Oh dear, go away for a couple of days to find everyone is still talking about antisemitism among Corbyn’s friends. What was it that Alistair Campbell said about needing to kill a story quickly? The problem is they can’t kill it because Jeremy doesn’t understand he’s done something wrong and needs to apologise. Getting a Corbynite shadow Jewish group to protest an antisemitism protest was a pretty stupid thing to do.
Oh dear, go away for a couple of days to find everyone is still talking about antisemitism among Corbyn’s friends. What was it that Alistair Campbell said about needing to kill a story quickly? The problem is they can’t kill it because Jeremy doesn’t understand he’s done something wrong and needs to apologise. Getting a Corbynite shadow Jewish group to protest an antisemitism protest was a pretty stupid thing to do.
On the positive side, one year until Brexit day!
David Warner is also doing a cracking job of apologizing for being a massive cheater...not...
And England has permanent interests in a stable and secure European neighbourhood, starting with the British Isles. The USA's interests in the transatlantic relationship are more contingent.
The UK is in a very difficult position with an overweening hostile EU lording it from Berlin over most of the European continent. It really needed to keep Russia on side. I'm uncertain as to who decided to scupper this option, but the toxin on the door of Mr Skripal's home might have come from Porton Down (only 8 miles away) rather than directly from Russia.
Dear god
The 'it's 8 miles away' line is conspiracy theorising of the highest order. That would mean it was a false flag operation, and if we're to assume that, and to assume we wouldn't fake using the agent, and all the other highly unlikely assumptions, why wouldn't we do it when he was further from home so people couldn't go 'it's only 8 miles away'?
Surely what most sane people want is peace in the Middle East, and the only way to get to that is to criticise wrong-doing wherever it occurs, and to praise people and organisations when they do things right.
On the contrary, to get to peace - you often have to sacrifice justice.
Indeed. But you have to make it clear that the injustice is acknowledged. The Truth and Reconciliation process in SA is a classic example.
Sacrificing justice by ignoring it is the wrong approach, for self-evident reasons.
Oh dear, go away for a couple of days to find everyone is still talking about antisemitism among Corbyn’s friends. What was it that Alistair Campbell said about needing to kill a story quickly? The problem is they can’t kill it because Jeremy doesn’t understand he’s done something wrong and needs to apologise. Getting a Corbynite shadow Jewish group to protest an antisemitism protest was a pretty stupid thing to do.
On the positive side, one year until Brexit day!
David Warner is also doing a cracking job of apologizing for being a massive cheater...not...
He clearly takes his lessons on apologising from Corbyn.
Fair play to Cricket Australia for dishing out a proper punishment to the cheats, no less than they deserve
The Israelis are far more powerful in every way than the Palestinians and have much more responsibility for the situation as a result. This isn't an equal situation and any evaluation of it should take that into account. The simple fact is that Israel has been ignoring international law in an increasingly brazen fashion in recent years with barely a whisper from our government, or the war-infatuated segment of the PLP. Corbyn is in the firing line because he is the first potential PM in virtually forever to question this cosy, symbiotic accommodation of a violent, corrupt, racist settler state, and for no other reason.
Israel is the only fully functioning democracy in the Middle East, the only one with full freedom.of religion and freedom to express your sexuality and has the highest GDP per capita of any Middle Eastern nation beyond those who already had vast amounts of oil. There is a reason most Western democracies to not want to see Israel driven into the sea though I can see why the authoritarian hard Left may want it to be driven into the sea indeed Israel has already fought two wars against its neighbours to ensure its survival
Israel isn't a fully functioning democracy. Several million people have been ruled over by the Israeli government for decades without any vote beyond the provincial level. And often have their homes demolished as a result.
Israel has Arab voters even Arab MPs, the same cannot be said for the small minority of Jews in the rest of the Middle East
Mr. Jezziah, I do feel sorry for the Palestinian people. The Israeli policy of encircling Jerusalem with settlements appears destined to make peace almost impossible. That does not, however, excuse Hamas' penchant for throwing homosexuals and political rivals off rooftops, and their denial of the right of the state of Israel to exist is no less a problem.
Corbyn's only described one side as his friends.
My friend told me the other day that Jamaica has life imprisonment for gay people (which I didn't double check for myself). Whilst I don't want to excuse their treatment of gay people it is hardly out of the norm for such a backwards failed state to treat gay people terribly and to be honest is something that really isn't likely to improve until the conditions of the Palestinian people improve.
As much as Hamas for example have terrible rhetoric about destroying Israel, Israel are actually destroying the Palestinian state. That is why I feel it is all well and good condemning both sides but one side is actually making peace impossible, yes some of the people in charge of the failed state are a bunch of crazy terrorists...
That is probably what we should expect from a state in Palestine's situation. We refused at times to deal with the Arafat because he was too extreme, so now we have Hamas. Are we going to roll the dice on that one again and find out the Palestinian people aren't getting friendlier the longer things go on and the worse things get?
Oh dear, go away for a couple of days to find everyone is still talking about antisemitism among Corbyn’s friends. What was it that Alistair Campbell said about needing to kill a story quickly? The problem is they can’t kill it because Jeremy doesn’t understand he’s done something wrong and needs to apologise. Getting a Corbynite shadow Jewish group to protest an antisemitism protest was a pretty stupid thing to do.
On the positive side, one year until Brexit day!
David Warner is also doing a cracking job of apologizing for being a massive cheater...not...
He clearly takes his lessons on apologising from Corbyn.
Fair play to Cricket Australia for dishing out a proper punishment to the cheats, no less than they deserve
I would agree, but then I heard a load of BS about the players involved need to be protected because their mental health is suffering, the bowlers knew nothing, yadda yadda yadda.
From a Labour POV, or at least from mine, I'm relatively happy to stay close to the Conservatives in the polls for the time being.
After several good weeks for Labour in which the Tory vote barely shifted we've had a good couple of weeks for the Tories in which Labours vote has barely shifted. Which is partially why I think the idea of Labour having a new leader and surging ahead 15-20 points in the polls in unrealistic.
If the polls look something like they have done over the past couple of months just before we get into the election campaigning period I'll be fairly optimistic about Labours chances. There won't be the same kind of swings we saw in the last campaign but with a strong campaign, which isn't an unrealistic expectation of Labour, we could advance enough to take it.
A big part of the next election will probably be decided on how many voters each party holds onto from the last election.
I'd rather be close in the polls, too. The idea that your boy might win will be a powerful motivator to moderates and Tories alike
Moderates see a choice between two sets of nutjobs. The Conservatives have spent the last 18 months telling them that they are traitors and saboteurs. Good luck in seeking their votes.
The median voter supported Leave.
The median voter is a 42 year old LibDem.
EDIT that should be mode
The mode voter is a 42 year old Leave voting LD, if you can ever find them!
What? The whole point of the mode, is that there are more real life examples of it, than there are of anything else.
The median then which was what it was before he changed it, the mode presumably would be a Leave voting Tory
I don't think the vicinity to Porton Down is entirely casual, but to then jump to the conclusion that the agent must have come from there, as if modern transportation didn't exist, is simplistic.
That's my favourite bit of the "Russia didn't do it" theory.
When Skripal was looking for a house, his first choice was "as close as possible to the UK nerve agent stockpile"...
From a Labour POV, or at least from mine, I'm relatively happy to stay close to the Conservatives in the polls for the time being.
After several good weeks for Labour in which the Tory vote barely shifted we've had a good couple of weeks for the Tories in which Labours vote has barely shifted. Which is partially why I think the idea of Labour having a new leader and surging ahead 15-20 points in the polls in unrealistic.
If the polls look something like they have done over the past couple of months just before we get into the election campaigning period I'll be fairly optimistic about Labours chances. There won't be the same kind of swings we saw in the last campaign but with a strong campaign, which isn't an unrealistic expectation of Labour, we could advance enough to take it.
A big part of the next election will probably be decided on how many voters each party holds onto from the last election.
I'd rather be close in the polls, too. The idea that your boy might win will be a powerful motivator to moderates and Tories alike
Moderates see a choice between two sets of nutjobs. The Conservatives have spent the last 18 months telling them that they are traitors and saboteurs. Good luck in seeking their votes.
The median voter supported Leave.
The median voter is a 42 year old LibDem.
EDIT that should be mode
The mode voter is a 42 year old Leave voting LD, if you can ever find them!
What? The whole point of the mode, is that there are more real life examples of it, than there are of anything else.
The median then which was what it was before he changed it, the mode presumably would be a Leave voting Tory
There is no median in this context. You need an array of three numbers, minimum, to have one.
