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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New Ashcroft poll of London suggests TMay’s Tories should expe

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited March 5 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New Ashcroft poll of London suggests TMay’s Tories should expect a hammering in May

There’s a new 3,060 sample London poll from Lord Ashcroft in the Evening Standard which points to the blue team facing a struggle for the blue team in the capital to hold onto to all the council that it runs . Three are highlighted, Wandsworth, Barnet and Westminster, as being ones which could fall. The Tories could also struggle in SW London where it is defending Kingston and Richmond from the LDs.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 1,963
    No, the big problem for the Tories in London is that the demographics are against them now no-one can afford to buy there.
  • ABLAABLABLAABL Posts: 16
    My take on last week in Brexit-world. The attack on May will now come from the remainers who have the numbers to topple her...

    https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-epilogue
  • HistorianHistorian Posts: 23
    London is not typical of the UK as a whole. It has more poverty, worse housing, more EU immigrants and is more Remainer than anywhere else.

    Of course the Tories will be hammered there. But this has little significance for national politics.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,867
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,544
    edited March 5
    I disagree, 32% of voters in Tory councils approved of their council with 25% disapproving as opposed to 29% of voters in Labour councils approving of their council with 28% disapproving.

    Labour will win the London elections easily but they already hold 20 out of 32 councils there, the Tories only hold 9 and they are all largely Tory strongholds with the exceptions of Wandsworth and Barnet and Kingston upon Thames
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,694
    eek said:

    No, the big problem for the Tories in London is that the demographics are against them now no-one can afford to buy there.

    And anyone who thinks that Jeremy “Smash the City” Corbyn is going to make it any easier for them to buy property is completely deluded.

    Maybe a couple of hard left councils in London will seek to educate those who don’t remember the 1970s.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,427
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 832
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    No, the big problem for the Tories in London is that the demographics are against them now no-one can afford to buy there.

    And anyone who thinks that Jeremy “Smash the City” Corbyn is going to make it any easier for them to buy property is completely deluded.

    Maybe a couple of hard left councils in London will seek to educate those who don’t remember the 1970s.
    You mean when there was plenty of council housing, there were no tuition fees and students received maintenance grants? Those 1970s?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,694
    ABLAABL said:

    My take on last week in Brexit-world. The attack on May will now come from the remainers who have the numbers to topple her...

    https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-epilogue

    Good piece, although I think the Tory whips will keep the amendment from passing - and could even persuade Soubry to drop it by making it an unofficial vote of confidence. Certainly the PM has persuaded a few of the rebels back into the fold with her speech on Friday.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 65,000
    Yup, the dockside hooker treatment is looming for the Tories in London.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,694

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    No, the big problem for the Tories in London is that the demographics are against them now no-one can afford to buy there.

    And anyone who thinks that Jeremy “Smash the City” Corbyn is going to make it any easier for them to buy property is completely deluded.

    Maybe a couple of hard left councils in London will seek to educate those who don’t remember the 1970s.
    You mean when there was plenty of council housing, there were no tuition fees and students received maintenance grants? Those 1970s?
    Or the ‘70s when everyone was on strike, the rubbish piled up in the streets and the dead went unburied. And if you were lucky you’d get a mortgage for three times your annual salary.

    What will Corbyn do to help young people in London buy a house? From what I’ve seen so far prices might fall, but no-one needing a mortgage is going to get more than 50% LTV as the money races out of London. Great for institutional and foreign investors who will buy at the bottom though.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,181
    Scott_P said:
    Almost like we're at the back of the queue
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 21,885
    18.7% is a pretty awful result for the main centre-left party in Italy.

    http://elezioni.interno.gov.it/camera/scrutini/20180304/scrutiniCI
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,181
    edited March 5
    Historian said:

    London is not typical of the UK as a whole. It has more poverty, worse housing, more EU immigrants and is more Remainer than anywhere else.

    Of course the Tories will be hammered there. But this has little significance for national politics.

    It does when you consider that almost 1 in 8 Parliamentary constituencies are in Greater London
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,784
    edited March 5

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    No, the big problem for the Tories in London is that the demographics are against them now no-one can afford to buy there.

    And anyone who thinks that Jeremy “Smash the City” Corbyn is going to make it any easier for them to buy property is completely deluded.

    Maybe a couple of hard left councils in London will seek to educate those who don’t remember the 1970s.
    You mean when there was plenty of council housing, there were no tuition fees and students received maintenance grants? Those 1970s?
    Are we going back to only sending 20-25% of 18 year olds to uni on a full time basis again. That is a bit of a drastic cut, but definitely in the right direction.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,082
    Labour are super-serving London. Perhaps this is to the detriment to votes elsewhere.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,218
    Actually those tables don't look as bad for the Conservatives as one might expect; the 61% 'local Conservatives doing a good job' score for Con voters in the 2014 locals is much the same as the 65% 'local Labour Party doing a good job' score for Lab 2014 voters.

    It's still going to be a terrible night for the Tories in London, of course, but we already knew that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,694
    edited March 5
    Scott_P said:
    Amazing how Remainers treat opening positions by Britain’s opponents as gospel, but our own positions as so impossibly ambitious as to be delusional....

    Four of the top ten (and two of the top three) EU>Non-EU city pairs involve London and the USA, there will be a deal no matter what happens, neither country can afford for there not to be one.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_air_routes
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 21,885
    Jonathan said:

    Labour are super-serving London. Perhaps this is to the detriment to votes elsewhere.

