Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Analysis of the Q1 local by-elections finds CON struggling to

2

Comments

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    "I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse."

    Wow. If you want a clue, look at a country that Corbyn has waxed lyrical about in the past (although for some strange reason not so much in the last couple of years).

    Venezuela.

    Things can get much, much worse.
    I have no idea what you are talking about....

    https://youtu.be/lxpWeUrO9k8
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2018
    AndyJS said:

    Mehdi Hasan in the New Statesman:

    "The sorry truth is that the virus of anti-Semitism has infected the British Muslim community

    It's a shameful fact that Muslims are not only the victims of racial and religious prejudice but purveyors of it, too."


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2013/03/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community

    That statement reminds me of the way African American community in us have a problem with Hispanics, in particular Puerto Rican’s. Chris rock does a very funny bit about it in one of his specials about the absurdity of being massively racist after being on the receiving end.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Posted without comment from the ONS GDP revisals yesterday:

    "Construction output was estimated to have decreased by 0.1% in the fourth quarter of 2017, revised upwards from negative 0.7% in the second estimate of GDP.

    With the inclusion of VAT turnover data, there have been upward revisions to construction in Quarter 1, Quarter 2 and Quarter 3 2017. This has resulted in the negative growth reported for Quarter 3 2017 in the second estimate of GDP now showing positive growth of 0.4%.

    The annual growth in 2017 of 5.7% is revised upwards from the 5.1% growth reported in the second estimate of GDP and is stronger than the 3.9% growth seen in 2016. This strength reflects strong growth in construction output in late 2016 and the first quarter of 2017."

    I am very surprised, however, that the BoP changes did not bring growth for Q4 back up to 0.5. It seems that there were offsetting falls in business services. Disappointing, particularly when business investment is now estimated to have grown by 2.4% last year.

    At least the trade deficit fell in 2017 to its lowest as a percentage of GDP since 1998.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/d28l/pnbp

    Looking at those continuous heavy trade deficits of the 2000s it should have been obvious that something wasn't quite right with the UK economy.

    It wasn't that long before the 2000s that the trade data would be a major news item and bad figures worthy of political argument.
    ISTR stories in the ‘80s about British Airways getting a call from No 11 asking them to delay delivery of 747s by a month or two, because at $300m each they were having a serious effect on the trade figures - figures which you correctly point out used to lead the news on the day they were released. I have no idea why they stopped reporting them, it’s unlike the media in general to shy away from bad news for the government.
    The slight problem the UK has now compared to 20 or 30 years ago is that we have gone from a large net creditor to the world, where they owed us money, to a large net debtor. This is why the current account (as a percentage of GDP) in 2017 was still the fourth worst in the post-World War 2 period.

    Back in the 1980s, because we had flows into the UK from the assets we held abroad, we could run a 1-1.25% trade deficit, and still have a flat current account. Now, we need to run a 1% trade surplus to achieve the same effect. (It is worth noting that weakness in sterling does ameliorate this somewhat. If sterling goes down, then the value of dividends, rent, etc, from abroad increases.)
    How did we become a net debtor? That would be an interesting book.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:


    At least the trade deficit fell in 2017 to its lowest as a percentage of GDP since 1998.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/d28l/pnbp

    Looking at those continuous heavy trade deficits of the 2000s it should have been obvious that something wasn't quite right with the UK economy.

    It wasn't that long before the 2000s that the trade data would be a major news item and bad figures worthy of political argument.

    ISTR stories in the ‘80s about British Airways getting a call from No 11 asking them to delay delivery of 747s by a month or two, because at $300m each they were having a serious effect on the trade figures - figures which you correctly point out used to lead the news on the day they were released. I have no idea why they stopped reporting them, it’s unlike the media in general to shy away from bad news for the government.
    The slight problem the UK has now compared to 20 or 30 years ago is that we have gone from a large net creditor to the world, where they owed us money, to a large net debtor. This is why the current account (as a percentage of GDP) in 2017 was still the fourth worst in the post-World War 2 period.

    Back in the 1980s, because we had flows into the UK from the assets we held abroad, we could run a 1-1.25% trade deficit, and still have a flat current account. Now, we need to run a 1% trade surplus to achieve the same effect. (It is worth noting that weakness in sterling does ameliorate this somewhat. If sterling goes down, then the value of dividends, rent, etc, from abroad increases.)
    How did we become a net debtor? That would be an interesting book.
    We consumed more wealth than we created.

    Governments encouraged this as it made people happy and so more likely to re-elect them.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    AndyJS said:

    Mehdi Hasan in the New Statesman:

    "The sorry truth is that the virus of anti-Semitism has infected the British Muslim community

    It's a shameful fact that Muslims are not only the victims of racial and religious prejudice but purveyors of it, too."


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2013/03/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community

    Fair play to him for writing that. It’s always much more difficult, but also very necessary, to call out problems among your own groups, but it has to be done if behaviours are to change.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    AndyJS said:



    How did we become a net debtor? That would be an interesting book.

    That is the inevitable consequence of running current account deficits year after year. If we spend more than we earn, the money has to come from either selling assets or borrowing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:


    At least the trade deficit fell in 2017 to its lowest as a percentage of GDP since 1998.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/d28l/pnbp

    Looking at those continuous heavy trade deficits of the 2000s it should have been obvious that something wasn't quite right with the UK economy.

    It wasn't that long before the 2000s that the trade data would be a major news item and bad figures worthy of political argument.

    ISTR stories in the ‘80s about British Airways getting a call from No 11 asking them to delay delivery of 747s by a month or two, because at $300m each they were having a serious effect on the trade figures - figures which you correctly point out used to lead the news on the day they were released. I have no idea why they stopped reporting them, it’s unlike the media in general to shy away from bad news for the government.
    The slight problem the UK has now compared to 20 or 30 years ago is that we have gone from a large net creditor to the world, where they owed us money, to a large net debtor. This is why the current account (as a percentage of GDP) in 2017 was still the fourth worst in the post-World War 2 period.

