The 2005 election puzzled me. Charlie Kennedy launched his campaign at my Sixth Form College. You'd have thought after Iraq the focus would have been on removing Labour MPs. But no, he thought the place to start was Godalming.
Surrey SW was one of the LD's top targets at the 2005 election having reduced the Tory majority to 861 in 2001.
This is now my patch - I work in Godalming and hope to stand for the council next year - was writing a newsletter testerday. It's, um, not an area where Labour expects to lose any seats... (current status: 0)
Good luck!
Appropos of that part of the world, I see that Surrey County Council 4 different sets of x reisndets/independents on their council, that's nuts.
been out in meetings all day - catching up now but I believe John Woodcock has become even more impressive whilst I've been out?
As if we needed reminding, he really really does not like Jeremy Corbyn.
His patch has been trending more and more Tory over the years it seems - it would make sense if he was less extremely left, the same way that Democrat who won a republican stronghold a couple of weeks back was far from the most liberal lefty, but I don't actually if Woodcock is a blairite or whatever, or just genuinely dislikes what Corbyn stands for.
One man was handing out "Labour against the witch hunt" leaflets. Another gave a speech attacking the Jewish Board of Deputies, ending with the battle cry: "Freedom for Palestine, Corbyn for prime minister!"
It’s this kind of nonsense which is why so many people dislike Tony Blair.
Re Corbyn and his backbenchers: this has been the case since 2015, and has not really held him back. As one PBer has said before, if being a united party was the most important thing the LDs would be soaring in the polls right now.
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
John Woodcock's scathing intervention was followed up afterwards by a very powerful contribution from Tom Tugendhat. I can see why he is seen by some as a future leader.
The noticeable feature of John Woodcock's brutal attack on Corbyn was the empty benches behind him and the small cluster of Corbyn's diehard supporters immediately behind him.
Tom Tugendhat's speech was so powerful my wife stopped what she was doing to listen.
Why on earth is he not defence secretary over the very immature Williamson
He [Williamson] also revealed that the Prime Minister always intended to step aside if Britain voted to leave the EU. Mr Williamson said: "Him and I were sat having a cup of tea before phoning the Queen and it was obvious that he felt it was the right thing to do."
I have a Labour MP. My Labour MP is Jared O'Mara, why can't I have John Woodcock as my MP?
Last time seen in parliament?....
I thought as of January he was back to work. Yet to speak in debate though apparently. And I know that is not all there is to being an MP, certainly, but come on.
Interesting how certain terms come to take on new meanings so far divorced from their geographic origins. Though of course Tsar is another example.
India has been rather a rich source of 'new' english words. I think pyjamas and bungalow are two I remember as favourites
I once convinced someone that the etymology of bungalow was this.
Some builders were building a two storey house, but half way through the client ran out of money, and only had one storey built, so hey told the builders to 'bung a low' roof on the building and he'd live in a one storey house.
Thus the word 'bungalow' was born.
I just looked up the actual etymology, which is mildly interesting: it's a house in the Bengali style.
He [Williamson] also revealed that the Prime Minister always intended to step aside if Britain voted to leave the EU. Mr Williamson said: "Him and I were sat having a cup of tea before phoning the Queen and it was obvious that he felt it was the right thing to do."
Well he was PPS, but that still sounds as credible to me as Leadsom sitting down with the Governor of the B of E.
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
The 2005 election puzzled me. Charlie Kennedy launched his campaign at my Sixth Form College. You'd have thought after Iraq the focus would have been on removing Labour MPs. But no, he thought the place to start was Godalming.
Surrey SW was one of the LD's top targets at the 2005 election having reduced the Tory majority to 861 in 2001.
This is now my patch - I work in Godalming and hope to stand for the council next year - was writing a newsletter testerday. It's, um, not an area where Labour expects to lose any seats... (current status: 0)
The scale of the LD collapse in the seat since 2005 is astounding, from 39.5% in 2005 to 9.9% in 2017 with Labour now ahead of them.
It’s this kind of nonsense which is why so many people dislike Tony Blair.
Re Corbyn and his backbenchers: this has been the case since 2015, and has not really held him back. As one PBer has said before, if being a united party was the most important thing the LDs would be soaring in the polls right now.
