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  • Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    The review saves Paine.
    They’ve got a lot more Paine to come, the cheating Mark Recklesses.
    This is worse than Bloodgate.

    Time for Her Majesty to appoint a new Viceroy of Australia to civilise those cheating Aussies.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    10 wickets for 50 runs, worse than England the other day if you take 57-0 as the starting point (which is a bit unfair).
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.

    The only thing people achieve by cheating at sport is never to know whether they'd have won or not.

    Good evening, everyone.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,312




    PS. I’m now off to the pub. That’s not been automated. See you all later

    It kind of has. Why are pubs declining? Because more and more people drink at home - because it's cheaper, and you don't have to interrupt your Facebook session. So are corner shops booming? No, because they're undercut by supermarkets. So are there lots more supermarket staff? No, because most people go for the self-service tills.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,090
    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.
    Ah, you considered a career in the City?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,960
    Good afternoon, Miss JGP.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2018
    On the topic of Facebook I'll never understand why people are prepared to give away so many details about their lives online when if you walked up to them in the street and asked for the same information they would never give it to you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582
    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.

    The only thing people achieve by cheating at sport is never to know whether they'd have won or not.

    Smith is the best batsman in the world, but cannot win every game for his team. Apparently not knowing if he was done under their own skill or not was not important as the winning.

    I would imagine what happened is that for a long time the team have pushed right up to the limits of the rules, as happens in many sports to seize an advantage, and mentally decided that since everyone does that, ignoring the rules altogether was not such a big step. They were, of course, wrong. All crimes are not equal.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312




    PS. I’m now off to the pub. That’s not been automated. See you all later

    It kind of has. Why are pubs declining? Because more and more people drink at home - because it's cheaper, and you don't have to interrupt your Facebook session. So are corner shops booming? No, because they're undercut by supermarkets. So are there lots more supermarket staff? No, because most people go for the self-service tills.
    Overly simplistic but you can understand why.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,960
    Mr. JS, because it's become the norm. Lots of people do stuff because other people do it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582
    Interim captain Tim Paine apologising to the fans. Is he in the leadership group I wonder?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,090
    kle4 said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.

    The only thing people achieve by cheating at sport is never to know whether they'd have won or not.

    Smith is the best batsman in the world, but cannot win every game for his team. Apparently not knowing if he was done under their own skill or not was not important as the winning.

    I would imagine what happened is that for a long time the team have pushed right up to the limits of the rules, as happens in many sports to seize an advantage, and mentally decided that since everyone does that, ignoring the rules altogether was not such a big step. They were, of course, wrong. All crimes are not equal.
    If I am honest, if Smith had been caught tampering with the ball on a low level and ineffectually like this, I would have laughed at his embarrassment, seen him serve a one match ban and fine, and been happy to think he could return to captain Aus. Let's face it, in terms of seriousness this sort of thing isn't much different from not walking, or claiming to have hit the ball when given LBW, both of which are very common.

    What I think is a resigning matter is that he forced another player to do it in the apparent hope of escaping notice. Moreover, the most junior player, and the one whose place is least secure and could therefore not afford to say no. That is bullying and that takes it to a different level from Atherton, du Plessis or even Afridi.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.
    Ah, you considered a career in the City?
    There are many good, well paid jobs where an academic qualification is meaningless in the context of doing that job well. Cheating in that context may be considered a skill,
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,090
    kle4 said:

    Interim captain Tim Paine apologising to the fans. Is he in the leadership group I wonder?

    Apparently not. The 'leadership group' appears to be a clique of Smith's cronies. Paine was only recalled recently and as he is older is an outsider who wasn't wholly welcome.

    I'm assuming Warner will be dropped too. Will be interesting to see what happens to Starc, Lyon and Hazlewood.

    I think Paine probably is the one who will continue as captain for now, if only because the only realistic alternative is Mitchell Marsh who is very inexperienced by comparison.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.

    The only thing people achieve by cheating at sport is never to know whether they'd have won or not.

    Smith is the best batsman in the world, but cannot win every game for his team. Apparently not knowing if he was done under their own skill or not was not important as the winning.

    I would imagine what happened is that for a long time the team have pushed right up to the limits of the rules, as happens in many sports to seize an advantage, and mentally decided that since everyone does that, ignoring the rules altogether was not such a big step. They were, of course, wrong. All crimes are not equal.
    If I am honest, if Smith had been caught tampering with the ball on a low level and ineffectually like this, I would have laughed at his embarrassment, seen him serve a one match ban and fine, and been happy to think he could return to captain Aus. Let's face it, in terms of seriousness this sort of thing isn't much different from not walking, or claiming to have hit the ball when given LBW, both of which are very common.

    What I think is a resigning matter is that he forced another player to do it in the apparent hope of escaping notice. Moreover, the most junior player, and the one whose place is least secure and could therefore not afford to say no. That is bullying and that takes it to a different level from Atherton, du Plessis or even Afridi.
    It's that, and the premeditation. People being caught doing or attempting this sort of thing could claim a moment of madness, however wrong they knew it to be. Under Smith the aussies sat together in a group and decided what way they could outright cheat. As he put it himself, they decided it was an opportunity to gain an advantage. Then they picked out a patsy to do it. It's not a mere bad apple, there's a problem with the orchard.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    AndyJS said:

    On the topic of Facebook I'll never understand why people are prepared to give away so many details about their lives online when if you walked up to them in the street and asked for the same information they would never give it to you.

