The real Question should be - How good is he at Campaigning ? Cameron was Quite good and Theresa May wasn't ,so how good is he ?
I think the real question is how much of a presence does he have, how well can he forge an image with the public as a potential PM? He's been SoS for health for almost 6 years, I follow politics, but I barely have a mental picture of him. He comes across ok, I believe Dr Foxy has said he is not the worst SOS they have had, which is probably pretty good for 6 years in post, but can he step up?
I'm just wary of the idea that someone who 'looks' right - by looks or expression - might in some way be more 'correct' than someone who does not.
I mean, just look at my profile pic!
Unfortunately I think it's very important in politics. Cameron just looked and sounded right in a way that Ed Miliband didn't. Nick Clegg looked right too. And the voice can be important. I think someone on here said that they thought Farage has a good voice.
I agree, but that says more about the observer than the observed. To a certain extent the content matters more than the deliverer or delivery.
(I await PB's multitude of lawyers to laugh. AIUI court cases often hinge on what people look and sound like over what they say - a defendant in jeans who speaks in monosyllables and constantly wipes his nose on his sleeve might come across less well than one in a suit who speaks in a posh accent. Though I'm willing to be corrected on this.).
Ken Dodd got off his tax evasion charge when the evidence was absolutely open and shut, so your second point kind of falls...
Isn't it the case that the revenue have a tough time getting convictions because jurors tend to sympathise with the accused?
It may be. But it has to be said it sounds as though Dodd did rather carve up Brian Leveson:
'One of my problems was my accountant died suddenly.' 'Did that really matter, Mr Dodd?' 'Well, it mattered to him.'
Rather pointless as Westminster will block it and they will lose their majority with the Greens at Holyrood at the next elections anyway
Westminster blocking it gives them something to work with, of course.
Personally I thought there were good and sound reasons to say there should not be another one so soon, but after a GE was called when we had started the clock ticking on A50, I think that is a tougher argument.
They might well be in breach of the law if they did otherwise. Charities have to apply their property towards their charitable objects.
I'm not sure.
I would have thought this was more about their best interests, and their might be a case to be made for handing it back in the long run.
Not really. By saying they'd hand it back when the furore was in the news got them off the hook, surreptitiously now saying they won't hand it afterall lets them keep the money and there'll be little negative furore.
ITV. Well and trully thumped in the anthems - GSTQ really is an utter dirge.
Agreed.
The only time I really enjoy singing GSTQ is when we play Australia and we rework the lyrics to
'God Save Your Queen'
GSTQ should not be the English anthem, as you say it is absurd that the English anthem is GSTQ when England plays Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Wales or NI at rugby, cricket or football as it is also their opponents anthem too.
GSTQ should only be played in the presence of the Queen or a member of the royal family and the more stirring Jerusalem should be the England anthem as it is at the Commonwealth Games. We should also get someone to compose a UK anthem too for Team GB and NI at the Olympics.
When working for the Police , the leader of the local council approached me and my colleague moaning about something He then said "Do you know who I am ? My colleague got onto his radio and said "we have a bloke here who does not know who he is.We both got a dressing down but the laughing could be heard in the control room. Nice that sometimes people do get pulled up due to their perceived importance.
Rather pointless as Westminster will block it and they will lose their majority with the Greens at Holyrood at the next elections anyway
Westminster blocking it gives them something to work with, of course.
Personally I thought there were good and sound reasons to say there should not be another one so soon, but after a GE was called when we had started the clock ticking on A50, I think that is a tougher argument.
Given the SNP lost almost half their MPs at the general election after pushing indyref2 not even that really. The SNP tried to get a mandate for indyref2 and Scottish voters gave a resounding No Thanks!
When working for the Police , the leader of the local council approached me and my colleague moaning about something He then said "Do you know who I am ? My colleague got onto his radio and said "we have a bloke here who does not know who he is.We both got a dressing down but the laughing could be heard in the control room. Nice that sometimes people do get pulled up due to their perceived importance.
Jack Straw once asked the same question in a care home. He got the immortal reply, 'No dear, but if you ask Matron she'll be able to tell you.'
When working for the Police , the leader of the local council approached me and my colleague moaning about something He then said "Do you know who I am ? My colleague got onto his radio and said "we have a bloke here who does not know who he is.We both got a dressing down but the laughing could be heard in the control room. Nice that sometimes people do get pulled up due to their perceived importance.
Great story - might have made Shami Chakrabarti smile (probably not)
I'm just wary of the idea that someone who 'looks' right - by looks or expression - might in some way be more 'correct' than someone who does not.
I mean, just look at my profile pic!
You cannot make me
I get a vision of your fine self taking Malcolm McDowell's part in 'A clockwork orange', your eyes held open as you see images of me in a balaclava ...