Are they united, or is their position re:Brexit the glue holding them together?
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
It will be really interesting to see how the psychology of a second referendum plays out. I think for a lot of people who voted Leave, the first referendum was simply a way to say, "Nobody asked my opinion about this and I'm not happy."
Now that we've had a couple of years of wrestling with the reality of what it means to leave the EU, many of those people may feel happy to give their informed consent to our continuing membership, and in the long run it will remove the toxicity of the issue within our politics.
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
Good points Nick. See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
It will be really interesting to see how the psychology of a second referendum plays out. I think for a lot of people who voted Leave, the first referendum was simply a way to say, "Nobody asked my opinion about this and I'm not happy."
Now that we've had a couple of years of wrestling with the reality of what it means to leave the EU, many of those people may feel happy to give their informed consent to our continuing membership, and in the long run it will remove the toxicity of the issue within our politics.
Yet there has been no movement in the polls, so I am not sure your thesis holds.
Holocaust denial does not just exist on the Far Right of politics. It exists on the Left as well. Corbyn should know. He travelled to Syria with just such a group.
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
I wish I could say that but in my part of London the impact of uncontrolled migration from the EU is evident.
There are new slums - properties or dwellings with 15 or 20 adults "living" in a two or three bedroom house. It's also clear for all those who come here to work and make a honest living, there are regrettably those who don't or have disappeared into a growing "black" economy.
Holocaust denial does not just exist on the Far Right of politics. It exists on the Left as well. Corbyn should know. He travelled to Syria with just such a group.
I see how he couldn't just do a statement apologizing, it had to start with the far right yadda yadda, but...
It is like his world view, the rich powerful global Western Tory elite at fault for everything, yadda yadda ...
Also, the number of seats on the bus are not fixed. Britain had a population of maybe 6000 in 5000BC and 3 million in Roman times, 10.5 million in 1801, 38 million in 1901 and is currently estimated at 65 million. There is no particular reason to assume that it has suddenly become full or overcrowded.
The problem with those charts is that house price growth was suggestst in the period when immigration was weakest, suggesting that while it may will be a factor, it cannot be the dominant one.
House price growth was strongest as a ratio to earnings from 2000 to 2007 when we had free movement from Eastern Europe, banks and building societies providing mortgages up to 7 times salary and low housebuilding levels. It was a combination of all 3 which had an effect
I'm sorry, but that's simply not true.
Real terms house price growth was strongest in the 1980s, when net immigration to the UK was flat to negative.
Immigration went decisively positive in the first half of the 1990s, when house prices collapsed.
I've produced a scatter chart for a report I'm writing, which goes all the way back to 1973, and the correlation seems to be - at the very best - weakly positive. (And to get a weakly positive result you need to really cherry pick the data: using a rolling average, and offsetting the datasets by a year. Basically, playing with the stats in a way that would embarrass even a member of the IPCC.)
I'm happy to share the data with you, but whichever way you cut it, immigration has not been the primary driver of house price moves in the UK. It may well be *a* driver (and indeed, I'd be staggered if it wasn't), but other factors fit the data much better.
I wonder if there is a more subtle impact: driving people out of areas and thereby increasing the purchasing power of buyers in the next most attractive area
Eg when I was growing up it was doctors and architects living on the Phillimore Estate. In the 1990s it was bankers; in the 2000s hedgies. Now it’s oligarchs.
But in the 2000s when bankers were forced to start buying south of Ken High Street prices in Scarsdale Villas went through the roof because you had an influx of relatively well off and liquid buyers descending en masse
As this effect ripples out it gets diluted, but even a small number of people can impact prices
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
Good points Nick. See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
If Leavers could admit that they won through xenophobic lies, a constructive debate could begin. But until they do, the bitterness and the shouting will endure.
Holocaust denial does not just exist on the Far Right of politics. =.
Yes, that felt like an odd aside in the letter. Is he really saying there are no holocaust deniers on the Left? Ideally there would be none anywhere, but it seems really improbable that only right wing fascists have done so.
It's also clear for all those who come here to work and make a honest living, there are regrettably those who don't or have disappeared into a growing "black" economy.