    Facebook offers them something in return - publicity?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    kle4 said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.

    The only thing people achieve by cheating at sport is never to know whether they'd have won or not.

    Smith is the best batsman in the world, but cannot win every game for his team. Apparently not knowing if he was done under their own skill or not was not important as the winning.

    I would imagine what happened is that for a long time the team have pushed right up to the limits of the rules, as happens in many sports to seize an advantage, and mentally decided that since everyone does that, ignoring the rules altogether was not such a big step. They were, of course, wrong. All crimes are not equal.
    What puzzles me is the outrage voiced by many Strines, as if cheating is alien to their culture.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582

    kle4 said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.

    The only thing people achieve by cheating at sport is never to know whether they'd have won or not.

    Smith is the best batsman in the world, but cannot win every game for his team. Apparently not knowing if he was done under their own skill or not was not important as the winning.

    I would imagine what happened is that for a long time the team have pushed right up to the limits of the rules, as happens in many sports to seize an advantage, and mentally decided that since everyone does that, ignoring the rules altogether was not such a big step. They were, of course, wrong. All crimes are not equal.
    What puzzles me is the outrage voiced by many Strines, as if cheating is alien to their culture.
    Strines?

    As for any outrage, we'd all like to think our guys and gals wouldn't cheat, even if we think others do. How many of our great cyclists will end up tarnished for example?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Interim captain Tim Paine apologising to the fans. Is he in the leadership group I wonder?

    Apparently not. The 'leadership group' appears to be a clique of Smith's cronies. Paine was only recalled recently and as he is older is an outsider who wasn't wholly welcome.

    I'm assuming Warner will be dropped too. Will be interesting to see what happens to Starc, Lyon and Hazlewood.

    I think Paine probably is the one who will continue as captain for now, if only because the only realistic alternative is Mitchell Marsh who is very inexperienced by comparison.
    Warner is a cancer
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,833
    edited March 2018
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.

    The only thing people achieve by cheating at sport is never to know whether they'd have won or not.

    Smith is the best batsman in the world, but cannot win every game for his team. Apparently not knowing if he was done under their own skill or not was not important as the winning.

    I would imagine what happened is that for a long time the team have pushed right up to the limits of the rules, as happens in many sports to seize an advantage, and mentally decided that since everyone does that, ignoring the rules altogether was not such a big step. They were, of course, wrong. All crimes are not equal.
    If I am honest, if Smith had been caught tampering with the ball on a low level and ineffectually like this, I would have laughed at his embarrassment, seen him serve a one match ban and fine, and been happy to think he could return to captain Aus. Let's face it, in terms of seriousness this sort of thing isn't much different from not walking, or claiming to have hit the ball when given LBW, both of which are very common.

    What I think is a resigning matter is that he forced another player to do it in the apparent hope of escaping notice. Moreover, the most junior player, and the one whose place is least secure and could therefore not afford to say no. That is bullying and that takes it to a different level from Atherton, du Plessis or even Afridi.
    It's that, and the premeditation. People being caught doing or attempting this sort of thing could claim a moment of madness, however wrong they knew it to be. Under Smith the aussies sat together in a group and decided what way they could outright cheat. As he put it himself, they decided it was an opportunity to gain an advantage. Then they picked out a patsy to do it. It's not a mere bad apple, there's a problem with the orchard.
    Absolutely, which is why this up there with the Pakistani no-balling or drugs test failures. It’s an organised effort to deliberately operate outside what they knew to be the rules.

    It’s not like an F1 team hoping to have the technical regulations interpreted a certain way, it’s out and out cheating from the convicts.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,090
    kle4 said:

    It's that, and the premeditation. People being caught doing or attempting this sort of thing could claim a moment of madness, however wrong they knew it to be. Under Smith the aussies sat together in a group and decided what way they could outright cheat. As he put it himself, they decided it was an opportunity to gain an advantage. Then they picked out a patsy to do it. It's not a mere bad apple, there's a problem with the orchard.

    Almost all ball tampering is premeditated. Trescothick and du Plessis didn't just happen to have the right mints in their mouths, did they? Or Atherton find soil miraculously appearing in his pockets?

    No, it's the way he didn't have the balls (no pun intended, for once) to do it himself that tells me Smith is not fit to be leader.

    Many years ago the ECB drew up a fascinating report on ball tampering largely written by former Gloucestershire stalwart and one-Test wonder Mike Smith. Some information here:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/4488895.stm
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    edited March 2018
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.

    The only thing people achieve by cheating at sport is never to know whether they'd have won or not.

    Smith is the best batsman in the world, but cannot win every game for his team. Apparently not knowing if he was done under their own skill or not was not important as the winning.

    I would imagine what happened is that for a long time the team have pushed right up to the limits of the rules, as happens in many sports to seize an advantage, and mentally decided that since everyone does that, ignoring the rules altogether was not such a big step. They were, of course, wrong. All crimes are not equal.
    What puzzles me is the outrage voiced by many Strines, as if cheating is alien to their culture.
    Strines?