(And not me in Baklava, which I once mistyped. That would be a very different type of 'vision').
Isn't it rather counter-productive, from your perspective, to argue that as much as 48% of Brits were "EU fanatics" who were voting for a "single country called Europe"?
If you follow what I have said you will see I think the whole claim is rubbish. I am just using Meeks' and Topping's own logic against them to show them how idiotic their claims are.
I do not believe most Remain voters should be tarred as federalists by association just as I do not believe most Leave voters should be tarred as xenophobes by association. But that is the logic of Meeks and Topping.
It's just bollocks, it would mean you could sabotage any political campaign by getting someone sufficiently odious to support it.
Piers Morgan coming out for Brexit would have killed it....
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.
Isn't it rather counter-productive, from your perspective, to argue that as much as 48% of Brits were "EU fanatics" who were voting for a "single country called Europe"?
If you follow what I have said you will see I think the whole claim is rubbish. I am just using Meeks' and Topping's own logic against them to show them how idiotic their claims are.
I do not believe most Remain voters should be tarred as federalists by association just as I do not believe most Leave voters should be tarred as xenophobes by association. But that is the logic of Meeks and Topping.
It's just bollocks, it would mean you could sabotage any political campaign by getting someone sufficiently odious to support it.
Piers Morgan coming out for Brexit would have killed it....
Ask those protesting yesterday about the Labour Party with Jeremy Corbyn in charge.
I can see though that it might make it easier for you to deal with it by throwing shit at people's motives so you can bask in the glow that people you agree with are good and those you disagree with are evil. I imagine that people with lower intellects might use such a technique too rather than examining the myriad of reasons that went into people's decisions.....
Solzhenitsyn put it well:
“If only if it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing insidious deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
.
An elegant reply but I do feel you are suffering what can only be described as a bereavement and are taking the matter as an absolute affront to your person. It's clear that at present you feel the need to lash out somewhat however the bitter division you mention was also there before the vote but was ignored largely and now it has made itself undeniable intelligent people like yourself (whilst perhaps now feeling like many brexiters before the referendum was confirmed) can, whilst still looking for a "way back" perhaps also use part of your very good brain to think "even if I hate this I love this country (as evidenced by my upset about a bitter division damaging the country) and so I will find ways to make the best of this for the country".
I really do believe there are many Remainers who if they spent less time railing about Brexit would be able to contribute positively to the future rather than leaving it to Dr Fox et al but it requires an element of positivity on their part which I hope will come sooner rather than later..... Sometimes in life you have to say "well I wouldn't want to be in this situation in the first place but now we are here how do I make the best of it".
The best of it can only be made when Leave advocates come to recognise the disfigurement they have done to British politics. There can be no progress till then.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.
ITV. Well and trully thumped in the anthems - GSTQ really is an utter dirge.
Agreed.
The only time I really enjoy singing GSTQ is when we play Australia and we rework the lyrics to
'God Save Your Queen'
GSTQ should not be the English anthem, as you say it is absurd that the English anthem is GSTQ when England plays Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Wales or NI at rugby, cricket or football as it is also their opponents anthem too.
GSTQ should only be played in the presence of the Queen or a member of the royal family and the more stirring Jerusalem should be the England anthem as it is at the Commonwealth Games. We should also get someone to compose a UK anthem too for Team GB and NI at the Olympics.
GSTQ is the UK Anthem. It isn’t the Welsh, nor the Scots, and Australia and New Zealand have their own now too. Advance Australia Fair is pretty good, as is God defend New Zealand, although there’s too much about God. Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau makes the hair on my neck rise!
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.
No, to the first question, but he was peripheral to the campaign.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.
No, to the first question, but he was peripheral to the campaign.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
If no-one else is going to bite, I will. What's so extraordinary about it, please?
Afraid I don't know. I haven't had time to plough through all the material. On the surface there are potentially major allegations over funding of Leave campaign. Plus a whole new world (for many people) of data collection by social media.
I thought it was interesting comment given how long D'Arcy has been doing parliament stuff.
I’m curious - may be a lawyer on here can comment
Yesterday the Stabdards headline was “the Brexit criminal” above an article about Cummings. Today they have an article about him headlined “The Vote Leave money launderer”
In how th cases the headlines are in quotes - I assume they are accurate - and the articles are much more balanced
But given that most people would just st remember the headline aren’t they getting awfully close to libel?
