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  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sandpit said:

    Either he’s upset a huge chunk of people or that poll is a massive outlier.
    Or the French are fickle and were happy to back an Outsider before but don't see him as such now.

    Reminiscent of the bursting of the Cleggasm bubble.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    rcs1000 said:

    An interesting piece on the presumptive Democrat Senate nominee in Texas

    How Beto O’Rourke Explains America

    https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/28/16898726/beto-orourke-ted-cruz-texas-senate-race-2018-midterm-elections

    He sounds a very long shot, bu I do really like this wuote:

    "“I may not be the right candidate for you, to be honest,” O’Rourke said. “You may prefer someone else, and that’s the way our democracy should work.”

    I'm a sucker for civilised politics and anyone who talks like that is halfway to winning me over.
    It was this bit that struck me:
    Texas is one of 12 states where if you are arrested for nonviolent drug crime, we also take your driver’s license away. And so how do you get to work, how do you finish your education, how do you take care of your family? And what are your options then?”...

    In was unaware of this particular bit of cruelty in the dystopian US criminal justice system.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Thompson, or just indicative of his manner of election. His principal opponents were the far right, the far left, and a man who should've walked away because he was dodgy but decided to have a go anyway.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517



    The chances are whatever we do will be seen with hindsight as being wrong.

    That's a very good post about the Kurds (snipped for length), and that last point is especially right. I now regret the Iraq intervention, but I think it's perfectly possible that non-intervention would have led to things that would have made us think it, too, was a disaster. he Syrian decision wen the other way, and although I think that was correct, IMO none of us can honestly say that we're sure it was right or wrong.
    Yes. But it's why we should have guiding principles that are known by the rest of the world, and which matter to us. Too often, the messages 'we' send out are conflicted. And that goes for Jezza and his mates as much as it does for (say) Thatcher and Pinochet.

    If we act according to guiding principles, then our actions, even if wrong, are based in substance.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    edited March 2018
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    The person requirement for politicians is very different from that of a.military officer, I suspect. The politician's job is to reconcile competing interest groups, while making it look like they have a, coherent policy and are in charge. The soldier ultimately does what he's told and expects others to do likewise.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    What about that Colossus of the political stage, ex-Jock Guard IDS?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of American politics, here is the video from the presumptive Democratic nominee for the West Virginia 3rd Congressional district.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqsa0c8lHv0

    This is a district where Trump got 80% of the vote, but where Ojeda is leading in the polling.

    One amusing point... "these are not big houses...".
    In the U.K., they'd be fairly big houses.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    OP and Corbyn -- what is the Kremlinology of Corbyn's adopting more traditional LOTO tactics in parliament? Who is he taking advice from now, that he wasn't before?

    Interesting question! It does suggest less influence for Milne - but more for who?? Starmer?
    Someone has certainly got to him in the last couple of weeks at PMQs. It’s a noticable change, rather like when he got dragged to the tailor a year or so ago. Starmer, is a very likely candidate, especially given the focus on Brexit.

    That said, he chose the one issue that the polling suggests people want the politicians to be adults about, rather than go out of their way to score partisan points, so maybe it was Watson behind it - before his own little local difficulties last week.

    Corbyn’s reaction to the PM’s speech yesterday made it quite obvious that neither he nor any of his 15 staff actually watched it in detail. A point that wasn’t actually raised yesterday but has been noted in the past, is that it would be much better to see these set piece speeches by senior ministers made in Parliament.
    Not sure actually. The audience here is the 27 leaders of the EU countries and the Commission negotiators. A thoughtful and important foreign policy speech needs to be made on a considered way - the bear pit in the Commons is not conducive to that
    The bear pit is exactly the right place. The ability to challenge and ask questions is what distinguishes our democracy from the bureaucracy. Ultimately it leads to better policy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Unless the Tories win an overall majority at the next general election Corbyn could be Labour leader for the next decade and quite possibly PM for half of that period.

    He is unlikely to get the Tories below 40% while he is leader but if he gets Labour to 42% that does not matter as he will have enough seats to do a deal with the SNP, Plaid, the Greens etc to get him to No 10.

    Hence he is focused still on mobilising the left behind him and on Brexit taking a middle ground position, leaving the single market and ending free movement while staying in a Customs Union which enough working class Labour Leave voters and centrist urban Labour Remainers can live with
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    Another 'win' for the Ruth Davidson party. The LDs will be envious of such hot bar chart action.

    https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/969565712128860161

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    What about that Colossus of the political stage, ex-Jock Guard IDS?
    Quite understandably, I had forgotten about him. The Crossmaglen sniper could have done the Conservative Party and the nation a huge favour...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    edited March 2018



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.

    Merkel's policy wasn't out of kindness to refugees. One of her very few principles is no borders in Europe. She wasn't prepared to control the borders with her neighbouring countries and force refugees back to those countries. This had a reverse domino.effect as neighbouring counties simply passed the refugees along. They didn't have to stop refugees who would become their problem, as they knew Germany would take them
  • TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    What about that Colossus of the political stage, ex-Jock Guard IDS?
    Ex-Labour MP Eric Joyce and current Lib Dem MSP Mike Rumbles were both Majors in the Royal Army Educational Corps.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited March 2018
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    What about that Colossus of the political stage, ex-Jock Guard IDS?
    Quite understandably, I had forgotten about him. The Crossmaglen sniper could have done the Conservative Party and the nation a huge favour...
    He did quite enough. Not quite brothers in arms of you. We often had Navy attached and didn't wish them dead.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Pascal Lamy’s select committee evidence is well worth listening to. Very detailed on substance and authoritative on political realities of trade.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09w4w9w/select-committees-exiting-the-eu-committee
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Harry Truman was, I think, a failed haberdasher.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    edited March 2018

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    What about that Colossus of the political stage, ex-Jock Guard IDS?
    Ex-Labour MP Eric Joyce and current Lib Dem MSP Mike Rumbles were both Majors in the Royal Army Educational Corps.
    How could we forget the aforementioned 'Colonel' Ruth? Keith Brown, the SNP cabinet bod, is an ex marine & Falklands veteran.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    By supporting a customs union, Corbyn has sacrificed his principles on the EU for political expediency.

