I have had many discussions over the years about antisemitism both with my wife (a socialist) and Jewish colleagues. It is easy to conflate antisemitism with legitimate criticism of the Israeli government and policies. The majority of my Jewish colleagues had problems with Israeli government policies and could understand why there were a lot of negative press. This is different from antisemitism.
One of the more extended discussion I had was in a restaurant in Antwerp where I tried to understand the complex beliefs around dietary permissions. I still find that difficult to understand.
I can accept these religious beliefs however. This doesn't stop me disliking the practice of unstunned killing of animals. This is not antisemitism. I also feel anger that unstunned meat can enter the wider UK food chain unlabelled. This is also not antisemitism.
Although my wife and I disagree about the majority of political topics, we can both agree that the current position of the Israeli government on the situation in the Middle East is wrong and that there has been successful lobbying of the US political agenda towards Israel over the years.
I think a clearer understanding of the differences between antisemitism and criticism of Israeli policies is needed for the wider population before it is possible to easily call out true antisemitism.
This is NOT a defence of Corbyn.
I don't know why it should be difficult to criticise Israeli policies without the use of antisemitic tropes, people do it every day.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
I agree it is largely an anti Israeli government and anti US government, especially Trump government, position Corbyn has
Your article in your link to the Corbyn-bashing is embarrassingly unscientific.
Basically, it states that some of the right wing newspaper coverage isn't favourable. Duh! You can apply it to the Labour party in general. What next? The Pope has a tendency to shit in the woods and bears have a bias towards religion?
First of all, you'd need to survey all the media outlets, estimate their reach and effectiveness, and explain and defend your methods of estimating bias. All this link does is present selected evidence on what they perceive as bias. If I were refereeing this paper, I'd throw it in the nearest waste bin.
Like beauty, bias is in the eye of the beholder and the bias is writ large in your link.
The BBC has a bias towards metropolitan liberals but tries not to make it obvious. Most of the media is middle-class and prefers what they see as 'couth' individuals. Trump definitely fails on this alone. Corbyn can verge towards uncouthness at times. This isn't a political judgement, it's a social one - even though socially, he's one of their own.
The media contain a mixture of biases.
Corbyn has his own consistent biases. He dislikes the holders of power - unless they conform to his own brand of politics. Hence the USA is always wrong, the Conservatives eat babies, the UK is a capitalist running dog to the fascist hyenas. Israel fails on many counts for him.
The communist and former communist countries are always right, unless they break one of his commandments.
This bias isn't just politics, it's life, and it affects everyone. Most people instinctively know this. There isn't a true account from any one source, so the more there are, the better.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
People who are sympathetic about the horrible situation of many Palestinians (and rightly so) also need to consider the other side of that equation: the horrible situation the Jewish people will be in if the Palestinians take control. Neither side's consciences are clear on this; there is , and has been, evil on both sides.
Would you prefer to be a Palestinian living in the Jewish state, or a Jew living in a Palestinian one? (Though even such terminology has become fraught).
Conservatives of a certain disposition have traditionally disliked anyone not W, AS, P or C. For such Cons, such folk (gay, black, jew, Romanian) are outsiders and therefore suspect. For these people also, the Jews' biggest crime is the killing of JC - their original sin. However, a large number of such Conservatives realise that times move on, and whether it's the killing of Christ or Mafeking, we now live in a different era so they are increasingly less disinclination. The "more Estonians than Etonians" comment was said with both resignation, acceptance and some degree of affection.
Analogous Labour types, meanwhile, have been betrayed by the Jews. Formerly plucky victims who manifestly needed saving, the Jews then turned into criminals of the highest order who don't confine their imperial ambitions to the Middle East, but want to oppress the poor all over the world, most often utilising their privileged positions in banking and finance, politics, and media. For these Labour types, there is no worse crime than such a class betrayal (cf. working class types who make good and thereby become part of the capitalist running dog class). And there really has been no forgiveness or acceptance because there is always "look at Israel" to rally the troops.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Do you know if there's any pre-2016 polling on English attitudes to the Union with NI? Particularly ones that breakdown support to those who have an English rather than British identity? I'm interested to try and find out if this is a side effect of Brexit or if Brexit and apathy to the NI union come from the same place.
(I tried googling but all the 'union'-related polling appears to be EU-ish).
I think BES did some, I can’t find any on their website, but I’ve emailed someone at BES to find out.
Analogous Labour types, meanwhile, have been betrayed by the Jews. Formerly plucky victims who manifestly needed saving, the Jews then turned into criminals of the highest order who don't confine their imperial ambitions to the Middle East, but want to oppress the poor all over the world, most often utilising their privileged positions in banking and finance, politics, and media.
What the actual f***?
That's the most offensive thing I've ever read here.
That paper's interesting thanks, and IMV worthy of a threader. I've just had a quick skim, but will say that it's heavily dependent on perspective: is a particular article antagonistic or realistic? I don't know anything about the CA methodology to remark on validity.
In addition, it would be good to see a similar study, performed in a similar manner, against (say) Ed Miliband in 2014, Cameron in 2014, and May in late 2017. This may tell us if such a factor is unique against Labour.
There's also the question of whether the media were correct to be antagonistic towards Corbyn. Certainly, there is good reason to be, as recent events have shown.
Perhaps the 'biased' media are actually representing Corbyn as he actually is?
Yeah comparative studies would be useful, I'd imagine May, at least until we got a bit into the election had very good press, almost the opposite of Corbyn.
Though in fairness there would be less of a difference if we compared say Miliband to Corbyn. Although I think almost everyone would agree the papers have been a bit stronger in their opinions on the latter.
Last part is the million dollar question, I would suggest the people who aren't heavily interested in politics, like us lot on here, didn't seem to believe so if the 40% is anything to go by. Even the Guardian didn't back Corbyn until close to the election after spending the previous two years being far more against him than for him. The public didn't seem to agree with this press assessment when they saw him during the campaign.
The impression built solely by the media was shattered when the election rules forced more balanced coverage and he was able to get his message across. Whilst not conclusive proof it certainly provides an indication as far as I am concerned that the media are representing their version of Corbyn.
You lie down with dogs, you pick up fleas. Jeremy Corbyn is not so much anti-racist as pro-causes. When the two conflict, fastidiousness about anti-racism goes out the window. No one with a serious commitment to anti-racism would have looked at that mural and thought anything other than UGH. As that unlikely beacon of cultural tolerance Lutfur Rahman did.
Jeremy Corbyn’s half-apology yesterday would have been quite enough to make the subject go away on Friday. As it is, he’s behind the curve. He’s going to have to do more.