    They could win every seat in about 5 London boroughs.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,181
    FPT on mutual recognition of regulations:

    If countries A and B are EU members and do not have recognition for each other's regulations, how can both agree to recognise the UK's regulations?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,344
    Historian said:

    London is not typical of the UK as a whole. It has more poverty, worse housing, more EU immigrants and is more Remainer than anywhere else.

    Of course the Tories will be hammered there. But this has little significance for national politics.

    I'm all in favour of insouciance under fire, but regarding the capital as insignificant sets a new bar. That said, I've not noticed the swing in London being higher than elsewhere in recent polls.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,694

    FPT on mutual recognition of regulations:

    If countries A and B are EU members and do not have recognition for each other's regulations, how can both agree to recognise the UK's regulations?

    If A and B are both EU members, then they must recognise each other’s regulations as conforming to their own.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,087
    Hm! Just watching the news, all those bust water pipes. Wonder how long before the connection between non repairs and maintenance and the dividends paid out to water companies shareholders is made..
  • HistorianHistorian Posts: 23
    I think William Hague did particularly well in the local elections just before his landslide defeat in the general election.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,688

    Historian said:

    London is not typical of the UK as a whole. It has more poverty, worse housing, more EU immigrants and is more Remainer than anywhere else.

    Of course the Tories will be hammered there. But this has little significance for national politics.

    I'm all in favour of insouciance under fire, but regarding the capital as insignificant sets a new bar. That said, I've not noticed the swing in London being higher than elsewhere in recent polls.
    Portraying Labour as 'the party of London' will help the Tories to hold seats like Mansfield.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,051

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is devastating.

    "when Mrs May appeals for “a comprehensive system of mutual recognition” she is going still further. She is not asking for something that applies within the EU. She is asking for something that even EU Member States do not expect of each other. A “comprehensive system of mutual recognition” is not found within the EU. Mrs May is asking that the UK be treated better than a Member State of the EU."

    But the speech is still seen as a triumph - so I suppose it served its purpose.
    It's garbage. Has the professor not heard of Equivalence? In any case, even in its own terms his argument doesn't work: he jumps from the (correct) observation that mutual recognition within the EU is not absolute to the conclusion that no mutual recognition is therefore possible, a non sequitur which I would hope he would immediately pounce on if committed by one of his students.

    It is remarkable how Brexit addles brains on both sides.
    I think there's a chance he understands it better than you.
    Clearly not, as my post shows.
    Why not be public-spirited then and write a comment on his blog explaining the errors in his post? For the good of his students etc. etc.

    FWIW I don't think your summary of his article is accurate. He is merely saying that TM's position of 'comprehensive system of mutual recognition' is not possible.

    In one of the comments on the article - he makes clear that there is some limited mutual recognition in the Canada deal - so he's not saying 'no mutual recognition is possible'.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 14,243
    Mortimer said:

    Historian said:

    London is not typical of the UK as a whole. It has more poverty, worse housing, more EU immigrants and is more Remainer than anywhere else.

    Of course the Tories will be hammered there. But this has little significance for national politics.

    I'm all in favour of insouciance under fire, but regarding the capital as insignificant sets a new bar. That said, I've not noticed the swing in London being higher than elsewhere in recent polls.
    Portraying Labour as 'the party of London' will help the Tories to hold seats like Mansfield.
    That theory was tested to destruction in 2017. I'd like to not have a repeat of that in 2022.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,082
    Mortimer said:

    Historian said:

    London is not typical of the UK as a whole. It has more poverty, worse housing, more EU immigrants and is more Remainer than anywhere else.

    Of course the Tories will be hammered there. But this has little significance for national politics.

    I'm all in favour of insouciance under fire, but regarding the capital as insignificant sets a new bar. That said, I've not noticed the swing in London being higher than elsewhere in recent polls.
    Portraying Labour as 'the party of London' will help the Tories to hold seats like Mansfield.
    Slippery slope Morty. The Tory tide is going out.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,478
    edited March 5
    Mortimer said:

    Historian said:

    London is not typical of the UK as a whole. It has more poverty, worse housing, more EU immigrants and is more Remainer than anywhere else.

    Of course the Tories will be hammered there. But this has little significance for national politics.

    I'm all in favour of insouciance under fire, but regarding the capital as insignificant sets a new bar. That said, I've not noticed the swing in London being higher than elsewhere in recent polls.
    Portraying Labour as 'the party of London' will help the Tories to hold seats like Mansfield.
    But not win back the 11 former CON seats in the midlands and the North that everybody seems to forget. All were in areas that voted leave yet labour was able to take them in the general election.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,880
    Scott_P said:
    Are they sure about this country being first? I have seen Viagra on sale as an OTC medicine in both Greece and Portugal.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,688
    The golden rule of Brexit proved again....

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,784
    Telegraph

    Dozens of new abuse allegations reported by 26 UK aid charities in past three weeks, Penny Mordaunt says - but regulator keeps them secret
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 9,688

    Mortimer said:

    Historian said:

    London is not typical of the UK as a whole. It has more poverty, worse housing, more EU immigrants and is more Remainer than anywhere else.

    Of course the Tories will be hammered there. But this has little significance for national politics.

    I'm all in favour of insouciance under fire, but regarding the capital as insignificant sets a new bar. That said, I've not noticed the swing in London being higher than elsewhere in recent polls.
    Portraying Labour as 'the party of London' will help the Tories to hold seats like Mansfield.
    But not win back the 11 seats in the midlands and the North that everybody seems to forget. All were in areas that voted leave yet labour was able to take them in the general election.
    It might well, Labour as out of touch, metropolitan and remainer-y won;t play well in those 11 seats.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 14,817
    OchEye said:

    Hm! Just watching the news, all those bust water pipes. Wonder how long before the connection between non repairs and maintenance and the dividends paid out to water companies shareholders is made..

