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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the 7 Sinn Fein MPs take their seats TMay’s future & possib

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited February 27 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the 7 Sinn Fein MPs take their seats TMay’s future & possibly Brexit would be down to the Tory EU rebels

Lots of talk about today of the possibility that the Irish nationalist party, Sinn Fein, taking up its MP seats at Westminster. A call has been made by the prime minister of the Irish Republic, Leo Varadkar, who is saying that the Sinn Fein MPs should take up their seats at Westminster in order to make things better for Ireland.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 44,329
    Leo Varadkar is leader of Fine Gael though, quite a distance from Sinn Fein politically.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    Swear allegiance to the Queen - let's get it on tape. - would be just the latest abject surrender by the IRA/SF.
  • Cannot see it happening.

    Interesting it is a fear of the cabinet that it might happen, and that the DUP might abandon her on crucial votes.
  • It would be amusing if they swore an oath to the Queen and still lost the vote.

    What a disaster Brexit is that we need Sinn Fein to save us.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 41,640
    Although the support of pro Brexit Labour rebels like Hoey and Field could still see May scrape home on the Customs Union vote.

    I cannot see Sinn Fein taking their seats and the Oath of Loyalty to the Queen personally
  • FPT

    Barnier (news conference) just rejected Corbyn and Fox's proposals and said he is only interested in what the PM has to say
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,453

    I cannot see the Tory Rebels aligning themselves with SF, which is how it would be seen.

    (Not that I can see SF taking up their seats anyway.)

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,799

    It would be amusing if they swore an oath to the Queen and still lost the vote.

    What a disaster Brexit is that we need Sinn Fein to save us.

    OR

    What a disaster Cameron/Osborne's Referendum campaign was that you need Sinn Fein alongside Dominic Grieve and Anna Soubry to have any chance of staying in the EU. By defying the vote of the people.

    What a fiasco your political heroes left behind when they ran away from Westminster. But hey, they got better paid jobs elsewhere. So no biggy.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815

    FPT

    Barnier (news conference) just rejected Corbyn and Fox's proposals and said he is only interested in what the PM has to say

    Arf.
  • @JenniferMerode:

    Michel Barnier says he is concerned about the shortage of time between now and autumn, when Brexit is meant to be concluded. The clock is ticking (in case anyone had forgotten)

    The Brexit treaty will run to 168 articles and 120 pages, says Michel Barnier, but "no surprises".

    He used the word text, not treaty.

    He has also just referred to it as a 'draft withdrawal treaty'.

    Michel Barnier says there are "quite a lot of points of disagreement" on transition with UK and repeats his view "that we have not reached the transition yet".

    Michel Barnier says he agrees with Donald Tusk, when asked whether the three baskets proposal is an illusion. "The UK knows what the rules are."

    Brexit transition must be "short and time-specified" says Barnier. He says this is point of disagreement with UK.

    Officially UK position is "around two years".

    Unofficially many in EU think 21 mths or 2 yrs way too short.

    BIB - Is what I've been worried/warning about for a while.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 903
    Pulpstar said:

    Leo Varadkar is leader of Fine Gael though, quite a distance from Sinn Fein politically.

    FIne Gael are also known as the Blackshirts in Republican quarters due to their activities in the 1930s. They are the antithesis of Sinn Fein in so many ways.

    A messy Brexit suits Sinn Fein anyway

    Why break the habit of a lifetime to vote on an Anna Soubry advisory amendment. And the optics of Sinn Fein siding with Labour, the SNP and the Lib Dems to derail Brexit would of course be a godsend to the Toriesl
  • ABLAABLABLAABL Posts: 18
    It won't happen and would have to be approved at a national conference (Ard Fheis) first...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,848

    It would be amusing if they swore an oath to the Queen and still lost the vote.

    What a disaster Brexit is that we need Sinn Fein to save us.

    OR

    What a disaster Cameron/Osborne's Referendum campaign was that you need Sinn Fein alongside Dominic Grieve and Anna Soubry to have any chance of staying in the EU. By defying the vote of the people.

    What a fiasco your political heroes left behind when they ran away from Westminster. But hey, they got better paid jobs elsewhere. So no biggy.
    And there was I about to make a comment about the unthinking tribalism of Irish politics...
  • It would be amusing if they swore an oath to the Queen and still lost the vote.

    What a disaster Brexit is that we need Sinn Fein to save us.