    If he loses the vote on a customs union he will have damaged his 'authenticity' but failed to show he is a political operator.

    So customs union is a must win vote for Corbyn.

    In my view he would have been better in the long term to stick with his long held views on the EU and kept his integrity.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Toms said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Harry Truman was, I think, a failed haberdasher.
    Just a dasher then.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.
    (Snip)
    https://www.ft.com/content/65a3e064-2120-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34636312

    + more
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Toms said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Harry Truman was, I think, a failed haberdasher.
    He had served in the army in WW1 in France as a Captain - having risen from an enlisted soldier and inn spite of being effectively blind in one eye (He failed his first eye tst and passed the second time by memorising the chart). He was too old by the time WW2 came around.

    He was to my mind the best US president of the 20th century.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    Toms said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Harry Truman was, I think, a failed haberdasher.
    Just a dasher then.
    Well, he was famous for his brisk constitutional walks, with the press following in his wake.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    What about that Colossus of the political stage, ex-Jock Guard IDS?
    Ex-Labour MP Eric Joyce and current Lib Dem MSP Mike Rumbles were both Majors in the Royal Army Educational Corps.
    Pat Mercer was Colonel in the Sherwood Foresters. But perhaps not a good example given his career in politics.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    Toms said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Harry Truman was, I think, a failed haberdasher.
    He had served in the army in WW1 in France as a Captain - having risen from an enlisted soldier and inn spite of being effectively blind in one eye (He failed his first eye tst and passed the second time by memorising the chart). He was too old by the time WW2 came around.

    He was to my mind the best US president of the 20th century.
    It's a a hard call, but I probably agree.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.

    Merkel's policy wasn't out of kindness to refugees. One of her very few principles is no borders in Europe. She wasn't prepared to control the borders with her neighbouring countries and force refugees back to those countries. This had a reverse domino.effect as neighbouring counties simply passed the refugees along. They didn't have to stop refugees who would become their problem, as they knew Germany would take them
    The UK started working to help the refugees in the camps around Syria long before the rest of the EU. By the time the migrant crisis really blew up they had spent more money in the refugee camps than the whole of the rest of the EU combined. - somewhere around a billion pounds. The only other country making a similar (or actually better) effort was the US.

    Merkel tore up the Dublin 2 agreements and then castigated Hungary in particular when it tried to follow the EU rules and process the migrants rather than just letting them sail through. She was a disgrace.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone used them but who knows if him , the other players or all of them. We should keep our big noses out of other peoples business, it is why the UK is hated so much.

    It's a shame that someone who wants self-determination and independence for his own country is so keen to see others live under a tyrant. For instance, I'd have thought you would have supported Kurdish calls for an independent state?
    Absolutely , I don't think anyone should live under tyrants , but these people vote for the tyrant's and if they don't they are replaced by another one. Why do UK like some tyrants but not others. Whey are UK , NATO , etc turning a blind eye when Turkey knocks the crap out of the Kurds but will happily bomb others who do similar. UK nearly always picks the wrong side, they prop up and support the tyrants and then fund other tyrants to topple them and continue the cycle. Our government has blood on its hands regarding tyrants in that whole region.
    "Why do UK like some tyrants but not others"

    Yes, and you'll have seen posts in the past lamenting (say) the way we did not castigate Sadaam when he used chemical weapons on his own people - a hideous decision that has helped lead to where we are today.

    But that does not mean we should continue making the same mistakes. (*)

    And the people do not vote for the tyrants, at least not in a free and fair way. Hence why they're tyrants.

    (*) Sadly this may mean we'll new, totally original mistakes.
    The problem of supporting tyrants, because they are keeping the lid on the real headcases such as ISIS, is that when they do fall, it leads to a failed state.

    We have seen this time and time again in our foreign interventions in developing countries over the last half century. It is the old colonial mentality of some peoples being treated as unsuitable to democracy and self government.
    Re your last point, I think that is too facile a view. Countries with a credal culture, where it is believed that laws are or should be God-given, find it very difficult to have democracy. How can you change God’s laws? How can you legitimately oppose God? If the laws are based on creed, how do religious minorities fit in? Indeed why would they want to obey laws based on a religion they do not share? It’s not a question of the people not being ready. It’s more whether you have the habits of thinking and the behaviour it leads to which allow democracy to develop and flourish.

    The West’s mistake was to think that all you needed was to create the institutions of a democracy without these more fundamental questions being addressed. And that is something for the societies themselves to do, not outsiders.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    edited March 2018
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Paddy Ashdown was the last Party Leader who saw active service. Before that I would reckon Edward Heath, and before that MacMillan (wounded on the Somme as I recall). Eden, Churchill and Attlee all had active WW1 service too.

    As a general rule, I agree. Soldiers, and tycoons like Trump, do not make very good politicians. Democracy is a different skill set.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Paddy Ashdown was the last Party Leader who saw active service. Before that I would reckon Edward Heath, and before that MacMillan (wounded on the Somme as I recall). Eden, Churchill and Attlee all had active WW1 service too.

    As a general rule, I agree. Soldiers, and tycoons like Trump, do not make very good politicians. Democracy is a different skill set.
    Callaghan (Naval Lieutenant).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited March 2018
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Paddy Ashdown was the last Party Leader who saw active service. Before that I would reckon Edward Heath, and before that MacMillan (wounded on the Somme as I recall. Eden, Churchill and Attlee all had active WW1 service too.