    You are behind the times. Gove already gave a speech about that last week.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 18,485
    Interesting links emerging in the Russia investigation in the USA showing questionable ties to the NRA. Could revulsion over political interference from outside be what finally tips American into accepting gun control?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,738

    Mortimer said:

    Historian said:

    London is not typical of the UK as a whole. It has more poverty, worse housing, more EU immigrants and is more Remainer than anywhere else.

    Of course the Tories will be hammered there. But this has little significance for national politics.

    I'm all in favour of insouciance under fire, but regarding the capital as insignificant sets a new bar. That said, I've not noticed the swing in London being higher than elsewhere in recent polls.
    Portraying Labour as 'the party of London' will help the Tories to hold seats like Mansfield.
    But not win back the 11 seats in the midlands and the North that everybody seems to forget. All were in areas that voted leave yet labour was able to take them in the general election.
    The Tories certainly "should" have won High Peak in 2017. Quite the failure.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 12,964
    Sandpit said:

    FPT on mutual recognition of regulations:

    If countries A and B are EU members and do not have recognition for each other's regulations, how can both agree to recognise the UK's regulations?

    If A and B are both EU members, then they must recognise each other’s regulations as conforming to their own.
    If A and B are both EU members they have the same regulations, that's why.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,218
    rkrkrk said:

    Why not be public-spirited then and write a comment on his blog explaining the errors in his post? For the good of his students etc. etc.

    I'm on an exclusive zero-hours contract with politicalbetting.com!
    rkrkrk said:

    FWIW I don't think your summary of his article is accurate. He is merely saying that TM's position of 'comprehensive system of mutual recognition' is not possible.

    In one of the comments on the article - he makes clear that there is some limited mutual recognition in the Canada deal - so he's not saying 'no mutual recognition is possible'.

    Well, quite, he backtracked there, unsurprisingly.

    If all he means is that we won't get everything we want, then he's right. That doesn't mean that we'll get nothing, or that it's wrong to ask for more than the EU is happy to accept. In the end, it will come down to how 'comprehensive' the 'comprehensive system of mutual recognition' actually is, and what mechanisms will be put in place to manage divergence. My personal guess, as I've said many times both before and after the referendum, is that in practice we won't deviate to any significant degree from EU standards; the debate is really about how to codify this whilst retaining the illusion of sovereignty so beloved of the Ultras.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,535
    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,218

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    You think they might advocate a Mansion Tax or surtax on very high earners?
  • It would be good to hear a bit more about the elections outside London. Looking at the list Trafford and St Albans are a couple that The Cons must be in danger of losing.

    On the other side of the coin, the Cons might be hoping for gains in the W Midlands if they can build on Andy Street's performance last year. Newcastle-Under-Lyme could be one to watch as it is all up.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 17,694

    It would be good to hear a bit more about the elections outside London. Looking at the list Trafford and St Albans are a couple that The Cons must be in danger of losing.

    On the other side of the coin, the Cons might be hoping for gains in the W Midlands if they can build on Andy Street's performance last year. Newcastle-Under-Lyme could be one to watch as it is all up.

    Good point on Newcastle, and Andy Street.

    While the media are all based in London they are going to under-report results elsewhere, it could well be that we Blues gain seats and councils around the country - but the media narrative will be that we lost a couple of boroughs in the capital.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,076

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 65,000

    It would be good to hear a bit more about the elections outside London. Looking at the list Trafford and St Albans are a couple that The Cons must be in danger of losing.

    On the other side of the coin, the Cons might be hoping for gains in the W Midlands if they can build on Andy Street's performance last year. Newcastle-Under-Lyme could be one to watch as it is all up.

    I know I'm biased but the Sheffield results could be interesting.

    1/3 up, the Labour council really are pissing off a lot of people with their tree cutting.

    Lib Dem revival anyone?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,218

    It would be good to hear a bit more about the elections outside London. Looking at the list Trafford and St Albans are a couple that The Cons must be in danger of losing.

    On the other side of the coin, the Cons might be hoping for gains in the W Midlands if they can build on Andy Street's performance last year. Newcastle-Under-Lyme could be one to watch as it is all up.

    I know I'm biased but the Sheffield results could be interesting.

    1/3 up, the Labour council really are pissing off a lot of people with their tree cutting.

    Lib Dem revival anyone?
    Their tree-destruction is completely bonkers. Just imagine the furore in the Guardian if a Conservative council tried to do that.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,076

    It would be good to hear a bit more about the elections outside London. Looking at the list Trafford and St Albans are a couple that The Cons must be in danger of losing.

    On the other side of the coin, the Cons might be hoping for gains in the W Midlands if they can build on Andy Street's performance last year. Newcastle-Under-Lyme could be one to watch as it is all up.

    I would be cautious extrapolating from last May's results. The GE campaign changed everything. Andy Street and the chap on Teesside got in at a sweet spot for the Conservatives.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 23,992
    edited March 5

    Actually those tables don't look as bad for the Conservatives as one might expect; the 61% 'local Conservatives doing a good job' score for Con voters in the 2014 locals is much the same as the 65% 'local Labour Party doing a good job' score for Lab 2014 voters.

    *puts on Canadian accent*

    It's still going to be a terriiiiiiible night for the Tories in London.

