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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Tier 1 - Australia, Canada, and New Zealand

    Tier 2 - America

    Tier 3 - ROI, Scandinavia, The Netherlands, Germany,

    Tier 4 - Old Europe, Portugal, Italy, Poland, and the Eastern European countries

    Tier 900 - France

    France ranked far too high!
    I have Huguenot and Norman ancestry, it ranks a lot higher for me
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    TGOHF said:
    Didn't Charles's mum say about Cameron - "That man doesn't know how to listen".
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    Hmm, pretence and guilt are not liberation.
    That's deep. Not sure you're right.
    Have you read this (or listened to the original broadcasts)?

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Germany-Memories-Dr-Neil-MacGregor/dp/0241008336

    Absolutely fascinating stuff. History is ever-present in Germany, but unspoken. And it was a glorious history, until the 30th January 1933.

    Interesting. I will take a look. My company merged with a German company in 2015. Since all mergers are 'interesting', I've been on the front-line of cultural differences for three years. I agree history lurks under the surface. The fact that all business is conducted in English is certainly part of it.

    I would say that we're probably as troubled by the past as our continental neighbours, but in a different way. We have to live up to the standards set by the greatest generation. It's one of the reasons people wanted to "take BACK control", rather than "take control".

  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    TGOHF said:
    Didn't Charles's mum say about Cameron - "That man doesn't know how to listen".
    I wondered whether it had anything to do with Mr Juncker not listening to Mr Cameron when it could have made a difference. After that, why should Mr Cameron care what Mr Juncker is saying?

    Good evening, everyone.
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 441
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption

    That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
    I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
    Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
    That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.
    Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.
    Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own.
    Really?

    Shakespeares plays were often set in Italy, Denmark, Greece or Rome. They are often rooted in older European stories, as were Chaucer's. Our Royal family is ethnically German, and our Puritan revolution and Non-Conformist churches in the writings of the Swiss Calvin. There are many further interactions and cultural hybridisations with mainland Europe. Ours is a distinct strand, but is most definitely part of a broader European tapestry. Both ourselves and the continent are culturally richer and better for it.

    We have links with them, of course we do, but we have links with lots of places. Shakespeare isn't a brilliant example: if someone who can write a whole play set in Venice with not a single nod to the whole canal thing, we can take it it's just a name to him. Our religious setup owes a lot more to being anti-European than being pro. And so on.
    Out of 193 states that are members of the UN, we have invaded or fought wars in the territory of 171. So we certainly do have links with lots of places!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    France and Britain are symbiotic. You can't fully understand one, without the other. The USA was the child of both.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Our political culture is spiraling into venomous bitterness. How do we escape?
    Tom Harris"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/02/political-culture-spiraling-venomous-bitterness-do-get/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption

    That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
    I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
    Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
    That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.
    Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.
    Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own.
    Really?

    Shakespeares plays we

    We have links with them, of course we do, but we have links with lots of places. Shakespeare isn't a brilliant example: if someone who can write a whole play set in Venice with not a single nod to the whole canal thing, we can take it it's just a name to him. Our religious setup owes a lot more to being anti-European than being pro. And so on.
    Out of 193 states that are members of the UN, we have invaded or fought wars in the territory of 171. So we certainly do have links with lots of places!
    Watch out Paraguay and Tajikistan, we're looking for the whole set I guess

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:



    If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.



    And non of that stops me going to France next week!
    I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...
    The point is I can tell them in nuance if t to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.
    The is an illusion created by a common language in t for us?
    I’m not Brazilian or
    This is

    As to Spain - .
    We share a monarch with NZ, Aus and Canada unlike with the ROI
    We share a monarch with Papua New Guinea too, but I don't think we or they would consider them to be very culturally akin with us.
    True but most Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians (outside of Quebec) are of British origin
    Decreasingly so.

    New
    So yes a clear majority of New Zealanders are still of British origin on white
    If you discount the Irish! about 25% of "British" Australians and Kiwis are of Irish extraction. It is part of the strong strand of republicanism there.

    More than half of Australians have one or both parents born overseas. Decreasingly British.
    Given plenty of Brits still emigrate to Australia (It is our number 1 destination for emigration) having a parent born overseas in Australia does not really change the point a vast amount.

    Of course when the Australians voted on the monarchy 55% voted for, the same as voted No in Scotland and 3% more than voted Leave here
    Australia was certainly more British ethnically in 1945, but while there was massive post war migration from Britain, there was too from Italy, Greece and Yugoslavia. After the "White Australia" policy ended in the Seventies, the Asian migration became much more substantial. China, India and SE Asians are particularly represented. Per capita immigration to Australia has been 3 times the UK's for the last two decades, despite or possibly because of the points system.

    Australia increasingly sees its future as a Pacifico-Asian country. This is a demographic as well as political phenomenon.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    AndyJS said:

    "Our political culture is spiraling into venomous bitterness. How do we escape?
    Tom Harris"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/02/political-culture-spiraling-venomous-bitterness-do-get/

    The only way is when as a collective mass the public have had enough of the bitterness, when we stop rewarding the bitter and venemous, which will force change (and unfortunately personal agreeableness of some key individuals does not mean the political culture as a whole is not incredibly bitter). It'll be a while yet.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    kle4 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption

    That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.
    I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.
    Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."
    That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.
    Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.
    Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own.
    Really?

    Shakespeares plays we

    We have links with them, of course we do, but we have links with lots of places. Shakespeare isn't a brilliant example: if someone who can write a whole play set in Venice with not a single nod to the whole canal thing, we can take it it's just a name to him. Our religious setup owes a lot more to being anti-European than being pro. And so on.
    Out of 193 states that are members of the UN, we have invaded or fought wars in the territory of 171. So we certainly do have links with lots of places!
    Watch out Paraguay and Tajikistan, we're looking for the whole set I guess

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html
    You have to have been a pretty shitty little country not to have anything the British Empire thought was worth plundering....
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Soubry looking a bit dishevelled on News at 10

    And her comments were ?
    I couldn't tell you precisely. Not particularly impressed...
    With her or she was not impressed
    Who in their right mind could be impressed with Soubry?
    She was not impressed with May's speech
    So that was just Farage and Soubry that didn’t like it. Two cheeks of the same ...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited March 2018
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:



    If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.



