The right shamefully dog-whistled its way through the EU referendum campaign and the London mayoral election =- with Rod Liddle being a perfect example. But he and his mates are absolutely correct about Corbyn. So, not only is the Labour leader's refusal to challenge anti-Semitism morally wrong, it is also politically destructive. Once again, he is the Tory get out of jail free card.
Just as the hard left don’t care about anti-Semitism, the Leavers don’t care about their xenophobic lies. Both get annoyed when you point out their blind spots. Neither are going to do anything about dealing with them.
What does that mean? It means that neither will lose much support because camps are too entrenched. And both are capping their support by entrenching their opponents.
I suspect that the far left's history of hanging out with anti-Semites and Jew-baiters is only now becoming more widely known. I do think it will cost Labour support in some of the more middle-class, anti-Brexit constituencies where the party did well in 2017.
Taking a hostile view of Jews and Israel is not a vote-loser in general. It is likely to help the Labour party gain votes in most areas, with Barnet being one of the few exceptions. While not openly expressed, as it would now be non-PC, such views are just as widely held among the well-to-do as the working classes.
If it is not expressed how do we know that?
Though I don't dispute the possibility such things can be less than obvious. I was very surprised and saddened when my father criticised ed m as a little jew boy, seemingly out of nowhere.
' The larger than average swing in Chipping Barnet could be explained by the MP Theresa Villiers being a prominent Brexiteer, the MP for Hendon also backed Leave, but he wasn’t quite as prominent as the former cabinet minister. '
Chipping Barnet has a much lower Jewish population than the other two Barnet constituencies:
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
No we don't. You are irreconcilable. You certainly don't represent all those who voted Remain and your fanaticism precludes any rapprochement. You are like the old Russian Communists after the collapse of the Soviet Union and you will go to your graves swearing it was all a terrible mistake no matter what the outcome.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
We shall see. If rules are broken there should be some consequences, but as noted last thread they dont rerun every election where some spending rules were not followed, so what would be proportionate, if it is true.
An obvious difference is that Corbyn only needs to gain a handful of seats in order for the Tories to be out of government.
Just not going to happen
Brave prediction. You really are the Comical Ali of PB Tories.
Insults are the mark of a lost argument
Morning G, Not at all , sometimes you have to tell people as it is and only way to get it registered is by some shock tactics, otherwise it does not get through. It can also be amusing though not always, always good to have a bit of banter included when topic is boring old politics.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
We shall see. If rules are broken there should be some consequences, but as noted last thread they dont rerun every election where some spending rules were not followed, so what would be proportionate, if it is true.
Unfortunately we see it often , but they will do nothing as they are all at gaming the system. We have a political class that are immoral and will stoop to any level to get to the trough.
The right shamefully dog-whistled its way through the EU referendum campaign and the London mayoral election =- with Rod Liddle being a perfect example. But he and his mates are absolutely correct about Corbyn. So, not only is the Labour leader's refusal to challenge anti-Semitism morally wrong, it is also politically destructive. Once again, he is the Tory get out of jail free card.
Just as the hard left don’t care about anti-Semitism, the Leavers don’t care about their xenophobic lies. Both get annoyed when you point out their blind spots. Neither are going to do anything about dealing with them.
What does that mean? It means that neither will lose much support because camps are too entrenched. And both are capping their support by entrenching their opponents.
I suspect that the far left's history of hanging out with anti-Semites and Jew-baiters is only now becoming more widely known. I do think it will cost Labour support in some of the more middle-class, anti-Brexit constituencies where the party did well in 2017.
Taking a hostile view of Jews and Israel is not a vote-loser in general. It is likely to help the Labour party gain votes in most areas, with Barnet being one of the few exceptions. While not openly expressed, as it would now be non-PC, such views are just as widely held among the well-to-do as the working classes.
If it is not expressed how do we know that?
Though I don't dispute the possibility such things can be less than obvious. I was very surprised and saddened when my father criticised ed m as a little jew boy, seemingly out of nowhere.
I am convinced that Labour did particularly badly at the 2015 GE precisely because of views such as those held by your father.
Major British political parties fare better when led by a WASP.
Alastair Meeks: 'But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical.'
That boat sailed away some time ago ... If I can't be a citizen of Europe, I will proudly stand for the 'citizen of nowhere' anthem.
There remains a reachable group, though it is small and shrinking. I'm very doubtful any Leavers have given any real thought how they are going to replace their elderly voter base in years to come.
The right shamefully dog-whistled its way through the EU referendum campaign and the London mayoral election =- with Rod Liddle being a perfect example. But he and his mates are absolutely correct about Corbyn. So, not only is the Labour leader's refusal to challenge anti-Semitism morally wrong, it is also politically destructive. Once again, he is the Tory get out of jail free card.
Just as the hard left don’t care about anti-Semitism, the Leavers don’t care about their xenophobic lies. Both get annoyed when you point out their blind spots. Neither are going to do anything about dealing with them.
What does that mean? It means that neither will lose much support because camps are too entrenched. And both are capping their support by entrenching their opponents.
I suspect that the far left's history of hanging out with anti-Semites and Jew-baiters is only now becoming more widely known. I do think it will cost Labour support in some of the more middle-class, anti-Brexit constituencies where the party did well in 2017.
Stories like this have made the rounds for years now. Why would it cut through now if it didn't before? What is different?
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
We shall see. If rules are broken there should be some consequences, but as noted last thread they dont rerun every election where some spending rules were not followed, so what would be proportionate, if it is true.
It was stated last night that the electoral commission have already reviewed this twice and found no evidence of law breaking but they are now investigated all involved in the referendum including the remain campaign
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
No we don't. You are irreconcilable. You certainly don't represent all those who voted Remain and your fanaticism precludes any rapprochement. You are like the old Russian Communists after the collapse of the Soviet Union and you will go to your graves swearing it was all a terrible mistake no matter what the outcome.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
We shall see. If rules are broken there should be some consequences, but as noted last thread they dont rerun every election where some spending rules were not followed, so what would be proportionate, if it is true.
