In New Zealand your “rateable value” is set every couple of years by the council. You are free to appeal of course.
The present system massively benefits those who are rich in housing assets. I’m in favour of change, although it would penalise me personally.
What about a block of flats? Small amount of land, large number of people. Does their "Land tax" work out at £10 per year or something ludicrously small?
Probably not as small as that - but that would be the idea. A block of flats is a more efficient use of the land available. The stereotypical stockbroker in his large house and enormous gardens would be harder hit.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Say if they were suffering negative equity, would a LVT mean they get money back from the government?
So the tax is not based on the value of the home but the value of the land underneath the home. So negative equity doesn't come into it.
If you own land worth say 50k, then you might pay 500 pounds a year. If the value of the land fell for whatever reason, you would pay less per year. I can't see how the land could be valued negatively, but i suppose if it was you would receive money from the gov
Economically speaking its been described as a perfect tax - almost impossible to avoid, and with side effects of improving market efficiency. I also think there's a very good case that it could contribute to improving the stability of the housing market and reducing the risk of a future financial crisis in that area.
Will a computer model be providing an annual update on the value of each parcel of land or will it be a civil servant with a clipboard ?
What could possibly go wrong ?
Seems to work in many places. In New Zealand your “rateable value” is set every couple of years by the council. You are free to appeal of course.
The present system massively benefits those who are rich in housing assets. I’m in favour of change, although it would penalise me personally.
Would lead to a lot of council houses in city centres being not viable to maintain unless they were tower blocks.
Plus a lot of grannys being forced out of their houses.
Good luck with that in a manifesto.
A Labour government elected despite minimal support from pensioners could, and probably will, do it. A Tory government couldn't. I don't necessarily mind the idea in principle though I'd surely be a loser from it along with almost all homeowners in the home counties. Surely the % of land value would need to vary from region to region or there would need to be an absolutely massive transfer of receipts from south to north....such a system would further erode local democracy.
One of the biggest problems with U.K. productivity is our land use. We need to fix our weird relationship with property.
It will happen. We’ve take income tax as far as it realistically can go - at least in terms of fiscal returns. Corporation tax needs to stay globally competitive. VAT is regressive. People are smoking and drinking less, and I’d expect to see less opportunity to tax motorists in the future, too. Commerce is going online which means business rates change can’t much...
Mr. Nabavi, yeah, it's like Labour and Keynes. They remember the bit about splurging money during a bust, and then magically forget the bit about running a tight ship during a boom.
These days that is true of all politicians not just Labour ones.
Ironically the last "tight ship" from a Keynesian perspective was run by Labour in 1997-2001, before Brown started splashing the cash.
When Brown continued to run the economy along the same lines as if Ken Clarke had still been Chancellor....
Yep. The days when my next door neighbour, now sadly long dead, who would have made Alf Garnett look like a progressive leftie, told me with a straight face that Blair's was the best Tory government since the heyday of Thatcher. Seems a long time ago.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Lol - but the current arrangements enable plethora of illegal products flow both ways over the border - drugs and guns.
Say if they were suffering negative equity, would a LVT mean they get money back from the government?
So the tax is not based on the value of the home but the value of the land underneath the home. So negative equity doesn't come into it.
a.
Will a computer model be providing an annual update on the value of each parcel of land or will it be a civil servant with a clipboard ?
What could possibly go wrong ?
Seems to work in many places. In New Zealand your “rateable value” is set every couple of years by the council. You are free to appeal of course.
The present system massively benefits those who are rich in housing assets. I’m in favour of change, although it would penalise me personally.
Would lead to a lot of council houses in city centres being not viable to maintain unless they were tower blocks.
Plus a lot of grannys being forced out of their houses.
Good luck with that in a manifesto.
A Labour government elected despite minimal support from pensioners could, and probably will, do it. A Tory government couldn't. I don't necessarily mind the idea in principle though I'd surely be a loser from it along with almost all homeowners in the home counties. Surely the % of land value would need to vary from region to region or there would need to be an absolutely massive transfer of receipts from south to north....such a system would further erode local democracy.
One of the biggest problems with U.K. productivity is our land use. We need to fix our weird relationship with property.