Mr. Jezziah, I do feel sorry for the Palestinian people. The Israeli policy of encircling Jerusalem with settlements appears destined to make peace almost impossible. That does not, however, excuse Hamas' penchant for throwing homosexuals and political rivals off rooftops, and their denial of the right of the state of Israel to exist is no less a problem.
Corbyn's only described one side as his friends.
The settlement building programme is not just immoral but stupid. Land-grabbing for its own sake usually turns out badly for those who do it.
The UK's interest is to be in the EU, as a rule based multilateral organisation promoting free trade amongst its members. You can argue the UK's interest is to leave the UK because a small majority of low information voters chose that option in a referendum but I think that's different. Other nations have their voters to appease too.
And if that’s all it was it would have been great. But the EU wanted to develop in another direction which wasn’t a good fit for us
That's a valid point of view, but not one that is widely shared amongst diplomats and trade specialists, not least because what I think you want isn't available to us. But I would make a practical distinction between national interests and what electorates vote for. As an extreme Godwin example, the people of Germany voted in a referendums to militarily occupy the Rhineland, leave the League of Nations and to make Hitler a dictator. Were they really in the German national interest?
To overturn the largest democratic vote in this country's history because you didn’t like the result would have worse consequences.
Once DC started down this route we needed see it through. Anything else would have been against the national interest
Agreed. We have a tension. That's normal. We have to respect the vote even though the vote was for a course of action detrimental to the interests of the UK. How do you reconcile that contradiction? You can't entirely. As far as possible you retain or reproduce the circumstances of membership while not formally being a member. The risk is you end up with an outcome that satisfies no-one. Bear in mind it's in the EU's interest for the outcome to be unsatisfactory to us, even though they want things from us too. At best everyone is equally unsatisfied. Boredom with the whole issue is BINO's friend.
Mr. Jezziah, a deal was on the table for Arafat. He rejected it.
Of course, when he died we learnt his personal wealth exceeded Palestinian GDP, so it may be that his primary goal in life was his bank balance.
Things are extremely difficult for the Palestinian people. The way to improve things is to try and get peace talks going and to reduce tension with Israel. Doing that when the people in charge of Gaza deny the right of Israel to exist seems impossible.
Oh dear, go away for a couple of days to find everyone is still talking about antisemitism among Corbyn’s friends. What was it that Alistair Campbell said about needing to kill a story quickly? The problem is they can’t kill it because Jeremy doesn’t understand he’s done something wrong and needs to apologise. Getting a Corbynite shadow Jewish group to protest an antisemitism protest was a pretty stupid thing to do.
On the positive side, one year until Brexit day!
David Warner is also doing a cracking job of apologizing for being a massive cheater...not...
He clearly takes his lessons on apologising from Corbyn.
Fair play to Cricket Australia for dishing out a proper punishment to the cheats, no less than they deserve
I would agree, but then I heard a load of BS about the players involved need to be protected because their mental health is suffering, the bowlers knew nothing, yadda yadda yadda.
Of course the bowlers knew what was going on, unless they thought the ball magically went rough on one side and smooth on the other all by itself. Doesn’t necessarily mean they were involved in what happened, but there was certainly more of a conspiracy than just three players - and it’s unlikely to be the first time they’ve done it either.
Mr. Jezziah, a deal was on the table for Arafat. He rejected it.
Of course, when he died we learnt his personal wealth exceeded Palestinian GDP, so it may be that his primary goal in life was his bank balance.
Things are extremely difficult for the Palestinian people. The way to improve things is to try and get peace talks going and to reduce tension with Israel. Doing that when the people in charge of Gaza deny the right of Israel to exist seems impossible.
The people in Gaza won control after the Israelis forced Fatah to conpromise and compromise and then didn't accept.
From a Labour POV, or at least from mine, I'm relatively happy to stay close to the Conservatives in the polls for the time being.
After several good weeks for Labour in which the Tory vote barely shifted we've had a good couple of weeks for the Tories in which Labours vote has barely shifted. Which is partially why I think the idea of Labour having a new leader and surging ahead 15-20 points in the polls in unrealistic.
If the polls look something like they have done over the past couple of months just before we get into the election campaigning period I'll be fairly optimistic about Labours chances. There won't be the same kind of swings we saw in the last campaign but with a strong campaign, which isn't an unrealistic expectation of Labour, we could advance enough to take it.
A big part of the next election will probably be decided on how many voters each party holds onto from the last election.
I'd rather be close in the polls, too. The idea that your boy might win will be a powerful motivator to moderates and Tories alike
Moderates see a choice between two sets of nutjobs. The Conservatives have spent the last 18 months telling them that they are traitors and saboteurs. Good luck in seeking their votes.
The median voter supported Leave.
The median voter is a 42 year old LibDem.
EDIT that should be mode
The mode voter is a 42 year old Leave voting LD, if you can ever find them!
What? The whole point of the mode, is that there are more real life examples of it, than there are of anything else.
The median then which was what it was before he changed it, the mode presumably would be a Leave voting Tory
There is no median in this context. You need an array of three numbers, minimum, to have one.
Vote Leave Vote Remain Don't vote.
The mode was Vote Leave (unusually - normally it's DNV).
The Israelis are far more powerful in every way than the Palestinians and have much more responsibility for the situation as a result. This isn't an equal situation and any evaluation of it should take that into account. The simple fact is that Israel has been ignoring international law in an increasingly brazen fashion in recent years with barely a whisper from our government, or the war-infatuated segment of the PLP. Corbyn is in the firing line because he is the first potential PM in virtually forever to question this cosy, symbiotic accommodation of a violent, corrupt, racist settler state, and for no other reason.
Israel is the only fully functioning democracy in the Middle East, the only one with full freedom.of religion and freedom to express your sexuality and has the highest GDP per capita of any Middle Eastern nation beyond those who already had vast amounts of oil. There is a reason most Western democracies to not want to see Israel driven into the sea though I can see why the authoritarian hard Left may want it to be driven into the sea indeed Israel has already fought two wars against its neighbours to ensure its survival
Israel isn't a fully functioning democracy. Several million people have been ruled over by the Israeli government for decades without any vote beyond the provincial level. And often have their homes demolished as a result.
Israel has Arab voters even Arab MPs, the same cannot be said for the small minority of Jews in the rest of the Middle East
Yes, it has a tiny handful of them as a helpful fig leaf to cover up the fact the vast majority of Arabs in their de facto borders are disenfranchised as second tier subjects. That other countries are worse does not make Israel a fully functioning democracy.
I actually think Salisbury is pretty big and that Corbyn's response makes him completely unfit to be PM. But that is obviously a sectional minority view.
What we are seeing, I think, is 2 blocks sustained by a very strong dislike of the other. Supporters on both sides may wince from time to time at their own sides incompetence but the priority will always be to stop the other. Its not particularly healthy.
Whilst there are big chunks like that on both sides I did hear of a poll, think it was mentioned on a podcast I listened to so I'm not sure for a link, that put both parties at close to 70% in terms of their vote being a positive vote for the party with only low 20's% vote being against the other party. I think Labour might have been just slightly higher on both scores but similar figures for both parties.
Which still translates into millions of votes but I suspect those feelings have been around for a while. Although there might be a bit more dislike or things have just got more passionate in general the last few years, Scottish referendum, EU referendum etc.
In a funny way I think both comments are right. There are a LOT of partisans out there who really like what they feel their party stands for and are very loyal to it: it's what makes the polls pretty immobile. That doesn't stop them wincing when prominent figures in it are seen to cock up. The normal process is first to blame the BBC/media (whose collective glee at any misstep is a powerful laager reinforcement), then when it proves incontrovertible roll your eyes and say we all cock up someimes. It takes a great deal to actually think of changing to the other side, though demoralised voters just stay at home.
Yeah a big part of the next election will be bringing out your own voters. I think in terms of mistakes I suppose it can depend on what exactly they are but for a lot of people it is much more a general idea of what the party is for, it is usually easy enough, if you wish to do so, to match mistakes from your own side with mistakes from the other. I think most people wouldn't go much further than voting for not rival parties or abstaining unless the mistake was really catastrophic.
I think part of the problem is they already have democracy (to a certain extent, they have voted twice I think in the last 15 or so years) but it is a foreign state attacking them, if they were one state a democratic solution would be simpler. Although that probably won't happen for obvious reasons.
From a Labour POV, or at least from mine, I'm relatively happy to stay close to the Conservatives in the polls for the time being.
After several good weeks for Labour in which the Tory vote barely shifted we've had a good couple of weeks for the Tories in which Labours vote has barely shifted. Which is partially why I think the idea of Labour having a new leader and surging ahead 15-20 points in the polls in unrealistic.