It was stated last night that the electoral commission have already reviewed this twice and found no evidence of law breaking but they are now investigated all involved in the referendum including the remain campaign
I know. Sometimes further investigations of the same thing uncover new things. Maybe that will happen, maybe not.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
The right shamefully dog-whistled its way through the EU referendum campaign and the London mayoral election =- with Rod Liddle being a perfect example. But he and his mates are absolutely correct about Corbyn. So, not only is the Labour leader's refusal to challenge anti-Semitism morally wrong, it is also politically destructive. Once again, he is the Tory get out of jail free card.
Just as the hard left don’t care about anti-Semitism, the Leavers don’t care about their xenophobic lies. Both get annoyed when you point out their blind spots. Neither are going to do anything about dealing with them.
What does that mean? It means that neither will lose much support because camps are too entrenched. And both are capping their support by entrenching their opponents.
I suspect that the far left's history of hanging out with anti-Semites and Jew-baiters is only now becoming more widely known. I do think it will cost Labour support in some of the more middle-class, anti-Brexit constituencies where the party did well in 2017.
Stories like this have made the rounds for years now. Why would it cut through now if it didn't before? What is different?
They are getting a lot more coverage and they involve the Brexit-backing leader of the opposition. This will not swing huge numbers of votes. But under our electoral system that does not matter.
It looks more like a wastebin for the tissues on the table. I suspect just a cold, and need to blow nose occasionally.
While watching a cabinet member chuck up on camera would have some entertainment value, much more likely would be a dash off stage to speak to the great white telephone!
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
We shall see. If rules are broken there should be some consequences, but as noted last thread they dont rerun every election where some spending rules were not followed, so what would be proportionate, if it is true.
It was stated last night that the electoral commission have already reviewed this twice and found no evidence of law breaking but they are now investigated all involved in the referendum including the remain campaign
I know. Sometimes further investigations of the same thing uncover new things. Maybe that will happen, maybe not.
What we have found out in the last week about the operations of Cambridge Analytica is justification enough for having another look.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
We shall see. If rules are broken there should be some consequences, but as noted last thread they dont rerun every election where some spending rules were not followed, so what would be proportionate, if it is true.
It was stated last night that the electoral commission have already reviewed this twice and found no evidence of law breaking but they are now investigated all involved in the referendum including the remain campaign
I know. Sometimes further investigations of the same thing uncover new things. Maybe that will happen, maybe not.
What we have found out in the last week about the operations of Cambridge Analytica is justification enough for having another look.
Perhaps we should have a look at why the Treasury produced a prediction which turned out to be Remain propaganda.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
The right shamefully dog-whistled its way through the EU referendum campaign and the London mayoral election =- with Rod Liddle being a perfect example. But he and his mates are absolutely correct about Corbyn. So, not only is the Labour leader's refusal to challenge anti-Semitism morally wrong, it is also politically destructive. Once again, he is the Tory get out of jail free card.
Just as the hard left don’t care about anti-Semitism, the Leavers don’t care about their xenophobic lies. Both get annoyed when you point out their blind spots. Neither are going to do anything about dealing with them.
What does that mean? It means that neither will lose much support because camps are too entrenched. And both are capping their support by entrenching their opponents.
I suspect that the far left's history of hanging out with anti-Semites and Jew-baiters is only now becoming more widely known. I do think it will cost Labour support in some of the more middle-class, anti-Brexit constituencies where the party did well in 2017.
Taking a hostile view of Jews and Israel is not a vote-loser in general. It is likely to help the Labour party gain votes in most areas, with Barnet being one of the few exceptions. While not openly expressed, as it would now be non-PC, such views are just as widely held among the well-to-do as the working classes.
If it is not expressed how do we know that?
Though I don't dispute the possibility such things can be less than obvious. I was very surprised and saddened when my father criticised ed m as a little jew boy, seemingly out of nowhere.
I am convinced that Labour did particularly badly at the 2015 GE precisely because of views such as those held by your father.
Major British political parties fare better when led by a WASP.
Howard gained 33 seats in 2005 despite being Jewish, we even had an ethnically Jewish PM in the 19th century
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
We shall see. If rules are broken there should be some consequences, but as noted last thread they dont rerun every election where some spending rules were not followed, so what would be proportionate, if it is true.
It was stated last night that the electoral commission have already reviewed this twice and found no evidence of law breaking but they are now investigated all involved in the referendum including the remain campaign
I know. Sometimes further investigations of the same thing uncover new things. Maybe that will happen, maybe not.
What we have found out in the last week about the operations of Cambridge Analytica is justification enough for having another look.
I don't think so, though a fairly public investigation of what went on is needed. Let the sunshine of publicity be the disinfectant.
As we all know, the referendum was in law advisory, the Brexit decision was made in Parliament by invoking Article 50, so conducted by due process. Ironically, this was forced on the government by Remainers.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
No we don't. You are irreconcilable. You certainly don't represent all those who voted Remain and your fanaticism precludes any rapprochement. You are like the old Russian Communists after the collapse of the Soviet Union and you will go to your graves swearing it was all a terrible mistake no matter what the outcome.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
No we don't. You are irreconcilable. You certainly don't represent all those who voted Remain and your fanaticism precludes any rapprochement. You are like the old Russian Communists after the collapse of the Soviet Union and you will go to your graves swearing it was all a terrible mistake no matter what the outcome.
Consistently more voters think the vote to Brexit was wrong than right. You need to win some of the sceptics round.
As for me, I would not halt Brexit and I oppose a fresh referendum at present. You might consider that when considering the scale of opposition to Brexit. I'm a relative moderate.
On topic, I think this obviously manufactured anti-semitism storm redux will have just as much effect as when it was wheeled out like clockwork just before every other post-corbyn election by his enemies in the far-right media and their quisling collaborators on Labour’s ultra-Blairite right, i.e. next to nothing. Its just a sign of the desperate situation his opponents now find themselves in that this the best theyve got.
Except, mr wiseman, Corbyn has accepted he spoke in defence of an antisemitic mural. Unwittingly, is his defence, because he did not pay close enough attention, but even if you think the extent of the storm is manufactured, and even you think the aftermath will lead to nothing, the cause of it was legitimate to report and factual.
I'd put Labour's chances at 60% in Barnet, but no higher.