It will happen. We’ve take income tax as far as it realistically can go - at least in terms of fiscal returns. Corporation tax needs to stay globally competitive. VAT is regressive. People are smoking and drinking less, and I’d expect to see less opportunity to tax motorists in the future, too. Commerce is going online which means business rates change can’t much...
Pay per use for public services could raise plenty of money.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
Remember that evil American horse meat that was in Tesco lasagna ?
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
First, you need to be able to identify the chlorinated chicken or antibioticised beef before you can decide... so clear labelling required but wait, doesn't that imply a regulation - opps there goes our unrestricted free tradde offer.
Secondly, you and I (also in the sticks) may have the luxury of picking our food and food miles carefully but the most people don't. (Nor it seems from recent news do most restaurants care that much.)
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
First, you need to be able to identify the chlorinated chicken or antibioticised beef before you can decide... so clear labelling required but wait, doesn't that imply a regulation - opps there goes our unrestricted free tradde offer.
Secondly, you and I (also in the sticks) may have the luxury of picking our food and food miles carefully but the most people don't. (Nor it seems from recent news do most restaurants care that much.)
Why do you associate free trade with no regulation or labelling ?
Haggis is banned from being imported into the USA - am sure McSweens would be happy to put a big label on it saying "contains lungs" and enable exports to the US.
Might be pensioners at the sharp end but when middle aged see their parents getting turfed out of their houses and see their inheritances going South - there will be a backlash.
It's just an envy tax and a tax on the immobile.
Smart investors will divest into gold, jewels, bitcoins...
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
First, you need to be able to identify the chlorinated chicken or antibioticised beef before you can decide... so clear labelling required but wait, doesn't that imply a regulation - opps there goes our unrestricted free tradde offer.
Secondly, you and I (also in the sticks) may have the luxury of picking our food and food miles carefully but the most people don't. (Nor it seems from recent news do most restaurants care that much.)
We may be at cross purposes. I'm assuming that we will sign fairly conventional FTAs which, while they may abolish tariffs, have regulations regarding labelling, RoOs and so forth.
I'm with Gove in that we should have a race to the top, not t'other way about. A robust food labelling regime is, I believe, what most consumers want. Personally, I'm not bothered about chicken or antibiotics in beef (we're no angels - even Waitrose meat contains antibiotics). I just wouldn't buy meat from abroad.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
Two points on this. As Michael Gove has said, the primary concern about US chicken is not that the chlorination will hurt you as that it's masking the problems of very high-density chicken farming. This is primarily an animal welfare issue (so you can eat the chicken but you might not like how it lived) but also has possible health problems (e.g. overuse of antibiotics) and environmental implications.
Point 2 is the crude one: if there's ever something in food that tends to kill you, you can't assess it well by hearing what people say from experience, because the sample is biased to people who aren't dead. I'm not actually claiming that American chickens do kill you - it's more of a general statistical observation on all "Well, it's never hurt me..." posts. Used to be quite common among smokers - "I'm 83 and I'm still alive, so smoking must be harmless")
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Mr. Eagles, you may (or may not, of course) recall that I said many times I was fairly relaxed about leaving the EU in terms of a spectrum of reasonable deals. The only absolute red line I had was the customs union, and not being in it.
I do remember.
We're leaving The Customs Union.
Does Anna Soubry know?
She does, that's why she's backing leaving The Customs Union and joining A Customs Union.
And I'll ask the same question of her as I'd ask of Jeremy Corbyn: how much will A Customs Union cost us? Ball-park number will do, Anna. Show us some cost-benefit analysis.....
I believe the government's impact assessment showed that remaining in The/A Customs Union was of a huge net benefit to the country than not.
So I ask again - how much of that benefit are you going to lose by paying it over to the EU?
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.
Have you got as far as his toilet - with in-built enema?
No further comment required......
My disabled cousin rages at "having someone to wipe my arse for me" as shorthand for having a carer, on the grounds that arsewiping is the single thing that disabled-facing technology probably does best, and has for decades.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.
Glad to hear that.
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.
It has some at the moment, as you would find if you loaded up a white van with Jameson whiskey in Dublin, drove it to Belfast, and started hawking it around pubs there, without telling HMRC.