    As a general rule, I agree. Soldiers, and tycoons like Trump, do not make very good politicians. Democracy is a different skill set.
    William Whitelaw won the Military Coss. He was a good politician.

    I don’t think you can make such a generalisation about either soldiers or businessmen.

    It is probably fairer to say that success as one does not automatically translate into success in another career. But if the person uses the skills they have learnt in one field thoughtfully and is prepared to learn new ones, then I think they can bring something valuable to their new role.

    And you need to make a distinction between those who are backbenchers and those who become Ministers. In the latter case being able to manage people and implement detail or get others to do it for you matter far more than when you are a backbencher, when getting noticed is probably far more important.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Paddy Ashdown was the last Party Leader who saw active service. Before that I would reckon Edward Heath, and before that MacMillan (wounded on the Somme as I recall. Eden, Churchill and Attlee all had active WW1 service too.

    As a general rule, I agree. Soldiers, and tycoons like Trump, do not make very good politicians. Democracy is a different skill set.
    William Whitelaw won the Military Coss. He was a good politician.

    I don’t think you can make such a generalisation about eother soldiers or businessmen.

    It is probably fairer to say that success as one does not automatically translate into success in another career. But if the person uses the skills they have learnt in one field thoughtfully and is prepared to learn new ones, then I think they can bring something valuable to their new role.

    And you need to make a distinction between those who are backbenchers and those who become Ministers. In the latter case being able to manage people and implement detail or get others to do it for you matter far more than when you are a backbencher, when getting noticed is probably far more important.
    Denis Healey was a beach controller/leader at Anzio iirc. I think he said after dealing with that nothing in politics could phase him.

    Obviously he wasn't leader, but deputy. But certainly in the list of people who probably should have been prime minister.

    Roy Jenkins was a code breaker at Bletchley according to wikipedia.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.

    Merkel's policy wasn't out of kindness to refugees. One of her very few principles is no borders in Europe. She wasn't prepared to control the borders with her neighbouring countries and force refugees back to those countries. This had a reverse domino.effect as neighbouring counties simply passed the refugees along. They didn't have to stop refugees who would become their problem, as they knew Germany would take them
    The UK started working to help the refugees in the camps around Syria long before the rest of the EU. By the time the migrant crisis really blew up they had spent more money in the refugee camps than the whole of the rest of the EU combined. - somewhere around a billion pounds. The only other country making a similar (or actually better) effort was the US.

    Merkel tore up the Dublin 2 agreements and then castigated Hungary in particular when it tried to follow the EU rules and process the migrants rather than just letting them sail through. She was a disgrace.
    I suspect Merkel’s actions at that time had more to do with the referendum result than she ever anticipated. FoM within a defined area was crucially dependant on having a strong external border around that area. By tearing up the latter she made it harder for those in Britain arguing for the benefits of the former.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Paddy Ashdown was the last Party Leader who saw active service. Before that I would reckon Edward Heath, and before that MacMillan (wounded on the Somme as I recall. Eden, Churchill and Attlee all had active WW1 service too.

    As a general rule, I agree. Soldiers, and tycoons like Trump, do not make very good politicians. Democracy is a different skill set.
    William Whitelaw won the Military Coss. He was a good politician.

    I don’t think you can make such a generalisation about eother soldiers or businessmen.

    It is probably fairer to say that success as one does not automatically translate into success in another career. But if the person uses the skills they have learnt in one field thoughtfully and is prepared to learn new ones, then I think they can bring something valuable to their new role.

    And you need to make a distinction between those who are backbenchers and those who become Ministers. In the latter case being able to manage people and implement detail or get others to do it for you matter far more than when you are a backbencher, when getting noticed is probably far more important.
    Attlee (my grandfather was a Private in the South Lancs with him) was a very skilled chair and administrator. Famously charisma free, but highly competent at delivery, something modern politicians seem to fail on. He was really a social worker turned accidental soldier, but I think his wartime service was key to him wanting Churchill as PM in 1940, and in the effectiveness of the wartime coalition.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.
    (Snip)
    https://www.ft.com/content/65a3e064-2120-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34636312

    + more
    Josias & @Richard_Tyndall, thanks. Shows the stuff you don't hear about is often the most effective.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263



    Pat Mercer was Colonel in the Sherwood Foresters. But perhaps not a good example given his career in politics.

    It was a very central thing for him, much more than being a Tory MP. We became instant friends because he used to be my cousin's ADC, and I defended him during his later troubles - I felt he was naive about politics rather than ill-intentioned, and think he'd probably agree. The thing is that military careers are so intense that they define you in a way that a career as a IT manager or a bond trader really don't, and soldiers find it hard to adjust to the slippery, freewheeling world of politics.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.
    (Snip)
    https://www.ft.com/content/65a3e064-2120-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34636312

    + more
    Josias & @Richard_Tyndall, thanks. Shows the stuff you don't hear about is often the most effective.
    Yeah there's lots of things that go on that nobody hears anything about. I don't know what they are though.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.

    Merkel's policy wasn't out of kindness to refugees. One of her very few principles is no borders in Europe. She wasn't prepared to control the borders with her neighbouring countries and force refugees back to those countries. This had a reverse domino.effect as neighbouring counties simply passed the refugees along. They didn't have to stop refugees who would become their problem, as they knew Germany would take them
    The UK started working to help the refugees in the camps around Syria long before the rest of the EU. By the time the migrant crisis really blew up they had spent more money in the refugee camps than the whole of the rest of the EU combined. - somewhere around a billion pounds. The only other country making a similar (or actually better) effort was the US.