Across London as a whole, there was a swing of 4.5% to Labour between 2014 and 2017. There was no swing in Barnet, suggesting the Conservative vote here is very solid.
There may have been a 4.5% swing to Labour in London between 2014 and 2017 but there was a 2% swing to the Tories from 2014 to 2017 across the UK suggesting that even though Labour may make significant gains in London in May the Tories may actually make gains in England outside the capital
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Isabel Oakeshott claims to be a journalist. I await her story with interest.
I am sure it will be as well researched and corroborated as pig-gate...
Including something because it made the writer smile not journalistic practice?
I doubt the new revelations - which seem to suggest that Vote Leave deliberately flouted the spending caps by setting up fake third parties to channel money through - will break out beyond the bubble.
But they do provide another excellent reason for a referendum on the deal.
Leavers can snort and pooh-pooh all they like, but one observation I would make is that the intellectual case for Brexit - such as it was - is in advanced collapse.
Leavers really just have one argument left: that we voted for it, so we must proceed. IF we have a referendum on the deal, that’s not a great platform.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
No we don't. You are irreconcilable. You certainly don't represent all those who voted Remain and your fanaticism precludes any rapprochement. You are like the old Russian Communists after the collapse of the Soviet Union and you will go to your graves swearing it was all a terrible mistake no matter what the outcome.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
One would have to be very obtuse not to realise that there was for a long time, widespread public unhappiness with the EU. And that unhappiness was not based around a desire for More Europe.
Remain lost because it was selling a bad product (in most voters' eyes).
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
No we don't. You are irreconcilable. You certainly don't represent all those who voted Remain and your fanaticism precludes any rapprochement. You are like the old Russian Communists after the collapse of the Soviet Union and you will go to your graves swearing it was all a terrible mistake no matter what the outcome.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
Cummings kept most of the spend back until the last few weeks, when they went hell for leather on Turkey and immigration.
But to me, 3,000 extra midwifes to save 700 babies looks like it might not be the best use for more NHS spending on a cost/benefit basis.
It made me think that if the government knows that recruiting 3,000 extra midwives would save 700 babies a year they should have done it a long time ago.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
We shall see. If rules are broken there should be some consequences, but as noted last thread they dont rerun every election where some spending rules were not followed, so what would be proportionate, if it is true.
It was stated last night that the electoral commission have already reviewed this twice and found no evidence of law breaking but they are now investigated all involved in the referendum including the remain campaign
I know. Sometimes further investigations of the same thing uncover new things. Maybe that will happen, maybe not.
What we have found out in the last week about the operations of Cambridge Analytica is justification enough for having another look.
I don't think so, though a fairly public investigation of what went on is needed. Let the sunshine of publicity be the disinfectant.
As we all know, the referendum was in law advisory, the Brexit decision was made in Parliament by invoking Article 50, so conducted by due process. Ironically, this was forced on the government by Remainers.
Yes indeed, and a good thing too. I still don't know why the Gov didn't want parliament to own the triggering as it were, but a worthy challenge.
I'd put Labour's chances at 60% in Barnet, but no higher.
Across London as a whole, there was a swing of 4.5% to Labour between 2014 and 2017. There was no swing in Barnet, suggesting the Conservative vote here is very solid.
There may have been a 4.5% swing to Labour in London between 2014 and 2017 but there was a 2% swing to the Tories from 2014 to 2017 across the UK suggesting that even though Labour may make significant gains in London in May the Tories may actually make gains in England outside the capital
Looking at the places up for grabs, I am not so sure. The council seats here do not look favourable for the Tories, though a bit may depend on how former kippers break. Last years GE and local byelections more recently suggest that this is far less to the Tories than was routinely opined here a year ago. There may be isolated Tory gains (TSE may perhaps suggest Sheffield as the lumberjacks go to work), but I reckon these are not areas for major Tory gains:
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
We shall see. If rules are broken there should be some consequences, but as noted last thread they dont rerun every election where some spending rules were not followed, so what would be proportionate, if it is true.
It was stated last night that the electoral commission have already reviewed this twice and found no evidence of law breaking but they are now investigated all involved in the referendum including the remain campaign
I know. Sometimes further investigations of the same thing uncover new things. Maybe that will happen, maybe not.
What we have found out in the last week about the operations of Cambridge Analytica is justification enough for having another look.
Perhaps we should have a look at why the Treasury produced a prediction which turned out to be Remain propaganda.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
Which would not be a terrible outcome, as the existing mandate is looking shaky in itself. That’s the Farage argument too.
But to me, 3,000 extra midwifes to save 700 babies looks like it might not be the best use for more NHS spending on a cost/benefit basis.
It made me think that if the government knows that recruiting 3,000 extra midwives would save 700 babies a year they should have done it a long time ago.
Any government could have recruited them and a lot more besides years ago.
Whether that would have been the best use of limited NHS resources is another matter.
Its certainly a situation where the law of diminishing returns applies.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
That's a matter of opinion. My own view is that the Remain campaign was fought on the wrong issues and they won't make that mistake again. On the other side Leave were allowed to run a xenophobic/racist campaign which they weren't called out on. I think you'd be looking at a completely fresh page.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
No we don't. You are irreconcilable. You certainly don't represent all those who voted Remain and your fanaticism precludes any rapprochement. You are like the old Russian Communists after the collapse of the Soviet Union and you will go to your graves swearing it was all a terrible mistake no matter what the outcome.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
Cummings kept most of the spend back until the last few weeks, when they went hell for leather on Turkey and immigration.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
No we don't. You are irreconcilable. You certainly don't represent all those who voted Remain and your fanaticism precludes any rapprochement. You are like the old Russian Communists after the collapse of the Soviet Union and you will go to your graves swearing it was all a terrible mistake no matter what the outcome.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
One would have to be very obtuse not to realise that there was for a long time, widespread public unhappiness with the EU. And that unhappiness was not based around a desire for More Europe.
Remain lost because it was selling a bad product (in most voters' eyes).