But 'some level of friction' (i.e. some administrative declarations for commercial traffic, perhaps with exemptions for small businesses and farmers) is not the same as a hard border, much though the naysayers would love it to be.
Mr. Eagles, you may (or may not, of course) recall that I said many times I was fairly relaxed about leaving the EU in terms of a spectrum of reasonable deals. The only absolute red line I had was the customs union, and not being in it.
I do remember.
We're leaving The Customs Union.
Does Anna Soubry know?
She does, that's why she's backing leaving The Customs Union and joining A Customs Union.
And I'll ask the same question of her as I'd ask of Jeremy Corbyn: how much will A Customs Union cost us? Ball-park number will do, Anna. Show us some cost-benefit analysis.....
I believe the government's impact assessment showed that remaining in The/A Customs Union was of a huge net benefit to the country than not.
So I ask again - how much of that benefit are you going to lose by paying it over to the EU?
We've already lost the benefit in its entirety through A50 (or we are in the process of losing it). Personally, I'd pay 75% to gain 25% of it back, given the corollary benefits of increased growth rates. Others will, of course, have a different threshold.
Mr. Eagles, you may (or may not, of course) recall that I said many times I was fairly relaxed about leaving the EU in terms of a spectrum of reasonable deals. The only absolute red line I had was the customs union, and not being in it.
I do remember.
We're leaving The Customs Union.
Does Anna Soubry know?
She does, that's why she's backing leaving The Customs Union and joining A Customs Union.
And I'll ask the same question of her as I'd ask of Jeremy Corbyn: how much will A Customs Union cost us? Ball-park number will do, Anna. Show us some cost-benefit analysis.....
I believe the government's impact assessment showed that remaining in The/A Customs Union was of a huge net benefit to the country than not.
So I ask again - how much of that benefit are you going to lose by paying it over to the EU?
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.
Glad to hear that.
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Perhaps we should be in a Customs Union with the EU? - just a thought
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
More likely, given it would go to tender, oursource it to the People's Republic of China (who, due to our open doors unitateral free trade policy would be able to undercut all competition).
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.
But could be all electronic.
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.
Glad to hear that.
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
So, with the current regulations some nasties get through; you use that to justify no need for any controls at all.
You might as well say: some burglaries happen even though it's illegal, so why not scrap that law.
As no supermarkets in the ROI will be permitted to sell USA chicken - what would be the point in importing them for export to the ROI ?
A criminal act would be required - similar to the horse lasagne.
And it will be illegal to retail non EU marked electricals in ROI, presumably, and the Garda can stop and seize them anywhere between the border and the retailer. Crossing borders is fundamental to a few crimes like illegal immigration and evasion of duty, in other cases the border is just de facto a convenient bottleneck in which to grab people.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.
But could be all electronic.
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?
In the same way as it doesn't stop non EU illegals now.
More likely, given it would go to tender, oursource it to the People's Republic of China (who, due to our open doors unitateral free trade policy would be able to undercut all competition).
" Matthew Field 20 FEBRUARY 2018 • 11:43AM The UK’s top cyber security agency has reaffirmed its commitment to working with Chinese smartphone giant Huawei after US spy chiefs accused the company of presenting a national security risk.
The Government and the National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC) will “continue to benefit” from collaboration with Huawei, according to an NCSC spokesman. It comes despite US government employees potentially being banned from using the Chinese company's smartphones due to security fears."
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.
But could be all electronic.
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?
There are no longer any Polish hop pickers. They were replaced by Bulgarian and Romanian hop pickers. Facetiousness aside, if you are a future would-be illegal immigrant, just get a tourist visa and overstay.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.
Glad to hear that.
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.
Glad to hear that.
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.
I'd expect Spanish nurses will still be able to come on holiday and bathe in our chlorinated swimming pools.
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.
But could be all electronic.
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?
In the same way as it doesn't stop non EU illegals now.
So voting Brexit to stop the arrival of Johnny Foreigner was all smoke and mirrors? The public must be told!
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.
But could be all electronic.
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?
Mr. Eagles, you may (or may not, of course) recall that I said many times I was fairly relaxed about leaving the EU in terms of a spectrum of reasonable deals. The only absolute red line I had was the customs union, and not being in it.
I do remember.
