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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Meanwhile from the White House as the staff turnover continues

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  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Foxy said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    Are you suggesting that Mrs May requires gender reassignment surgery?

    Point of order, to save you from transactivists, it's gender 'confirmation' surgery.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    edited March 2018

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    We were told that things will be done about which we cannot be told. Whether said things will happen and whether we can or cannot be told that things have actually happened about which we cannot be told, is another matter.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    IanB2 said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    We were told that things will be done about which we cannot be told. Whether said things will happen and whether we can or cannot be told that things have actually happened about which we cannot be told, is another matter.
    The thing that will happen about which we cannot yet be told, that will hit Putin where it hurts, is cancelling Brexit.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,879
    edited March 2018
    Sandpit said:


    Indeed, we don’t want to start a war but we have to react to an extreme provocation or else they will just keep poking.

    Just catching up on yesterday in Parliament, with the one obvious exception pretty much unanimity for the government’s actions, and a huge amount of international backing from them too. Obviously a lot of work gone on behind the scenes in the past few days. Some of the harshest responses will be convert or investigatory in nature and weren’t announced yesterday.

    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    I haven't heard any other practical actions being suggested. A military response is clearly not on the cards. Plundering assets would have a certain satisfaction, but it will have to be tailored, rather than on the base assumption that every Russian in London is a bad Russian. No doubt some of these London Russians are far from admirers of Putin, and will be ongoing sources of information about his regime. We need that source of intel.

    Putin's criminal enterprise has vast reserves of finance and state spying apparatus to do with as it pleases. It has no scruples, up to and including using nerve agents abroad. It operates by a fear and ruthlessness that is unknown to those spouting off in a UK chat room. In Putin's Russia, just making these comments would be extremely bad news for your health. Or that of your family. Maybe we aren't even safe making them on here.

    But what we can do is celebrate our free speech, even by allowing the bat-shit crazy to be heard as they shill for that wretched regime.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    Indeed, we don’t want to start a war but we have to react to an extreme provocation or else they will just keep poking.

    Just catching up on yesterday in Parliament, with the one obvious exception pretty much unanimity for the government’s actions, and a huge amount of international backing from them too. Obviously a lot of work gone on behind the scenes in the past few days. Some of the harshest responses will be convert or investigatory in nature and weren’t announced yesterday.

    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
    Certainly we need to follow the money, there’s billions of roubles in London and other British territories and friendly nations, which would make a difference to a lot of people close to Putin if it were frozen.

    WC boycott needs to be properly organised, with at least a dozen nations involved and announced at the last minute for maximum effect. The negotiations for this are probably going on at a diplomatic level behind the scenes - for example the FA and TV companies will need looking after if England withdraw, and similar considerations will also be the case in other countries. I think that, deep down, a number of Western nations would rather not go to Russia or Qatar, and a good opportunity to facilitate that has just presented itself.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Floater said:

    Y0kel said:

    1. Those who seem to think of the attempted killing in Salisbury had anything to do with Russian domestic political concerns are way off the mark. This is global geopolitics and gangster state stuff at work. This idea about Russian domestic politics is born of a Western political bubble outlook which thinks everything is framed with PR optics. Domestic political considerations will have had no bearing on the decision to attack.

    2. People still knocking on about doubts should bear in mind that the Novichok range and their later versions have not been recorded as having turned up in other states active CBW arsenals. That reduces the possible options somewhat. Mis-interpretation of the weapon is possible but unlikely. Unless you want to take the view that the British government is outright lying.

    3. No one should be surprised by Corbyn's reaction. The guy fundamentally hates the country he is in and has a problem with liberal democracy.

    4. This is the first time, in at least the last 6 to 8 years that any Western government has actually openly said 'fuck this, we are calling you out' and backed it up. It is, however, only a start, the UK should make it a multi year mission to strangle the current Russian regime and its dodge associates as much as it possibly can. Passivity doesn't work.

    5. Again, someone needs to track Skripal's daughter's movements and associations to help them, right down to the passenger list on her plane journeys. I'll be damned if there isn't something of interest there.

    Bravo
    Idiotoc guff from a wannabe internet hardman whose so-called expert opinion has proven again and again to be delusional ultra-nationalist cobblers.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,879
    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    Indeed, we don’t want to start a war but we have to react to an extreme provocation or else they will just keep poking.

    Just catching up on yesterday in Parliament, with the one obvious exception pretty much unanimity for the government’s actions, and a huge amount of international backing from them too. Obviously a lot of work gone on behind the scenes in the past few days. Some of the harshest responses will be convert or investigatory in nature and weren’t announced yesterday.

    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
    Certainly we need to follow the money, there’s billions of roubles in London and other British territories and friendly nations, which would make a difference to a lot of people close to Putin if it were frozen.

    WC boycott needs to be properly organised, with at least a dozen nations involved and announced at the last minute for maximum effect. The negotiations for this are probably going on at a diplomatic level behind the scenes - for example the FA and TV companies will need looking after if England withdraw, and similar considerations will also be the case in other countries. I think that, deep down, a number of Western nations would rather not go to Russia or Qatar, and a good opportunity to facilitate that has just presented itself.
    I don’t know that announcing a boycott at the last minute is a good idea.
    In any case I doubt that any of this is going to happen.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    IanB2 said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    We were told that things will be done about which we cannot be told. Whether said things will happen and whether we can or cannot be told that things have actually happened about which we cannot be told, is another matter.
    The thing that will happen about which we cannot yet be told, that will hit Putin where it hurts, is cancelling Brexit.
    Wibble.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,547
    Unilever goes Dutch...
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920
    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    Indeed, we don’t want to start a war but we have to react to an extreme provocation or else they will just keep poking.

    Just catching up on yesterday in Parliament, with the one obvious exception pretty much unanimity for the government’s actions, and a huge amount of international backing from them too. Obviously a lot of work gone on behind the scenes in the past few days. Some of the harshest responses will be convert or investigatory in nature and weren’t announced yesterday.

    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
    Certainly we need to follow the money, there’s billions of roubles in London and other British territories and friendly nations, which would make a difference to a lot of people close to Putin if it were frozen.

    WC boycott needs to be properly organised, with at least a dozen nations involved and announced at the last minute for maximum effect. The negotiations for this are probably going on at a diplomatic level behind the scenes - for example the FA and TV companies will need looking after if England withdraw, and similar considerations will also be the case in other countries. I think that, deep down, a number of Western nations would rather not go to Russia or Qatar, and a good opportunity to facilitate that has just presented itself.
    I don’t know that announcing a boycott at the last minute is a good idea.
    In any case I doubt that any of this is going to happen.
    A world cup boycott would be effective if the UK could call on other European nations - Germany particularly - to join. Unfortunately, the self-harming decision to wilfully diminish our influence in Europe has clearly ruled that out as a possibility.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    Indeed, we don’t want to start a war but we have to react to an extreme provocation or else they will just keep poking.