Your link is an example of criminality, not an effect of free movement. In fact it's much easier for such people to control their victims if their status in the UK is illegal because then they are trapped and vulnerable to blackmail. It has always gone on, with people being trafficked from places like Thailand to work in the sex industry being an obvious example.
He [Williamson] also revealed that the Prime Minister always intended to step aside if Britain voted to leave the EU. Mr Williamson said: "Him and I were sat having a cup of tea before phoning the Queen and it was obvious that he felt it was the right thing to do."
What?
Cameron made his speech outside Number 10 just after 8am on the morning after the referendum.
Is it seriously being suggested that Cameron rang the Queen before 8am in the morning?
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
Good points Nick. See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
If Leavers could admit that they won through xenophobic lies, a constructive debate could begin. But until they do, the bitterness and the shouting will endure.
I really don't know where to begin with that. Well, maybe I do
1 - Leavers are not a single body of people with one set of ideas or motivations. Those who voted to leave did so for a vast range of reasons. To try to diminish that group of people with a smear says more about you than them.
2 - I do not believe you want a constructive debate. You just want people to switch sides to supporting your view of things. I sense no desire on your part to actually listen to opposing arguments.
3 - At least you admit you are bitter. And that you are the one doing the shouting.
I think we all know you have strong feelings on this subject. But the constant repetition of this sort of posting does you no favours. You won't win hearts and minds like this.
And I write as someone who voted - albeit reluctantly - for Remain. I was persuaded by the economic arguments being put forward by Remain - even though I have major issues with the legal institutions of the EU and the lack of democratic accountability that comes with them.
The ad, which the US star linked to on his Twitter, sees a bartender slide a beer past three black people before it stops near the hand of a lighter-skinned woman. As the woman picks up the beer, the tagline "sometimes, lighter is better" appears on screen.
Heineken said it had "missed the mark" with the advert.
He [Williamson] also revealed that the Prime Minister always intended to step aside if Britain voted to leave the EU. Mr Williamson said: "Him and I were sat having a cup of tea before phoning the Queen and it was obvious that he felt it was the right thing to do."
What?
Cameron made his speech outside Number 10 just after 8am on the morning after the referendum.
Is it seriously being suggested that Cameron rang the Queen before 8am in the morning?
Sorry, doesn't ring true at all.
He did.
(Well his staff rang the Palace, to say is it possible to speak to the Queen, she accepted the call)
He also rang her early on September 19th 2014 to let her know the result of the Scottish referendum.
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
It will be really interesting to see how the psychology of a second referendum plays out. I think for a lot of people who voted Leave, the first referendum was simply a way to say, "Nobody asked my opinion about this and I'm not happy."
Now that we've had a couple of years of wrestling with the reality of what it means to leave the EU, many of those people may feel happy to give their informed consent to our continuing membership, and in the long run it will remove the toxicity of the issue within our politics.
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
It will be really interesting to see how the psychology of a second referendum plays out. I think for a lot of people who voted Leave, the first referendum was simply a way to say, "Nobody asked my opinion about this and I'm not happy."
Now that we've had a couple of years of wrestling with the reality of what it means to leave the EU, many of those people may feel happy to give their informed consent to our continuing membership, and in the long run it will remove the toxicity of the issue within our politics.
OTOH, they may take the view "What part of Leave don't you understand."
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
Good points Nick. See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
If Leavers could admit that they won through xenophobic lies, a constructive debate could begin. But until they do, the bitterness and the shouting will endure.
I really don't know where to begin with that. Well, maybe I do
1 - Leavers are not a single body of people with one set of ideas or motivations. Those who voted to leave did so for a vast range of reasons. To try to diminish that group of people with a smear says more about you than them.
2 - I do not believe you want a constructive debate. You just want people to switch sides to supporting your view of things. I sense no desire on your part to actually listen to opposing arguments.
3 - At least you admit you are bitter. And that you are the one doing the shouting.
I think we all know you have strong feelings on this subject. But the constant repetition of this sort of posting does you no favours. You won't win hearts and minds like this.
And I write as someone who voted - albeit reluctantly - for Remain. I was persuaded by the economic arguments being put forward by Remain - even though I have major issues with the legal institutions of the EU and the lack of democratic accountability that comes with them.