    *ends Canadian accent*

    Corrected it for you.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,076
    Isn't it because the British SDP was obliviated years ago?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,930

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,738

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    You think they might advocate a Mansion Tax or surtax on very high earners?
    Someone linked earlier that London has a particularly unequal wealth distribution. The low OO rates, high house prices but relatively young population will do that.
    Therefore I think they are less economically oriented (If you're rich you can afford Corbyn; if you're poor then you don't have much to lose), and more socially oriented voters.
    It's the middle B,C where economic arguments have the most effect I think..
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 14,243
    edited March 5

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,180

    Isn't it because the British SDP was obliviated years ago?
    It isn't true. The only nationwide social democratic party left in the UK is the Lib Dems and they are also doing poorly.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 28,338

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/culture/michelin-restaurants-in-britain-how-will-brexit-impact-uk-fine-dining-1-4839214
  • Some more interesting councils that are all up:

    South Lakeland and Eastleigh - LD defending against Con
    South Cambs and Harrogate - Con defending against LD
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,867
    Sandpit said:

    Four of the top ten (and two of the top three) EU>Non-EU city pairs involve London and the USA, there will be a deal no matter what happens, neither country can afford for there not to be one.

    It doesn't say there will not be a deal.

    It says our deal will be worse than now.

    You won. Suck it up!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 42,483
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Coffee is black or white.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,156

    It would be good to hear a bit more about the elections outside London. Looking at the list Trafford and St Albans are a couple that The Cons must be in danger of losing.

    On the other side of the coin, the Cons might be hoping for gains in the W Midlands if they can build on Andy Street's performance last year. Newcastle-Under-Lyme could be one to watch as it is all up.

    They'll probably hold Trafford and St. Alban's this year, before they go to NOC next year.

    The Conservatives may well pick up seats in Dudley and Walsall, but I don't see any councils changing hands in the West Midlands conurbation.

    The Conservatives should also gain Thurrock and Basildon.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,784
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/owenjones84/status/970670926152060930

    Does the evening standard under George use the gimp for their photo editing?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,156

    Some more interesting councils that are all up:

    South Lakeland and Eastleigh - LD defending against Con
    South Cambs and Harrogate - Con defending against LD

    The Lib Dems massively outperform in Eastleigh local elections.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,930
    MaxPB said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,738

    It would be good to hear a bit more about the elections outside London. Looking at the list Trafford and St Albans are a couple that The Cons must be in danger of losing.

    On the other side of the coin, the Cons might be hoping for gains in the W Midlands if they can build on Andy Street's performance last year. Newcastle-Under-Lyme could be one to watch as it is all up.

    I know I'm biased but the Sheffield results could be interesting.

    1/3 up, the Labour council really are pissing off a lot of people with their tree cutting.

    Lib Dem revival anyone?
    Doubtful. I think Labour will certainly make gains.

    Here is the defence map:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_City_Council_election,_2014
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,218

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Coffee is black or white.

    Why complicate matters with 'white'?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,880

    rkrkrk said:

    Why not be public-spirited then and write a comment on his blog explaining the errors in his post? For the good of his students etc. etc.

    I'm on an exclusive zero-hours contract with politicalbetting.com!
    rkrkrk said:

    FWIW I don't think your summary of his article is accurate. He is merely saying that TM's position of 'comprehensive system of mutual recognition' is not possible.

    In one of the comments on the article - he makes clear that there is some limited mutual recognition in the Canada deal - so he's not saying 'no mutual recognition is possible'.

    Well, quite, he backtracked there, unsurprisingly.

    If all he means is that we won't get everything we want, then he's right. That doesn't mean that we'll get nothing, or that it's wrong to ask for more than the EU is happy to accept. In the end, it will come down to how 'comprehensive' the 'comprehensive system of mutual recognition' actually is, and what mechanisms will be put in place to manage divergence. My personal guess, as I've said many times both before and after the referendum, is that in practice we won't deviate to any significant degree from EU standards; the debate is really about how to codify this whilst retaining the illusion of sovereignty so beloved of the Ultras.
    Surely the point is that if countries A and B are members of the EU then they don't have comprehensive mutual recognition but the same regulation or directive imposed upon them from above which they are obliged to implement? That is what EU law does.

    Once we are not subject to EU any more there will be questions as to whether or not our regulation of financial services, for example, meets the EU standards. If it does then mutual recognition of the decisions and authorisations by the respective authorities is possible. If they start to differ over time then a view would have to be taken as to how material those differences were.

    What I thought May recognised, and I was surprised she went as far as she did, was that a FTA of the sort she is contemplating requires ongoing regulatory convergence going forward and she expressly recognised that not converging in that way might imperil the FTA, at least in that sector, going forward. That seemed to me to be logical but surprising as it could easily be portrayed as a Norway type situation where we either choose to adopt EU regulation or we lose market access.
  • Sean_F said:

    Some more interesting councils that are all up:

    South Lakeland and Eastleigh - LD defending against Con
    South Cambs and Harrogate - Con defending against LD

    The Lib Dems massively outperform in Eastleigh local elections.
    I know but there is a 14k majority in the parliamentary seat for the Cons now. Surely the LDs will lose some wards if not control?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,535
    A few questions on the local elections:

    1) will Brexit fallout alter levels of enthusiasm for voting (on either side)? I can imagine furious Remainers being particularly keen to go out and send a message.

    2) as Labour becomes less a party of the working class, will its turnout in local elections improve?

    3) or, as the Conservatives get steadily more geriatric, will their voter base become keener on turning out for local elections?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 27,784
    edited March 5

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Coffee is black or white.

    I hear in the tredeau household they take it as only coffee-kind.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,738

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Coffee is black or white.