    OR

    What a disaster Cameron/Osborne's Referendum campaign was that you need Sinn Fein alongside Dominic Grieve and Anna Soubry to have any chance of staying in the EU. By defying the vote of the people.

    What a fiasco your political heroes left behind when they ran away from Westminster. But hey, they got better paid jobs elsewhere. So no biggy.
    We're not staying in the EU, we're leaving.

    Anyhoo it looks like Mrs May is going to give in the rebel alliance anyway, so no need for the IRA's political wing.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815

    @JenniferMerode:

    Michel Barnier says he is concerned about the shortage of time between now and autumn, when Brexit is meant to be concluded. The clock is ticking (in case anyone had forgotten)

    Barnier seems flustered.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.
  • TGOHF said:

    @JenniferMerode:

    Michel Barnier says he is concerned about the shortage of time between now and autumn, when Brexit is meant to be concluded. The clock is ticking (in case anyone had forgotten)

    Barnier seems flustered.
    He is and it is becoming who blinks first
  • FPT

    Barnier (news conference) just rejected Corbyn and Fox's proposals and said he is only interested in what the PM has to say

    I thought this is what he said.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,675
    edited February 27

    FPT

    Barnier (news conference) just rejected Corbyn and Fox's proposals and said he is only interested in what the PM has to say

    I thought this is what he said.

    Sky reported as I quoted
  • So is Boris saying he wants it to be as easy to cross from the Republic of Ireland to Norn Iron as it is to get from Camden to Islington?

    I could live with that.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 4,316
    edited February 27
    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    ... and then he woke up with sticky pants.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815

    So is Boris saying he wants it to be as easy to cross from the Republic of Ireland to Norn Iron as it is to get from Camden to Islington?

    I could live with that.

    Yes - nobody wants a hard border - nobody will build a hard border - and nobody certainly will man a hard border.

    The EU and their local shills are still pretending one is going to magically appear.

  • How many MPs would be reluctant to walk through the lobbies with Sinn Fein.
  • How many MPs would be reluctant to walk through the lobbies with Sinn Fein.

    Lots and lots. I said this morning it'd push a lot of Tory rebels back into the government/abstention column.

    Ken Clarke points out twice the IRA nearly murdered him and on both occasions Jeremy Corbyn defended him.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 583
    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
  • The whole attitude of Sky and BBC is to take EU comments as gospel with no attempt to criticise them
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 738


    Brexit transition must be "short and time-specified" says Barnier. He says this is point of disagreement with UK.

    Officially UK position is "around two years".

    Unofficially many in EU think 21 mths or 2 yrs way too short.

    They'll settle on a formal two years now, it's convenient for both. Everyone knows it'll be 4+, they don't need to make things difficult in public by saying so.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,799
    Nigelb said:

    It would be amusing if they swore an oath to the Queen and still lost the vote.

    What a disaster Brexit is that we need Sinn Fein to save us.

    OR

    What a disaster Cameron/Osborne's Referendum campaign was that you need Sinn Fein alongside Dominic Grieve and Anna Soubry to have any chance of staying in the EU. By defying the vote of the people.

    What a fiasco your political heroes left behind when they ran away from Westminster. But hey, they got better paid jobs elsewhere. So no biggy.
    And there was I about to make a comment about the unthinking tribalism of Irish politics...
    Hey, things have come to a pretty pass if you can't troll the Trollmeister himself!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,547

    The whole attitude of Sky and BBC is to take EU comments as gospel with no attempt to criticise them

    Well yes, but also the same is almost true of the Brexiters who are allowed to spout the most appalling rubbish.

    The media is really letting us down.
    Instead of intelligent debate, we get at best mere partisanship (thinking perhaps of Faisal), and worst soft-ball questioning.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 22,135
    "EU will fight to keep Northern Ireland subject to EU law after Brexit, says Guy Verhofstadt"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/02/27/eu-will-fight-keep-northern-ireland-subject-eu-law-brexit-says/
  • Andrew said:


    Brexit transition must be "short and time-specified" says Barnier. He says this is point of disagreement with UK.

    Officially UK position is "around two years".

    Unofficially many in EU think 21 mths or 2 yrs way too short.

    They'll settle on a formal two years now, it's convenient for both. Everyone knows it'll be 4+, they don't need to make things difficult in public by saying so.
    4 year transition? Jacob Rees-Mogg will topple Mrs May if she tries that.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 583
    edited February 27
    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.