    Just catching up on yesterday in Parliament, with the one obvious exception pretty much unanimity for the government’s actions, and a huge amount of international backing from them too. Obviously a lot of work gone on behind the scenes in the past few days. Some of the harshest responses will be convert or investigatory in nature and weren’t announced yesterday.

    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
    Certainly we need to follow the money, there’s billions of roubles in London and other British territories and friendly nations, which would make a difference to a lot of people close to Putin if it were frozen.

    WC boycott needs to be properly organised, with at least a dozen nations involved and announced at the last minute for maximum effect. The negotiations for this are probably going on at a diplomatic level behind the scenes - for example the FA and TV companies will need looking after if England withdraw, and similar considerations will also be the case in other countries. I think that, deep down, a number of Western nations would rather not go to Russia or Qatar, and a good opportunity to facilitate that has just presented itself.
    I don’t know that announcing a boycott at the last minute is a good idea.
    In any case I doubt that any of this is going to happen.
    If England pull out and are replaced by Italy then Putin will just laugh at us.

    It needs a lot of matches cancelled and a lot of big names not there, if it’s to be effective at humiliating Russia.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,879
    edited March 2018
    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    Indeed, we don’t want to start a war but we have to react to an extreme provocation or else they will just keep poking.

    Just catching up on yesterday in Parliament, with the one obvious exception pretty much unanimity for the government’s actions, and a huge amount of international backing from them too. Obviously a lot of work gone on behind the scenes in the past few days. Some of the harshest responses will be convert or investigatory in nature and weren’t announced yesterday.

    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
    Certainly we need to follow the money, there’s billions of roubles in London and other British territories and friendly nations, which would make a difference to a lot of people close to Putin if it were frozen.

    WC boycott needs to be properly organised, with at least a dozen nations involved and announced at the last minute for maximum effect. The negotiations for this are probably going on at a diplomatic level behind the scenes - for example the FA and TV companies will need looking after if England withdraw, and similar considerations will also be the case in other countries. I think that, deep down, a number of Western nations would rather not go to Russia or Qatar, and a good opportunity to facilitate that has just presented itself.
    I don’t know that announcing a boycott at the last minute is a good idea.
    In any case I doubt that any of this is going to happen.
    If England pull out and are replaced by Italy then Putin will just laugh at us.

    It needs a lot of matches cancelled and a lot of big names not there, if it’s to be effective at humiliating Russia.
    Yes. But domestically - cancelling a world cup the day before for something that happened months ago is going to go down pretty badly.

    If she wanted to boycott she should quickly get a few other countries to agree, announce and then try and pressure others to join in, so there are increasing, rolling numbers of nations cancelling/dropping out.

    *He says - having never organized a boycott of anything never mind a world cup*
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Trump on his meeting with Trudeau.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2018/03/14/in-fundraising-speech-trump-says-he-made-up-facts-in-meeting-with-justin-trudeau/

    “Trudeau came to see me. He’s a good guy, Justin. He said, ‘No, no, we have no trade deficit with you, we have none. Donald, please,’ ” Trump said, mimicking Trudeau, according to audio obtained by The Washington Post. “Nice guy, good-looking guy, comes in — ‘Donald, we have no trade deficit.’ He’s very proud because everybody else, you know, we’re getting killed.

    “... So, he’s proud. I said, ‘Wrong, Justin, you do.’ I didn’t even know. ... I had no idea. I just said, ‘You’re wrong.’ You know why? Because we’re so stupid. … And I thought they were smart. I said, ‘You’re wrong, Justin.’ He said, ‘Nope, we have no trade deficit.’ I said, ‘Well, in that case, I feel differently,’ I said, ‘but I don’t believe it.’ I sent one of our guys out, his guy, my guy, they went out, I said, ‘Check, because I can’t believe it.’

    ‘Well, sir, you’re actually right. We have no deficit, but that doesn’t include energy and timber. … And when you do, we lose $17 billion a year.’ It’s incredible.”

    The Office of the United States Trade Representative says the United States has a trade surplus with Canada.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    Indeed, we don’t want to start a war but we have to react to an extreme provocation or else they will just keep poking.

    Just catching up on yesterday in Parliament, with the one obvious exception pretty much unanimity for the government’s actions, and a huge amount of international backing from them too. Obviously a lot of work gone on behind the scenes in the past few days. Some of the harshest responses will be convert or investigatory in nature and weren’t announced yesterday.

    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
    Certainly we need to follow the money, there’s billions of roubles in London and other British territories and friendly nations, which would make a difference to a lot of people close to Putin if it were frozen.

    WC boycott needs to be properly organised, with at least a dozen nations involved and announced at the last minute for maximum effect. The negotiations for this are probably going on at a diplomatic level behind the scenes - for example the FA and TV companies will need looking after if England withdraw, and similar considerations will also be the case in other countries. I think that, deep down, a number of Western nations would rather not go to Russia or Qatar, and a good opportunity to facilitate that has just presented itself.
    I don’t know that announcing a boycott at the last minute is a good idea.
    In any case I doubt that any of this is going to happen.
    If England pull out and are replaced by Italy then Putin will just laugh at us.

    It needs a lot of matches cancelled and a lot of big names not there, if it’s to be effective at humiliating Russia.
    It isn't just about Putin but the UK as a nation.

    Do we accept the Russian state may attack us with chemical weapons with impunity and then celebrate Russian hosting a world wide sporting event with our continued and willing participation?
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    "Strong and Stable", Spreadsheet Phil and Pike. God help us all.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,702
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    We hold all the cards!!
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited March 2018

    Trump on his meeting with Trudeau.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2018/03/14/in-fundraising-speech-trump-says-he-made-up-facts-in-meeting-with-justin-trudeau/

    “Trudeau came to see me. He’s a good guy, Justin. He said, ‘No, no, we have no trade deficit with you, we have none. Donald, please,’ ” Trump said, mimicking Trudeau, according to audio obtained by The Washington Post. “Nice guy, good-looking guy, comes in — ‘Donald, we have no trade deficit.’ He’s very proud because everybody else, you know, we’re getting killed.

    “... So, he’s proud. I said, ‘Wrong, Justin, you do.’ I didn’t even know. ... I had no idea. I just said, ‘You’re wrong.’ You know why? Because we’re so stupid. … And I thought they were smart. I said, ‘You’re wrong, Justin.’ He said, ‘Nope, we have no trade deficit.’ I said, ‘Well, in that case, I feel differently,’ I said, ‘but I don’t believe it.’ I sent one of our guys out, his guy, my guy, they went out, I said, ‘Check, because I can’t believe it.’

    ‘Well, sir, you’re actually right. We have no deficit, but that doesn’t include energy and timber. … And when you do, we lose $17 billion a year.’ It’s incredible.”