The ad, which the US star linked to on his Twitter, sees a bartender slide a beer past three black people before it stops near the hand of a lighter-skinned woman. As the woman picks up the beer, the tagline "sometimes, lighter is better" appears on screen.
Heineken said it had "missed the mark" with the advert.
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
Good points Nick. See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
If Leavers could admit that they won through xenophobic lies, a constructive debate could begin. But until they do, the bitterness and the shouting will endure.
I really don't know where to begin with that. Well, maybe I do
1 - Leavers are not a single body of people with one set of ideas or motivations. Those who voted to leave did so for a vast range of reasons. To try to diminish that group of people with a smear says more about you than them.
2 - I do not believe you want a constructive debate. You just want people to switch sides to supporting your view of things. I sense no desire on your part to actually listen to opposing arguments.
3 - At least you admit you are bitter. And that you are the one doing the shouting.
I think we all know you have strong feelings on this subject. But the constant repetition of this sort of posting does you no favours. You won't win hearts and minds like this.
And I write as someone who voted - albeit reluctantly - for Remain. I was persuaded by the economic arguments being put forward by Remain - even though I have major issues with the legal institutions of the EU and the lack of democratic accountability that comes with them.
1 It is a simple fact that Leave campaigned and won on xenophobic lies.
2 A constructive debate is only possible when there is agreement about the facts. Leave advocates can’t yet handle the truth.
The ad, which the US star linked to on his Twitter, sees a bartender slide a beer past three black people before it stops near the hand of a lighter-skinned woman. As the woman picks up the beer, the tagline "sometimes, lighter is better" appears on screen.
Heineken said it had "missed the mark" with the advert.
The ad, which the US star linked to on his Twitter, sees a bartender slide a beer past three black people before it stops near the hand of a lighter-skinned woman. As the woman picks up the beer, the tagline "sometimes, lighter is better" appears on screen.
Heineken said it had "missed the mark" with the advert.
The ad, which the US star linked to on his Twitter, sees a bartender slide a beer past three black people before it stops near the hand of a lighter-skinned woman. As the woman picks up the beer, the tagline "sometimes, lighter is better" appears on screen.
Heineken said it had "missed the mark" with the advert.
The ad, which the US star linked to on his Twitter, sees a bartender slide a beer past three black people before it stops near the hand of a lighter-skinned woman. As the woman picks up the beer, the tagline "sometimes, lighter is better" appears on screen.
Heineken said it had "missed the mark" with the advert.
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
Good points Nick. See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
If Leavers could admit that they won through xenophobic lies, a constructive debate could begin. But until they do, the bitterness and the shouting will endure.
I really don't know where to begin with that. Well, maybe I do
1 - Leavers are not a single body of people with one set of ideas or motivations. Those who voted to leave did so for a vast range of reasons. To try to diminish that group of people with a smear says more about you than them.
2 - I do not believe you want a constructive debate. You just want people to switch sides to supporting your view of things. I sense no desire on your part to actually listen to opposing arguments.
3 - At least you admit you are bitter. And that you are the one doing the shouting.
I think we all know you have strong feelings on this subject. But the constant repetition of this sort of posting does you no favours. You won't win hearts and minds like this.
And I write as someone who voted - albeit reluctantly - for Remain. I was persuaded by the economic arguments being put forward by Remain - even though I have major issues with the legal institutions of the EU and the lack of democratic accountability that comes with them.
1 It is a simple fact that Leave campaigned and won on xenophobic lies.
2 A constructive debate is only possible when there is agreement about the facts. Leave advocates can’t yet handle the truth.
3. I didn’t admit either of those things.
Re point 1 - and this is a genuine question - are you referring to the two posters towards the end of the campaign (I think) - one on Turkey and one showing a queue of young men (the one unveiled by Farage)? Or other posters/campaign leaflets?
Or is your case that campaigning against FoM was, ipso facto, xenophobic and/or a lie?
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
Good points Nick. See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
If Leavers could admit that they won through xenophobic lies, a constructive debate could begin. But until they do, the bitterness and the shouting will endure.
I really don't know where to begin with that. Well, maybe I do
1 - Leavers are not a single body of people with one set of ideas or motivations.
2 - I do not believe you want a constructive debate. You just want people to switch sides to supporting your view of things. I sense no desire on your part to actually listen to opposing arguments.