    Back in the 1980s, because we had flows into the UK from the assets we held abroad, we could run a 1-1.25% trade deficit, and still have a flat current account. Now, we need to run a 1% trade surplus to achieve the same effect. (It is worth noting that weakness in sterling does ameliorate this somewhat. If sterling goes down, then the value of dividends, rent, etc, from abroad increases.)
    How did we become a net debtor? That would be an interesting book.
    We consumed more wealth than we created.

    Governments encouraged this as it made people happy and so more likely to re-elect them.
    +1
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    The UK’s net international investment position (NIIP) has been deteriorating for a very long time.

    When we were the only industrial power, much of the profits were invested overseas. The U.K. became a nation with vast overseas assets. The income from these assets meant that we could have a higher standard of living than other nations, even if we were less productive overall.

    Britain’s poor productivity was revealed in the two world wars. While we were capable of devoting a larger share of our economy to war production than the Germans, this was only at the cost of liquidating a large share of our overseas investments and consuming the wealth. This meant that if our productivity remained the same post-war, we would be poorer overall, as we would receive less income from overseas. The Atlee Government realised this very quickly.

    Other structural changes have made things worse, in particular the shift from energy independence to import dependence (with the exception of the North Sea from 1980-2010).

    The greatest fallacy of post 80s politics is that foreign ownership doesn’t matter. It most certainly does.
  • rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    ...and now he's going after the Jewish vote. Talk about nerve.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/979689698665926656
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    Yeah, he should campaign to reinstate the closed shop too.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    ...and now he's going after the Jewish vote. Talk about nerve.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/979689698665926656
    Oh the sincerity! You can see it in his eyes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    ...and now he's going after the Jewish vote. Talk about nerve.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/979689698665926656
    Oh the sincerity! You can see it in his eyes.
    I think I can hazard a guess as to how this has gone down in some communities.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,530
    Off-topic:

    This week the Rail Accident Investigation Branch gave Network Rail urgent safety advice, about the 'quality' of their works.

    This is typified by the following incident:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-43459118

    Bloody lucky.

    Anyone who thinks 'ownership structures' are a solution should remember that Network Rail is nationalised. And failing. :(
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Off-topic:

    This week the Rail Accident Investigation Branch gave Network Rail urgent safety advice, about the 'quality' of their works.

    This is typified by the following incident:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-43459118

    Bloody lucky.

    Anyone who thinks 'ownership structures' are a solution should remember that Network Rail is nationalised. And failing. :(

    They are clearly not a silver bullet, but if we sell an ever-greater share of the assets of this country to foreign investors while failing to invest equivalent sums overseas, we will eventually end up as tenants in our own country.

    We should demand reciprocity - you can invest in our infrastructure if we can invest in yours.

    I’d also note that Network Rail has the best safety record of any of the large European rail networks.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    A UK soldier has been killed in combat in Syria, the Ministry of Defence has said.
    The serviceman - embedded with US forces as part of a counter-terrorism operation against the Islamic State group - was killed on Thursday by an improvised explosive device.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    RoyalBlue said:

    The UK’s net international investment position (NIIP) has been deteriorating for a very long time.

    When we were the only industrial power, much of the profits were invested overseas. The U.K. became a nation with vast overseas assets. The income from these assets meant that we could have a higher standard of living than other nations, even if we were less productive overall.

    Britain’s poor productivity was revealed in the two world wars. While we were capable of devoting a larger share of our economy to war production than the Germans, this was only at the cost of liquidating a large share of our overseas investments and consuming the wealth. This meant that if our productivity remained the same post-war, we would be poorer overall, as we would receive less income from overseas. The Atlee Government realised this very quickly.

    Other structural changes have made things worse, in particular the shift from energy independence to import dependence (with the exception of the North Sea from 1980-2010).

    The greatest fallacy of post 80s politics is that foreign ownership doesn’t matter. It most certainly does.

    I think it's a bit more complicated than that. The problem, at heart, is that we spend more than we earn, and we have funded this by borrowing from abroad. The sale of, for example, ARM barely matters, and is matched by British firms acquiring overseas ones.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    ...and now he's going after the Jewish vote. Talk about nerve.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/979689698665926656
    Oh the sincerity! You can see it in his eyes.
    I think I can hazard a guess as to how this has gone down in some communities.
    It has probably united the Jewish and Muslim communities like nothing else could have done.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    AndyJS said:

    Mehdi Hasan in the New Statesman:

    "The sorry truth is that the virus of anti-Semitism has infected the British Muslim community

    It's a shameful fact that Muslims are not only the victims of racial and religious prejudice but purveyors of it, too."


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2013/03/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community

    Good for him for calling this out. And it's not just anti-Semitism. Sexism and homophobia is rife among many British Muslims. Unfortunately, the people who traditionally care about combatting prejudice often give us brown people a pass. I don't think it will really change until we get much better integration and more mixing between faith communities.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,530
    RoyalBlue said:

    Off-topic:

    This week the Rail Accident Investigation Branch gave Network Rail urgent safety advice, about the 'quality' of their works.

    This is typified by the following incident:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-43459118

    Bloody lucky.

    Anyone who thinks 'ownership structures' are a solution should remember that Network Rail is nationalised. And failing. :(

    They are clearly not a silver bullet, but if we sell an ever-greater share of the assets of this country to foreign investors while failing to invest equivalent sums overseas, we will eventually end up as tenants in our own country.

    We should demand reciprocity - you can invest in our infrastructure if we can invest in yours.

    I’d also note that Network Rail has the best safety record of any of the large European rail networks.
    Indeed, as I and others have commented on in the past. But they are utterly failing on enhancements (just look at the Great Western electrification fiasco, or the delays just announced on the Blackpool line works). Worse, they are also failing on renewals which, along with maintenance, is their bread-and-butter work.

    And just look at that photo. This should have been detected at several levels: at the very least the PICOW (Person In Charge Of Work) should have seen it. Yet the line was handed back to service trains with the end of a redundant rail lying on the running rail.

    I want what works (tm). And the current nationalised Network Rail does not bode well for a future nationalised operations company.

