I would just like to point out to CCHQ that I am acting as Felix's agent in this matter and Felix will require a fee before you start using on your literature ;-)
As a true Tory thru and thru my services require neither fee nor honours!
At least Spurs made it interesting in going out of the CL, United and Chelsea.... not so much.
Yep, these teams are stinking it out. Last year Leicester was the only English team to progress from the last 16. So much for lack of European experience, all becoming the new Arsenal.
Is it just me or is Russia behaving as you’d expect a guilty party to?
Chemical attack on your soil, UK? No - wasn’t me —- perhaps you did it yourself! Plus various mocking tweets from the Russian embassy.
An innocent Russia would profess concern about this international outrage and offer all help to identify possible lines of enquiry.
I’m sad to say that May has not done enough today. Among other things, Russia has managed to weaponise social media against the Western democracies, and I see no serious recognition of that or attempt to do anything about it.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The underlying truth is that May cannot follow through on her tough talk with Russia. There are no options beyond expelling a few diplomats. Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage. Furthermore, there is no political will in the country for military action against Russia. In my view, the outrage about this Salisbury incident is something being whipped up by the media and has no basis in popular opinion, outside forums like this which are not representative of the population at large.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage." I am always a bit baffled to hear that sort of thing from dim lefties (no offence!), because it comes down to nostalgia for the days of empire and colonies and stuff, which I thought was meant to be a vice of the right? And last time it happened, cutting a figure turned out to mean being at the head of the queue to fellate the POTUS and get stuck in to some serious brownie murdering with him. Were you happy with that? We aren't post-Brexit, incidentally, and anyway Germany seems happy to stand up and be counted with us, and surely even you don't believe that Trump is in some way this country's fault?
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
The suggestion that we are in any way isolated is bordering on clinical delusion.
He failed his A-levels, he failed polytechnic, and he had an undistinguished career as a housing officer before getting a safe seat where he had an undistinguished career as a backbencher where his chief energy seems to have been signing literally hundreds of EDMs every year. Every political group he has organised or led either failed entirely or was unimportant when its goals were achieved. It's hard to believe this is accidental.
If therefore he is doing something rather dumb (and he is) we don't need to wonder if Milne is in the pay of the FSB. We just need to remember Corbyn, like the egregious Wisemann, is utterly clueless in what he's doing and will therefore usually do the wrong thing.
I can't agree with your assessment of Corbyn.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The underlying truth is that May cannot follow through on her tough talk with Russia. There are no options beyond expelling a few diplomats. Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage. Furthermore, there is no political will in the country for military action against Russia. In my view, the outrage about this Salisbury incident is something being whipped up by the media and has no basis in popular opinion, outside forums like this which are not representative of the population at large.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
I respectively suggest you are out of touch with the idea Salisbury is being whipped up the media and is hugely insulting to the people living in Salisbury and other areas affected.
This will escalate into International condemnation of Russia and you think the ordinary people will not notice
Have you been to Salisbury recently Big_G? Life carries on much as usual - some trade impact but not as much as caused by the snow the week before.
I'm not trying to dimish the seriousness of the Skripal attack but let's not exaggerate - Salisbury is still a thriving, comfortable, lovely, minor city in England.
Not the way businesses in Salisbury see it Ben
Yes, but is it Sawls-bury or Souls-bury? That’s the key question.
Is it just me or is Russia behaving as you’d expect a guilty party to?
Chemical attack on your soil, UK? No - wasn’t me —- perhaps you did it yourself! Plus various mocking tweets from the Russian embassy.
An innocent Russia would profess concern about this international outrage and offer all help to identify possible lines of enquiry.
I’m sad to say that May has not done enough today. Among other things, Russia has managed to weaponise social media against the Western democracies, and I see no serious recognition of that or attempt to do anything about it.
This is a very fast moving story and has a long way to go
I’m sad to say that May has not done enough today. Among other things, Russia has managed to weaponise social media against the Western democracies, and I see no serious recognition of that or attempt to do anything about it.
I think that's a little unfair, May was pretty clear that there will be more action than just expelling diplomats, but it will take a bit of time to sort out if only because we want to do everything to the letter of the law, not like Putin's mob.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage." I am always a bit baffled to hear that sort of thing from dim lefties (no offence!), because it comes down to nostalgia for the days of empire and colonies and stuff, which I thought was meant to be a vice of the right? And last time it happened, cutting a figure turned out to mean being at the head of the queue to fellate the POTUS and get stuck in to some serious brownie murdering with him. Were you happy with that? We aren't post-Brexit, incidentally, and anyway Germany seems happy to stand up and be counted with us, and surely even you don't believe that Trump is in some way this country's fault?
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
You are overstating it a bit, but certainly we’ve seen a decline in power over the past ten years. Lots of reasons, in no particular order.
- GFC and consequent lack on money. Both military and FCO underfunded. - Lack of interest in foreign policy generally from Tory leadership since 2010. - Intense focus on internal issues (immigration, austerity) - Scottish ref showed how fragile union was/is - Brexit - Trump - Continued hangover from Iraq and Afghanistan
Against that we’ve seen over that period the increasing centrality of London in the global economic and cultural spheres, although Brexit has dented that too and calls it into question.
Is it just me or is Russia behaving as you’d expect a guilty party to?
Chemical attack on your soil, UK? No - wasn’t me —- perhaps you did it yourself! Plus various mocking tweets from the Russian embassy.
An innocent Russia would profess concern about this international outrage and offer all help to identify possible lines of enquiry.
I’m sad to say that May has not done enough today. Among other things, Russia has managed to weaponise social media against the Western democracies, and I see no serious recognition of that or attempt to do anything about it.