3 - At least you admit you are bitter. And that you are the one doing the shouting.
I think we all know you have strong feelings on this subject. But the constant repetition of this sort of posting does you no favours. You won't win hearts and minds like this.
And I write as someone who voted - albeit reluctantly - for Remain. I was persuaded by the economic arguments being put forward by Remain - even though I have major issues with the legal institutions of the EU and the lack of democratic accountability that comes with them.
1 It is a simple fact that Leave campaigned and won on xenophobic lies.
2 A constructive debate is only possible when there is agreement about the facts. Leave advocates can’t yet handle the truth.
3. I didn’t admit either of those things.
1 - No. It quite simply isn't a fact. It is your opinion. Strongly held, strongly and frequently expressed but still your opinion.
2 - What you have stated as being a fact is clearly an opinion - so how are you going to use that as the basis for a debate on your terms?
3 - If you aren't the bitter one doing all the shouting - who is?
We know you are beyond frustrated with the current situation. I think we can all be certain of the pain you feel at the direction things are heading. But you are more likely to alienate people than persuade them if you continue in this way.
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
Good points Nick. See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
If Leavers could admit that they won through xenophobic lies, a constructive debate could begin. But until they do, the bitterness and the shouting will endure.
I really don't know where to begin with that. Well, maybe I do
1 - Leavers are not a single body of people with one set of ideas or motivations. Those who voted to leave did so for a vast range of reasons. To try to diminish that group of people with a smear says more about you than them.
2 - I do not believe you want a constructive debate. You just want people to switch sides to supporting your view of things. I sense no desire on your part to actually listen to opposing arguments.
3 - At least you admit you are bitter. And that you are the one doing the shouting.
I think we all know you have strong feelings on this subject. But the constant repetition of this sort of posting does you no favours. You won't win hearts and minds like this.
And I write as someone who voted - albeit reluctantly - for Remain. I was persuaded by the economic arguments being put forward by Remain - even though I have major issues with the legal institutions of the EU and the lack of democratic accountability that comes with them.
1 It is a simple fact that Leave campaigned and won on xenophobic lies.
2 A constructive debate is only possible when there is agreement about the facts. Leave advocates can’t yet handle the truth.
3. I didn’t admit either of those things.
Re point 1 - and this is a genuine question - are you referring to the two posters towards the end of the campaign (I think) - one on Turkey and one showing a queue of young men (the one unveiled by Farage)? Or other posters/campaign leaflets?
Or is your case that campaigning against FoM was, ipso facto, xenophobic and/or a lie?
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
Good points Nick. See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
If Leavers could admit that they won through xenophobic lies, a constructive debate could begin. But until they do, the bitterness and the shouting will endure.
I really don't know where to begin with that. Well, maybe I do
1 - Leavers are not a single body of people with one set of ideas or motivations. Those who voted to leave did so for a vast range of reasons. To try to diminish that group of people with a smear says more about you than them.
2 - I do not believe you want a constructive debate. You just want people to switch sides to supporting your view of things. I sense no desire on your part to actually listen to opposing arguments.
3 - At least you admit you are bitter. And that you are the one doing the shouting.
I think we all know you have strong feelings on this subject. But the constant repetition of this sort of posting does you no favours. You won't win hearts and minds like this.
And I write as someone who voted - albeit reluctantly - for Remain. I was persuaded by the economic arguments being put forward by Remain - even though I have major issues with the legal institutions of the EU and the lack of democratic accountability that comes with them.
1 It is a simple fact that Leave campaigned and won on xenophobic lies.
2 A constructive debate is only possible when there is agreement about the facts. Leave advocates can’t yet handle the truth.
Leanne Wood leader of Plaid Cymru is a disgrace - she wont back Russian actions as she doesn't believe a word the Tories say without evidence as they have form
For some Leavers, I think the referendum lanced the immigration boil. In those cases, it wasn't so much that they opposed immigrants, but they felt the matter was out of control. Now it (perhaps) will be more under British control, they feel more able to say that current levels are OK.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
Thank you for posting such a fair comment.
I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
Good points Nick. See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
If Leavers could admit that they won through xenophobic lies, a constructive debate could begin. But until they do, the bitterness and the shouting will endure.