If the polls look something like they have done over the past couple of months just before we get into the election campaigning period I'll be fairly optimistic about Labours chances. There won't be the same kind of swings we saw in the last campaign but with a strong campaign, which isn't an unrealistic expectation of Labour, we could advance enough to take it.
A big part of the next election will probably be decided on how many voters each party holds onto from the last election.
I'd rather be close in the polls, too. The idea that your boy might win will be a powerful motivator to moderates and Tories alike
Moderates see a choice between two sets of nutjobs. The Conservatives have spent the last 18 months telling them that they are traitors and saboteurs. Good luck in seeking their votes.
The median voter supported Leave.
Yes, but only just. The median voter in terms of the EURef would be someone 1.9% into the Leave vote from the least Leavy end: it'd be someone who: - wavered for a long time before deciding, or had little understanding, or - interest in the issues at all and could have been persuaded the other way had they engaged, or - was genuinely in favour of a model where Britain was out legally but remained extremely closely engaged.
Oh dear, go away for a couple of days to find everyone is still talking about antisemitism among Corbyn’s friends. What was it that Alistair Campbell said about needing to kill a story quickly? The problem is they can’t kill it because Jeremy doesn’t understand he’s done something wrong and needs to apologise. Getting a Corbynite shadow Jewish group to protest an antisemitism protest was a pretty stupid thing to do.
On the positive side, one year until Brexit day!
David Warner is also doing a cracking job of apologizing for being a massive cheater...not...
He clearly takes his lessons on apologising from Corbyn.
Fair play to Cricket Australia for dishing out a proper punishment to the cheats, no less than they deserve
I would agree, but then I heard a load of BS about the players involved need to be protected because their mental health is suffering, the bowlers knew nothing, yadda yadda yadda.
Of course the bowlers knew what was going on, unless they thought the ball magically went rough on one side and smooth on the other all by itself. Doesn’t necessarily mean they were involved in what happened, but there was certainly more of a conspiracy than just three players - and it’s unlikely to be the first time they’ve done it either.
At best they did what Smith did and said don't tell me, I don't want to know....but my experience of playing at a level with bowlers who have played test cricket, any change in the ball and they immediately want to know what is going on and get very unhappy if their precious isn't being looked after.
Surely what most sane people want is peace in the Middle East, and the only way to get to that is to criticise wrong-doing wherever it occurs, and to praise people and organisations when they do things right.
On the contrary, to get to peace - you often have to sacrifice justice.
Mr. Jezziah, I do feel sorry for the Palestinian people. The Israeli policy of encircling Jerusalem with settlements appears destined to make peace almost impossible. That does not, however, excuse Hamas' penchant for throwing homosexuals and political rivals off rooftops, and their denial of the right of the state of Israel to exist is no less a problem.
Corbyn's only described one side as his friends.
My friend told me the other day that Jamaica has life imprisonment for gay people (which I didn't double check for myself). Whilst I don't want to excuse their treatment of gay people it is hardly out of the norm for such a backwards failed state to treat gay people terribly and to be honest is something that really isn't likely to improve until the conditions of the Palestinian people improve.
As much as Hamas for example have terrible rhetoric about destroying Israel, Israel are actually destroying the Palestinian state. That is why I feel it is all well and good condemning both sides but one side is actually making peace impossible, yes some of the people in charge of the failed state are a bunch of crazy terrorists...
That is probably what we should expect from a state in Palestine's situation. We refused at times to deal with the Arafat because he was too extreme, so now we have Hamas. Are we going to roll the dice on that one again and find out the Palestinian people aren't getting friendlier the longer things go on and the worse things get?
"Push the Jews into the sea" genocidal thinking was the belief back when the Arabs were the dominant power and everyone thought they would defeat Israel. It can not be blamed on oppression.
Incidentally, your point about ethnicity/religion can be flipped. Israel is not the only country occupying its neighbours for decades. Would the Western Saharans get a bit more attention if Moroccans were a little more Jewish?
I hope we don’t talk about the Holy Land all day, but here’s my two pennorth:
It’s not surprising that Israel doesn’t trust the Palestinians or other Arab states. They opposed the division of Palestine in the first place, Israel’s Arab neighbours tried to crush Israel at birth, they supported terrorist groups and launched a surprise attack in 1973. If any of these has succeeded, Israel would have ceased to exist, so the threat was existential. This threat is faced by a people who saw one-third of their co-religionists exterminated within living memory. Since withdrawing forces from Gaza, southern Israel has been subjected to rocket attacks.
Why on earth would such a people give up control for a promise of peace? It will take 20 years of acceptance of Israel’s right to exist for the Palestinians to get a hearing.
Surely what most sane people want is peace in the Middle East, and the only way to get to that is to criticise wrong-doing wherever it occurs, and to praise people and organisations when they do things right.
On the contrary, to get to peace - you often have to sacrifice justice.
Indeed. But you have to make it clear that the injustice is acknowledged. The Truth and Reconciliation process in SA is a classic example.
Sacrificing justice by ignoring it is the wrong approach, for self-evident reasons.
There are arguments both ways. In Northern Ireland, we took the view that to achieve peace, the victims of terrorists would just have to suck it up.
Mr. Jezziah, a deal was on the table for Arafat. He rejected it.
Of course, when he died we learnt his personal wealth exceeded Palestinian GDP, so it may be that his primary goal in life was his bank balance.
Things are extremely difficult for the Palestinian people. The way to improve things is to try and get peace talks going and to reduce tension with Israel. Doing that when the people in charge of Gaza deny the right of Israel to exist seems impossible.
Anyone would have rejected the deal, I don't know if you've ever actually checked the thing out?
Israel was serious about peace once, so extremists assassinated the president, since then there has been little progress.
Israel has for some time been working to make sure Palestine cannot possibly exist, which surely must be several orders of magnitude worse than simply just saying the other side can't exist?
I believe UK courts for example find a huge difference between a death threat and actually murdering someone.
Edit: As for the riches point I think Hamas anti-corruption policy was one of their selling points.
Oh dear, go away for a couple of days to find everyone is still talking about antisemitism among Corbyn’s friends. What was it that Alistair Campbell said about needing to kill a story quickly? The problem is they can’t kill it because Jeremy doesn’t understand he’s done something wrong and needs to apologise. Getting a Corbynite shadow Jewish group to protest an antisemitism protest was a pretty stupid thing to do.
On the positive side, one year until Brexit day!
David Warner is also doing a cracking job of apologizing for being a massive cheater...not...
He clearly takes his lessons on apologising from Corbyn.
Fair play to Cricket Australia for dishing out a proper punishment to the cheats, no less than they deserve
I would agree, but then I heard a load of BS about the players involved need to be protected because their mental health is suffering, the bowlers knew nothing, yadda yadda yadda.
Of course the bowlers knew what was going on, unless they thought the ball magically went rough on one side and smooth on the other all by itself. Doesn’t necessarily mean they were involved in what happened, but there was certainly more of a conspiracy than just three players - and it’s unlikely to be the first time they’ve done it either.
At best they did what Smith did and said don't tell me, I don't want to know....but my experience of playing at a level with bowlers who have played test cricket, any change in the ball and they immediately want to know what is going on and get very unhappy if their precious isn't being looked after.
Oh absolutely. The captain and the bowlers would be discussing what they want the ball to look like before the match and during it, even if they didn’t know the exact method used to ‘work on’ it.
Mr. Jezziah, a deal was on the table for Arafat. He rejected it.
Of course, when he died we learnt his personal wealth exceeded Palestinian GDP, so it may be that his primary goal in life was his bank balance.
Things are extremely difficult for the Palestinian people. The way to improve things is to try and get peace talks going and to reduce tension with Israel. Doing that when the people in charge of Gaza deny the right of Israel to exist seems impossible.
Anyone would have rejected the deal, I don't know if you've ever actually checked the thing out?
Israel was serious about peace once, so extremists assassinated the president, since then there has been little progress.
Israel has for some time been working to make sure Palestine cannot possibly exist, which surely must be several orders of magnitude worse than simply just saying the other side can't exist?
I believe UK courts for example find a huge difference between a death threat and actually murdering someone.
Edit: As for the riches point I think Hamas anti-corruption policy was one of their selling points.
It depends what you mean by existence. There are millions of Arabs living in Israel proper and the occupied territories.
How many Jews would live between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean if the Arab states succeeded in 1948 or 1973 or Hamas controlled Israel/Palestine?
I actually think Salisbury is pretty big and that Corbyn's response makes him completely unfit to be PM. But that is obviously a sectional minority view.