The EU is a great product but Remain weren't selling it. They were offering a bizarre form of insulation from it that was emotionally incoherent.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
No we don't. You are irreconcilable. You certainly don't represent all those who voted Remain and your fanaticism precludes any rapprochement. You are like the old Russian Communists after the collapse of the Soviet Union and you will go to your graves swearing it was all a terrible mistake no matter what the outcome.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
One would have to be very obtuse not to realise that there was for a long time, widespread public unhappiness with the EU. And that unhappiness was not based around a desire for More Europe.
Remain lost because it was selling a bad product (in most voters' eyes).
Yep - and, on top of that, the people leading the Remain campaign had spent the previous 10 years telling voters that the EU was holding the UK back.
But to me, 3,000 extra midwifes to save 700 babies looks like it might not be the best use for more NHS spending on a cost/benefit basis.
It made me think that if the government knows that recruiting 3,000 extra midwives would save 700 babies a year they should have done it a long time ago.
Any government could have recruited them and a lot more besides years ago.
Whether that would have been the best use of limited NHS resources is another matter.
Its certainly a situation where the law of diminishing returns applies.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
Cummings kept most of the spend back until the last few weeks, when they went hell for leather on Turkey and immigration.
Great strategy, and Remain had no rebuttal.
Then, they should have done.
Of course.
There was a great quote in the Shipman book where the South African Lib Dem campaigner - playing a key role for Remain - said something along the lines of, hey we’re getting killed on immigration - why don’t we just restrict it?
Then he realised you can’t just do that in the EU.
Amazing stupidity.
I think if there *were* a vote on the deal, Leave would still win. Remain needs an answer on immigration and still doesn’t have one.
It looks more like a wastebin for the tissues on the table. I suspect just a cold, and need to blow nose occasionally.
While watching a cabinet member chuck up on camera would have some entertainment value, much more likely would be a dash off stage to speak to the great white telephone!
I believe it was a tongue in cheek comment rather than poster actually thinking it was a spew bucket.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
That's a matter of opinion. My own view is that the Remain campaign was fought on the wrong issues and they won't make that mistake again. On the other side Leave were allowed to run a xenophobic/racist campaign which they weren't called out on. I think you'd be looking at a completely fresh page.
I think it woukd be close. I think it woukd be interesting to see if Remain fought on different issues and if that woukd work, especially with seemingly more people passionately for Remain now they have seen leave win, when perhaps they were complacent. But leave definitely were called out on the campaign. The turkey claims were highly misleading for one, and people said so.
And metropolitan bigots like Matthew Parris spray their hatred about 'people like them'.
But you know what, I suspect that people aren't any different to what they've always been.
Only now the internet allows loud-mouths to sound off beyond the limits of their local pub and declining economic growth means that the only way for people to fund the lifestyle they think they deserve is to have wealth taken from other groups.
If there is another vote remain had better make sure they do all their spending correctly, or no doubt wed have a rerun again, if that is given as the reason for the first rerun.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
That's a matter of opinion. My own view is that the Remain campaign was fought on the wrong issues and they won't make that mistake again. On the other side Leave were allowed to run a xenophobic/racist campaign which they weren't called out on. I think you'd be looking at a completely fresh page.
The mistake you're making is thinking most floating voters secretly think like you do.
They don't.
Remain would very probably lose by a bigger margin (and nothing is certain, of course) because they have learnt nothing, and forgotten nothing.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
We shall see. If rules are broken there should be some consequences, but as noted last thread they dont rerun every election where some spending rules were not followed, so what would be proportionate, if it is true.
It was stated last night that the electoral commission have already reviewed this twice and found no evidence of law breaking but they are now investigated all involved in the referendum including the remain campaign
I know. Sometimes further investigations of the same thing uncover new things. Maybe that will happen, maybe not.
What we have found out in the last week about the operations of Cambridge Analytica is justification enough for having another look.
I bet Westminster used them in 2014 as well, time for new indyref and this time not a rigged one.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
No we don't. You are irreconcilable. You certainly don't represent all those who voted Remain and your fanaticism precludes any rapprochement. You are like the old Russian Communists after the collapse of the Soviet Union and you will go to your graves swearing it was all a terrible mistake no matter what the outcome.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
Cummings kept most of the spend back until the last few weeks, when they went hell for leather on Turkey and immigration.
Great strategy, and Remain had no rebuttal.
Then, they should have done.
It's interesting how all these things we could apparently do whilst still in the EU - such as controlling immigration, and blue passports - weren't mentioned by anyone anywhere in the Remain camp, during the campaign.
I'd have thought there's a case that the more Corbyn looks unelectable the more the tories might feel secure enough to move against may, strong enough to withstand the chaos that woukd cause.
And metropolitan bigots like Matthew Parris spray their hatred about 'people like them'.
But you know what, I suspect that people aren't any different to what they've always been.
Only now the internet allows loud-mouths to sound off beyond the limits of their local pub and declining economic growth means that the only way for people to fund the lifestyle they think they deserve is to have wealth taken from other groups.
Parris' article about Clacton and its inhabitants, in 2014, was a real eye-opener.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
That's a matter of opinion. My own view is that the Remain campaign was fought on the wrong issues and they won't make that mistake again. On the other side Leave were allowed to run a xenophobic/racist campaign which they weren't called out on. I think you'd be looking at a completely fresh page.
The mistake you're making is thinking most floating voters secretly think like you do.
They don't.
Remain would very probably lose by a bigger margin (and nothing is certain, of course) because they have learnt nothing, and forgotten nothing.
Actually I don't. I became aware shortly after the start of the Referendum campaign quite how racist many in the country were. I hadn't realised before
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
This story is going absolutely nowhere, though. There’s no-one in any position of power or influence to take it forward. And there’s no hook to grab the attention of anyone outside the political bubble.
The argument that the remain campaign was dodgy adds to the case to rerun the vote.
Both campaigns were crap, in my view. But the idea a new referendum could be fairly administered so it was whiter than white on both sides is naive, in my view.
The EU referendum was extremely high stakes, and the vote was close. That's 90%+ of the problem.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
Cummings kept most of the spend back until the last few weeks, when they went hell for leather on Turkey and immigration.
Great strategy, and Remain had no rebuttal.
Then, they should have done.
It's interesting how all these things we could apparently do whilst still in the EU - such as controlling immigration, and blue passports - weren't mentioned by anyone anywhere in the Remain camp, during the campaign.