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in order to pursue a matter of second order importance. Britain will not develop in a positive direction until Leavers confront their own choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were terrible. The vast majority of people who voted on both sides were not and are not bad people. If they were then all of us would have to condemn and insult members of our own families and circle of friends in order to be consistent. I see no malice in my loved ones who voted against what I believe to be the national interest and therefore no reason to assume bad intentions in people I don't know either.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
Doesn't wash I'm afraid. The single most influential person, the person without whom there would have been no referendum, the person without whom we would still be in the EU (and great credit to him for all of that)...stood in front of one of those posters and thereby endorsed it.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Presumably any Leave voters who used their postal votes and voted before that poster came out are exempt from your criticism?
Most likely, the majority of voters just weighed up the pros and cons, and voted accordingly.
which does't even include the cost of HMG's pamphlet.
It is all getting ridiculous really - same old people who simply cannot accept the result. If it wasn't the Russian or Facebook ads or a bus that persuaded 17.4 million people it's apparently £300k spent by a body no one had heard of until a week ago.
Just a shame the Guardian and Observer hasn't invested 1 per cent of the time it has spend on the leave campaigns on looking at the remain side who spent 50 per cent more money and that excludes the £9m on the government leaflet which went to every home. But why would they as they promote the anti Brexit cause every day with little balance at all.
Are we for example suggesting the various remain supporting entities weren't coordinating - all the main political parties in parliament backed remain as did almost every major business body, the TUC and many huge firms and banks.
Frankly I doubt there has been an election in recent years where one or more parties haven't incurred some infringement of some sort. Are we going to rerun every election just in case? Even the Lib Dems caught out and got fined.
I certainly think a review of the system is needed but not frankly a one sided witch hunt from people and papers who are still bitter about the result and still cannot accept it 21 months on.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.
No, to the first question, but he was peripheral to the campaign.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Frankly I doubt there has been an election in recent years where one or more parties haven't incurred some infringement of some sort. Are we going to rerun every election just in case?
Annual elections are the last unfulfilled pledge of the Chartists. Bring it on!
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
I think what's bothering genuine and ardent Europhiles - rather than people who just voted Remain - is that once out, for all the reasons you give it is going to be bloody hard to make a compelling case to go back in. We will not want to go through all this - even if economic consequences are quite serious - to merely have to take orders from a bunch of, frankly, third rate no hopers who would not have looked out of place in Mussolini's Italy in Brussels again.
Once we are out, we will be staying out. Admittedly, without major reform it seems likely the EU will tear itself to pieces very soon and there would be nothing to rejoin, but that's a side issue.
I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Please stop this... it's getting a bit embarrassing to read now. I bow to nobody in my horror and disappointment at the referendum result but the truth is that both campaigns were
Those
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.
No, to the first question, but he was peripheral to the campaign.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
I was referring to the short campaign. Gove, Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Andrea Leadsom formed the centrepiece of that, together with its orchestration by Cummings and Elliot.
Farage appeared in one TV debate, and a few televised Q&As, but otherwise his activity was confined to street campaigning in Northern towns, a few PR stunts, and making jibes at the official Leave campaign.
I agree that Aaron Banks' Leave.EU campaign online was fairly effective.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
I see today that 18 months ago you voted for a xenophobic campaign. You have enabled the contamination of British politics in ordewn choice and stop hiding behind what they claim to have wanted. What they claim to have wanted was not on offer.
Those who voted for a Leave campaign which included those posters implicitly agreed with, and contributed to the direction of the country towards a more xenophobic attitude. They said: yes, this is fine, this is the kind of country I want to be in. They endorsed that xenophobic, hateful campaign and they were prepared to do this because they had some nebulous idea of sovereignty (which we always were, btw).
That I imagine is why Alastair won't let it go, and quite right that he shouldn't, IMO.
Nobody voted for a campaign. It wasn't a BGT show.
It was a decision on whether or not to Remain In or Leave the EU. That was what was on the ballot paper, and that's what people voted on.
And those who voted Leave agreed with him and effectively said: yes - this is the sort of country we want and we will vote for it.
Nonsense. That person you describe wasn't even a part of the official Vote Leave campaign.
What you're saying is akin to saying everyone who voted Remain endorsed everything David Cameron and George Osborne said and stood for. Even Labour voters must have liked and endorsed David Cameron and George Osborne.
As mentioned to Tyndall, Farage _was_ Leave. Forget campaigns.
He really wasn't, Topping. If he had been so, Leave would have lost 60:40.
Do you think we would have had the referendum without him?
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.
No, to the first question, but he was peripheral to the campaign.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.
I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
No, he wasn't.
It comes down to a question of perspective, doesn't it - and at least you're more polite about it than Mr Tyndall. I was on the fence about the vote, and one of the things pushing me to remain was Farage and his ilk - his vision of the country was not one I wanted. Perhaps that meant I noticed him more than I should - or perhaps the opposite is the case for you.
And in response to a previous post: you cannot just take the short campaign in isolation: that was just the culmination of a multi-year campaign, to which Farage was front and centre.