Its almost a classic plea. It didn't happen and if it did someone else did it and if they didn't it was self defence, and if it wasn't I was provoked and if I wasn't I was delusional at the time. There is not many stages left.
I’m sad to say that May has not done enough today. Among other things, Russia has managed to weaponise social media against the Western democracies, and I see no serious recognition of that or attempt to do anything about it.
Yes, definitely agree with that, we need to target the money and publicise how much wealth has been stolen by Putin and his cronies.
Russia just stated UK has means of producing the chemical used itself
Very likely true but irrelevant; designed to muddy the waters of course.
Do you really believe that and by implication we would use it on ourselves
For most chemicals, the "means of producing them" is some other, more readily available, chemicals, and a chemistry lab, and, yes, we have those things. And I'd hope we were synthesizing shedloads of the stuff so that we can develop and test ways of detecting, and protecting ourselves from, it. Otherwise what are paying those twats at Porton Down for?
It is heartening that Russia has said something so stupid; they look rattled.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The underlying truth is that May cannot follow through on her tough talk with Russia. There are no options beyond expelling a few diplomats. Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage. Furthermore, there is no political will in the country for military action against Russia. In my view, the outrage about this Salisbury incident is something being whipped up by the media and has no basis in popular opinion, outside forums like this which are not representative of the population at large.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The underlying truth is that May cannot follow through on her tough talk with Russia. There are no options beyond expelling a few diplomats. Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage. Furthermore, there is no political will in the country for military action against Russia. In my view, the outrage about this Salisbury incident is something being whipped up by the media and has no basis in popular opinion, outside forums like this which are not representative of the population at large.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
Not legally you wouldn't.
EDIT to add
Acting like a dictatorial arsehole won't enhance or case.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The underlying truth is that May cannot follow through on her tough talk with Russia. There are no options beyond expelling a few diplomats. Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage. Furthermore, there is no political will in the country for military action against Russia. In my view, the outrage about this Salisbury incident is something being whipped up by the media and has no basis in popular opinion, outside forums like this which are not representative of the population at large.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
Surprising agreement between me, Foxy and Max tonight. Eerie. More can/should be done, and while of course I want to follow the law making process (which takes time), I wanted to see May set the direction.
If a non-state actor had acquired a nerve agent, and used it to almost kill someone on British soil, most of them would claim credit.
They would probably have been somewhat less discriminate in their targeting as well. The only remotely plausible alternative to Russia being responsible is a third party wanting to disrupt U.K.-Russia relations. But that really would require a lot more evidence than the obvious explanation.
There are several reasons, but let us take one that is close to many people's hearts, and particularly those on the left: disarmament.
We have very strict laws and controls on NBC weapons. Nuclear has been less successful of the the three, but biological and chemical controls have generally worked well. The sad thing is that the world has ignored breaches, particularly in Iraq and Syria, and that has weakened the entire NBC structure. After Miliband's stupidity over Syria (and I can put it worse than that), there will be other regimes looking into developing and potentially using B&C weapons, because they know they can use them with impunity.
Turning our backs will just tell Putin and others that they can develop such weapons, and even use them. And that's obviously bad for us and the world.
This is why Corbyn's reaction is so incredibly dumb.
Fine words but what is the "appropriate" response ? What was it in Syria for example ? What was it when Saddam gassed the Kurds back in the 80s ?
How do we "punish" Russia ? Diplomatically, economically, culturally - yes, fine, but how effective would any of that really be? Militarily - okay, what, how, when, where and how do you prevent escalation ?
This is the difficult stuff - the stuff that should keep politicians and political people awake at night. I've yet to hear of any response from anyone that is neither wholly over-the-top nor wholly ineffective.
Very, if - and only if - we take international opinion with us; which is why this is very heartening
I think that there is more we could do on our own. For example we could seize the assets in the U.K. of all oligarchs that are linked to the Kremlin and invite them to prove that they came by these assets legitimately and not using the proceeds of crime.
We should exclude all such oligarchs from this country as well as their families. We are dealing with a mafiosi style bunch of crooks and thugs. We should stop pretending that we are dealing with anything other than a failed state. Normal diplomatic relations are simply not applicable.
Sigh. As I have said on here a thousand times....they largely have British or EU citizenship. You can't throw British or EU citizens out of their own country nor arbitrarily confiscate all their money. Slightly worrying to see a lawyer advocating such abuse of due process.
Is it just me or is Russia behaving as you’d expect a guilty party to?
Chemical attack on your soil, UK? No - wasn’t me —- perhaps you did it yourself! Plus various mocking tweets from the Russian embassy.
An innocent Russia would profess concern about this international outrage and offer all help to identify possible lines of enquiry.
I’m sad to say that May has not done enough today. Among other things, Russia has managed to weaponise social media against the Western democracies, and I see no serious recognition of that or attempt to do anything about it.
"weaponise social media against the Western democracies" sounds a difficult thing to do, but if its been done how was May meant to react? Unleash a horde of 100,000 instatrolls to retaliate?
Leaving that aside, I was expecting the story to be that May had managed to weaponise social media in the Western democracies against poor, horrible, friendless, unlovable, isolated, xenophobic, brexity little old us. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that the Remoaner flouncariat was in any way disappointed that it hasn't, at least yet, turned out that way.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The underlying truth is that May cannot follow through on her tough talk with Russia. There are no options beyond expelling a few diplomats. Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage. Furthermore, there is no political will in the country for military action against Russia. In my view, the outrage about this Salisbury incident is something being whipped up by the media and has no basis in popular opinion, outside forums like this which are not representative of the population at large.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
Is it just me or is Russia behaving as you’d expect a guilty party to?
