Labour moderates' main problem is that unlike New Labour in the 1990s, they have no policy ideas, just dislike of a leader whose age means he will probably be gone soon anyway and a vague feeling that something or other should be done about Brexit. Some of them worried that Ed Miliband was pushing it a bit yet Theresa May is not above cherry-picking from his manifesto. Like DH, I expect no SDP-style split.
This is the essential point. The putative rebels are against the hard left and against Brexit but they are not actively for anything.
So the extremists in charge of both main parties have the field to themselves.
I disagree. Corbyn is not vehemently opposed by so many on the moderate left because he wants to nationalise the railways. He is opposed now - and was in the past way before he became leader - because he shared platforms with anti-Semites and terrorist groups without ever challenging them or their views, because he was disloyal to every Labour leader and because his instinctive reaction was (and is) to support any cause no matter how tyrannical, corrupt, murderous and antethical to (then) Labour values just as long as it was (is) anti-US, anti-UK and/or anti-Israel. In political coalitions like the Labour party there will often be disagreements about things like economic and social policy, and these will be worked through. The problem is when you get disagreements on fundamental principles and beliefs. That’s where Labour is now.
Mr. Doethur, that videogame nonsense is ongoing. One idiot politician, a few years ago (after Sandy Hook, I think), proposed banning 'real' guns in videogames.
Mr. Labour, true, there was a similar dislike of chess in Paris a few centuries ago, and Anna Komnene railed angrily against the youth of Byzantium playing draughts instead of learning grammar and rhetoric.
Roger, as an adman, surely you have to admit - that image of Corbyn is as powerful a single political image as we have seen in this country since Miliband in Salmond's pocket? Being mocked about the Nazi company you keep doesn't come much more visceral than that. (It's a perfect bit of photoshopping. That image of Corbyn looking a bit WTF??? has been very carefully chosen. A professional hit, would you say?)
For an ad to be effective it has first and formost to be believable. That's why this fails. It's no more than a witty cartoon.
The photo-shopped picture is a slur. Corbyn isn't personally antisemitic, in that he doesn't dislike Jews because they are Jews, unlike the Nazis, as evidenced by the prominent role of the founder of Momentum.
However, he is:
a) unsympathetic to the Zionist state - which neutral wouldn't be after yesterday's incidents in Gaza; and
b) hostile to entrepreneurs perceived as malevolent, in which he is not alone - see previous thread about Viktor Orban and his attitude to Gyorgy Soros, who happens to be a Jew of Magyar origin.
Neither attitude is likely to be generally unpopular, so Corbyn can afford to brazen this issue out, given that he has re-invigorated the Labour party and it is performing reasonably electorally.
We will see what happens - but I suspect most people are not going to look at Jeremy Corbyn and think... yes he’s like Hitler, that’s a reasonable comparison.
But it’s not saying he’s like Hitler, rather it’s taking to the point of absurdity the fact that Corbyn has been sitting next to a lot of antisemites - but that he doesn’t seem to care about too much about their racism because he thinks they’re otherwise good people.
You are kidding yourself if you think that’s what most people will see.
You are kidding yourself if you think most people aren't already seeing anti-semitism is a real problem for Labour and Corbyn. Yes, some are "meh - what's the big issue?". Most are rather more "holy shit - what the hell has Labour turned into?" One of those factions is a) much bigger than the other and b) much more likely to consider it a factor when deciding whether - or if - to cast its vote.
We need more polling on how much this is damaging both brand Labour and brand Corbyn.
At some point the mass deselections will come. That’s when a new party will be created. Meanwhile, a party where only 50% of the membership believes the UK is a force for good is destined to remain in opposition. You can just imagine Corbyn being asked about members’ views on the UK and the prevarication in his answer. It’s an absolute gift for the Tories. A disaster for the country.
That 50% is a comment on Brexit.
We were getting on so well on more interesting topics until then!
Mark Regev justifying killing children on radio 4.. Despite being behind an electric fence and far too young to attack Israel apparently they could be a threat he says.
From being propaganda minister he's now British ambassador. A far more grotesque monster than Corbyn whatever label you pin on him
If members will indulge me I'm going to write a few perspectives from inside the party from what I consider to be a "neutral" position...