    The Office of the United States Trade Representative says the United States has a trade surplus with Canada.

    I need a Trump-English translator. His sea of verbiage just makes my eyes cross.

    Bottom line it for me. Has he been fibbing again?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2018

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    We hold all the cards!!
    Putin is playing Russian roulette against us with all chambers filled. Mrs May responds by playing the card - Mrs Bun the baker's' wife from "Happy Families".

    Frankly next to useless and only surpassed by the craven incompetence of Jeremy Corbyn.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
    Certainly we need to follow the money, there’s billions of roubles in London and other British territories and friendly nations, which would make a difference to a lot of people close to Putin if it were frozen.

    WC boycott needs to be properly organised, with at least a dozen nations involved and announced at the last minute for maximum effect. The negotiations for this are probably going on at a diplomatic level behind the scenes - for example the FA and TV companies will need looking after if England withdraw, and similar considerations will also be the case in other countries. I think that, deep down, a number of Western nations would rather not go to Russia or Qatar, and a good opportunity to facilitate that has just presented itself.
    I don’t know that announcing a boycott at the last minute is a good idea.
    In any case I doubt that any of this is going to happen.
    If England pull out and are replaced by Italy then Putin will just laugh at us.

    It needs a lot of matches cancelled and a lot of big names not there, if it’s to be effective at humiliating Russia.
    Yes. But domestically - cancelling a world cup the day before for something that happened months ago is going to go down pretty badly.

    If she wanted to boycott she should quickly get a few other countries to agree, announce and then try and pressure others to join in, so there are increasing, rolling numbers of nations cancelling/dropping out.

    *He says - having never organized a boycott of anything never mind a world cup*
    Getting a group together and then putting pressure on others might be the way to go, but the most important thing is that the organisers don’t have time to replace the boycotting nations with others - so there is serious disruption to the tournament itself, with sold-out matches cancelled and fans, TV companies, sponsors and FIFA themselves all angry about it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The last few months have tested polling loyalty to the Conservatives, with the government displaying division and incompetence on a rolling basis. But the Conservatives have not suffered in the slightest in the polls.

    This week has revealed Jeremy Corbyn at odds with the rest of his Parliamentary party and taking a view on the use of nerve gas on British soil that is, to put it kindly, niche. So the next few polls will be a test of Labour’s polling resilience. My guess? It won’t make much difference.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,752
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    We hold all the cards!!
    Putin is playing Russian roulette against us with all chambers filled. Mrs May responds by playing the card - Mrs Bun the baker's' wife from "Happy Families".

    Frankly next to useless and only surpassed by the craven incompetence of Jeremy Corbyn.
    My guess is that the government wants to still have some unilateral shots in its locker so that it can go further when Russia responds as it inevitably will. They are also anxious, correctly, to build up the multilateral response. France is already moaning we have gone too far too fast. A very strong response would probably have made building that consensus harder.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,702
    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
    Certainly we need to follow the money, there’s billions of roubles in London and other British territories and friendly nations, which would make a difference to a lot of people close to Putin if it were frozen.

    WC boycott needs to be properly organised, with at least a dozen nations involved and announced at the last minute for maximum effect. The negotiations for this are probably going on at a diplomatic level behind the scenes - for example the FA and TV companies will need looking after if England withdraw, and similar considerations will also be the case in other countries. I think that, deep down, a number of Western nations would rather not go to Russia or Qatar, and a good opportunity to facilitate that has just presented itself.
    I don’t know that announcing a boycott at the last minute is a good idea.
    In any case I doubt that any of this is going to happen.
    If England pull out and are replaced by Italy then Putin will just laugh at us.

    It needs a lot of matches cancelled and a lot of big names not there, if it’s to be effective at humiliating Russia.
    Yes. But domestically - cancelling a world cup the day before for something that happened months ago is going to go down pretty badly.

    If she wanted to boycott she should quickly get a few other countries to agree, announce and then try and pressure others to join in, so there are increasing, rolling numbers of nations cancelling/dropping out.

    *He says - having never organized a boycott of anything never mind a world cup*
    Getting a group together and then putting pressure on others might be the way to go, but the most important thing is that the organisers don’t have time to replace the boycotting nations with others - so there is serious disruption to the tournament itself, with sold-out matches cancelled and fans, TV companies, sponsors and FIFA themselves all angry about it.
    Chance of this happening zero.

    More chance of me voting Tory
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,752

    The last few months have tested polling loyalty to the Conservatives, with the government displaying division and incompetence on a rolling basis. But the Conservatives have not suffered in the slightest in the polls.

    This week has revealed Jeremy Corbyn at odds with the rest of his Parliamentary party and taking a view on the use of nerve gas on British soil that is, to put it kindly, niche. So the next few polls will be a test of Labour’s polling resilience. My guess? It won’t make much difference.

    It does appear that on both sides disdain for the other is more compelling than mere incompetence of their own.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Looks like they cant get their story straight:

    France undermined Theresa May’s attempts to build a consensus for punitive action against Russia last night by accusing her of punishing the regime prematurely.

    President Macron’s spokesman derided Mrs May’s decision to act against Moscow after the Salisbury poisonings as “fantasy politics”. Shortly after the prime minister announced the expulsion of 23 Russian diplomats and the suspension of bilateral talks, Benjamin Griveaux told a news conference in Paris: “Once the elements are proven then the time will come for decisions to be made.” He said that the poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia was a “serious act” on a strategic ally but France would await evidence of Russian involvement before taking a position.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/france-defies-may-over-russia-37b27qd2s
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    The last few months have tested polling loyalty to the Conservatives, with the government displaying division and incompetence on a rolling basis. But the Conservatives have not suffered in the slightest in the polls.

    This week has revealed Jeremy Corbyn at odds with the rest of his Parliamentary party and taking a view on the use of nerve gas on British soil that is, to put it kindly, niche. So the next few polls will be a test of Labour’s polling resilience. My guess? It won’t make much difference.

    It does appear that on both sides disdain for the other is more compelling than mere incompetence of their own.
    There are some who disdain both. I’ll be spoiling my ballot paper at national elections until further notice.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    DavidL said:

    My guess is that the government wants to still have some unilateral shots in its locker so that it can go further when Russia responds as it inevitably will. They are also anxious, correctly, to build up the multilateral response. France is already moaning we have gone too far too fast. A very strong response would probably have made building that consensus harder.

    Dribbling out weak actions will have a marginal effect. The government need to hit back quickly, strongly and with determination. The UK must give a firm lead and advise our allies to stand with us or fall within a growing sphere of Russian influence in their own countries.

    They must choose but we must act regardless.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,752
    JonathanD said:
    Faisal presumably missed this part of the statement: "Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 people in the Netherlands will be unaffected by the changes announced today."