Chemical attack on your soil, UK? No - wasn’t me —- perhaps you did it yourself! Plus various mocking tweets from the Russian embassy.
An innocent Russia would profess concern about this international outrage and offer all help to identify possible lines of enquiry.
I’m sad to say that May has not done enough today. Among other things, Russia has managed to weaponise social media against the Western democracies, and I see no serious recognition of that or attempt to do anything about it.
Its almost a classic plea. It didn't happen and if it did someone else did it and if they didn't it was self defence, and if it wasn't I was provoked and if I wasn't I was delusional at the time. There is not many stages left.
Yes agreed. Although I can entertain the possibility that someone other than the Russian state was responsible, I think their reaction nails them as the culprits.
IIRC Yulia Skripal is a Russian citizen until recently living in Moscow. If the Russians were innocent of the poisoning they'd surely be making a song and dance about this attack on their citizen?
There are several reasons, but let us take one that is close to many people's hearts, and particularly those on the left: disarmament.
We have very strict laws and controls on NBC weapons. Nuclear has been less successful of the the three, but biological and chemical controls have generally worked well. The sad thing is that the world has ignored breaches, particularly in Iraq and Syria, and that has weakened the entire NBC structure. After Miliband's stupidity over Syria (and I can put it worse than that), there will be other regimes looking into developing and potentially using B&C weapons, because they know they can use them with impunity.
If you believe in disarmament, then you need to react appropriately when people breach treaties. And that involves 'punishment' of varying types. Otherwise calls for disarmament becomes pointless, stupid bleating.
Turning our backs will just tell Putin and others that they can develop such weapons, and even use them. And that's obviously bad for us and the world.
This is why Corbyn's reaction is so incredibly dumb.
Fine words but what is the "appropriate" response ? What was it in Syria for example ? What was it when Saddam gassed the Kurds back in the 80s ?
How do we "punish" Russia ? Diplomatically, economically, culturally - yes, fine, but how effective would any of that really be ? Militarily - okay, what, how, when, where and how do you prevent escalation ?
This is the difficult stuff - the stuff that should keep politicians and political people awake at night. I've yet to hear of any response from anyone that is neither wholly over-the-top nor wholly ineffective.
The correct response is up to both individual nations and the community of nations.
It is the difficult stuff - and it is particularly difficult when we public plebs can't see all the possible reactions: i.e. stuff may go on behind the scenes.
Personally, I'll give he same response as I gave when people gave similar Quisling arguments over Syria. The response has to be appropriate to negate any advantage the use of the weapons gave them. In the case of Syria, that'd be denying Assad territory or harming his forces to that level. In this case, to damage Russia's ability to perform intelligence operations and to harm them financially.
Your reaction is to do nothing, and I fear you would see every possible reaction as either over-the-top or wholly ineffective. Worse, your reaction will just lead to other B&C attacks.
Presumably you'll be joining the army when we invade Russia? Or will you sit on your pompous arse and let some poor 18 year old do your fighting for you whilst calling other people quislings?
Fine words but what is the "appropriate" response ? What was it in Syria for example ? What was it when Saddam gassed the Kurds back in the 80s ?
How do we "punish" Russia ? Diplomatically, economically, culturally - yes, fine, but how effective would any of that really be? Militarily - okay, what, how, when, where and how do you prevent escalation ?
This is the difficult stuff - the stuff that should keep politicians and political people awake at night. I've yet to hear of any response from anyone that is neither wholly over-the-top nor wholly ineffective.
Very, if - and only if - we take international opinion with us; which is why this is very heartening
I think that there is more we could do on our own. For example we could seize the assets in the U.K. of all oligarchs that are linked to the Kremlin and invite them to prove that they came by these assets legitimately and not using the proceeds of crime.
We should exclude all such oligarchs from this country as well as their families. We are dealing with a mafiosi style bunch of crooks and thugs. We should stop pretending that we are dealing with anything other than a failed state. Normal diplomatic relations are simply not applicable.
Sigh. As I have said on here a thousand times....they largely have British or EU citizenship. You can't throw British or EU citizens out of their own country nor arbitrarily confiscate all their money. Slightly worrying to see a lawyer advocating such abuse of due process.
I don't think that is true but even if it were then our Proceeds of Crime legislation applies to our own citizens, does not require a conviction and very much puts the onus of proof on the person claiming to have legitimate funds.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
Presumably you'll be joining the army when we invade Russia? Or will you sit on your pompous arse and let some poor 18 year old do your fighting for you whilst calling other people quislings?
LOL. Why not address the points I'm making?
And besides, I'm not calling for invading Russia. That's a figment of your somewhat febrile imagination, and an indication you have somewhat lost an argument you weren't even part of.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The underlying truth is that May cannot follow through on her tough talk with Russia. There are no options beyond expelling a few diplomats. Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage. Furthermore, there is no political will in the country for military action against Russia. In my view, the outrage about this Salisbury incident is something being whipped up by the media and has no basis in popular opinion, outside forums like this which are not representative of the population at large.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
+1
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
Fine words but what is the "appropriate" response ? What was it in Syria for example ? What was it when Saddam gassed the Kurds back in the 80s ?
How do we "punish" Russia ? Diplomatically, economically, culturally - yes, fine, but how effective would any of that really be? Militarily - okay, what, how, when, where and how do you prevent escalation ?
This is the difficult stuff - the stuff that should keep politicians and political people awake at night. I've yet to hear of any response from anyone that is neither wholly over-the-top nor wholly ineffective.