    Merkel tore up the Dublin 2 agreements and then castigated Hungary in particular when it tried to follow the EU rules and process the migrants rather than just letting them sail through. She was a disgrace.
    I suspect Merkel’s actions at that time had more to do with the referendum result than she ever anticipated. FoM within a defined area was crucially dependant on having a strong external border around that area. By tearing up the latter she made it harder for those in Britain arguing for the benefits of the former.
    +1

    I’m not sure who is more culpable, Cameron, Merkel or the EU.

    I don’t think history will be kind to any of them.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:



    What about that Colossus of the political stage, ex-Jock Guard IDS?

    Quite understandably, I had forgotten about him. The Crossmaglen sniper could have done the Conservative Party and the nation a huge favour...
    Yuck. Even as a joke, that's in terrible taste.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846



    Pat Mercer was Colonel in the Sherwood Foresters. But perhaps not a good example given his career in politics.

    It was a very central thing for him, much more than being a Tory MP. We became instant friends because he used to be my cousin's ADC, and I defended him during his later troubles - I felt he was naive about politics rather than ill-intentioned, and think he'd probably agree. The thing is that military careers are so intense that they define you in a way that a career as a IT manager or a bond trader really don't, and soldiers find it hard to adjust to the slippery, freewheeling world of politics.
    I was a friend of Patrick's prior to him being elected but felt politics really did change him for the worse. I hope it was just temporary but it certainly added to my cynicism about politics in general.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    Sandpit said:

    Either he’s upset a huge chunk of people or that poll is a massive outlier.
    Possibly it is. There was another poll taken at the same time which showed him having a big positive bounce (though still net negative). Puzzling stuff.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:



    What about that Colossus of the political stage, ex-Jock Guard IDS?

    Quite understandably, I had forgotten about him. The Crossmaglen sniper could have done the Conservative Party and the nation a huge favour...
    Yuck. Even as a joke, that's in terrible taste.
    Well said.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.
    (Snip)
    https://www.ft.com/content/65a3e064-2120-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34636312

    + more
    Josias & @Richard_Tyndall, thanks. Shows the stuff you don't hear about is often the most effective.
    Yeah there's lots of things that go on that nobody hears anything about. I don't know what they are though.
    On Aid specifically. If the UK government's controversial commitment is delivering results, they could shout about it, rather than keeping it quiet and hoping no-one notices.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.
    Yes. Where it mattered - on the ground in neighbouring countries - second only to the US and for quite a while more than the rest of the EU combined. We also said we’d take vulnerable refugees to the U.K. - unlike the fit and able Merkel effectively incentivised along with their people smuggler exploiters.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    Cyclefree said:

    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.

    Merkel's policy wasn't out of kindness to refugees. One of her very few principles is no borders in Europe. She wasn't prepared to control the borders with her neighbouring countries and force refugees back to those countries. This had a reverse domino.effect as neighbouring counties simply passed the refugees along. They didn't have to stop refugees who would become their problem, as they knew Germany would take them
    The UK started working to help the refugees in the camps around Syria long before the rest of the EU. By the time the migrant crisis really blew up they had spent more money in the refugee camps than the whole of the rest of the EU combined. - somewhere around a billion pounds. The only other country making a similar (or actually better) effort was the US.

    Merkel tore up the Dublin 2 agreements and then castigated Hungary in particular when it tried to follow the EU rules and process the migrants rather than just letting them sail through. She was a disgrace.
    I suspect Merkel’s actions at that time had more to do with the referendum result than she ever anticipated. FoM within a defined area was crucially dependant on having a strong external border around that area. By tearing up the latter she made it harder for those in Britain arguing for the benefits of the former.
    +1

    I’m not sure who is more culpable, Cameron, Merkel or the EU.

    I don’t think history will be kind to any of them.
    It was an unholy triumvirate for sure. Leave's Dream Ticket....
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.
    (Snip)
    https://www.ft.com/content/65a3e064-2120-11e7-a454-ab04428977f9
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34636312

    + more
    Josias & @Richard_Tyndall, thanks. Shows the stuff you don't hear about is often the most effective.
    Yeah there's lots of things that go on that nobody hears anything about. I don't know what they are though.
    On Aid specifically. If the UK government's controversial commitment is delivering results, they could shout about it, rather than keeping it quiet and hoping no-one notices.
    I agree. I also just went to look at the US Foreign Aid commitments. Excluding military aid they are spending over £50 billion a year on foreign aid - the vast majority of it going via NGOs. It totals just over 1% of the US budget. I have not yet heard Trump say much about it and it seems to be relatively uncontroversial. I do think that the some of those politicians attacking the UK aid budget could look across to the US for some lessons.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of American politics, here is the video from the presumptive Democratic nominee for the West Virginia 3rd Congressional district.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqsa0c8lHv0

    This is a district where Trump got 80% of the vote, but where Ojeda is leading in the polling.

    Interesting. I can see that playing well in Appalachia.
    Campaigning as Ojeda, blink and you’d miss “Democrat”
    He is overtly a blue collar trade unionist from Middle America, against the company bosses and their lobbyists. He doesn't stress social issues and clearly bleeds patriotism. He is in many ways a throwback to the Democratic parties roots. I suspect his appeal in other States would be less, but West Virginia has been screwed for years. I like his views on Trump (who he voted for!) in the politico article.

    "He regrets his vote for Trump.

    “Sure do,” he said.

    Because?

    “Because he hasn’t done shit,” he said. “It’s been a friggin’ circus for a solid year.” Nothing’s changed. So many people in southern West Virginia are still poor and need jobs. The opioid epidemic rages unabated. “All he’s done,” Ojeda said, “is shown that he’s taking care of the daggone people he’s supposed to be getting rid of.”