    And non of that stops me going to France next week!
    I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...
    The point is I can teven Europe on a map.
    The is an illusion created by n language in t for us?
    I’m not Brazilian or
    This is

    As to Spain - .
    We share a monarch with NZ, Aus and Canada unlike with the ROI
    We share a monarch wiith us.
    True but most Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians (outside of Quebec) are of British origin
    Decreasingly so.

    New
    So yes a clear majority of New Zealanders are still of British origin on white
    If you or both pasingly British.
    Given plenty of Brits still emigrate to Australia (It is d Leave here
    Australia was certainly more British ethnically in 1945, but while there was massive post war migration from Britain, there was too from Italy, Greece and Yugoslavia. After the "White Australia" policy ended in the Seventies, the Asian migration became much more substantial. China, India and SE Asians are particularly represented. Per capita immigration to Australia has been 3 times the UK's for the last two decades, despite or possibly because of the points system.

    Australia increasingly sees its future as a Pacifico-Asian country. This is a demographic as well as political phenomenon.

    Even in 2016 the largest immigrant group in Australia came from England, followed by New Zealand then China.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia

    Australia having a third of our population and a vastly bigger landmass obviously has far more room for increased immigration than we do.

    Those who say Australia's future is solely Asian tend to be the same left liberals who said the UK's future was solely European
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    TGOHF said:

    Soubry looking a bit dishevelled on News at 10

    And her comments were ?
    I couldn't tell you precisely. Not particularly impressed...
    With her or she was not impressed
    Who in their right mind could be impressed with Soubry?
    She was not impressed with May's speech
    So that was just Farage and Soubry that didn’t like it. Two cheeks of the same ...
    With May in the middle. :-)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited March 2018
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    Hmm, pretence and guilt are not liberation.
    That's deep. Not sure you're right.
    Have you read this (or listened to the original broadcasts)?

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Germany-Memories-Dr-Neil-MacGregor/dp/0241008336

    Absolutely fascinating stuff. History is ever-present in Germany, but unspoken. And it was a glorious history, until the 30th January 1933.

    Interesting. I will take a look. My company merged with a German company in 2015. Since all mergers are 'interesting', I've been on the front-line of cultural differences for three years. I agree history lurks under the surface. The fact that all business is conducted in English is certainly part of it.

    I would say that we're probably as troubled by the past as our continental neighbours, but in a different way. We have to live up to the standards set by the greatest generation. It's one of the reasons people wanted to "take BACK control", rather than "take control".

    Another for you:

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y1L5VfVfBVkC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false

    George Steiner (most of whose family were murdered in the holocaust) trying to come to terms with how the Nazi horrors grew out of the culture which gave us Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Goethe, Schiller, Luther, Thomas Mann, Gutenberg, Gauss... Or, even more bewildering, how Nazism co-existed with high culture.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited March 2018

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    Hmm, pretence and guilt are not liberation.
    That's deep. Not sure you're right.
    Have you read this (or listened to the original broadcasts)?

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Germany-Memories-Dr-Neil-MacGregor/dp/0241008336

    Absolutely fascinating stuff. History is ever-present in Germany, but unspoken. And it was a glorious history, until the 30th January 1933.

    Interesting. I will take a look. My company merged with a German company in 2015. Since all mergers are 'interesting', I've been on the front-line of cultural differences for three years. I agree history lurks under the surface. The fact that all business is conducted in English is certainly part of it.

    I would say that we're probably as troubled by the past as our continental neighbours, but in a different way. We have to live up to the standards set by the greatest generation. It's one of the reasons people wanted to "take BACK control", rather than "take control".

    Another for you:

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y1L5VfVfBVkC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false

    George Steiner (most of whose family were murdered in the holocaust) trying to come to terms with how the Nazi horrors grew out of the culture which gave us Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Goethe, Schiller, Luther, Thomas Mann, Gutenberg, Gauss...
    Thanks Richard!

    A slightly less enlightened article that has been useful and might be interesting.

    https://hbr.org/2017/07/being-the-boss-in-brussels-boston-and-beijing
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.

    Germany has been Europe’s “problem child” for ages (for centuries, if you accept the views of the historian, Brendan Simms) and the EU has to a very significant degree been created to stop Germany being a problem in Europe. A noble ambition no doubt. Certainly a necessary one and, so far, successful. It will be interesting to see how successful it continues to be. That to my mind is one of the most interesting questions for future European politics.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    May I just say that the Soubry/Meeks/Farage linkage is the most enjoyably unlikely trio that I've ever been associated with outside childhood games of Consequences.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited March 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past. That's quite a liberating thing.

    Whereas Britain is haunted by the ghosts of the greatest generation. It impacts and constrains the left (NHS) and the right (Churchill). We are the Calum Best and Julian Lennon of Europe.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past.

    That doesn't mean it isn't constrained by history, just that for the past 30 years the constraints from the bad bits has been a positive thing.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    May I just say that the Soubry/Meeks/Farage linkage is the most enjoyably unlikely trio that I've ever been associated with outside childhood games of Consequences.

    Have the three of them ever been in the same room at once??

    Hmmmmmm... :D
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    RobD said:

    May I just say that the Soubry/Meeks/Farage linkage is the most enjoyably unlikely trio that I've ever been associated with outside childhood games of Consequences.

    Have the three of them ever been in the same room at once??

    Hmmmmmm... :D
    I can't speak for Anna and Nigel.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.

    Germany has been Europe’s “problem child” for ages (for centuries, if you accept the views of the historian, Brendan Simms) and the EU has to a very significant degree been created to stop Germany being a problem in Europe. A noble ambition no doubt. Certainly a necessary one and, so far, successful. It will be interesting to see how successful it continues to be. That to my mind is one of the most interesting questions for future European politics.
    Germany has been Europe's 'problem child' for 2000 years.

    The arrogance of Publius Quinctillius Varus changed the course of history.

    And the EU wasn't able to stop Merkel's madness.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past.

    That doesn't mean it isn't constrained by history, just that for the past 30 years the constraints from the bad bits has been a positive thing.
    There are two ways of looking at things. Most Germans i've met and worked with are more optimistic and more forward looking than us cynical Brits. That's pretty liberating.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past. That's quite a liberating thing.

    Whereas Britain is haunted by the ghosts of the greatest generation. It impacts and constrains the left (NHS) and the right (Churchill). We are the Calum Best and Julian Lennon of Europe.
    Perhaps 1997 was supposed to be the moment we broke free from those ghosts, but instead Blair initiated a needless culture war against 'the forces of conservatism' and we ended up where we are.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    "THERESA MAY wants to cut ties with her powerful elections guru Sir Lynton Crosby after last June’s poll disaster, The Sun can reveal."