    Why complicate matters with 'white'?
    Depends if you're adding a cream-based liqueur or not.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 23,992
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
    Until fairly recently, nice food was seen in England as being slightly effeminate and a bit too French.

    I can still break out in a cold sweat about "well done" (cremated) beef, and vegetables boiled to death, which my grandparents generation seemed to enjoy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 17,611
    Or because Labour is not a social democrat party under Corbyn.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,156

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
    Until fairly recently, nice food was seen in England as being slightly effeminate and a bit too French.

    I can still break out in a cold sweat about "well done" (cremated) beef, and vegetables boiled to death, which my grandparents generation seemed to enjoy.
    I think there was a general view that vegetables were bad for you, unless they were boiled thoroughly grey.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,487
    edited March 5

    Or because Labour is not a social democrat party under Corbyn.
    That's what Owen Jones is no doubt getting at. The other explanation might be an electoral system that blocks populists like 5Star.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 883

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Coffee is black or white.

    Way-cist!

    Afternoon all. How good would it be to get some local elections polling away from London? Perhaps the Good Lord A is holding it back, but as others have said how about some more coverage elsewhere?

    Eastleigh may be tricky for the LDs but not because of the parliamentary vote - there has been a falling out involving defections over the Local Plan, and I can't imagine that will help cohesive campaigining.

    I think Labour could lose seats in Manchester. They are all up on new boundaries. They can only have one of their weakest candidates miss out to go backwards, and although I don't have info (other than the Lib Dems hoping for a handful) they are fighting on so many bases that I would be surprised if they all win. Could be quite a media story if it's significant.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,432
    AndyJS said:

    18.7% is a pretty awful result for the main centre-left party in Italy.

    http://elezioni.interno.gov.it/camera/scrutini/20180304/scrutiniCI

    But a huge relief for Polly Toynbee that the left held Tuscany :)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,930

    Or because Labour is not a social democrat party under Corbyn.
    Well, quite. I thought it was precisely not being a Blairite social democrat which was Corbyn's main attraction.

    Anyone reading the recent FT article with McDonnell could hardly think that he will be a social democratic Chancellor.

    Jones's question is a good one though: why has social democracy lost its charm? The answers might not, though, be to his tastes, given the sorts of parties voters are turning to.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,218
    DavidL said:

    Surely the point is that if countries A and B are members of the EU then they don't have comprehensive mutual recognition but the same regulation or directive imposed upon them from above which they are obliged to implement? That is what EU law does.

    Once we are not subject to EU any more there will be questions as to whether or not our regulation of financial services, for example, meets the EU standards. If it does then mutual recognition of the decisions and authorisations by the respective authorities is possible. If they start to differ over time then a view would have to be taken as to how material those differences were.

    What I thought May recognised, and I was surprised she went as far as she did, was that a FTA of the sort she is contemplating requires ongoing regulatory convergence going forward and she expressly recognised that not converging in that way might imperil the FTA, at least in that sector, going forward. That seemed to me to be logical but surprising as it could easily be portrayed as a Norway type situation where we either choose to adopt EU regulation or we lose market access.

    The reality is that we will very largely choose to adopt EU regulation, at least for manufactured goods. In fact I think we would do so irrespective of any deal with the EU. Why wouldn't we? Although you can always find absurdities in any set of regulations, the EU rules are for the most part perfectly sensible, we are too small a market for it to be worthwhile manufacturers building models specially for us, and it would be an expensive waste of time to set up an entire bureaucratic structure to create our own versions of the rules. So what I think she is trying to do is square the circle between accepting this reality, and retaining a theoretical right to diverge in order to keep the Ultras quiet. Will she succeed? Dunno. It depends entirely on how much fudge the EU is prepared to smother the issue in.

    Incidentally I thought she made one particularly interesting point on regulation:

    The UK has responsibility for the financial stability of the world’s most significant financial centre, and our taxpayers bear the risk, so it would be unrealistic for us to implement new EU legislation automatically and in its entirety.

    But with UK located banks underwriting around half of the debt and equity issued by EU companies and providing more than £1.1 trillion of cross-border lending to the rest of the EU in 2015 alone, this is a clear example of where only looking at precedent would hurt both the UK and EU economies.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,350
    edited March 5
    Some of this, from 2009, is actually quite good..

    The media is full of speculation about the new European president. Probably within a week the way will be open for the new appointment.

    Sadly the Irish Yes vote to the Lisbon Treaty leaves only the Czech government with any power in the situation. The Czech Republic has suffered grievously from invasions and clearly values its sovereignty. It has rejected the US missile defence system and its desire for independence in foreign policy may well lead to a rejection of the Lisbon Treaty. But, should President Vaclav Klaus allow the treaty to pass, the door will be opened to a new president of Europe.

    The position is a sort of executive head of the government of Europe. He or she is to be “elected” for two-and-half years and would be allowed to seek re-election for a second term. The president is supposed to operate by consensus to ensure “continuity” in European policy-making. Working almost in parallel will be another new position, that of foreign affairs and security representative.

    The European Union has always suffered a serious democratic deficit and the new positions would make the situation even worse. For all the talk of the new leader’s “election,” the situation is more akin to the College of Cardinals electing a new Pope. The 25 heads of government will meet and agree by a majority who the new president will be. Thus, 13 heads of government can elect a president for the entire continent. The European Parliament will have no say, national parliaments will have no say and perish the thought that the people should have any say.