    One to watch, when the same penny drops with other Blue Collar Trump voters, change is gona come. I am not sure who his UK equivalent is.
    David Miliband
    The recent retread experiment failed with Labour Party membership, although he could try in Blair's new centrist party. Although too many people remember how the SPD rose and declined to risk joining. This time, any floor crossers will have Momentum activists to fight against in the constituencies.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eye, interesting how often people cite the SPD but not UKIP (ok, not many MPs but they've had a huge impact) or En Marche.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960
    edited March 2018

    On topic, an ineresing header by David, as usual. The PS is thought-provoking. I think that the leadership have decided Labour has a real shot at winning and need to make the compromises and policy specifics to make that viable, while Lansman, who even more is the classic insurgent than Corbyn, has not got the memo.

    Whether putting down a concrete marker on Brecit was indeed the right thing to do tactically is interesting too (I agree with it in substance, but I'm looking at it tactically here). The polling isn't great, nor were the vox pops - Brexiteers are annoyed, and Remainers are meh. But I'm not sure that being indefinitely vague was an option for much longer, and given that the Brexit outcome is likely to be an uncomfortable fudge, it's necessary to have an answer to "But what would you do?" We're all clear that a customs union would mean "membership minus" rather than Canada plus, but if Canada plus isn't on offer (and I don't think it is) then the alternatives may be significantly worse.

    He should have taken his time, sat with his team, digested what May had to say, and made a measured response as to what he thought sensible - and what he did not.

    Although he would still be at severe risk of being categorised as sat on the wrong side of the negotiating table for Brexit. Teaming up with the EU was a BAD look.....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Good news, the amendment is basically dead now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited March 2018
    geoffw said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Paddy Ashdown was the last Party Leader who saw active service. Before that I would reckon Edward Heath, and before that MacMillan (wounded on the Somme as I recall). Eden, Churchill and Attlee all had active WW1 service too.

    As a general rule, I agree. Soldiers, and tycoons like Trump, do not make very good politicians. Democracy is a different skill set.
    Callaghan (Naval Lieutenant).
    I thought Callaghan was in a supporting role, rather than active. I am not an expert and I could be wrong but my understanding is he was never involved in any action. That is not in any way to denigrate his service, overlook the fact that when he volunteered he doubtless fully expected a combat role or to forget that such roles are vital to success in wartime.

    If we're talking about leaders of the opposition here as well, shouldn't we at least mention John Kerry? (Edit - and arguably McCain as well.)
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880

    The thing is that military careers are so intense that they define you in a way that a career as a IT manager or a bond trader really don't, and soldiers find it hard to adjust to the slippery, freewheeling world of politics.

    This is a very good and insightful point. In the military you trust your life, without question and hesitation, to those around you. Even if you don't personally like them the absolute nature of that trust is there. This it, seems to me, is the exact opposite of politics.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited March 2018

    I agree. I also just went to look at the US Foreign Aid commitments. Excluding military aid they are spending over £50 billion a year on foreign aid - the vast majority of it going via NGOs. It totals just over 1% of the US budget. I have not yet heard Trump say much about it and it seems to be relatively uncontroversial.

    It's not that popular, but rarely an issue that gets much traction. Partly that's because it's split between USAID / State department, and it's the former figure tends to get looked at. On top of that it's quite a small figure relative to their huge economy (about a third of what the UK spends in %GDP), which tends to shut down debate fairly quickly.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    From Shakespeare's book on the Norway campaign and debate: There were sixty-two government backbenchers on active service in the army, with a further sixteen in the RAF, and seven in the navy.

    Shakespeare, Nicholas. Six Minutes in May: How Churchill Unexpectedly Became Prime Minister

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited March 2018

    FF43 said:



    If Merkel and the rest of the EU had devoted as much effort to the refugees as the US and UK did in the first place a substantial part of the crisis could have been avoided. History will judge her harshly.

    The UK and US devoted ANY effort to refugees? I am not trying to score points. I am simply unaware of any effort.
    Yes. Where it mattered - on the ground in neighbouring countries - second only to the US and for quite a while more than the rest of the EU combined. We also said we’d take vulnerable refugees to the U.K. - unlike the fit and able Merkel effectively incentivised along with their people smuggler exploiters.
    Agreed. Apparently the priority from some it seems is not actually to help and support the most vulnerable - women, young children (not 20 year old young men) and the elderly in camps - but young men in their 20s (most of whom were not Syrian) simply because they pushed themselves to the front of the queue and arrived in Europe en masse.

    Up to 80 per cent plus of arrivals in Europe or seeking to arrive here via Libya etc have been single healthy young men. What ever happened to women and children first?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited March 2018

    From Shakespeare's book on the Norway campaign and debate: There were sixty-two government backbenchers on active service in the army, with a further sixteen in the RAF, and seven in the navy.

    Shakespeare, Nicholas. Six Minutes in May: How Churchill Unexpectedly Became Prime Minister

    It seems most unlikely they would have made any difference. For 41 backbenchers to rebel on what was effectively a vote of confidence and 60 more to abstain, even for a government with 420 nominal members is pretty well terminal.

    It is also worth noting that most of the significant forces veterans including a former Admiral of the Fleet (in full uniform) were among the most hostile to Chamberlain.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Leaving entirely aside the moral implications, how would that work in practice? Do immigrants not relinquish or lose citizenship of their country of origin, and does he not realise that what he thinks of as "immigrants" probably includes the children and grandchildren of immigrants, born here and as English as apple pie?