    The statement also confirms that the shares will continue to be traded in Amsterdam, London and New York.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,702
    JonathanD said:
    Perhaps we could expel a Dutch diplomat for stealing our FTSE companies that should do it
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @nickeardleybbc: Alex Salmond says RT should not be shut down, arguing it’s not a propaganda station and he’s never been told what to do on show
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    For all the levity, it's a pretty big thing to dump your Secretary of State.

    Mr. D, for a long time Unilever had been pondering becoming a mono-HQ rather than dual-HQ company. Seeing every business decision and event as either vindicating our departure from the EU or condemning it is not especially sensible.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    JackW said:

    DavidL said:

    My guess is that the government wants to still have some unilateral shots in its locker so that it can go further when Russia responds as it inevitably will. They are also anxious, correctly, to build up the multilateral response. France is already moaning we have gone too far too fast. A very strong response would probably have made building that consensus harder.

    Dribbling out weak actions will have a marginal effect. The government need to hit back quickly, strongly and with determination. The UK must give a firm lead and advise our allies to stand with us or fall within a growing sphere of Russian influence in their own countries.

    They must choose but we must act regardless.
    I agree with this sentiment.

    One point: it would be presentationally better for these actions to be announced after the sham election in Russia on Sunday so that no suggestion could be made of trying to interfere with it.

    But what has been announced so far is pitifully inadequate as a response to the actions alleged.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    DavidL said:

    The last few months have tested polling loyalty to the Conservatives, with the government displaying division and incompetence on a rolling basis. But the Conservatives have not suffered in the slightest in the polls.

    This week has revealed Jeremy Corbyn at odds with the rest of his Parliamentary party and taking a view on the use of nerve gas on British soil that is, to put it kindly, niche. So the next few polls will be a test of Labour’s polling resilience. My guess? It won’t make much difference.

    It does appear that on both sides disdain for the other is more compelling than mere incompetence of their own.
    There are some who disdain both. I’ll be spoiling my ballot paper at national elections until further notice.
    There is no one to vote for. Only against.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Scott_P said:

    @nickeardleybbc: Alex Salmond says RT should not be shut down, arguing it’s not a propaganda station and he’s never been told what to do on show

    Well he doesn't need to be told what to say when he can be relied upon to take a Russo-sympathetic line.

  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    I suspect that Diplomatic expulsions are something that are taken far more seriously at Government level than they are generally perceived.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    JonathanD said:
    LOL Poor old Faisal. So desperate to find a bad news Brexit story he can't even get the basics right.

    Contrast his claims with the actual Unilever statement:

    "The following will not change as a result of the measures we have announced today (once the process of simplification is complete):

    - Unilever's spend in the UK and the Netherlands
    - Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 in the Netherlands
    - Unilever shares being listed and traded in London, Amsterdam and New York
    - The manufacture of Unilever products in the UK and the Netherlands
    - A single, Unilever Board, elected annually
    - Unilever applying both the UK and Dutch corporate governance codes
    - Parity in the dividend and capital return interests of shareholders
    - Unilever operating from London and Rotterdam"
  • You can never trust Perfidious Grenouilles.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    alex. said:

    Scott_P said:

    @nickeardleybbc: Alex Salmond says RT should not be shut down, arguing it’s not a propaganda station and he’s never been told what to do on show

    Well he doesn't need to be told what to say when he can be relied upon to take a Russo-sympathetic line.
    Galloway goes one better and tells RT what to say.
    https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/974055759452422144
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    John_M said:

    DavidL said:

    The last few months have tested polling loyalty to the Conservatives, with the government displaying division and incompetence on a rolling basis. But the Conservatives have not suffered in the slightest in the polls.

    This week has revealed Jeremy Corbyn at odds with the rest of his Parliamentary party and taking a view on the use of nerve gas on British soil that is, to put it kindly, niche. So the next few polls will be a test of Labour’s polling resilience. My guess? It won’t make much difference.

    It does appear that on both sides disdain for the other is more compelling than mere incompetence of their own.
    There are some who disdain both. I’ll be spoiling my ballot paper at national elections until further notice.
    There is no one to vote for. Only against.
    I want to vote against both main parties. Both are actively dangerous.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited March 2018

    John_M said:

    DavidL said:

    The last few months have tested polling loyalty to the Conservatives, with the government displaying division and incompetence on a rolling basis. But the Conservatives have not suffered in the slightest in the polls.

    This week has revealed Jeremy Corbyn at odds with the rest of his Parliamentary party and taking a view on the use of nerve gas on British soil that is, to put it kindly, niche. So the next few polls will be a test of Labour’s polling resilience. My guess? It won’t make much difference.

    It does appear that on both sides disdain for the other is more compelling than mere incompetence of their own.
    There are some who disdain both. I’ll be spoiling my ballot paper at national elections until further notice.
    There is no one to vote for. Only against.
    I want to vote against both main parties. Both are actively dangerous.
    Been busy at work, but it does seem that politics is on a death spiral.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    DavidL said:

    JonathanD said:
    Faisal presumably missed this part of the statement: "Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 people in the Netherlands will be unaffected by the changes announced today."

    The statement also confirms that the shares will continue to be traded in Amsterdam, London and New York.
    A consumer company will of course not want to upset 52% of it's target market by blaming their vote for an action it takes so there will be plenty of fluff in their statement to make sure they don't offend anyone. Yet the direction of travel is clear, companies will relocate and locate themselves to their bigger market especially if they want to have any success in lobbying the EU.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    JonathanD said:
    LOL Poor old Faisal. So desperate to find a bad news Brexit story he can't even get the basics right.
    AIUI its much more to do with more protective Dutch takeover rules than those of the UK - so not a lot (or anything much) to do with Brexit....
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920

    John_M said:

    DavidL said:

    The last few months have tested polling loyalty to the Conservatives, with the government displaying division and incompetence on a rolling basis. But the Conservatives have not suffered in the slightest in the polls.

    This week has revealed Jeremy Corbyn at odds with the rest of his Parliamentary party and taking a view on the use of nerve gas on British soil that is, to put it kindly, niche. So the next few polls will be a test of Labour’s polling resilience. My guess? It won’t make much difference.

    It does appear that on both sides disdain for the other is more compelling than mere incompetence of their own.
    There are some who disdain both. I’ll be spoiling my ballot paper at national elections until further notice.
    There is no one to vote for. Only against.
    I want to vote against both main parties. Both are actively dangerous.
    It says a lot about the current state of the LDs that they don't even appear to be able to attract the vote of someone like you.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952

    JonathanD said:
    LOL Poor old Faisal. So desperate to find a bad news Brexit story he can't even get the basics right.