He’s in a strong enough position in the party that some ritual self-criticism is in order. I’m sure John McDonnell with his love of Maoist China would approve.
Conservatives of a certain disposition have traditionally disliked anyone not W, AS, P or C. For such Cons, such folk (gay, black, jew, Romanian) are outsiders and therefore suspect. For these people also, the Jews' biggest crime is the killing of JC - their original sin. However, a large number of such Conservatives realise that times move on, and whether it's the killing of Christ or Mafeking, we now live in a different era so they are increasingly less disinclination. The "more Estonians than Etonians" comment was said with both resignation, acceptance and some degree of affection.
Analogous Labour types, meanwhile, have been betrayed by the Jews. Formerly plucky victims who manifestly needed saving, the Jews then turned into criminals of the highest order who don't confine their imperial ambitions to the Middle East, but want to oppress the poor all over the world, most often utilising their privileged positions in banking and finance, politics, and media. For these Labour types, there is no worse crime than such a class betrayal (cf. working class types who make good and thereby become part of the capitalist running dog class). And there really has been no forgiveness or acceptance because there is always "look at Israel" to rally the troops.
I think you've said all that needs to be said. Why don't they interview you on radio 5 instead of the bewillderingly ignorant John Mann.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Analogous Labour types, meanwhile, have been betrayed by the Jews. Formerly plucky victims who manifestly needed saving, the Jews then turned into criminals of the highest order who don't confine their imperial ambitions to the Middle East, but want to oppress the poor all over the world, most often utilising their privileged positions in banking and finance, politics, and media.
What the actual f***?
That's the most offensive thing I've ever read here.
It's a competitive field so that's put a spring in my step.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
I think that’s fair. His “causes” beliefs blinds him to a racism he would be quick enough to call out if it wasn’t the Jews, or involved causes he believes passionately in.
Has Corbyn ennobled anyone other than Baroness Chakrabarti?
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Except he's admitted it's obvious , he just didn't look at it properly. Obvious means even at first glance I would think you should notice.
Do you know if there's any pre-2016 polling on English attitudes to the Union with NI? Particularly ones that breakdown support to those who have an English rather than British identity? I'm interested to try and find out if this is a side effect of Brexit or if Brexit and apathy to the NI union come from the same place.
(I tried googling but all the 'union'-related polling appears to be EU-ish).
I think BES did some, I can’t find any on their website, but I’ve emailed someone at BES to find out.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
People who are sympathetic about the horrible situation of many Palestinians (and rightly so) also need to consider the other side of that equation: the horrible situation the Jewish people will be in if the Palestinians take control. Neither side's consciences are clear on this; there is , and has been, evil on both sides.
Would you prefer to be a Palestinian living in the Jewish state, or a Jew living in a Palestinian one? (Though even such terminology has become fraught).
Indeed, Israel is the safest place in the Middle East to be Jewish, but also the safest place to be Christian, Bahai, Druze, Athiest or even the wrong type of Muslim. The behaviour of the Israelis in the occupied territories is appalling, but the behaviour of the Palestinian organisations equally bad.
The particular incident of the offensive anti-semitic mural was not relating to Israel though, it was an older type of anti-semitism more aligned to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I think there are pockets of Anti-semitism in the far left, though there have also been incidents in other parties such as my own LDs. I dont think any party is systematically anti-semitic though, and both parties have elected representatives, and even leaders of Jewish extraction in recent times.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
I agree it is largely an anti Israeli government and anti US government, especially Trump government, position Corbyn has
And it means he has spent 40 years sharing platforms with anti-Semites and calling Jewbaiters his friends without once having condemned them or even challenged their views. This failure has enabled them and allowed them to gain ground within the Labour party. That is the problem.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Conservatives of a certain disposition have traditionally disliked anyone not W, AS, P or C. For such Cons, such folk (gay, black, jew, Romanian) are outsiders and therefore suspect. For these people also, the Jews' biggest crime is the killing of JC - their original sin. However, a large number of such Conservatives realise that times move on, and whether it's the killing of Christ or Mafeking, we now live in a different era so they are increasingly less disinclination. The "more Estonians than Etonians" comment was said with both resignation, acceptance and some degree of affection.
Analogous Labour types, meanwhile, have been betrayed by the Jews. Formerly plucky victims who manifestly needed saving, the Jews then turned into criminals of the highest order who don't confine their imperial ambitions to the Middle East, but want to oppress the poor all over the world, most often utilising their privileged positions in banking and finance, politics, and media. For these Labour types, there is no worse crime than such a class betrayal (cf. working class types who make good and thereby become part of the capitalist running dog class). And there really has been no forgiveness or acceptance because there is always "look at Israel" to rally the troops.
For a host of reasons, I don't believe killing JC is at the heart of anti Semitism. The Romans dunnit (I know it's not that simple, but "crucified under Pontius Pilate" is what it says in the creed); to the extent it was the Jews, it was Jew on Jew; someone had to do it or the Christian narrative breaks down; etc. I suspect it is just having a large religious outgroup, white like the Christians but with subtly different physical characteristics, in our midst, and the right to lend at interest riled both the indebted, and the well-heeled who would have liked some of the action themselves at a time when investment opportunities were hard to come by (no stock exchange). Jews in other words looked at first glance like us but turned out very much not to be, just as harmless little old cat ladies turned out to be malevolent witches who made the harvest fail, and your thingy go floppy. NB also that the muslims are no slouches at anti-Semitism, and while Jesus was a major prophet to them, they wouldn't feel as strongly about him as Christians apparently do.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
@John Ashmore - @smashmorePH: I understand Jeremy Corbyn's meetings with Jewish community leaders are being arranged but they will not necessarily be today
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
This poll says otherwise.
The poll forced them to chose one or the other, HYFUD is arguing that they would have both - no doubt Tories are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping NI in the UK
Conservatives of a certain disposition have traditionally disliked anyone not W, AS, P or C. For such Cons, such folk (gay, black, jew, Romanian) are outsiders and therefore suspect. For these people also, the Jews' biggest crime is the killing of JC - their original sin. However, a large number of such Conservatives realise that times move on, and whether it's the killing of Christ or Mafeking, we now live in a different era so they are increasingly less disinclination. The "more Estonians than Etonians" comment was said with both resignation, acceptance and some degree of affection.