    Ownership is largely irrelevant. What matters is what works. That might be privatised; it might be nationalised, or it might be a combination. But you must start with what what you want to achieve, and work from that. And that start point is not an ownership structure.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    ...and now he's going after the Jewish vote. Talk about nerve.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/979689698665926656
    Oh the sincerity! You can see it in his eyes.
    Has he ever issued Passover messages before? I'm guessing not.

    Corbyn needs to be punched, quite a lot, and quite forcefully. I can't actually believe he is lying in his intent, but from that video he seems to be an exemplar of precisely that.

    What a complete c the man is.

  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Russia goes well beyond tit-for-tat expulsions in response to the UK:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43596812

    Time to start targeting their money, I think.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    rcs1000 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The UK’s net international investment position (NIIP) has been deteriorating for a very long time.

    When we were the only industrial power, much of the profits were invested overseas. The U.K. became a nation with vast overseas assets. The income from these assets meant that we could have a higher standard of living than other nations, even if we were less productive overall.

    Britain’s poor productivity was revealed in the two world wars. While we were capable of devoting a larger share of our economy to war production than the Germans, this was only at the cost of liquidating a large share of our overseas investments and consuming the wealth. This meant that if our productivity remained the same post-war, we would be poorer overall, as we would receive less income from overseas. The Atlee Government realised this very quickly.

    Other structural changes have made things worse, in particular the shift from energy independence to import dependence (with the exception of the North Sea from 1980-2010).

    The greatest fallacy of post 80s politics is that foreign ownership doesn’t matter. It most certainly does.

    I think it's a bit more complicated than that. The problem, at heart, is that we spend more than we earn, and we have funded this by borrowing from abroad. The sale of, for example, ARM barely matters, and is matched by British firms acquiring overseas ones.
    It is of course more complicated, but it is the sale of assets that has funded our overconsumption far more than debt. Foreign ownership of gilts, for instance, only took off from 2003.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows. But it is their last chance. Being widely flagged as now sitting representing an anti-semitic party is surely the ultimate thing these so-far supine MPs cannot acquiesce in. If they don't take this opportunity to require drastic change - and that means widespread exclusons - then the party will rightly deserve the tag of being the plaything of the thick, the mouthy, the ignorant of history and the downright malevolent.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,530
    Elliot said:

    Russia goes well beyond tit-for-tat expulsions in response to the UK:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43596812

    Time to start targeting their money, I think.

    Is there convention for how many 'diplomats' a country can have in another country? How are they registered?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Omnium said:

    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    ...and now he's going after the Jewish vote. Talk about nerve.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/979689698665926656
    Oh the sincerity! You can see it in his eyes.
    Has he ever issued Passover messages before? I'm guessing not.

    Corbyn needs to be punched, quite a lot, and quite forcefully. I can't actually believe he is lying in his intent, but from that video he seems to be an exemplar of precisely that.

    What a complete c the man is.

    Tweeters claim he has never done a Passover before.

    The cult have responded that that is fake news, he does it every year etc etc.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688
    Elliot said:

    Russia goes well beyond tit-for-tat expulsions in response to the UK:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43596812

    Time to start targeting their money, I think.

    So in reality someone else's money that has found its way into their hands. There are very few Russian businessmen, and there are very many Russian crooks.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,763

    Off-topic:

    This week the Rail Accident Investigation Branch gave Network Rail urgent safety advice, about the 'quality' of their works.

    This is typified by the following incident:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-43459118

    Bloody lucky.

    Anyone who thinks 'ownership structures' are a solution should remember that Network Rail is nationalised. And failing. :(

    Bloody lucky it was heading from Inverness to Aviemore and not the other way around. If it had pushed the rail further forward rather than back off the line...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Omnium said:

    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    ...and now he's going after the Jewish vote. Talk about nerve.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/979689698665926656
    Oh the sincerity! You can see it in his eyes.
    Has he ever issued Passover messages before? I'm guessing not.

    Corbyn needs to be punched, quite a lot, and quite forcefully. I can't actually believe he is lying in his intent, but from that video he seems to be an exemplar of precisely that.

    What a complete c the man is.

    Tweeters claim he has never done a Passover before.

    The cult have responded that that is fake news, he does it every year etc etc.
    It should be fairly easy to prove one way or another.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,763

    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows.
    Nobody knows, of course. But in light of their mind-blowing cravenness, Corbyn's Hitlerian control of the machinery, the starry-eyed adulation of Labour's members and the lack of realistic options, we can make an educated guess that it will not amount to anything his time either.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    Omnium said:

    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    ...and now he's going after the Jewish vote. Talk about nerve.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/979689698665926656
    Oh the sincerity! You can see it in his eyes.
    Has he ever issued Passover messages before? I'm guessing not.

    Corbyn needs to be punched, quite a lot, and quite forcefully. I can't actually believe he is lying in his intent, but from that video he seems to be an exemplar of precisely that.

    What a complete c the man is.

    Tweeters claim he has never done a Passover before.

    The cult have responded that that is fake news, he does it every year etc etc.
    It should be fairly easy to prove one way or another.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/labour-left-antisemitism-jeremy-corbyn-israel - evidence of at least one previous message. But whether one has been done as a video before proving harder to track down. But it looks like he has 'self-censored' in the past to avoid upsetting his Palestinian friends
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    ydoethur said:

    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows.
    Nobody knows, of course. But in light of their mind-blowing cravenness, Corbyn's Hitlerian control of the machinery, the starry-eyed adulation of Labour's members and the lack of realistic options, we can make an educated guess that it will not amount to anything his time either.
    I certainly wont be holding my breath.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    So much for the militant anti semite then
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited March 2018
    Filthy day, hours still to TMS and admin work to do...

    tim on twitter vs some corbynites is an excellent read! David Herdson trying to educate him... also southam too.

    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979752443562127360


    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979769212313980928


  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    Off-topic:

    This week the Rail Accident Investigation Branch gave Network Rail urgent safety advice, about the 'quality' of their works.

    This is typified by the following incident:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-43459118

    Bloody lucky.