    As for any outrage, we'd all like to think our guys and gals wouldn't cheat, even if we think others do. How many of our great cyclists will end up tarnished for example?
    I worked for ANZ for a while - full of Strines speaking Strine.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,833
    Aussie PM speaks:
    Malcolm Turnbull, the Prime Minister, said: “It’s their [Cricket Australia’s] responsibility to deal with it, but I have to say that [to] the whole nation, who holds those who wear the Baggy Green up on a pedestal, about as high as you can get in Australia... this is a shocking disappointment”
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/03/25/australia-has-finally-lost-faith-arrogant-cheating-cricket-team/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841
    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.

    The only thing people achieve by cheating at sport is never to know whether they'd have won or not.

    Good evening, everyone.
    It'd be interesting to know (not that cheats would necessarily tell the truth), but I can see several potential factors for sports cheats:

    *) Some people will do anything to *win*. Whether in business or sports. They are, I think, a minority.

    *) A match is not just a few hours or days. Often it is the result of dedicating yourself to your sport from before your early teens; turning up on wet weekends to play; your family having to drive you to competitions all over the country, and then the endless hours of training and practice. They tell themselves that they deserve success for the sacrifice.

    *) The reward for cheating (if not caught) can be very high, and sometimes enough to turn even a generally honest person.

    *) Many sportsmen have short careers, and if they don't make a name for themselves that they can use later, or earn a lot of money in the meantime, they'll be stacking shelves at Tescos.

    *) Some sports (cycling is one) have cheating so endemic that the pressure to cheat must be immense - the only way you can compete with the other cheats is to cheat yourself.

    And there are probably many more.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,914
    Why - if machines are so much more productive than horses - should we worry about the plight of horses? They lost the "survival of the fittest battle". And if robots are better than us, why should we hold them back. Better we recognise that we simply aren't as good as them, and accept our new subservient position now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582
    rcs1000 said:

    Why - if machines are so much more productive than horses - should we worry about the plight of horses? They lost the "survival of the fittest battle". And if robots are better than us, why should we hold them back. Better we recognise that we simply aren't as good as them, and accept our new subservient position now.

    Well, just so long as we don't create a Skynet, that'll be fine.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Why - if machines are so much more productive than horses - should we worry about the plight of horses? They lost the "survival of the fittest battle". And if robots are better than us, why should we hold them back. Better we recognise that we simply aren't as good as them, and accept our new subservient position now.

    Well, just so long as we don't create a Skynet, that'll be fine.
    They're over our heads now: :)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(satellite)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,833
    If you have an Android phone with a Facebook app, they’ve been logging your calls and text messages for years...
    https://yro.slashdot.org/story/18/03/25/056246/facebook-scraped-call-text-message-data-for-years-from-android-phones
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841
    Sandpit said:

    If you have an Android phone with a Facebook app, they’ve been logging your calls and text messages for years...
    https://yro.slashdot.org/story/18/03/25/056246/facebook-scraped-call-text-message-data-for-years-from-android-phones

    It's important to stress that this is the metadata, rather than the actual contents of the call and messages. That's bad enough, but they're not listening in to your conversations.

    I'm unsure how it can be argued that granting access to your contacts also allows them to access logs as well.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,833

    Sandpit said:

    If you have an Android phone with a Facebook app, they’ve been logging your calls and text messages for years...
    https://yro.slashdot.org/story/18/03/25/056246/facebook-scraped-call-text-message-data-for-years-from-android-phones

    It's important to stress that this is the metadata, rather than the actual contents of the call and messages. That's bad enough, but they're not listening in to your conversations.

    I'm unsure how it can be argued that granting access to your contacts also allows them to access logs as well.
    It sounds like an Android permissions f-up which Facebook ruthlessly exploited until it was closed down last year. Yes, the call and message logs rather than call recordings or message contents.

    The one thing I like about Apple is that they treat you as their customer, they make their money by selling hardware and services rather than by selling personal data on their users.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841
    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,416
    2 things happening at the moment I cannot get worked up about - ball tampering (at least they are trying to win unlike some other teams and i actually think its less of a crime than broad not walking when clearly caught in the ashes ) and facebook data issues - i mean people trying to influence elections ! wow how outrageous - are we really that paranoid about it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582

    2 things happening at the moment I cannot get worked up about - ball tampering (at least they are trying to win unlike some other teams and i actually think its less of a crime than broad not walking when clearly caught in the ashes ) and facebook data issues - i mean people trying to influence elections ! wow how outrageous - are we really that paranoid about it?

    If we don't care about rules then we should get rid of them, not ignore them. If the rules themselves then they should be changed, not ignored.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,416
    anyway the game of test cricket especially would benefit from giving a bit more help to the bowler
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,090

    2 things happening at the moment I cannot get worked up about - ball tampering (at least they are trying to win unlike some other teams and i actually think its less of a crime than broad not walking when clearly caught in the ashes ) and facebook data issues - i mean people trying to influence elections ! wow how outrageous - are we really that paranoid about it?

    You've missed out the ongoing saga that Corbyn endorses antisemitism and is governing Labour via a clique of third rate nobodies.

    Of course there are those posters who think these are nothing to get worked up about either.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,954

    2 things happening at the moment I cannot get worked up about - ball tampering (at least they are trying to win unlike some other teams and i actually think its less of a crime than broad not walking when clearly caught in the ashes ) and facebook data issues - i mean people trying to influence elections ! wow how outrageous - are we really that paranoid about it?