Analogous Labour types, meanwhile, have been betrayed by the Jews. Formerly plucky victims who manifestly needed saving, the Jews then turned into criminals of the highest order who don't confine their imperial ambitions to the Middle East, but want to oppress the poor all over the world, most often utilising their privileged positions in banking and finance, politics, and media. For these Labour types, there is no worse crime than such a class betrayal (cf. working class types who make good and thereby become part of the capitalist running dog class). And there really has been no forgiveness or acceptance because there is always "look at Israel" to rally the troops.
For a host of reasons, I don't believe killing JC is at the heart of anti Semitism. The Romans dunnit (I know it's not that simple, but "crucified under Pontius Pilate" is what it says in the creed); to the extent it was the Jews, it was Jew on Jew; someone had to do it or the Christian narrative breaks down; etc. I suspect it is just having a large religious outgroup, white like the Christians but with subtly different physical characteristics, in our midst, and the right to lend at interest riled both the indebted, and the well-heeled who would have liked some of the action themselves at a time when investment opportunities were hard to come by (no stock exchange). Jews in other words looked at first glance like us but turned out very much not to be, just as harmless little old cat ladies turned out to be malevolent witches who made the harvest fail, and your thingy go floppy. NB also that the muslims are no slouches at anti-Semitism, and while Jesus was a major prophet to them, they wouldn't feel as strongly about him as Christians apparently do.
Good points all.
Jews, of course, were, before the expulsion, the property of the Kings of England, indicating that they were certainly not equivalent to everyone or anyone else around them and hence as you say were convenient as an "other" group.
Good point also about those Muslims who are anti-semitic. I had tried to relate the debate to our current politics but yes; perhaps in the Middle East it was a battle for primacy between all the Abrahamic religions, made more acute in the 20th century for all the reasons we know.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
This poll says otherwise.
The poll forced them to chose one or the other, HYFUD is arguing that they would have both - no doubt Tories are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping NI in the UK
True Unionists would give up Brexit to preserve the Union in a forced choice question.
Corbyn's problem and Labour's too is that many of their voters like their economic policies to a lesser or greater degree but, especially in the older and more traditional group, have reservations about their social policies. Squaring this circle was usually achieved by emphasising the economics.
The Corbynites are more honest but also more extreme, leading to qualms among their less metropolitan adherents. It's a delicate balancing act and could decide the next GE.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
This poll says otherwise.
The poll forced them to chose one or the other, HYFUD is arguing that they would have both - no doubt Tories are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping NI in the UK
True Unionists would give up Brexit to preserve the Union in a forced choice question.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
This poll says otherwise.
The poll forced them to chose one or the other, HYFUD is arguing that they would have both - no doubt Tories are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping NI in the UK
True Unionists would give up Brexit to preserve the Union in a forced choice question.
That's quite literally a no true Scotsman.
Words which do give a sense of deja vu, I wonder if we've had this debate before.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Conservatives of a certain disposition have traditionally disliked anyone not W, AS, P or C. For such Cons, such folk (gay, black, jew, Romanian) are outsiders and therefore suspect. For these people also, the Jews' biggest crime is the killing of JC - their original sin. However, a large number of such Conservatives realise that times move on, and whether it's the killing of Christ or Mafeking, we now live in a different era so they are increasingly less disinclination. The "more Estonians than Etonians" comment was said with both resignation, acceptance and some degree of affection.
Analogous Labour types, meanwhile, have been betrayed by the Jews. Formerly plucky victims who manifestly needed saving, the Jews then turned into criminals of the highest order who don't confine their imperial ambitions to the Middle East, but want to oppress the poor all over the world, most often utilising their privileged positions in banking and finance, politics, and media. For these Labour types, there is no worse crime than such a class betrayal (cf. working class types who make good and thereby become part of the capitalist running dog class). And there really has been no forgiveness or acceptance because there is always "look at Israel" to rally the troops.
For a host of reasons, I don't believe killing JC is at the heart of anti Semitism. The Romans dunnit (I know it's not that simple, but "crucified under Pontius Pilate" is what it says in the creed); to the extent it was the Jews, it was Jew on Jew; someone had to do it or the Christian narrative breaks down; etc. I suspect it is just having a large religious outgroup, white like the Christians but with subtly different physical characteristics, in our midst, and the right to lend at interest riled both the indebted, and the well-heeled who would have liked some of the action themselves at a time when investment opportunities were hard to come by (no stock exchange). Jews in other words looked at first glance like us but turned out very much not to be, just as harmless little old cat ladies turned out to be malevolent witches who made the harvest fail, and your thingy go floppy. NB also that the muslims are no slouches at anti-Semitism, and while Jesus was a major prophet to them, they wouldn't feel as strongly about him as Christians apparently do.
Jew-hatred was strong among Greek-speaking parts of the Roman Empire, too.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
This poll says otherwise.
The poll forced them to chose one or the other, HYFUD is arguing that they would have both - no doubt Tories are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping NI in the UK
True Unionists would give up Brexit to preserve the Union in a forced choice question.
That's quite literally a no true Scotsman.
Words which do give a sense of deja vu, I wonder if we've had this debate before.
Well prior to the referendum I pointed out because of Northern Ireland Brexit might begat the break up of the United Kingdom as votes for a certain type of Brexit cannot trump geographical reality.
I suspect in 1290, that may have been true, even if getting rid of debts was also part of it. But anti-Semitism is so last century and so last epoch now in Christianity. It certainly retains its hold in Islam, but then they started 600 years later.
Conservatives of a certain disposition have traditionally disliked anyone not W, AS, P or C. For such Cons, such folk (gay, black, jew, Romanian) are outsiders and therefore suspect. For these people also, the Jews' biggest crime is the killing of JC - their original sin. However, a large number of such Conservatives realise that times move on, and whether it's the killing of Christ or Mafeking, we now live in a different era so they are increasingly less disinclination. The "more Estonians than Etonians" comment was said with both resignation, acceptance and some degree of affection.
Analogous Labour types, meanwhile, have been betrayed by the Jews. Formerly plucky victims who manifestly needed saving, the Jews then turned into criminals of the highest order who don't confine their imperial ambitions to the Middle East, but want to oppress the poor all over the world, most often utilising their privileged positions in banking and finance, politics, and media. For these Labour types, there is no worse crime than such a class betrayal (cf. working class types who make good and thereby become part of the capitalist running dog class). And there really has been no forgiveness or acceptance because there is always "look at Israel" to rally the troops.