Very, if - and only if - we take international opinion with us; which is why this is very heartening
I think that there is more we could do on our own. For example we could seize the assets in the U.K. of all oligarchs that are linked to the Kremlin and invite them to prove that they came by these assets legitimately and not using the proceeds of crime.
We should exclude all such oligarchs from this country as well as their families. We are dealing with a mafiosi style bunch of crooks and thugs. We should stop pretending that we are dealing with anything other than a failed state. Normal diplomatic relations are simply not applicable.
Sigh. As I have said on here a thousand times....they largely have British or EU citizenship. You can't throw British or EU citizens out of their own country nor arbitrarily confiscate all their money. Slightly worrying to see a lawyer advocating such abuse of due process.
I don't think that is true but even if it were then our Proceeds of Crime legislation applies to our own citizens, does not require a conviction and very much puts the onus of proof on the person claiming to have legitimate funds.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The underlying truth is that May cannot follow through on her tough talk with Russia. There are no options beyond expelling a few diplomats. Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage. Furthermore, there is no political will in the country for military action against Russia. In my view, the outrage about this Salisbury incident is something being whipped up by the media and has no basis in popular opinion, outside forums like this which are not representative of the population at large.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
+1
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
I would just like to point out to CCHQ that I am acting as Felix's agent in this matter and Felix will require a fee before you start using on your literature ;-)
As a true Tory thru and thru my services require neither fee nor honours!
This is exactly why you need an agent ......
I think talk of agents in the light of recent events has an unfortunate connotation...especially when one is of a nervous disposition
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
Our FCO has shrunk by 25% in the last decade, and we are shortly losing our amphibious capability and 2 batallions of Marines. We could not field more than a Brigade as an expeditionary force. Russia may be a paper tiger, but we are too.
One of the key aspects in the collapse of Communism was Reagan's arms race. Trying to keep up while fighting in Afghanistan broke the Soviets economically. It is a strategy that would work again. We should fund and equip, our proxies (Ukraine in particular). Losiing the Donbass would break Putins strongman image, he would have to divert resources there that would bleed him dry. I am sure that the Ukranians would enjoy our support and happily oblige.
Presumably you'll be joining the army when we invade Russia? Or will you sit on your pompous arse and let some poor 18 year old do or wholly ineffective. Worse, your reac your fighting for you whilst calling other people quislings?
Non-combatants traditionally support our troops in Russia by knitting for them - balaclavas and cardigans in particular - and arranging shipments of left foot boots. But I think, synthetic indignation aside, that we are unlikely to go mano a mano with the Russki. The suggestion you are replying to, was to damage them in the finance and intelligence worlds.
There are several reasons, but let us take one that is close to many people's hearts, and particularly those on the left: disarmament.
Turning our backs will just tell Putin and others that they can develop such weapons, and even use them. And that's obviously bad for us and the world.
This is why Corbyn's reaction is so incredibly dumb.
Fine words but what is the "appropriate" response ? What was it in Syria for example ? What was it when Saddam gassed the Kurds back in the 80s ?
How do we "punish" Russia ? Diplomatically, economically, culturally - yes, fine, but how effective would any of that really be? Militarily - okay, what, how, when, where and how do you prevent escalation ?
This is the difficult stuff - the stuff that should keep politicians and political people awake at night. I've yet to hear of any response from anyone that is neither wholly over-the-top nor wholly ineffective.
Very, if - and only if - we take international opinion with us; which is why this is very heartening
I think that there is more we could do on our own. For example we could seize the assets in the U.K. of all oligarchs that are linked to the Kremlin and invite them to prove that they came by these assets legitimately and not using the proceeds of crime.
We should exclude all such oligarchs from this country as well as their families. We are dealing with a mafiosi style bunch of crooks and thugs. We should stop pretending that we are dealing with anything other than a failed state. Normal diplomatic relations are simply not applicable.
Russia is not a failed state. Ridiculous. It's an aggressive major power using main force. Is this not what America does when it drones weddings in Afghanistan in the hope it might take out a terrorist?
Corbyn is a quisling, and a fool. Yes.
But the West has to admit it does not have total moral superiority here. We kill our enemies extra-judicially, with drones, and we kill kids by mistake sometimes. Our argument is that we have no choice. There is no government in these places to work with to enforce justice.
But the father of a dead three year old in Pakistan, accidentally droned by Obama or Trump, might not see the nuances of our argument.
When the US start using drones in Western democracies I might say you had a point. They use them in “shithole” nations where there is no chance of extradition. Including the shithole parts of Pakistan.
I can't really see this causing Corbyn much trouble internally in the Labour party. The Labour MP's that have been mentioned or have signed the EDM for example seem to be mainly in the progress group within Labour, which is basically the Blairite grouping within Labour.
They don't generally have much pull with the members and it seems very unlikely that many of the other MPs will follow their lead after the events of the last couple of years.
It is very unlikely they would resign the whip, to be honest in the case of a few of them I think the membership would be quite happy to see it. I can't imagine any of them holding their seats if they resign the whip and fight the next election under a different party banner or independent.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
Its not as important as cash where our GDP is just over $2.6trn and theirs is just under $1.3trn. The main difference is that their State spends more than 17% of its budget on the military and we spend 4.8%. This has the effect their defence spending is currently roughly 2x ours even although we have twice as much money.
Presumably you'll be joining the army when we invade Russia? Or will you sit on your pompous arse and let some poor 18 year old do or wholly ineffective. Worse, your reac your fighting for you whilst calling other people quislings?
Non-combatants traditionally support our troops in Russia by knitting for them - balaclavas and cardigans in particular - and arranging shipments of left foot boots. But I think, synthetic indignation aside, that we are unlikely to go mano a mano with the Russki. The suggestion you are replying to, was to damage them in the finance and intelligence worlds.