    Contrast his claims with the actual Unilever statement:

    "The following will not change as a result of the measures we have announced today (once the process of simplification is complete):

    - Unilever's spend in the UK and the Netherlands
    - Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 in the Netherlands
    - Unilever shares being listed and traded in London, Amsterdam and New York
    - The manufacture of Unilever products in the UK and the Netherlands
    - A single, Unilever Board, elected annually
    - Unilever applying both the UK and Dutch corporate governance codes
    - Parity in the dividend and capital return interests of shareholders
    - Unilever operating from London and Rotterdam"
    We should celebrate that Faisal has the ability to go on our meida and spout bollocks. It wouldn't be allowed in Russia.... (well, not unless it was Putin-authorised bollocks).
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    We hold all the cards!!
    F A L K L A N D S M O M E N T
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    OT, but the eighth episode of my daft webcomic, Tales of Knights and Nitwits, is up today. It's got a monster guest appearance, and I was a bit surprised when a Twitter poll (with this as an unprompted suggestion) decided he should be called Mogg, as in Jacob Rees-Mogg.

    http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/tales-of-knights-and-nitwits-episode-8.html
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited March 2018
    JonathanD said:

    DavidL said:

    JonathanD said:
    Faisal presumably missed this part of the statement: "Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 people in the Netherlands will be unaffected by the changes announced today."

    The statement also confirms that the shares will continue to be traded in Amsterdam, London and New York.
    A consumer company will of course not want to upset 52% of it's target market by blaming their vote for an action it takes so there will be plenty of fluff in their statement to make sure they don't offend anyone. Yet the direction of travel is clear, companies will relocate and locate themselves to their bigger market especially if they want to have any success in lobbying the EU.
    I'm sure you're correct in general, but in this instance, wrong.

    I used to work for a large US computer company. In the 90s, I was the EMEA account manager for Unilever. They were discussing moving the HQ to the Netherlands back then (the dual HQ structure caused all kinds of issues, not least ferocious internal politics).

    I think the Kraft bid spooked them, and they're going to use Dutch law to help protect them from another hostile bid.
  • There is an extraordinary coalition of support for Theresa May's decision to blame Russia and for her plan to expel 23 diplomats, impose sanctions and cut ties, including ministers and royals boycotting the World Cup.

    It stretches from Nigel Farage to Caroline Lucas, from the DUP to the Lib Dems, from Donald Trump to Nicola Sturgeon.

    All except the Labour leader.

    (from the Red Box email)
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    alex. said:

    Scott_P said:

    @nickeardleybbc: Alex Salmond says RT should not be shut down, arguing it’s not a propaganda station and he’s never been told what to do on show

    Well he doesn't need to be told what to say when he can be relied upon to take a Russo-sympathetic line.

    banning RT makes me think of the 1988/9 prohibition of Sinn Fein being allowed to speak on radio & TV, it didnt work then and I cant see what it will achieve now....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706

    There is an extraordinary coalition of support for Theresa May's decision to blame Russia and for her plan to expel 23 diplomats, impose sanctions and cut ties, including ministers and royals boycotting the World Cup.

    It stretches from Nigel Farage to Caroline Lucas, from the DUP to the Lib Dems, from Donald Trump to Nicola Sturgeon.

    All except the Labour leader.

    (from the Red Box email)

    Though does rather dilute future attacks on 'red Tories' from Scot nats given they are supporting May unlike Corbyn
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @StigAbell: I think the best protest against Putin would be for England to go to the World Cup and then heroically, quietly allow itself to be knocked out in the group stages after three largely forgettable performances.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. M, yeah, Kraft taking over Cadbury has not worked out well.

    Mr. Eagles, reminds me of a Twitter comment I saw about the leader of the Greens being more hawkish than the leader of Labour.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    John_M said:

    DavidL said:

    The last few months have tested polling loyalty to the Conservatives, with the government displaying division and incompetence on a rolling basis. But the Conservatives have not suffered in the slightest in the polls.

    This week has revealed Jeremy Corbyn at odds with the rest of his Parliamentary party and taking a view on the use of nerve gas on British soil that is, to put it kindly, niche. So the next few polls will be a test of Labour’s polling resilience. My guess? It won’t make much difference.

    It does appear that on both sides disdain for the other is more compelling than mere incompetence of their own.
    There are some who disdain both. I’ll be spoiling my ballot paper at national elections until further notice.
    There is no one to vote for. Only against.
    There’s not even a Monster Raving Loony ‘organisation’ hereabouts.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952
    The consequences of FIFA bribe-taking are clear to see. Putin gets to buy the undeserved respectability of hosting the World Cup. We are left either making a forlorn stance by staying at home - and being replaced by Italy - or meekly going along to exit after the group stage (whilst our supporters get a state-sponsored shellacking).

    That is the poison of the Blatter kleptocracy coming up against the Putin kleptocracy.

    (Oh, and I fully expect our team to go down with some really debilitating stomach bugs whilst there. Not the A-team of nerve agents, just the second reserves of deeply unpleasant non-lethal nasties.)
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920

    alex. said:

    Scott_P said:

    @nickeardleybbc: Alex Salmond says RT should not be shut down, arguing it’s not a propaganda station and he’s never been told what to do on show

    Well he doesn't need to be told what to say when he can be relied upon to take a Russo-sympathetic line.

    banning RT makes me think of the 1988/9 prohibition of Sinn Fein being allowed to speak on radio & TV, it didnt work then and I cant see what it will achieve now....
    Better ignored than banned. The one item from Jack W's list of suggested actions that I would emphatically endorse is the beefing-up of BBC's Russian language service. That would be the most effective counter-move.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @aljwhite: Good news, sounds like we might be pulling out https://twitter.com/psmith/status/974199025636397057
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952
    Scott_P said:

    @StigAbell: I think the best protest against Putin would be for England to go to the World Cup and then heroically, quietly allow itself to be knocked out in the group stages after three largely forgettable performances.

    At least we would bed-block the Italians.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    We hold all the cards!!
    Putin is playing Russian roulette against us with all chambers filled. Mrs May responds by playing the card - Mrs Bun the baker's' wife from "Happy Families".

    Frankly next to useless and only surpassed by the craven incompetence of Jeremy Corbyn.
    Short of nuking Moscow or sending an invasion force to Russia which would obviously be totally disproportionate, May's combination of sanctions and expulsions is the best response
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,920
    edited March 2018
    Scott_P said:

    @StigAbell: I think the best protest against Putin would be for England to go to the World Cup and then heroically, quietly allow itself to be knocked out in the group stages after three largely forgettable performances.

    Yes, worked in Brazil in 2014, though I can't quite remember what it was that the Brazilian Government had done to incur our ire.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    We hold all the cards!!
    Putin is playing Russian roulette against us with all chambers filled. Mrs May responds by playing the card - Mrs Bun the baker's' wife from "Happy Families".

