Hands up those who think TMay's "hit back at Russia" response will include returning the £826,100 of donations to the Tories Russians have made since she entered No 10?
How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in point
The EU Establishment is wilfully blind, in the weirdest way. The hard or far right has now come second in elections or polls in France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Denmark, etc. Eurosceptics got 50% in Italy. The UK has actually exited.
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
What does Europe have to do with it? The country that is in the worst shape on this issue is probably Sweden and they've always had a Eurosceptic position and only really joined to get access to the single market.
France is seriously afflicted, surely more than Sweden. You have to visit Paris to get the sense of tension between native culture and Islam. Horrible.
Germany, Denmark and Holland have big problems too
Hungary Poland and Slovakia don't of course - but not for much longer if the EU has its way.
How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
.
.
It is - and a big reason why we had to leave
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Have I missed something here? How is leaving eu going to help this situation?
We have the same issue in Glasgow but the snp is covering it up. My biggest fear is we replace the east European workers who add to Scotland with more sub continent Asians who I am not sure do.
As the child of Middle Eastern immigrants, I take offense to that. The problem is a subculture from very rural areas. There are millions of educated, secular-minded democrats who are fine additions to Britain.
The problem is Islam.
The vast majority of Muslims in the UK do not groom children for sex.
But neither do the vast majority of Muslims in the UK rat out those few who DO groom children for sex. It is a peculiarly Muslim problem, and yes, it may be a limited problem with roots in rural south Asians. But how many mosques call it out as utterly unacceptable behaviour each Friday?
My parents haven't ratted out anyone who did groom children, mainly because they are not aware of anyone that has. Do you think we have national Muslim meetings with a short segment from the dodgy taxi drivers on their latest raping antics?
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in point
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
It is - and a big reason why we had to leave
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Have I missed something here? How is leaving eu going to help this situation?
We have the same issue in Glasgow but the snp is covering it up. My biggest fear is we replace the east European workers who add to Scotland with more sub continent Asians who I am not sure do.
As the child of Middle Eastern immigrants, I take offense to that. The problem is a subculture from very rural areas. There are millions of educated, secular-minded democrats who are fine additions to Britain.
The problem is Islam.
Islamophobia is not the answer.
Unless changes comes from within, Islam will continue to attract negativity. There has to be an acknowledgement that community leaders have failed to tackle this properly and that they will not tolerate it.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in point
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
It is - and a big reason why we had to leave
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Have I missed something here? How is leaving eu going to help this situation?
We have the same issue in Glasgow but the snp is covering it up. My biggest fear is we replace the east European workers who add to Scotland with more sub continent Asians who I am not sure do.
As the child of Middle Eastern immigrants, I take offense to that. The problem is a subculture from very rural areas. There are millions of educated, secular-minded democrats who are fine additions to Britain.
The problem is Islam.
Islamophobia is not the answer.
Unless changes comes from within, Islam will continue to attract negativity. There has to be an acknowledgement that community leaders have failed to tackle this properly and that they will not tolerate it.
Hands up those who think TMay's "hit back at Russia" response will include returning the £826,100 of donations to the Tories Russians have made since she entered No 10?
Presumably only someone stupid enough to think Putin and All Russians are synonyms.
Then again, this is not really 'news' in the sense of something that's just happened. The Sunday Mirror (left-leaning btw, so I'm not sure its a case of the left trying to cover this up) has done an extended investigation, all very laudable, but a lot of the cases date back 15-20 years.
But they are deeply shocking cases. Not sure how the wider issue can be tackled aside from pumping more resources into the police, education and social services etc.
A lot of the cases are also very recent. This shit, unbelievably, is still happening across the country, and on a massive scale
I don't disagree - even one case would be one too many. There needs to be a coherent national strategy for stamping out. May and Rudd could/should make this happen.
They already have a strategy, which is to prosecute the offenders.
As I mentioned below, none of the punters seem to be being prosecuted, just the pimps. I wonder who they are. There has been curiously little written about them.
How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
1000 girls raped, pimped and even murdered - over forty years - by Asian gangs. In just one town.
And the BBC is utterly silent.
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
.
.