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5713733/theresa-may-wants-to-cut-ties-with-elections-guru-sir-lynton-crosby-after-poll-disaster/
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past. That's quite a liberating thing.

    Whereas Britain is haunted by the ghosts of the greatest generation. It impacts and constrains the left (NHS) and the right (Churchill). We are the Calum Best and Julian Lennon of Europe.
    Perhaps 1997 was supposed to be the moment we broke free from those ghosts, but instead Blair initiated a needless culture war against 'the forces of conservatism' and we ended up where we are.
    The forces of conservatism certainly struck back in the shape of Corbyn and Brexit. But they won't win forever.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    edited March 2018
    Ishmael_Z said:

    We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at

    Oh, you are kidding me. Go and listen to some Vaughan Williams and Howells and come back to me. We never had a Beethoven or a Bach, but we did, of course, have a Handel, and since the start of the 20th century we've been at least the equal of Germany and France.
    Ishmael_Z said:

    and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?

    Most influential British band of the last 30 years? Almost certainly New Order, who essentially invented and commercialised what's now called EDM. Who were their greatest single influence? Kraftwerk. Heaven's sake, Blue Monday was built around a Kraftwerk sample.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited March 2018
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past. That's quite a liberating thing.

    Whereas Britain is haunted by the ghosts of the greatest generation. It impacts and constrains the left (NHS) and the right (Churchill). We are the Calum Best and Julian Lennon of Europe.

    Hmm -apart from being wedded to late 20th century tech and ideas. The industry 4.0 is an attempt at a reboot but they have failed to create any digital output anything like apple, amazon or even Sky.

    Meanwhile they have hamstrung themsleves with expensive but generally useless green electricity with no nuclear and of course the virtue signalling nonsense of death of a culture by migrant invasion.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Ishmael_Z said:

    We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at

    Oh, you are kidding me. Go and listen to some Vaughan Williams and Howells and come back to me. We never had a Beethoven or a Bach, but we did, of course, have a Handel, and since the start of the 20th century we've been at least the equal of Germany and France.
    Ishmael_Z said:

    and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?

    Most influential British band of the last 30 years? Almost certainly New Order, who essentially invented and commercialised what's now called EDM. Who were their greatest single influence? Kraftwerk. Heaven's sake, Blue Monday was built around a Kraftwerk sample.
    I doubt many pbers dance.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past. That's quite a liberating thing.

    Whereas Britain is haunted by the ghosts of the greatest generation. It impacts and constrains the left (NHS) and the right (Churchill). We are the Calum Best and Julian Lennon of Europe.

    Hmm -apart from being wedded to late 20th century tech and ideas. The industry 4.0 is an attempt at a reboot but they have failed to create any digital output anything like apple, amazon or even Sky.

    Meanwhile they have hamstrung themsleves with expensive but generally useless green electricity with no nuclear and of course the virtue signalling nonsense of death of a culture by migrant invasion.
    SAP is pretty successful, boring and dismal though it most certainly is.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,262

    "THERESA MAY wants to cut ties with her powerful elections guru Sir Lynton Crosby after last June’s poll disaster, The Sun can reveal."

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5713733/theresa-may-wants-to-cut-ties-with-elections-guru-sir-lynton-crosby-after-poll-disaster/

    So soon? Bit of a knee-jerk reaction from Tezza there?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past.

    That doesn't mean it isn't constrained by history, just that for the past 30 years the constraints from the bad bits has been a positive thing.
    There are two ways of looking at things. Most Germans i've met and worked with are more optimistic and more forward looking than us cynical Brits. That's pretty liberating.
    But one in four vote for the extreme right or the successors of those that built the wall and shot you if you tried to leave. And about an eighth vote for the Greens who are pretty extreme in parts too.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,262
    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past.

    That doesn't mean it isn't constrained by history, just that for the past 30 years the constraints from the bad bits has been a positive thing.
    There are two ways of looking at things. Most Germans i've met and worked with are more optimistic and more forward looking than us cynical Brits. That's pretty liberating.
    But one in four vote for the extreme right or the successors of those that built the wall and shot you if you tried to leave. And about an eighth vote for the Greens who are pretty extreme in parts too.
    About an eighth voted UKIP here in 2015, so we're not on strong ground imo.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past. That's quite a liberating thing.

    Whereas Britain is haunted by the ghosts of the greatest generation. It impacts and constrains the left (NHS) and the right (Churchill). We are the Calum Best and Julian Lennon of Europe.

    Hmm -apart from being wedded to late 20th century tech and ideas. The industry 4.0 is an attempt at a reboot but they have failed to create any digital output anything like apple, amazon or even Sky.
    I wouldn't say that. Germany is ahead of us in research in many ways. In my particular field I've been amazed at how much of what we see in the products of Microsoft, Apple and Google originated from the universities of Freiburg and Karlsruhe.

    The Bay Area is better at commercialising these inventions. But it's better than us, too. I wouldn't claim any superiority over Germany in that regard.

    (One of the great curiosities for those of us who grew up with the 80s computing industry is that France has made a much, much better fist of its indigenous video games industry than we did.)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past.

    That doesn't mean it isn't constrained by history, just that for the past 30 years the constraints from the bad bits has been a positive thing.
    There are two ways of looking at things. Most Germans i've met and worked with are more optimistic and more forward looking than us cynical Brits. That's pretty liberating.
    But one in four vote for the extreme right or the successors of those that built the wall and shot you if you tried to leave. And about an eighth vote for the Greens who are pretty extreme in parts too.
    About an eighth voted UKIP here in 2015, so we're not on strong ground imo.
    Half as many, and they are supposedly more optimistic and forward looking. :p
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695

    Soubry looking a bit dishevelled on News at 10

    Is that a polite way of saying she was as pissed as a newt again? :D
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,759
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past. That's quite a liberating thing.

    Leaving aside gassing their Jews, I agree.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Given the scenes coming out of that Dublin Lidl tonight perhaps there should be a hard border to protect Ulster.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past.