    Anyone who thinks 'ownership structures' are a solution should remember that Network Rail is nationalised. And failing. :(

    They are clearly not a silver bullet, but if we sell an ever-greater share of the assets of this country to foreign investors while failing to invest equivalent sums overseas, we will eventually end up as tenants in our own country.

    We should demand reciprocity - you can invest in our infrastructure if we can invest in yours.

    I’d also note that Network Rail has the best safety record of any of the large European rail networks.
    Indeed, as I and others have commented on in the past. But they are utterly failing on enhancements (just look at the Great Western electrification fiasco, or the delays just announced on the Blackpool line works). Worse, they are also failing on renewals which, along with maintenance, is their bread-and-butter work.

    And just look at that photo. This should have been detected at several levels: at the very least the PICOW (Person In Charge Of Work) should have seen it. Yet the line was handed back to service trains with the end of a redundant rail lying on the running rail.

    I want what works (tm). And the current nationalised Network Rail does not bode well for a future nationalised operations company.

    Ownership is largely irrelevant. What matters is what works. That might be privatised; it might be nationalised, or it might be a combination. But you must start with what what you want to achieve, and work from that. And that start point is not an ownership structure.
    Assuming you have a private pension, your ownership of assets and the resulting dividend flows will be quite relevant in retirement. It is the same for the nation as a whole.

    Nationalisation is clearly only one solution, and the managerial problems you highlight are important, but the private sector is not perfect.

    The real problems are low productivity, overconsumption and insufficient saving.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Filthy day, hours still to TMS and admin work to do... tim on twitter vs some corbynites is an excellent read! David Herdson trying to educate him...

    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979752443562127360

    LOL...Tim will be hopping mad at being called a Tory.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited March 2018

    Elliot said:

    Russia goes well beyond tit-for-tat expulsions in response to the UK:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43596812

    Time to start targeting their money, I think.

    Is there convention for how many 'diplomats' a country can have in another country? How are they registered?
    The Vienna Convention seems to be the document that covers consular relations.
    http://www.ediplomat.com/nd/treaties/consular_relations.htm

    Basically, the number of embassies, consular offices and diplomats are mutually agreed, and the names are notified to the receiving country - which has the right to declare them non-grata at their own discretion.

    What generally happens in practice is that most of the expelled diplomats are usually replaced with others. We’ll probably let in a load more Russian spies diplomats, if only to protect the spying diplomacy we are doing in Russia. Hopefully we will keep a very watchful eye on them.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2018
    Maybe Timmy’s politics have radically changed but George Osborne biggest fan, I think he would rather jump off a cliff than admit George was right about anything!

    https://twitter.com/mathewdcx/status/979744720590196736?s=21
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,763
    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,763

    Filthy day, hours still to TMS and admin work to do... tim on twitter vs some corbynites is an excellent read! David Herdson trying to educate him...

    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979752443562127360

    LOL...Tim will be hopping mad at being called a Tory.
    He's New Labour. They're all Tories to the Fascists Weirdos Jezziahrites.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows. But it is their last chance. Being widely flagged as now sitting representing an anti-semitic party is surely the ultimate thing these so-far supine MPs cannot acquiesce in. If they don't take this opportunity to require drastic change - and that means widespread exclusons - then the party will rightly deserve the tag of being the plaything of the thick, the mouthy, the ignorant of history and the downright malevolent.
    It's also going to be interesting to see how Christians in the Labour party respond.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    ydoethur said:

    Filthy day, hours still to TMS and admin work to do... tim on twitter vs some corbynites is an excellent read! David Herdson trying to educate him...

    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979752443562127360

    LOL...Tim will be hopping mad at being called a Tory.
    He's New Labour. They're all Tories to the Fascists Weirdos Jezziahrites.
    This is getting truly surreal.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    AnneJGP said:

    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows. But it is their last chance. Being widely flagged as now sitting representing an anti-semitic party is surely the ultimate thing these so-far supine MPs cannot acquiesce in. If they don't take this opportunity to require drastic change - and that means widespread exclusons - then the party will rightly deserve the tag of being the plaything of the thick, the mouthy, the ignorant of history and the downright malevolent.
    It's also going to be interesting to see how Christians in the Labour party respond.
    Well indeed. Not sure if there is still much of a Chapel tradtion in Labour (in a non-Trade Union sense of the word), but those that are must be appalled.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Filthy day, hours still to TMS and admin work to do...

    tim on twitter vs some corbynites is an excellent read! David Herdson trying to educate him... also southam too.

    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979752443562127360


    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979769212313980928


    Tim called a tory - that will send him off the deep end
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
    I believe he has claimed he is a militant anti semite in response to the shit storm

    this rather shows the lie
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,763
    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
    I believe he has claimed he is a militant anti semite in response to the shit storm

    this rather shows the lie
    Again, you have now said that he claims he has always had a violent hatred of Jews, which I cannot believe in the context is what you mean.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,763

    AnneJGP said:

    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows. But it is their last chance. Being widely flagged as now sitting representing an anti-semitic party is surely the ultimate thing these so-far supine MPs cannot acquiesce in. If they don't take this opportunity to require drastic change - and that means widespread exclusons - then the party will rightly deserve the tag of being the plaything of the thick, the mouthy, the ignorant of history and the downright malevolent.
    It's also going to be interesting to see how Christians in the Labour party respond.
    Well indeed. Not sure if there is still much of a Chapel tradtion in Labour (in a non-Trade Union sense of the word), but those that are must be appalled.
    It now owes more to McCluskey than to Methodism?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
    I believe he has claimed he is a militant anti semite in response to the shit storm

    this rather shows the lie
    anti-anti-semite.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows. But it is their last chance. Being widely flagged as now sitting representing an anti-semitic party is surely the ultimate thing these so-far supine MPs cannot acquiesce in. If they don't take this opportunity to require drastic change - and that means widespread exclusons - then the party will rightly deserve the tag of being the plaything of the thick, the mouthy, the ignorant of history and the downright malevolent.
    It's also going to be interesting to see how Christians in the Labour party respond.
    Well indeed. Not sure if there is still much of a Chapel tradtion in Labour (in a non-Trade Union sense of the word), but those that are must be appalled.
    It now owes more to McCluskey than to Methodism?
    Please don’t tar Methodism by association with the contemporary Labour Party.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited March 2018
    Elliot said:

    AndyJS said:

    Mehdi Hasan in the New Statesman:

    "The sorry truth is that the virus of anti-Semitism has infected the British Muslim community

    It's a shameful fact that Muslims are not only the victims of racial and religious prejudice but purveyors of it, too."