    At least they are trying to win? That's hardly an excuse for cheating.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    I see it's kicking off in Barcelona.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,416

    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?

    advertisers may go away for a while but most facebook users couldn't care less or at least enough to stop using it
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    2 things happening at the moment I cannot get worked up about - ball tampering (at least they are trying to win unlike some other teams and i actually think its less of a crime than broad not walking when clearly caught in the ashes ) and facebook data issues - i mean people trying to influence elections ! wow how outrageous - are we really that paranoid about it?

    I don't think Facebook actually did the deed vis-a-vis elections, it facilitated it - wittingly or unwittingly seems to be the issue. How Facebook makes its money is now in focus. Its shares have taken a big hit and I think it faces an existential risk because that is now front and centre.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582

    anyway the game of test cricket especially would benefit from giving a bit more help to the bowler

    While that is possibly true, that the cheaters themselves have not tried to use that one in their defence shows that it is irrelevant to this incident. The South African bowlers seemed to get by just fine. It is not up to individuals or teams to decide they don't like the rules and so to break them.

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    2 things happening at the moment I cannot get worked up about - ball tampering (at least they are trying to win unlike some other teams and i actually think its less of a crime than broad not walking when clearly caught in the ashes ) and facebook data issues - i mean people trying to influence elections ! wow how outrageous - are we really that paranoid about it?

    Agreed. If you want to worry about Big Data, facebook is not the place to start. It is surely much more frightening that if you have a Clubcard, Tesco knows exactly how many tubes of piles ointment and sachets of Angels Delight you have bought in the last 20 years, and your ISP knows everything you have ever googled; facebook only knows stuff which you don't mind your 300 closest friends knowing. And, yes, targeted messages to key demographics is not anything new, and the fuss about evil new technology puts one in mind of the Peoples Front of Uruk contesting the 3500 BC election result on the grounds that Gilgamesh was using this newfangled writing malarkey to get his message across, the total cun_.*

    *cuneiform scribe, what did you think I meant?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841

    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?

    advertisers may go away for a while but most facebook users couldn't care less or at least enough to stop using it
    'Most' Facebook user might not care, but it does not have to be 'most'. The same network effects that enabled their rapid growth could happen in reverse. We've already seen Musk pull Tesla and SpaceX's pages from FB (not something I agree with). And we saw how Snap had problems with Kylie Jenner.

    I think people only manage one social network well; they won't want to be on Facebook and Myspace for everyday use. If the network has another purpose - for instance Twitter - fair enough. But Twitter does not fulfil FB's rule.

    If enough celebs move elsewhere, their fans will follow. And if enough of them follow, their friends and family will as well (or leave social networks altogether). If the end comes, it may come very fast.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,833

    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?

    The issue is that ‘this sh*t’ is the entire business model. Unless they’re charging you a subscription fee then you’re the product.

    All that’s changed in the last couple of weeks is public awareness of what these companies do and how they operate. Facebook are desperate to make this a CA problem, but there’s a dozen more slightly less well known CAs out there, giving Facebook billions of dollars a year for your data.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841
    No wonder no-one from Vote Leave turned up at Channel 4. It sounds like they wanted about ten of them to turn up, and only provided one chair!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,090
    Sandpit said:

    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?

    The issue is that ‘this sh*t’ is the entire business model. Unless they’re charging you a subscription fee then you’re the product.

    All that’s changed in the last couple of weeks is public awareness of what these companies do and how they operate. Facebook are desperate to make this a CA problem, but there’s a dozen more slightly less well known CAs out there, giving Facebook billions of dollars a year for your data.
    I think Cricket Australia have enough problems right now without adding Facebook's! :smiley:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841
    Sandpit said:

    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?

    The issue is that ‘this sh*t’ is the entire business model. Unless they’re charging you a subscription fee then you’re the product.

    All that’s changed in the last couple of weeks is public awareness of what these companies do and how they operate. Facebook are desperate to make this a CA problem, but there’s a dozen more slightly less well known CAs out there, giving Facebook billions of dollars a year for your data.
    Yep.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,482
    Sandpit said:

    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?

    The issue is that ‘this sh*t’ is the entire business model. Unless they’re charging you a subscription fee then you’re the product.
    Hmm, is there any model like that closer to home? possibly :)

    I have a FB profile and do not plan to delete it, but am careful of my settings and what I post. At the moment my Med School Reunion is being planned there, so it does have its uses.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,960
    To paraphrase Lady Whiteadder: two chairs would be an extravagance.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?

    advertisers may go away for a while but most facebook users couldn't care less or at least enough to stop using it
    Its more like : remain enthusiasts will quit facebook and stop spamming peoples timeline with their misinformation and whining about brexit.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?

    The issue is that ‘this sh*t’ is the entire business model. Unless they’re charging you a subscription fee then you’re the product.
    Hmm, is there any model like that closer to home? possibly :)

    I have a FB profile and do not plan to delete it, but am careful of my settings and what I post. At the moment my Med School Reunion is being planned there, so it does have its uses.
    An issue is that you *think* you are being careful with your settings. Until recently (and perhaps even now), the settings were such that you could think you were being careful when you were not.