    The UK govt could choose to have a customs border along the Irish Sea if they still want GB to remain outside the CU, but they would lose the support of the DUP if they pursued this option.
  • The whole attitude of Sky and BBC is to take EU comments as gospel with no attempt to criticise them

    Well yes, but also the same is almost true of the Brexiters who are allowed to spout the most appalling rubbish.

    The media is really letting us down.
    Instead of intelligent debate, we get at best mere partisanship (thinking perhaps of Faisal), and worst soft-ball questioning.
    I couldn't agree more. I listened to Antoinette Sandbach yesterday in a calm sensible discussion with Adam Boulton and it was refreshing to hear her view put quietly and sensibly

    The Country is served by the poorest of poor journalists and second rate politicians
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857
    FPT in response to SteveF

    Imagine if Liz Kendall,
    had not been Tory Lite,
    Imagine if she had policies,
    that were not totally shite.

    Imagine if Ms Cooper,
    had opposed austerity,
    instead she could not give preference
    For Coffee or for tea.

    Imagine if the PLP
    had got behind our leader,
    instead they tried to undermine,
    And make our chances weaker.

    The appeal of our Jezz
    Was there for all to see
    and now Ms Strong and Stable
    has no majority
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,675
    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.
  • AndyJS said:

    "EU will fight to keep Northern Ireland subject to EU law after Brexit, says Guy Verhofstadt"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/02/27/eu-will-fight-keep-northern-ireland-subject-eu-law-brexit-says/

    The man is an idiot and just raising tension unnecessarily. I believe an Irish MEP has already made a formal complaint on these comments
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 788
    edited February 27
    There are two separate reasons why Sinn Fein won't take their seats at Westminster. Firstly, as republicans, and specifically Irish republicans, they object to the oath of allegiance to the British Crown. (There is no such oath at Stormont: they would not take their seats there if there was.) Secondly, as hard-line Irish nationalists they do not recognise that Westminster has any jurisdiction or right of jurisdiction over any part of the island of Ireland.

    If Britain itself became a republic, the second objection would still stand. The only scenario where I could remotely see SF taking seats at Westminster would be for the sole purpose of voting through a bill implementing a treaty to transfer Northern Ireland to the Republic. Even then, I doubt they'd take the seats unless their votes were going to be crucial for its passage, and they'd certainly require some sort of waiver of the oath too.

    In practical terms it will never happen.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,453
    edited February 27
    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.

    The UK govt could choose to have a customs border along the Irish Sea if they still want GB to remain outside the CU, but they would lose the support of the DUP if they pursued this option.

    " The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU."

    No, there are plenty of alternatives, but the EU is deliberately trying to block them.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 9,857
    Can recommend Game Night

    Very funny film

    The only downside

    It closed with this




    Which 16 hours later i am still singing much to the annoyance of Mrs BJ

    LISTEN AT YOUR PERIL
  • Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: Kubica in action at testing, and setting competitive times. Huzzah!

    My overriding memory, it must be said, of the excellent Polish driver is him failing by two-thousandths of a second to get pole in Monaco when I'd backed him at around 8 or 9. One was not amused.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,675

    Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
    True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 583

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.

    The UK govt could choose to have a customs border along the Irish Sea if they still want GB to remain outside the CU, but they would lose the support of the DUP if they pursued this option.

    " The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU."

    No, there are plenty of alternatives, but the EU is deliberately trying to block them.

    What alternatives?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.
    Who is building this border ?

    Who is paying for it ?

    Who's guard's will man the border ?

    What plans have been put in place for this to happen ?

    It's fantasy.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815
    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.

    The UK govt could choose to have a customs border along the Irish Sea if they still want GB to remain outside the CU, but they would lose the support of the DUP if they pursued this option.

    " The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU."

    No, there are plenty of alternatives, but the EU is deliberately trying to block them.

    What alternatives?
    As per now - cameras potentially.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,097
    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.
    Who is building this border ?

    Who is paying for it ?

    Who's guard's will man the border ?

    What plans have been put in place for this to happen ?

    It's fantasy.
    The comment to which you're replying doesn't suggest there will be a hard border.
  • Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
    True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
    They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,552

    I couldn't agree more. I listened to Antoinette Sandbach yesterday in a calm sensible discussion with Adam Boulton and it was refreshing to hear her view put quietly and sensibly

    The Country is served by the poorest of poor journalists and second rate politicians

    Of course. That is why the aforementioned second rate politicians refuse to budge from our failed electoral voting system. FPTP for newcomers here, aka leading candidates scoop the pool.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,097
    edited February 27

    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
    True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
    They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
    Sling 'em out! Starting with Hannan who also collaborated with UKIP.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.
    Who is building this border ?

