Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.
What a bag of bollocks.
I have today been simultaneously in text conversations with California and Australia without leaving my sofa. In a few weeks I will immensely enjoy the IPL live from India. The language unifies all of that across time zones instantly now, even before Elon Musk or whoever can get us to the Barrier Reef for a quick winter break in a couple of hours in the future.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...
The point is I can tell them in nuance if they dont know, because my cultural Venn diagram overlaps theirs far more than it does a Bulgarian, or a Finn (heresy for you?). In reality in my experience most Californians without guidance struggle to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.
To use my Irish analogy, though I’m sure Collins and De Valera from about 1920 wouldn’t be happy about the 26/6 split continuing a century on, the developments and position of the 26 would probably amaze them, in a positive way. At least politically and economically ( no idea how the relative fall of Catholicism would play - but that’s a sideshow to this).
The point is they (the Irish) gained the power to act when they could, if they wanted. It might take us 40/50 years to unwind matters fully. If we want. The point is it will be our choice.
Ireland gained sovereignty when it became independent, and gained power when it pooled that sovereignty.
If they weren’t independent in the first place with 4.7 million in a U.K. of about 70 million they’d have as much clout as London south of the river, and Varadkar would be an obscure minister in a coalition government.
Proving that the EU is a better model for integration between nations than the UK.
I have literally no idea how you draw that conclusion, and I’m not going to bother wasting my time trying.
Because in the EU Varadkar has clout, but in the UK you think he'd be an "obscure minister in a coalition government".
David Cameron did not have any clout so why would Varadkar. He's useful to the EU at the moment but when Brexit's done he'll be a PM of just another little member state.
And forced to pay the 13 billion Apple tax and then agree to EU tax harmonisation
Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...
The point is I can tell them in nuance if they dont know, because my cultural Venn diagram overlaps theirs far more than it does a Bulgarian, or a Finn (heresy for you?). In reality in my experience most Californians without guidance struggle to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.
The is an illusion created by a common language in my view.
Think of it this way: Do you think someone from Portugal has more in common with a Spaniard or a Brazilian? I think most people would say a Spaniard. Why do you think the answer is different for us?
I’m not Brazilian or Portuguese so I haven’t the faintest. I know how I feel. And I feel massively more at home in Melbourne than I do in Marseille- and I speak French and have lived there.
How at home do you feel in Finsbury?
This is fascinating. I would say we in the UK have most in common with: 1) the ROI 2) NZ 3) Aus 4) Canada 5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark 6) USA 7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd 8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.
Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...
The point is I can tell them in nuance if they dont know, because my cultural Venn diagram overlaps theirs far more than it does a Bulgarian, or a Finn (heresy for you?). In reality in my experience most Californians without guidance struggle to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.
The is an illusion created by a common language in my view.
Think of it this way: Do you think someone from Portugal has more in common with a Spaniard or a Brazilian? I think most people would say a Spaniard. Why do you think the answer is different for us?
I’m not Brazilian or Portuguese so I haven’t the faintest. I know how I feel. And I feel massively more at home in Melbourne than I do in Marseille- and I speak French and have lived there.
How at home do you feel in Finsbury?
This is fascinating. I would say we in the UK have most in common with: 1) the ROI 2) NZ 3) Aus 4) Canada 5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark 6) USA 7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd 8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.
The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.
The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.
Maybe, but there's still Faisal Islam to come on Sky News at 10pm. By then he'll have found no end of folk who think the speech was hopeless and Brexit will be a disaster.
The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.
Interesting that it has been announced that a joint UK - EU - ROI Committee are to explore solutions for the Irish border
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.
I don't think so, I think May is not very good but as far as reaching a deal is concerned she is "boiling the frog". Arch-Remainers and Arch-Leavers started in very mutually exclusive positions and while ultimately there will be many refuseniks who end up unhappy (Soubry/Meeks/Farage etc) slowly but surely the moderates of the two sides are edging towards accepting compromises.
This is fascinating. I would say we in the UK have most in common with: 1) the ROI 2) NZ 3) Aus 4) Canada 5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark 6) USA 7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd 8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.
Dixie dean:
I would tend to agree. Haven't been to NZ so wouldn't know. Wrt Canada and USA depends where you go. Vancouver, Toronto, New York feel familiar, back woods Louisiana or Moose Factory not to mention rural Quebec less so.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
Oh come off it Justin. This line is just plain pathetic.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
Oh come off it Justin. This line is just plain pathetic.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
It has generally been recognised as a good speech - Corbyn is hopeless and he will be found out
The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.