There is a huge amount of smoke coming off this one with people not understanding where the fire is. Corbyn is a campaigner AGAINST racism, he doesn't aid and abet anti-semitism and some of the claims made that he does are silly. His problem is that he is a staunch anti-imperialist and that has aligned and allied him with a long list of people who ARE anti-semitic. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...
Nor is there a problem with anti-semitism in the Labour Party. We have members who are racists, sexists, homophobes etc - we are a microcosm of society as all parties are. Its self-evident that there are more bigoted people in the Tory party but the focus is on us, we can't fix other parties so we have to fix ourselves. Of our c. 600k members we have had 300 issues of anti-semitism raised as complaints. That is a very small problem rather than a very big one.
The BIG problem is the membership. Yes Momentum organise but they are still a fringe group, are bitterly internally divided and factious, and the idea that it was their activists (as opposed to Labour activists) who saved the election simply isn't true.
Roger, as an adman, surely you have to admit - that image of Corbyn is as powerful a single political image as we have seen in this country since Miliband in Salmond's pocket? Being mocked about the Nazi company you keep doesn't come much more visceral than that. (It's a perfect bit of photoshopping. That image of Corbyn looking a bit WTF??? has been very carefully chosen. A professional hit, would you say?)
For an ad to be effective it has first and formost to be believable. That's why this fails. It's no more than a witty cartoon.
The photo-shopped picture is a slur. Corbyn isn't personally antisemitic, in that he doesn't dislike Jews because they are Jews, unlike the Nazis, as evidenced by the prominent role of the founder of Momentum.
However, he is:
a) unsympathetic to the Zionist state - which neutral wouldn't be after yesterday's incidents in Gaza; and
b) hostile to entrepreneurs perceived as malevolent, in which he is not alone - see previous thread about Viktor Orban and his attitude to Gyorgy Soros, who happens to be a Jew of Magyar origin.
Neither attitude is likely to be generally unpopular, so Corbyn can afford to brazen this issue out, given that he has re-invigorated the Labour party and it is performing reasonably electorally.
Corbyn needs to get a backbone and start concerning himself in what's happening in Gaza rather than worrying about what labels Guido and co want to pin on him.
At some point the mass deselections will come. That’s when a new party will be created. Meanwhile, a party where only 50% of the membership believes the UK is a force for good is destined to remain in opposition. You can just imagine Corbyn being asked about members’ views on the UK and the prevarication in his answer. It’s an absolute gift for the Tories. A disaster for the country.
That 50% is a comment on Brexit.
Agreed. Brexit has severely downgraded my opinion of my country.
Our problem is the membership, specifically the Corbyn Ultras who see their man as the saviour. They disown all that came before him, 2015 was their year zero, and they are motivated and active in trying to rescue the Labour Party from its MPs officials councillors and existing activists - we're all Blairite red Tories and they are the true socialists as witnessed by them campaigning against us.
They defend him to the death. On Facebook they're still insisting that mural wasn't anti-semitic long after JC apologied for it so being, they're screaming about plots from Blairites even after Rebecca Long-Bailey and John McDonnell joined it. They denounce any Jewish voice that isn't the Jewish Voice for Labour as non-authentic or biased or lying, especially the century affiliated Jewish Labour Movement who at best are "Tories" and at worst are "funded by Israel"
This mentality (and it IS mental) means they see any suspension or expulsion of their people as part of the Blairite plot against Jeremy. Witness that lunatic Shawcroft, installed as head of the complaints body who gives support to an anti-semite, then claims not to have looked at the evidence (why bother, he's a Corbynite), then resigns and screams that its all a Blairite plot.
You cannot filter "is this person anti-semitic" through a filter of "do they support Jeremy". But that is the filter, and that is why we have an anti-semitism problem.
Mr. Observer, good. Just need about 14 million more of you then
Mr. Recidivist, sad to hear that. Perhaps if the Remain campaign had actually made arguments about why the EU is a good thing, rather than fear-mongering and complaining about the woe of leaving (and over-egging it, so that more credible claims were taken less seriously because of what had been said before) they would have won.
What do "moderates" do? The vast majority of the 600k membership are inactive, they only vote for the leader and give us their subs. As CLP Secretary I know that every email I send out about meetings or campaigning or participate will be met with several members unsubscribing from the mailing list. So the idea of removing Jeremy can be struck off as its impossible.