Remain was utterly complacent and doubled down on FEAR, because it apparently won the Scottish ref. Blame Cameron and the milksops like Will Straw who led the campaign.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
That's a matter of opinion. My own view is that the Remain campaign was fought on the wrong issues and they won't make that mistake again. On the other side Leave were allowed to run a xenophobic/racist campaign which they weren't called out on. I think you'd be looking at a completely fresh page.
The mistake you're making is thinking most floating voters secretly think like you do.
They don't.
Remain would very probably lose by a bigger margin (and nothing is certain, of course) because they have learnt nothing, and forgotten nothing.
Actually I don't. I became aware shortly after the start of the Referendum campaign quite how racist many in the country were. I hadn't realised before
At least you are honest about where the problem ultimately lies - with the voters.
And metropolitan bigots like Matthew Parris spray their hatred about 'people like them'.
But you know what, I suspect that people aren't any different to what they've always been.
Only now the internet allows loud-mouths to sound off beyond the limits of their local pub and declining economic growth means that the only way for people to fund the lifestyle they think they deserve is to have wealth taken from other groups.
A country full of hate is a country in deep trouble. And that is the country we are turning into. As I say, it will not end well.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
That's a matter of opinion. My own view is that the Remain campaign was fought on the wrong issues and they won't make that mistake again. On the other side Leave were allowed to run a xenophobic/racist campaign which they weren't called out on. I think you'd be looking at a completely fresh page.
The mistake you're making is thinking most floating voters secretly think like you do.
They don't.
Remain would very probably lose by a bigger margin (and nothing is certain, of course) because they have learnt nothing, and forgotten nothing.
The immigration point was certainly made. But it could not be made by the leaders of the Remain campaign for obvious reasons. I am not sure the colour of our passports was an issue for either side.
OT. Listening to the Australian cheating debacle...I can remember examples of individual cheating in international sport but never something involving a whole team. I wonder whether the election of the amoral Trump has created a climate where this sort of behaviour has now become the norm
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
The
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
Cummings kept most of the spend back until the last few weeks, when they went hell for leather on Turkey and immigration.
Great strategy, and Remain had no rebuttal.
Then, they should have done.
It's interesting how all these things we could apparently do whilst still in the EU - such as controlling immigration, and blue passports - weren't mentioned by anyone anywhere in the Remain camp, during the campaign.
Remain was utterly complacent and doubled down on FEAR, because it apparently won the Scottish ref. Blame Cameron and the milksops like Will Straw who led the campaign.
And, I think Remain were afraid of making the case themselves they secretly believed in: which is that More Europe and European federalisation, with the UK having a seat at the table, right at the centre of it, offered a better long-term future than national democracy.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
The Leave victory was based on campaign abuses and xenophobia. Unless it is a stunning success which allows you to rewrite history, in the long-term it is doomed no matter what because of the basic political dynamics that spring from the way Brexit was won.
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
Cummings kept most of the spend back until the last few weeks, when they went hell for leather on Turkey and immigration.
Great strategy, and Remain had no rebuttal.
Then, they should have done.
It's interesting how all these things we could apparently do whilst still in the EU - such as controlling immigration, and blue passports - weren't mentioned by anyone anywhere in the Remain camp, during the campaign.
Remain was utterly complacent and doubled down on FEAR, because it apparently won the Scottish ref. Blame Cameron and the milksops like Will Straw who led the campaign.
Cameron's whole thinking on immigration was amazingly muddled, which always boded I'll for the remain campaign
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
That's a matter of opinion. My own view is that the Remain campaign was fought on the wrong issues and they won't make that mistake again. On the other side Leave were allowed to run a xenophobic/racist campaign which they weren't called out on. I think you'd be looking at a completely fresh page.
The mistake you're making is thinking most floating voters secretly think like you do.
They don't.
Remain would very probably lose by a bigger margin (and nothing is certain, of course) because they have learnt nothing, and forgotten nothing.
Actually I don't. I became aware shortly after the start of the Referendum campaign quite how racist many in the country were. I hadn't realised before
OT. Listening to the Australian cheating debacle...I can remember examples of individual cheating in international sport but never something involving a whole team. I wonder whether the election of the amoral Trump has created a climate where this sort of behaviour has now become the norm
But to me, 3,000 extra midwifes to save 700 babies looks like it might not be the best use for more NHS spending on a cost/benefit basis.
The man's a clown. How long have we been losing 700 babies a year because of the government's parsimony?
Since 1948.
And it would have been a lot more than 700 in the earlier years.
If we recruit 3,000 more midwifes to save 700 babies should we recruit 3,000 more midwifes after that to save another 300 babies and then yet another 3,000 more to save 100 babies ?
Ultimately you could have every pregnant woman have her own midwife following her around 100% of the time. It would reduce baby deaths but it wouldn't IMO be the most effective use of limited resources.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
That's a matter of opinion. My own view is that the Remain campaign was fought on the wrong issues and they won't make that mistake again. On the other side Leave were allowed to run a xenophobic/racist campaign which they weren't called out on. I think you'd be looking at a completely fresh page.
The mistake you're making is thinking most floating voters secretly think like you do.
They don't.
Remain would very probably lose by a bigger margin (and nothing is certain, of course) because they have learnt nothing, and forgotten nothing.
The immigration point was certainly made. But it could not be made by the leaders of the Remain campaign for obvious reasons. I am not sure the colour of our passports was an issue for either side.
Cameron definitely said he wanted to reduce immigration to "Tens of thousands" then proceeded to do nothing about it
OT. Listening to the Australian cheating debacle...I can remember examples of individual cheating in international sport but never something involving a whole team. I wonder whether the election of the amoral Trump has created a climate where this sort of behaviour has now become the norm
oh dear god - really?
There's nothing chivalrous about cricket. It's a sport that is riddled with craft, gamesmanship, and duplicity. It's like playing Diplomacy.
But to me, 3,000 extra midwifes to save 700 babies looks like it might not be the best use for more NHS spending on a cost/benefit basis.
The man's a clown. How long have we been losing 700 babies a year because of the government's parsimony?