I come back and there is still fighting in the war room....
We could always do a trump and butcher a few hundred Russian mercenaries in Syria...
I can't really see this causing Corbyn much trouble internally in the Labour party. The Labour MP's that have been mentioned or have signed the EDM for example seem to be mainly in the progress group within Labour, which is basically the Blairite grouping within Labour.
They don't generally have much pull with the members and it seems very unlikely that many of the other MPs will follow their lead after the events of the last couple of years.
It is very unlikely they would resign the whip, to be honest in the case of a few of them I think the membership would be quite happy to see it. I can't imagine any of them holding their seats if they resign the whip and fight the next election under a different party banner or independent.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
+1
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
If childish solution
The representative of a criminal state should be charged as a criminal. If you find that chilidish, so be it.
A terrorist attack was committed on our soil. And you think arresting the nominal head of that state on our soil is a childish act. Fair enough.
Fine words but what is the "appropriate" response ? What was it in Syria for example ? What was it when Saddam gassed the Kurds back in the 80s ?
How do we "punish" Russia ? Diplomatically, economically, culturally - yes, fine, but how effective would any of that really be? Militarily - okay, what, how, when, where and how do you prevent escalation ?
This is the difficult stuff - the stuff that should keep politicians and political people awake at night. I've yet to hear of any response from anyone that is neither wholly over-the-top nor wholly ineffective.
Very, if - and only if - we take international opinion with us; which is why this is very heartening
I think that there is more we could do on our own. For example we could seize the assets in the U.K. of all oligarchs that are linked to the Kremlin and invite them to prove that they came by these assets legitimately and not using the proceeds of crime.
We should exclude all such oligarchs from this country as well as their families. We are dealing with a mafiosi style bunch of crooks and thugs. We should stop pretending that we are dealing with anything other than a failed state. Normal diplomatic relations are simply not applicable.
Sigh. As I have said on here a thousand times....they largely have British or EU citizenship. You can't throw British or EU citizens out of their own country nor arbitrarily confiscate all their money. Slightly worrying to see a lawyer advocating such abuse of due process.
I don't think that is true but even if it were then our Proceeds of Crime legislation applies to our own citizens, does not require a conviction and very much puts the onus of proof on the person claiming to have legitimate funds.
There's also unexplained wealth orders.
Yep, the idea that we are unable to address this is ridiculous. It is more a question of whether the will is there.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
+1
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
If childish solution
The representative of a criminal state should be charged as a criminal. If you find that chilidish, so be it.
A terrorist attack was committed on our soil. And you think arresting the nominal head of that state on our soil is a childish act. Fair enough.
The Russians would obviously immediately arrest all our diplomatic staff in Russia.
There are several reasons, but let us take one that is close to many people's hearts, and particularly those on the left: disarmament.
Turning our backs will just tell Putin and others that they can develop such weapons, and even use them. And that's obviously bad for us and the world.
This is why Corbyn's reaction is so incredibly dumb.
Fine words but what is the "appropriate" ffective.
Very, if - and only if - we take international opinion with us; which is why this is very heartening
I think that there is more we could do on our own. For example we could seize the assets in the U.K. of all oligarchs that are linked to the Kremlin and invite them to prove that they came by these assets legitimately and not using the proceeds of crime.
We should exclude all such oligarchs from this country as well as their families. We are dealing with a mafiosi style bunch of crooks and thugs. We should stop pretending that we are dealing with anything other than a failed state. Normal diplomatic relations are simply not applicable.
Russia is not a failed state. Ridiculous. It's an aggressive major power using main force. Is this not what America does when it drones weddings in Afghanistan in the hope it might take out a terrorist?
Corbyn is a quisling, and a fool. Yes.
But the West has to admit it does not have total moral superiority here. We kill our enemies extra-judicially, with drones, and we kill kids by mistake sometimes. Our argument is that we have no choice. There is no government in these places to work with to enforce justice.
But the father of a dead three year old in Pakistan, accidentally droned by Obama or Trump, might not see the nuances of our argument.
When the US start using drones in Western democracies I might say you had a point. They use them in “shithole” nations where there is no chance of extradition. Including the shithole parts of Pakistan.
There is no doubt that the US use of proxies for torture, covert prisons and extrajudicial killings by drone and special forces in 3rd countries has lost a lot of moral highground.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
Our FCO has shrunk by 25% in the last decade, and we are shortly losing our amphibious capability and 2 batallions of Marines. We could not field more than a Brigade as an expeditionary force. Russia may be a paper tiger, but we are too.
One of the key aspects in the collapse of Communism was Reagan's arms race. Trying to keep up while fighting in Afghanistan broke the Soviets economically. It is a strategy that would work again. We should fund and equip, our proxies (Ukraine in particular). Losiing the Donbass would break Putins strongman image, he would have to divert resources there that would bleed him dry. I am sure that the Ukranians would enjoy our support and happily oblige.
I agree. We need to seriously revisit our defence spending in light of the threats we are facing.
I can't really see this causing Corbyn much trouble internally in the Labour party. The Labour MP's that have been mentioned or have signed the EDM for example seem to be mainly in the progress group within Labour, which is basically the Blairite grouping within Labour.
They don't generally have much pull with the members and it seems very unlikely that many of the other MPs will follow their lead after the events of the last couple of years.
It is very unlikely they would resign the whip, to be honest in the case of a few of them I think the membership would be quite happy to see it. I can't imagine any of them holding their seats if they resign the whip and fight the next election under a different party banner or independent.