I think this anti-semitism thing will be the millstone that Corbyn will never shake off. I branded him "Jezbollah" a few years ago on this forum and his association with anti-semitic groups and people will indeed haunt him to his political grave. But he would need to resign as he can't be removed. Thats why I read the "McDonnell is on manuevers" comments and nod. "For the good of all we have achieved so far Jeremy, this can't go on". A soft voice from one of his closest allies at his moment of weakness would be enough, he can retire to martyrdom and the 118 year old party carries on without him.
The Sugar tweet is just an image. But it is a generation defining one. Politics is the Undiscovered Country - we have no idea how we will look post-Brexit never mind what that will do to politics. But I struggle with how Jezbollah can ever shake this off now
MARK REGEV thinks killing 16 and injuring dozens is proportionate because people were trying to break through the electric fence (which is impossible). You wouldn't kill animals in a zoo under those circumstances let alone human beings
How has Corbyn done personally in dealing with antisemitism in the Labour Party? 61% Well, 33% Badly, 6% Don't Know. How is Corbyn doing as Labour leader? 80% Well, 19% Badly, 1% Don't Know.
Mr. Observer, if there were a new Labour Party founded by a major split from Corbyn's Socialists, would you join it, or at least consider doing so?
Curious to know what someone on the left, but who is clearly not enamoured with the Supreme Leader, thinks of such a thing.
Absolutely, I would.
The problem is I suspect you are in a minority of Labour (ex, in your case) members. Meanwhile, if you were the majority the question wouldn't arise.
A Labour split gifts power to an appallingly mediocre Tory government consumed by nostalgia and with no idea about how to solve the 21st century problems the UK faces. But aCorbyn-led Labour party does that anyway, so why not split?
Mr. Observer, good. Just need about 14 million more of you then
Mr. Recidivist, sad to hear that. Perhaps if the Remain campaign had actually made arguments about why the EU is a good thing, rather than fear-mongering and complaining about the woe of leaving (and over-egging it, so that more credible claims were taken less seriously because of what had been said before) they would have won.
14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.
Interesting wording "no serious threat reported to any Israeli"
Was it reported to someone else?
How do you define "serious"?
Whatever you think of the government of Israel they don't make a habit of killing people for laughs - they just are more tolerant of civilian causalities in achieving their objectives than we are. (And Hamas frequently uses civilians as a human shield).
Corbyn needs to get a backbone and start concerning himself in what's happening in Gaza rather than worrying about what labels Guido and co want to pin on him.
The one doesn't preclude the other.
Jezza should be capable of clearing house and criticizing the excesses of the IDF. If Corbyn can't scratch his arse and pick his nose simultaneously he's certainly not fit for purpose as a putative Prime Minister.
We will see what happens - but I suspect most people are not going to look at Jeremy Corbyn and think... yes he’s like Hitler, that’s a reasonable comparison.
But it’s not saying he’s like Hitler, rather it’s taking to the point of absurdity the fact that Corbyn has been sitting next to a lot of antisemites - but that he doesn’t seem to care about too much about their racism because he thinks they’re otherwise good people.
You are kidding yourself if you think that’s what most people will see.
You are kidding yourself if you think most people aren't already seeing anti-semitism is a real problem for Labour and Corbyn. Yes, some are "meh - what's the big issue?". Most are rather more "holy shit - what the hell has Labour turned into?" One of those factions is a) much bigger than the other and b) much more likely to consider it a factor when deciding whether - or if - to cast its vote.
We need more polling on how much this is damaging both brand Labour and brand Corbyn.
Anti-semitism is a problem even if it doesn't cause Labour to fall in the polls. Absolutely anyone with anti-semitic views should be kicked out.
But people don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic, and I don't think comparing him to Hitler will change their minds.
Mr. Observer, if there were a new Labour Party founded by a major split from Corbyn's Socialists, would you join it, or at least consider doing so?
Curious to know what someone on the left, but who is clearly not enamoured with the Supreme Leader, thinks of such a thing.
Absolutely, I would.
The problem is I suspect you are in a minority of Labour (ex, in your case) members. Meanwhile, if you were the majority the question wouldn't arise.