So, if the data identifies that the NHS has a high level of new born deaths, analysis indicates that multiple midwives during a pregnancy is a causal factor, trials prove that a single midwife reduces death rates but the solution will require more midwives... the Government should reject the proposal because it will be criticised for not having done it sooner?
And, I think Remain were afraid of making the case themselves they secretly believed in: which is that More Europe and European federalisation, with the UK having a seat at the table, right at the centre of it, offered a better long-term future than national democracy.
Voters sniffed that out.
Setting aside my disagreements with your first sentence, the problem was that the Remain platform itself was Eurosceptic, so anyone who wanted to advocate full UK engagement with the EU was completely neutered and disenfranchised.
And metropolitan bigots like Matthew Parris spray their hatred about 'people like them'.
But you know what, I suspect that people aren't any different to what they've always been.
Only now the internet allows loud-mouths to sound off beyond the limits of their local pub and declining economic growth means that the only way for people to fund the lifestyle they think they deserve is to have wealth taken from other groups.
Parris' article about Clacton and its inhabitants, in 2014, was a real eye-opener.
Invective on Brexit from Jo Maugham, AC Grayling, Matthew Parris and Alistair Campbell, and the like, is dismissable no matter how many times they tweet about. They will always hate Brexit in all its aspects, for all time for reasons of snobbery and intellectual superiority.
It's the everyday softly eurosceptic Remainers, some of whom I work with, who HMG and the Leave camp should be targeting.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Carole Cadwalladr has a story with awkward facts and questions to answer for the Leave campaign. So far all Leave have provided in response is ad hominem and provable lies.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
Oh this story will make no difference now. The Observer could have Boris Johnson on film taking money from Vladimir Putin in return for a commitment to abolish democracy and Leavers wouldn’t care because Brexit.
But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
The
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
Cummings kept most of the spend back until the last few weeks, when they went hell for leather on Turkey and immigration.
Great strategy, and Remain had no rebuttal.
Then, they should have done.
It's interesting how all these things we could apparently do whilst still in the EU - such as controlling immigration, and blue passports - weren't mentioned by anyone anywhere in the Remain camp, during the campaign.
Remain was utterly complacent and doubled down on FEAR, because it apparently won the Scottish ref. Blame Cameron and the milksops like Will Straw who led the campaign.
And, I think Remain were afraid of making the case themselves they secretly believed in: which is that More Europe and European federalisation, with the UK having a seat at the table, right at the centre of it, offered a better long-term future than national democracy.
Voters sniffed that out.
I don’t think there’s any evidence for that whatsoever. Sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Alastair Meeks: 'But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical.'
That boat sailed away some time ago ... If I can't be a citizen of Europe, I will proudly stand for the 'citizen of nowhere' anthem.
I know 1 “citizen of nowhere”
He has organised his life so that he spends less than 90 days in any country each year. He literally does not pay income tax anywhere
I like him on a personal level but find the way he has organised his tax affairs despicable
And metropolitan bigots like Matthew Parris spray their hatred about 'people like them'.
But you know what, I suspect that people aren't any different to what they've always been.
Only now the internet allows loud-mouths to sound off beyond the limits of their local pub and declining economic growth means that the only way for people to fund the lifestyle they think they deserve is to have wealth taken from other groups.
And, right on cue, we have Rees-Mogg out and about in the newspapers this morning:
"Britain would suffer its biggest humiliation since the Suez crisis if the country stays tied to the EU after Brexit, Jacob Rees-Mogg warns"
But to me, 3,000 extra midwifes to save 700 babies looks like it might not be the best use for more NHS spending on a cost/benefit basis.
The man's a clown. How long have we been losing 700 babies a year because of the government's parsimony?
Since 1948.
And it would have been a lot more than 700 in the earlier years.
If we recruit 3,000 more midwifes to save 700 babies should we recruit 3,000 more midwifes after that to save another 300 babies and then yet another 3,000 more to save 100 babies ?
Ultimately you could have every pregnant woman have her own midwife following her around 100% of the time. It would reduce baby deaths but it wouldn't IMO be the most effective use of limited resources.
That depends on the proportion of midwives to expectant mothers and how it has fluctuated through the years, doesn't it?
Alastair Meeks: 'But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical.'
That boat sailed away some time ago ... If I can't be a citizen of Europe, I will proudly stand for the 'citizen of nowhere' anthem.
I know 1 “citizen of nowhere”
He has organised his life so that he spends less than 90 days in any country each year. He literally does not pay income tax anywhere
I like him on a personal level but find the way he has organised his tax affairs despicable
That's an argument in favour of trans continental institutions such as the EU
And, I think Remain were afraid of making the case themselves they secretly believed in: which is that More Europe and European federalisation, with the UK having a seat at the table, right at the centre of it, offered a better long-term future than national democracy.
Voters sniffed that out.
Setting aside my disagreements with your first sentence, the problem was that the Remain platform itself was Eurosceptic, so anyone who wanted to advocate full UK engagement with the EU was completely neutered and disenfranchised.
They were neutered in the official campaign, perhaps, but disenfranchised? Come on. Anyone wanting full engagement with the EU could and did vote Remain, they could make the case, and there were lots of small groups campaigning. Voters like yourself in favour of full integration had just as much of a chance to vote as anyone else. No one prevented a party or group advocating that from being in place for decades to seek our votes.
I happen to think Remain should have been more positive in its case, not just 'we don't much like it but' as its case was, from memory, but you were not disenfranchised. It's one of those words which seems very overused.
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
O But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
The
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
Cummings kept most of the spend back until the last few weeks, when they went hell for leather on Turkey and immigration.
Great strategy, and Remain had no rebuttal.
Then, they should have done.
It's .
Remain was utterly complacent and doubled down on FEAR, because it apparently won the Scottish ref. Blame Cameron and the milksops like Will Straw who led the campaign.
And, I think Remain were afraid of making the case themselves they secretly believed in: which is that More Europe and European federalisation, with the UK having a seat at the table, right at the centre of it, offered a better long-term future than national democracy.
Voters sniffed that out.
I don’t think there’s any evidence for that whatsoever. Sounds like a conspiracy theory.
I don't think it's a conspiracy theory. It's no secret that many Blairites support joining the Euro, as did the CBI and the TUC, and Heseltine and Ken Clarke still do.