    And there was a good reason for that: Facebook needed that data, so it was in their interests to make it difficult for the user to prevent it.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,024
    edited March 2018
    With Australian cricketers and a non-stop flights in the news I wonder if anyone will try to beat David Boon's 52 can record:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlLqvFfw9ig
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,286
    edited March 2018
    Year of GE Market - 2018 has been drifting over last couple of days - last matched at 8.6 - longest ever price (excluding tiny error trades).

    I see it reported today that EU Council will be on 19th Oct so no way deal done before then.

    If deal is done on 19th Oct then by time it gets to vote in Parliament (*) even if voted down there wouldn't be time for a GE before Christmas.

    (*) Also reported vote in Parliament likely won't be until after OBR has done full forecast on the deal which itself will take several weeks - ie OBR forecast unlikely to be done before late Nov.

    And if deal not done at EU Council on 19th Oct then presumably negotiations would continue until a later emergency summit - which just moves whole process back even further.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,677

    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?

    Facebook provide a useful communication platform. It's free so people are, I believe, OK with it being supported by advertising. They're probably mostly OK with a degree of targeting on an opt in basis. What they are not ok with, once they are aware of the situation, is Facebook analysing their every communication and associating them with people they don't even know, and then monetizing it. They aren't chatting to their mums on a Saturday evening to have their privacy grossly subverted. No-one knows what Facebook does with their data. Their modes of operation and terms of conditions keep changing. I do think Facebook is the worst offender of the big platforms. Instagram and Twitter are probably OK. Google is borderline and LinkedIn is dodgy but at least there is a quid pro quo in terms of job opportunities.

    Bottom line social media companies need to explain exactly what they do with user data in simple and easy to understand terms and users need to opt in to each such use. Facebook can still be a profitable company. Not quite as mega though. IMO
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,841
    calum said:
    The last two words of that are the important ones. They are unnecessary, unless they are going to take the line that they don't exist. ;)
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 618
    calum said:
    Only the true Messiah denies it twice.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,898




    PS. I’m now off to the pub. That’s not been automated. See you all later

    It kind of has. Why are pubs declining? Because more and more people drink at home - because it's cheaper, and you don't have to interrupt your Facebook session. So are corner shops booming? No, because they're undercut by supermarkets. So are there lots more supermarket staff? No, because most people go for the self-service tills.
    Now back, fed and watered. i‘m not interested in drinking beer at home because in the pub I meet all sorts of people, some interesting, some admittedly less so. And I’d rather chat face to face than on Facebook.
    Difficult to have the snap back and fro banter on Facebook. Or even PB.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,482

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    It's possible that this is just the start of the revelations, and I'm starting to wonder if this might be an extinction-level event for Facebook as an independent company. 'Facebook' will always have a value, but the damage might mean they become predated rather than predators of other companies.

    They won't be the only offenders, and I doubt they're the worst. But the fact that they're the first to get caught out, and are so big, makes it difficult for them.

    The question comes how deep the brand loyalty to them is. I only use FB to keep in contact with a few family and friends; if and when most of those move onto another network, I will as well.

    Their fall may be quicker than their rise.

    On the other hand, what alternatives are there that we can guarantee didn't do this sh*t?

    The issue is that ‘this sh*t’ is the entire business model. Unless they’re charging you a subscription fee then you’re the product.
    Hmm, is there any model like that closer to home? possibly :)

    I have a FB profile and do not plan to delete it, but am careful of my settings and what I post. At the moment my Med School Reunion is being planned there, so it does have its uses.
    An issue is that you *think* you are being careful with your settings. Until recently (and perhaps even now), the settings were such that you could think you were being careful when you were not.

    And there was a good reason for that: Facebook needed that data, so it was in their interests to make it difficult for the user to prevent it.
    I agree, and they do like to shift their setting to make it harder.

    I think particularly out of order is sharing contact details. I can consent to my own stuff being shared, but not on behalf of others.

    This is a useful little guide to turning off third party stuff:

    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/how-change-your-facebook-settings-opt-out-platform-api-sharing
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    calum said:
    Is this still mural-gate or something new?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,898
    rcs1000 said:

    Why - if machines are so much more productive than horses - should we worry about the plight of horses? They lost the "survival of the fittest battle". And if robots are better than us, why should we hold them back. Better we recognise that we simply aren't as good as them, and accept our new subservient position now.

    Any horses I back have lost the ‘survival of the fittest’ battle. Only trouble it’s not evident early enough.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046

    calum said:
    Is this still mural-gate or something new?
    Mural-gate and covering all bases

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/977963655219286017
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited March 2018
    Has mural-gate been covered on the BBC News Channel/BBC One? I’ve seen it discussed on twitter, and even on the BBC News website, but it didn’t seem to feature at all on the TV news yesterday, with attention being given to Owen Smith’s sacking instead.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Has mural-gate been covered on the BBC News Channel/BBC One? I’ve seen a lot of discussed on twitter, and even on the BBC News website, but it didn’t seem to feature at all on the TV news yesterday, with attention being given to Owen Smith’s sacking instead.