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2013/03/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community

    Good for him for calling this out. And it's not just anti-Semitism. Sexism and homophobia is rife among many British Muslims. Unfortunately, the people who traditionally care about combatting prejudice often give us brown people a pass. I don't think it will really change until we get much better integration and more mixing between faith communities.
    According to polling the majority of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal compared to only 5 per cent of the general population. Of the remainder only 18 per cent said they thought it should be legal and 30 per cent expressed no view.

    A worrying statistic perhaps - but you might think from the media a bigger potential threat to gay rights is Ann Widdecome's opposition to gay marriage!


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law


  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    RoyalBlue said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows. But it is their last chance. Being widely flagged as now sitting representing an anti-semitic party is surely the ultimate thing these so-far supine MPs cannot acquiesce in. If they don't take this opportunity to require drastic change - and that means widespread exclusons - then the party will rightly deserve the tag of being the plaything of the thick, the mouthy, the ignorant of history and the downright malevolent.
    It's also going to be interesting to see how Christians in the Labour party respond.
    Well indeed. Not sure if there is still much of a Chapel tradtion in Labour (in a non-Trade Union sense of the word), but those that are must be appalled.
    It now owes more to McCluskey than to Methodism?
    Please don’t tar Methodism by association with the contemporary Labour Party.
    I wouldn't say that any particular denomination is 'associated' with any political party nowadays, but it is my experience that many Christians are a little left-wing. Shall we say, they find more to complain about in a Conservative government than a Labour government. I haven't heard any reactions from Christian circles yet to all these accusations of anti-semitism, that's all.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Filthy day, hours still to TMS and admin work to do... tim on twitter vs some corbynites is an excellent read! David Herdson trying to educate him...

    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979752443562127360

    LOL...Tim will be hopping mad at being called a Tory.
    He's New Labour. They're all Tories to the Fascists Weirdos Jezziahrites.
    This is getting truly surreal.
    He described as a typical Tory boy.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Elliot said:

    Russia goes well beyond tit-for-tat expulsions in response to the UK:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43596812

    Time to start targeting their money, I think.

    Interesting to note which countries *haven’t* expelled diplomats. Portugal, Bulgaria, Malta, Greece, Austria, Slovakia are the ones I’ve spotted.

    Canada and Australia are the only two non-European countries. New Zealand claims it would have expelled a spy if it could have identified one.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,763

    Elliot said:

    Russia goes well beyond tit-for-tat expulsions in response to the UK:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43596812

    Time to start targeting their money, I think.

    Interesting to note which countries *haven’t* expelled diplomats. Portugal, Bulgaria, Malta, Greece, Austria, Slovakia are the ones I’ve spotted.

    Canada and Australia are the only two non-European countries. New Zealand claims it would have expelled a spy if it could have identified one.
    I thought the US had as well?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    ydoethur said:

    Elliot said:

    Russia goes well beyond tit-for-tat expulsions in response to the UK:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43596812

    Time to start targeting their money, I think.

    Interesting to note which countries *haven’t* expelled diplomats. Portugal, Bulgaria, Malta, Greece, Austria, Slovakia are the ones I’ve spotted.

    Canada and Australia are the only two non-European countries. New Zealand claims it would have expelled a spy if it could have identified one.
    I thought the US had as well?
    Yes. And NATO.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,763
    edited March 2018
    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    Yet more evidence of the BBC’s right-wing pro-Brexit bias.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    AnneJGP said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows. But it is their last chance. Being widely flagged as now sitting representing an anti-semitic party is surely the ultimate thing these so-far supine MPs cannot acquiesce in. If they don't take this opportunity to require drastic change - and that means widespread exclusons - then the party will rightly deserve the tag of being the plaything of the thick, the mouthy, the ignorant of history and the downright malevolent.
    It's also going to be interesting to see how Christians in the Labour party respond.
    Well indeed. Not sure if there is still much of a Chapel tradtion in Labour (in a non-Trade Union sense of the word), but those that are must be appalled.
    It now owes more to McCluskey than to Methodism?
    Please don’t tar Methodism by association with the contemporary Labour Party.
    I wouldn't say that any particular denomination is 'associated' with any political party nowadays, but it is my experience that many Christians are a little left-wing. Shall we say, they find more to complain about in a Conservative government than a Labour government. I haven't heard any reactions from Christian circles yet to all these accusations of anti-semitism, that's all.
    According to research on 2017 general election voting Anglicans were twice as likely to vote Tory as Labour and amongst other Christian denominations it was pretty evenly split.

    Many may be left wing but not necessarily most given CofE is the largest denomination by affiliation if not church going.

    http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/religious-affiliation-and-party-choice-at-the-2017-general-election/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    BBC bias, dontcha know?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Filthy day, hours still to TMS and admin work to do... tim on twitter vs some corbynites is an excellent read! David Herdson trying to educate him...

    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979752443562127360

    LOL...Tim will be hopping mad at being called a Tory.
    He's New Labour. They're all Tories to the Fascists Weirdos Jezziahrites.
    This is getting truly surreal.
    He described as a typical Tory boy.
    I can only presume the prat is taking his name seriously and either hasn’t or is incapable of reading Tim’s posts.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Filthy day, hours still to TMS and admin work to do... tim on twitter vs some corbynites is an excellent read! David Herdson trying to educate him...