    That doesn't mean it isn't constrained by history, just that for the past 30 years the constraints from the bad bits has been a positive thing.
    There are two ways of looking at things. Most Germans i've met and worked with are more optimistic and more forward looking than us cynical Brits. That's pretty liberating.
    But one in four vote for the extreme right or the successors of those that built the wall and shot you if you tried to leave. And about an eighth vote for the Greens who are pretty extreme in parts too.
    About an eighth voted UKIP here in 2015, so we're not on strong ground imo.
    Rubbish. Since down to about 2-4% and I suspect UKIP for all their manifest faults are not quite the AFD, and you conveniently leave out the mid teens percent who appear to think that Honecker was “misunderstood” and the Wall wasn’t all that lethal really honest. What were the Stasi doing - arranging bloody tea dances?? Give me strength.

    At least the Greens are so crackpot they’ll bugger Germany’s admirable economy.

    Germany is a great place but cut the faux running down of the UK.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past.

    That doesn't mean it isn't constrained by history, just that for the past 30 years the constraints from the bad bits has been a positive thing.
    There are two ways of looking at things. Most Germans i've met and worked with are more optimistic and more forward looking than us cynical Brits. That's pretty liberating.
    But one in four vote for the extreme right or the successors of those that built the wall and shot you if you tried to leave. And about an eighth vote for the Greens who are pretty extreme in parts too.
    About an eighth voted UKIP here in 2015, so we're not on strong ground imo.
    Rubbish. Since down to about 2-4% and I suspect UKIP for all their manifest faults are not quite the AFD, and you conveniently leave out the mid teens percent who appear to think that Honecker was “misunderstood” and the Wall wasn’t all that lethal really honest. What were the Stasi doing - arranging bloody tea dances?? Give me strength.

    At least the Greens are so crackpot they’ll bugger Germany’s admirable economy.

    Germany is a great place but cut the faux running down of the UK.
    UKIP are exact comparators of the AfD. Germany, the Netherlands and Britain show that the baseline is that roughly one in eight of the population are arseholes. How many more can be attracted to the arsehole cause is down to local considerations.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past.

    That doesn't mean it isn't constrained by history, just that for the past 30 years the constraints from the bad bits has been a positive thing.
    There are two ways of looking at things. Most Germans i've met and worked with are more optimistic and more forward looking than us cynical Brits. That's pretty liberating.
    But one in four vote for the extreme right or the successors of those that built the wall and shot you if you tried to leave. And about an eighth vote for the Greens who are pretty extreme in parts too.
    About an eighth voted UKIP here in 2015, so we're not on strong ground imo.
    Rubbish. Since down to about 2-4% and I suspect UKIP for all their manifest faults are not quite the AFD, and you conveniently leave out the mid teens percent who appear to think that Honecker was “misunderstood” and the Wall wasn’t all that lethal really honest. What were the Stasi doing - arranging bloody tea dances?? Give me strength.

    At least the Greens are so crackpot they’ll bugger Germany’s admirable economy.

    Germany is a great place but cut the faux running down of the UK.
    UKIP are exact comparators of the AfD. Germany, the Netherlands and Britain show that the baseline is that roughly one in eight of the population are arseholes. How many more can be attracted to the arsehole cause is down to local considerations.
    Well it’s one in four in Germany then, if not four in ten.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,759
    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    A plan with no drawbacks. Shame no one has ever tried it before to see if there might be any though.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past.

    That doesn't mean it isn't constrained by history, just that for the past 30 years the constraints from the bad bits has been a positive thing.
    There are two ways of looking at things. Most Germans i've met and worked with are more optimistic and more forward looking than us cynical Brits. That's pretty liberating.
    But one in four vote for the extreme right or the successors of those that built the wall and shot you if you tried to leave. And about an eighth vote for the Greens who are pretty extreme in parts too.
    About an eighth voted UKIP here in 2015, so we're not on strong ground imo.
    Rubbish. Since down to about 2-4% and I suspect UKIP for all their manifest faults are not quite the AFD, and you conveniently leave out the mid teens percent who appear to think that Honecker was “misunderstood” and the Wall wasn’t all that lethal really honest. What were the Stasi doing - arranging bloody tea dances?? Give me strength.

    At least the Greens are so crackpot they’ll bugger Germany’s admirable economy.

    Germany is a great place but cut the faux running down of the UK.
    UKIP are exact comparators of the AfD. Germany, the Netherlands and Britain show that the baseline is that roughly one in eight of the population are arseholes. How many more can be attracted to the arsehole cause is down to local considerations.
    There's a lot more arseholes than just that. You need to add the ones on the other side.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Ishmael_Z said:

    We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at

    Oh, you are kidding me. Go and listen to some Vaughan Williams and Howells and come back to me. We never had a Beethoven or a Bach, but we did, of course, have a Handel, and since the start of the 20th century we've been at least the equal of Germany and France.
    Ishmael_Z said:

    and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?

    Most influential British band of the last 30 years? Almost certainly New Order, who essentially invented and commercialised what's now called EDM. Who were their greatest single influence? Kraftwerk. Heaven's sake, Blue Monday was built around a Kraftwerk sample.
    Radiohead were certainly the more influential band than New Order. Nobody will remember great EDM acts in 40 years.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,759

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited March 2018

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Anywhere they can. My wife's family have scattered to the UK, Australia, Canada ... anywhere they can get a visa to if they can't get a passport. She's British/South-African dual-national by birth but born and bred there and came to the UK for the first time aged 21. She'll never go back.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Ishmael_Z said:

    We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at

    Oh, you are kidding me. Go and listen to some Vaughan Williams and Howells and come back to me. We never had a Beethoven or a Bach, but we did, of course, have a Handel, and since the start of the 20th century we've been at least the equal of Germany and France.
    Ishmael_Z said:

    and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?