Which still translates into millions of votes but I suspect those feelings have been around for a while. Although there might be a bit more dislike or things have just got more passionate in general the last few years, Scottish referendum, EU referendum etc.
In a funny way I think both comments are right. There are a LOT of partisans out there who really like what they feel their party stands for and are very loyal to it: it's what makes the polls pretty immobile. That doesn't stop them wincing when prominent figures in it are seen to cock up. The normal process is first to blame the BBC/media (whose collective glee at any misstep is a powerful laager reinforcement), then when it proves incontrovertible roll your eyes and say we all cock up someimes. It takes a great deal to actually think of changing to the other side, though demoralised voters just stay at home.
Yeah a big part of the next election will be bringing out your own voters. I think in terms of mistakes I suppose it can depend on what exactly they are but for a lot of people it is much more a general idea of what the party is for, it is usually easy enough, if you wish to do so, to match mistakes from your own side with mistakes from the other. I think most people wouldn't go much further than voting for not rival parties or abstaining unless the mistake was really catastrophic.
I think part of the problem is they already have democracy (to a certain extent, they have voted twice I think in the last 15 or so years) but it is a foreign state attacking them, if they were one state a democratic solution would be simpler. Although that probably won't happen for obvious reasons.
I am highly doubtful a Palestinian democracy would survive for long. But I agree they need independence to create the conditions for it to emerge decades down the line. My point is that Hamas' continued commitment to theocracy, genocide and civilian targets are choices that hurt Palestinian interests. I think Fatah, post-Arafat, have actually been pretty damn good.
Mr. Jezziah, I do feel sorry for the Palestinian people. The Israeli policy of encircling Jerusalem with settlements appears destined to make peace almost impossible. That does not, however, excuse Hamas' penchant for throwing homosexuals and political rivals off rooftops, and their denial of the right of the state of Israel to exist is no less a problem.
Corbyn's only described one side as his friends.
My friend told me the other day that Jamaica has life imprisonment for gay people (which I didn't double check for myself). Whilst I don't want to excuse their treatment of gay people it is hardly out of the norm for such a backwards failed state to treat gay people terribly and to be honest is something that really isn't likely to improve until the conditions of the Palestinian people improve.
As much as Hamas for example have terrible rhetoric about destroying Israel, Israel are actually destroying the Palestinian state. That is why I feel it is all well and good condemning both sides but one side is actually making peace impossible, yes some of the people in charge of the failed state are a bunch of crazy terrorists...
That is probably what we should expect from a state in Palestine's situation. We refused at times to deal with the Arafat because he was too extreme, so now we have Hamas. Are we going to roll the dice on that one again and find out the Palestinian people aren't getting friendlier the longer things go on and the worse things get?
"Push the Jews into the sea" genocidal thinking was the belief back when the Arabs were the dominant power and everyone thought they would defeat Israel. It can not be blamed on oppression.
Incidentally, your point about ethnicity/religion can be flipped. Israel is not the only country occupying its neighbours for decades. Would the Western Saharans get a bit more attention if Moroccans were a little more Jewish?
In fairness if people came from the Middle East and tried to setup a country in Britain we would probably expect the likes of the French and so on to help us. I also imagine it might create some tensions. Think about the tensions immigration have caused in Britain, can you imagine if millions of people came here and setup a country which involved kicking British people out of their homes?
I rarely hear anyone arguing the Moroccans case to be honest, I'll leave others to speculate on why.
Mr. Jezziah, a deal was on the table for Arafat. He rejected it.
Of course, when he died we learnt his personal wealth exceeded Palestinian GDP, so it may be that his primary goal in life was his bank balance.
Things are extremely difficult for the Palestinian people. The way to improve things is to try and get peace talks going and to reduce tension with Israel. Doing that when the people in charge of Gaza deny the right of Israel to exist seems impossible.
Anyone would have rejected the deal, I don't know if you've ever actually checked the thing out?
Israel was serious about peace once, so extremists assassinated the president, since then there has been little progress.
Israel has for some time been working to make sure Palestine cannot possibly exist, which surely must be several orders of magnitude worse than simply just saying the other side can't exist?
I believe UK courts for example find a huge difference between a death threat and actually murdering someone.
Edit: As for the riches point I think Hamas anti-corruption policy was one of their selling points.
Can you point to me the Palestinians state pre 1973 that Israel took the land off? Israel is the only Jewish state there but there are lots of Arab states including Jordan who owned the land until they attacked Israel and lost.
Mr. Jezziah, a deal was on the table for Arafat. He rejected it.
Of course, when he died we learnt his personal wealth exceeded Palestinian GDP, so it may be that his primary goal in life was his bank balance.
Things are extremely difficult for the Palestinian people. The way to improve things is to try and get peace talks going and to reduce tension with Israel. Doing that when the people in charge of Gaza deny the right of Israel to exist seems impossible.
Anyone would have rejected the deal, I don't know if you've ever actually checked the thing out?
Israel was serious about peace once, so extremists assassinated the president, since then there has been little progress.
Israel has for some time been working to make sure Palestine cannot possibly exist, which surely must be several orders of magnitude worse than simply just saying the other side can't exist?
I believe UK courts for example find a huge difference between a death threat and actually murdering someone.
Edit: As for the riches point I think Hamas anti-corruption policy was one of their selling points.
It depends what you mean by existence. There are millions of Arabs living in Israel proper and the occupied territories.
How many Jews would live between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean if the Arab states succeeded in 1948 or 1973 or Hamas controlled Israel/Palestine?
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Not only attracted them, emboldened them, just like Trump and the Neo Nazis.
Imagine if these people actually go on to form the elected government. (Shudders).
The question is who is tough enough and clever enough in Labour to take them on and win the party back. The only person I can think of (and he isn't coming back) is Eddie Spheroids.
The likes of Walter the softie (Hiliary Benn) aren't going to do it.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
I hope we don’t talk about the Holy Land all day, but here’s my two pennorth:
It’s not surprising that Israel doesn’t trust the Palestinians or other Arab states. They opposed the division of Palestine in the first place, Israel’s Arab neighbours tried to crush Israel at birth, they supported terrorist groups and launched a surprise attack in 1973. If any of these has succeeded, Israel would have ceased to exist, so the threat was existential. This threat is faced by a people who saw one-third of their co-religionists exterminated within living memory. Since withdrawing forces from Gaza, southern Israel has been subjected to rocket attacks.
Why on earth would such a people give up control for a promise of peace? It will take 20 years of acceptance of Israel’s right to exist for the Palestinians to get a hearing.
It will take more than 20 years. IMHO it’s a similar situation to N Ireland where one comunity was pushed off its land because of Government policy and the ‘winners’ later ‘fixed’ the electoral system. How long is it taking to really work that through? there’s a religious dimension there, too.
Having said all that, ‘something’ had to be done for the Jewish people, especially after the Holocaust. However, the Law of Return seems to spread itself widely.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
So is Corbyn a pound shop Trump or is Trump a pound shop Corbyn?
As that poll is substantially about predicted outcomes rather than opinions, I fear it demonstrates most Leave voters don't know what they are talking about. At best Britain's economy will be minimally impacted by Brexit. There's essentially zero chance of Brexit.actually improving it. The.important thing.though is that most Leave voters believe this nonsense.and that's why they voted the way they did.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
Indeed. I meant it was incredible that the party of Blair, Brown, Wilson etc should fall to this low point.
I hope we don’t talk about the Holy Land all day, but here’s my two pennorth:
It’s not surprising that Israel doesn’t trust the Palestinians or other Arab states. They opposed the division of Palestine in the first place, Israel’s Arab neighbours tried to crush Israel at birth, they supported terrorist groups and launched a surprise attack in 1973. If any of these has succeeded, Israel would have ceased to exist, so the threat was existential. This threat is faced by a people who saw one-third of their co-religionists exterminated within living memory. Since withdrawing forces from Gaza, southern Israel has been subjected to rocket attacks.
Why on earth would such a people give up control for a promise of peace? It will take 20 years of acceptance of Israel’s right to exist for the Palestinians to get a hearing.
We’re talking about the Holy Land today because Brexit just isn’t a devicive enough subject!
I think peace will happen eventually, but will require all the peoples of the region and their leaders to moderate their words and actions, and want to live peacefully for it to come about.
We all thought peace in Northern Ireland would never come about, until the people and their leaders (of all parties) became determined to make peace happen. The question is who will be the Middle East’s John Major?
Can you point to me the Palestinians state pre 1973 that Israel took the land off? Israel is the only Jewish state there but there are lots of Arab states including Jordan who owned the land until they attacked Israel and lost.