For a host of reasons, I don't believe killing JC is at the heart of anti Semitism. The Romans dunnit (I know it's not that simple, but "crucified under Pontius Pilate" is what it says in the creed); to the extent it was the Jews, it was Jew on Jew; someone had to do it or the Christian narrative breaks down; etc. I suspect it is just having a large religious outgroup, white like the Christians but with subtly different physical characteristics, in our midst, and the right to lend at interest riled both the indebted, and the well-heeled who would have liked some of the action themselves at a time when investment opportunities were hard to come by (no stock exchange). Jews in other words looked at first glance like us but turned out very much not to be, just as harmless little old cat ladies turned out to be malevolent witches who made the harvest fail, and your thingy go floppy. NB also that the muslims are no slouches at anti-Semitism, and while Jesus was a major prophet to them, they wouldn't feel as strongly about him as Christians apparently do.
Jew-hatred was strong among Greek-speaking parts of the Roman Empire, too.
There’ve been some very violent anti-Jewish outbreaks in English history. Lincoln and York are possibly the best known examples. Not so sure about Scottish, however I’m sure someone here knows.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Cry me a river.
So your concern about the anti-Semitic mural is, as Corbynites believe, entirely insincere and party political. Noted.
Just catching up on the thread this morning it is clear that labour have an anti Semitic problem not least because Corbyn publicly admitted it yesterday.
It will not damage his core vote but the core vote does not win elections and he needs to reach out to other voters, including conservative voters, and that clearly is not happening.
The danger for Corbyn is coming from his own PLP who are livid over the sacking of Owen Smith, his poorly received response to the Russian nerve agent attack, and now this.
Louise Ellman MP, chair of the Jewish Labour Group, has issued an uncompromising statement to Jeremy Corbyn over the issue and Lewis Goodall of Sky has just said that the truce that has existed between Corbyn and the PLP is well and truely over.
It will be interesting to see just how this pans out but I do not think that the conservative party need to interrupt labour while they are at loggerheads over this
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
This poll says otherwise.
The poll forced them to chose one or the other, HYFUD is arguing that they would have both - no doubt Tories are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping NI in the UK
True Unionists would give up Brexit to preserve the Union in a forced choice question.
True Brexiteer Unionists would back a hard Brexit and including NI in that and go to WTO terms and no single market membership if absolutely no alternative and the DUP would take that position too.
However that is not going to happen as May has said the UK will have enough regulatory alignment to avoid a hard border in Ireland which will still enable a FTA with the EU
There’ve been some very violent anti-Jewish outbreaks in English history. Lincoln and York are possibly the best known examples. Not so sure about Scottish, however I’m sure someone here knows.
I don't either, but a quick Google produced:
"In his autobiographical Two Worlds: An Edinburgh Jewish Childhood the eminent Scottish-Jewish scholar David Daiches wrote that there are grounds for asserting that Scotland is the only European country with no history of the state persecution of Jews."
There’ve been some very violent anti-Jewish outbreaks in English history. Lincoln and York are possibly the best known examples. Not so sure about Scottish, however I’m sure someone here knows.
Scotland was very good to the Jews after the Edict of Expulsion.
IIRC I know a few academics have Scotland was the only country in Europe not to have any anti-Semitism in it during those ages.
There were no blood libels like William of Norwich in Scotland.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
This poll says otherwise.
The poll forced them to chose one or the other, HYFUD is arguing that they would have both - no doubt Tories are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping NI in the UK
True Unionists would give up Brexit to preserve the Union in a forced choice question.
As I said at the time, had I thought saying no to Brexit could guarantee the UK union, I woukd have voted no. But that is far from certain in any case
People who are sympathetic about the horrible situation of many Palestinians (and rightly so) also need to consider the other side of that equation: the horrible situation the Jewish people will be in if the Palestinians take control. Neither side's consciences are clear on this; there is , and has been, evil on both sides.
Would you prefer to be a Palestinian living in the Jewish state, or a Jew living in a Palestinian one? (Though even such terminology has become fraught).
Pretty much agree with this (and I'd prefer the former in your choice), but it's natural to worry more about current injustices than hypothetical alternatives. There was an article a long time back (by David Astor, I think), which summarised the situation of Jews and Palestinians as "two wronged peoples", and it's the best 3-word summary I've seen.
I've always worked on the basis that I need to be prepared to defend in public anything that I say or do, and that's kept me away from the likes of Hamas. But I do see a virtue in willingness to talk civilly to literally anyone, and Corbyn is as scrupulously polite to Tories and Kippers as he is to militant leftists with views that he disagrees with. He is also not, as some on this thread have suggested, nostalgically pro-Soviet - McDonnell even less (in fact I'd have called McDonnell on balance anti-Soviet, as he's from a different leftist tradition and actively dislikes top-down socialism and centralised state control).
A problem about all this for Labour is actually that it seems stupendously irrelevant to most voters - if Labour seems preoccupied by Israel, trans rights, NEC membership and other specialised issues, we lose credibility on stuff like the NHS where people feel we ought to be focused.
The biggest problem for Labour with the antisemitism issue will be for many members (including Corbyn) simply accepting that it's even possible. Labour has portrayed itself as anti-racist by definition. That's very dangerous, perhaps all the more so because it does indeed have a pretty good record on the subject - which is the problem: that record came about because of actions, not assertions.
To accept even the possibility of institutional racism raises so many implications that are so profoundly contrary to Labour's self-image that the question becomes too difficult to ask.
In any case - aren't Jews rich and powerful and therefore Tories? So it's really class-hatred, and that's fine.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
This poll says otherwise.
The poll forced them to chose one or the other, HYFUD is arguing that they would have both - no doubt Tories are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping NI in the UK
True Unionists would give up Brexit to preserve the Union in a forced choice question.
As I said at the time, had I thought saying no to Brexit could guarantee the UK union, I woukd have voted no. But that is far from certain in any case
Plus the SNP lost almost half their MPs post Brexit and the DUP won most seats at the NI Assembly elections and a majority of NI MPs post Brexit too
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Cry me a river.
So your concern about the anti-Semitic mural is, as Corbynites believe, entirely insincere and party political. Noted.
This.
There seems to be a huge disconnect between Corbyn, who has long campaigned against Israels injustices, being blamed for anti-semitism in the Labour party when quite frankly he has done very little to try and make Israel a major issue in his campaigns for leader and PM, if anything his opponents have focused on it.
Compared to Brexit where immigration was used as a trump card as part of the campaign being absolutely fine.
Personally I think it is fair enough to question immigration and wonder if policies should change on it, even if that does excite racist people it is also a legitimate view outside of just racists. These people may hold the views for the wrong reason, they may think it is economically harmful to them when it isn't (though I am not stating that) if you shut down legitimate areas of debate it generally doesn't help things.