Brexit is Farage's victory. Frankly I despise the guy and much of his politics, but I'll give him that much, He played a blinder.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.
It really is a case of Brexit Tourettes. You just can't help yourself.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
I think what's bothering genuine and ardent Europhiles - rather than people who just voted Remain - is that once out, for all the reasons you give it is going to be bloody hard to make a compelling case to go back in. We will not want to go through all this - even if economic consequences are quite serious - to merely have to take orders from a bunch of, frankly, third rate no hopers who would not have looked out of place in Mussolini's Italy in Brussels again.
Once we are out, we will be staying out. Admittedly, without major reform it seems likely the EU will tear itself to pieces very soon and there would be nothing to rejoin, but that's a side issue.
And the other point, of course, is that they stand a far better chance of fixing the existential mess they are in without us being involved. Everyone's a winner!
I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.
WRT to the European Arrest Warrant in this case, can it be argued it is invalid as the Spanish constitution is itself illegal - that is, it breaches the right of self-determination enshrined in international law?
In addition: I somewhat reluctantly voted remain, but I do not see myself as being on a 'side', yet alone the losing one. I did not campaign or invest in either 'side'. I only voted. I have freely criticised both sides. As I have said many times, I am content with leave's victory, and hope Brexit is a success.
I will only be on the 'losing' side if Brexit fails the country. As will all of us, leaver or remainer.
Too many posters - both remain and leave - are fighting a battle that is utterly harmful to the country.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
Not at all. You said something that was plainly false and I called you out on it.
I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.
Blame the media not the Leave campaign who tried to shut him out. And I would certainly say he drove more people away from voting leave than he attracted. There are people on here who have said that it was the fact that Farage was in favour of Leave that made them decide to vote Remain. Indeed I remember a long discussion last year about how daft it was to vote for or against something of such importance simply because of someone you did or did not like.
Farage won the campaign to have a referendum. If he had been anywhere near the official face of the campaign for Brexit we would have lost.
We should be eternally grateful to the Electoral Commission for choosing in favour of Vote Leave.
I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.
I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.
Eh?! Are you being ironic?
Um No. Verhofstadt was very clear and forceful in his condemnation of the Spanish Government's handling of the referendum. There were a very few others but his was by far the loudest and most welcome voice.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
Not at all. You said something that was plainly false and I called you out on it.
It is not 'plainly false', as Mr Eagle's comment shows. Farage was central and not peripheral.
I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.
Eh?! Are you being ironic?
Um No. Verhofstadt was very clear and forceful in his condemnation of the Spanish Government's handling of the referendum. There were a very few others but his was by far the loudest and most welcome voice.
Verhofstadt actually does talk a lot of sense, especially on wider foreign affairs where he has a much better grasp of the issues than any current British politician.
However, he spoils it whenever he talks about matters pertaining directly to the EU itself, where he invariably talks nonsense.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
Not at all. You said something that was plainly false and I called you out on it.
It is not 'plainly false', as Mr Eagle's comment shows. Farage was central and not peripheral.
And I'm calling you out on it.
It is of course false. As I explained in my response to Mr Eagles. You are desperate for to try and rationalise your failed vote and you do so by latching onto a hate figure and blaming him for your decision. As was debated last year when this came up, it is infantile to make such an important decision about the future of the country based on the fact you don't like a particular person.
Farage was not part of the official campaign, he was kept as far away as possible even though the media kept trying to drag him front and centre. If you really were silly enough to make a decision about the future of the country based on a petty dislike of a third rate individual then more fool you.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
No, he wasn't.
It comes down to a question of perspective, doesn't it - and at least you're more polite about it than Mr Tyndall. I was on the fence about the vote, and one of the things pushing me to remain was Farage and his ilk - his vision of the country was not one I wanted. Perhaps that meant I noticed him more than I should - or perhaps the opposite is the case for you.
And in response to a previous post: you cannot just take the short campaign in isolation: that was just the culmination of a multi-year campaign, to which Farage was front and centre.
Brexit is Farage's victory. Frankly I despise the guy and much of his politics, but I'll give him that much, He played a blinder.
There wouldn’t have been a referendum without him but, quite frankly, during the campaign I wished he’d kept his mouth shut and confined himself to street campaigning.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.
Ah the delusional Federast speaks again.
I just ignore him.
I enjoy taunting him. Just as he enjoys taunting Brexiteers.
Besides it gave me the chance to use that wonderful word that Mrs Thatcher coined.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
No, he wasn't.
It comes down to a question of perspective, doesn't it - and at least you're more polite about it than Mr Tyndall. I was on the fence about the vote, and one of the things pushing me to remain was Farage and his ilk - his vision of the country was not one I wanted. Perhaps that meant I noticed him more than I should - or perhaps the opposite is the case for you.