It is - and a big reason why we had to leave
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Snip
Snip
As the child of Middle Eastern immigrants, I take offense to that. The problem is a subculture from very rural areas. There are millions of educated, secular-minded democrats who are fine additions to Britain.
The problem is Islam.
The vast majority of Muslims in the UK do not groom children for sex.
But neither do the vast majority of Muslims in the UK rat out those few who DO groom children for sex. It is a peculiarly Muslim problem, and yes, it may be a limited problem with roots in rural south Asians. But how many mosques call it out as utterly unacceptable behaviour each Friday?
My parents haven't ratted out anyone who did groom children, mainly because they are not aware of anyone that has. Do you think we have national Muslim meetings with a short segment from the dodgy taxi drivers on their latest raping antics?
From memory, you are the child of Iranian exiles. I’m not sure there’s a huge amount of cultural overlap between those who fled Iran when the Shah fell, and the backwoodsmen of Azad Kashmir. Unfortunately, vastly more people come to Britain from the latter place than the former.
If you’re Shia, lots of them would consider you a heretic.
To be honest, given what we've now learned, I'd now be surprised if this WASN'T happening in every sizeable British town or city. That means tens or even hundreds of thousands of victims of Muslim grooming, over the last four decades. At some point this huge huge scandal will impact our politics.
Difficult to know who will benefit, and who will be destroyed.
I'm generally staying right of out of this highly charged argument, like a coward, but I would comment that something I always hear from staff who deal with child sexual exploitation issues (they prefer to use the entire phrase, rather than merely say CSE), is that so often people will say 'oh that doesn't happen around here' and they really stress that child sexual exploitation really does happen all over. Which is not to say there are not areas it happens on a larger scale, and we simply cannot ignore that, but the salient point is, yes, it probably is happening in a great many towns and cities.
I am always struck by a memory I have of an interview with, I believe, Tommy Robinson, being all but laughed at on some news programme for claiming there were grooming and rape gangs targeting people in poor areas. And he was totally right. Which does not mean he is right about anything else, but what it does for me is occasionally make me believe that the risk of suspicion 'going too far', a common theme, may need to be a price worth paying to avoid tacking a problem because it is too awkward to talk about, as we know has happened in some places.
If May/Rudd want to really send a signal on this, they should demand that all Police and associated authorities reject the idea that they should put 'community sensitivities' ahead of proper investigations. There should no longer be no-go areas for the police or social workers or whoever. The law of the land applies to everyone equally. Things should never not be investigated for fear of upsetting 'community cohesion'
Personally I would remove all religion-based courts from our system as well. If you live here, you are subject to UK courts. End of.
My parents haven't ratted out anyone who did groom children, mainly because they are not aware of anyone that has. Do you think we have national Muslim meetings with a short segment from the dodgy taxi drivers on their latest raping antics?
And how many times has this behaviour been called out at Friday prayers when your parents have been present? How many times have they been told to report such behaviour, as it it is poisoning Islam in this country?
Or maybe we should get CofE vicars to mention it each Sunday?
I think I know why they are silent. It is because the truth is now so enormous, shocking, difficult, and horrific, we feel an irresistible urge to turn away. How much easier it is to pretend, to forget, to ignore.
We are a nation in denial.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in point
And still the centrist elite act as if nothing is wrong, the voters are just having a spasm, all will be well as long as there's More Europe. It's a death wish.
It is - and a big reason why we had to leave
As the child of Middle Eastern immigrants, I take offense to that. The problem is a subculture from very rural areas. There are millions of educated, secular-minded democrats who are fine additions to Britain.
The problem is Islam.
Islamophobia is not the answer.
Unless changes comes from within, Islam will continue to attract negativity. There has to be an acknowledgement that community leaders have failed to tackle this properly and that they will not tolerate it.
Yes, agreed.
Part of the issue is that those represented by "community leaders" tend to be the least integrated. I grew up in a modern, secular-leaning Muslim household. My representative was the local MP, as it is for most white people.
My parents haven't ratted out anyone who did groom children, mainly because they are not aware of anyone that has. Do you think we have national Muslim meetings with a short segment from the dodgy taxi drivers on their latest raping antics?