There is/was a place called Palestine filled with people who lived on the land. It isn't a country in much the same way your home town/city or wider area isn't. However if people came and kick you out and setup a country for different people I think you might be a little annoyed. You might also expect your friends and allies in neighboring countries to come to your aid.
____________________________________ I am highly doubtful a Palestinian democracy would survive for long. But I agree they need independence to create the conditions for it to emerge decades down the line. My point is that Hamas' continued commitment to theocracy, genocide and civilian targets are choices that hurt Palestinian interests. I think Fatah, post-Arafat, have actually been pretty damn good. __________________________________
I can't see a functioning independent state being created, what they currently have probably doesn't work and I don't think there will be the will from the Israelis, especially considering the setup of their parliament, to give land back. They do still control the West Bank, unless it is a different organisation. Whilst their rhetoric is a lot friendlier I don't think they have exactly got anywhere either.
Yeah a big part of the next election will be bringing out your own voters. I think in terms of mistakes I suppose it can depend on what exactly they are but for a lot of people it is much more a general idea of what the party is for, it is usually easy enough, if you wish to do so, to match mistakes from your own side with mistakes from the other. I think most people wouldn't go much further than voting for not rival parties or abstaining unless the mistake was really catastrophic.
That's right, and attacks tend only to be really damaging if they seem to contradict fundamental assumptions. Tories can cut Armed Forces budgets because their voters think they're basically sound on the issue; people thinking of voting Labour don't really think the party is racist. If Labour proposed to slash welfare spending or the Tories came out for big tax rises you'd see some serious defections.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Not only attracted them, emboldened them, just like Trump and the Neo Nazis.
Imagine if these people actually go on to form the elected government. (Shudders).
The question is who is tough enough and clever enough in Labour to take them on and win the party back. The only person I can think of (and he isn't coming back) is Eddie Spheroids.
The likes of Walter the softie (Hiliary Benn) aren't going to do it.
Pretty disappointed his wife isn't making more of an effort to me honest.
Surely what most sane people want is peace in the Middle East, and the only way to get to that is to criticise wrong-doing wherever it occurs, and to praise people and organisations when they do things right.
On the contrary, to get to peace - you often have to sacrifice justice.
Indeed. But you have to make it clear that the injustice is acknowledged. The Truth and Reconciliation process in SA is a classic example.
Sacrificing justice by ignoring it is the wrong approach, for self-evident reasons.
There are arguments both ways. In Northern Ireland, we took the view that to achieve peace, the victims of terrorists would just have to suck it up.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
So is Corbyn a pound shop Trump or is Trump a pound shop Corbyn?
Neither. Trump is a pound shop Farage/Boris and Corbyn is a pound shop Sanders or vice versa
I hope we don’t talk about the Holy Land all day, but here’s my two pennorth:
It’s not surprising that Israel doesn’t trust the Palestinians or other Arab states. They opposed the division of Palestine in the first place, Israel’s Arab neighbours tried to crush Israel at birth, they supported terrorist groups and launched a surprise attack in 1973. If any of these has succeeded, Israel would have ceased to exist, so the threat was existential. This threat is faced by a people who saw one-third of their co-religionists exterminated within living memory. Since withdrawing forces from Gaza, southern Israel has been subjected to rocket attacks.
Why on earth would such a people give up control for a promise of peace? It will take 20 years of acceptance of Israel’s right to exist for the Palestinians to get a hearing.
We’re talking about the Holy Land today because Brexit just isn’t a devicive enough subject!
I think peace will happen eventually, but will require all the peoples of the region and their leaders to moderate their words and actions, and want to live peacefully for it to come about.
We all thought peace in Northern Ireland would never come about, until the people and their leaders (of all parties) became determined to make peace happen. The question is who will be the Middle East’s John Major?
They were, too, part of a larger whole. The Good Friday Agreement was signed after both the UK and RoI joined the EU.
Yeah a big part of the next election will be bringing out your own voters. I think in terms of mistakes I suppose it can depend on what exactly they are but for a lot of people it is much more a general idea of what the party is for, it is usually easy enough, if you wish to do so, to match mistakes from your own side with mistakes from the other. I think most people wouldn't go much further than voting for not rival parties or abstaining unless the mistake was really catastrophic.
That's right, and attacks tend only to be really damaging if they seem to contradict fundamental assumptions. Tories can cut Armed Forces budgets because their voters think they're basically sound on the issue; people thinking of voting Labour don't really think the party is racist. If Labour proposed to slash welfare spending or the Tories came out for big tax rises you'd see some serious defections.
Yeah, even an abstention on such a thing might cause some unknown reaction within the party....
I think it is only really that or a Black Wednesday type event that really shifts things as they stand. Brexit caused a realignment in some places but I can't see where that type of event comes from. Outside of that I would imagine a series of small positive events (or negative the other side) could see a gradual trend one way or other but small shifts over time rather than a commanding lead for one.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Not only attracted them, emboldened them, just like Trump and the Neo Nazis.
Imagine if these people actually go on to form the elected government. (Shudders).
The question is who is tough enough and clever enough in Labour to take them on and win the party back. The only person I can think of (and he isn't coming back) is Eddie Spheroids.
The likes of Walter the softie (Hiliary Benn) aren't going to do it.
Pretty disappointed his wife isn't making more of an effort to me honest.
Softlee, softlee catchee monkey? Hopefully. (Wild, distant, I fear!)
The Israelis are far more powerful in every way than the Palestinians and have much more responsibility for the situation as a result. This isn't an equal situation and any evaluation of it should take that into account. The simple fact is that Israel has been ignoring international law in an increasingly brazen fashion in recent years with barely a whisper from our government, or the war-infatuated segment of the PLP. Corbyn is in the firing line because he is the first potential PM in virtually forever to question this cosy, symbiotic accommodation of a violent, corrupt, racist settler state, and for no other reason.
Israel is the only fully functioning democracy in the Middle East, the only one with full freedom.of religion and freedom to express your sexuality and has the highest GDP per capita of any Middle Eastern nation beyond those who already had vast amounts of oil. There is a reason most Western democracies to not want to see Israel driven into the sea though I can see why the authoritarian hard Left may want it to be driven into the sea indeed Israel has already fought two wars against its neighbours to ensure its survival
There is some merit in that argument, but it rather ignores the 600,000 plus Israeli residents (aka illegal settlers) of the West Bank who can vote, while the Palestinian residents can't. And the draconian controls on Palestinians - to which Israelis resident in the same territory are not subject - are hardly a mark of a fully functioning democracy either.
The inability of either side in the conflict to recognise that their opponents as well as themselves have a case to be heard has been evident as long as I can remember. While both remain convinced of their own righteousness, there will be no solution.
From a Labour POV, or at least from mine, I'm relatively happy to stay close to the Conservatives in the polls for the time being.
After several good weeks for Labour in which the Tory vote barely shifted we've had a good couple of weeks for the Tories in which Labours vote has barely shifted. Which is partially why I think the idea of Labour having a new leader and surging ahead 15-20 points in the polls in unrealistic.
If the polls look something like they have done over the past couple of months just before we get into the election campaigning period I'll be fairly optimistic about Labours chances. There won't be the same kind of swings we saw in the last campaign but with a strong campaign, which isn't an unrealistic expectation of Labour, we could advance enough to take it.
A big part of the next election will probably be decided on how many voters each party holds onto from the last election.
I'd rather be close in the polls, too. The idea that your boy might win will be a powerful motivator to moderates and Tories alike
Moderates see a choice between two sets of nutjobs. The Conservatives have spent the last 18 months telling them that they are traitors and saboteurs. Good luck in seeking their votes.
If it was in your power to stop Brexit would you do so?
If I were an MP and there were a vote on abandoning Brexit tomorrow and it was apparent the vote would be tight, I would vote to continue with Brexit. The damage of ignoring the referendum vote at a time when the public had not demonstrably decisively changed its collective mind would be even greater than the damage Brexit is causing. The choice is between alternate disasters, and the disaster of ignoring public opinion is even worse than that of implementing a terrible decision.
Besides, it would be in all likelihood ineffective: Britain’s psychodrama with the EU has some way yet to play out. Britain is in no fit state to continue to play a part in the EU as it goes through its civil war on the subject.
My answer might be different in the future, depending on the circumstances at the time.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
So is Corbyn a pound shop Trump or is Trump a pound shop Corbyn?
Neither. Trump is a pound shop Farage/Boris and Corbyn is a pound shop Sanders or vice versa
I am not sure sanders is a lightening rod for antisemities and conspiracy theory nutters nor calls terrorists friends....
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Not only attracted them, emboldened them, just like Trump and the Neo Nazis.
Imagine if these people actually go on to form the elected government. (Shudders).
