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  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited March 2018
    dixiedean said:

    Scott_P said:
    What do these people expect Labour moderates to do, exactly? They already tried to trigger a leadership contest against Corbyn. They even tried to prevent him from running again. They lost on both counts. They got a result in June which cemented Corbyn’s power in Labour. Outside of the PLP Corbyn controls the Labour Party. Even if they were to trigger a split, it’s likely they’d be the biggest losers - moderate left of centre parties have been getting beaten throughout Europe these past couple of years and the Labour brand is a draw for many voters. Chris Leslie, John Woodcock and even Yvette Cooper are not Shirley Williams or Joy Jenkins. The Labour moderates, as that FT article makes clear, have already lost.

    Now looking back, they really needed to provide a compelling alternative to Corbynism, as opposed to simply arguing ‘Corbynism is bad.’ Both they and the Tories made the same mistake, and it’s only caused both groups problems.
    Indeed. There is no great groundswell of voter demand for a "business as usual, but slightly nicer about it" party.
    Exactly. I know it’s what many Tories and centrists on twitter seem to want, but a leftism that makes them feel happy is not what I sense many members or voters particularly want. Rather than ‘consensus’ there is more demand for clear differences between the two main parties. Ironically even when Labour were more moderate - as they were under Ed Miliband, because Labour weren’t exactly Tory lite many Labour moderates were still unhappy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    kle4 said:


    Particularly for those who would say Corbyn ie neither anti-semitic nor succours those who are, the ending is critical - 'Rightly or wrongly, those who push this offensive material regard Jeremy Corbyn as their figurehead....[he] is the only person with the standing to demand that all of this stops'

    Just going to sign off with the above quote from the Board of Deputies letter. Even assuming the best of Corbyn, even, for the sake or argument, assuming the need to tackle any such views elsewhere, that right there strikes me as such a key point, that Corbyn can do something about this, fundamentally, because of the esteem he is held in.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    What do these people expect Labour moderates to do, exactly? They already tried to trigger a leadership contest against Corbyn. They even tried to prevent him from running again. They lost on both counts. They got a result in June which cemented Corbyn’s power in Labour. Outside of the PLP Corbyn controls the Labour Party. Even if they were to trigger a split, it’s likely they’d be the biggest losers - moderate left of centre parties have been getting beaten throughout Europe these past couple of years and the Labour brand is a draw for many voters. Chris Leslie, John Woodcock and even Yvette Cooper are not Shirley Williams or Joy Jenkins. The Labour moderates, as that FT article makes clear, have already lost.

    Now looking back, they really needed to provide a compelling alternative to Corbynism, as opposed to simply arguing ‘Corbynism is bad.’ Both they and the Tories made the same mistake, and it’s only caused both groups problems.
    You are quite right, and everyone knows Corbyn would win abother leadership content, so I presume what people want when they say 'disassociate yourself from his leadership' they must mean either resign the whip, which seems unlikely to be the wish, or to at the least publicly state something like 'I will continue to vote in accordance with party policy, to advance labour values for the benefit of everyone in this country which needs them so badly, but I make clear I cannot personally support the idea of Jeremy Corbyn being prime minister'.

    Reasonable? Perhaps not. Credible? Not really. But I presume people want the moderates to do something, or they've forgotten they have already lost.
    I feel like the moderates kind of already made clear that Corbyn as PM is a big no no when they had a vote of no confidence in his leadership. The only thing that I can see Labour moderates doing that would effective in the medium term is finding a way to appeal to the membership. They need to come up with much better campaigns than what Owen Smith, Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham and Liz Kendall offered in 2016 and 2015.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    kle4 said:

    Interesting, essentially calling the Board of Deputies Tory stooges. I would be curious if they are right about the following:

    We would hope that any organisation claiming to represent Jews would be calling them to account when, to cite two examples in the last two months, the Prime Minister‘s ex Chief of Staff uses a national newspaper to dredge up an antisemitic conspiracy theory, and Havering Conservative party issues a dogwhistle leaflet hoping to mobilise racism in their local election campaign. The Board of Deputies has been silent on both.