And how many times has this behaviour been called out at Friday prayers when your parents have been present? How many times have they been told to report such behaviour, as it it is poisoning Islam in this country?
Or maybe we should get CofE vicars to mention it each Sunday?
I don't know as I haven't been for many years and I was mainly thinking about Star Wars when I did. How often does your local Catholic Church tell people not to fiddle kids in the Sunday sermon?
Hands up those who think TMay's "hit back at Russia" response will include returning the £826,100 of donations to the Tories Russians have made since she entered No 10?
Presumably only someone stupid enough to think Putin and All Russians are synonyms.
Do you think the Venn diagram of 'Wealthy Russians' and 'Russians Opposed to Putin' will have a big intersection? Most of that Russian money will have Putin's fingerprints on it.
How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
100.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in point
The EU Establishment is wilfully
What does Europe have to do with it? The country that is in the worst shape on this issue is probably Sweden and they've always had a Eurosceptic position and only really joined to get access to the single market.
France is seriously afflicted, surely more than Sweden. You have to visit Paris to get the sense of tension between native culture and Islam. Horrible.
Germany, Denmark and Holland have big problems too
Hungary Poland and Slovakia don't of course - but not for much longer if the EU has its way.
Transcultural sexual exploitation and trafficking occurs there, as it does worldwide, but with different cultures involved, as it does in other parts of the world, such as Thailand.
As a casual observer, it is very striking that many of the youngsters being sexually exploited and trafficked on the streets of Amsterdam, Hamburg or Copenhagen are of African or Asian origin, with predominantly white European users.
These Muslim gangs seem to work more behind closed doors, in safe houses and takeaways, so harder to target than the more commercial end of sex trafficking. I think that there is a lot of concealed abuse within Muslim communities too. It is very unlikely that these men return home and become doting husbands, cousins and uncles, indeed they may be even more abusive.
Hands up those who think TMay's "hit back at Russia" response will include returning the £826,100 of donations to the Tories Russians have made since she entered No 10?
Presumably only someone stupid enough to think Putin and All Russians are synonyms.
Do you think the Venn diagram of 'Wealthy Russians' and 'Russians Opposed to Putin' will have a big intersection? Most of that Russian money will have Putin's fingerprints on it.
I expect that most of the sensible ones got their money out long ago, before Putin controlled everything, but if you know better then I'm sure the authorities would be interested to hear about it. Plus the donations have presumably been added up by the Sunday Times in the usual way of journalists, i.e. by including anyone with even the faintest Russian connections.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
.
.
It is - and a big reason why we had to leave
I thought it was Muslims from Asia not poles or Italians who exploited these girls. Snip
Snip
itain.
The problem is Islam.
The vast majority of Muslims in the UK do not groom children for sex.
But neither do the vast majority of Muslims in the UK rat out those few who DO groom children for sex. It is a peculiarly Muslim problem, and yes, it may be a limited problem with roots in rural south Asians. But how many mosques call it out as utterly unacceptable behaviour each Friday?
My parents haven't ratted out anyone who did groom children, mainly because they are not aware of anyone that has. Do you think we have national Muslim meetings with a short segment from the dodgy taxi drivers on their latest raping antics?
From memory, you are the child of Iranian exiles. I’m not sure there’s a huge amount of cultural overlap between those who fled Iran when the Shah fell, and the backwoodsmen of Azad Kashmir. Unfortunately, vastly more people come to Britain from the latter place than the former.
If you’re Shia, lots of them would consider you a heretic.
I apologise if I misremembered.
My mother is actually Lebanese originally, but yes you remember correctly. I agree the cultural overlap isn't great, but that just goes to show "Islam" is not all conquering as a label. That is why I am rejecting so strongly the idea that Islam, despite its many flaws, is the main problem here. It is mainly an issue among those from the tribal parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Tribal culture sucks.
If the UK really wants to take a "keep them out" approach, don't take it out on all Muslims. Clamp down on arranged marriages from such areas.
My parents haven't ratted out anyone who did groom children, mainly because they are not aware of anyone that has. Do you think we have national Muslim meetings with a short segment from the dodgy taxi drivers on their latest raping antics?