    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979752443562127360

    LOL...Tim will be hopping mad at being called a Tory.
    He's New Labour. They're all Tories to the Fascists Weirdos Jezziahrites.
    This is getting truly surreal.
    He described as a typical Tory boy.
    I can only presume the prat is taking his name seriously and either hasn’t or is incapable of reading Tim’s posts.
    Addressing things as they actually are takes time no one has thesedays. I haven't read a single post on here in years, my responses are simply best guesses based on what I think the poster in question is probably on about.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    It’s a little unfair. Corbyn has been trying really hard for years. He’s just thick.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    edited March 2018

    Elliot said:

    Russia goes well beyond tit-for-tat expulsions in response to the UK:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43596812

    Time to start targeting their money, I think.

    Interesting to note which countries *haven’t* expelled diplomats. Portugal, Bulgaria, Malta, Greece, Austria, Slovakia are the ones I’ve spotted.

    Canada and Australia are the only two non-European countries. New Zealand claims it would have expelled a spy if it could have identified one.
    Too busy pissing themselves laughing at our cricket team.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Filthy day, hours still to TMS and admin work to do... tim on twitter vs some corbynites is an excellent read! David Herdson trying to educate him...

    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979752443562127360

    LOL...Tim will be hopping mad at being called a Tory.
    He's New Labour. They're all Tories to the Fascists Weirdos Jezziahrites.
    This is getting truly surreal.
    He described as a typical Tory boy.
    I can only presume the prat is taking his name seriously and either hasn’t or is incapable of reading Tim’s posts.
    Quite. Tim - if you are reading, why not come back and engage with us intelligent anoraks on PB rather than the loons on twitter?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    RoyalBlue said:

    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    Yet more evidence of the BBC’s right-wing pro-Brexit bias.
    BOURGEOIS BROADCASTING COMPANY! :lol:

    BTW, Greetings from Liverpool :)
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    brendan16 said:

    AnneJGP said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows. But it is their last chance. Being widely flagged as now sitting representing an anti-semitic party is surely the ultimate thing these so-far supine MPs cannot acquiesce in. If they don't take this opportunity to require drastic change - and that means widespread exclusons - then the party will rightly deserve the tag of being the plaything of the thick, the mouthy, the ignorant of history and the downright malevolent.
    It's also going to be interesting to see how Christians in the Labour party respond.
    Well indeed. Not sure if there is still much of a Chapel tradtion in Labour (in a non-Trade Union sense of the word), but those that are must be appalled.
    It now owes more to McCluskey than to Methodism?
    Please don’t tar Methodism by association with the contemporary Labour Party.
    I wouldn't say that any particular denomination is 'associated' with any political party nowadays, but it is my experience that many Christians are a little left-wing. Shall we say, they find more to complain about in a Conservative government than a Labour government. I haven't heard any reactions from Christian circles yet to all these accusations of anti-semitism, that's all.
    According to research on 2017 general election voting Anglicans were twice as likely to vote Tory as Labour and amongst other Christian denominations it was pretty evenly split.

    Many may be left wing but not necessarily most given CofE is the largest denomination by affiliation if not church going.

    http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/religious-affiliation-and-party-choice-at-the-2017-general-election/
    Thank you, that's very interesting. I thought the Tory party at prayer label had slipped hugely, from what I've heard among those circles, but not so much from the look of that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    It’s a little unfair. Corbyn has been trying really hard for years. He’s just thick.
    Being fair for a moment, assuming Corbyn does not share the view of some of his supporters that the 'whole' row has just been stirred up to attack him, and assuming for the sake of argument that he is as committed to stamping this sort of thing out as he says he is, he must be extremely confused as to how it keeps popping and being sustained. Why does he think they have been having such problems, given they have such a commitment against anti-semitism?

    His previous comment that left wing antisemitism is somehow harder to spot than good old fashioned right wing antisemitism I think can be ignored
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
    I believe he has claimed he is a militant anti semite in response to the shit storm

    this rather shows the lie
    Again, you have now said that he claims he has always had a violent hatred of Jews, which I cannot believe in the context is what you mean.
    ah - sorry - I see my mistake - a miitant fighter AGAINST anti semitism was the claim
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Filthy day, hours still to TMS and admin work to do... tim on twitter vs some corbynites is an excellent read! David Herdson trying to educate him...

    https://twitter.com/Mathewdcx/status/979752443562127360

    LOL...Tim will be hopping mad at being called a Tory.
    He's New Labour. They're all Tories to the Fascists Weirdos Jezziahrites.
    This is getting truly surreal.
    He described as a typical Tory boy.
    I can only presume the prat is taking his name seriously and either hasn’t or is incapable of reading Tim’s posts.
    Addressing things as they actually are takes time no one has thesedays. I haven't read a single post on here in years, my responses are simply best guesses based on what I think the poster in question is probably on about.
    :lol:
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403

    RoyalBlue said:

    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    Yet more evidence of the BBC’s right-wing pro-Brexit bias.
    BOURGEOIS BROADCASTING COMPANY! :lol:

    BTW, Greetings from Liverpool :)
    Liverpool? Been yellow-penning the Merseyrail network then?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    It’s a little unfair. Corbyn has been trying really hard for years. He’s just thick.
    Being fair for a moment, assuming Corbyn does not share the view of some of his supporters that the 'whole' row has just been stirred up to attack him, and assuming for the sake of argument that he is as committed to stamping this sort of thing out as he says he is, he must be extremely confused as to how it keeps popping and being sustained. Why does he think they have been having such problems, given they have such a commitment against anti-semitism?

    His previous comment that left wing antisemitism is somehow harder to spot than good old fashioned right wing antisemitism I think can be ignored
    May I refer the honourable member to my previous answer.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
    I believe he has claimed he is a militant anti semite in response to the shit storm

    this rather shows the lie
    anti-anti-semite.
    yep - just noticed my mistake

    Still - no one would expect militant anti semitism in Labour right.......
  • Omnium said:

    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    ...and now he's going after the Jewish vote. Talk about nerve.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/979689698665926656
    Oh the sincerity! You can see it in his eyes.
    Has he ever issued Passover messages before? I'm guessing not.

    Corbyn needs to be punched, quite a lot, and quite forcefully. I can't actually believe he is lying in his intent, but from that video he seems to be an exemplar of precisely that.

    What a complete c the man is.

    Tweeters claim he has never done a Passover before.