I really don't know where to begin with that. Well, maybe I do
1 - Leavers are not a single body of people with one set of ideas or motivations. Those who voted to leave did so for a vast range of reasons. To try to diminish that group of people with a smear says more about you than them.
2 - I do not believe you want a constructive debate. You just want people to switch sides to supporting your view of things. I sense no desire on your part to actually listen to opposing arguments.
3 - At least you admit you are bitter. And that you are the one doing the shouting.
I think we all know you have strong feelings on this subject. But the constant repetition of this sort of posting does you no favours. You won't win hearts and minds like this.
And I write as someone who voted - albeit reluctantly - for Remain. I was persuaded by the economic arguments being put forward by Remain - even though I have major issues with the legal institutions of the EU and the lack of democratic accountability that comes with them.
1 It is a simple fact that Leave campaigned and won on xenophobic lies.
2 A constructive debate is only possible when there is agreement about the facts. Leave advocates can’t yet handle the truth.
3. I didn’t admit either of those things.
Re point 1 - and this is a genuine question - are you referring to the two posters towards the end of the campaign (I think) - one on Turkey and one showing a queue of young men (the one unveiled by Farage)? Or other posters/campaign leaflets?
Or is your case that campaigning against FoM was, ipso facto, xenophobic and/or a lie?
If Leavers could admit that they won through xenophobic lies, a constructive debate could begin. But until they do, the bitterness and the shouting will endure.
I really don't know where to begin with that. Well, maybe I do
1 - Leavers are not a single body of people with one set of ideas or motivations.
2 - I do not believe you want a constructive debate. You just want people to switch sides to supporting your view of things. I sense no desire on your part to actually listen to opposing arguments.
3 - At least you admit you are bitter. And that you are the one doing the shouting.
I think we all know you have strong feelings on this subject. But the constant repetition of this sort of posting does you no favours. You won't win hearts and minds like this.
And I write as someone who voted - albeit reluctantly - for Remain. I was persuaded by the economic arguments being put forward by Remain - even though I have major issues with the legal institutions of the EU and the lack of democratic accountability that comes with them.
1 It is a simple fact that Leave campaigned and won on xenophobic lies.
2 A constructive debate is only possible when there is agreement about the facts. Leave advocates can’t yet handle the truth.
3. I didn’t admit either of those things.
1 - No. It quite simply isn't a fact. It is your opinion. Strongly held, strongly and frequently expressed but still your opinion.
2 - What you have stated as being a fact is clearly an opinion - so how are you going to use that as the basis for a debate on your terms?
3 - If you aren't the bitter one doing all the shouting - who is?
We know you are beyond frustrated with the current situation. I think we can all be certain of the pain you feel at the direction things are heading. But you are more likely to alienate people than persuade them if you continue in this way.
I’m not looking to persuade. There’s none so blind as will not see and I’m not in the business of helping those impaled on their own spikes.
At some point Leavers will need to mend fences with those who are utterly disgusted at their conduct if they want Brexit to be a success. So far they have given no thought to how they are going to do that. They get outraged at the problem being pointed out. But the only way is the hard way.
Leanne Wood leader of Plaid Cymru is a disgrace - she wont back Russian actions as she doesn't believe a word the Tories say without evidence as they have form
Leanne Wood leader of Plaid Cymru is a disgrace - she wont back Russian actions as she doesn't believe a word the Tories say without evidence as they have form
The problem with those charts is that house price growth was suggestst in the period when immigration was weakest, suggesting that while it may will be a factor, it cannot be the dominant one.
House price growth was strongest as a ratio to earnings from 2000 to 2007 when we had free movement from Eastern Europe, banks and building societies providing mortgages up to 7 times salary and low housebuilding levels. It was a combination of all 3 which had an effect
I'm sorry, but that's simply not true.
Real terms house price growth was strongest in the 1980s, when net immigration to the UK was flat to negative.
Immigration went decisively positive in the first half of the 1990s, when house prices collapsed.
I've produced a scatter chart for a report I'm writing, which goes all the way back to 1973, and the correlation seems to be - at the very best - weakly positive. (And to get a weakly positive result you need to really cherry pick the data: using a rolling average, and offsetting the datasets by a year. Basically, playing with the stats in a way that would embarrass even a member of the IPCC.)