I don't think so, I think May is not very good but as far as reaching a deal is concerned she is "boiling the frog". Arch-Remainers and Arch-Leavers started in very mutually exclusive positions and while ultimately there will be many refuseniks who end up unhappy (Soubry/Meeks/Farage etc) slowly but surely the moderates of the two sides are edging towards accepting compromises.
I think you are right, and I console myself (as an unrepentant Remainer) with the thought that May does at least seem committed to avoiding a 'no deal' crash.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.
I don't think so, I think May is not very good but as far as reaching a deal is concerned she is "boiling the frog". Arch-Remainers and Arch-Leavers started in very mutually exclusive positions and while ultimately there will be many refuseniks who end up unhappy (Soubry/Meeks/Farage etc) slowly but surely the moderates of the two sides are edging towards accepting compromises.
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
It has generally been recognised as a good speech - Corbyn is hopeless and he will be found out
Reminds me of this time last year. Wonder if May fancies another snap election.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography! She was never employed by the Bank as an economist.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography!
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography!
There is quite a lot of economics in Geography - and Corbyn didn't even get that far.
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
It has generally been recognised as a good speech - Corbyn is hopeless and he will be found out
Reminds me of this time last year. Wonder if May fancies another snap election.
No - she has a job to do to get the deal that satisfies those of us in the middle who reject both the ultra remainers and ultra leavers
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
I don't feel very different from either Australians or Canadians.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography!
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.
@Cookie I agree with all of that ( yes 5-8 are tricky!). Yes language is vital. Our day to day popular culture is far more Kylie and Beyoncé than Halliday and whoever else ( I literally cannot think of another European example quickly!!). We can communicate in nuance, joke, emote, not just get a meaning over. Barnier, Juncker, and Tusk just come over as more distant to us than let’s say Bill Clinton, or J Trudeau or Malcolm Turnbull. Can’t be helped, doesn’t make them bad in any way per se, it just is.
I have a theory that English is in a pretty odd linguistic position in that there is nothing with which it is vaguely mutually intelligible to any degree, a situation just about alone amongst the major European languages. German/Dutch, Italian/ Spanish/Portuguese, the Scandinavians, Polish/Czech etc etc. Continentals are aurally used to blurred linguistic lines, we are just totally not.
And I have a language degree and have lived on the continent.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography!
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.
No, she was a financial consultant on global matters.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography!
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
I don't feel very different from either Australians or Canadians.
You don't think being a much older country makes a difference?
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography!
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.
She's a sleeper agent with a long-term mission to get us into the Euro.
Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...
The point is I can tell them
The is an illusion created by a common language in my view.
Think of it this way: Do you think someone from Portugal has more in common with a Spaniard or a Brazilian? I think most people would say a Spaniard. Why do you think the answer is different for us?
I’m not Brazilian or Portuguese so I haven’t the faintest. I know how I feel. And I feel massively more at home in Melbourne than I do in Marseille- and I speak French and have lived there.
How at home do you feel in Finsbury?
This is fascinating. I would say we in the UK have most in common with: 1) the ROI 2) NZ 3) Aus 4) Canada 5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark 6) USA 7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd 8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.
It may well reflect where I have been, and lived, but I would go for this order:
Australia NZ Netherlands Scandinavia Canada Germany, Austria Italy, Spain, Portugal, France Rest of Europe West Indies South Africa Rest of Anglophone Africa Latin America USA India Japan and Korea China SEAsia
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography!
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.
She's a sleeper agent with a long-term mission to get us into the Euro.
That's a shame. I was hoping Rees-Mogg would throw a wobbly and thus confirm that the government was finally on the right track. But his blessing sounds a touch sniffy, so he's probably harbouring doubts and we can crush him later (there's no rush).
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
I don't feel very different from either Australians or Canadians.
You don't think being a much older country makes a difference?
Not that much no. I've lived in the UK and in Australia and have family in Canada. I think the difference between the UK and Australia other than the weather is minute. You'd find a bigger difference between London and Cumbria or Sydney and the Outback than you would between London and and Sydney.
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
I am closer to the Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians than Europeans , not least as I have visited all those Countries several times and my eldest son emigrated to NZ 14 years ago and is now married to a Canadian and living in Vancouver.
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography!
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.
'Payment Clearing Services' sounds pretty administrative to me.
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography!
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.
'Payment Clearing Services' sounds pretty administrative to me.