    Also, if they can do sums, they are surely going to hold out for the difference between their future income expectations here and at "home" (discounted for up front payment) and a further sum to compensate for loss of the NHS and other social services? This won't be cheap.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Dura_Ace said:

    The thing is that military careers are so intense that they define you in a way that a career as a IT manager or a bond trader really don't, and soldiers find it hard to adjust to the slippery, freewheeling world of politics.

    This is a very good and insightful point. In the military you trust your life, without question and hesitation, to those around you. Even if you don't personally like them the absolute nature of that trust is there. This it, seems to me, is the exact opposite of politics.
    Not that hard to adapt to life outside HMF in any number of spheres tbh.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    That is not comparing like with like, BA First Class is the equivalent of Virgin Upper Class not BA Business Class
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    Glad you enjoyed it! Hope you made the most of the Club House - and on your way home don’t forget the Revivals lounge - shower, suit press and proper breakfast!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited March 2018

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    Virgin Upper Class is 1,000 times better than BA Business. To compare it with BA First you have to take the cost into consideration. I have not been hugely impressed by BA First for that matter.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    rkrkrk said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
    +1

    Although I probably would struggle to sleep.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Were he Prime Minister, Corbyn would face a similar problem but he’s not and as such, can advocate his own cake-and-eat-it plans without being called out to anything like the same extent.

    Very true. He and Labour are despite justifiable new confidence not in the greatest of positions, but it isn't unfair to note it is more immediately critical for the county when the government is a shambles, even if the opposition would likely face very similar concerns.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    "painful spending restraint" - and there I was thinking we were still borrowing more and more even now.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    rkrkrk said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
    Indeed, you often spend up to 5 times the price of economy for business class and almost ten times for first class tickets.

    Unless your employer is paying or you are a very high earner for most people anything beyond economy is not a consideration

    In any case you still get to the same destination and may as well save the difference and spend it on a nicer hotel at the destination
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    HYUFD said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    That is not comparing like with like, BA First Class is the equivalent of Virgin Upper Class not BA Business Class
    I think the key point is "substantially cheaper"
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    rkrkrk said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
    It is definitely a luxury without doubt.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    rkrkrk said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
    +1
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    Glad to see your flight was OK. Had been wondering. Hope you have a productive trip.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    HYUFD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
    Indeed, you often spend up to 5 times the price of economy for business class and almost ten times for first class tickets.

    Unless your employer is paying or you are a very high earner for most people anything beyond economy is not a consideration

    In any case you still get to the same destination and may as well save the difference and spend it on a nicer hotel at the destination
    I fly long haul about 6 times a year. Every time I do the “what if I flew business?” exercise I think what I could spend the difference on....and fly Economy.....
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Paddy Ashdown was the last Party Leader who saw active service. Before that I would reckon Edward Heath, and before that MacMillan (wounded on the Somme as I recall). Eden, Churchill and Attlee all had active WW1 service too.

    As a general rule, I agree. Soldiers, and tycoons like Trump, do not make very good politicians. Democracy is a different skill set.
    Callaghan (Naval Lieutenant).
    I thought Callaghan was in a supporting role, rather than active. I am not an expert and I could be wrong but my understanding is he was never involved in any action. That is not in any way to denigrate his service, overlook the fact that when he volunteered he doubtless fully expected a combat role or to forget that such roles are vital to success in wartime.

    If we're talking about leaders of the opposition here as well, shouldn't we at least mention John Kerry? (Edit - and arguably McCain as well.)
    Just following on from my comments about Truman earlier. I hadn't realised that when WW2 broke out as a reservist he volunteered to go back on active service. He was turned down partly because of his age but also because Roosevelt wanted all Senators and Congressmen to maintain their seats in Washington, not to go on active service.

    According to Wiki, 23 British MPs were killed on active service in WW2 and one died serving with the Home Guard whilst training
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    TOPPING said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    Virgin Upper Class is 1,000 times better than BA Business. To compare it with BA First you have to take the cost into consideration. I have not been hugely impressed by BA First for that matter.
    None are a patch on Aeroflot Comrade Class - The open air, vintage pilot options and maintenance free schedule ensure they are unsurpassed. Their new street sign navigation system is also unique in modern aviation too ....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
    Indeed, you often spend up to 5 times the price of economy for business class and almost ten times for first class tickets.

    Unless your employer is paying or you are a very high earner for most people anything beyond economy is not a consideration

    In any case you still get to the same destination and may as well save the difference and spend it on a nicer hotel at the destination
    I fly long haul about 6 times a year. Every time I do the “what if I flew business?” exercise I think what I could spend the difference on....and fly Economy.....
    Yes, I personally find economy fine on most airlines. Longhaul nowadays even on economy you get a TV, meal and drink, blanket and pillow. OK you don't get champagne, cordon bleu cooking and your own bed but you may as well wait to the destination for that
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    TOPPING said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    Virgin Upper Class is 1,000 times better than BA Business. To compare it with BA First you have to take the cost into consideration. I have not been hugely impressed by BA First for that matter.
    And Virgin Upper is often cheaper than BA Biz. Never tried BA F.

    As a general rule fly BA if going West from London, and fly someone else if going long haul East. Singapore, Cathay, Emirates and Ethiad are all way better than BA -although to be fair BA are rolling out a load of new 787s which are good if you can find one.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited March 2018

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    With tattoos, and a military background.

    People get excited about ex-mil candidates (PB tories in particular get rock hard about any tory MP with a very average military career) but do any of them ever succeed at the highest level?

    The last major politician with a significant military record was Bush Snr. Are there any others?

    Paddy Ashdown was the last Party Leader who saw active service. Before that I would reckon Edward Heath, and before that MacMillan (wounded on the Somme as I recall). Eden, Churchill and Attlee all had active WW1 service too.