Being largest party in NI is not relevant to the DUP's current power - It's more that they form a crucial part of the government. They'd have the same de facto power with 8 seats even if Sinn Fein had 10.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Cry me a river.
So your concern about the anti-Semitic mural is, as Corbynites believe, entirely insincere and party political. Noted.
This.
There seems to be a huge disconnect between Corbyn, who has long campaigned against Israels injustices, being blamed for anti-semitism in the Labour party when quite frankly he has done very little to try and make Israel a major issue in his campaigns for leader and PM, if anything his opponents have focused on it.
Compared to Brexit where immigration was used as a trump card as part of the campaign being absolutely fine.
Personally I think it is fair enough to question immigration and wonder if policies should change on it, even if that does excite racist people it is also a legitimate view outside of just racists. These people may hold the views for the wrong reason, they may think it is economically harmful to them when it isn't (though I am not stating that) if you shut down legitimate areas of debate it generally doesn't help things.
You do realise he is leader of the Labour party, do you, or do you just think that even if he is, he has no responsibility for anyone's actions and omissions other than his own?
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Cry me a river.
So your concern about the anti-Semitic mural is, as Corbynites believe, entirely insincere and party political. Noted.
You don't know me, and I have no desire to know you, so I'd be grateful if you'd stop speculating about my motivations.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
This poll says otherwise.
The poll forced them to chose one or the other, HYFUD is arguing that they would have both - no doubt Tories are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping NI in the UK
True Unionists would give up Brexit to preserve the Union in a forced choice question.
As I said at the time, had I thought saying no to Brexit could guarantee the UK union, I woukd have voted no. But that is far from certain in any case
Plus the SNP lost almost half their MPs post Brexit and the DUP won most seats at the NI Assembly elections and a majority of NI MPs post Brexit too
The SNP lost 37.5% of their MPs, which is as close to 25% as it is 50%.
But if we’re talking about most MPs/MSPs which party won the most seats in Scotland at GE2017 and in Holyrood 2016?
Mr. Herdson, that's the joy of making politics about morality rather than judgement.
When you define yourself and your side as good, the opponents you face must inherently be wicked. And such people are well on the way to being demonised/dehumanised. And why bother debating with them when they're just inherently wrong? It's very close to the old tactic of just shouting 'racist' when someone wonders why more wasn't done about gangs in Rotherham or Telford, when the perpetrators were almost entirely Pakistani Muslims and the victims almost entirely white British working class kids.
That also ties in the Metropolitan bubble, of course. It's why the boat race gets two and a half hours of coverage but the BBC was happy to fling F1 rights into the arms of pay TV, and why a journalist's knee got a mountain of coverage beside the molehill the (simultaneously breaking story of) Newcastle rape gang got.
And that's before we get onto the nonsense of NewSpeak, whereby 'diversity' has been redefined to mean 'no white people': https://twitter.com/BEDSAofficial
Then, when white kids get raped and the authorities turn a blind eye for reasons of 'cultural sensitivity' (politically correct cowardice) and the BBC offers internships (no white people, please - https://twitter.com/AltCapRight/status/976456163154911232), the Westminster bubble is confused and astounded that white nationalism and (at the softer end) people self-defining and identifying themselves as white is on the rise.
It will not damage his core vote but the core vote does not win elections and he needs to reach out to other voters, including conservative voters, and that clearly is not happening.
Let's not kid ourselves; it's an electoral positive for some sections of the community. Corbyn, or more likely the handlers who change his Tena for Men piss mop, know this...
Being largest party in NI is not relevant to the DUP's current power - It's more that they form a crucial part of the government. They'd have the same de facto power with 8 seats even if Sinn Fein had 10.
You're right of course, but the largest party stuff is a convenient if tiny fig leaf to cover up 'MPs bought and sold for English gold' expediency.
Many years ago I wrote a letter to the JC asking them why Lady Porter merited a four page eulogy after she ripped off the homeless in Westminster.
Because people are more complex than just one event in their lives?
She's still alive as far as I know. It was written when she escaped to Israel to avoid the long arm of the law during the Westminster housing scandal. Even Robert Maxwell got an easy ride. The running joke with the JC was how many pages were devoted to (community) success stories. In fact ONLY success stories. To be fair I'm going back a bit. Nowadays they are rather less parochial.
There’ve been some very violent anti-Jewish outbreaks in English history. Lincoln and York are possibly the best known examples. Not so sure about Scottish, however I’m sure someone here knows.
Scotland was very good to the Jews after the Edict of Expulsion.
IIRC I know a few academics have Scotland was the only country in Europe not to have any anti-Semitism in it during those ages.
There were no blood libels like William of Norwich in Scotland.
There's a reference to Jews in the Declaration of Arbroath.
'Therefore it is, Reverend Father and Lord, that we beseech your Holiness with our most earnest prayers and suppliant hearts, inasmuch as you will in your sincerity and goodness consider all this, that, since with Him Whose Vice-Regent on earth you are there is neither weighing nor distinction of Jew and Greek, Scotsman or Englishman, you will look with the eyes of a father on the troubles and privation brought by the English upon us and upon the Church of God.'
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Cry me a river.
So your concern about the anti-Semitic mural is, as Corbynites believe, entirely insincere and party political. Noted.
This.
There seems to be a huge disconnect between Corbyn, who has long campaigned against Israels injustices, being blamed for anti-semitism in the Labour party when quite frankly he has done very little to try and make Israel a major issue in his campaigns for leader and PM, if anything his opponents have focused on it.
Compared to Brexit where immigration was used as a trump card as part of the campaign being absolutely fine.
Personally I think it is fair enough to question immigration and wonder if policies should change on it, even if that does excite racist people it is also a legitimate view outside of just racists. These people may hold the views for the wrong reason, they may think it is economically harmful to them when it isn't (though I am not stating that) if you shut down legitimate areas of debate it generally doesn't help things.
You do realise he is leader of the Labour party, do you, or do you just think that even if he is, he has no responsibility for anyone's actions and omissions other than his own?
He's as responsible for anti-semitic attitudes within Labour as May is for those within the Conservative party.
No. First most will want to keep NI in the UK and have Brexit and secondly while the DUP remains the largest party in Northern Ireland it is an irrelevant discussion anyway however much a liberal non Unionist like you may wish to break up the Union we Conservative and Unionists will ensure that is not the case
Meanwhile, an overwhelming majority of Tory voters said they would prioritise leaving the EU over maintaining a United Kingdom - which very much goes against the party's full name - the Conservative and Unionist party.