Yeah, they need nothing but administrative staff. Even their consultants are just administrative staff!
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
We are Europeans by geography. Other than that I'm failing to see a link.
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
I am not a European and neither is my wife or family
We identify as British being part Welsh, part English, my wife Scots, and my children and grandchildren all Welsh
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography! She was never employed by the Bank as an economist.
I have no idea what she did for them, but I don't really know that what people studied at university is particularly relevant. I've known investment managers who studied history and lawyers who don't have law degrees, it didn't prevent them from acting in a specialised and technical way in fields they did not originally study.
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
Our inability to bat for any length of time on a hard bouncy wicket.
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
Our inability to bat for any length of time on a hard bouncy wicket.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography! She was never employed by the Bank as an economist.
I have no idea what she did for them, but I don't really know that what people studied at university is particularly relevant. I've known investment managers who studied history and lawyers who don't have law degrees, it didn't prevent them from acting in a specialised and technical way in fields they did not originally study.
Justin seems to think she was a glorified tea lady.
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.
Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.
What a bag of bollocks.
I have today been simultaneously in text conversations with California and Australia without leaving my sofa. In a few weeks I will immensely enjoy the IPL live from India. The language unifies all of that across time zones instantly now, even before Elon Musk or whoever can get us to the Barrier Reef for a quick winter break in a couple of hours in the future.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
You hope, I thought I would be home many hours ago but am stuck in a hotel in Prague. Plenty could restrict you having option of going to France.
It never lasts with fanatics, no matter the kind. Trouble will flare up again, but it'd be nice to think it will hold off for long enough that some progress can be achieved in the meantime.
Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.
What a bag of bollocks.
I have today been simultaneously in text conversations with California and Australia without leaving my sofa. In a few weeks I will immensely enjoy the IPL live from India. The language unifies all of that across time zones instantly now, even before Elon Musk or whoever can get us to the Barrier Reef for a quick winter break in a couple of hours in the future.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
You hope, I thought I would be home many hours ago but am stuck in a hotel in Prague. Plenty could restrict you having option of going to France.
Try the excellent Czech beer. That’s European cultural excellence for sure.
It never lasts with fanatics, no matter the kind. Trouble will flare up again, but it'd be nice to think it will hold off for long enough that some progress can be achieved in the meantime.
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.
My take on May's speech. We are now seeing intimations of reality, if not the actual reality. These proposed solutions are still not realistic but we can see where the compromises will be made. Probably it was OK. Mrs May can't stand up and say, Brexit is waste of time, money and potential, we're stuck with this mess, so I am completely focused on damage limitation. Single Market and Customs Union , right now. The collapse would be total. She can't say it.
Yet.
You still think the UK will be in the Single Market after it is all wrapped up?
In balance yes. That would be the logical end result of the compromises implied by May's speech. Key quote for me:
"We will not accept the rights of Canada and the obligations of Norway."
Point is, if you have the obligations of Norway, to resolve most of the issues, you can have the rights of Norway too. It won't be the EEA, but something broadly similar.
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
Very little if anything at all. I feel no different to Canadians or Australians than I do from Cornish or Brummies.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography!
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.
sounds bollox made up title for an administrator in public sector.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She worked for the Bank of England!
But she studied Geography! She was never employed by the Bank as an economist.
I have no idea what she did for them, but I don't really know that what people studied at university is particularly relevant. I've known investment managers who studied history and lawyers who don't have law degrees, it didn't prevent them from acting in a specialised and technical way in fields they did not originally study.
Indeed so - but a non-Law graduate has to undertake a Graduate Diploma in Law followed by the relevant examinations for the Law Society or the Bar.
Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.
What a bag of bollocks.
I have today been simultaneously in text conversations with California and Australia without leaving my sofa. In a few weeks I will immensely enjoy the IPL live from India. The language unifies all of that across time zones instantly now, even before Elon Musk or whoever can get us to the Barrier Reef for a quick winter break in a couple of hours in the future.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
You hope, I thought I would be home many hours ago but am stuck in a hotel in Prague. Plenty could restrict you having option of going to France.
Try the excellent Czech beer. That’s European cultural excellence for sure.
I have been over sampling all week, it is indeed excellent.
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.
Not to mention all those bridges on the Euro notes.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
Australians and New Zealanders are probably closer to us than any other country.
Over 60% of them are of direct British descent, over only 3-4 generations.
I haven't heard anything seriously critical of the speech. Except that it should have been made a year ago.
Indeed -usual doom and gloom from those who don’t want good news on Brexit.