    It was raised this morning on Marr and Watson gave a non-apology.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,810




    PS. I’m now off to the pub. That’s not been automated. See you all later

    It kind of has. Why are pubs declining? Because more and more people drink at home - because it's cheaper, and you don't have to interrupt your Facebook session. So are corner shops booming? No, because they're undercut by supermarkets. So are there lots more supermarket staff? No, because most people go for the self-service tills.
    Are self service till manufacturers booming
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274




    PS. I’m now off to the pub. That’s not been automated. See you all later

    It kind of has. Why are pubs declining? Because more and more people drink at home - because it's cheaper, and you don't have to interrupt your Facebook session. So are corner shops booming? No, because they're undercut by supermarkets. So are there lots more supermarket staff? No, because most people go for the self-service tills.
    I thought there was more people employed in the supermarket sector?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Off thread

    Just how toothless is the ICC.? Just as Atherton didn't get what he deserved, so the punishment meted out by the ICC today is pathetic. Smith should get a de minimus 12 month ban from ALL forms of cricket, so should Warner, as for the younger guy, one is open to persuasion.

    The punishment has to be serious enough to stop it happening. One Test isn't even a smack on the wrists.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    jayfdee said:

    calum said:
    Only the true Messiah denies it twice.
    The cock will crow a third time..
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    Has mural-gate been covered on the BBC News Channel/BBC One? I’ve seen a lot of discussed on twitter, and even on the BBC News website, but it didn’t seem to feature at all on the TV news yesterday, with attention being given to Owen Smith’s sacking instead.

    It was raised this morning on Marr and Watson gave a non-apology.
    Ah okay. No surprises there re Watson non apology as he’s been defending all things Corbyn for sometime now. It is a bit concerning though that it doesn’t (to my knowledge anyway) seem to have featured very much on the BBC News at 6 or 10. Anti-semitism in the country’s main opposition party should be one of, if not the biggest story of the day and I wonder just how many actually know about it if it’s not getting enough coverage.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,810
    tlg86 said:

    I see it's kicking off in Barcelona.

    So it should , government have gone well over the top and a disgrace that UK and EU have not condemned them and gave them ultimatim re democracy. Makes the Russians look like angels.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Forget Blue Passport nonsense....

    Mars is set to make Maltesers the shape of FLAT buttons in a bid to ‘fight falling sales’

    Time to grab the pitchfork....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2018

    Has mural-gate been covered on the BBC News Channel/BBC One? I’ve seen a lot of discussed on twitter, and even on the BBC News website, but it didn’t seem to feature at all on the TV news yesterday, with attention being given to Owen Smith’s sacking instead.

    It was raised this morning on Marr and Watson gave a non-apology.
    Ah okay. No surprises there re Watson non apology as he’s been defending all things Corbyn for sometime now. It is a bit concerning though that it doesn’t (to my knowledge anyway) seem to have featured very much on the BBC News at 6 or 10. Anti-semitism in the country’s main opposition party should be one of, if not the biggest story of the day and I wonder just how many actually know about it if it’s not getting enough coverage.
    I do wonder how Mrs May posting in a neo-Nazi Facebook group or two and defending the removal of a Nazi mural would have been reported....

    I am not sure a non-apology would have done the trick.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,810

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Australia lose by 334 runs.

    Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

    I struggle to understand the mentality of cheating, in anything. The fact of winning/passing an exam/whatever obviously must outweigh the knowledge that you didn't really achieve it by your own efforts. But if you didn't do it by your own efforts, what's the point?

    I could qualify for the highest-paid job in the world by copying from an answer-sheet, but it wouldn't give me the knowledge to do the job.

    The only thing people achieve by cheating at sport is never to know whether they'd have won or not.

    Good evening, everyone.
    It'd be interesting to know (not that cheats would necessarily tell the truth), but I can see several potential factors for sports cheats:

    *) Some people will do anything to *win*. Whether in business or sports. They are, I think, a minority.

    *) A match is not just a few hours or days. Often it is the result of dedicating yourself to your sport from before your early teens; turning up on wet weekends to play; your family having to drive you to competitions all over the country, and then the endless hours of training and practice. They tell themselves that they deserve success for the sacrifice.

    *) The reward for cheating (if not caught) can be very high, and sometimes enough to turn even a generally honest person.

    *) Many sportsmen have short careers, and if they don't make a name for themselves that they can use later, or earn a lot of money in the meantime, they'll be stacking shelves at Tescos.

    *) Some sports (cycling is one) have cheating so endemic that the pressure to cheat must be immense - the only way you can compete with the other cheats is to cheat yourself.

    And there are probably many more.
    For most of them it is down to greed, they are after money.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Has mural-gate been covered on the BBC News Channel/BBC One? I’ve seen a lot of discussed on twitter, and even on the BBC News website, but it didn’t seem to feature at all on the TV news yesterday, with attention being given to Owen Smith’s sacking instead.

    It was raised this morning on Marr and Watson gave a non-apology.
    Ah okay. No surprises there re Watson non apology as he’s been defending all things Corbyn for sometime now. It is a bit concerning though that it doesn’t (to my knowledge anyway) seem to have featured very much on the BBC News at 6 or 10. Anti-semitism in the country’s main opposition party should be one of, if not the biggest story of the day and I wonder just how many actually know about it if it’s not getting enough coverage.
    Now headlining bbc news web page.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582
    edited March 2018
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710

    Well, at least this means any Corbyn loyalists seeking to dismiss claims of there being any anti-semitism in the party can be dismissed even quicker than before, now that Corbyn has actually apologised for its existence.