And in response to a previous post: you cannot just take the short campaign in isolation: that was just the culmination of a multi-year campaign, to which Farage was front and centre.
Brexit is Farage's victory. Frankly I despise the guy and much of his politics, but I'll give him that much, He played a blinder.
And yet I voted leave despite Farage and with a heavy heart because it was inevitably going to lead to the loss of Cameron and Osborne who I greatly admired. Many of the Leavers left me cold but I could not see an EU I wanted any part of or any prospects, after Cameron’s efforts, that it was going to get any better.
What this shows is those who claim Leavers or Remainers voted for any consistent reason are frankly delusional.
I voted and campaigned for remain. Unlike at least 99% of other remain voters, I was quite active and did what I could. Leafleting, talking to people in town centres, etc.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Well done. I also hope you saw Puigdemont's arrest in Germany under the false pretences of the European Arrest Warrant. which I view as a fundamental denial of the basic human right of the right to protest. The Spanish government and the EU through their support for them have shown that they are a tyranny. I expect the tensions in Catalonia to ramp up much further in the months ahead.
It should be noted in fairness to the EU that one of the few political figures who has consistently condemned Spain's appalling behaviour is Guy Verhofstadt.
Eh?! Are you being ironic?
Um No. Verhofstadt was very clear and forceful in his condemnation of the Spanish Government's handling of the referendum. There were a very few others but his was by far the loudest and most welcome voice.
Can you link to that 'clear and forceful' condemnation please?
A quick google produces mealy mouthed equivocation and assertions that Catalan politicians deceived & manipulated voters with their 'fixed' referendum while failing to try and find genuine dialogue and compromise with those lovely PP fellows.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
What liberal case for Leave? Vote Leave campaigned on xenophobic lies. You are deluding yourself.
Ah the delusional Federast speaks again.
I just ignore him.
I enjoy taunting him. Just as he enjoys taunting Brexiteers.
Besides it gave me the chance to use that wonderful word that Mrs Thatcher coined.
ITV. Well and trully thumped in the anthems - GSTQ really is an utter dirge.
Agreed.
The only time I really enjoy singing GSTQ is when we play Australia and we rework the lyrics to
'God Save Your Queen'
GSTQ should not be the English anthem, as you say it is absurd that the English anthem is GSTQ when England plays Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Wales or NI at rugby, cricket or football as it is also their opponents anthem too.
GSTQ should only be played in the presence of the Queen or a member of the royal family and the more stirring Jerusalem should be the England anthem as it is at the Commonwealth Games. We should also get someone to compose a UK anthem too for Team GB and NI at the Olympics.
GSTQ is the UK Anthem. It isn’t the Welsh, nor the Scots, and Australia and New Zealand have their own now too. Advance Australia Fair is pretty good, as is God defend New Zealand, although there’s too much about God. Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau makes the hair on my neck rise!
Well if it is the UK anthem it certainly should not be the English anthem, though given Australia and New Zealand have the Queen as their monarch too it should not really be the UK anthem either.
As you say every country where the Queen is monarch has its own anthem and so should England. GSTQ should revert to being a royal anthem played in the presence of the monarch, rsther like 'Heil to the Chief' in the US when the President is present
Blame the media not the Leave campaign who tried to shut him out. And I would certainly say he drove more people away from voting leave than he attracted. There are people on here who have said that it was the fact that Farage was in favour of Leave that made them decide to vote Remain. Indeed I remember a long discussion last year about how daft it was to vote for or against something of such importance simply because of someone you did or did not like.
Farage won the campaign to have a referendum. If he had been anywhere near the official face of the campaign for Brexit we would have lost.
We should be eternally grateful to the Electoral Commission for choosing in favour of Vote Leave.
Yes; I do believe it is entirely legitimate to consider as one of the factors in a decision the people who are supporting or opposing it.
It is silly to base one's decision about something important just on those people, but the fact of their support is information.
If you disliked Mr Farage sufficiently, that would be good reason to examine your support for Brexit carefully; but not enough to change your mind if you'd reached that position on solid grounds.
For myself, in the end, there was so much disinformation & mud-slinging that I more or less ignored it all & went by gut feeling.
It is of course false. As I explained in my response to Mr Eagles. You are desperate for to try and rationalise your failed vote and you do so by latching onto a hate figure and blaming him for your decision. As was debated last year when this came up, it is infantile to make such an important decision about the future of the country based on the fact you don't like a particular person.
Farage was not part of the official campaign, he was kept as far away as possible even though the media kept trying to drag him front and centre. If you really were silly enough to make a decision about the future of the country based on a petty dislike of a third rate individual then more fool you.