    As a general rule, I agree. Soldiers, and tycoons like Trump, do not make very good politicians. Democracy is a different skill set.
    Callaghan (Naval Lieutenant).
    I thought Callaghan was in a supporting role, rather than active. I am not an expert and I could be wrong but my understanding is he was never involved in any action. That is not in any way to denigrate his service, overlook the fact that when he volunteered he doubtless fully expected a combat role or to forget that such roles are vital to success in wartime.

    If we're talking about leaders of the opposition here as well, shouldn't we at least mention John Kerry? (Edit - and arguably McCain as well.)
    Just following on from my comments about Truman earlier. I hadn't realised that when WW2 broke out as a reservist he volunteered to go back on active service. He was turned down partly because of his age but also because Roosevelt wanted all Senators and Congressmen to maintain their seats in Washington, not to go on active service.

    According to Wiki, 23 British MPs were killed on active service in WW2 and one died serving with the Home Guard whilst training
    He was a good man, Truman. He was also on the whole a very good president which is not always the same thing (both Carter and Hoover were fine human beings and bloody awful presidents). Indeed, I agree you have a strong case that he was the best president of the twentieth century. But I suspect the real reason he volunteered for service is because he had done so well in the First World War with his artillery unit.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    HYUFD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
    Indeed, you often spend up to 5 times the price of economy for business class and almost ten times for first class tickets.

    Unless your employer is paying or you are a very high earner for most people anything beyond economy is not a consideration

    In any case you still get to the same destination and may as well save the difference and spend it on a nicer hotel at the destination
    I fly long haul about 6 times a year. Every time I do the “what if I flew business?” exercise I think what I could spend the difference on....and fly Economy.....
    Premium Economy, if offered, is a pretty good compromise if paying for yourself on an overnight long haul.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of American politics, here is the video from the presumptive Democratic nominee for the West Virginia 3rd Congressional district.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqsa0c8lHv0

    This is a district where Trump got 80% of the vote, but where Ojeda is leading in the polling.

    Fuck, I'd vote for him, in a heartbeat.

    And we pretend a tosser like Corbyn cares?
    Powerful stuff - I know its an advert but he seems a decent bloke
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    It doesn't matter how confident he is. Labour's only chance comes if Brexit actually is a complete cluster f@ck. If it goes ok, he'll be very old either against a revived May or a bright new Tory leader.

    Furthermore, Brexit success will be delivered by trading and selling and good old British fighting spirit. Corbyn's socialist narrative will hardly match with the times post 2020/21.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited March 2018
    JackW said:

    TOPPING said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    Virgin Upper Class is 1,000 times better than BA Business. To compare it with BA First you have to take the cost into consideration. I have not been hugely impressed by BA First for that matter.
    None are a patch on Aeroflot Comrade Class - The open air, vintage pilot options and maintenance free schedule ensure they are unsurpassed. Their new street sign navigation system is also unique in modern aviation too ....
    Is that the one where, after takeoff, the steward appears, and joins you all with a glass or two of vodka to toast the flight before disappearing back behind the curtain. Then when you land, you realise there wasn’t a steward on the flight...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
    Indeed, you often spend up to 5 times the price of economy for business class and almost ten times for first class tickets.

    Unless your employer is paying or you are a very high earner for most people anything beyond economy is not a consideration

    In any case you still get to the same destination and may as well save the difference and spend it on a nicer hotel at the destination
    I fly long haul about 6 times a year. Every time I do the “what if I flew business?” exercise I think what I could spend the difference on....and fly Economy.....
    Premium Economy, if offered, is a pretty good compromise if paying for yourself on an overnight long haul.
    When Virgin flew to Sydney I’d do the run in Upper on miles - once no seats were available and I did a straight through in PE - which is not far off the Business Class of 20 years ago - and found it fine.

    I fear Economy has taken steps backwards in recent years - 10 across on the 777 and the wretched hard seats on the 787. The 380 is a great plane to fly though - and I’m looking forward to my first 350 this spring....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited March 2018
    Floater said:


    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of American politics, here is the video from the presumptive Democratic nominee for the West Virginia 3rd Congressional district.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqsa0c8lHv0

    This is a district where Trump got 80% of the vote, but where Ojeda is leading in the polling.

    Fuck, I'd vote for him, in a heartbeat.

    And we pretend a tosser like Corbyn cares?
    Powerful stuff - I know its an advert but he seems a decent bloke
    Yes, the Democrats need more like him to stand in the rust belt states, small town people who will talk about economic rather than social issues - as astutely noted by @foxy up thread.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    Floater said:


    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of American politics, here is the video from the presumptive Democratic nominee for the West Virginia 3rd Congressional district.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqsa0c8lHv0

    This is a district where Trump got 80% of the vote, but where Ojeda is leading in the polling.

    Fuck, I'd vote for him, in a heartbeat.

    And we pretend a tosser like Corbyn cares?
    Powerful stuff - I know its an advert but he seems a decent bloke
    He's identified all the right problems - jobs, inequality, healthcare, violence. His passion comes through well and he uses his military record without relying on it. He reminded me of the Labour candidate here (whom I would have quite probably voted for but for Corbyn).

    What I didn't notice were any solutions to the problems he identified.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:



    What about that Colossus of the political stage, ex-Jock Guard IDS?

    Quite understandably, I had forgotten about him. The Crossmaglen sniper could have done the Conservative Party and the nation a huge favour...
    Yuck. Even as a joke, that's in terrible taste.
    It would seem that military humour does not transfer too well into politics, either.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:


    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of American politics, here is the video from the presumptive Democratic nominee for the West Virginia 3rd Congressional district.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqsa0c8lHv0

    This is a district where Trump got 80% of the vote, but where Ojeda is leading in the polling.

    Fuck, I'd vote for him, in a heartbeat.