    The creation of the post of president is a triumph for the tenacity of the European long-sighters. The project has always been to create a ... Europe, with ever-limiting powers for national parliaments and an increasingly powerful common foreign and security policy.The proposed European constitution met a swift end when it was rejected in France by people concerned about the marketisation of Europe and the explicit limiting of the public enterprise role of national governments. But the European council of ministers was undeterred. It set about creating the much more innocuous-sounding Lisbon Treaty.

    In reality it is little different from its predecessor. It, too, requires member states to subscribe to a common foreign and defence policy

    ...

    Post-Lisbon, the European president and the foreign and security representative will have enormous and largely unaccountable powers.

    Tony Benn famously described democracy and accountability to a Labour Party conference by advising us to ask three questions of all leaders:

    “From where do you derive your authority? In whose interests to do you deliver it? How do we remove you from office?”

    Wise words indeed.
  • gettingbettergettingbetter Posts: 221
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    No, the big problem for the Tories in London is that the demographics are against them now no-one can afford to buy there.

    And anyone who thinks that Jeremy “Smash the City” Corbyn is going to make it any easier for them to buy property is completely deluded.

    Maybe a couple of hard left councils in London will seek to educate those who don’t remember the 1970s.
    You mean when there was plenty of council housing, there were no tuition fees and students received maintenance grants? Those 1970s?
    Or the ‘70s when everyone was on strike, the rubbish piled up in the streets and the dead went unburied. And if you were lucky you’d get a mortgage for three times your annual salary.

    What will Corbyn do to help young people in London buy a house? From what I’ve seen so far prices might fall, but no-one needing a mortgage is going to get more than 50% LTV as the money races out of London. Great for institutional and foreign investors who will buy at the bottom though.
    Of course the rubbish in the streets and unburied dead were exceptional cases. but the strikes were a problem. There weren't the long many long distance coaches and the timetables were not easy to find. so when trains were on strike you had to hitch hike and could get stuck if dropped off somewhere difficult. the phone boxes didnt usually work so you felt very alone when that happened.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 42,483
    edited March 5
    Mr. F, in medieval times, tomatoes were thought to be bad for you.

    Mr. tpfkar, ha. Next you'll be expecting EU coverage to include views of people outside the Metropolitan bubble ;)

    Edited extra bit: ahem, Elizabethan*
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 14,487
    Cyclefree said:

    Or because Labour is not a social democrat party under Corbyn.
    Well, quite. I thought it was precisely not being a Blairite social democrat which was Corbyn's main attraction.

    Anyone reading the recent FT article with McDonnell could hardly think that he will be a social democratic Chancellor.

    Jones's question is a good one though: why has social democracy lost its charm? The answers might not, though, be to his tastes, given the sorts of parties voters are turning to.
    see thread:

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,880

    A few questions on the local elections:

    1) will Brexit fallout alter levels of enthusiasm for voting (on either side)? I can imagine furious Remainers being particularly keen to go out and send a message.

    2) as Labour becomes less a party of the working class, will its turnout in local elections improve?

    3) or, as the Conservatives get steadily more geriatric, will their voter base become keener on turning out for local elections?

    FWIW:

    1) would these be the same furious remainers who got the Lib Dems, the only party pushing for a second referendum, up to the giddy heights of 7% at the GE last year? I see very little evidence that Brexit is actually a motivation for anyone other than a tiny minority.

    2) Labour stopped being a working class party at least 20 years ago with New Labour. Its problem, like the Democrats in the US, is persuading its traditional supporters that they understand them at all and are worth turning out for.

    3) Probably not more than it does already.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,930

    A few questions on the local elections:

    1) will Brexit fallout alter levels of enthusiasm for voting (on either side)? I can imagine furious Remainers being particularly keen to go out and send a message.

    2) as Labour becomes less a party of the working class, will its turnout in local elections improve?

    3) or, as the Conservatives get steadily more geriatric, will their voter base become keener on turning out for local elections?

    It doesn't matter how furious or not I feel about anything. My vote - either locally or nationally - means nothing any more in my constituency, which is now safe Labour and where Labour are well ensconced at the council level.

    I suppose I could vote Lib Dem as a sort of electoral pity-fuck. Or I could wash my hair that day.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 18,218
    edited March 5

    Or because Labour is not a social democrat party under Corbyn.
    That's what Owen Jones is no doubt getting at. The other explanation might be an electoral system that blocks populists like 5Star.
    Or Theresa May, and/or Brexit.

    I think I'd go for the 'Theresa May' explanation. After all, until May 2017 Labour looked as though it was going down the plughole in a quite spectacular manner.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,427
    edited March 5
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
    Until fairly recently, nice food was seen in England as being slightly effeminate and a bit too French.

    I can still break out in a cold sweat about "well done" (cremated) beef, and vegetables boiled to death, which my grandparents generation seemed to enjoy.
    I think there was a general view that vegetables were bad for you, unless they were boiled thoroughly grey.
    It’s one of the most annoying things about the U.K. that good food is seen as “posh”, as opposed to the simplest and most accessible of life’s enjoyments.

    Still echoes of it on this board with the sneering about London coffee - as if the best we should aspire to is a cup of instant/charred gerbil without accusations of pretentiousness.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 14,243


    The reality is that we will very largely choose to adopt EU regulation, at least for manufactured goods. In fact I think we would do so irrespective of any deal with the EU. Why wouldn't we? Although you can always find absurdities in any set of regulations, the EU rules are for the most part perfectly sensible, we are too small a market for it to be worthwhile manufacturers building models specially for us, and it would be an expensive waste of time to set up an entire bureaucratic structure to create our own versions of the rules. So what I think she is trying to do is square the circle between accepting this reality, and retaining a theoretical right to diverge in order to keep the Ultras quiet. Will she succeed? Dunno. It depends entirely on how much fudge the EU is prepared to smother the issue in.