    I am actually surprised that this latest mess has convinced his spinners to convince him to issue such a statement, given how many opportunities there would have been to be so unequivocal.

    Given there were only rumblings before, presumably this should be enough to quell most of the MPs.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    kle4 said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710

    Well, at least this means any Corbyn loyalists seeking to dismiss claims of there being any anti-semitism in the party can be dismissed even quicker than before, now that Corbyn has actually apologised for its existence.

    I am actually surprised that this latest mess has convinced his spinners to convince him to issue such a statement, given how many opportunities there would have been to be so unequivocal.

    Well Sqwawkbox is accusing May of "VILE RACIST TROPE AGAINST LABOUR’S JEWISH MEMBERS"....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582

    kle4 said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710

    Well, at least this means any Corbyn loyalists seeking to dismiss claims of there being any anti-semitism in the party can be dismissed even quicker than before, now that Corbyn has actually apologised for its existence.

    I am actually surprised that this latest mess has convinced his spinners to convince him to issue such a statement, given how many opportunities there would have been to be so unequivocal.

    Well Sqwawkbox is accusing May of "VILE RACIST TROPE AGAINST LABOUR’S JEWISH MEMBERS"....
    Are they like the Canary?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710

    Well, at least this means any Corbyn loyalists seeking to dismiss claims of there being any anti-semitism in the party can be dismissed even quicker than before, now that Corbyn has actually apologised for its existence.

    I am actually surprised that this latest mess has convinced his spinners to convince him to issue such a statement, given how many opportunities there would have been to be so unequivocal.

    Well Sqwawkbox is accusing May of "VILE RACIST TROPE AGAINST LABOUR’S JEWISH MEMBERS"....
    Are they like the Canary?
    Yes, but even more Fake News. BJO gets all his links from there.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Has mural-gate been covered on the BBC News Channel/BBC One? I’ve seen a lot of discussed on twitter, and even on the BBC News website, but it didn’t seem to feature at all on the TV news yesterday, with attention being given to Owen Smith’s sacking instead.

    It was raised this morning on Marr and Watson gave a non-apology.
    Ah okay. No surprises there re Watson non apology as he’s been defending all things Corbyn for sometime now. It is a bit concerning though that it doesn’t (to my knowledge anyway) seem to have featured very much on the BBC News at 6 or 10. Anti-semitism in the country’s main opposition party should be one of, if not the biggest story of the day and I wonder just how many actually know about it if it’s not getting enough coverage.
    Now headlining bbc news web page.
    In a previous post I did say that I’d seen it reported on the BBC News website. My main concern was its coverage on TV as many will get their news there.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    This seems odd as I thought Chakrabarti had more or less concluded that Labour did not have an anti-semitisim problem! Corbyn's made the statement because this issue is spinning out of control.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    kle4 said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710

    Well, at least this means any Corbyn loyalists seeking to dismiss claims of there being any anti-semitism in the party can be dismissed even quicker than before, now that Corbyn has actually apologised for its existence.

    I am actually surprised that this latest mess has convinced his spinners to convince him to issue such a statement, given how many opportunities there would have been to be so unequivocal.

    Given there were only rumblings before, presumably this should be enough to quell most of the MPs.

    It is not a proper apology. It is a classic non-apology.

    He doesn't admit that he has done anything wrong.

    It won't be enough
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,954

    This seems odd as I thought Chakrabarti had more or less concluded that Labour did not have an anti-semitisim problem! Corbyn's made the statement because this issue is spinning out of control.

    That's Baroness Chakrabarti to you!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582

    kle4 said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710

    Well, at least this means any Corbyn loyalists seeking to dismiss claims of there being any anti-semitism in the party can be dismissed even quicker than before, now that Corbyn has actually apologised for its existence.

    I am actually surprised that this latest mess has convinced his spinners to convince him to issue such a statement, given how many opportunities there would have been to be so unequivocal.

    Given there were only rumblings before, presumably this should be enough to quell most of the MPs.

    It is not a proper apology. It is a classic non-apology.

    He doesn't admit that he has done anything wrong.

    It won't be enough
    There are non-apologies and then there are non-apologies. Nobody seems to want to tear Labour apart over this or any other issue, so is his apparent shift enough. Not for external critics, and certainly not all internal ones, but the Chakrabarti report, and his comments up to now on other incidents kept people in line until now after all.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    RobD said:

    This seems odd as I thought Chakrabarti had more or less concluded that Labour did not have an anti-semitisim problem! Corbyn's made the statement because this issue is spinning out of control.

    That's Baroness Chakrabarti to you!
    Oops, how dreadfully disrespectful of me.
  • Corbyn seems to have inherited Blair's teflon qualities. You can guarantee that if tomorrow's protest had been directed at the government the TV cameras would already be in place and the build-up would have started.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sandpit said:

    Very interesting threader, thanks Alastair.

    I'm of the view that we're not yet at a tip-over point where more jobs are lost to new tech than are gained from applications of that new tech. In fact, IMV it'll take either a catastrophe - e.g. a solar storm or EMP event - or true AI for it to happen. And I'm a good deal more bearish than many on here about the future prospects of AI.