    Frankly next to useless and only surpassed by the craven incompetence of Jeremy Corbyn.
    Short of nuking Moscow or sending an invasion force to Russia which would obviously be totally disproportionate, May's combination of sanctions and expulsions is the best response
    You don't think there might be some measures in between those two approaches?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    There are tools in the City of London? Who knew?

    The correct plan was always 1. Announce stuff 2. Get everyone on board with it 3. Announce a lot more stuff. It was always on the cards that other nations would be looking to say "Yes, it's an outrage, but this is way over the top." May done good, so far.

    The usual flouncers were hoping for silence punctuated by a tweet from Tusk saying "LOL at Salisbury, You're on your own on this one, you plucky little Englanders." When you're hoping for that, the revelation that the world's second largest Anglo Dutch company is Anglo Dutch, is thin gruel. Never mind lads, perhaps someone as quintessentially British as Shell Oil will follow suit.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    RT gets a lot of press for a station that reaches about 150k people. The Red Button and PBS America gets more viewers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    We hold all the cards!!
    Putin is playing Russian roulette against us with all chambers filled. Mrs May responds by playing the card - Mrs Bun the baker's' wife from "Happy Families".

    Frankly next to useless and only surpassed by the craven incompetence of Jeremy Corbyn.
    Short of nuking Moscow or sending an invasion force to Russia which would obviously be totally disproportionate, May's combination of sanctions and expulsions is the best response
    You don't think there might be some measures in between those two approaches?
    Not that I can think of of any significance apart from a trade war
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Cheltenham - Day 3

    1:30 Terrefort
    2:10 A Great View
    2:50 Frodon
    3:30 Sam Spinner
    4:10 The Storyteller
    4:50 Laurina
    5:30 Sugar Baron
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    Tom Newton Dunn

    Nia Griffith did not ask @LOTOcomms permission to go on @BBCr4today now. In its self, a hefty act of rebellion.


    Kevin Schofield

    Shadow Defence Secretary Nia Griffith: "We accept ... that Russia is responsible for this attack." Anyone keeping count of Labour's different positions on this? #r4today


    This is all going well....
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    We hold all the cards!!
    Putin is playing Russian roulette against us with all chambers filled. Mrs May responds by playing the card - Mrs Bun the baker's' wife from "Happy Families".

    Frankly next to useless and only surpassed by the craven incompetence of Jeremy Corbyn.
    Short of nuking Moscow or sending an invasion force to Russia which would obviously be totally disproportionate, May's combination of sanctions and expulsions is the best response
    You don't think there might be some measures in between those two approaches?
    This is the Internet. There are no shades of grey here. So, are you for nuking Moscow or are you a filthy Putin apologist?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tnewtondunn: Nia Griffith now dictating foreign policy to Corbyn, that Russia is to blame for #Salisbury: “I can assure you that is very strongly our front bench position now” @BBCr4today

    @rosschawkins: Nia Griffith says - I can't speak for Seumas Milne he has to speak for himself
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    edited March 2018
    Scott_P said:

    @aljwhite: Good news, sounds like we might be pulling out https://twitter.com/psmith/status/974199025636397057

    We won't be we are just not sending the Royals or senior officials
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    F1: was perusing the win market for Australia. Oddly hard to call, not just because it's the first race. Last year, Ferrari was best on street circuits (although Oz is a bit faster than places like Monaco), and Red Bull was also very good. But this year the Prancing Horse has lengthened its wheelbase a smidge (harmful for streets, helpful for proper circuits), the Renault engine is reportedly being developed, early on, with reliability over performance in mind, and the Mercedes was weaker on the streets last year but they've increased the rake...

    So even if I had an idea of relative performance on a neutral circuit, it's tricky to call so early. Hmm. And the midfield should be very competitive too.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    John_M said:

    JonathanD said:

    DavidL said:

    JonathanD said:
    Faisal presumably missed this part of the statement: "Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 people in the Netherlands will be unaffected by the changes announced today."

    The statement also confirms that the shares will continue to be traded in Amsterdam, London and New York.
    A consumer company will of course not want to upset 52% of it's target market by blaming their vote for an action it takes so there will be plenty of fluff in their statement to make sure they don't offend anyone. Yet the direction of travel is clear, companies will relocate and locate themselves to their bigger market especially if they want to have any success in lobbying the EU.
    I think the Kraft bid spooked them, and they're going to use Dutch law to help protect them from another hostile bid.
    Except they already had a Dutch HQ, so already had that protection. That they have been talking about simplifying for years but only suddenly done it just after Brexit makes it fairly clear what the cause was.

    Anyway, this is all part of the important rebalancing of the UKs economy away from London that Brexiteers wanted so all good in the end i guess.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    hunchman said:

    More rabid Russian xenophobia on here tonight. Our government has offered no proof that Russia did it. Why did they fail to comply with the Russian response of handing over the substance concerned? The timing of the Salisbury incident bothers me in the run up to the Russian election. And Salisbury seems very convenient for the UK government being the major population centre nearest to Porton Down.

    Of course I have no proof or evidence of who dunnit, but given what I know about many members of this government having followed the money trails they have been involved in, they are some of the very last people that I would trust. There are far too many people jumping to conclusions, when there is no firm evidence to allege that Russian government backed agents carried out the misdeed.

    Not the view held by our MPs (apart from Corbyn) who were remarkably together across the parties today in the HOC, nor tonight in a statement from Donald Tusk or from the UN ex USSR
    Our MPs were remarkably together across the parties in the HOC regarding Iraq, Libya, PFI and lots of other matters (apart from Corbyn).

    Corbyn was right about all of them.
    He's a human man, big john, he's been right on some things and wrong about plenty of others, neither are in themselves proof he is right or wrong about this thing. Each situation must be judged on its individual merits.
    Every pb poster needs to print this out and pin it next to their computer.
    Thank you.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952

    alex. said:

    Scott_P said:

    @nickeardleybbc: Alex Salmond says RT should not be shut down, arguing it’s not a propaganda station and he’s never been told what to do on show

    Well he doesn't need to be told what to say when he can be relied upon to take a Russo-sympathetic line.

    banning RT makes me think of the 1988/9 prohibition of Sinn Fein being allowed to speak on radio & TV, it didnt work then and I cant see what it will achieve now....
    Better ignored than banned. The one item from Jack W's list of suggested actions that I would emphatically endorse is the beefing-up of BBC's Russian language service. That would be the most effective counter-move.
    That has somewhat patronising overtones of "If only they could hear in RP Russian what a shower that Putin and his cronies are, they'd jolly well do something about it!". Russians that care know full well; it's just that the people they would like to vote for as an alternative to Putin end up in jail on trumped up charges - or end up dead.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401


    Tom Newton Dunn

    Nia Griffith did not ask @LOTOcomms permission to go on @BBCr4today now. In its self, a hefty act of rebellion.