What I don't want is pathetic platitudes and Unionist nonsense from the Prime Minister. I want a clear, concise and realistic plan of what the Government wants and expects. I want to know about immigration and I want to know where our so-called "red lines" are.
I'm tired of Theresa May trying to be all things to all people.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....
Home office job became a lot easier after justice was spun out as a separate thing.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....
however she just hid for 5 years and made no decisions whatsoever so hardly encouraging.
Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...
The point is I can tell them in nuance if they dont know, because my cultural Venn diagram overlaps theirs far more than it does a Bulgarian, or a Finn (heresy for you?). In reality in my experience most Californians without guidance struggle to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.
The is an illusion created by a common language in my view.
Think of it this way: Do you think someone from Portugal has more in common with a Spaniard or a Brazilian? I think most people would say a Spaniard. Why do you think the answer is different for us?
I’m not Brazilian or Portuguese so I haven’t the faintest. I know how I feel. And I feel massively more at home in Melbourne than I do in Marseille- and I speak French and have lived there.
How at home do you feel in Finsbury?
This is fascinating. I would say we in the UK have most in common with: 1) the ROI 2) NZ 3) Aus 4) Canada 5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark 6) USA 7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd 8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
There is no case, other than your assertions, which you think we'll all come round to if you repeat them confidently and often enough.
And your assertions are based on your fanaticism, nothing more.
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
Very little if anything at all. I feel no different to Canadians or Australians than I do from Cornish or Brummies.
A lot depends on social millieu. I am pretty comfortable with Doctors from any country, as part of an international fraternity with common language, education, ethics and place in society. I am also at home with Non-Conformist Protestants from wherever, for similar reasons. I have less in common with some of my countrymen, such as fox hunters, drug-dealers or the aristocracy.
It appears that the PM has really rattled lefty Remainers judging by the childish comments they are making about her on here tonight. No serious critique of her speech, just puerile insults.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....
however she just hid for 5 years and made no decisions whatsoever so hardly encouraging.
Not getting fired from being Home Secretary is still way, way better than her Labour predecessors could manage....
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.
We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at, and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?
Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...
The point is I can tell them in nuance if they dont know, because my cultural Venn diagram overlaps theirs far more than it does a Bulgarian, or a Finn (heresy for you?). In reality in my experience most Californians without guidance struggle to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.
The is an illusion created by a common language in my view.
Think of it this way: Do you think someone from Portugal has more in common with a Spaniard or a Brazilian? I think most people would say a Spaniard. Why do you think the answer is different for us?
I’m not Brazilian or Portuguese so I haven’t the faintest. I know how I feel. And I feel massively more at home in Melbourne than I do in Marseille- and I speak French and have lived there.
How at home do you feel in Finsbury?
This is fascinating. I would say we in the UK have most in common with: 1) the ROI 2) NZ 3) Aus 4) Canada 5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark 6) USA 7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd 8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have ot a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.
I'd agree with that listing.
Amazing how people are different . Once you overcome language barrier Western Europe is very similar. More variation inside countries than between them.
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....
however she just hid for 5 years and made no decisions whatsoever so hardly encouraging.
Not getting fired from being Home Secretary is still way, way better than her Labour predecessors could manage....
How did she get on with non-EU migration? last year +205 000.
Its almost as if her public pronouncements are not carried through
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
Very little if anything at all. I feel no different to Canadians or Australians than I do from Cornish or Brummies.
A lot depends on social millieu. I am pretty comfortable with Doctors from any country, as part of an international fraternity with common language, education, ethics and place in society. I am also at home with Non-Conformist Protestants from wherever, for similar reasons. I have less in common with some of my countrymen, such as fox hunters, drug-dealers or the aristocracy.
I'm intrigued. Is your order of decreasing preference fox hunters > drug-dealers > aristocracy or vice versa?
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
Very little if anything at all. I feel no different to Canadians or Australians than I do from Cornish or Brummies.
A lot depends on social millieu. I am pretty comfortable with Doctors from any country, as part of an international fraternity with common language, education, ethics and place in society. I am also at home with Non-Conformist Protestants from wherever, for similar reasons. I have less in common with some of my countrymen, such as fox hunters, drug-dealers or the aristocracy.
I'm intrigued. Is your order of decreasing preference fox hunters > drug-dealers > aristocracy or vice versa?
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.
We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at, and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?
Totally. Personally I think we are a mix, but I never thought the EU understood the links we have to the non European world. We always seemed to be having to make an either or choice, when the reality is we are a bit of both, though in terms of popular culture it’s a no contest. We are part of the Anglosphere. Football excepted.