    Most influential British band of the last 30 years? Almost certainly New Order, who essentially invented and commercialised what's now called EDM. Who were their greatest single influence? Kraftwerk. Heaven's sake, Blue Monday was built around a Kraftwerk sample.
    Not forgetting another brilliant and massively influential German group, Can, who in the late 60s and early 70s were the forerunners of much of the techo and ambient jungle music of the more recent decades.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,759

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Obsessed with identities not people.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Obsessed with identities not people.
    Syrian people die because people like you won't let them in. That's the obsession.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,759

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Many of them have rights to settle here, no doubt to your regret.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited March 2018

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Obsessed with identities not people.
    Syrian people die because people like you won't let them in. That's the obsession.
    I don't think the problem was with the genuine refugees. Cameron had the right approach on this issue.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Obsessed with identities not people.
    Syrian people die because people like you won't let them in. That's the obsession.
    Because we're bordering Syria or because Calais is such a dangerous place to live?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Many of them have rights to settle here, no doubt to your regret.
    I don't see much regret on your part that Syrians are condemned to die because your fellow travellers whip up hatred against them, preventing them from settling here.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    RobD said:

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Obsessed with identities not people.
    Syrian people die because people like you won't let them in. That's the obsession.
    I don't think the problem was with the genuine refugees. Cameron had the right approach on this issue.
    Yes, he did. When I was supporting him, pb was against me. But times have moved on.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Obsessed with identities not people.
    Syrian people die because people like you won't let them in. That's the obsession.
    I don't think the problem was with the genuine refugees. Cameron had the right approach on this issue.
    Absolutely. People fleeing wartorn Syria or in abject poverty in overcrowded camps in Turkey etc I have far more sympathy for than people fleeing Pas de Calais.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2018
    I can see this is going to be the next big "cultural values"-based disagreement: what should happen to white South Africans if and when South Africa forces them to leave the country by making life impossible for them.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited March 2018
    Reflecting on the constant 'the UK is slow to spell out what it wants while the EU is ahead of the game' criticism - it is what you get when one of the parties is a democracy, the other, not.

    Yes, Mrs May has had to 'negotiate' with her Cabinet, her party's various factions, the DUP (when she remembers) and parliamentary arithmetic.

    And that's supposed to be a bad thing?

    As Professor Allott observed, the EU's biggest problem is not Brexit, but 'democracy'....

    I was in Suharto's Indonesia when the 'shut up about democracy, the economy is growing' deal broke down - the result was pretty swift. Of course the EU is nowhere near that bad - but as it grows ever more powerful, it grows ever more distant from those it rules. That cannot continue indefinitely.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,759

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Many of them have rights to settle here, no doubt to your regret.
    I don't see much regret on your part that Syrians are condemned to die because your fellow travellers whip up hatred against them, preventing them from settling here.
    I was not aware that you were in favour of mass migration from Syria. Rather the reverse.

    I thought David Cameron was very sensible on that issue. On another forum, I was compared to an architect of the Final Solution for defending him.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Obsessed with identities not people.
    Syrian people die because people like you won't let them in. That's the obsession.
    Nope. Syrians and many others die because they are encouraged to migrate rather than being helped in countries surrounding Syria

    David Cameron had an excellent plan for helping those most at need by taking them directly from the camps and bringing them to Britain. It should have been done on a massive scale. Instead that moron Merkel encouraged migration - usually by those most able to travel and coincidentally least in need of help - and so turned Europe against those in greatest need.

    It is those who encouraged mass migration who have blood on their hands, not those who tried to devise responsible plans to help those most in need. You are, as always, an utter disgrace.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Reflecting on the constant 'the UK is slow to spell out what it wants while the EU is ahead of the game' criticism - it is what you get when one of the parties is a democracy, the other, not.

    Yes, Mrs May has had to 'negotiate' with her Cabinet, her party's various factions, the DUP (when she remembers) and parliamentary arithmetic.

    And that's supposed to be a bad thing?

    As Professor Allott observed, the EU's biggest problem is not Brexit, but 'democracy'....

    That's a stretch. It's much easier for the EU27 to come to a position because their interests in the negotiation are clear. It's very hard for the UK to come to a position because it is acting against its own interests.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.

    Germany has been Europe’s “problem child” for ages (for centuries, if you accept the views of the historian, Brendan Simms) and the EU has to a very significant degree been created to stop Germany being a problem in Europe. A noble ambition no doubt. Certainly a necessary one and, so far, successful. It will be interesting to see how successful it continues to be. That to my mind is one of the most interesting questions for future European politics.
    I think if we'd been having this discussion in 1900, we would have described France as the problem child: first it was Louis XIV sending his armies around Europe, then Napolean.

    And if we'd had it 150 years before that, it would have been the bellicose Spanish, who'd attempted to invade the UK, and had armies in Germany and most of Italy, as well as having a navy that terrorised British trade to North America.

    In 250AD, we could probably have spoken of the fierce and warlike Italians, whose legions had spread out across the continent.

    Basically, if you pick a large European country, then there was a 100 to 200 year period (or more in the case of the Italians), when they were the military aggressor.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    David Cameron had an excellent plan for helping those most at need by taking them directly from the camps and bringing them to Britain. It should have been done on a massive scale.

    Errr... I may have spotted a flaw with your plan.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Many of them have rights to settle here, no doubt to your regret.
    I don't see much regret on your part that Syrians are condemned to die because your fellow travellers whip up hatred against them, preventing them from settling here.
    I was not aware that you were in favour of mass migration from Syria. Rather the reverse.

    I thought David Cameron was very sensible on that issue. On another forum, I was compared to an architect of the Final Solution for defending him.
    Time has moved on, and those who were adamantly telling me that it was outrageous to support Syrians in the camps then went on to adamantly tell me that it was outrageous that when they weren't supported in the camps that they should not have moved. But they did, and the toothpaste cannot be squeezed back in the tube.

    Meanwhile, Britain has no particular obligation to take all 4.5 million white South Africans. It should manage their expectations accordingly. I appreciate that Brexiters will see them as natural allies but there's no reason why the rest of us should accept a group that are likely to drag Britain to the knuckle-dragging right.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766

    Most influential British band of the last 30 years? Almost certainly New Order, who essentially invented and commercialised what's now called EDM. Who were their greatest single influence? Kraftwerk. Heaven's sake, Blue Monday was built around a Kraftwerk sample.

    Given New Order was founded 38 years ago, I think you may need to adjust your timings.

    Also.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbWBRnDK_AE
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    Elliot said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at

    Oh, you are kidding me. Go and listen to some Vaughan Williams and Howells and come back to me. We never had a Beethoven or a Bach, but we did, of course, have a Handel, and since the start of the 20th century we've been at least the equal of Germany and France.
    Ishmael_Z said:

    and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?

    Most influential British band of the last 30 years? Almost certainly New Order, who essentially invented and commercialised what's now called EDM. Who were their greatest single influence? Kraftwerk. Heaven's sake, Blue Monday was built around a Kraftwerk sample.
    Radiohead were certainly the more influential band than New Order. Nobody will remember great EDM acts in 40 years.
    +1
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past. That's quite a liberating thing.