I'm happy to share the data with you, but whichever way you cut it, immigration has not been the primary driver of house price moves in the UK. It may well be *a* driver (and indeed, I'd be staggered if it wasn't), but other factors fit the data much better.
I wonder if there is a more subtle impact: driving people out of areas and thereby increasing the purchasing power of buyers in the next most attractive area
Eg when I was growing up it was doctors and architects living on the Phillimore Estate. In the 1990s it was bankers; in the 2000s hedgies. Now it’s oligarchs.
But in the 2000s when bankers were forced to start buying south of Ken High Street prices in Scarsdale Villas went through the roof because you had an influx of relatively well off and liquid buyers descending en masse
As this effect ripples out it gets diluted, but even a small number of people can impact prices
A similar sequence might happen with gentrification of previously working class areas.
Though it would be the owner-occupier oldies who benefit financially - I bet many a retirement bungalow has been bought as a consequence of gentrification - while the young and renters are steadily financially forced out of their original area.
There will be a negative equivalent at the lower end of the housing scale as well - a cheap area becomes dominated by HMOs forcing the original inhabitants into different districts.
He [Williamson] also revealed that the Prime Minister always intended to step aside if Britain voted to leave the EU. Mr Williamson said: "Him and I were sat having a cup of tea before phoning the Queen and it was obvious that he felt it was the right thing to do."
What?
Cameron made his speech outside Number 10 just after 8am on the morning after the referendum.
Is it seriously being suggested that Cameron rang the Queen before 8am in the morning?
Sorry, doesn't ring true at all.
He did.
(Well his staff rang the Palace, to say is it possible to speak to the Queen, she accepted the call)
He also rang her early on September 19th 2014 to let her know the result of the Scottish referendum.
Interesting how certain terms come to take on new meanings so far divorced from their geographic origins. Though of course Tsar is another example.
India has been rather a rich source of 'new' english words. I think pyjamas and bungalow are two I remember as favourites
I once convinced someone that the etymology of bungalow was this.
Some builders were building a two storey house, but half way through the client ran out of money, and only had one storey built, so hey told the builders to 'bung a low' roof on the building and he'd live in a one storey house.
Thus the word 'bungalow' was born.
I once convinced someone that pumpernickel was a corruption of “pain pour Nickel” and recorded Napoleons reaction to a filthy peasant bread as he fed it to his horse Nickel.
Comments
Appropos of that part of the world, I see that Surrey County Council 4 different sets of x reisndets/independents on their council, that's nuts.
His patch has been trending more and more Tory over the years it seems - it would make sense if he was less extremely left, the same way that Democrat who won a republican stronghold a couple of weeks back was far from the most liberal lefty, but I don't actually if Woodcock is a blairite or whatever, or just genuinely dislikes what Corbyn stands for.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43536830
Not sure this is very helpful.
Re Corbyn and his backbenchers: this has been the case since 2015, and has not really held him back. As one PBer has said before, if being a united party was the most important thing the LDs would be soaring in the polls right now.
The referendum also boosted the number who felt actively pro-EU and all its works including free movement - sometimes, one doesn't know what one likes till one loses it.
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2016/06/25/brexit-south-staffordshire-mp-gavin-williamson-shared-cuppa-with-the-pm-before-he-told-the-queen-of-resignation/
He [Williamson] also revealed that the Prime Minister always intended to step aside if Britain voted to leave the EU. Mr Williamson said: "Him and I were sat having a cup of tea before phoning the Queen and it was obvious that he felt it was the right thing to do."
The greatest ever Labour government, led by Clem, was also responsible for the deaths of over a million Muslims during the partition of India.
Labour truly hates Muslims, just look how many have died on their watch.
whisper it quietly but at least Mark Reckless didn't pretend to be an MP still when he was kicked out on his fat....
What is Jared O'Mara doing these days other than taking
the pisshis salary?I think that sums up the feelings of many Leavers rather well.
As for O'Mara he's submitting written questions and doing a surgery or two.
*If you ignore between 1997 and 2013 I didn't live in Sheffield.
It's surprising to learn that a Corbynista backbencher can write.
https://twitter.com/pdacosta/status/978344071642189829
oh :-)
Ah, my coat...