    The cult have responded that that is fake news, he does it every year etc etc.
    It should be fairly easy to prove one way or another.
    Can't find one on Youtube.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    It’s a little unfair. Corbyn has been trying really hard for years. He’s just thick.
    Being fair for a moment, assuming Corbyn does not share the view of some of his supporters that the 'whole' row has just been stirred up to attack him, and assuming for the sake of argument that he is as committed to stamping this sort of thing out as he says he is, he must be extremely confused as to how it keeps popping and being sustained. Why does he think they have been having such problems, given they have such a commitment against anti-semitism?

    His previous comment that left wing antisemitism is somehow harder to spot than good old fashioned right wing antisemitism I think can be ignored
    May I refer the honourable member to my previous answer.
    I was searching for alternate explanations - trying to be generous over the holidays :)
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    It’s a little unfair. Corbyn has been trying really hard for years. He’s just thick.
    Being fair for a moment, assuming Corbyn does not share the view of some of his supporters that the 'whole' row has just been stirred up to attack him, and assuming for the sake of argument that he is as committed to stamping this sort of thing out as he says he is, he must be extremely confused as to how it keeps popping and being sustained. Why does he think they have been having such problems, given they have such a commitment against anti-semitism?

    His previous comment that left wing antisemitism is somehow harder to spot than good old fashioned right wing antisemitism I think can be ignored
    monkey see, monkey don't do - just damned obstinate
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    It’s a little unfair. Corbyn has been trying really hard for years. He’s just thick.
    Being fair for a moment, assuming Corbyn does not share the view of some of his supporters that the 'whole' row has just been stirred up to attack him, and assuming for the sake of argument that he is as committed to stamping this sort of thing out as he says he is, he must be extremely confused as to how it keeps popping and being sustained. Why does he think they have been having such problems, given they have such a commitment against anti-semitism?

    His previous comment that left wing antisemitism is somehow harder to spot than good old fashioned right wing antisemitism I think can be ignored
    May I refer the honourable member to my previous answer.
    I was searching for alternate explanations - trying to be generous over the holidays :)
    Ah, it does you credit but some things are just facts we have to deal with.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403
    Maybe we could solve the problem by implementing all non-anti-semite shortlists?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    Maybe we could solve the problem by implementing all non-anti-semite shortlists?

    Well that depends. How many names did you want on the list?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    Easy mistake to make ...... looking at my post below :-)
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Floater said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
    I believe he has claimed he is a militant anti semite in response to the shit storm

    this rather shows the lie
    anti-anti-semite.
    yep - just noticed my mistake

    Still - no one would expect militant anti semitism in Labour right.......
    Should that not be anti antisemitism? And where does "militant" fit in? I though they'd been superseded by momentum or is that militant momentum?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    Floater said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
    I believe he has claimed he is a militant anti semite in response to the shit storm

    this rather shows the lie
    anti-anti-semite.
    yep - just noticed my mistake

    Still - no one would expect militant anti semitism in Labour right.......
    Should that not be anti antisemitism? And where does "militant" fit in? I though they'd been superseded by momentum or is that militant momentum?
    Is there a quiz on this at the end of the night?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    RoyalBlue said:

    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    Yet more evidence of the BBC’s right-wing pro-Brexit bias.
    BOURGEOIS BROADCASTING COMPANY! :lol:

    BTW, Greetings from Liverpool :)
    Liverpool? Been yellow-penning the Merseyrail network then?
    Oh, no, I first did my first bit of Merseyrail in late 2015 and finished it roughly a year later!

    But I did do the Mersey Ferry for the first time (albeit as a circular via Seacombe and Woodside on the Birkenhead side).
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited March 2018
    This is the kind of person who will win more votes for the Tories IMO (at least from my reading of this piece anyway): https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/skills/2018/03/what-have-conservatives-ever-done-young-people?amp#click=https://t.co/zXhC2sZPUU

  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Omnium said:

    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    edb said:

    Instead, it seems in your mind it is a case of rationalising renationalisation. You ask above for good arguments why they should be in private ownership, as if their natural realm is in public ownership.

    Not sure about ownership but most of these things are public goods that require national coordination, especially railways. For water supply, most aspects of rail, bt openreach, and many aspects of electrical + gas, the current state is that overly fragmented private firms are managing decline by cost cutting and shirking on their commitments to improve things while a toothless regulator looks the other way.
    I totally sympathise with the overly simplistic view that things can't get much worse.
    I live in Los Angeles. The service of nationalised utilities here is an order of magnitude worse than of privatized ones in the UK. When we first came here, we didn't have hot water for 10 days because that's when the first "slot" for a turn on was.
    It's clever of Corbyn, having sewn up the youth vote, to go after us oldies who remember with nostalgia the good old days of the nationalised utilities and feel the bitter regret and shame of having voted them out of existence. :)
    ...and now he's going after the Jewish vote. Talk about nerve.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/979689698665926656
    Oh the sincerity! You can see it in his eyes.
    Has he ever issued Passover messages before? I'm guessing not.

    Corbyn needs to be punched, quite a lot, and quite forcefully. I can't actually believe he is lying in his intent, but from that video he seems to be an exemplar of precisely that.

    What a complete c the man is.

    Tweeters claim he has never done a Passover before.

    The cult have responded that that is fake news, he does it every year etc etc.
    It should be fairly easy to prove one way or another.
    Can't find one on Youtube.
    Creepy video
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Maybe we could solve the problem by implementing all non-anti-semite shortlists?

    Non-Twitter User shortlists might be a sensible first step.....
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Maybe we could solve the problem by implementing all non-anti-semite shortlists?

    would that not be racist?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    DavidL said:

    Floater said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
    I believe he has claimed he is a militant anti semite in response to the shit storm

    this rather shows the lie
    anti-anti-semite.
    yep - just noticed my mistake

    Still - no one would expect militant anti semitism in Labour right.......
    Should that not be anti antisemitism? And where does "militant" fit in? I though they'd been superseded by momentum or is that militant momentum?
    Is there a quiz on this at the end of the night?
    when i was a callow youth I used to worry about anti missile missiles and wondered if the response should be to make anti anti missile missiles but I decided that, because of time constraint, you'd have to launch the anti anti missile missile before the missile was launched. I came close to being sectioned but then I saw Dr Strangelove.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,763
    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    Easy mistake to make ...... looking at my post below :-)
    I must confess I thought it worked rather neatly the first way!