    Who is paying for it ?

    Who's guard's will man the border ?

    What plans have been put in place for this to happen ?

    It's fantasy.
    The comment to which you're replying doesn't suggest there will be a hard border.
    There wont be a hard border in or out of a customs union.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,097
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.
    Who is building this border ?

    Who is paying for it ?

    Who's guard's will man the border ?

    What plans have been put in place for this to happen ?

    It's fantasy.
    The comment to which you're replying doesn't suggest there will be a hard border.
    There wont be a hard border in or out of a customs union.
    There won't be a hard border because the UK will capitulate to any terms necessary to avoid one.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 583
    edited February 27
    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.

    The UK govt could choose to have a customs border along the Irish Sea if they still want GB to remain outside the CU, but they would lose the support of the DUP if they pursued this option.

    " The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU."

    No, there are plenty of alternatives, but the EU is deliberately trying to block them.

    What alternatives?
    As per now - cameras potentially.

    There is merely an administrative border at present, with no customs facilities (as the UK and Eire are in the SM/CU) and no passport control (due to the common travel area). Neither will be possible post a hard Brexit. The simplest solution IMO, should a hard Brexit be pursued by the Westminster administration, and given that the 6 counties voted 55% Remain, is a united 32-county Irish republic within the EU, but the party that only understands a single 2-letter word (NO) would fight tooth-and-nail against such a solution.

    However, I now expect BINO.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,815

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.
    Who is building this border ?

    Who is paying for it ?

    Who's guard's will man the border ?

    What plans have been put in place for this to happen ?

    It's fantasy.
    The comment to which you're replying doesn't suggest there will be a hard border.
    There wont be a hard border in or out of a customs union.
    There won't be a hard border because the UK will capitulate to any terms necessary to avoid one.
    There won't be one because neither side wants one.
  • Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
    And I am sure they considered how it would go down with their constituency association and their electorate.

    I fall between two stools on this. I do not believe it is right for a party to punish MPs for voting with their consciences. I do believe MPs should consider whether or not their electorate would be happy. But it is for them to decide if that risk is worth it

    Even though I disagree with them May should not be allowed to punish MPs who vote against her.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. Dao, that does seem likely.

    The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.

    Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.

    I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. Tyndall, what if an MP votes against their manifesto?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 19,974

    Mr. Tyndall, what if an MP votes against their manifesto?

    I know you didn't ask me, but that should be allowable. Manifestos usually cover a subject in one or two lines, and it is perfectly possible for an MP to find details int he actual legislation that (s)he finds objectionable and worth voting against, or amending.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,675

    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
    True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
    They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
    That would be John Major.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,547
    edited February 27
    I tend to agree with Nabavi that the Irish border problem is fake news, of a kind.

    As he says, there are already VAT differentials on some goods, but both sides still allow free travel without needing cars to queue up for inspection.

    Conceptually, what’s the difference in the case of differently-tariffed goods? Certainly a customs union (or arrangement) makes life a lot easier because it avoids (much of) the problem altogether, but isn’t this just about how both parties want to police and control?
  • Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
    True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
    They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
    Sling 'em out! Starting with Hannan who also collaborated with UKIP.
    I'm so glad Mrs May stopped Dan Hannan becoming an MP last year.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,097

    I tend to agree with Nabavi that the Irish border problem is fake news, of a kind.

    As he says, there are already VAT differentials on some goods, but both sides still allow free travel without needing cars to queue up for inspection.

    Conceptually, what’s the difference in the case of differently-tariffed goods? Certainly a customs union (or arrangement) makes life a lot easier because it avoids (much of) the problem altogether, but isn’t this just about how both parties want to police and control?

    Neither party wants to police and control it. That's why it matters that they have a legal and institutional structure that enables that to remain a practical reality.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,547

    I tend to agree with Nabavi that the Irish border problem is fake news, of a kind.

    As he says, there are already VAT differentials on some goods, but both sides still allow free travel without needing cars to queue up for inspection.

    Conceptually, what’s the difference in the case of differently-tariffed goods? Certainly a customs union (or arrangement) makes life a lot easier because it avoids (much of) the problem altogether, but isn’t this just about how both parties want to police and control?