Now that we've had a couple of years of wrestling with the reality of what it means to leave the EU, many of those people may feel happy to give their informed consent to our continuing membership, and in the long run it will remove the toxicity of the issue within our politics.
See, if we could discuss the matter like this we wouldn't end up shouting at each opther.
If you genuinely do, then writing an apology is not hard. It is only hard when you do it because you feel you have to rather than because you want to.
Holocaust denial does not just exist on the Far Right of politics. It exists on the Left as well. Corbyn should know. He travelled to Syria with just such a group.
It is also why Corbyn's performance in today's Russia/Security debate was so tetchy - he just cannot see that his position is wrong.
There are new slums - properties or dwellings with 15 or 20 adults "living" in a two or three bedroom house. It's also clear for all those who come here to work and make a honest living, there are regrettably those who don't or have disappeared into a growing "black" economy.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/jailed-gangmaster-who-forced-up-to-15-slaves-to-share-bunks-in-tiny-onebed-flat-a3799116.html
It is like his world view, the rich powerful global Western Tory elite at fault for everything, yadda yadda ...
Eg when I was growing up it was doctors and architects living on the Phillimore Estate. In the 1990s it was bankers; in the 2000s hedgies. Now it’s oligarchs.
But in the 2000s when bankers were forced to start buying south of Ken High Street prices in Scarsdale Villas went through the roof because you had an influx of relatively well off and liquid buyers descending en masse
As this effect ripples out it gets diluted, but even a small number of people can impact prices
Cameron made his speech outside Number 10 just after 8am on the morning after the referendum.
Is it seriously being suggested that Cameron rang the Queen before 8am in the morning?
Sorry, doesn't ring true at all.
1 - Leavers are not a single body of people with one set of ideas or motivations. Those who voted to leave did so for a vast range of reasons. To try to diminish that group of people with a smear says more about you than them.
2 - I do not believe you want a constructive debate. You just want people to switch sides to supporting your view of things. I sense no desire on your part to actually listen to opposing arguments.
3 - At least you admit you are bitter. And that you are the one doing the shouting.
I think we all know you have strong feelings on this subject. But the constant repetition of this sort of posting does you no favours. You won't win hearts and minds like this.
And I write as someone who voted - albeit reluctantly - for Remain. I was persuaded by the economic arguments being put forward by Remain - even though I have major issues with the legal institutions of the EU and the lack of democratic accountability that comes with them.
The ad, which the US star linked to on his Twitter, sees a bartender slide a beer past three black people before it stops near the hand of a lighter-skinned woman. As the woman picks up the beer, the tagline "sometimes, lighter is better" appears on screen.
Heineken said it had "missed the mark" with the advert.
http://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-43542465
(Well his staff rang the Palace, to say is it possible to speak to the Queen, she accepted the call)
He also rang her early on September 19th 2014 to let her know the result of the Scottish referendum.
That is almost as jaw-droppingly tin-eared and ludicrous as the average Corbyn apology.
2 A constructive debate is only possible when there is agreement about the facts. Leave advocates can’t yet handle the truth.
3. I didn’t admit either of those things.
Or is your case that campaigning against FoM was, ipso facto, xenophobic and/or a lie?
2 - What you have stated as being a fact is clearly an opinion - so how are you going to use that as the basis for a debate on your terms?
3 - If you aren't the bitter one doing all the shouting - who is?
We know you are beyond frustrated with the current situation. I think we can all be certain of the pain you feel at the direction things are heading. But you are more likely to alienate people than persuade them if you continue in this way.
https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/734080687016431624
At some point Leavers will need to mend fences with those who are utterly disgusted at their conduct if they want Brexit to be a success. So far they have given no thought to how they are going to do that. They get outraged at the problem being pointed out. But the only way is the hard way.
Though it would be the owner-occupier oldies who benefit financially - I bet many a retirement bungalow has been bought as a consequence of gentrification - while the young and renters are steadily financially forced out of their original area.
There will be a negative equivalent at the lower end of the housing scale as well - a cheap area becomes dominated by HMOs forcing the original inhabitants into different districts.
However, I suspect she has stilled the leadership mutterings for now.
NEW THREAD