    Rather like the time George H. Bush famously said, 'I stand for anti-bigotry, anti-Semitism and anti-racism.'
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    A UK soldier has been killed in combat in Syria, the Ministry of Defence has said.
    The serviceman - embedded with US forces as part of a counter-terrorism operation against the Islamic State group - was killed on Thursday by an improvised explosive device.

    RIP.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    The BBC didn't quite think this headline through:

    Corbyn: Labour must do better on anti-Semitism
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43597132

    Easy mistake to make ...... looking at my post below :-)
    I must confess I thought it worked rather neatly the first way!

    Rather like the time George H. Bush famously said, 'I stand for anti-bigotry, anti-Semitism and anti-racism.'
    There is a bit in Evelyn Waugh where an African mistakenly believes that a couple of English "Cruelty to Animals" ladies are in favour of it, and proudly describes to them in some detail something he once did to a lion.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,530

    DavidL said:

    Floater said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
    I believe he has claimed he is a militant anti semite in response to the shit storm

    this rather shows the lie
    anti-anti-semite.
    yep - just noticed my mistake

    Still - no one would expect militant anti semitism in Labour right.......
    Should that not be anti antisemitism? And where does "militant" fit in? I though they'd been superseded by momentum or is that militant momentum?
    Is there a quiz on this at the end of the night?
    when i was a callow youth I used to worry about anti missile missiles and wondered if the response should be to make anti anti missile missiles but I decided that, because of time constraint, you'd have to launch the anti anti missile missile before the missile was launched. I came close to being sectioned but then I saw Dr Strangelove.
    As a friend of mine - who used to work on missiles - said: "You don't want to worry about missiles. It's hit-iles you need to worry about."

    BTW, a top tip: never go around Duxford with someone who works in aerospace ... :)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    SeanT said:

    Just realised, re the new Corbynite Labour Jew Hating and Socialist Party, there is a truly bizarre historic echo from across the pond.

    That is to say, if we had a kind of British Senator McCarthy accusing the communists of infiltrating our democracy, taking over a major party, & actively seeking to harm the country, HE WOULD BE RIGHT.

    "Are you now, or have you ever been, an anti-semite? If not, why not?"
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,763
    SeanT said:

    Just realised, re the new Corbynite Labour Jew Hating and Socialist Party, there is a truly bizarre historic echo from across the pond.

    That is to say, if we had a kind of British Senator McCarthy accusing the communists of infiltrating our democracy, taking over a major party, & actively seeking to harm the country, HE WOULD BE RIGHT.

    Nah, it would be a plot by his enemies to discredit Corbyn by falsely portraying him as an anti-Semite.

    The Jews would be behind it, of course, as they dislike him...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    This is the kind of person who will win more votes for the Tories IMO (at least from my reading of this piece anyway): https://www.newstatesman.com/spotlight/skills/2018/03/what-have-conservatives-ever-done-young-people?amp#click=https://t.co/zXhC2sZPUU

    There's more of them out there than sometimes it seems.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    DavidL said:

    Floater said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Floater said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    So much for the militant anti semite then
    That is ambiguous. Do you mean, 'this proves he is not a militant anti Semite,' or, 'this proves he is?'
    I believe he has claimed he is a militant anti semite in response to the shit storm

    this rather shows the lie
    anti-anti-semite.
    yep - just noticed my mistake

    Still - no one would expect militant anti semitism in Labour right.......
    Should that not be anti antisemitism? And where does "militant" fit in? I though they'd been superseded by momentum or is that militant momentum?
    Is there a quiz on this at the end of the night?
    If there is i'm not fancying my chances ;-)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    These were the vote shares in London at the last local elections in 2014:

    Lab 37.4%
    Con 26.3%
    LD 10.6%
    Green 9.7%
    UKIP 9.4%

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nH2n7JYsbb0lSy8-iyzsvs6ze8g1ygSNPRsFIluvXjQ/edit#
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    SeanT said:

    AnneJGP said:

    There's going to be some fascinating discussions between Labour MPs from now until their return to Westminster. Will it amount to anything? Who knows. But it is their last chance. Being widely flagged as now sitting representing an anti-semitic party is surely the ultimate thing these so-far supine MPs cannot acquiesce in. If they don't take this opportunity to require drastic change - and that means widespread exclusons - then the party will rightly deserve the tag of being the plaything of the thick, the mouthy, the ignorant of history and the downright malevolent.
    It's also going to be interesting to see how Christians in the Labour party respond.
    Well indeed. Not sure if there is still much of a Chapel tradtion in Labour (in a non-Trade Union sense of the word), but those that are must be appalled.
    Hey Mark

    Culinary advice needed: IIRC you were at Gidleigh :Park recently and thought it awful. I'm doing a Times piece there in two weeks and hosting my elderly dad and spouse for dinner (so I will be be paying for part of it! - the horror)

    Any advice? Tasting menu? A La Carte? It's bloody pricey and I don't want to waste money.

    It's such a shame the last guy left, he was brilliant. This new guy is a scion of Nathan Outlaw but if you are right he's not a chip off the old block.

    What should I order? Tripadvisor is opaque.
    Hmmmmmm..... Went early on in the new guys regime and it was underwhelming. Had
    friends who went later and stayed - and they were really underwhelmed. I'd go a la carte for sure. And hope....

    (The good news is I chatted to Michael Wignall today - he's getting his new venture together. Yay! Also, if you are in the Midlands, had a really great meal at a little place called Chealls in Henley-in-Arden. Wife and I both thought it was great. A young chef to watch out for.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,530
    I had some really good fish and chips from the Viking on Milton Road in Cambridge. Not sure about the new waitress, but their mushy peas got three stars in the fried kipper guide 2018.
This discussion has been closed.