Oh, come off it. It was not 'my failed vote'. I'm not 'latching onto a hate figure', and least of all am I 'blaming him for (my) decision'.
In fact I said before the referendum that I wanted one, and afterwards I've said I don't regret having had one (though we've argued about the timing thereof before).
Many factors affected my vote: in fact, it's probably the hardest political decision I've had to make. Farage was just one factor pushing me towards remain, amongst several; as an example, the concern about the EU's direction was one towards leave. And you'll find plenty of posts where I say as much from the time.
ITV. Well and trully thumped in the anthems - GSTQ really is an utter dirge.
Agreed.
The only time I really enjoy singing GSTQ is when we play Australia and we rework the lyrics to
'God Save Your Queen'
GSTQ should not be the English anthem, as you say it is absurd that the English anthem is GSTQ when England plays Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Wales or NI at rugby, cricket or football as it is also their opponents anthem too.
GSTQ should only be played in the presence of the Queen or a member of the royal family and the more stirring Jerusalem should be the England anthem as it is at the Commonwealth Games. We should also get someone to compose a UK anthem too for Team GB and NI at the Olympics.
GSTQ is the UK Anthem. It isn’t the Welsh, nor the Scots, and Australia and New Zealand have their own now too. Advance Australia Fair is pretty good, as is God defend New Zealand, although there’s too much about God. Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau makes the hair on my neck rise!
Well if it is the UK anthem it certainly should not be the English anthem, though given Australia and New Zealand have the Queen as their monarch too it should not really be the UK anthem either.
As you say every country where the Queen is monarch has its own anthem and so should England. GSTQ should revert to being a royal anthem played in the presence of the monarch, rsther like 'Heil to the Chief' in the US when the President is present
I believe GSTQ is the Royal Anthem in at least some of the Commonwealth realms, and is played at the arrival of the local Governor-General.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
No, he wasn't.
It comes down to a question of perspective, doesn't it - and at least you're more polite about it than Mr Tyndall. I was on the fence about the vote, and one of the things pushing me to remain was Farage and his ilk - his vision of the country was not one I wanted. Perhaps that meant I noticed him more than I should - or perhaps the opposite is the case for you.
And in response to a previous post: you cannot just take the short campaign in isolation: that was just the culmination of a multi-year campaign, to which Farage was front and centre.
Brexit is Farage's victory. Frankly I despise the guy and much of his politics, but I'll give him that much, He played a blinder.
And yet I voted leave despite Farage and with a heavy heart because it was inevitably going to lead to the loss of Cameron and Osborne who I greatly admired. Many of the Leavers left me cold but I could not see an EU I wanted any part of or any prospects, after Cameron’s efforts, that it was going to get any better.
What this shows is those who claim Leavers or Remainers voted for any consistent reason are frankly delusional.
Yes, and I could easily have voted the same way, for much of the same reasons. In the end my balance came down on the other side. Despite what Mr Tyndall seems to think, it wasn't an easy choice, and neither am I permanently wedded to my vote.
Farage was not peripheral. 20-25% of the voters agreed with him. If we had PR, he'd be a major player.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
No one would deny that Farage was instrumental in getting a Referendum. But long before we actually got to campaign or vote he had become a complete irrelevance and was far more likely to turn people against Brexit than draw them in. Everyone who was serious about Leave winning knew he was a liability and did everything they could to make sure he was marginalised.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
Gove was the decisive figure. He brought Cummings, and brought out Johnson, and, together, allowed a liberal case to be made for Leave.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
Having two campaigns was actually positive, it allowed farage to dog whistle while giving liberal leavers cover that he wasn't the official campaign. For me Jo Cox was a big turning point, without that 57/43 nailed on. The polls were all moving to leave until that event.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
Not at all. You said something that was plainly false and I called you out on it.
It is not 'plainly false', as Mr Eagle's comment shows. Farage was central and not peripheral.
And I'm calling you out on it.
It is of course false. As I explained in my response to Mr Eagles. You are desperate for to try and rationalise your failed vote and you do so by latching onto a hate figure and blaming him for your decision. As was debated last year when this came up, it is infantile to make such an important decision about the future of the country based on the fact you don't like a particular person.
Farage was not part of the official campaign, he was kept as far away as possible even though the media kept trying to drag him front and centre. If you really were silly enough to make a decision about the future of the country based on a petty dislike of a third rate individual then more fool you.
Your certainty that leave voters are all as morally pure as yourself is touching, but delusional.
Can you link to that 'clear and forceful' condemnation please?
A quick google produces mealy mouthed equivocation and assertions that Catalan politicians deceived & manipulated voters with their 'fixed' referendum while failing to try and find genuine dialogue and compromise with those lovely PP fellows.