And how many times has this behaviour been called out at Friday prayers when your parents have been present? How many times have they been told to report such behaviour, as it it is poisoning Islam in this country?
Or maybe we should get CofE vicars to mention it each Sunday?
I don't know as I haven't been for many years and I was mainly thinking about Star Wars when I did. How often does your local Catholic Church tell people not to fiddle kids in the Sunday sermon?
Nice bit of moral equivalence. I don't have a religion of my own. I have an innate sense of right or wrong, without requiring weekly guidance.
But I guess the Catholic Church is now rather more inclined to question those who kiddy-fiddle than it did previously. Can we say that of British mosques about child abusers in their midst?
My parents haven't ratted out anyone who did groom children, mainly because they are not aware of anyone that has. Do you think we have national Muslim meetings with a short segment from the dodgy taxi drivers on their latest raping antics?
And how many times has this behaviour been called out at Friday prayers when your parents have been present? How many times have they been told to report such behaviour, as it it is poisoning Islam in this country?
Or maybe we should get CofE vicars to mention it each Sunday?
I don't know as I haven't been for many years and I was mainly thinking about Star Wars when I did. How often does your local Catholic Church tell people not to fiddle kids in the Sunday sermon?
Nice bit of moral equivalence. I don't have a religion of my own. I have an innate sense of right or wrong, without requiring weekly guidance.
But I guess the Catholic Church is now rather more inclined to question those who kiddy-fiddle than it did previously. Can we say that of British mosques about child abusers in their midst?
I am not religious either, but the idea that religious people don't have an innate sense of right and wrong is pretty facile.
I'm afraid that the authorities have more blood on their hands than does Islam. At every level we have failed. The Police have failed to enforce the laws that we have, and failed to investigate what they clearly knew was an issue. The national broadcaster and many other journalistic sources have refused to report it despite having knowledge of it and knowing it to be an important story. And successive governments have refused to hold any of the former to account.
This has helped to normalise the disgusting abuse that is being perpetrated and empowered the criminals in the process, safe in the knowledge that the authorities at all levels will turn a blind eye. And in the process has made a problem that may once have been manageable - simply by enforcing the laws that we already have - into something much worse.
And sadly, it's difficult to see any kind of satisfactory outcome.
How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
100.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in point
The EU Establishment is wilfully
.
Germany, Denmark and Holland have big problems too
Hungary Poland and Slovakia don't of course - but not for much longer if the EU has its way.
Transcultural sexual exploitation and trafficking occurs there, as it does worldwide, but with different cultures involved, as it does in other parts of the world, such as Thailand.
As a casual observer, it is very striking that many of the youngsters being sexually exploited and trafficked on the streets of Amsterdam, Hamburg or Copenhagen are of African or Asian origin, with predominantly white European users.
These Muslim gangs seem to work more behind closed doors, in safe houses and takeaways, so harder to target than the more commercial end of sex trafficking. I think that there is a lot of concealed abuse within Muslim communities too. It is very unlikely that these men return home and become doting husbands, cousins and uncles, indeed they may be even more abusive.
I wouldn't be sure about that. Among the subculture we are talking about there is a clear mindset difference between "kuffar whores" and good Muslim girls. It's a bit like how Thomas Jefferson was considered a gentleman despite raping his slaves.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
.
.
It is - and a big reason why we had to leave
itain.
The problem is Islam.
The vast majority of Muslims in the UK do not groom children for sex.
From memory, you are the child of Iranian exiles. I’m not sure there’s a huge amount of cultural overlap between those who fled Iran when the Shah fell, and the backwoodsmen of Azad Kashmir. Unfortunately, vastly more people come to Britain from the latter place than the former.
If you’re Shia, lots of them would consider you a heretic.
I apologise if I misremembered.
My mother is actually Lebanese originally, but yes you remember correctly. I agree the cultural overlap isn't great, but that just goes to show "Islam" is not all conquering as a label. That is why I am rejecting so strongly the idea that Islam, despite its many flaws, is the main problem here. It is mainly an issue among those from the tribal parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Tribal culture sucks.
If the UK really wants to take a "keep them out" approach, don't take it out on all Muslims. Clamp down on arranged marriages from such areas.