    All the same, it is running into a problem in that it essentially says this is all manufactured nonsense ('The Board of Deputies and those supporting them must be aware that this is an attempt to influence local elections and has nothing to do with the real and necessary task of challenging racism and anti-semitism at all levels of political life')...but Corbyn has said that there is a problem to be addressed.

    So they are in fact not only attacking the Board of Deputies (about whom I know nothing) but are attacking their own leader!

    edit eg the comment under that link

    We are seeing a recurrence of the false anti-semitism campaign in time for the elections. What is needed under the new General Secretary is a robust reaction to this attack, not conceding to it.

    Well, commenter, sorry to say that Mr Corbyn has already conceded to there being an issue, so you're too late.

    Also, bit early for the elections isn't it?
    They see it as essentially a PR problem rather than a real one. Anti-semitism sounds bad. No-one wants to be called anti-semitic so they say they are against it. But what is not done is look at what Corbyn and others actually say and do and decide to no longer say and do those things. Hence the need to attack this as a smear or a political tactic or to point to others' failings in this regard.

    What is not criticised are the underlying views: that Jews are all powerful and sinister and oppressors and evil and exploitative money-loving capitalists and using their victimhood to gain brownie points etc. While those views remain and are shared and are not challenged or resiled from then there will continue to be repeated instances of anti-semitism, no matter how many statements are put out, no matter how many meetings with Jewish groups there are, no matter how many expressions of sympathy at the pain caused are made.

    Corbyn finds it very difficult to engage with this because these views are par for the course in the Left in which he has made his political home these last four decades. He has never before found any problems with such views. Why - bar the PR problem it is causing him - should he start now?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    rpjs said:
    Ew. "Wow, you-- you are special. You remind me of my daughter."
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    Elliot said:

    If the EU freezes us out of Galileo, we should surely freeze them out of all our intelligence provision.

    We're not being "frozen out". We voted to Leave it.
    If China, Israel, the Ukraine, and Morocco can be members, I am not sure why the UK can't.
    I'm sure we can. However we voted to Leave it. Therefore we need to negotiate our re-admission. We can't merely pretend we just carry on as before.
    Agreed, but given the UK has contributed significantly into the current program and is actively involved in the construction of additional satellites, I can't imagine why they'd not welcome the UK's continued involvement. Apart from a punishment for leaving, of course.
    But it isn't a "punishment", That is loaded language. We voluntarily left. Therefore we need to ask to be re-admitted. And negotiate the terms.
    Yeah, and I can't see a reason for them to refuse the UK's continued involvement.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited March 2018

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    What do these people expect Labour moderates to do, exactly? They already tried to trigger a leadership contest against Corbyn. They even tried to prevent him from running again. They lost on both counts. They got a result in June which cemented Corbyn’s power in Labour. Outside of the PLP Corbyn controls the Labour Party. Even if they were to trigger a split, it’s likely they’d be the biggest losers - moderate left of centre parties have been getting beaten throughout Europe these past couple of years and the Labour brand is a draw for many voters. Chris Leslie, John Woodcock and even Yvette Cooper are not Shirley Williams or Joy Jenkins. The Labour moderates, as that FT article makes clear, have already lost.

    Now looking back, they really needed to provide a compelling alternative to Corbynism, as opposed to simply arguing ‘Corbynism is bad.’ Both they and the Tories made the same mistake, and it’s only caused both groups problems.
    You are quite right, and everyone knows Corbyn would win abother leadership content, so I presume what people want when they say 'disassociate yourself from his leadership' they must mean either resign the whip, which seems unlikely to be the wish, or to at the least publicly state something like 'I will continue to vote in accordance with party policy, to advance labour values for the benefit of everyone in this country which needs them so badly, but I make clear I cannot personally support the idea of Jeremy Corbyn being prime minister'.

    Reasonable? Perhaps not. Credible? Not really. But I presume people want the moderates to do something, or they've forgotten they have already lost.
    I feel like the moderates kind of already made clear that Corbyn as PM is a big no no when they had a vote of no confidence in his leadership.
    Much has changed since then and they have mostly been marching in lockstep with him since the GE. I think in the absence of the membership deserting Corbyn, the moderates' supporters would like them to confirm they still have no confidence in him personally, even if policy wise they are mostly happy, and they recognise there's no point in having a no confidence vote again.