Is Jezza too weak to have them deselected ?
It is pretty much up to the local members, unless they actually break the rules and are kicked out because of it, which I think is pretty rare then only local members can deselect them or not.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
+1
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
If childish solution
The representative of a criminal state should be charged as a criminal. If you find that chilidish, so be it.
A terrorist attack was committed on our soil. And you think arresting the nominal head of that state on our soil is a childish act. Fair enough.
The Russians would obviously immediately arrest all our diplomatic staff in Russia.
Good. I believe that situation is covered under Article 5 of the Nato Treaty.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
+1
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
If childish solution
The representative of a criminal state should be charged as a criminal. If you find that chilidish, so be it.
A terrorist attack was committed on our soil. And you think arresting the nominal head of that state on our soil is a childish act. Fair enough.
I think they have revoked their own Diplomatic Status by state sponsored attempted murder.
Are we really going to allow them to walk out of the country, like the killers of WPC Fletcher?
MI5 identfied the 23 expulsions to the PM as Russian spies. They had been monitored and included some acting as journalists
@MattChorley: Joke doing the rounds among Labour MPs: “May announces the expulsion of 23 Russian diplomats, she has named Seumas Milne, Andrew Murray and Chris Williamson with the names of the other 20 announced later.” This is all going v well
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
+1
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
If childish solution
The representative of a criminal state should be charged as a criminal. If you find that chilidish, so be it.
A terrorist attack was committed on our soil. And you think arresting the nominal head of that state on our soil is a childish act. Fair enough.
The Russians would obviously immediately arrest all our diplomatic staff in Russia.
Good. I believe that situation is covered under Article 5 of the Nato Treaty.
And a chemical weapons attack on our soil isn't? We could already invoke Article 5 if we were confident that NATO would respond positively.
MI5 identfied the 23 expulsions to the PM as Russian spies. They had been monitored and included some acting as journalists
@MattChorley: Joke doing the rounds among Labour MPs: “May announces the expulsion of 23 Russian diplomats, she has named Seumas Milne, Andrew Murray and Chris Williamson with the names of the other 20 announced later.” This is all going v well
He failed his A-levels, he failed polytechnic, and he had an undistinguished career as a housing officer before getting a safe seat where he had an undistinguished career as a backbencher where his chief energy seems to have been signing literally hundreds of EDMs every year. Every political group he has organised or led either failed entirely or was unimportant when its goals were achieved. It's hard to believe this is accidental.
If therefore he is doing something rather dumb (and he is) we don't need to wonder if Milne is in the pay of the FSB. We just need to remember Corbyn, like the egregious Wisemann, is utterly clueless in what he's doing and will therefore usually do the wrong thing.
I can't agree with your assessment of Corbyn.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The unde
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
I respectively suggest you are out of touch with the idea Salisbury is being whipped up the media and is hugely insulting to the people living in Salisbury and other areas affected.
This will escalate into International condemnation of Russia and you think the ordinary people will not notice
Have you been to Salisbury recently Big_G? Life carries on much as usual - some trade impact but not as much as caused by the snow the week before.
I'm not trying to dimish the seriousness of the Skripal attack but let's not exaggerate - Salisbury is still a thriving, comfortable, lovely, minor city in England.
Not the way businesses in Salisbury see it Ben
Yes, but is it Sawls-bury or Souls-bury? That’s the key question.
Have people been saying it different ways? It'd not even occur to me it could be a difficult one to pronounce.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
+1
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
If childish solution
The representative of a criminal state should be charged as a criminal. If you find that chilidish, so be it.
A terrorist attack was committed on our soil. And you think arresting the nominal head of that state on our soil is a childish act. Fair enough.
I think they have revoked their own Diplomatic Status by state sponsored attempted murder.
Are we really going to allow them to walk out of the country, like the killers of WPC Fletcher?
Tiny problem with international law - you can revoke diplomatic status but the possessors retain it (in effect) until after they have left the country.
You can't arrest diplomats. You can only throw them out.
He failed his A-levels, he failed polytechnic, and he had an undistinguished career as a housing officer before getting a safe seat where he had an undistinguished career as a backbencher where his chief energy seems to have been signing literally hundreds of EDMs every year. Every political group he has organised or led either failed entirely or was unimportant when its goals were achieved. It's hard to believe this is accidental.
If therefore he is doing something rather dumb (and he is) we don't need to wonder if Milne is in the pay of the FSB. We just need to remember Corbyn, like the egregious Wisemann, is utterly clueless in what he's doing and will therefore usually do the wrong thing.
I can't agree with your assessment of Corbyn.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The unde
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
I respectively suggest you are out of touch with the idea Salisbury is being whipped up the media and is hugely insulting to the people living in Salisbury and other areas affected.
This will escalate into International condemnation of Russia and you think the ordinary people will not notice
Have you been to Salisbury recently Big_G? Life carries on much as usual - some trade impact but not as much as caused by the snow the week before.
I'm not trying to dimish the seriousness of the Skripal attack but let's not exaggerate - Salisbury is still a thriving, comfortable, lovely, minor city in England.
Not the way businesses in Salisbury see it Ben
Yes, but is it Sawls-bury or Souls-bury? That’s the key question.
Have people been saying it different ways? It'd not even occur to me it could be a difficult one to pronounce.
Salisbury is quite a pleasant little city not far from Washington DC. I suspect that familiarity with the pronunciation comes from that Salisbury rathar than the Wilts one.
If we want to do something meaningful, we should start by cancelling all of our plans to shutdown our coal power plants and look at bringing any that are already shut - but not demolished - back on line*. It's far less showy than a bunch of new landing craft but would hurt their economy more.
"Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
Its not as important as cash where our GDP is just over $2.6trn and theirs is just under $1.3trn. The main difference is that their State spends more than 17% of its budget on the military and we spend 4.8%. This has the effect their defence spending is currently roughly 2x ours even although we have twice as much money.
The reason PPP is important is that Russian defence spending is largely internal, at Russian labour costs. The Russian GDP (PPP) is $4trn; ours is $2.9trn according to the World Bank.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The underlying truth is that May cannot follow through on her tough talk with Russia. There are no options beyond expelling a few diplomats. Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage. Furthermore, there is no political will in the country for military action against Russia. In my view, the outrage about this Salisbury incident is something being whipped up by the media and has no basis in popular opinion, outside forums like this which are not representative of the population at large.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
The suggestion that we are in any way isolated is bordering on clinical delusion.
Leaving the EU is, by its very definition, choosing isolation over being in a political union.
The idea of a transatlantic special relationship peddled by people like Liam Fox and other Brexiteers at the time of the referendum has been disproven by Trump. It was, in my view, nonsense anyway; because to a large degree our influence in the US was based on our leverage within the EU, which we got as a member state.
As I see it, we are now isolated from both the EU, and the US, and this was always going to be an inevitable consequence of Brexit.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
+1
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
If childish solution
The representative of a criminal state should be charged as a criminal. If you find that chilidish, so be it.
A terrorist attack was committed on our soil. And you think arresting the nominal head of that state on our soil is a childish act. Fair enough.
I think they have revoked their own Diplomatic Status by state sponsored attempted murder.
The thing is, we are playing by Queensberry Rules while they are throwing sand in our eyes and kicking us in the spuds.
When a state ceases to act by the rules of proper behaviour - it ceases to be a state and should be regarded as a criminal organisation. Without wishing to invoke Godwin's Law, I believe a similar argument was made at Nuremberg.
To offer the Russians the protection afforded to the representatives of a nation state while they behave as criminals makes a mockery of us all. Let us call them what they are - criminals and terrorists.
If it had been an Isis operative unleashing a nerve agent attack on the Tube I doubt many here would be as equivocal in their response as they have been today on Russia's behaviour.
Tiny problem with international law - you can revoke diplomatic status but the possessors retain it (in effect) until after they have left the country.
You can't arrest diplomats. You can only throw them out.
Precisely my point. We play by the rules while they act like criminals. Revoke their diplomatic immunity and charge them as accessories.
I think that a fair summary. Today's measures are the perfunctory bare minimum, but it is hard to see what more could be done. Austerity has not just hollowed out the welfare state, it has hollowed out our armed forces, our diplomatic service, our police, and the inland revenue.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
+1
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
If childish solution
The representative of a criminal state should be charged as a criminal. If you find that chilidish, so be it.
A terrorist attack was committed on our soil. And you think arresting the nominal head of that state on our soil is a childish act. Fair enough.
I think they have revoked their own Diplomatic Status by state sponsored attempted murder.
Are we really going to allow them to walk out of the country, like the killers of WPC Fletcher?
Tiny problem with international law - you can revoke diplomatic status but the possessors retain it (in effect) until after they have left the country.
You can't arrest diplomats. You can only throw them out.
State sponsored use of chemical weapons is a violation of International Law that justifies arrests.
Corbyn is no fool. He has continuously made smart judgements and proved everyone wrong. His judgement on the Russia situation is smart. He is a model politician for the Trump era. I don't agree with him, but he is smart.
The underlying truth is that May cannot follow through on her tough talk with Russia. There are no options beyond expelling a few diplomats. Post Brexit and in the Trump era, we cut a truly pathetic figure on the world stage. Furthermore, there is no political will in the country for military action against Russia. In my view, the outrage about this Salisbury incident is something being whipped up by the media and has no basis in popular opinion, outside forums like this which are not representative of the population at large.
There will be more retailiations and tests from Russia, which we will increasingly reveal our impotence, and (in the minds of the electorate), the truth in Corbyn's position.
Of course, this is not the same as supporting Corbyn, I just think that the situation will play in to his hands, and it would be very unwise to underestimate him.
Not too sure what you are getting at.
If you want to persuade me that our status as a world power is in the ascendancy, go ahead. The facts that I see rather suggest otherwise. Our military is exhausted, our foreign and diplomatic service is massively underfunded and has had no strategic direction for the past 8 years. Any military action of any significance is voted down in parliament. Our intelligence services are massively overstretched, due to domestic terrorism. So, we are nowhere near as much use to other powers as we used to be.
We were able to engineer sanctions against Russia after the Crimea episode essentially via the EU.
As an isolated nation state, we have few or no options.
The suggestion that we are in any way isolated is bordering on clinical delusion.
Leaving the EU is, by its very definition, choosing isolation over being in a political union.
The idea of a transatlantic special relationship peddled by people like Liam Fox and other Brexiteers at the time of the referendum has been disproven by Trump. It was, in my view, nonsense anyway; because to a large degree our influence in the US was based on our leverage within the EU, which we got as a member state.
As I see it, we are now isolated from both the EU, and the US, and this was always going to be an inevitable consequence of Brexit.
Russia was the one isolated in the UN not the UK who received widescale support
Russia just stated UK has means of producing the chemical used itself
Very likely true but irrelevant; designed to muddy the waters of course.
Do you really believe that and by implication we would use it on ourselves
For most chemicals, the "means of producing them" is some other, more readily available, chemicals, and a chemistry lab, and, yes, we have those things. And I'd hope we were synthesizing shedloads of the stuff so that we can develop and test ways of detecting, and protecting ourselves from, it. Otherwise what are paying those twats at Porton Down for?