No. He was the campaign. Which is one of the biggest issues I had with leave.
Utter rubbish. You just want it to be so because it gives you something to blame for your defeat. Sad and desperate behaviour from the Remoaners.
Oh, you silly sausage. I am not a 'remoaner', and it was not 'my' defeat. I want the country to be a success, and am content to see Brexit succeed - indeed, only a fool would want it to be a failure now it's going ahead.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
I don't wish you to lose your voice. I just wish you to actually say something sensible with it.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
Really? We were having a perfectly sane and polite conversation the other day, including when I asked you for information. It seems you go off on one when I dare to say something you disagree with.
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
Not at all. You said something that was plainly false and I called you out on it.
It is not 'plainly false', as Mr Eagle's comment shows. Farage was central and not peripheral.
And I'm calling you out on it.
It is of course false. As I explained in my response to Mr Eagles. You are desperate for to try and rationalise your failed vote and you do so by latching onto a hate figure and blaming him for your decision. As was debated last year when this came up, it is infantile to make such an important decision about the future of the country based on the fact you don't like a particular person.
Farage was not part of the official campaign, he was kept as far away as possible even though the media kept trying to drag him front and centre. If you really were silly enough to make a decision about the future of the country based on a petty dislike of a third rate individual then more fool you.
Your certainty that leave voters are all as morally pure as yourself is touching, but delusional.
Richard is very special. He wasn’t taken in by the simplistic immigration argument that @HYUFD constantly tells us is the reason people voted to Leave.
Comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_West_Surrey_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
May got 64.8% in Maidenhead in 2017, though her highest voteshare was 65.8% in 2015.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Cameron got 60.2% in Witney in 2015, also his highest voteshare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witney_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
The only time I really enjoy singing GSTQ is when we play Australia and we rework the lyrics to
'God Save Your Queen'
Personally I thought there were good and sound reasons to say there should not be another one so soon, but after a GE was called when we had started the clock ticking on A50, I think that is a tougher argument.
GSTQ should only be played in the presence of the Queen or a member of the royal family and the more stirring Jerusalem should be the England anthem as it is at the Commonwealth Games. We should also get someone to compose a UK anthem too for Team GB and NI at the Olympics.
She was one of the three he pinpointed as potential successors to him:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32022484
(And not me in Baklava, which I once mistyped. That would be a very different type of 'vision').
Less embarrassing for you to believe he was peripheral.
Jeremy Hunt is 22/1 to be next PM with William Hill and 16/1 to be next Con leader with (Ladbrokes, PP, Coral, and Betfred.)
Both still look value in my eye.
https://tinyurl.com/y7sfu8he
Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau makes the hair on my neck rise!
Yesterday the Stabdards headline was “the Brexit criminal” above an article about Cummings. Today they have an article about him headlined “The Vote Leave money launderer”
In how th cases the headlines are in quotes - I assume they are accurate - and the articles are much more balanced
But given that most people would just st remember the headline aren’t they getting awfully close to libel?
Are they really suggesting that going £300,000 over the allowed limit swayed the result? Talk about hyperbole
https://i1.wp.com/order-order.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/PA.jpg
which does't even include the cost of HMG's pamphlet.
https://tinyurl.com/ybczcojn
Just a shame the Guardian and Observer hasn't invested 1 per cent of the time it has spend on the leave campaigns on looking at the remain side who spent 50 per cent more money and that excludes the £9m on the government leaflet which went to every home. But why would they as they promote the anti Brexit cause every day with little balance at all.
Are we for example suggesting the various remain supporting entities weren't coordinating - all the main political parties in parliament backed remain as did almost every major business body, the TUC and many huge firms and banks.
Frankly I doubt there has been an election in recent years where one or more parties haven't incurred some infringement of some sort. Are we going to rerun every election just in case? Even the Lib Dems caught out and got fined.
I certainly think a review of the system is needed but not frankly a one sided witch hunt from people and papers who are still bitter about the result and still cannot accept it 21 months on.
But, he could not have won the EU Referendum unless people who disagree with him on many things, agreed with him about the EU.
Boris gave the cover of acceptability to vote Leave for many who could not bear Farage.
On reflection, I don't think the leave campaign was 'xenophobic'. The criticisms of the EU's approach to asylum were all rooted in facts. Germany was imposing its own view on mass immigration on other countries. People didn't agree with it, and they had no way of expressing that through the 'democratic' structures of the EU.
I also concede that, on reflection, the leave campaign had a point about Turkey. On the one hand, Cameron was saying 'safer in the EU, stronger IN. World war 3 will start if we leave', and we were all just expected to accept these points, on his authority as PM. On the other hand, the EU had invited a muslim country which has subsequently become an Islamist dictatorship which borders Iraq and Syria in to an accession process, with the purpose of fully integrating them in to the EU. Yet people clearly didn't want this, and had no way of doing anything about it.