    Yes, they need to find a way to get the membership on side again if there is to be a non-Corbynite in charge ever again, but clearly they cannot think of anything like that which would work.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:


    Particularly for those who would say Corbyn ie neither anti-semitic nor succours those who are, the ending is critical - 'Rightly or wrongly, those who push this offensive material regard Jeremy Corbyn as their figurehead....[he] is the only person with the standing to demand that all of this stops'

    Just going to sign off with the above quote from the Board of Deputies letter. Even assuming the best of Corbyn, even, for the sake or argument, assuming the need to tackle any such views elsewhere, that right there strikes me as such a key point, that Corbyn can do something about this, fundamentally, because of the esteem he is held in.
    Of course he can do something about it. But does he actually want to? Does he actually think any of this stuff is wrong? Or does he only think it wrong when someone tells him it is anti-semitic and therefore is seen as wrong?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_P said:
    What do these people expect Labour moderates to do, exactly? They already tried to trigger a leadership contest against Corbyn. They even tried to prevent him from running again. They lost on both counts. They got a result in June which cemented Corbyn’s power in Labour. Outside of the PLP Corbyn controls the Labour Party. Even if they were to trigger a split, it’s likely they’d be the biggest losers - moderate left of centre parties have been getting beaten throughout Europe these past couple of years and the Labour brand is a draw for many voters. Chris Leslie, John Woodcock and even Yvette Cooper are not Shirley Williams or Joy Jenkins. The Labour moderates, as that FT article makes clear, have already lost.

    Now looking back, they really needed to provide a compelling alternative to Corbynism, as opposed to simply arguing ‘Corbynism is bad.’ Both they and the Tories made the same mistake, and it’s only caused both groups problems.
    Indeed. There is no great groundswell of voter demand for a "business as usual, but slightly nicer about it" party.
    Exactly. I know it’s what many Tories and centrists on twitter seem to want, but a leftism that makes them feel happy is not what I sense many members or voters particularly want. Rather than ‘consensus’ there is more demand for clear differences between the two main parties. Ironically even when Labour were more moderate - as they were under Ed Miliband, because Labour weren’t exactly Tory lite many Labour moderates were still unhappy.
    It is a quandary. And one I find myself in too tbh. I don't like/rate Corbyn. I don't like/rate those who cheered on Iraq/PFI, either.
    Brexit was a vote for a radical break with the status quo. Now we are being asked to support a Brexit which means everything stays the same apart from passport colour.
    Politics isn't easy right now.
    At least JC/offers a plan. Even if it is one Baldrick would appreciate.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited March 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:


    Particularly for those who would say Corbyn ie neither anti-semitic nor succours those who are, the ending is critical - 'Rightly or wrongly, those who push this offensive material regard Jeremy Corbyn as their figurehead....[he] is the only person with the standing to demand that all of this stops'

    Just going to sign off with the above quote from the Board of Deputies letter. Even assuming the best of Corbyn, even, for the sake or argument, assuming the need to tackle any such views elsewhere, that right there strikes me as such a key point, that Corbyn can do something about this, fundamentally, because of the esteem he is held in.
    Of course he can do something about it. But does he actually want to? Does he actually think any of this stuff is wrong? Or does he only think it wrong when someone tells him it is anti-semitic and therefore is seen as wrong?
    I did say 'assuming the best of Corbyn'. Some out there will assume the best...but that does not absolve him now he has admitted the party has an issue to deal with, as it means he has to follow up that talk with some walk (ignoring for a moment that things could have been done earlier). Assuming something less than the best, and your alternatives become very pertinent questions.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2018
    rpjs said:

    rpjs said:
    Ew. "Wow, you-- you are special. You remind me of my daughter."
    A quick scan through that and maybe I am just tired but I don't really see anything that exciting beyond what we already knew was being claimed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Given the media will wank themselves silly over the Stormy Daniels interview tomorrow, I doubt Jezza / Antisemitism stuff will get a look in.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_P said:
    What do these people expect Labour moderates to do, exactly? They already tried to trigger a leadership contest against Corbyn. They even tried to prevent him from running again. They lost on both counts. They got a result in June which cemented Corbyn’s power in Labour. Outside of the PLP Corbyn controls the Labour Party. Even if they were to trigger a split, it’s likely they’d be the biggest losers - moderate left of centre parties have been getting beaten throughout Europe these past couple of years and the Labour brand is a draw for many voters. Chris Leslie, John Woodcock and even Yvette Cooper are not Shirley Williams or Joy Jenkins. The Labour moderates, as that FT article makes clear, have already lost.