I also have it on good authority that George Osborne privately did. I think David Cameron, William Hague and Stuart Rose were more sceptical, but would never have campaigned to reverse it had we actually joined.
And, I think Remain were afraid of making the case themselves they secretly believed in: which is that More Europe and European federalisation, with the UK having a seat at the table, right at the centre of it, offered a better long-term future than national democracy.
Voters sniffed that out.
Setting aside my disagreements with your first sentence, the problem was that the Remain platform itself was Eurosceptic, so anyone who wanted to advocate full UK engagement with the EU was completely neutered and disenfranchised.
To be fair to you, you've never been shy of making that case.
But, you're an exception. I suspect you would have been quietly muzzled had you had a leading - or even semi-public - role within the Remain campaign.
But to me, 3,000 extra midwifes to save 700 babies looks like it might not be the best use for more NHS spending on a cost/benefit basis.
It made me think that if the government knows that recruiting 3,000 extra midwives would save 700 babies a year they should have done it a long time ago.
That’s just the CCO interns doing maths.
I can see how it will be misused politically but the factual basis will be extrapolation at best
And metropolitan bigots like Matthew Parris spray their hatred about 'people like them'.
But you know what, I suspect that people aren't any different to what they've always been.
Only now the internet allows loud-mouths to sound off beyond the limits of their local pub and declining economic growth means that the only way for people to fund the lifestyle they think they deserve is to have wealth taken from other groups.
A country full of hate is a country in deep trouble. And that is the country we are turning into. As I say, it will not end well.
There's always been hatred about but its easier to read it now.
I think a major problem is that we've been promised too much and there's reducing abilities to meet these promises.
Yet politicians still prefer to double down on the magic money tree and any rational discussion is drowned out by fear projects.
More significantly, didn't Davis say that no hard border between NI and the RoI means no cameras? If so, that's a pretty big statement and seems to kill of a technological solution to the current impasse.
Gina Miller certain to take this back to court. When you thought no team could sink lower than the Australians you discover 'Vote Leave' have done just that. If proven the referendum surely has to be re-run
Be careful what you wish for. A re-run referendum would most likely turn out like the Winchester by-election.
That's a matter of opinion. My own view is that the Remain campaign was fought on the wrong issues and they won't make that mistake again. On the other side Leave were allowed to run a xenophobic/racist campaign which they weren't called out on. I think you'd be looking at a completely fresh page.
The mistake you're making is thinking most floating voters secretly think like you do.
They don't.
Remain would very probably lose by a bigger margin (and nothing is certain, of course) because they have learnt nothing, and forgotten nothing.
The immigration point was certainly made. But it could not be made by the leaders of the Remain campaign for obvious reasons. I am not sure the colour of our passports was an issue for either side.
It was not made, and it could not have been made because there was actually very little the UK could do. That's why Cameron tried so hard in his negotiation. The idea we actually had some "secret" level of control we chose not to exercise is retrospective myth-making.
There is an argument that we could have moved our entire benefits and healthcare system to a contributory basis, to massively disincentivise EU migration, but that of course would have been a colossal change that probably would not have commanded domestic political support, nor delivered the required results even if it had.
But to me, 3,000 extra midwifes to save 700 babies looks like it might not be the best use for more NHS spending on a cost/benefit basis.
It made me think that if the government knows that recruiting 3,000 extra midwives would save 700 babies a year they should have done it a long time ago.
That’s just the CCO interns doing maths.
I can see how it will be misused politically but the factual basis will be extrapolation at best
For conspiracy followers real bust up between Cadwalladr and Oakshott on Marr - do not know too much about this bubble story but Cadwallader seems to have an anti Brexit agenda
I gather it is the Brexiteers' Brexiteer versus the Remoaners' Remoaner.
Two sides to every story and this one is going nowhere
O But sooner or later those who wish Brexit to be a success are going to need to find a way of reaching out to those who remain sceptical. Right now, they’re bellyflopping.
The
No it was not. That is just your fevered imagination. It is you who are trying to rewrite history in a typically Soviet fashion.
Cummings kept most of the spend back until the last few weeks, when they went hell for leather on Turkey and immigration.
Great strategy, and Remain had no rebuttal.
Then, they should have done.
It's .
Remain was utterly complacent and doubled down on FEAR, because it apparently won the Scottish ref. Blame Cameron and the milksops like Will Straw who led the campaign.
And, I think Remain were afraid of making the case themselves they secretly believed in: which is that More Europe and European federalisation, with the UK having a seat at the table, right at the centre of it, offered a better long-term future than national democracy.
Voters sniffed that out.
I don’t think there’s any evidence for that whatsoever. Sounds like a conspiracy theory.
I don't think it's a conspiracy theory. It's no secret that many Blairites support joining the Euro, as did the CBI and the TUC, and Heseltine and Ken Clarke still do.
I also have it on good authority that George Osborne privately did. I think David Cameron, William Hague and Stuart Rose were more sceptical, but would never have campaigned to reverse it had we actually joined.
It is literally a theory based on a posited conspiracy.
And metropolitan bigots like Matthew Parris spray their hatred about 'people like them'.
But you know what, I suspect that people aren't any different to what they've always been.
Only now the internet allows loud-mouths to sound off beyond the limits of their local pub and declining economic growth means that the only way for people to fund the lifestyle they think they deserve is to have wealth taken from other groups.
A country full of hate is a country in deep trouble. And that is the country we are turning into. As I say, it will not end well.
We really aren't full of hate.
Our discussions on here are not representative of most people.
We are real obsessive political nerds on here, many of us vent, and some of us, at times, can just be very dickish.
I'd put Labour's chances at 60% in Barnet, but no higher.
Across London as a whole, there was a swing of 4.5% to Labour between 2014 and 2017. There was no swing in Barnet, suggesting the Conservative vote here is very solid.