I haven't heard anything seriously critical of the speech. Except that it should have been made a year ago.
Indeed -usual doom and gloom from those who don’t want good news on Brexit.
What I don't want is pathetic platitudes and Unionist nonsense from the Prime Minister. I want a clear, concise and realistic plan of what the Government wants and expects. I want to know about immigration and I want to know where our so-called "red lines" are.
I'm tired of Theresa May trying to be all things to all people.
It appears that the PM has really rattled lefty Remainers judging by the childish comments they are making about her on here tonight. No serious critique of her speech, just puerile insults.
Well - I voted Leave and have no regrets at having done so!
Would anyone be interested in seeing a spreadsheet featuring the constituencies which have most accurately mirrored the national swing over the last three elections?
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.
We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at, and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?
Totally. Personally I think we are a mix, but I never thought the EU understood the links we have to the non European world. We always seemed to be having to make an either or choice, when the reality is we are a bit of both, though in terms of popular culture it’s a no contest. We are part of the Anglosphere.
There was never any compulsion to make an either or choice.
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
You must be a troll - there is no other logical explanaton
Would anyone be interested in seeing a spreadsheet featuring the constituencies which have most accurately mirrored the national swing over the last three elections?
Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
He looks completely out of his depth
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulate
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....
however she just hid for 5 years and made no decisions whatsoever so hardly encouraging.
Not getting fired from being Home Secretary is still way, way better than her Labour predecessors could manage....
Would anyone be interested in seeing a spreadsheet featuring the constituencies which have most accurately mirrored the national swing over the last three elections?
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.
We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at, and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?
The UK has always had one foot inside Europe, and one foot out. Always has, always will. So black and white arguments either which way don't work.
But, that in-and-of-itself is sufficient to explain why a federal Europe (obviously) wasn't for us.
Comments
I would say we in the UK have most in common with:
1) the ROI
2) NZ
3) Aus
4) Canada
5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark
6) USA
7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd
8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.
This is fascinating.
I would say we in the UK have most in common with:
1) the ROI
2) NZ
3) Aus
4) Canada
5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark
6) USA
7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd
8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.
Dixie dean:
I would tend to agree. Haven't been to NZ so wouldn't know. Wrt Canada and USA depends where you go. Vancouver, Toronto, New York feel familiar, back woods Louisiana or Moose Factory not to mention rural Quebec less so.
https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/969656144993181696?s=21
Breaking
Shooting at US University
@Cookie
I agree with all of that ( yes 5-8 are tricky!). Yes language is vital. Our day to day popular culture is far more Kylie and Beyoncé than Halliday and whoever else ( I literally cannot think of another European example quickly!!). We can communicate in nuance, joke, emote, not just get a meaning over. Barnier, Juncker, and Tusk just come over as more distant to us than let’s say Bill Clinton, or J Trudeau or Malcolm Turnbull. Can’t be helped, doesn’t make them bad in any way per se, it just is.
I have a theory that English is in a pretty odd linguistic position in that there is nothing with which it is vaguely mutually intelligible to any degree, a situation just about alone amongst the major European languages. German/Dutch, Italian/ Spanish/Portuguese, the Scandinavians, Polish/Czech etc etc. Continentals are aurally used to blurred linguistic lines, we are just totally not.
And I have a language degree and have lived on the continent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.
Australia
NZ
Netherlands
Scandinavia
Canada
Germany, Austria
Italy, Spain, Portugal, France
Rest of Europe
West Indies
South Africa
Rest of Anglophone Africa
Latin America
USA
India
Japan and Korea
China
SEAsia
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
We identify as British being part Welsh, part English, my wife Scots, and my children and grandchildren all Welsh
There you go.
"We will not accept the rights of Canada and the obligations of Norway."
Point is, if you have the obligations of Norway, to resolve most of the issues, you can have the rights of Norway too. It won't be the EEA, but something broadly similar.
ie she drew up a rota as to who wasin charge of the keys to lock up the office each night
Or perhaps she checked the vault to make sure it was Strong and Stable
Over 60% of them are of direct British descent, over only 3-4 generations.
I'm tired of Theresa May trying to be all things to all people.
And your assertions are based on your fanaticism, nothing more.
Its almost as if her public pronouncements are not carried through
What is Ireland part of?
But, that in-and-of-itself is sufficient to explain why a federal Europe (obviously) wasn't for us.