    Whereas Britain is haunted by the ghosts of the greatest generation. It impacts and constrains the left (NHS) and the right (Churchill). We are the Calum Best and Julian Lennon of Europe.

    Hmm -apart from being wedded to late 20th century tech and ideas. The industry 4.0 is an attempt at a reboot but they have failed to create any digital output anything like apple, amazon or even Sky.

    Meanwhile they have hamstrung themsleves with expensive but generally useless green electricity with no nuclear and of course the virtue signalling nonsense of death of a culture by migrant invasion.
    That's not true: the fourth largest software company in the world (behind Microsoft, IBM, and Oracle) is SAP.

    It's utterly dominant as the "operating system" of large companies. Unilever, Shell, and pretty much company in the world runs on SAP.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    I cannot say I expected that south africa story to leave immediately to a false dichotomy brexit issue again, but that's obsessives for you.

    Good night all.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    RobD said:

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Obsessed with identities not people.
    Syrian people die because people like you won't let them in. That's the obsession.
    I don't think the problem was with the genuine refugees. Cameron had the right approach on this issue.
    Yes, he did. When I was supporting him, pb was against me.
    Really? As I recall most of PB was in favour of Cameron's plan and opposed to Merkel's idiocy.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,759

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Many of them have rights to settle here, no doubt to your regret.
    I don't see much regret on your part that Syrians are condemned to die because your fellow travellers whip up hatred against them, preventing them from settling here.
    I was not aware that you were in favour of mass migration from Syria. Rather the reverse.

    I thought David Cameron was very sensible on that issue. On another forum, I was compared to an architect of the Final Solution for defending him.
    Time has moved on, and those who were adamantly telling me that it was outrageous to support Syrians in the camps then went on to adamantly tell me that it was outrageous that when they weren't supported in the camps that they should not have moved. But they did, and the toothpaste cannot be squeezed back in the tube.

    Meanwhile, Britain has no particular obligation to take all 4.5 million white South Africans. It should manage their expectations accordingly. I appreciate that Brexiters will see them as natural allies but there's no reason why the rest of us should accept a group that are likely to drag Britain to the knuckle-dragging right.
    I don't think we have an obligation to take in 4.5 m South Africans, either. But, we have an obligation to take in those who are legally entitled to settle here, even though you dislike them.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    kle4 said:

    I cannot say I expected that south africa story to leave immediately to a false dichotomy brexit issue again, but that's obsessives for you.

    Good night all.

    kle4 said:

    I cannot say I expected that south africa story to leave immediately to a false dichotomy brexit issue again, but that's obsessives for you.

    Good night all.

    We didn’t mention pineapple pizzas once!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    RobD said:

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Obsessed with identities not people.
    Syrian people die because people like you won't let them in. That's the obsession.
    I don't think the problem was with the genuine refugees. Cameron had the right approach on this issue.
    Yes, he did. When I was supporting him, pb was against me.
    Really? As I recall most of PB was in favour of Cameron's plan and opposed to Merkel's idiocy.
    Your recall is faulty. The occasion on which I have received most hostility from pb was not Brexit but when I suggested in 2013 that Britain should not take refugees from Syria but instead support them in situ.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:



    Time has moved on, and those who were adamantly telling me that it was outrageous to support Syrians in the camps then went on to adamantly tell me that it was outrageous that when they weren't supported in the camps that they should not have moved. But they did, and the toothpaste cannot be squeezed back in the tube.

    Meanwhile, Britain has no particular obligation to take all 4.5 million white South Africans. It should manage their expectations accordingly. I appreciate that Brexiters will see them as natural allies but there's no reason why the rest of us should accept a group that are likely to drag Britain to the knuckle-dragging right.

    I don't think we have an obligation to take in 4.5 m South Africans, either. But, we have an obligation to take in those who are legally entitled to settle here, even though you dislike them.
    I expect I won't see hysterical anti-immigrant anti-asylum seeking stories from you and your ilk on that particular cohort, for some reason that I can't quite put my finger on.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Many of them have rights to settle here, no doubt to your regret.
    I don't see much regret on your part that Syrians are condemned to die because your fellow travellers whip up hatred against them, preventing them from settling here.
    I was not aware that you were in favour of mass migration from Syria. Rather the reverse.

    I thought David Cameron was very sensible on that issue. On another forum, I was compared to an architect of the Final Solution for defending him.
    Meanwhile, Britain has no particular obligation to take all 4.5 million white South Africans.
    Why would we when over 60% of white South Africans are Afrikaans speakers and likely of Dutch descent?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    David Cameron had an excellent plan for helping those most at need by taking them directly from the camps and bringing them to Britain. It should have been done on a massive scale.

    Errr... I may have spotted a flaw with your plan.
    Yes there was a flaw. The fact that the rest of Europe and Germany in particular did not support it and instead simply encouraged anyone who could make the arduous journey to walk to safety instead.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    RobD said:

    TGOHF said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Obsessed with identities not people.
    Syrian people die because people like you won't let them in. That's the obsession.
    I don't think the problem was with the genuine refugees. Cameron had the right approach on this issue.
    Yes, he did. When I was supporting him, pb was against me.
    Really? As I recall most of PB was in favour of Cameron's plan and opposed to Merkel's idiocy.
    Your recall is faulty. The occasion on which I have received most hostility from pb was not Brexit but when I suggested in 2013 that Britain should not take refugees from Syria but instead support them in situ.
    Meeks contra mundum.

    Cameron had few fans on here but that was one of his policies which had widespread support - I recall digging out the figures showing the UK was spending more on camps for Syrian refugees than the rest of the EU added together.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    David Cameron had an excellent plan for helping those most at need by taking them directly from the camps and bringing them to Britain. It should have been done on a massive scale.

    Errr... I may have spotted a flaw with your plan.
    Yes there was a flaw. The fact that the rest of Europe and Germany in particular did not support it and instead simply encouraged anyone who could make the arduous journey to walk to safety instead.
    Or finance camps in the region - unlike the UK.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    edited March 2018

    (One of the great curiosities for those of us who grew up with the 80s computing industry is that France has made a much, much better fist of its indigenous video games industry than we did.)