There may have been a 4.5% swing to Labour in London between 2014 and 2017 but there was a 2% swing to the Tories from 2014 to 2017 across the UK suggesting that even though Labour may make significant gains in London in May the Tories may actually make gains in England outside the capital
Looking at the places up for grabs, I am not so sure. The council seats here do not look favourable for the Tories, though a bit may depend on how former kippers break. Last years GE and local byelections more recently suggest that this is far less to the Tories than was routinely opined here a year ago. There may be isolated Tory gains (TSE may perhaps suggest Sheffield as the lumberjacks go to work), but I reckon these are not areas for major Tory gains:
I disagree, of the Labour parliamentary gains in 2017 outside of London with elections this year eg Bury, Derby, Ipswich, Peterborough, Plymouth and Reading, all are already Labour or NOC.
However there are also a number of councils outside London currently held by Labour or NOC like Basildon, Colchester, Eastleigh, Great Yarmouth, Nuneaton and Bedworth and Worcester which are currently Labour or LD held or NOC and have elections this year which elected a Tory MP last June. Indeed, Walsall, where the Tories gained a seat at the general election, is also up this year and currently NOC.
Comments
Though I don't dispute the possibility such things can be less than obvious. I was very surprised and saddened when my father criticised ed m as a little jew boy, seemingly out of nowhere.
Chipping Barnet has a much lower Jewish population than the other two Barnet constituencies:
Chipping, 6.8% Jewish
Finchley, 21.1% Jewish
Hendon, 17.0% Jewish
As per UKPR for 2011.
Major British political parties fare better when led by a WASP.
While watching a cabinet member chuck up on camera would have some entertainment value, much more likely would be a dash off stage to speak to the great white telephone!
https://twitter.com/CCHQPress/status/977814580046057472
As we all know, the referendum was in law advisory, the Brexit decision was made in Parliament by invoking Article 50, so conducted by due process. Ironically, this was forced on the government by Remainers.
As for me, I would not halt Brexit and I oppose a fresh referendum at present. You might consider that when considering the scale of opposition to Brexit. I'm a relative moderate.
But to me, 3,000 extra midwifes to save 700 babies looks like it might not be the best use for more NHS spending on a cost/benefit basis.
I suspect they think they never need the votes of these people ever again.
But they do provide another excellent reason for a referendum on the deal.
Leavers can snort and pooh-pooh all they like, but one observation I would make is that the intellectual case for Brexit - such as it was - is in advanced collapse.
Leavers really just have one argument left: that we voted for it, so we must proceed. IF we have a referendum on the deal, that’s not a great platform.
https://twitter.com/PaddyBriggs/status/977465859856879616
Remain lost because it was selling a bad product (in most voters' eyes).
Great strategy, and Remain had no rebuttal.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_local_elections,_2018
That’s the Farage argument too.
Whether that would have been the best use of limited NHS resources is another matter.
Its certainly a situation where the law of diminishing returns applies.
There was a great quote in the Shipman book where the South African Lib Dem campaigner - playing a key role for Remain - said something along the lines of, hey we’re getting killed on immigration - why don’t we just restrict it?
Then he realised you can’t just do that in the EU.
Amazing stupidity.
I think if there *were* a vote on the deal, Leave would still win. Remain needs an answer on immigration and still doesn’t have one.
But you know what, I suspect that people aren't any different to what they've always been.
Only now the internet allows loud-mouths to sound off beyond the limits of their local pub and declining economic growth means that the only way for people to fund the lifestyle they think they deserve is to have wealth taken from other groups.
"So Mr Corbyn is almost certainly now unelectable and Mrs May is, as of the time of writing, secure in her position. Imagine that."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/24/vladimir-putin-donald-trump-have-united-uk-eu-ways-no-one-expected/
They don't.
Remain would very probably lose by a bigger margin (and nothing is certain, of course) because they have learnt nothing, and forgotten nothing.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmhealth/353/35305.htm#_idTextAnchor008
The EU referendum was extremely high stakes, and the vote was close. That's 90%+ of the problem.
Voters sniffed that out.
And it would have been a lot more than 700 in the earlier years.
If we recruit 3,000 more midwifes to save 700 babies should we recruit 3,000 more midwifes after that to save another 300 babies and then yet another 3,000 more to save 100 babies ?
Ultimately you could have every pregnant woman have her own midwife following her around 100% of the time. It would reduce baby deaths but it wouldn't IMO be the most effective use of limited resources.
It's the everyday softly eurosceptic Remainers, some of whom I work with, who HMG and the Leave camp should be targeting.
https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/977832009098846208
He must have been unwell to make that admission, or had a sudden attack of sincerity.
He has organised his life so that he spends less than 90 days in any country each year. He literally does not pay income tax anywhere
I like him on a personal level but find the way he has organised his tax affairs despicable
"Britain would suffer its biggest humiliation since the Suez crisis if the country stays tied to the EU after Brexit, Jacob Rees-Mogg warns"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5541275/Jacob-Rees-Mogg-Brexit-betrayal-humiliation-like-Suez.html
I happen to think Remain should have been more positive in its case, not just 'we don't much like it but' as its case was, from memory, but you were not disenfranchised. It's one of those words which seems very overused.
I also have it on good authority that George Osborne privately did. I think David Cameron, William Hague and Stuart Rose were more sceptical, but would never have campaigned to reverse it had we actually joined.
But, you're an exception. I suspect you would have been quietly muzzled had you had a leading - or even semi-public - role within the Remain campaign.
I can see how it will be misused politically but the factual basis will be extrapolation at best
I think a major problem is that we've been promised too much and there's reducing abilities to meet these promises.
Yet politicians still prefer to double down on the magic money tree and any rational discussion is drowned out by fear projects.
There is an argument that we could have moved our entire benefits and healthcare system to a contributory basis, to massively disincentivise EU migration, but that of course would have been a colossal change that probably would not have commanded domestic political support, nor delivered the required results even if it had.
Our discussions on here are not representative of most people.
We are real obsessive political nerds on here, many of us vent, and some of us, at times, can just be very dickish.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5540871/DAN-HODGES-Theresa-save-now.html
However there are also a number of councils outside London currently held by Labour or NOC like Basildon, Colchester, Eastleigh, Great Yarmouth, Nuneaton and Bedworth and Worcester which are currently Labour or LD held or NOC and have elections this year which elected a Tory MP last June. Indeed, Walsall, where the Tories gained a seat at the general election, is also up this year and currently NOC.