A Labour split gifts power to an appallingly mediocre Tory government consumed by nostalgia and with no idea about how to solve the 21st century problems the UK faces. But aCorbyn-led Labour party does that anyway, so why not split?
As against that, a Corbyn-led party has a fair chance of winning. A split party has none.
Talk of a new political party is futile until we Brexit. I absolutely envisage the political tectonic plates shattering and new parties forming from the wreckage. The Tories are clearly two parties, Labour are clearly two parties, UKIP have expired but a lot of their membership haven't gone back to their previous party, the LibDems still make me laugh having immolated themselves for a few years of ministerial Jags.
A new moderate Labour Party? No, that wouldn't be the project. It would be the new centre party home to Blair Cameron and Clegg and all their acolytes. Much of what is politics is hot air and posturing for effect, these guys and their supporters have similar views of the world and vs the extreme elements destroying their parties (OK I accept that Clegg IS the extreme element who destroyed his party)
Mr. Observer, if there were a new Labour Party founded by a major split from Corbyn's Socialists, would you join it, or at least consider doing so?
Curious to know what someone on the left, but who is clearly not enamoured with the Supreme Leader, thinks of such a thing.
Absolutely, I would.
Many of us who are members of other parties would wish it well. Seeing the apologists for Corbyn just sliding past the greatest obscenity of the twentieth century as something that was no biggie (or didn't even happen) is so appalling that until 2015, it would have properly excluded them from power for all time. The Far Right was rightly hounded - and thankfully represented a tiny fringe of political views, whatever incarnation du jour it took up. To see similar views surfacing within the party on the Opposition benches is intolerable. It would be a stain on Westminster if it were represented by the views of one rogue who had been expelled from another party. To see a supine Front Bench - with its Party officials actively seeking to keep people holding such views within the Labour Party - is truly a shocking affront to the democracy we used to laud.
The UK can hardly say it is a force for good in the world if it is one election away from having such people controlling our international position on acceptable morality.
Mr. Observer, if there were a new Labour Party founded by a major split from Corbyn's Socialists, would you join it, or at least consider doing so?
Curious to know what someone on the left, but who is clearly not enamoured with the Supreme Leader, thinks of such a thing.
Absolutely, I would.
The problem is I suspect you are in a minority of Labour (ex, in your case) members. Meanwhile, if you were the majority the question wouldn't arise.
A Labour split gifts power to an appallingly mediocre Tory government consumed by nostalgia and with no idea about how to solve the 21st century problems the UK faces. But aCorbyn-led Labour party does that anyway, so why not split?
There is one good answer and that is that Corbyn is 69 in two months. He will not be around for ever, possibly not for much longer. It is possibly worth hanging on to see what happens next.
If he is replaced by another extremist, then would be the time to split. If somebody sane can turn the heads of the members back to reality, then the chance can be seized.
We will see what happens - but I suspect most people are not going to look at Jeremy Corbyn and think... yes he’s like Hitler, that’s a reasonable comparison.
But it’s not saying he’s like Hitler, rather it’s taking to the point of absurdity the fact that Corbyn has been sitting next to a lot of antisemites - but that he doesn’t seem to care about too much about their racism because he thinks they’re otherwise good people.
You are kidding yourself if you think that’s what most people will see.
You are kidding yourself if you think most people aren't already seeing anti-semitism is a real problem for Labour and Corbyn. Yes, some are "meh - what's the big issue?". Most are rather more "holy shit - what the hell has Labour turned into?" One of those factions is a) much bigger than the other and b) much more likely to consider it a factor when deciding whether - or if - to cast its vote.
We need more polling on how much this is damaging both brand Labour and brand Corbyn.
it hurts at the margins (and provides a good betting opportunity on Barnet Council) but no more than that. Most people who are dismayed are already voting against Labour.
Corbyn needs to get a backbone and start concerning himself in what's happening in Gaza rather than worrying about what labels Guido and co want to pin on him.
The one doesn't preclude the other.
Jezza should be capable of clearing house and criticizing the excesses of the IDF. If Corbyn can't scratch his arse and pick his nose simultaneously he's certainly not fit for purpose as a putative Prime Minister.
Another problem with the "eugh, criticism of Israel isn't anti-semitic" whine I hear is that the way most deployers of the argument say it yes it actually is.