    Neither party wants to police and control it. That's why it matters that they have a legal and institutional structure that enables that to remain a practical reality.
    I hate to quarrel with a fellow-Remainer, but you haven’t answered my question.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,154

    Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
    And I am sure they considered how it would go down with their constituency association and their electorate.

    I fall between two stools on this. I do not believe it is right for a party to punish MPs for voting with their consciences. I do believe MPs should consider whether or not their electorate would be happy. But it is for them to decide if that risk is worth it

    Even though I disagree with them May should not be allowed to punish MPs who vote against her.
    What do you mean by punish?
    It seems perfectly reasonable for the PM to fire someone as their Minister/from the government if they won't vote for government policy.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 4,316
    edited February 27
    This new?
    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/um02uga2au/TimesResults_180220_VI_Trackers.pdf
    Con 40% (+0)
    Lab 42% (+1)
    LD 8% (+0)

    Wrong to leave 45% (-1), right 42% (+0)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    F1: testing times shouldn't be taken seriously.

    Which is lucky for Williams, because Kubica (their reserve driver) has been faster than their two race drivers so far...
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,869

    Mr. Dao, that does seem likely.

    The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.

    Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.

    I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.

    Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,097

    I tend to agree with Nabavi that the Irish border problem is fake news, of a kind.

    As he says, there are already VAT differentials on some goods, but both sides still allow free travel without needing cars to queue up for inspection.

    Conceptually, what’s the difference in the case of differently-tariffed goods? Certainly a customs union (or arrangement) makes life a lot easier because it avoids (much of) the problem altogether, but isn’t this just about how both parties want to police and control?

    Neither party wants to police and control it. That's why it matters that they have a legal and institutional structure that enables that to remain a practical reality.
    I hate to quarrel with a fellow-Remainer, but you haven’t answered my question.
    Because it is a much broader question of legal jurisdiction, not just a matter of admin on a few tariffs.

    This is a good article on some of the issues.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1104/917420-brexit/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. Song, that wasn't the reason I voted the way I did, and wasn't the terms. We voted to leave the EU. If the proposed model is the Turkish one (for customs) that puts us in a position worse than we have in the EU and worse than we have outside it (properly outside it).

    To leave the EU and then have it responsible for our customs is to treat the decision to leave with contempt. As I mentioned to Mr. Eagles, the customs union was the only firm red line I had in mind, being comfortable with a pretty broad spectrum of potential departures. Leaving the EU and staying in a customs union, treating the voters with the same contempt and deception as happened over Lisbon and reneging upon the manifesto commitment to a referendum, would be utterly wretched.

    Now, if the proposal were a temporary one for the transition period, that would be another matter. But Comrade Corbyn's cunning plan is for a permanent one.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,634

    Mr. Dao, that does seem likely.

    The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.

    Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.

    I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.

    Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
    and your source for this egotistical piece of whimsy is?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,825

    Mr. Dao, that does seem likely.

    The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.

    Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.

    I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.

    Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
    I suspect it was based on stronger views, information, feelings and emotions than that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,848
    edited February 27

    F1: testing times shouldn't be taken seriously.

    Which is lucky for Williams, because Kubica (their reserve driver) has been faster than their two race drivers so far...

    Forget the times, Mr.D - what do you make of the cars ?

    The Red Bulls look to me as though they might be a great deal more competitive than last year - and the Ferrari looks extremely well developed for the beginning of the season...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,490

    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
    True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
    They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
    Sling 'em out! Starting with Hannan who also collaborated with UKIP.
    There would not be much left of the Conservative Party if you removed the eurosceptics.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,634

    I tend to agree with Nabavi that the Irish border problem is fake news, of a kind.

    As he says, there are already VAT differentials on some goods, but both sides still allow free travel without needing cars to queue up for inspection.

    Conceptually, what’s the difference in the case of differently-tariffed goods? Certainly a customs union (or arrangement) makes life a lot easier because it avoids (much of) the problem altogether, but isn’t this just about how both parties want to police and control?

    Neither party wants to police and control it. That's why it matters that they have a legal and institutional structure that enables that to remain a practical reality.
    I hate to quarrel with a fellow-Remainer, but you haven’t answered my question.
    Because it is a much broader question of legal jurisdiction, not just a matter of admin on a few tariffs.