    Kevin Schofield

    Shadow Defence Secretary Nia Griffith: "We accept ... that Russia is responsible for this attack." Anyone keeping count of Labour's different positions on this? #r4today


    This is all going well....

    The pros and the nerds are keeping count. Not many others are.

    Who knows if any of this will cut through. The Tories have a clear change to paint Corbyn as a threat to the country - but it needs to be done in the right way and with the right preparation: and that means that people need to be listening to what he's saying and understanding the consequences of it. There's a lot of work that needs to be done before a poster of Corbyn in Putin's pocket will be effective.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    HYUFD said:

    We won't be we are just not sending the Royals or senior officials

    It was a joke...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. P, are you backing those win only or each way?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @aljwhite: Good news, sounds like we might be pulling out https://twitter.com/psmith/status/974199025636397057

    We won't be we are just not sending the Royals or senior officials
    You’ve erm missed the joke...

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Mr. P, are you backing those win only or each way?

    Each way multiples.

    Day 1, £12 returned £105
    Day 2, £24 returned £3

    Only idiots bet on horses racing...
  • NEW THREAD

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. Place a case to FIFA that we cannot compete in a tournament hosted by a state attacking us. Albeit 3 months away propose Germany host the tournament and Italy replace Russia.

    3. Formally declare the Russian Federation government a rogue state and criminal enterprise.

    4. Place all evidence from all sources of world wide Russian criminal activities in the public domain.

    5. All filmed intercepts of Russian military incursions into UK airspace to be placed in the public domain

    6. Putin's wealth to be openly scrutinized by House of Commons Select Committee.

    7. All tools of of the City of London to be utilized against Russian assets.

    8. Beef up Russian section of the BBC World Service.

    9. Advise our trading partners and allies that preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    We hold all the cards!!
    Putin is playing Russian roulette against us with all chambers filled. Mrs May responds by playing the card - Mrs Bun the baker's' wife from "Happy Families".

    Frankly next to useless and only surpassed by the craven incompetence of Jeremy Corbyn.
    Short of nuking Moscow or sending an invasion force to Russia which would obviously be totally disproportionate, May's combination of sanctions and expulsions is the best response
    Mrs May's response has been weak and there are, as I noted down thread, a large number of actions short of your cataclysm that may be employed.

    Dear god even Ted Heath expelled 105 Russians in response to cold war Soviet spying. Putin deploys chemical weapons and previously nuclear materials on UK soil and Mrs May huffs and puffs and be sure Russian state will come for us again.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    JonathanD said:

    John_M said:

    JonathanD said:

    DavidL said:

    JonathanD said:
    Faisal presumably missed this part of the statement: "Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 people in the Netherlands will be unaffected by the changes announced today."

    The statement also confirms that the shares will continue to be traded in Amsterdam, London and New York.
    A consumer company will of course not want to upset 52% of it's target market by blaming their vote for an action it takes so there will be plenty of fluff in their statement to make sure they don't offend anyone. Yet the direction of travel is clear, companies will relocate and locate themselves to their bigger market especially if they want to have any success in lobbying the EU.
    I think the Kraft bid spooked them, and they're going to use Dutch law to help protect them from another hostile bid.
    Except they already had a Dutch HQ, so already had that protection. That they have been talking about simplifying for years but only suddenly done it just after Brexit makes it fairly clear what the cause was.

    Anyway, this is all part of the important rebalancing of the UKs economy away from London that Brexiteers wanted so all good in the end i guess.
    They had protection for the NV. But have it your way. It's Brexit, and Brexit alone.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. P, cheers.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    JonathanD said:
    LOL Poor old Faisal. So desperate to find a bad news Brexit story he can't even get the basics right.

    Contrast his claims with the actual Unilever statement:

    "The following will not change as a result of the measures we have announced today (once the process of simplification is complete):

    - Unilever's spend in the UK and the Netherlands
    - Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 in the Netherlands
    - Unilever shares being listed and traded in London, Amsterdam and New York
    - The manufacture of Unilever products in the UK and the Netherlands
    - A single, Unilever Board, elected annually
    - Unilever applying both the UK and Dutch corporate governance codes
    - Parity in the dividend and capital return interests of shareholders
    - Unilever operating from London and Rotterdam"
    And some on here thought he was impartial.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    JackW said:

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Absolutely right.
    We don’t want to start a war - but we have to come up with responses that deter them.

    I regret to say that the government response will not deter the Russian state. If this is "robust" then I dread to think what a weak response would look like.

    Our nation will continue to be attacked by Russia until we grow a pair.
    I agree, if this is all we are doing.

    However, this may just be a first stage, and things may also being done that the Great British Public cannot be told about.
    The time is now. Just for starters and by no means an exhaustive list :

    1. Expel the Russian ambassador and all but a skeleton staff at the embassy to be engaged in verifiable humanitarian activities.

    2 Advise the FA to withdraw from the World Cup. at preference will be given to nations/companies not trading with Russia.

    10. Stop the cuts to the UK military NOW !!!!!!!!!

    We hold all the cards!!
    Putin is playing Russian roulette against us with all chambers filled. Mrs May responds by playing the card - Mrs Bun the baker's' wife from "Happy Families".

    Frankly next to useless and only surpassed by the craven incompetence of Jeremy Corbyn.
    Short of nuking Moscow or sending an invasion force to Russia which would obviously be totally disproportionate, May's combination of sanctions and expulsions is the best response
    Mrs May's response has been weak and there are, as I noted down thread, a large number of actions short of your cataclysm that may be employed.

    Dear god even Ted Heath expelled 105 Russians in response to cold war Soviet spying. Putin deploys chemical weapons and previously nuclear materials on UK soil and Mrs May huffs and puffs and be sure Russian state will come for us again.
    So it is really a matter of degree over expulsions which will really make little more difference either way, 23 expulsions is still the most since 1985
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    Indeed, we don’t want to start a war but we have to react to an extreme provocation or else they will just keep poking.

    Just catching up on yesterday in Parliament, with the one obvious exception pretty much unanimity for the government’s actions, and a huge amount of international backing from them too. Obviously a lot of work gone on behind the scenes in the past few days. Some of the harshest responses will be convert or investigatory in nature and weren’t announced yesterday.

    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
    Certainly we need to follow the money, there’s billions of roubles in London and other British territories and friendly nations, which would make a difference to a lot of people close to Putin if it were frozen.