Most Tory voters want to preserve the Union and have Brexit, hence the 90% of Scottish Tories who voted No in Scotland in 2014 and the 60% of UK Tories who voted Leave in 2016
This poll says otherwise.
The poll forced them to chose one or the other, HYFUD is arguing that they would have both - no doubt Tories are overwhelmingly in favour of keeping NI in the UK
True Unionists would give up Brexit to preserve the Union in a forced choice question.
True Brexiteer Unionists would back a hard Brexit and including NI in that and go to WTO terms and no single market membership if absolutely no alternative and the DUP would take that position too.
However that is not going to happen as May has said the UK will have enough regulatory alignment to avoid a hard border in Ireland which will still enable a FTA with the EU
"Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
It will not damage his core vote but the core vote does not win elections and he needs to reach out to other voters, including conservative voters, and that clearly is not happening.
Let's not kid ourselves; it's an electoral positive for some sections of the community. Corbyn, or more likely the handlers who change his Tena for Men piss mop, know this...
Although it's only a positive as long as it happens under wraps. If a party starts to be seen as institutionally racist, it becomes less of a net advantage.
Logs in to find people still trying to defend a major party leader being surrounded by racists.
Imagine if it were Mrs May that hung around at rallies and in chatrooms full of nazi flags, what would be the reaction from the other side?
Labour MPs really need to grow a pair and either resign the whip or mount a leadership challenge - with a more credible candidate than Owen Somebody this time.
Well done to @SouthamObserver who's been consistent on this issue for years, hopefully we shall shortly see the return of a sensible centre-left party.
"Ratings agency Moody's said new car registrations were likely to fall 5.5% in 2018, making the UK the "worst performing" market of any big European economy.
By contrast, it said Germany, Spain, France and Italy would all see gains.
Moody's said the fall in the value of the pound since the EU referendum had made imported cars more expensive.
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Cry me a river.
So your concern about the anti-Semitic mural is, as Corbynites believe, entirely insincere and party political. Noted.
This.
Compared to Brexit where immigration was used as a trump card as part of the campaign being absolutely fine.
Personally I think it is fair enough to question immigration and wonder if policies should change on it, even if that does excite racist people it is also a legitimate view outside of just racists. These people may hold the views for the wrong reason, they may think it is economically harmful to them when it isn't (though I am not stating that) if you shut down legitimate areas of debate it generally doesn't help things.
You do realise he is leader of the Labour party, do you, or do you just think that even if he is, he has no responsibility for anyone's actions and omissions other than his own?
He's as responsible for anti-semitic attitudes within Labour as May is for those within the Conservative party.
40% of Conservatives agreed with one anti-semitic statement 32% of Labour agreed with one anti-semitic statement
You know as well as anyone that this is about Corbyn's behaviour - not that of Labour members.
Also, selectively focusing on that one stat from the report is not really on. Look at the wider context of that section of the report and it is clear where the problem is.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Cry me a river.
So your concern about the anti-Semitic mural is, as Corbynites believe, entirely insincere and party political. Noted.
This.
There seems to be a huge disconnect between Corbyn, who has long campaigned against Israels injustices, being blamed for anti-semitism in the Labour party when quite frankly he has done very little to try and make Israel a major issue in his campaigns for leader and PM, if anything his opponents have focused on it.
Compared to Brexit where immigration was used as a trump card as part of the campaign being absolutely fine.
Personally I think it is fair enough to question immigration and wonder if policies should change on it, even if that does excite racist people it is also a legitimate view outside of just racists. These people may hold the views for the wrong reason, they may think it is economically harmful to them when it isn't (though I am not stating that) if you shut down legitimate areas of debate it generally doesn't help things.
You do realise he is leader of the Labour party, do you, or do you just think that even if he is, he has no responsibility for anyone's actions and omissions other than his own?
He's as responsible for anti-semitic attitudes within Labour as May is for those within the Conservative party.
40% of Conservatives agreed with one anti-semitic statement 32% of Labour agreed with one anti-semitic statement
It's easy to pick out the odd stat and conclude either "no problem here" or "they're all as bad and some are worse". I'm sure you can find individual examples of racist and antisemitic comments from Tory, Lib Dem and SNP members. In organisations of that scale, it's silly to expect zero problems.
But where Labour has a specific problem - well beyond that of other parties - is both in the depth of the antisemitism harboured (candidates questioning the Holocaust, for example), and also in the passive anti-Jewish racism tolerated at the highest levels of the party.
"Ratings agency Moody's said new car registrations were likely to fall 5.5% in 2018, making the UK the "worst performing" market of any big European economy.
By contrast, it said Germany, Spain, France and Italy would all see gains.
Moody's said the fall in the value of the pound since the EU referendum had made imported cars more expensive.
Did I hear that the UK had the worst performing stock market this morning? And they were blaming Brexit! You could've knocked me down with a feather...
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
Or it's possible to create antisemitic tropes to appeal to antisemites and 'hide' them behind masonic and other tropes?
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
The painter's comments about Jews complaining that he was showing up "their beloved Rothschild and Warburg for the demons they are" show what he was aiming at, anyway.
One day those behind the Leave campaigns’ posters will have as much honesty about what they were aiming at.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Cry me a river.
So your concern about the anti-Semitic mural is, as Corbynites believe, entirely insincere and party political. Noted.
You don't know me, and I have no desire to know you, so I'd be grateful if you'd stop speculating about my motivations.
Leave advocates will struggle to climb on their high horses after they've been rolling around in the gutter.
Stepping back a little, what I think we are seeing here is part of what I hope will be a longer-term reassessment of Corbyn by people who have been prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. He has had an incredibly soft ride given his extremism and naivety. His clear and unambiguous association with anti-semitism is of course not news, and PBers who have posted upthread that it won't of itself be a big electoral liability are right. Nonetheless it will have an effect for some - the Jewish community for starters, as well as the remaining decent Labour MPs. Other factors - his support for the IRA, his economic madness, his apparent siding with Putin on an outrageous and dangerous incident in a small English town - will cumulatively peel off support from Labour, in the cold light of day. Of course there are also factors playing in the opposite direction, but that doesn't mean that these Corbyn-specific factors are insignificant.
Mr. Meeks, do you believe everyone who voted leave must necessarily endorse (or specifically recant) everything everyone who campaigned to leave did and said?
If not, then surely you'd accept there were various reasons to vote for leave, as there were for remain, and that voting one way or another does not imply or demand that a given individual supports everything the very many groups and individuals in either campaign did?