    Now looking back, they really needed to provide a compelling alternative to Corbynism, as opposed to simply arguing ‘Corbynism is bad.’ Both they and the Tories made the same mistake, and it’s only caused both groups problems.
    Indeed. There is no great groundswell of voter demand for a "business as usual, but slightly nicer about it" party.
    Exactly. I know it’s what many Tories and centrists on twitter seem to want, but a leftism that makes them feel happy is not what I sense many members or voters particularly want. Rather than ‘consensus’ there is more demand for clear differences between the two main parties. Ironically even when Labour were more moderate - as they were under Ed Miliband, because Labour weren’t exactly Tory lite many Labour moderates were still unhappy.
    It is a quandary. And one I find myself in too tbh. I don't like/rate Corbyn. I don't like/rate those who cheered on Iraq/PFI, either.
    Brexit was a vote for a radical break with the status quo. Now we are being asked to support a Brexit which means everything stays the same apart from passport colour.
    Politics isn't easy right now.
    At least JC/offers a plan. Even if it is one Baldrick would appreciate.
    I feel the same re Corbyn and the moderates - I don’t like either. I’m not very hopeful about the direction the country is going in. I feel like the political class have no idea how to solve the problems this country faces.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Scott_P said:
    What do these people expect Labour moderates to do, exactly? They already tried to trigger a leadership contest against Corbyn. They even tried to prevent him from running again. They lost on both counts. They got a result in June which cemented Corbyn’s power in Labour. Outside of the PLP Corbyn controls the Labour Party. Even if they were to trigger a split, it’s likely they’d be the biggest losers - moderate left of centre parties have been getting beaten throughout Europe these past couple of years and the Labour brand is a draw for many voters. Chris Leslie, John Woodcock and even Yvette Cooper are not Shirley Williams or Joy Jenkins. The Labour moderates, as that FT article makes clear, have already lost.

    Now looking back, they really needed to provide a compelling alternative to Corbynism, as opposed to simply arguing ‘Corbynism is bad.’ Both they and the Tories made the same mistake, and it’s only caused both groups problems.
    Indeed. There is no great groundswell of voter demand for a "business as usual, but slightly nicer about it" party.
    Exactly. I know it’s what many Tories and centrists on twitter seem to want, but a leftism that makes them feel happy is not what I sense many members or voters particularly want. Rather than ‘consensus’ there is more demand for clear differences between the two main parties. Ironically even when Labour were more moderate - as they were under Ed Miliband, because Labour weren’t exactly Tory lite many Labour moderates were still unhappy.
    It is a quandary. And one I find myself in too tbh. I don't like/rate Corbyn. I don't like/rate those who cheered on Iraq/PFI, either.
    Brexit was a vote for a radical break with the status quo. Now we are being asked to support a Brexit which means everything stays the same apart from passport colour.
    Politics isn't easy right now.
    At least JC/offers a plan. Even if it is one Baldrick would appreciate.
    I feel the same re Corbyn and the moderates - I don’t like either. I’m not very hopeful about the direction the country is going in. I feel like the political class have no idea how to solve the problems this country faces.
    Me neither. And with that depressing conclusion, I wish you good night.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    'I've seen something amazing, but I cannot tell you anything about it'. Thanks for the update
    Nauseatingly, I think we can guess at what the "frank" bit might involve.
    is she a singer, perhaps she spoke into a microphone?

    Oh, is that my coat?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    kle4 said:

    Corbyn finally reacts. How many hours must McD have spent trying to persuade him to admit there is a problem?