    And we pretend a tosser like Corbyn cares?
    Powerful stuff - I know its an advert but he seems a decent bloke
    He's identified all the right problems - jobs, inequality, healthcare, violence. His passion comes through well and he uses his military record without relying on it. He reminded me of the Labour candidate here (whom I would have quite probably voted for but for Corbyn).

    What I didn't notice were any solutions to the problems he identified.
    The solution when in opposition is simple - keep shouting at the President and ask him what he’s doing for the people he promised to help find jobs. ;)

    More difficult when the President is from your own party though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
    Indeed, you often spend up to 5 times the price of economy for business class and almost ten times for first class tickets.

    Unless your employer is paying or you are a very high earner for most people anything beyond economy is not a consideration

    In any case you still get to the same destination and may as well save the difference and spend it on a nicer hotel at the destination
    I fly long haul about 6 times a year. Every time I do the “what if I flew business?” exercise I think what I could spend the difference on....and fly Economy.....
    Yes, I personally find economy fine on most airlines. Longhaul nowadays even on economy you get a TV, meal and drink, blanket and pillow. OK you don't get champagne, cordon bleu cooking and your own bed but you may as well wait to the destination for that
    Biggest difference is likely the relative risk of DVT...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited March 2018
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:


    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the subject of American politics, here is the video from the presumptive Democratic nominee for the West Virginia 3rd Congressional district.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqsa0c8lHv0

    This is a district where Trump got 80% of the vote, but where Ojeda is leading in the polling.

    Fuck, I'd vote for him, in a heartbeat.

    And we pretend a tosser like Corbyn cares?
    Powerful stuff - I know its an advert but he seems a decent bloke
    He's identified all the right problems - jobs, inequality, healthcare, violence. His passion comes through well and he uses his military record without relying on it. He reminded me of the Labour candidate here (whom I would have quite probably voted for but for Corbyn).

    What I didn't notice were any solutions to the problems he identified.
    The solution when in opposition is simple - keep shouting at the President and ask him what he’s doing for the people he promised to help find jobs. ;)

    More difficult when the President is from your own party though.
    That's the issue, isn't it? Any fool can identify a problem, and Trump and Barnier have conclusively proven that some of them do. But solutions are much harder to come up with.

    Edit - and I have finally found a use for The Sun. One sheet lights a mean fire. Cheaper than firefighters and better for the environment.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:



    What about that Colossus of the political stage, ex-Jock Guard IDS?

    Quite understandably, I had forgotten about him. The Crossmaglen sniper could have done the Conservative Party and the nation a huge favour...
    Yuck. Even as a joke, that's in terrible taste.
    It would seem that military humour does not transfer too well into politics, either.

    Penny Mordaunt gave it a good go a couple of years back, but yes military humour in general doesn’t travel well to those who haven’t been around it and don’t understand the reasons for it.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=hvLcYUXBBuc
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    rkrkrk said:

    So, Virgin Upper Class is a lot better than BA business - and substantially cheaper too. Having just done the HK flight on Virgin having been a very loyal BA custmer up to now, I am shocked at how bad BA is in comparison.

    It may be heresy on this board - but honestly I don’t get the fuss about business class travel. I would have to be extremely rich to even consider paying for it out of my own pocket.

    If work offered me the choice of business or economy plus half the difference in cash I wouldn’t have to think. I find it incredible that so many people claim they can’t sleep in a chair that reclines.
    I cannot sleep on a normal aircraft seat (I’ve never flown business-class). The only exception was when, due to overbooking, I travelled from ATL to LGW via CDG and LHR, and managed to get some kip on the Paris to London flight. I had been awake for about 30 hours by that point.
  • PendduPenddu Posts: 265
    To be fair to Aeroflot, I have flown them biz class a few times and they are very good. They certainly don't skimp on the alcohol (unlike Korean Air). The worst biz class I ever flew with was Philipines Air where they asked me what I would like to drink- red wine - sorry sir we don't have any would you like some beer? Then opened the can, poured half of it into a glass and took the rest away!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Am I the only PBer who hates flying, and does everything he can do to avoid it?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr b,

    "Biggest difference is likely the relative risk of DVT..."

    Aspirin is cheaper.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Video assistant referees are set to be used at this year's World Cup in Russia after football's lawmakers voted to approve the technology.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    According to Wiki, 23 British MPs were killed on active service in WW2 and one died serving with the Home Guard whilst training

    I was recently reading a piece on the Duke of Kent who was killed whilst serving with the RAF in 1942. He was the most senior member of the royal family to die on active service since Prince Maurice of Battenberg was killed at Ypres in October 1914 whilst serving with the King's Royal Rifles.

    Prince Maurice was Queen Victoria's youngest grandchild being the son of her youngest daughter Princess Beatrice. It is ironic that the Queen's youngest grandchild should die at the hands of the forces of her eldest grandchild - Kaiser Wilhelm II.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    I thought it was a precondition of being able to post on PB that one only flew business class?

    On a serious note, Norwegian air, what are they like? I need to fly to west coast of us in a few months and at the moment they are nearly half the cost of BA.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    On the header postscript. A number of people in Labour, including Macdonnell and Milne, owe their positions to Corbyn and will fall with him when he goes. Lansman maybe hopes to create a power base that outlasts Corbyn.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Video assistant referees are set to be used at this year's World Cup in Russia after football's lawmakers voted to approve the technology.

    If it's anything like Russia's military 'videos', then the video will probably end up coming from a bootleg copy of FIFA 2002. ;)

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a18729382/russia-tries-to-pass-off-video-games-as-real-combat-footage-again/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Jessop, I don't hate flying, but I'm not fond of airports. Fortunately, I'm also not bothered about holidays. Not been on a plan for some years.
This discussion has been closed.