    This is a good article on some of the issues.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1104/917420-brexit/
    This always strikes me as a "tail wagging the dog" kind of issue although I do appreciate that there are political implications. But even there I keep asking myself whether the DUP will ever do anything that might smack of support for Corbyn.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. B, unfortunately, my technical knowledge is not fantastic. Mood music can be useful but it's a bit early for that.

    If the Red Bulls are competitive then that must mean the Renault (engine) is good enough, which could also put Alonso in the frame. However, I saw on the livefeed that part of the McLaren bodywork was a bit scorched due to overheating, so they'll need to sort that.

    Mercedes sticking with the long wheelbase might put them in trouble on the twisty tracks. Ferrari could either hit the sweet spot by shortening theirs, or bugger themselves by being behind Mercedes on fast tracks and Red Bull on the streets.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,841

    Mr. Song, that wasn't the reason I voted the way I did, and wasn't the terms. We voted to leave the EU. If the proposed model is the Turkish one (for customs) that puts us in a position worse than we have in the EU and worse than we have outside it (properly outside it).

    To leave the EU and then have it responsible for our customs is to treat the decision to leave with contempt. As I mentioned to Mr. Eagles, the customs union was the only firm red line I had in mind, being comfortable with a pretty broad spectrum of potential departures. Leaving the EU and staying in a customs union, treating the voters with the same contempt and deception as happened over Lisbon and reneging upon the manifesto commitment to a referendum, would be utterly wretched.

    Now, if the proposal were a temporary one for the transition period, that would be another matter. But Comrade Corbyn's cunning plan is for a permanent one.

    Do you have any evidence that, for most Leave voters, their decision was based on customs and trade, rather than on immigration and money (neither of which are affected by the Customs Union)?
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,106


    To leave the EU and then have it responsible for our customs is to treat the decision to leave with contempt.

    There is no evidence that at the time of the vote, a majority of Leave voters thought leaving the EU meant leaving the Customs Union.



  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. 565, my post was about my own reasons for voting and why the customs union is a red line for me. It being my opinion is self-evident :p

    I never claimed to speak for Leave, or Leave voters other than myself.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 19,097

    I tend to agree with Nabavi that the Irish border problem is fake news, of a kind.

    As he says, there are already VAT differentials on some goods, but both sides still allow free travel without needing cars to queue up for inspection.

    Conceptually, what’s the difference in the case of differently-tariffed goods? Certainly a customs union (or arrangement) makes life a lot easier because it avoids (much of) the problem altogether, but isn’t this just about how both parties want to police and control?

    Neither party wants to police and control it. That's why it matters that they have a legal and institutional structure that enables that to remain a practical reality.
    I hate to quarrel with a fellow-Remainer, but you haven’t answered my question.
    Because it is a much broader question of legal jurisdiction, not just a matter of admin on a few tariffs.

    This is a good article on some of the issues.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1104/917420-brexit/
    This always strikes me as a "tail wagging the dog" kind of issue although I do appreciate that there are political implications. But even there I keep asking myself whether the DUP will ever do anything that might smack of support for Corbyn.
    May can play Corbyn off against the DUP and the DUP off against the hard Brexiteers until Brexit is reduced to nothing.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,634
    edited February 27
    Danny565 said:

    Mr. Song, that wasn't the reason I voted the way I did, and wasn't the terms. We voted to leave the EU. If the proposed model is the Turkish one (for customs) that puts us in a position worse than we have in the EU and worse than we have outside it (properly outside it).

    To leave the EU and then have it responsible for our customs is to treat the decision to leave with contempt. As I mentioned to Mr. Eagles, the customs union was the only firm red line I had in mind, being comfortable with a pretty broad spectrum of potential departures. Leaving the EU and staying in a customs union, treating the voters with the same contempt and deception as happened over Lisbon and reneging upon the manifesto commitment to a referendum, would be utterly wretched.

    Now, if the proposal were a temporary one for the transition period, that would be another matter. But Comrade Corbyn's cunning plan is for a permanent one.

    Do you have any evidence that, for most Leave voters, their decision was based on customs and trade, rather than on immigration and money (neither of which are affected by the Customs Union)?
    We do seem to be overloading on mind readers today! Asking for evidence on one assertion whilst blithely offering another unevidenced proposition
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,241
    JonathanD said:


    To leave the EU and then have it responsible for our customs is to treat the decision to leave with contempt.

    There is no evidence that at the time of the vote, a majority of Leave voters thought leaving the EU meant leaving the Customs Union.