Unfortunately, it is hard to maintain the distinction between Islam and the cultural practises of the group you mentioned when most people in the U.K. will only interact with the second group, particularly outside London. The high birth rate compared to other Muslim groups will only exacerbate this in the future.
The best thing any government could do for integration would be a 20-year ban on ‘family reunification’ for arranged marriages from Pakistan and Afghanistan. Sadly, it will never happen.
My parents haven't ratted out anyone who did groom children, mainly because they are not aware of anyone that has. Do you think we have national Muslim meetings with a short segment from the dodgy taxi drivers on their latest raping antics?
And how many times has this behaviour been called out at Friday prayers when your parents have been present? How many times have they been told to report such behaviour, as it it is poisoning Islam in this country?
Or maybe we should get CofE vicars to mention it each Sunday?
I don't know as I haven't been for many years and I was mainly thinking about Star Wars when I did. How often does your local Catholic Church tell people not to fiddle kids in the Sunday sermon?
Nice bit of moral equivalence. I don't have a religion of my own. I have an innate sense of right or wrong, without requiring weekly guidance.
But I guess the Catholic Church is now rather more inclined to question those who kiddy-fiddle than it did previously. Can we say that of British mosques about child abusers in their midst?
I am not religious either, but the idea that religious people don't have an innate sense of right and wrong is pretty facile.
Unfortunately, it is hard to maintain the distinction between Islam and the cultural practises of the group you mentioned when most people in the U.K. will only interact with the second group, particularly outside London. The high birth rate compared to other Muslim groups will only exacerbate this in the future.
The best thing any government could do for integration would be a 20-year ban on ‘family reunification’ for arranged marriages from Pakistan and Afghanistan. Sadly, it will never happen.
Most Muslims in the UK are from India or more educated parts of Pakistan.
You don't need to ban all arranged marriages. Just put up the age to 21 for foreign wives and give extensive questioning to women under 25 coming here and make it clear their rights as equal citizens. That undermines the main purpose of the tribal marriages: to get nice, submissive teens who won't stand up for themselves.
Though, to be honest, I hear the income threshold has killed most of these visas off anyway. Taxi drivers and takeaway workers can't afford to bring in spouses any more. The Tories wanted it higher too.
I wouldn't say that the problem is with Islam per se - but rather with a culture within Islam that values women so poorly and white women even more poorly that this grooming is seen as acceptable. Add to that an unwillingness of the authorities to properly enforce the law when it comes to dealing with certain communities. These two elements together have produced a toxic culture where abuse is seen as the norm and no-one is prepared to take sufficient action to investigate/prevent it. Things have changed - but not fast enough and without an honest acknowledgement that there are those within the Muslim community who have helped conceal/cover-up the problem and that there is a cultural issue within parts of Islam where women are not viewed as full human beings.
I think that much of what you say is true, but it's a subset of a wider truth. I've no experience of any of this (the sleepy suburban Muslim community in Broxtowe were IMO extremely unlikely to be involved in or have come across anything like it, any more than the average resident of Surrey knows much about gang crime in London), but I've read several of the reports in detail.
There is evidently in many urban communities an underclass of young women who are treated as sex objects by everyone around them and who respond to grooming because it often has a false veneer of generosity and kindness. When they found that they'd been drawn into a violent and exploitative environment, they were apparently often not taken seriously by police and social workers who saw them as promiscuous, drunken, and/or addicted. The point is that some of the victims might have been any of these things, but they still deserved to be listened to about rape and abuse.
The exploiters were in reality treating them with contempt, but so were the authorities who shrugged off complaints that would be given the utmost attention if they came from a "respectable" middle-class home. Some of that may indeed have been because of misplaced concern about community relations, but a substantial element seems to have been an absence of basic respect for the victims. And that dismissive attitude must have emboldened the abusers, seeing it as implicit validation of the contempt.
It's a horrible business, and it does need vigorous prosecutions and proactive campaigning by Muslim groups to stamp it out, but there are lessons for the wider British community too: there are just too many people whose experience of justice is that they are not listened to or respected (not just in this context). If we reach the point that justice is only available to people with orderly lifestyles who marshal their complaints in a coherent, well-reasoned fashion, then we cease to be a society where justice is the norm.