    WC boycott needs to be properly organised, with at least a dozen nations involved and announced at the last minute for maximum effect. The negotiations for this are probably going on at a diplomatic level behind the scenes - for example the FA and TV companies will need looking after if England withdraw, and similar considerations will also be the case in other countries. I think that, deep down, a number of Western nations would rather not go to Russia or Qatar, and a good opportunity to facilitate that has just presented itself.
    I don’t know that announcing a boycott at the last minute is a good idea.
    In any case I doubt that any of this is going to happen.
    A world cup boycott would be effective if the UK could call on other European nations - Germany particularly - to join. Unfortunately, the self-harming decision to wilfully diminish our influence in Europe has clearly ruled that out as a possibility.
    You are seriously suggesting that our allies would do it, but because of leaving the EU they won't, even though we are still allies? What kind of fair weather friends are they then? And so much for the idea the EU has noble aims if they would react like that. Once more sometimes supporters of it seem to have a very low opinion of it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    John_M said:

    JonathanD said:

    John_M said:

    JonathanD said:

    DavidL said:

    JonathanD said:
    Faisal presumably missed this part of the statement: "Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 people in the Netherlands will be unaffected by the changes announced today."

    The statement also confirms that the shares will continue to be traded in Amsterdam, London and New York.
    A consumer company will of course not want to upset 52% of it's target market by blaming their vote for an action it takes so there will be plenty of fluff in their statement to make sure they don't offend anyone. Yet the direction of travel is clear, companies will relocate and locate themselves to their bigger market especially if they want to have any success in lobbying the EU.
    I think the Kraft bid spooked them, and they're going to use Dutch law to help protect them from another hostile bid.
    Except they already had a Dutch HQ, so already had that protection. That they have been talking about simplifying for years but only suddenly done it just after Brexit makes it fairly clear what the cause was.

    Anyway, this is all part of the important rebalancing of the UKs economy away from London that Brexiteers wanted so all good in the end i guess.
    They had protection for the NV. But have it your way. It's Brexit, and Brexit alone.
    Would you accept that Brexit is a catalyst?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    Indeed, we don’t want to start a war but we have to react to an extreme provocation or else they will just keep poking.

    Just catching up on yesterday in Parliament, with the one obvious exception pretty much unanimity for the government’s actions, and a huge amount of international backing from them too. Obviously a lot of work gone on behind the scenes in the past few days. Some of the harshest responses will be convert or investigatory in nature and weren’t announced yesterday.

    I suspect sanctions/financial restrictions/clamp down on tax havens is the way to go.
    Not too provocative in terms of international norms - but will be painful for some powerful people near Putin.

    Boycotting the World Cup would be a powerful statement - especially if we could get other European nations to do it as well. That might carry some domestic political risks though.
    Certainly we need to follow the money, there’s billions of roubles in London and other British territories and friendly nations, which would make a difference to a lot of people close to Putin if it were frozen.

    WC boycott needs to be properly organised, with at least a dozen nations involved and announced at the last minute for maximum effect. The negotiations for this are probably going on at a diplomatic level behind the scenes - for example the FA and TV companies will need looking after if England withdraw, and similar considerations will also be the case in other countries. I think that, deep down, a number of Western nations would rather not go to Russia or Qatar, and a good opportunity to facilitate that has just presented itself.
    I don’t know that announcing a boycott at the last minute is a good idea.
    In any case I doubt that any of this is going to happen.
    A world cup boycott would be effective if the UK could call on other European nations - Germany particularly - to join. Unfortunately, the self-harming decision to wilfully diminish our influence in Europe has clearly ruled that out as a possibility.
    You are seriously suggesting that our allies would do it, but because of leaving the EU they won't, even though we are still allies? What kind of fair weather friends are they then? And so much for the idea the EU has noble aims if they would react like that. Once more sometimes supporters of it seem to have a very low opinion of it.
    +1
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    John_M said:

    JonathanD said:

    John_M said:

    JonathanD said:

    DavidL said:

    JonathanD said:
    Faisal presumably missed this part of the statement: "Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 people in the Netherlands will be unaffected by the changes announced today."

    The statement also confirms that the shares will continue to be traded in Amsterdam, London and New York.
    A consumer company will of course not want to upset 52% of it's target market by blaming their vote for an action it takes so there will be plenty of fluff in their statement to make sure they don't offend anyone. Yet the direction of travel is clear, companies will relocate and locate themselves to their bigger market especially if they want to have any success in lobbying the EU.
    I think the Kraft bid spooked them, and they're going to use Dutch law to help protect them from another hostile bid.
    Except they already had a Dutch HQ, so already had that protection. That they have been talking about simplifying for years but only suddenly done it just after Brexit makes it fairly clear what the cause was.

    Anyway, this is all part of the important rebalancing of the UKs economy away from London that Brexiteers wanted so all good in the end i guess.
    They had protection for the NV. But have it your way. It's Brexit, and Brexit alone.
    Would you accept that Brexit is a catalyst?
    More likely the Kraft bid was the catalyst.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122


    Tom Newton Dunn

    Nia Griffith did not ask @LOTOcomms permission to go on @BBCr4today now. In its self, a hefty act of rebellion.


    Kevin Schofield

    Shadow Defence Secretary Nia Griffith: "We accept ... that Russia is responsible for this attack." Anyone keeping count of Labour's different positions on this? #r4today


    This is all going well....

    Good but it's like Labour on Trident - as long as Corbyn is leader he will never move from his anti-West position. Vote Corbyn - get Putin!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JonathanD said:
    Almost entirely to do with takeover protection
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JonathanD said:

    DavidL said:

    JonathanD said:
    Faisal presumably missed this part of the statement: "Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 people in the Netherlands will be unaffected by the changes announced today."

    The statement also confirms that the shares will continue to be traded in Amsterdam, London and New York.
    A consumer company will of course not want to upset 52% of it's target market by blaming their vote for an action it takes so there will be plenty of fluff in their statement to make sure they don't offend anyone. Yet the direction of travel is clear, companies will relocate and locate themselves to their bigger market especially if they want to have any success in lobbying the EU.
    Elsevier and Royal Dutch Shell went the other way. But no one talks about them
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JonathanD said:

    John_M said:

    JonathanD said:

    DavidL said:

    JonathanD said:
    Faisal presumably missed this part of the statement: "Unilever's employment of 7,300 people in the UK and 3,100 people in the Netherlands will be unaffected by the changes announced today."

    The statement also confirms that the shares will continue to be traded in Amsterdam, London and New York.
    A consumer company will of course not want to upset 52% of it's target market by blaming their vote for an action it takes so there will be plenty of fluff in their statement to make sure they don't offend anyone. Yet the direction of travel is clear, companies will relocate and locate themselves to their bigger market especially if they want to have any success in lobbying the EU.
    I think the Kraft bid spooked them, and they're going to use Dutch law to help protect them from another hostile bid.
    Except they already had a Dutch HQ, so already had that protection. That they have been talking about simplifying for years but only suddenly done it just after Brexit makes it fairly clear what the cause was.

    Anyway, this is all part of the important rebalancing of the UKs economy away from London that Brexiteers wanted so all good in the end i guess.
    They didn’t have the ability to use a Stichtung
This discussion has been closed.