We're leaving The Customs Union.
Does Anna Soubry know?
She does, that's why she's backing leaving The Customs Union and joining A Customs Union.
And I'll ask the same question of her as I'd ask of Jeremy Corbyn: how much will A Customs Union cost us? Ball-park number will do, Anna. Show us some cost-benefit analysis.....
I believe the government's impact assessment showed that remaining in The/A Customs Union was of a huge net benefit to the country than not.
So I ask again - how much of that benefit are you going to lose by paying it over to the EU?
A small portion of it.
It's a massive net benefit for the UK
So give us numbers then. Cuz if you think the EU is going to let us keep the great bulk of that "massive net benefit" gratis......
She won't be facing an entirely united Labour Party. There's the Labour Leavers plus Caroline Flint and other Brexit means Brexit Remainers. Tories flirting with the idea of rebelling night ask themselves if they really want to hand Jeremy Corbyn this victory.
Country before party.
A bad Brexit begets Corbyn as Prime Minister.
Soubry, Grieve et al are acting like true patriots.
How does their proposed amendment assist us?
Protects trade and the economy ensuring no disruption to trade.
It also solves the Irish Border question.
No it doesn't. If you think that you really don't know what you are talking about.
I have written reports from people who have worked, inter alia at the WTO, who say otherwise.
I know they are experts but I'll place more faith in their views than yours.
Tyndall and R Smithson were arguing amongst themselves recently about what a free trade deal would mean we could or couldn’t do.
PB Leavers’ finest minds with no clue between them what Leaving actually meant.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
Why not?
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.
But could be all electronic.
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?
In the same way as it doesn't stop non EU illegals now.
So voting Brexit to stop the arrival of Johnny Foreigner was all smoke and mirrors? The public must be told!
Vacationing in the Uk will not be banned after Brexit - you heard it here first.
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.
Glad to hear that.
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.
I'd expect Spanish nurses will still be able to come on holiday and bathe in our chlorinated swimming pools.
...and eat our chlorinated chicken, fair point, so long as they go back to ROI when their visas expire!
'Customs Union' bad; 'some sort of let's not have any customs arrangement' good.
I am sure JRM and go won't see through that will they?
I wonder if TM is working on the basis that she holds her line until a vote in the HOC and in the event she loses the vote she accepts the decision and negotiates on that basis as the Brexiteer's will to all intents and purposes have lost their power.
It is unlikely to result in a vote of no confidence as not one of the rebel conservatives will vote to put Corbyn in no 10
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.
Glad to hear that.
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.
I'd expect Spanish nurses will still be able to come on holiday and bathe in our chlorinated swimming pools.
...and eat our chlorinated chicken, fair point, so long as they go back to ROI when their visas expire!
They probably wont need a visa for visiting either.
Just to work , access public services for free etc.
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an election
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.
Edit: and if you think JRM wouldn’t bring the house down around his ears on a point of principle, no matter how misguided, you haven’t been paying attention.
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an election
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own government
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an election
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own government
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an election
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own government
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an election
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own government
See my edit
Surely May can outflank both Corbyn and the loons by offering a second referendum.
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an election
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own government
See my edit
"Edit: and if you think JRM wouldn’t bring the house down around his ears on a point of principle, no matter how misguided, you haven’t been paying attention."
I see no evidence for that. No more than Soubry anyway..
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.
Glad to hear that.
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.
I'd expect Spanish nurses will still be able to come on holiday and bathe in our chlorinated swimming pools.
...and eat our chlorinated chicken, fair point, so long as they go back to ROI when their visas expire!
They probably wont need a visa for visiting either.
Just to work , access public services for free etc.
So cash in hand in the fields of Lincolnshire will be OK then! We've been conned!
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an election
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own government
See my edit
I just not see the path to a no confidence vote on the government in the HOC
Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would. But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.
Glad to hear that.
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.
I'd expect Spanish nurses will still be able to come on holiday and bathe in our chlorinated swimming pools.
...and eat our chlorinated chicken, fair point, so long as they go back to ROI when their visas expire!
They probably wont need a visa for visiting either.
Just to work , access public services for free etc.
So cash in hand in the fields of Lincolnshire will be OK then! We've been conned!