The question is who is tough enough and clever enough in Labour to take them on and win the party back. The only person I can think of (and he isn't coming back) is Eddie Spheroids.
The likes of Walter the softie (Hiliary Benn) aren't going to do it.
Pretty disappointed his wife isn't making more of an effort to me honest.
She was pretty strong on Russia. She's been quiet on the antisemitism row.
There still seems to be a paralysing reticence to go for the jugular with Corbyn. There are two possible reasons for that, IMO (which are not mutually exclusive). The first is a mental block with regards ever challenging the leader; something that Labour has been notoriously poor at in the past; the second, borne of the experience of the rare instance of an actual challenge in 2016, is that moderates are holding their fire, awaiting a moment when they can act, knowing that unless they carry the membership with them, any rebellion might well not only be futile but massively counterproductive.
(There are two other possible reasons that I'm going to dismiss here: that engaging in civil war lets the Tories get away with Brexit; and that doing so lessens the chance of a Labour victory at a GE. On the first point, Corbyn is passively supportive of Brexit, so it makes no difference; on the second, while there may be some merit in the argument, partly it's short-term pain for long-term gain, and partly it's that 'a Labour victory' means 'a Corbyn victory' at the moment, which if it happened would magnify Labour's current problems tenfold, and is in any case, Corbyn's leadership is of itself a hindering factor).
However, what's clear is that there's no appetite to engage in organised trench warfare against the Corbynites. Pot-shots from time to time are as far as they're prepared to go for now. To be honest, they're probably right in that strategy. They need Corbyn to be seen to fail - and that means giving him the space to do so.
Mr. Eagles, that's depressing. I wonder what the figures for Saudi Arabia and Iran are. And the UK, France, and Germany.
I fear things like antisemitism and islamophobia are sadly common amongst all societies, including our own. Too many people just like to hate for a whole host of spurious reasons.
The sad thing is that it need not be the case. We're not born with such thoughts; they're learnt. They are societal diseases.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
So is Corbyn a pound shop Trump or is Trump a pound shop Corbyn?
Neither. Trump is a pound shop Berlusconi. Corbyn, while sharing superficial similarities in, for example, their ability to believe whatever they assert, and to ignore anything they choose not to look at, is an activist-politician; Trump is a political dilettante.
Yeah a big part of the next election will be bringing out your own voters. I think in terms of mistakes I suppose it can depend on what exactly they are but for a lot of people it is much more a general idea of what the party is for, it is usually easy enough, if you wish to do so, to match mistakes from your own side with mistakes from the other. I think most people wouldn't go much further than voting for not rival parties or abstaining unless the mistake was really catastrophic.
That's right, and attacks tend only to be really damaging if they seem to contradict fundamental assumptions. Tories can cut Armed Forces budgets because their voters think they're basically sound on the issue; people thinking of voting Labour don't really think the party is racist. If Labour proposed to slash welfare spending or the Tories came out for big tax rises you'd see some serious defections.
"people thinking of voting Labour don't really think the party is racist"
corrected for you
people thinking of voting Labour don't like to think that the party is racist even though they know it is.
Didn’t May/Davis say that we were ‘better’ at 'digital things’ than the rest of the EU, so we didn’t want to participate? The opposite of the Governments view oin, for example the Medicines Agency. Roaming charges could well be back too, although they seem to be falling world-wide.
Didn’t May/Davis say that we were ‘better’ at 'digital things’ than the rest of the EU, so we didn’t want to participate? The opposite of the Governments view oin, for example the Medicines Agency. Roaming charges could well be back too, although they seem to be falling world-wide.
We're not going to lose Netflix (maybe not *gain* the same though) and we're not going to see the return of roaming charges as they once were.
Didn’t May/Davis say that we were ‘better’ at 'digital things’ than the rest of the EU, so we didn’t want to participate? The opposite of the Governments view oin, for example the Medicines Agency. Roaming charges could well be back too, although they seem to be falling world-wide.
They also said their first visit would be Berlin to get a trade deal...
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
So is Corbyn a pound shop Trump or is Trump a pound shop Corbyn?
Neither. Trump is a pound shop Farage/Boris and Corbyn is a pound shop Sanders or vice versa
I am not sure sanders is a lightening rod for antisemities and conspiracy theory nutters nor calls terrorists friends....
King Cole, without commenting on this specific case, May (and many others, including Rudd and Cooper) are complete ****ing idiots when it comes to technology. Hence their desire for the practically impossible filter to stop any kiddiwink seeing anything adult. Or the mooted (and thankfully delayed) database of porn users. Because that won't leave people wide open to blackmail for viewing something legal (even if deemed distasteful by some).
Edited extra bit: and that's without getting into the polygraph, and its use on released paedophiles.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Not only attracted them, emboldened them, just like Trump and the Neo Nazis.
Imagine if these people actually go on to form the elected government. (Shudders).
The question is who is tough enough and clever enough in Labour to take them on and win the party back. The only person I can think of (and he isn't coming back) is Eddie Spheroids.
The likes of Walter the softie (Hiliary Benn) aren't going to do it.
Pretty disappointed his wife isn't making more of an effort to me honest.
She was pretty strong on Russia. She's been quiet on the antisemitism row.
snip
(There are two other possible reasons that I'm going to dismiss here: that engaging in civil war lets the Tories get away with Brexit; and that doing so lessens the chance of a Labour victory at a GE. On the first point, Corbyn is passively supportive of Brexit, so it makes no difference; on the second, while there may be some merit in the argument, partly it's short-term pain for long-term gain, and partly it's that 'a Labour victory' means 'a Corbyn victory' at the moment, which if it happened would magnify Labour's current problems tenfold, and is in any case, Corbyn's leadership is of itself a hindering factor).
However, what's clear is that there's no appetite to engage in organised trench warfare against the Corbynites. Pot-shots from time to time are as far as they're prepared to go for now. To be honest, they're probably right in that strategy. They need Corbyn to be seen to fail - and that means giving him the space to do so.
Good points. But we return to the essential question. Will you Yvette (to pick one example), support Corbyn's entry into Downing Street if he wins a GE?
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
So is Corbyn a pound shop Trump or is Trump a pound shop Corbyn?
Neither. Trump is a pound shop Berlusconi. Corbyn, while sharing superficial similarities in, for example, their ability to believe whatever they assert, and to ignore anything they choose not to look at, is an activist-politician; Trump is a political dilettante.
If Corbyn is an activist-politician then he has been a remarkably unsuccessful one for the vast, vast majority of his political life.
Until 2.5 years ago, he had achieved no positive change in the world that I can identify. Yes, he has now achieved something that ought to have been impossible - the leadership of the Labour Party. But that doesn't obliterate years of posturing and opposing that achieved bugger all to improve the world or forward his ideas.
He is someone who has found it far easier to say what he is opposed to than to articulate any strong, practical vision for what he wants. Yes, it is easy to promise free money for everyone and everything - but far harder to explain where that money will come from.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
So is Corbyn a pound shop Trump or is Trump a pound shop Corbyn?
Neither. Trump is a pound shop Berlusconi. Corbyn, while sharing superficial similarities in, for example, their ability to believe whatever they assert, and to ignore anything they choose not to look at, is an activist-politician; Trump is a political dilettante.
If Corbyn is an activist-politician then he has been a remarkably unsuccessful one for the vast, vast majority of his political life.
Until 2.5 years ago, he had achieved no positive change in the world that I can identify. Yes, he has now achieved something that ought to have been impossible - the leadership of the Labour Party. But that doesn't obliterate years of posturing and opposing that achieved bugger all to improve the world or forward his ideas.
He is someone who has found it far easier to say what he is opposed to than to articulate any strong, practical vision for what he wants. Yes, it is easy to promise free money for everyone and everything - but far harder to explain where that money will come from.
He is an Oppositionalist
A team needs that sort of person; critical friend. However doubling as chair or whatever the Leader is called isn’t a good idea
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Not only attracted them, emboldened them, just like Trump and the Neo Nazis.
Imagine if these people actually go on to form the elected government. (Shudders).
The question is who is tough enough and clever enough in Labour to take them on and win the party back. The only person I can think of (and he isn't coming back) is Eddie Spheroids.
The likes of Walter the softie (Hiliary Benn) aren't going to do it.
Pretty disappointed his wife isn't making more of an effort to me honest.
She was pretty strong on Russia. She's been quiet on the antisemitism row.
snip
(There are two other possible reasons that I'm going to dismiss here: that engaging in civil war lets the Tories get away with Brexit; and that doing so lessens the chance of a Labour victory at a GE. On the first point, Corbyn is passively supportive of Brexit, so it makes no difference; on the second, while there may be some merit in the argument, partly it's short-term pain for long-term gain, and partly it's that 'a Labour victory' means 'a Corbyn victory' at the moment, which if it happened would magnify Labour's current problems tenfold, and is in any case, Corbyn's leadership is of itself a hindering factor).