Corbyn may think he is not technically anti Jewish but he is largely anti Israel, just as he is anti American and his support for the Palestinians and the Russians is clearly as a counterweight to them
Tha's pretty fair. I agree he's largely against the policies of both the United States and Israel (he's nothing against individuals who happen to come from there), on which I think he's largely right, and that's over the years led him to give airtime to people who on closer inspection are best kept far away. It didn't really matter much when he was a backbencher and would talk to anyone but it needs attention as a leader. But specifically on Israel, it's not only possible but easy to consistently oppose their policies over most of the last 20 years without being anti-semitic. Labour Friends of Israel, on which I was a national executive member (possibly the only non-Jewish member, who cares), has exactly that position.
It is just as wrong to assume that if one's Jewish (or even merely not anti-semitic) one "must" like Israel and its policies, as the reverse, to think that if one's sympathetic to the horrible situation of many Palestinians one should start worrying about Jewish conspiracies. Both some passionate Zionists and some passionate pro-Palestinians fall into the trap of conflating the two.
Corbyn comes across to me as a passive antisemite. Someone who would never, ever think of himself as one, and is genuinely horrified that he's called one, yet his actions and words give succour to antisemites.
He's thick and dangerous.
That is quite possible. Even this so-called artwork at first glance seems more about masons than Jews, especially if the viewer is not attuned to anti-semitic tropes
If you showed it to a child who knows nothing of symbology, the first thing they'd notice is the black people acting as slaves by making a table for the white people. It's blatantly racist.
"Ratings agency Moody's said new car registrations were likely to fall 5.5% in 2018, making the UK the "worst performing" market of any big European economy.
By contrast, it said Germany, Spain, France and Italy would all see gains.
Moody's said the fall in the value of the pound since the EU referendum had made imported cars more expensive.
Labour's problem is not that they have members with unsavoury views. All parties have that from time to time. The problem is that when these views have come to light Labour haven't dealt with it robustly and indeed some people who were kicked out have now been let back in.
Comments
opponents gang up on you
supporters unite with you.
Your article in your link to the Corbyn-bashing is embarrassingly unscientific.
Basically, it states that some of the right wing newspaper coverage isn't favourable. Duh! You can apply it to the Labour party in general. What next? The Pope has a tendency to shit in the woods and bears have a bias towards religion?
First of all, you'd need to survey all the media outlets, estimate their reach and effectiveness, and explain and defend your methods of estimating bias. All this link does is present selected evidence on what they perceive as bias. If I were refereeing this paper, I'd throw it in the nearest waste bin.
Like beauty, bias is in the eye of the beholder and the bias is writ large in your link.
The BBC has a bias towards metropolitan liberals but tries not to make it obvious. Most of the media is middle-class and prefers what they see as 'couth' individuals. Trump definitely fails on this alone. Corbyn can verge towards uncouthness at times. This isn't a political judgement, it's a social one - even though socially, he's one of their own.
The media contain a mixture of biases.
Corbyn has his own consistent biases. He dislikes the holders of power - unless they conform to his own brand of politics. Hence the USA is always wrong, the Conservatives eat babies, the UK is a capitalist running dog to the fascist hyenas. Israel fails on many counts for him.
The communist and former communist countries are always right, unless they break one of his commandments.
This bias isn't just politics, it's life, and it affects everyone. Most people instinctively know this. There isn't a true account from any one source, so the more there are, the better.
He's thick and dangerous.
People who are sympathetic about the horrible situation of many Palestinians (and rightly so) also need to consider the other side of that equation: the horrible situation the Jewish people will be in if the Palestinians take control. Neither side's consciences are clear on this; there is , and has been, evil on both sides.
Would you prefer to be a Palestinian living in the Jewish state, or a Jew living in a Palestinian one? (Though even such terminology has become fraught).
https://twitter.com/chrismullinexmp/status/978160263848394752?s=20
Analogous Labour types, meanwhile, have been betrayed by the Jews. Formerly plucky victims who manifestly needed saving, the Jews then turned into criminals of the highest order who don't confine their imperial ambitions to the Middle East, but want to oppress the poor all over the world, most often utilising their privileged positions in banking and finance, politics, and media. For these Labour types, there is no worse crime than such a class betrayal (cf. working class types who make good and thereby become part of the capitalist running dog class). And there really has been no forgiveness or acceptance because there is always "look at Israel" to rally the troops.
That's the most offensive thing I've ever read here.
Though in fairness there would be less of a difference if we compared say Miliband to Corbyn. Although I think almost everyone would agree the papers have been a bit stronger in their opinions on the latter.
Last part is the million dollar question, I would suggest the people who aren't heavily interested in politics, like us lot on here, didn't seem to believe so if the 40% is anything to go by. Even the Guardian didn't back Corbyn until close to the election after spending the previous two years being far more against him than for him. The public didn't seem to agree with this press assessment when they saw him during the campaign.
The impression built solely by the media was shattered when the election rules forced more balanced coverage and he was able to get his message across. Whilst not conclusive proof it certainly provides an indication as far as I am concerned that the media are representing their version of Corbyn.
Jeremy Corbyn’s half-apology yesterday would have been quite enough to make the subject go away on Friday. As it is, he’s behind the curve. He’s going to have to do more.
He’s in a strong enough position in the party that some ritual self-criticism is in order. I’m sure John McDonnell with his love of Maoist China would approve.
Besides, as someone pointed out the other day, it's not even any good.
Has Corbyn ennobled anyone other than Baroness Chakrabarti?
The particular incident of the offensive anti-semitic mural was not relating to Israel though, it was an older type of anti-semitism more aligned to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I think there are pockets of Anti-semitism in the far left, though there have also been incidents in other parties such as my own LDs. I dont think any party is systematically anti-semitic though, and both parties have elected representatives, and even leaders of Jewish extraction in recent times.
But most Leave advocates are simply satisfied that they were better shots.
Jews, of course, were, before the expulsion, the property of the Kings of England, indicating that they were certainly not equivalent to everyone or anyone else around them and hence as you say were convenient as an "other" group.
Good point also about those Muslims who are anti-semitic. I had tried to relate the debate to our current politics but yes; perhaps in the Middle East it was a battle for primacy between all the Abrahamic religions, made more acute in the 20th century for all the reasons we know.
The Corbynites are more honest but also more extreme, leading to qualms among their less metropolitan adherents. It's a delicate balancing act and could decide the next GE.
The referendum brought this into sharp relief.
Words which do give a sense of deja vu, I wonder if we've had this debate before.