    At the time of the vote, the majority of voter had not even heard of the Customs Union!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. D, that tweet relates to the single market...
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 2,634

    I tend to agree with Nabavi that the Irish border problem is fake news, of a kind.

    As he says, there are already VAT differentials on some goods, but both sides still allow free travel without needing cars to queue up for inspection.

    Conceptually, what’s the difference in the case of differently-tariffed goods? Certainly a customs union (or arrangement) makes life a lot easier because it avoids (much of) the problem altogether, but isn’t this just about how both parties want to police and control?

    Neither party wants to police and control it. That's why it matters that they have a legal and institutional structure that enables that to remain a practical reality.
    I hate to quarrel with a fellow-Remainer, but you haven’t answered my question.
    Because it is a much broader question of legal jurisdiction, not just a matter of admin on a few tariffs.

    This is a good article on some of the issues.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1104/917420-brexit/
    This always strikes me as a "tail wagging the dog" kind of issue although I do appreciate that there are political implications. But even there I keep asking myself whether the DUP will ever do anything that might smack of support for Corbyn.
    May can play Corbyn off against the DUP and the DUP off against the hard Brexiteers until Brexit is reduced to nothing.
    You love your little jokes don't you
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 6,841

    Mr. 565, my post was about my own reasons for voting and why the customs union is a red line for me. It being my opinion is self-evident :p

    I never claimed to speak for Leave, or Leave voters other than myself.

    Sorry, but you were (implicitly) claiming to be speaking for Leave voters... you said that, if your own preferred Brexit wasn't followed, then it would be treating Leave voters as a whole with contempt.

    You and the other 'libertarian' Brexiteers on here (Philip Thompson, Richard Tyndall), who think Brexit should be all about free trade deals, are perfectly entitled to your own views on what Brexit would be best, but your own personal views are not automatically the only democratic option. If you're going to claim that it is, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for some evidence to support that that's what Leave voters as a whole want - since all the evidence I'm aware of has shown trade deals was the main motivation for only a tiny minority of Leave voters.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 5,869
    philiph said:

    Mr. Dao, that does seem likely.

    The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.

    Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.

    I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.

    Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
    I suspect it was based on stronger views, information, feelings and emotions than that.
    I was referring to the overall electorate which split very evenly.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    Mr. 565, that's a fair qualification.

    Voting to leave the EU then having the EU responsible for our customs, particularly on the disadvantageous Turkish model, would be wretched. If you can find polling whereby people approve of us having no control and the EU dictating our customs, and third party countries getting preferential trade with us but the UK not benefiting on a reciprocal basis, then fair enough.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,620

    Mr. Dao, that does seem likely.

    The chattering classes will gleefully rejoice. The electorate's decision will be treated with contempt. And the poisonous political atmosphere will become much worse.

    Such a situation would be similar to Lisbon, and the reneging of manifesto pledges for a referendum. Only much more severe.

    I fear a terrible mistake is about to made with profound consequences for the health of our body politic. Perhaps I'm wrong. But my suggestion of how we might leave in name only, or have a terrible deal deliberately negotiated to facilitate a second referendum, is looking reasonably prescient.

    Th 'electorate's decision' was a sort of 'suppose on balance we should Leave assuming there won't be any problems and we get the £350million/week'.
    Thats funny - Danny jumped on one poster for claiming to speak for all leavers (he wasn't) but he ignores you explicitly telling us what the electorate decided.

    How to explain this difference?
  • Scott_P said:
    Anyone want to start a book on how many he will go through even prior to being selected or not as the Rep nominee?

    I'll opening the bidding at 5.
  • A thought although unlikely.

    Sinn Fein recognises that a hard border would be bad for Ireland.
    Sinn Fein do not take seats at Westminster and never will.
    Sinn Fein recognises that the circumstances are unique.

    All Sinn Fein Westminster MPs resign asking their supporters to vote SDLP in the ensuing by-elections. Sinn Fein will re-stand at the next Westminster GE.

    SDLP 2017 manifesto said "Only the SDLP can fight a hard Brexit and a hard border after this election."

    Now assume there are 7 SDLP MPs at Westminster.

    Not going to happen is it. Is it?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,620

    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
    True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
    They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
    Didn't the poll tax and sleaze have anything to do with the Tories being kicked out?

    Ps - I thought the tory "leavers" were headbangers in the 90's - now it seems a lot of what they said is actually coming to pass.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 5,848

    Mr. B, unfortunately, my technical knowledge is not fantastic. Mood music can be useful but it's a bit early for that.