    The UK had a great industry in the 80s/90s:

    Ocean (became part of Infogrames)
    US Gold (became part of Eidos)
    Domark (also part of Eidos)
    Ultimate / Rare (first part of Nintendo, then Microsoft)
    Critereon (part of EA)
    Eidos (ended up bought by SquareEnix)
    Lionhead (bought by Microsoft)
    Codemasters (part of Reliance)
    Rockstar (part of Take Two)
    Argonaut (went bust)
    Psygnosis (Sony)

    A number of these still exist (Rare and Rockstar are both big employers, I would guess), but others ended up closing.

    The only major French video game maker still in existence is Ubi Soft, as Infogrames flamed out.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Many of them have rights to settle here, no doubt to your regret.
    I don't see much regret on your part that Syrians are condemned to die because your fellow travellers whip up hatred against them, preventing them from settling here.
    I was not aware that you were in favour of mass migration from Syria. Rather the reverse.

    I thought David Cameron was very sensible on that issue. On another forum, I was compared to an architect of the Final Solution for defending him.
    Time has moved on, and those who were adamantly telling me that it was outrageous to support Syrians in the camps then went on to adamantly tell me that it was outrageous that when they weren't supported in the camps that they should not have moved. But they did, and the toothpaste cannot be squeezed back in the tube.

    Meanwhile, Britain has no particular obligation to take all 4.5 million white South Africans. It should manage their expectations accordingly. I appreciate that Brexiters will see them as natural allies but there's no reason why the rest of us should accept a group that are likely to drag Britain to the knuckle-dragging right.
    Very revealing. So if these were nice left wing (as you interpret them) refugees we should accept them. But because you have this vision of them as being knuckle dragging right wingers you would rather just let them die.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,759

    Sean_F said:



    Time has moved on, and those who were adamantly telling me that it was outrageous to support Syrians in the camps then went on to adamantly tell me that it was outrageous that when they weren't supported in the camps that they should not have moved. But they did, and the toothpaste cannot be squeezed back in the tube.

    Meanwhile, Britain has no particular obligation to take all 4.5 million white South Africans. It should manage their expectations accordingly. I appreciate that Brexiters will see them as natural allies but there's no reason why the rest of us should accept a group that are likely to drag Britain to the knuckle-dragging right.

    I don't think we have an obligation to take in 4.5 m South Africans, either. But, we have an obligation to take in those who are legally entitled to settle here, even though you dislike them.
    I expect I won't see hysterical anti-immigrant anti-asylum seeking stories from you and your ilk on that particular cohort, for some reason that I can't quite put my finger on.
    You really have become a bitter man.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    David Cameron had an excellent plan for helping those most at need by taking them directly from the camps and bringing them to Britain. It should have been done on a massive scale.

    Errr... I may have spotted a flaw with your plan.
    Yes there was a flaw. The fact that the rest of Europe and Germany in particular did not support it and instead simply encouraged anyone who could make the arduous journey to walk to safety instead.
    Or finance camps in the region - unlike the UK.
    Yep it is notable that before the crisis blew up in Europe's face, Britain had put more money into the Syrian refugee camps than the whole of the rest of the EU combined.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Is Mr Meeks drunk tonight?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340



    Meeks contra mundum.

    Cameron had few fans on here but that was one of his policies which had widespread support - I recall digging out the figures showing the UK was spending more on camps for Syrian refugees than the rest of the EU added together.

    In December 2013 I wrote:

    "I'm with the hardline UKIPpers on the subject of Syria (and I'm generally pro-immigration). There are 9 million displaced Syrians. Accepting a few refugees - or even tens of thousands of refugees - is not going to make any meaningful difference. It's gesture politics at its worst.

    The British government has got this right - we should be giving generous aid to help the people on the ground. And we are."

    I could do a quiz, guess who wrote in response:

    "Your convoluted thinking to try and make this into something bad for Farage is a sight to behold. You are utterly wrong with this because you view immigration in simple black and white terms - just as you view UKIP in the same way."

    And who wrote:

    "Surely it's more racist to favour a European protectionist superstate with free movement of workers while requiring visas and controls for more talented people from Africa and Asia?"

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    "South Africa votes to seize land from white farmers without compensation

    'We must ensure that we restore the dignity of our people without compensating the criminals who stole our land'"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-white-farms-land-seizure-anc-race-relations-a8234461.html

    White people should leave South Africa, while they can.
    Where are you imagining they should go?
    Wherever they can. They face a very unpleasant future if they stay.
    Fine. I'm just hoping the Brexiters are going to apply very stringent requirements to them if they are thinking of coming to the UK.
    It doesn't matter what Brexiteers think. The settlement in the early nineties gave them a chance to get out before they were killed.
    How convenient. The Leavers can whip up hatred of Syrians fleeing a killing field, but somehow white South Africans get a free pass.
    Many of them have rights to settle here, no doubt to your regret.
    I don't see much regret on your part that Syrians are condemned to die because your fellow travellers whip up hatred against them, preventing them from settling here.
    I was not aware that you were in favour of mass migration from Syria. Rather the reverse.

    I thought David Cameron was very sensible on that issue. On another forum, I was compared to an architect of the Final Solution for defending him.
    Meanwhile, Britain has no particular obligation to take all 4.5 million white South Africans.
    Why would we when over 60% of white South Africans are Afrikaans speakers and likely of Dutch descent?
    I'm reading the excellent Rejoice, Rejoice by Alwyn Turner, and apparently the number one emigration destination for Brits in the early 1980s was South Africa.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:



    Time has moved on, and those who were adamantly telling me that it was outrageous to support Syrians in the camps then went on to adamantly tell me that it was outrageous that when they weren't supported in the camps that they should not have moved. But they did, and the toothpaste cannot be squeezed back in the tube.

    Meanwhile, Britain has no particular obligation to take all 4.5 million white South Africans. It should manage their expectations accordingly. I appreciate that Brexiters will see them as natural allies but there's no reason why the rest of us should accept a group that are likely to drag Britain to the knuckle-dragging right.

    I don't think we have an obligation to take in 4.5 m South Africans, either. But, we have an obligation to take in those who are legally entitled to settle here, even though you dislike them.
    I expect I won't see hysterical anti-immigrant anti-asylum seeking stories from you and your ilk on that particular cohort, for some reason that I can't quite put my finger on.
    You really have become a bitter man.
    The word you're looking for is touché.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    David Cameron had an excellent plan for helping those most at need by taking them directly from the camps and bringing them to Britain. It should have been done on a massive scale.