However, what's clear is that there's no appetite to engage in organised trench warfare against the Corbynites. Pot-shots from time to time are as far as they're prepared to go for now. To be honest, they're probably right in that strategy. They need Corbyn to be seen to fail - and that means giving him the space to do so.
Good points. But we return to the essential question. Will you Yvette (to pick one example), support Corbyn's entry into Downing Street if he wins a GE?
Yes, she would (because that was the basis on which she campaigned last year). But she will be desperately hoping that something turns up between now and 2022 to avoid being in that position again.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
So is Corbyn a pound shop Trump or is Trump a pound shop Corbyn?
Neither. Trump is a pound shop Berlusconi. Corbyn, while sharing superficial similarities in, for example, their ability to believe whatever they assert, and to ignore anything they choose not to look at, is an activist-politician; Trump is a political dilettante.
If Corbyn is an activist-politician then he has been a remarkably unsuccessful one for the vast, vast majority of his political life.
Until 2.5 years ago, he had achieved no positive change in the world that I can identify. Yes, he has now achieved something that ought to have been impossible - the leadership of the Labour Party. But that doesn't obliterate years of posturing and opposing that achieved bugger all to improve the world or forward his ideas.
He is someone who has found it far easier to say what he is opposed to than to articulate any strong, practical vision for what he wants. Yes, it is easy to promise free money for everyone and everything - but far harder to explain where that money will come from.
He is an Oppositionalist
A team needs that sort of person; critical friend. However doubling aschair or whatevr the Leader is called isn’t a good idea
You have to actually be a friend who shares a world view that is at least in some way related to the main direction of travel for the group. However Corbyn has never been that. He was so much on the fringe as to be probably the biggest rebel in parliamentary history - in no way throughout his time as an MP could he ever really be seen as a friend of Labour. He used the party to maintain a platform without actually contributing to the common aims of the party.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Considering that he's spent his career associating with nutcases and racists, not that incredible: in his election - and perhaps even more so, in his re-election - they've seen their worldview legitimised and made mainstream.
So is Corbyn a pound shop Trump or is Trump a pound shop Corbyn?
Neither. Trump is a pound shop Berlusconi. Corbyn, while sharing superficial similarities in, for example, their ability to believe whatever they assert, and to ignore anything they choose not to look at, is an activist-politician; Trump is a political dilettante.
If Corbyn is an activist-politician then he has been a remarkably unsuccessful one for the vast, vast majority of his political life.
Until 2.5 years ago, he had achieved no positive change in the world that I can identify. Yes, he has now achieved something that ought to have been impossible - the leadership of the Labour Party. But that doesn't obliterate years of posturing and opposing that achieved bugger all to improve the world or forward his ideas.
He is someone who has found it far easier to say what he is opposed to than to articulate any strong, practical vision for what he wants. Yes, it is easy to promise free money for everyone and everything - but far harder to explain where that money will come from.
He is an Oppositionalist
I agree with all that. But he's still an activist-politician; he just likes causes which are unfashionable outside his circle (which given that they're unlikely to be successful, therefore have the advantage of never bringing with them the responsibility of their implementation). But that doesn't change the depth of his sincere interest in East Timor, for example.
The much reported recession in the construction industry turns out not to have happened:
' Construction output was estimated to have decreased by 0.1% in the fourth quarter of 2017, revised upwards from negative 0.7% in the second estimate of GDP.
With the inclusion of VAT turnover data, there have been upward revisions to construction in Quarter 1, Quarter 2 and Quarter 3 2017. This has resulted in the negative growth reported for Quarter 3 2017 in the second estimate of GDP now showing positive growth of 0.4%.
The annual growth in 2017 of 5.7% is revised upwards from the 5.1% growth reported in the second estimate of GDP and is stronger than the 3.9% growth seen in 2016. This strength reflects strong growth in construction output in late 2016 and the first quarter of 2017. '
The question is who is tough enough and clever enough in Labour to take them on and win the party back. The only person I can think of (and he isn't coming back) is Eddie Spheroids.
The likes of Walter the softie (Hiliary Benn) aren't going to do it.
Pretty disappointed his wife isn't making more of an effort to me honest.
She was pretty strong on Russia. She's been quiet on the antisemitism row.
There still seems to be a paralysing reticence to go for the jugular with Corbyn. There are two possible reasons for that, IMO (which are not mutually exclusive). The first is a mental block with regards ever challenging the leader; something that Labour has been notoriously poor at in the past; the second, borne of the experience of the rare instance of an actual challenge in 2016, is that moderates are holding their fire, awaiting a moment when they can act, knowing that unless they carry the membership with them, any rebellion might well not only be futile but massively counterproductive.
(There are two other possible reasons that I'm going to dismiss here: that engaging in civil war lets the Tories get away with Brexit; and that doing so lessens the chance of a Labour victory at a GE. On the first point, Corbyn is passively supportive of Brexit, so it makes no difference; on the second, while there may be some merit in the argument, partly it's short-term pain for long-term gain, and partly it's that 'a Labour victory' means 'a Corbyn victory' at the moment, which if it happened would magnify Labour's current problems tenfold, and is in any case, Corbyn's leadership is of itself a hindering factor).
However, what's clear is that there's no appetite to engage in organised trench warfare against the Corbynites. Pot-shots from time to time are as far as they're prepared to go for now. To be honest, they're probably right in that strategy. They need Corbyn to be seen to fail - and that means giving him the space to do so.
I used to think that. But Corbyn is turning Labour into a mix of Respect, the SWP and the BNP with his vile views and those of his supporters. The question for decent Labour folk is whether they are prepared to go along with that, even passively, by doing and saying nothing. If they do then they will be responsible for the spread of Corbyn’s malign ideology and the harm it will do to British politics and the country.
A companion argument to "Death to those who claim that Islam incites the killing of those who oppose it."
Morning all,
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Not only attracted them, emboldened them, just like Trump and the Neo Nazis.
Imagine if these people actually go on to form the elected government. (Shudders).
The question is who is tough enough and clever enough in Labour to take them on and win the party back. The only person I can think of (and he isn't coming back) is Eddie Spheroids.
Pretty disappointed his wife isn't making more of an effort to me honest.
She was pretty strong on Russia. She's been quiet on the antisemitism row.
There still seems to be a paralysing reticence to go for the jugular with Corbyn. There are two possible reasons for that, IMO (which are not mutually exclusive). The first is a mental block with regards ever challenging the leader; something that Labour has been notoriously poor at in the past; the second, borne of the experience of the rare instance of an actual challenge in 2016, is that moderates are holding their fire, awaiting a moment when they can act, knowing that unless they carry the membership with them, any rebellion might well not only be futile but massively counterproductive......
However, what's clear is that there's no appetite to engage in organised trench warfare against the Corbynites. Pot-shots from time to time are as far as they're prepared to go for now. To be honest, they're probably right in that strategy. They need Corbyn to be seen to fail - and that means giving him the space to do so.
I think around the time of the Owen Smith challenge, I advocated the 'seen to fail' as the way ahead. The difficulty is that it almost requires acting as a moral jellyfish on things as fundamentally vile as anti-semitism up until the point where there is absolutely no rowing back for Corbyn. Good men doing nothing, and all that.
There was an important caveat to that 'seen to fail' approach as well, trench opposition to any takeover of the internal mechanics of the Labour party by the Corbynites. Now, as an ex-three quidder and someone whose political engagement and influence, such as it is, almost entirely sits with my occasional keyboard tapping on this site, I'm an outsider for sure, but it seems to me that this opposition isn't going very well at all.
Comments
On the positive side, one year until Brexit day!
Sacrificing justice by ignoring it is the wrong approach, for self-evident reasons.
Fair play to Cricket Australia for dishing out a proper punishment to the cheats, no less than they deserve
As much as Hamas for example have terrible rhetoric about destroying Israel, Israel are actually destroying the Palestinian state. That is why I feel it is all well and good condemning both sides but one side is actually making peace impossible, yes some of the people in charge of the failed state are a bunch of crazy terrorists...
That is probably what we should expect from a state in Palestine's situation. We refused at times to deal with the Arafat because he was too extreme, so now we have Hamas. Are we going to roll the dice on that one again and find out the Palestinian people aren't getting friendlier the longer things go on and the worse things get?
When Skripal was looking for a house, his first choice was "as close as possible to the UK nerve agent stockpile"...