How can the Telford grooming story, in the Sunday Mirror, not be dominating absolutely every conversation, and headlining TV news?
100.
Probably because the story is a bit bobbins and the truth is more mundane, and so less prone to your kind of hyperbolic reaction...
'Mundane' is certainly not how I would describe what went on.
One of the Telford Muslim abusers burned down a house with his pregnant rape victim inside, along with her mother and sister, thus murdering three.
"Mundane"
Tyson makes me want to vomit. Into his face. I am jubilant that Brexit has ruined his stupid, pointless life.
I am sure the BBC and Guardian would have also ignored this story if a white far right racist had done this to a Muslim family....
I mean when the guy from the Times tried to expose previous crimes he wasn't tarred as a racist or anything from sections of the media.
Then the establishment can't understand why the electorate vote for people they think will act - Germany and Italy being cases in point
The EU Establishment is wilfully
.
Germany, Denmark and Holland have big problems too
Hungary Poland and Slovakia don't of course - but not for much longer if the EU has its way.
Transcultural
These Muslim gangs seem to work more behind closed doors, in safe houses and takeaways, so harder to target than the more commercial end of sex trafficking. I think that there is a lot of concealed abuse within Muslim communities too. It is very unlikely that these men return home and become doting husbands, cousins and uncles, indeed they may be even more abusive.
I wouldn't be sure about that. Among the subculture we are talking about there is a clear mindset difference between "kuffar whores" and good Muslim girls. It's a bit like how Thomas Jefferson was considered a gentleman despite raping his slaves.
Most Muslims in the UK are from India or more educated parts of Pakistan.
You don't need to ban all arranged marriages. Just put up the age to 21 for foreign wives and give extensive questioning to women under 25 coming here and make it clear their rights as equal citizens. That undermines the main purpose of the tribal marriages: to get nice, submissive teens who won't stand up for themselves.
Though, to be honest, I hear the income threshold has killed most of these visas off anyway. Taxi drivers and takeaway workers can't afford to bring in spouses any more. The Tories wanted it higher too.
Sorry, but your first sentence is factually wrong.
I don’t think Mirpur is famous for its education either.
I agree banning arranged marriage is not practical. Make the minimum age 25 with a minimum level of English required.
There are plenty of ways around the income threshold (eg moving a savings balance around between family members), which in any case is far too low. We should set it at the minimum salary which would make a couple with two children with only one earner break even for the taxpayer. I expect it would be £30-35k.
Good luck with that...I somehow doubt they are going to get very far unless they ignore the do-gooders and introduce draconian measures where they are willing to just dump people back in their home country even if their home country isn't willing to accept them.
Given Merkel's past record I doubt that will be happening.
In relative terms Germany is quite ruthless on deportations.
Basically, every state is required to readmit its own citizens, even against their will, if they are not recognised as refugees in Germany. This is a responsibility under international law, which is translated into writing in readmission agreements.
And if they destroy their papers, how do you prove they are from Ghana not Nigerian or vice versa?
Comments
Hands up those who think TMay's "hit back at Russia" response will include returning the £826,100 of donations to the Tories Russians have made since she entered No 10?
If you’re Shia, lots of them would consider you a heretic.
I apologise if I misremembered.
I am always struck by a memory I have of an interview with, I believe, Tommy Robinson, being all but laughed at on some news programme for claiming there were grooming and rape gangs targeting people in poor areas. And he was totally right. Which does not mean he is right about anything else, but what it does for me is occasionally make me believe that the risk of suspicion 'going too far', a common theme, may need to be a price worth paying to avoid tacking a problem because it is too awkward to talk about, as we know has happened in some places.
Personally I would remove all religion-based courts from our system as well. If you live here, you are subject to UK courts. End of.
Or maybe we should get CofE vicars to mention it each Sunday?
As a casual observer, it is very striking that many of the youngsters being sexually exploited and trafficked on the streets of Amsterdam, Hamburg or Copenhagen are of African or Asian origin, with predominantly white European users.