Leaving aside my personal views on these two issues, both of these points draw attention to massive democratic failings in the structure of the EU itself, which are so fundamental that it seems unlikely to survive without massive reform, which it shows no inclination to undertake.
The more I think about this, the more I am coming around to the view that leaving was actually the right decision.
Once we are out, we will be staying out. Admittedly, without major reform it seems likely the EU will tear itself to pieces very soon and there would be nothing to rejoin, but that's a side issue.
"Election anoraks can spend hours with this"
"Sunil masturbated, gently."
Farage appeared in one TV debate, and a few televised Q&As, but otherwise his activity was confined to street campaigning in Northern towns, a few PR stunts, and making jibes at the official Leave campaign.
I agree that Aaron Banks' Leave.EU campaign online was fairly effective.
That does not mean I cannot criticise things as I see fit. People on the 'losing' side do not have to lose their voice, however much you may wish them to.
The most important decision in the whole campaign was the one that awarded official Status to Vote Leave rather than Leave.eu. If that decision had gone the other way Remain would have won. I am not sure how easily, but they would have won.
Of course the Remoaners want Farage to have been important, just like the TV stations did because he is such a divisive figure. It just shows how desperate they have become.
You seem to be incapable of that at the moment.
Without him the middle-class Leavers and moderates centrists who plumped for Leave wouldn't have been won over, and Leave would have been left with the usual suspects.
On the other hand, I still think Leave would have won by a bigger margin (perhaps 56/57% to 43/44%) had the two campaigns not been fighting each other until almost the final week, and if Vote Leave itself had been better organised.
Who one day got stuck in his garage
He campaigned so hard
But let down his guard
And fell to an electoral barrage
And in response to a previous post: you cannot just take the short campaign in isolation: that was just the culmination of a multi-year campaign, to which Farage was front and centre.
Brexit is Farage's victory. Frankly I despise the guy and much of his politics, but I'll give him that much, He played a blinder.
Featured more than Michael Gove and Jeremy Corbyn.
https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-referendum/uk-news-coverage-2016-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/
I mean, read back this conversation. My 'crime' was to say something you disagreed with, and suddenly you explode in invective against me.
I'd suggest that's your issue to sort out, not mine.
(In light of the bad-temepered nature of this thread, I should stress that is intended as a joke!)
WRT to the European Arrest Warrant in this case, can it be argued it is invalid as the Spanish constitution is itself illegal - that is, it breaches the right of self-determination enshrined in international law?
I will only be on the 'losing' side if Brexit fails the country. As will all of us, leaver or remainer.
Too many posters - both remain and leave - are fighting a battle that is utterly harmful to the country.
https://twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/978686403973468160
Are you being ironic?
Farage won the campaign to have a referendum. If he had been anywhere near the official face of the campaign for Brexit we would have lost.
We should be eternally grateful to the Electoral Commission for choosing in favour of Vote Leave.
And I'm calling you out on it.
However, he spoils it whenever he talks about matters pertaining directly to the EU itself, where he invariably talks nonsense.
Farage was not part of the official campaign, he was kept as far away as possible even though the media kept trying to drag him front and centre. If you really were silly enough to make a decision about the future of the country based on a petty dislike of a third rate individual then more fool you.
Besides it gave me the chance to use that wonderful word that Mrs Thatcher coined.
What this shows is those who claim Leavers or Remainers voted for any consistent reason are frankly delusional.
A quick google produces mealy mouthed equivocation and assertions that Catalan politicians deceived & manipulated voters with their 'fixed' referendum while failing to try and find genuine dialogue and compromise with those lovely PP fellows.
As you say every country where the Queen is monarch has its own anthem and so should England. GSTQ should revert to being a royal anthem played in the presence of the monarch, rsther like 'Heil to the Chief' in the US when the President is present
It is silly to base one's decision about something important just on those people, but the fact of their support is information.
If you disliked Mr Farage sufficiently, that would be good reason to examine your support for Brexit carefully; but not enough to change your mind if you'd reached that position on solid grounds.
For myself, in the end, there was so much disinformation & mud-slinging that I more or less ignored it all & went by gut feeling.
In fact I said before the referendum that I wanted one, and afterwards I've said I don't regret having had one (though we've argued about the timing thereof before).
Many factors affected my vote: in fact, it's probably the hardest political decision I've had to make. Farage was just one factor pushing me towards remain, amongst several; as an example, the concern about the EU's direction was one towards leave. And you'll find plenty of posts where I say as much from the time.
You are being very silly.
I thought you were your own man.
There were also a number of tweets at the time.