Of course, when he died we learnt his personal wealth exceeded Palestinian GDP, so it may be that his primary goal in life was his bank balance.
Things are extremely difficult for the Palestinian people. The way to improve things is to try and get peace talks going and to reduce tension with Israel. Doing that when the people in charge of Gaza deny the right of Israel to exist seems impossible.
Vote Remain
Don't vote.
The mode was Vote Leave (unusually - normally it's DNV).
@Elliot
I think part of the problem is they already have democracy (to a certain extent, they have voted twice I think in the last 15 or so years) but it is a foreign state attacking them, if they were one state a democratic solution would be simpler. Although that probably won't happen for obvious reasons.
- wavered for a long time before deciding, or had little understanding, or
- interest in the issues at all and could have been persuaded the other way had they engaged, or
- was genuinely in favour of a model where Britain was out legally but remained extremely closely engaged.
Jezza really has attracted a hard core of nutcases and racists. Quite incredible.
Incidentally, your point about ethnicity/religion can be flipped. Israel is not the only country occupying its neighbours for decades. Would the Western Saharans get a bit more attention if Moroccans were a little more Jewish?
It’s not surprising that Israel doesn’t trust the Palestinians or other Arab states. They opposed the division of Palestine in the first place, Israel’s Arab neighbours tried to crush Israel at birth, they supported terrorist groups and launched a surprise attack in 1973. If any of these has succeeded, Israel would have ceased to exist, so the threat was existential. This threat is faced by a people who saw one-third of their co-religionists exterminated within living memory. Since withdrawing forces from Gaza, southern Israel has been subjected to rocket attacks.
Why on earth would such a people give up control for a promise of peace? It will take 20 years of acceptance of Israel’s right to exist for the Palestinians to get a hearing.
Israel was serious about peace once, so extremists assassinated the president, since then there has been little progress.
Israel has for some time been working to make sure Palestine cannot possibly exist, which surely must be several orders of magnitude worse than simply just saying the other side can't exist?
I believe UK courts for example find a huge difference between a death threat and actually murdering someone.
Edit: As for the riches point I think Hamas anti-corruption policy was one of their selling points.
Would've been interesting to see what Ariel Sharon could've done had he led Kadima to the near-certain victory that was predicted.
https://order-order.com/2018/03/29/shawcroft-remains-on-nec-despite-losing-job-for-defending-holocaust-denial-candidate/
How many Jews would live between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean if the Arab states succeeded in 1948 or 1973 or Hamas controlled Israel/Palestine?
I rarely hear anyone arguing the Moroccans case to be honest, I'll leave others to speculate on why.
Edit: some of the comments on this thread are something else.
The likes of Walter the softie (Hiliary Benn) aren't going to do it.
How long is it taking to really work that through? there’s a religious dimension there, too.
Having said all that, ‘something’ had to be done for the Jewish people, especially after the Holocaust. However, the Law of Return seems to spread itself widely.
I think peace will happen eventually, but will require all the peoples of the region and their leaders to moderate their words and actions, and want to live peacefully for it to come about.
We all thought peace in Northern Ireland would never come about, until the people and their leaders (of all parties) became determined to make peace happen. The question is who will be the Middle East’s John Major?
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I am highly doubtful a Palestinian democracy would survive for long. But I agree they need independence to create the conditions for it to emerge decades down the line. My point is that Hamas' continued commitment to theocracy, genocide and civilian targets are choices that hurt Palestinian interests. I think Fatah, post-Arafat, have actually been pretty damn good.
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I can't see a functioning independent state being created, what they currently have probably doesn't work and I don't think there will be the will from the Israelis, especially considering the setup of their parliament, to give land back. They do still control the West Bank, unless it is a different organisation. Whilst their rhetoric is a lot friendlier I don't think they have exactly got anywhere either.
I think it is only really that or a Black Wednesday type event that really shifts things as they stand. Brexit caused a realignment in some places but I can't see where that type of event comes from. Outside of that I would imagine a series of small positive events (or negative the other side) could see a gradual trend one way or other but small shifts over time rather than a commanding lead for one.
Softlee, softlee catchee monkey? Hopefully. (Wild, distant, I fear!)
And the draconian controls on Palestinians - to which Israelis resident in the same territory are not subject - are hardly a mark of a fully functioning democracy either.
The inability of either side in the conflict to recognise that their opponents as well as themselves have a case to be heard has been evident as long as I can remember. While both remain convinced of their own righteousness, there will be no solution.
Besides, it would be in all likelihood ineffective: Britain’s psychodrama with the EU has some way yet to play out. Britain is in no fit state to continue to play a part in the EU as it goes through its civil war on the subject.
My answer might be different in the future, depending on the circumstances at the time.
There still seems to be a paralysing reticence to go for the jugular with Corbyn. There are two possible reasons for that, IMO (which are not mutually exclusive). The first is a mental block with regards ever challenging the leader; something that Labour has been notoriously poor at in the past; the second, borne of the experience of the rare instance of an actual challenge in 2016, is that moderates are holding their fire, awaiting a moment when they can act, knowing that unless they carry the membership with them, any rebellion might well not only be futile but massively counterproductive.
(There are two other possible reasons that I'm going to dismiss here: that engaging in civil war lets the Tories get away with Brexit; and that doing so lessens the chance of a Labour victory at a GE. On the first point, Corbyn is passively supportive of Brexit, so it makes no difference; on the second, while there may be some merit in the argument, partly it's short-term pain for long-term gain, and partly it's that 'a Labour victory' means 'a Corbyn victory' at the moment, which if it happened would magnify Labour's current problems tenfold, and is in any case, Corbyn's leadership is of itself a hindering factor).
However, what's clear is that there's no appetite to engage in organised trench warfare against the Corbynites. Pot-shots from time to time are as far as they're prepared to go for now. To be honest, they're probably right in that strategy. They need Corbyn to be seen to fail - and that means giving him the space to do so.
The sad thing is that it need not be the case. We're not born with such thoughts; they're learnt. They are societal diseases.
corrected for you
people thinking of voting Labour don't like to think that the party is racist even though they know it is.
Roaming charges could well be back too, although they seem to be falling world-wide.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/d28l/pnbp
and the 2017 current account deficit ws over £30bn lower in 2017 than in 2016:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/hbop/pnbp
So PBers which would you prefer ?
a) A £30bn reduction in the current account deficit
b) A pack of fishfingers to be 5p cheaper
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/29/ex-parole-board-chief-criticises-justice-ministry-over-worboys-case
Edited extra bit: and that's without getting into the polygraph, and its use on released paedophiles.
Until 2.5 years ago, he had achieved no positive change in the world that I can identify. Yes, he has now achieved something that ought to have been impossible - the leadership of the Labour Party. But that doesn't obliterate years of posturing and opposing that achieved bugger all to improve the world or forward his ideas.
He is someone who has found it far easier to say what he is opposed to than to articulate any strong, practical vision for what he wants. Yes, it is easy to promise free money for everyone and everything - but far harder to explain where that money will come from.
He is an Oppositionalist
Edit: spelling
https://twitter.com/danielsusskind/status/979274043659636736
Feeling a little queazy yet Shami?
Yeh, we are going to come after you and...
...put you on the NEC.
' Construction output was estimated to have decreased by 0.1% in the fourth quarter of 2017, revised upwards from negative 0.7% in the second estimate of GDP.
With the inclusion of VAT turnover data, there have been upward revisions to construction in Quarter 1, Quarter 2 and Quarter 3 2017. This has resulted in the negative growth reported for Quarter 3 2017 in the second estimate of GDP now showing positive growth of 0.4%.
The annual growth in 2017 of 5.7% is revised upwards from the 5.1% growth reported in the second estimate of GDP and is stronger than the 3.9% growth seen in 2016. This strength reflects strong growth in construction output in late 2016 and the first quarter of 2017. '
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/quarterlynationalaccounts/octobertodecember2017#the-2017-quarterly-picture
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5547193/Richard-Littlejohn-real-fascists-today-Left.html
What a sh!tbag McDonnell is
They only chucked her (partially) under the bus because their disgusting viewpoints are being exposed to sunlight.
That ... person... is still on the NEC
We should NEVER forget that Labour have been quietly reinstating suspended members as well.
Please tell me that this woman is just too stupid to understand that phrase.
There was an important caveat to that 'seen to fail' approach as well, trench opposition to any takeover of the internal mechanics of the Labour party by the Corbynites. Now, as an ex-three quidder and someone whose political engagement and influence, such as it is, almost entirely sits with my occasional keyboard tapping on this site, I'm an outsider for sure, but it seems to me that this opposition isn't going very well at all.