These Muslim gangs seem to work more behind closed doors, in safe houses and takeaways, so harder to target than the more commercial end of sex trafficking. I think that there is a lot of concealed abuse within Muslim communities too. It is very unlikely that these men return home and become doting husbands, cousins and uncles, indeed they may be even more abusive.
If the UK really wants to take a "keep them out" approach, don't take it out on all Muslims. Clamp down on arranged marriages from such areas.
But I guess the Catholic Church is now rather more inclined to question those who kiddy-fiddle than it did previously. Can we say that of British mosques about child abusers in their midst?
Anyway, the answer to your question is yes.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslims-unite-to-condemn-extreme-depravity-of-child-grooming-in-first-uk-wide-single-sermon-8678412.html?amp
This has helped to normalise the disgusting abuse that is being perpetrated and empowered the criminals in the process, safe in the knowledge that the authorities at all levels will turn a blind eye. And in the process has made a problem that may once have been manageable - simply by enforcing the laws that we already have - into something much worse.
And sadly, it's difficult to see any kind of satisfactory outcome.
The best thing any government could do for integration would be a 20-year ban on ‘family reunification’ for arranged marriages from Pakistan and Afghanistan. Sadly, it will never happen.
You don't need to ban all arranged marriages. Just put up the age to 21 for foreign wives and give extensive questioning to women under 25 coming here and make it clear their rights as equal citizens. That undermines the main purpose of the tribal marriages: to get nice, submissive teens who won't stand up for themselves.
Though, to be honest, I hear the income threshold has killed most of these visas off anyway. Taxi drivers and takeaway workers can't afford to bring in spouses any more. The Tories wanted it higher too.
There is evidently in many urban communities an underclass of young women who are treated as sex objects by everyone around them and who respond to grooming because it often has a false veneer of generosity and kindness. When they found that they'd been drawn into a violent and exploitative environment, they were apparently often not taken seriously by police and social workers who saw them as promiscuous, drunken, and/or addicted. The point is that some of the victims might have been any of these things, but they still deserved to be listened to about rape and abuse.
The exploiters were in reality treating them with contempt, but so were the authorities who shrugged off complaints that would be given the utmost attention if they came from a "respectable" middle-class home. Some of that may indeed have been because of misplaced concern about community relations, but a substantial element seems to have been an absence of basic respect for the victims. And that dismissive attitude must have emboldened the abusers, seeing it as implicit validation of the contempt.
It's a horrible business, and it does need vigorous prosecutions and proactive campaigning by Muslim groups to stamp it out, but there are lessons for the wider British community too: there are just too many people whose experience of justice is that they are not listened to or respected (not just in this context). If we reach the point that justice is only available to people with orderly lifestyles who marshal their complaints in a coherent, well-reasoned fashion, then we cease to be a society where justice is the norm.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/29/-sp-untold-story-culture-of-shame-ruzwana-bashir
The prevalence of forced marriages, "honour" killings and other extreme abuse would suggest that other forms of abuse are also prevalent.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a34b7b/phantom-secure-sinaloa-drug-cartel-encrypted-blackberry
Most Muslims in the UK are from India or more educated parts of Pakistan.
You don't need to ban all arranged marriages. Just put up the age to 21 for foreign wives and give extensive questioning to women under 25 coming here and make it clear their rights as equal citizens. That undermines the main purpose of the tribal marriages: to get nice, submissive teens who won't stand up for themselves.
Though, to be honest, I hear the income threshold has killed most of these visas off anyway. Taxi drivers and takeaway workers can't afford to bring in spouses any more. The Tories wanted it higher too.
Sorry, but your first sentence is factually wrong.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_Kingdom
I don’t think Mirpur is famous for its education either.
I agree banning arranged marriage is not practical. Make the minimum age 25 with a minimum level of English required.
There are plenty of ways around the income threshold (eg moving a savings balance around between family members), which in any case is far too low. We should set it at the minimum salary which would make a couple with two children with only one earner break even for the taxpayer. I expect it would be £30-35k.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/juncker-wegen-selmayrs-befoerderung-in-erklaerungsnot-15486115.html
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/briten-ueber-eu-laender-starrsinnig-arrogant-feindselig-15484241.html
And the BBC (finally):
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43366724