    Incidentally I thought she made one particularly interesting point on regulation:

    The UK has responsibility for the financial stability of the world’s most significant financial centre, and our taxpayers bear the risk, so it would be unrealistic for us to implement new EU legislation automatically and in its entirety.

    But with UK located banks underwriting around half of the debt and equity issued by EU companies and providing more than £1.1 trillion of cross-border lending to the rest of the EU in 2015 alone, this is a clear example of where only looking at precedent would hurt both the UK and EU economies.

    Banking is where one of my Swiss colleagues pointed out our error. He said the UK government started from the wrong place and should have framed it as "what are you going to give us so your companies and banks don't lose access to London's markets". He said we took a defensive line far too early and let the EU dictate something where the UK holds much more power than they do.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,880
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
    Until fairly recently, nice food was seen in England as being slightly effeminate and a bit too French.

    I can still break out in a cold sweat about "well done" (cremated) beef, and vegetables boiled to death, which my grandparents generation seemed to enjoy.
    I think there was a general view that vegetables were bad for you, unless they were boiled thoroughly grey.
    And then covered in salt to give them some "taste". When I think back to my childhood a depressingly large percentage of vegetables came from tins. Other than soup and baked beans I don't think I have had a vegetable from a tin in 30 odd years, possibly not since I left home.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,880
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
    Such zealotry. Every time a barista asks me now if I want chocolate on my cappuccino I think of you with a twinge of guilt. And then say yes.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,930

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
    Until fairly recently, nice food was seen in England as being slightly effeminate and a bit too French.

    I can still break out in a cold sweat about "well done" (cremated) beef, and vegetables boiled to death, which my grandparents generation seemed to enjoy.
    I think there was a general view that vegetables were bad for you, unless they were boiled thoroughly grey.
    It’s one of the most annoying things about the U.K. that good food is seen as “posh”, as opposed to the simplest and most accessible of life’s enjoyments.

    Still echoes of it on this board with the sneering about London coffee - as if the best we should aspire to is a cup of instant/charred gerbil without accusations of pretentiousness.
    It is all these silly sorts of coffees with all kinds of additions which are the complete opposite of good food or drink, simply made with first class ingredients. Anyone who has tried a really good coffee - which is not hard to make - would recognise the overpriced muck found in places like Starbucks and the rest for what it is - a way of relieving credulous Londoners of their money.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,344
    Cyclefree said:

    Or because Labour is not a social democrat party under Corbyn.
    Well, quite. I thought it was precisely not being a Blairite social democrat which was Corbyn's main attraction.

    Anyone reading the recent FT article with McDonnell could hardly think that he will be a social democratic Chancellor.

    Jones's question is a good one though: why has social democracy lost its charm? The answers might not, though, be to his tastes, given the sorts of parties voters are turning to.
    Left-of-centre parties are traditionally a mixture of middle-class "progressives" and working-class "my party" voters. The former has strengthened over the years to the point that most urban professionals are leftish, but many of those go all the way and want real socialism (however one defines that). The latter has weakened, both because of the perception that the party has lost interest in their concerns (e.g. immigration) and simply because the working class is much smaller than it was.

    But before Conservatives become too smug, they have similar problems, with traditional-values voters in steady retreat and intellectual free marketeers a minority taste. Even more than Labour, they have an identity crisis to the point that it's hard to determine what they're for, except for keeping Labour out.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 18,485

    Until fairly recently, nice food was seen in England as being slightly effeminate and a bit too French.

    I can still break out in a cold sweat about "well done" (cremated) beef, and vegetables boiled to death, which my grandparents generation seemed to enjoy.

    You are the very model of a modern European family man.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 14,243
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
    Until fairly recently, nice food was seen in England as being slightly effeminate and a bit too French.

    I can still break out in a cold sweat about "well done" (cremated) beef, and vegetables boiled to death, which my grandparents generation seemed to enjoy.
    I think there was a general view that vegetables were bad for you, unless they were boiled thoroughly grey.
    It’s one of the most annoying things about the U.K. that good food is seen as “posh”, as opposed to the simplest and most accessible of life’s enjoyments.

    Still echoes of it on this board with the sneering about London coffee - as if the best we should aspire to is a cup of instant/charred gerbil without accusations of pretentiousness.
    It is all these silly sorts of coffees with all kinds of additions which are the complete opposite of good food or drink, simply made with first class ingredients. Anyone who has tried a really good coffee - which is not hard to make - would recognise the overpriced muck found in places like Starbucks and the rest for what it is - a way of relieving credulous Londoners of their money.
    The last coffee I had in London was excellent, Black Sheep near Cheapside. Highly recommended if you're near one.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,156

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
    Until fairly recently, nice food was seen in England as being slightly effeminate and a bit too French.

    I can still break out in a cold sweat about "well done" (cremated) beef, and vegetables boiled to death, which my grandparents generation seemed to enjoy.
    I think there was a general view that vegetables were bad for you, unless they were boiled thoroughly grey.
    It’s one of the most annoying things about the U.K. that good food is seen as “posh”, as opposed to the simplest and most accessible of life’s enjoyments.

    Still echoes of it on this board with the sneering about London coffee - as if the best we should aspire to is a cup of instant/charred gerbil without accusations of pretentiousness.
    In my experience, good, unelaborate food can be obtained throughout most of the country, across a range of eateries. Elaborate food, on the other hand, is frequently a disaster, often an expensive disaster.