NEWS JUST IN : Breaking the law will still be illegal after Brexit !!!
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an election
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own government
See my edit
"Edit: and if you think JRM wouldn’t bring the house down around his ears on a point of principle, no matter how misguided, you haven’t been paying attention."
I see no evidence for that. No more than Soubry anyway..
Soubry is trying to stop her government from making a cataclysmic economic mistake, as she sees it.
Comments
I expect ours would be more favourable given the difference in the economies of The UK and Turkey and relative importance of us to the EU27.
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
'Stand up if you've won a world cup'
The locals got a bit touchy about that.
I’ve no idea why it’ll cost me a further 25p a week to live then. Or what I’m supposed to need to spend it on.
More importantly, Perez and Ocon are free to race*.
*one suspects this may have detrimental impact upon their car insurance premiums.
It's just an envy tax and a tax on the immobile.
Smart investors will divest into gold, jewels, bitcoins...
It will happen. We’ve take income tax as far as it realistically can go - at least in terms of fiscal returns. Corporation tax needs to stay globally competitive. VAT is regressive. People are smoking and drinking less, and I’d expect to see less opportunity to tax motorists in the future, too. Commerce is going online which means business rates change can’t much...
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/news/business/warning-of-the-dangers-of-counterfeit-straighteners-1-7010934
What like now ?
https://twitter.com/thomasknox
Secondly, you and I (also in the sticks) may have the luxury of picking our food and food miles carefully but the most people don't. (Nor it seems from recent news do most restaurants care that much.)
No further comment required......
You might as well say: some burglaries happen even though it's illegal, so why not scrap that law.
Haggis is banned from being imported into the USA - am sure McSweens would be happy to put a big label on it saying "contains lungs" and enable exports to the US.
At the moment it appears the only advocating m he is doing is to stay in a 6* hotel in the Seychelles...Not jealous at all..Not at all....
I'm with Gove in that we should have a race to the top, not t'other way about. A robust food labelling regime is, I believe, what most consumers want. Personally, I'm not bothered about chicken or antibiotics in beef (we're no angels - even Waitrose meat contains antibiotics). I just wouldn't buy meat from abroad.
Point 2 is the crude one: if there's ever something in food that tends to kill you, you can't assess it well by hearing what people say from experience, because the sample is biased to people who aren't dead.
A criminal act would be required - similar to the horse lasagne.
Coffee House
Katy Balls"
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/how-many-conservative-mps-would-risk-prime-minister-corbyn-over-brexit/
Paying millions to generate billions, does not mean "saving millions" nets you anything
Brexit is a cost, not a benefit
Take Back Control of our borders!Outsource border security to IBM...
Yeah, that's what people voted for.
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
But 'some level of friction' (i.e. some administrative declarations for commercial traffic, perhaps with exemptions for small businesses and farmers) is not the same as a hard border, much though the naysayers would love it to be.
It's a massive net benefit for the UK
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue
I don't think TMay has ruled out every sort of "arrangement".
In the same way as it doesn't stop non EU illegals now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/02/20/uk-cyber-security-agency-sticks-chinas-huawei-despite-us-spy/
" Matthew Field
20 FEBRUARY 2018 • 11:43AM
The UK’s top cyber security agency has reaffirmed its commitment to working with Chinese smartphone giant Huawei after US spy chiefs accused the company of presenting a national security risk.
The Government and the National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC) will “continue to benefit” from collaboration with Huawei, according to an NCSC spokesman. It comes despite US government employees potentially being banned from using the Chinese company's smartphones due to security fears."
The no customs restrictions agreement for example ?
'Customs Union' bad; 'some sort of let's not have any customs arrangement' good.
I am sure JRM and go won't see through that will they?
PB Leavers’ finest minds with no clue between them what Leaving actually meant.
It is unlikely to result in a vote of no confidence as not one of the rebel conservatives will vote to put Corbyn in no 10
Just to work , access public services for free etc.
Edit: and if you think JRM wouldn’t bring the house down around his ears on a point of principle, no matter how misguided, you haven’t been paying attention.
I see no evidence for that. No more than Soubry anyway..
https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/status/968161230732001280
JRM is ideologically driven.
One thing I like about Mogg is that he always seems calm.