    As an aside, after the war my dad was taught to plough both with horses and with a tractor. He is the last generation for which horse-ploughing would have been seen as a 'useful' skill. He also remembers steam-ploughs - a steam engine at each end of a field, with a cable between the two pulling the plough, although that was a dying craft even when he was a child.

    The rate of change has been massive. How will I explain to my three-year old that TV's used to be big boxes with tiny screens, and the state-of-the-art was black and white?

    I am much more in the camp that ML / AI will assist in jobs rather than widespread eradication e.g. more and more ML will process medical scans / test results and present information to consultants.
    Yeah, I'm with you on that. It's more people like SeanT who witter on about all lorry drivers being out of work in ten years (as it must have been a couple of years ago, he's got eight years left).

    One prospect that intrigues me is 3D printing. I'm incredibly bullish (*) on it, and good multi-material 3D printing that is cheap enough, put together with good designs, could be truly transformative.

    (*) No, that's not bullsh*t.
    The 3D printed house - done in 24 hours for $4,000
    https://www.fastcompany.com/40538464/this-house-can-be-3d-printed-for-4000

    Revolutionary if they can scale it.
    It's absolute shit.

    The shell often house is the cheapest part. The land it sits on, the fitting out of electricity, water, sewage etc. God forbid it's in an area that needs HVAC.

    It's a garbage project and I don't know why it is getting press.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    edited March 2018
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710

    Well, at least this means any Corbyn loyalists seeking to dismiss claims of there being any anti-semitism in the party can be dismissed even quicker than before, now that Corbyn has actually apologised for its existence.

    I am actually surprised that this latest mess has convinced his spinners to convince him to issue such a statement, given how many opportunities there would have been to be so unequivocal.

    Given there were only rumblings before, presumably this should be enough to quell most of the MPs.

    It is not a proper apology. It is a classic non-apology.

    He doesn't admit that he has done anything wrong.

    It won't be enough
    There are non-apologies and then there are non-apologies. Nobody seems to want to tear Labour apart over this or any other issue, so is his apparent shift enough. Not for external critics, and certainly not all internal ones, but the Chakrabarti report, and his comments up to now on other incidents kept people in line until now after all.
    I think it would need a lot more that a statement to satisfy. It needed him to have taken action in the past - which is what he has failed to do.

    If he had come out and kicked Ken from the party once and for all and condemned him in absolute terms - that would have been a symbolic act that would have shown a willingness to act. But an empty statement with no personal apology is not enough.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710

    Well, at least this means any Corbyn loyalists seeking to dismiss claims of there being any anti-semitism in the party can be dismissed even quicker than before, now that Corbyn has actually apologised for its existence.

    I am actually surprised that this latest mess has convinced his spinners to convince him to issue such a statement, given how many opportunities there would have been to be so unequivocal.

    Given there were only rumblings before, presumably this should be enough to quell most of the MPs.

    It is not a proper apology. It is a classic non-apology.

    He doesn't admit that he has done anything wrong.

    It won't be enough
    There are non-apologies and then there are non-apologies. Nobody seems to want to tear Labour apart over this or any other issue, so is his apparent shift enough. Not for external critics, and certainly not all internal ones, but the Chakrabarti report, and his comments up to now on other incidents kept people in line until now after all.


    If he had come out and kicked Ken from the party once and for all and condemned him in absolute terms
    An idea with no drawbacks. Let's hope it happens.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Ex minister Dan Poulter is CLEARED of allegations he put his hands up the skirts of female MPs and slams the 'false and scurrilous' claims

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5542067/Ex-minister-Dan-Poulter-CLEARED-sex-harassment-claims.html
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    Corbyn seems to have inherited Blair's teflon qualities. You can guarantee that if tomorrow's protest had been directed at the government Tories the TV cameras would already be in place and the build-up would have started.

    Fixed that for you.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    edited March 2018
    I wonder what the correlation between the juvenile 'FBPE' slogans on twitter and people who actually did anything during the referendum is...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,979
    Mortimer said:

    I wonder what the correlation between the juvenile 'FBPE' slogans on twitter and people who actually did anything during the referendum is...

    Do you have a golden rule about that?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,954
    Mortimer said:

    I wonder what the correlation between the juvenile 'FBPE' slogans on twitter and people who actually did anything during the referendum is...

    What does it stand for?
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    RobD said:

    Mortimer said:

    I wonder what the correlation between the juvenile 'FBPE' slogans on twitter and people who actually did anything during the referendum is...

    What does it stand for?
    Follow Back Pro European.

    It’s a cry for help.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,582
    Scott_P said:
    Always fun to observe the mental shifts of arch tribalists.

    Not so much fun when I have to mentally shift, but swings and roundabouts.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,813

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710

    Well, at least this means any Corbyn loyalists seeking to dismiss claims of there being any anti-semitism in the party can be dismissed even quicker than before, now that Corbyn has actually apologised for its existence.

    I am actually surprised that this latest mess has convinced his spinners to convince him to issue such a statement, given how many opportunities there would have been to be so unequivocal.

    Well Sqwawkbox is accusing May of "VILE RACIST TROPE AGAINST LABOUR’S JEWISH MEMBERS"....
    Are they like the Canary?
    Yes, but even more Fake News. BJO gets all his links from there.
    FU
This discussion has been closed.