    Errr... I may have spotted a flaw with your plan.
    Yes there was a flaw. The fact that the rest of Europe and Germany in particular did not support it and instead simply encouraged anyone who could make the arduous journey to walk to safety instead.
    If we drill down into practicalities, aren't you really saying that we should have done Merkel's Turkey deal much earlier?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    David Cameron had an excellent plan for helping those most at need by taking them directly from the camps and bringing them to Britain. It should have been done on a massive scale.

    Errr... I may have spotted a flaw with your plan.
    Yes there was a flaw. The fact that the rest of Europe and Germany in particular did not support it and instead simply encouraged anyone who could make the arduous journey to walk to safety instead.
    If we drill down into practicalities, aren't you really saying that we should have done Merkel's Turkey deal much earlier?
    No. Merkel should have adopted Cameron's ideas.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    This is much better than any discussion about Brexit or refugees:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0u4M6vppCI
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,759



    Meeks contra mundum.

    Cameron had few fans on here but that was one of his policies which had widespread support - I recall digging out the figures showing the UK was spending more on camps for Syrian refugees than the rest of the EU added together.

    In December 2013 I wrote:

    "I'm with the hardline UKIPpers on the subject of Syria (and I'm generally pro-immigration). There are 9 million displaced Syrians. Accepting a few refugees - or even tens of thousands of refugees - is not going to make any meaningful difference. It's gesture politics at its worst.

    The British government has got this right - we should be giving generous aid to help the people on the ground. And we are."

    I could do a quiz, guess who wrote in response:

    "Your convoluted thinking to try and make this into something bad for Farage is a sight to behold. You are utterly wrong with this because you view immigration in simple black and white terms - just as you view UKIP in the same way."

    And who wrote:

    "Surely it's more racist to favour a European protectionist superstate with free movement of workers while requiring visas and controls for more talented people from Africa and Asia?"

    If people have been persuaded by your arguments, then surely you should be pleased, rather than condemning them for it.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    David Cameron had an excellent plan for helping those most at need by taking them directly from the camps and bringing them to Britain. It should have been done on a massive scale.

    Errr... I may have spotted a flaw with your plan.
    Yes there was a flaw. The fact that the rest of Europe and Germany in particular did not support it and instead simply encouraged anyone who could make the arduous journey to walk to safety instead.
    If we drill down into practicalities, aren't you really saying that we should have done Merkel's Turkey deal much earlier?
    What we should have done is treated the situation seriously and embarked on a massive airlift (or truck and train lift if necessary) of the old, the young and the unwell into European countries whilst holding firm against allowing those who were able to be looked after in camps making their own way into Europe.

    It would have taken large amounts of money - but the EU utterly failed to step forward at the right time for that and only the UK and the US were putting anything like serious amounts into the camps. And it would also have taken facing down the anti-immigrant lobby and insisting that we would bring those most in need into our country.

    Instead the EU - or the bits of it that were actually pulling the strings - managed to make a complete hash of it, not of out malice or lack of compassion but out of sheer incompetence .
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    rcs1000 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Jonathan said:

    welshowl said:

    Jonathan said:

    No country is more constrained by its history than Britain . Discuss.

    Germany. Case closed. They hugely constrain themselves, or try to be seen to at the least.

    In fairness they try to be exemplary, and generally are. And when they are not I’m sure it’s cock up not conspiracy.
    Modern Germany is liberated from its history . Essentially it has to operate if the world began in 1990.
    That’s not a country liberated by its history. It’s one very deeply constrained by it, if it has to pretend that it is less than 30 years old.
    I'm not sure that's true. Everything roughly Germany does is progress and better than the past. That's quite a liberating thing.

    Whereas Britain is haunted by the ghosts of the greatest generation. It impacts and constrains the left (NHS) and the right (Churchill). We are the Calum Best and Julian Lennon of Europe.

    Hmm -apart from being wedded to late 20th century tech and ideas. The industry 4.0 is an attempt at a reboot but they have failed to create any digital output anything like apple, amazon or even Sky.

    Meanwhile they have hamstrung themsleves with expensive but generally useless green electricity with no nuclear and of course the virtue signalling nonsense of death of a culture by migrant invasion.
    That's not true: the fourth largest software company in the world (behind Microsoft, IBM, and Oracle) is SAP.

    It's utterly dominant as the "operating system" of large companies. Unilever, Shell, and pretty much company in the world runs on SAP.
    indeed. My girlfriend works for it, Very dominant :)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:



    Meeks contra mundum.

    Cameron had few fans on here but that was one of his policies which had widespread support - I recall digging out the figures showing the UK was spending more on camps for Syrian refugees than the rest of the EU added together.

    In December 2013 I wrote:

    "I'm with the hardline UKIPpers on the subject of Syria (and I'm generally pro-immigration). There are 9 million displaced Syrians. Accepting a few refugees - or even tens of thousands of refugees - is not going to make any meaningful difference. It's gesture politics at its worst.

    The British government has got this right - we should be giving generous aid to help the people on the ground. And we are."

    I could do a quiz, guess who wrote in response:

    "Your convoluted thinking to try and make this into something bad for Farage is a sight to behold. You are utterly wrong with this because you view immigration in simple black and white terms - just as you view UKIP in the same way."

    And who wrote:

    "Surely it's more racist to favour a European protectionist superstate with free movement of workers while requiring visas and controls for more talented people from Africa and Asia?"

    If people have been persuaded by your arguments, then surely you should be pleased, rather than condemning them for it.
    In three years time, therefore, you will be bitterly repenting supporting Brexit.

    In the meantime, white South Africans will just need to do the best they can.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540



    Meeks contra mundum.

    Cameron had few fans on here but that was one of his policies which had widespread support - I recall digging out the figures showing the UK was spending more on camps for Syrian refugees than the rest of the EU added together.

    I could do a quiz, guess who wrote in response:

    "Your convoluted thinking to try and make this into something bad for Farage is a sight to behold. You are utterly wrong with this because you view immigration in simple black and white terms - just as you view UKIP in the same way."

    And who wrote:

    "Surely it's more racist to favour a European protectionist superstate with free movement of workers while requiring visas and controls for more talented people from Africa and Asia?"

    No idea - do enlighten us......

    But the posts you quote do not appear to be directly criticising Cameron's policy - just (as usual) going off at a tangent.
This discussion has been closed.