I suspect in 1290, that may have been true, even if getting rid of debts was also part of it. But anti-Semitism is so last century and so last epoch now in Christianity. It certainly retains its hold in Islam, but then they started 600 years later.
It will not damage his core vote but the core vote does not win elections and he needs to reach out to other voters, including conservative voters, and that clearly is not happening.
The danger for Corbyn is coming from his own PLP who are livid over the sacking of Owen Smith, his poorly received response to the Russian nerve agent attack, and now this.
Louise Ellman MP, chair of the Jewish Labour Group, has issued an uncompromising statement to Jeremy Corbyn over the issue and Lewis Goodall of Sky has just said that the truce that has existed between Corbyn and the PLP is well and truely over.
It will be interesting to see just how this pans out but I do not think that the conservative party need to interrupt labour while they are at loggerheads over this
However that is not going to happen as May has said the UK will have enough regulatory alignment to avoid a hard border in Ireland which will still enable a FTA with the EU
https://www.google.fr/search?q=jewish+chronicle+sir+philip+green&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=87C4Wq67DO2A8QfvsbOwBQ.
Many years ago I wrote a letter to the JC asking them why Lady Porter merited a four page eulogy after she ripped off the homeless in Westminster.
"In his autobiographical Two Worlds: An Edinburgh Jewish Childhood the eminent Scottish-Jewish scholar David Daiches wrote that there are grounds for asserting that Scotland is the only European country with no history of the state persecution of Jews."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Scotland#Middle_Ages_to_union_with_England
IIRC I know a few academics have Scotland was the only country in Europe not to have any anti-Semitism in it during those ages.
There were no blood libels like William of Norwich in Scotland.
I've always worked on the basis that I need to be prepared to defend in public anything that I say or do, and that's kept me away from the likes of Hamas. But I do see a virtue in willingness to talk civilly to literally anyone, and Corbyn is as scrupulously polite to Tories and Kippers as he is to militant leftists with views that he disagrees with. He is also not, as some on this thread have suggested, nostalgically pro-Soviet - McDonnell even less (in fact I'd have called McDonnell on balance anti-Soviet, as he's from a different leftist tradition and actively dislikes top-down socialism and centralised state control).
A problem about all this for Labour is actually that it seems stupendously irrelevant to most voters - if Labour seems preoccupied by Israel, trans rights, NEC membership and other specialised issues, we lose credibility on stuff like the NHS where people feel we ought to be focused.
To accept even the possibility of institutional racism raises so many implications that are so profoundly contrary to Labour's self-image that the question becomes too difficult to ask.
In any case - aren't Jews rich and powerful and therefore Tories? So it's really class-hatred, and that's fine.
There seems to be a huge disconnect between Corbyn, who has long campaigned against Israels injustices, being blamed for anti-semitism in the Labour party when quite frankly he has done very little to try and make Israel a major issue in his campaigns for leader and PM, if anything his opponents have focused on it.
Compared to Brexit where immigration was used as a trump card as part of the campaign being absolutely fine.
Personally I think it is fair enough to question immigration and wonder if policies should change on it, even if that does excite racist people it is also a legitimate view outside of just racists. These people may hold the views for the wrong reason, they may think it is economically harmful to them when it isn't (though I am not stating that) if you shut down legitimate areas of debate it generally doesn't help things.
Being largest party in NI is not relevant to the DUP's current power - It's more that they form a crucial part of the government. They'd have the same de facto power with 8 seats even if Sinn Fein had 10.
But if we’re talking about most MPs/MSPs which party won the most seats in Scotland at GE2017 and in Holyrood 2016?
When you define yourself and your side as good, the opponents you face must inherently be wicked. And such people are well on the way to being demonised/dehumanised. And why bother debating with them when they're just inherently wrong? It's very close to the old tactic of just shouting 'racist' when someone wonders why more wasn't done about gangs in Rotherham or Telford, when the perpetrators were almost entirely Pakistani Muslims and the victims almost entirely white British working class kids.
That also ties in the Metropolitan bubble, of course. It's why the boat race gets two and a half hours of coverage but the BBC was happy to fling F1 rights into the arms of pay TV, and why a journalist's knee got a mountain of coverage beside the molehill the (simultaneously breaking story of) Newcastle rape gang got.
And that's before we get onto the nonsense of NewSpeak, whereby 'diversity' has been redefined to mean 'no white people': https://twitter.com/BEDSAofficial
Then, when white kids get raped and the authorities turn a blind eye for reasons of 'cultural sensitivity' (politically correct cowardice) and the BBC offers internships (no white people, please - https://twitter.com/AltCapRight/status/976456163154911232), the Westminster bubble is confused and astounded that white nationalism and (at the softer end) people self-defining and identifying themselves as white is on the rise.
There's a thing. /endrant
'Therefore it is, Reverend Father and Lord, that we beseech your Holiness with our most earnest prayers and suppliant hearts, inasmuch as you will in your sincerity and goodness consider all this, that, since with Him Whose Vice-Regent on earth you are there is neither weighing nor distinction of Jew and Greek, Scotsman or Englishman, you will look with the eyes of a father on the troubles and privation brought by the English upon us and upon the Church of God.'
https://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf
40% of Conservatives agreed with one anti-semitic statement
32% of Labour agreed with one anti-semitic statement
Imagine if it were Mrs May that hung around at rallies and in chatrooms full of nazi flags, what would be the reaction from the other side?
Labour MPs really need to grow a pair and either resign the whip or mount a leadership challenge - with a more credible candidate than Owen Somebody this time.
Well done to @SouthamObserver who's been consistent on this issue for years, hopefully we shall shortly see the return of a sensible centre-left party.
By contrast, it said Germany, Spain, France and Italy would all see gains.
Moody's said the fall in the value of the pound since the EU referendum had made imported cars more expensive.
It also said Brexit-related uncertainty was "weighing on consumer spending decisions".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43534484
Also, selectively focusing on that one stat from the report is not really on. Look at the wider context of that section of the report and it is clear where the problem is.
But where Labour has a specific problem - well beyond that of other parties - is both in the depth of the antisemitism harboured (candidates questioning the Holocaust, for example), and also in the passive anti-Jewish racism tolerated at the highest levels of the party.
If not, then surely you'd accept there were various reasons to vote for leave, as there were for remain, and that voting one way or another does not imply or demand that a given individual supports everything the very many groups and individuals in either campaign did?
https://order-order.com/2018/03/26/corbyn-personally-joined-third-anti-semitic-facebook-group/