It is heartening that Russia has said something so stupid; they look rattled.
Of course, that is very much what Porton Down is for, though shedloads is really not necessary for the purpose. One gets the sense that these new agents are very little deployed, and that is possibly the limitation on our defending against them, they may not have previously been made available to the UK in sample form, if I can put that slant on the attack for a moment, most prior identification would possibly have been from documentary espionage, guessing, synthesis and testing and sifting out the things that weren't functional agents.
Porton Down probably gained a pretty good idea what sort of chemical structures Russia were looking into, but may not have 100% known which chemicals carried which codenames. Half a day of pretty standard analysis with some samples from Salisbury will certainly have advanced their cause.
Comments
Chemical attack on your soil, UK? No - wasn’t me —- perhaps you did it yourself! Plus various mocking tweets from the Russian embassy.
An innocent Russia would profess concern about this international outrage and offer all help to identify possible lines of enquiry.
I’m sad to say that May has not done enough today. Among other things, Russia has managed to weaponise social media against the Western democracies, and I see no serious recognition of that or attempt to do anything about it.
That’s the key question.
- GFC and consequent lack on money. Both military and FCO underfunded.
- Lack of interest in foreign policy generally from Tory leadership since 2010.
- Intense focus on internal issues (immigration, austerity)
- Scottish ref showed how fragile union was/is
- Brexit
- Trump
- Continued hangover from Iraq and Afghanistan
Against that we’ve seen over that period the increasing centrality of London in the global economic and cultural spheres, although Brexit has dented that too and calls it into question.
It is heartening that Russia has said something so stupid; they look rattled.
A reversal of Armed forces cuts, and significant investment in our spooks would be a good move. On top of that I would blatently and overtly help the Ukranian government.
Rather than expel the 23 Russian spies we should remand them in custody for conspiracy to murder.
EDIT to add
Acting like a dictatorial arsehole won't enhance or case.
https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/973977402509615105?s=21
Poor old Labour - reverse takeover by the North London chapter of Branch Davidian.
Leaving that aside, I was expecting the story to be that May had managed to weaponise social media in the Western democracies against poor, horrible, friendless, unlovable, isolated, xenophobic, brexity little old us. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that the Remoaner flouncariat was in any way disappointed that it hasn't, at least yet, turned out that way.
https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/russia/uk
IIRC Yulia Skripal is a Russian citizen until recently living in Moscow. If the Russians were innocent of the poisoning they'd surely be making a song and dance about this attack on their citizen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
And besides, I'm not calling for invading Russia. That's a figment of your somewhat febrile imagination, and an indication you have somewhat lost an argument you weren't even part of.
A brilliant solution.
If it were me I'd revoke his diplomatic immunity and charge the Russian ambassador as well.
1.30 Samcro
2.10 Presenting Percy
2.50 Voix Du Reve
3.30 Altior
4.10 The Last Samuri
4.50 Esprit de Somoza
5.30 Rhinestone
3 short price results. The less said the better.
Thanks to PtP for passing on the tip from Yokel in the last. Repaired some of the damage.
One of the key aspects in the collapse of Communism was Reagan's arms race. Trying to keep up while fighting in Afghanistan broke the Soviets economically. It is a strategy that would work again. We should fund and equip, our proxies (Ukraine in particular). Losiing the Donbass would break Putins strongman image, he would have to divert resources there that would bleed him dry. I am sure that the Ukranians would enjoy our support and happily oblige.
They don't generally have much pull with the members and it seems very unlikely that many of the other MPs will follow their lead after the events of the last couple of years.
It is very unlikely they would resign the whip, to be honest in the case of a few of them I think the membership would be quite happy to see it. I can't imagine any of them holding their seats if they resign the whip and fight the next election under a different party banner or independent.
The main difference is that their State spends more than 17% of its budget on the military and we spend 4.8%. This has the effect their defence spending is currently roughly 2x ours even although we have twice as much money.
We could always do a trump and butcher a few hundred Russian mercenaries in Syria...
A terrorist attack was committed on our soil. And you think arresting the nominal head of that state on our soil is a childish act. Fair enough.
Are we really going to allow them to walk out of the country, like the killers of WPC Fletcher?
You can't arrest diplomats. You can only throw them out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury,_Maryland
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/973978391312502785
*If burning coal is ok for the French and Germans then it's ok for us too.
The idea of a transatlantic special relationship peddled by people like Liam Fox and other Brexiteers at the time of the referendum has been disproven by Trump. It was, in my view, nonsense anyway; because to a large degree our influence in the US was based on our leverage within the EU, which we got as a member state.
As I see it, we are now isolated from both the EU, and the US, and this was always going to be an inevitable consequence of Brexit.
When a state ceases to act by the rules of proper behaviour - it ceases to be a state and should be regarded as a criminal organisation. Without wishing to invoke Godwin's Law, I believe a similar argument was made at Nuremberg.
To offer the Russians the protection afforded to the representatives of a nation state while they behave as criminals makes a mockery of us all. Let us call them what they are - criminals and terrorists.
If it had been an Isis operative unleashing a nerve agent attack on the Tube I doubt many here would be as equivocal in their response as they have been today on Russia's behaviour. Precisely my point. We play by the rules while they act like criminals. Revoke their diplomatic immunity and charge them as accessories.
NEW THREAD
Porton Down probably gained a pretty good idea what sort of chemical structures Russia were looking into, but may not have 100% known which chemicals carried which codenames. Half a day of pretty standard analysis with some samples from Salisbury will certainly have advanced their cause.