    But he is refusing to meet his MPs tomorrow some of whom are joining the demonstration on behalf of the Jewish community
    They'll be added to the deselection list by the Cult.
    Labour would be better off with the Cure than the Cult.
    I very rarely find myself on your side of the fence; this is one of those rare occasions
    :lol:

    But, seriously, in case anyone has missed this. It is blistering. Indeed, should be possibly be career finishing:

    https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/978014010032508929
    Particularly for those who would say Corbyn ie neither anti-semitic nor succours those who are, the ending is critical - 'Rightly or wrongly, those who push this offensive material regard Jeremy Corbyn as their figurehead....[he] is the only person with the standing to demand that all of this stops'

    Hopefully it will (and in any other places it is occurring). As seen in the link from last september the last time this row erupted in a big way, some have prevented any action by saying the claims themselves are not true, and that is part of anti-corbyn smears and the like. With Corbyn saying there is a problem (of some kind), that line should no longer fly, inasmuch as it ever did.
    We debated this the other day - some posters on here I hope are feeling a sense of shame
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Nothing is going to change inside the Labour party. I am pleased, though, that the far-left’s embrace of anti-Semites and Jew-baiters is now getting a much wider airing. And I’m pleased that it’s discomfiting Corbyn and his mates. It’s the least they deserve. The tragedy, of course, is that all this will just cement the Tories in power for years to come. But that’s what putting the far left in control always does. They are the best friends the Tories have.

    Small comfort Southam - but you have your dignity intact - certain other posters on here are more happy to turn a blind eye to what is going on.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2018
    Strong words from the Holocaust Educational Trust’s Karen Pollock on Westminster Hour, who rightly pointed out that Corbyn apologised only for anti-Semitism in “pockets” of the Labour Party, not for his own support for anti-Semites.

    5...4..3..2..1...Jezza is a victim card being played. He is just an old man, he signed various EDMs yadda yadda yadda.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Elliot said:

    Here they are, the quintessential Cult member, expressing their views on Chukka and protests at Corbyn:

    https://twitter.com/fezzthoughts/status/978028902357635072

    Will Britain really put this man in Downing Street? I fear it might...

    He is the British Trump.
    And Labour MPs complicit in not speaking out are the British Republicans.
    :+1:

    Although, looking at twitter tonight, there is a hell of a lot of 'stop just tweeting, and actually do something' directed at moderate Labour.

    Tipping point?

    Almost certainly not.
    Most of them give every impression of being gutless

    How the F can any decent person keep quiet about this?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    Given the media will wank themselves silly over the Stormy Daniels interview tomorrow, I doubt Jezza / Antisemitism stuff will get a look in.

    Oh it will. The response of the Jewish community groups has ensured this has legs.

    When will people learn that we can now easily spot non apologies?. Not once has Corbyn taken any personal responsibility for any of this. People have spotted this and won't let it go.

    The US sex non-scandal is neither here nor there. Everyone knew what Trump was like and still voted for him.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Given the media will wank themselves silly over the Stormy Daniels interview tomorrow, I doubt Jezza / Antisemitism stuff will get a look in.

    The US sex non-scandal is neither here nor there. Everyone knew what Trump was like and still voted for him.
    The “sex” isn’t the scandal - it’s the payment of the hush money days before the polls. Ms Daniels comes across as credible.....
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    Given the media will wank themselves silly over the Stormy Daniels interview tomorrow, I doubt Jezza / Antisemitism stuff will get a look in.

    The US sex non-scandal is neither here nor there. Everyone knew what Trump was like and still voted for him.
    The “sex” isn’t the scandal - it’s the payment of the hush money days before the polls. Ms Daniels comes across as credible.....
    I still don't think it will alter perceptions of Trump.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    New thread
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    viewcode said:

    One prospect that intrigues me is 3D printing.

    Knock yourself out. A 2018 review of 13 3d printers. Includes prices.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IE6hSQu4lI

    Thanks. I've robustly avoided buying one as it would be too much of a time sink. That, and the fact that I'm cr@p at design.

    But there will be a point where capability and price will meet to make the tech truly transformative. Want a new toy for a children's party. Don't go to Toys R Us (*) or Amazon, but just download the designs and print one.

    We're not there yet, and won't be for many years, but we will. But even this may end up increasing the number of jobs rather than decreasing it.

    (*) Ooops
    Synthetic biology is gone to be an incredible breakthrough
    It's an area I know nothing about. Could you recommend a primer?
    It’s a catch all term so no primer that I know of. This is ok as a start

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_biology
    A belated thanks. More reading. :)
This discussion has been closed.