    If the Red Bulls are competitive then that must mean the Renault (engine) is good enough, which could also put Alonso in the frame. However, I saw on the livefeed that part of the McLaren bodywork was a bit scorched due to overheating, so they'll need to sort that.

    Mercedes sticking with the long wheelbase might put them in trouble on the twisty tracks. Ferrari could either hit the sweet spot by shortening theirs, or bugger themselves by being behind Mercedes on fast tracks and Red Bull on the streets.

    I believe the Ferrari wheelbase is slightly longer this year ?

    Looking at the detail on the car, they seem to have concentrated on retaining the characteristics of last year's while reducing drag. I think they ought to be right up there with Mercedes - but what interests me if whether Red Bull consistently challenge for wins, or are merely a consistent number three.
  • Floater said:

    Essexit said:

    Essexit said:

    Any Tory MP contemplating walking through the division lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and Sinn Fein in order to break a manifesto commitment might want to consider how this will go down with their constituency association.

    Tory MPs in 1992/93 broke a manifesto commitment and voted with Jeremy Corbyn on a regular basis.
    True, but in that instance I doubt the constituency associations minded too much.
    They were traitors who helped enable thirteen years of a Labour government.
    Didn't the poll tax and sleaze have anything to do with the Tories being kicked out?

    Ps - I thought the tory "leavers" were headbangers in the 90's - now it seems a lot of what they said is actually coming to pass.
    The Tories won a majority after the poll tax.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,189
    edited February 27
    Mr. B, yes, that's the case. They want to be faster on the, er, faster tracks, but without sacrificing their street circuit pace. They might hit the sweet spot, or be jack of all tracks and master of none.

    Edited extra bit: F1: currently snowing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,799

    JonathanD said:


    To leave the EU and then have it responsible for our customs is to treat the decision to leave with contempt.

    There is no evidence that at the time of the vote, a majority of Leave voters thought leaving the EU meant leaving the Customs Union.



    At the time of the vote, the majority of voter had not even heard of the Customs Union!
    At the time of the vote, the majority of Leave voters didn't expect to win.....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 44,329
    edited February 27

    A thought although unlikely.

    Sinn Fein recognises that a hard border would be bad for Ireland.
    Sinn Fein do not take seats at Westminster and never will.
    Sinn Fein recognises that the circumstances are unique.

    All Sinn Fein Westminster MPs resign asking their supporters to vote SDLP in the ensuing by-elections. Sinn Fein will re-stand at the next Westminster GE.

    SDLP 2017 manifesto said "Only the SDLP can fight a hard Brexit and a hard border after this election."

    Now assume there are 7 SDLP MPs at Westminster.

    Not going to happen is it. Is it?

    Odds against..

    The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one.....
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 788
    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    daodao said:

    stevef said:

    It would be a gift to the Tories who could claim that everything they had said about Corbyn and Sinn Fein was true. Labour leavers would flock to the Tories in the inevitable general election and Labour would be crushed.

    Bring it on Sinn Fein, Bring it on.

    It would be better for SF if the Customs Union is rejected by Westminster and there are then problems on the border between the 26 and 6 counties post Brexit. The resulting discontent north of the border might sway sentiment there towards Irish re-unification, which is their long-term aim. They aren't likely to heed advice from the political descendants of Michael Collins.
    Wait - so future problems on the border due to the EU's mythical magical hard border manned by the EU army would persuade the people of Ulster that the solution is to sign up to the Euro and the EU ?

    It's a view.
    The problems would due to the UK govt choosing a hard Brexit; it would not be the EU's fault. The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU.

    The UK govt could choose to have a customs border along the Irish Sea if they still want GB to remain outside the CU, but they would lose the support of the DUP if they pursued this option.

    " The only way for there not to be a hard border across Ulster is for the 6 counties to remain in the CU."

    No, there are plenty of alternatives, but the EU is deliberately trying to block them.

    What alternatives?
    As per now - cameras potentially.

    There is merely an administrative border at present, with no customs facilities (as the UK and Eire are in the SM/CU) and no passport control (due to the common travel area). Neither will be possible post a hard Brexit.
    Why would maintaining the CTA not be possible post- hard Brexit? There was a customs border in Ireland for most of the CTA's history, and at times it was quite rigorously enforced. Or are we back to needing to stop Polish plumbers from sneaking back into Great Britain through Northern Ireland?
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