    WRT coffee, I draw the line at drinking weasel vomit or civet cat excrement.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,930
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
    Such zealotry. Every time a barista asks me now if I want chocolate on my cappuccino I think of you with a twinge of guilt. And then say yes.
    I'm touched. :)

    Good food is one of the great pleasures of life. If you had tasted my mother's bolognese, mmmm!! - you would not put up with what passes for it here. It is not zealotry. It is wanting to repeat sensuous pleasures.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,427
    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    If the Tories announced that "A Flat White is just a Latte with less milk" then they would lose half of their remaining support in London.
    Who said that? It's a doppio with about half the milk of a latte.

    My current guilty pleasure is a decent cortado.
    Cyclefree said:

    Conservatives are not seeking the votes of Londoners, so it's hardly surprising that Londoners are not currently inclined to give them. I look forward with interest to see the Conservatives' latest vote-repelling action for the capital.

    Banning cappuccino with chocolate sprinkles...... ?

    ** runs and hides **
    No true Londoner has chocolate sprinkles. That's definitely an out of towner thing to do!
    No-one with any taste at all puts chocolate on their coffee. Unless they're secretly hankering after an Ovaltine or about 4 years old.

    The English are very prone to taking delicious dishes from abroad and turning them into the sort of mush you find in some of the less nice old peoples' homes. Pineapple on pizza, for instance; chocolate on cappuccino - which barely tastes of coffee at all in any case; spag Bol which is usually some overcooked pasta with a bit of mince and tomato paste on top (the horror!).
    Until fairly recently, nice food was seen in England as being slightly effeminate and a bit too French.

    I can still break out in a cold sweat about "well done" boiled to death, which my grandparents generation seemed to enjoy.
    I think there was a general view that vegetables were bad for you, unless they were boiled thoroughly grey.
    It’s one of the most annoying things about the U.K. that good food is seen as “posh”, as opposed to the simplest and most accessible of life’s enjoyments.

    Still echoes of it on this board with the sneering about London coffee - as if the best we should aspire to is a cup of instant/charred gerbil without accusations of pretentiousness.
    It is all these silly sorts of coffees with all kinds of additions which are the complete opposite of good food or drink, simply made with first class ingredients. Anyone who has tried a really good coffee - which is not hard to make - would recognise the overpriced muck found in places like Starbucks and the rest for what it is - a way of relieving credulous Londoners of their money.
    Starbucks is of course disgusting, accursed filth. I’m talking about the so-called third-wave coffee houses opened by my countrymen.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 9,930

    Cyclefree said:

    Or because Labour is not a social democrat party under Corbyn.
    Well, quite. I thought it was precisely not being a Blairite social democrat which was Corbyn's main attraction.

    Anyone reading the recent FT article with McDonnell could hardly think that he will be a social democratic Chancellor.

    Jones's question is a good one though: why has social democracy lost its charm? The answers might not, though, be to his tastes, given the sorts of parties voters are turning to.
    Left-of-centre parties are traditionally a mixture of middle-class "progressives" and working-class "my party" voters. The former has strengthened over the years to the point that most urban professionals are leftish, but many of those go all the way and want real socialism (however one defines that). The latter has weakened, both because of the perception that the party has lost interest in their concerns (e.g. immigration) and simply because the working class is much smaller than it was.

    But before Conservatives become too smug, they have similar problems, with traditional-values voters in steady retreat and intellectual free marketeers a minority taste. Even more than Labour, they have an identity crisis to the point that it's hard to determine what they're for, except for keeping Labour out.
    Agree with that. Traditional parties are largely running on empty. I am not sure where the new thinking is going to come from. But it is certainly needed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 19,880

    DavidL said:

    The reality is that we will very largely choose to adopt EU regulation, at least for manufactured goods. In fact I think we would do so irrespective of any deal with the EU. Why wouldn't we? Although you can always find absurdities in any set of regulations, the EU rules are for the most part perfectly sensible, we are too small a market for it to be worthwhile manufacturers building models specially for us, and it would be an expensive waste of time to set up an entire bureaucratic structure to create our own versions of the rules. So what I think she is trying to do is square the circle between accepting this reality, and retaining a theoretical right to diverge in order to keep the Ultras quiet. Will she succeed? Dunno. It depends entirely on how much fudge the EU is prepared to smother the issue in.

    Incidentally I thought she made one particularly interesting point on regulation:

    The UK has responsibility for the financial stability of the world’s most significant financial centre, and our taxpayers bear the risk, so it would be unrealistic for us to implement new EU legislation automatically and in its entirety.

    But with UK located banks underwriting around half of the debt and equity issued by EU companies and providing more than £1.1 trillion of cross-border lending to the rest of the EU in 2015 alone, this is a clear example of where only looking at precedent would hurt both the UK and EU economies.
    As @MaxPB points out not having access to the liquid markets and expertise of London would be highly damaging for the EU economy. @Calum suggested this morning that we should be paying them £1bn a year on a pay to play principle. I think not. Giving the same access to London as the EU has now is one of our stronger cards.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 4,133
    Cyclefree said:

    It is all these silly sorts of coffees with all kinds of additions which are the complete opposite of good food or drink, simply made with first class ingredients. Anyone who has tried a really good coffee - which is not hard to make - would recognise the overpriced muck found in places like Starbucks and the rest for what it is - a way of relieving credulous Londoners of their money.

    Funny this should come up just as I am enjoying a fresh coffee from my cafetiere. :)

    I have always been one for simple food, well cooked. Cheaper, better quality, quick to prepare.
This discussion has been closed.