Criticism of Israeli policies or politicians is fine. If your aim is a safe secure Israel alongside a safe and secure Palestine. But most people slagging off Israel see its entire existence as the problem, and then start banging on about the Israel lobby which is a secret network of rich Jews incidiously pushing propaganda to drive their own agenda - classic anti-semitism
We will see what happens - but I suspect most people are not going to look at Jeremy Corbyn and think... yes he’s like Hitler, that’s a reasonable comparison.
But it’s not saying he’s like Hitler, rather it’s taking to the point of absurdity the fact that Corbyn has been sitting next to a lot of antisemites - but that he doesn’t seem to care about too much about their racism because he thinks they’re otherwise good people.
You are kidding yourself if you think that’s what most people will see.
You are kidding yourself if you think most people aren't already seeing anti-semitism is a real problem for Labour and Corbyn. Yes, some are "meh - what's the big issue?". Most are rather more "holy shit - what the hell has Labour turned into?" One of those factions is a) much bigger than the other and b) much more likely to consider it a factor when deciding whether - or if - to cast its vote.
We need more polling on how much this is damaging both brand Labour and brand Corbyn.
Anti-semitism is a problem even if it doesn't cause Labour to fall in the polls. Absolutely anyone with anti-semitic views should be kicked out.
But people don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic, and I don't think comparing him to Hitler will change their minds.
More accurately, the image suggests he is in the same vehicle as Hitler. And not in the driving seat....
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
.
Sorry - but anyone who puts themselves forward as a potential PM can NEVER be cut slack because he isn't 'the sharpest'
Talk of a new political party is futile until we Brexit. I absolutely envisage the political tectonic plates shattering and new parties forming from the wreckage. The Tories are clearly two parties, Labour are clearly two parties, UKIP have expired but a lot of their membership haven't gone back to their previous party, the LibDems still make me laugh having immolated themselves for a few years of ministerial Jags.
A new moderate Labour Party? No, that wouldn't be the project. It would be the new centre party home to Blair Cameron and Clegg and all their acolytes. Much of what is politics is hot air and posturing for effect, these guys and their supporters have similar views of the world and vs the extreme elements destroying their parties (OK I accept that Clegg IS the extreme element who destroyed his party)
I disagree. I could never share a party with David Cameron, he is way to the right of me. I would like to see the emergence of an avowedly redistributionist, internationalist party that focuses relentlessly on equality of opportunity, but understands that you can’t create a fair society without enabling wealth creators. The anti-Semitism and general anti-West stuff aside, my big argument with the far left is that it gives no thought at all to wealth creation. It just assumes it will happen. That is profoundly naive. My argument with the centre right is just as profound: it believes in a smaller state; I think that this merely entrenches existing elites and hampers opportunities for those at the bottom.
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
.
Sorry - but anyone who puts themselves forward as a potential PM can NEVER be cut slack because he isn't 'the sharpest'
It would be good news for the unfortunate Viscount Goderich if Corbyn became PM.
He would no longer be the most useless PM of all time.
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.
Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
Ladbrokes have closed down my online betting account whilst trying to avoid refunding my already paid for open bets with them which include open political bets. I strongly recommend PB followers to AVOID placing long term bets with Ladbrokes
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.
Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
We will see what happens - but I suspect most people are not going to look at Jeremy Corbyn and think... yes he’s like Hitler, that’s a reasonable comparison.
But it’s not saying he’s like Hitler, rather it’s taking to the point of absurdity the fact that Corbyn has been sitting next to a lot of antisemites - but that he doesn’t seem to care about too much about their racism because he thinks they’re otherwise good people.
You are kidding yourself if you think that’s what most people will see.
You are kidding yourself if you think most people aren't already seeing anti-semitism is a real problem for Labour and Corbyn. Yes, some are "meh - what's the big issue?". Most are rather more "holy shit - what the hell has Labour turned into?" One of those factions is a) much bigger than the other and b) much more likely to consider it a factor when deciding whether - or if - to cast its vote.
We need more polling on how much this is damaging both brand Labour and brand Corbyn.
Anti-semitism is a problem even if it doesn't cause Labour to fall in the polls. Absolutely anyone with anti-semitic views should be kicked out.
But people don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic, and I don't think comparing him to Hitler will change their minds.
More accurately, the image suggests he is in the same vehicle as Hitler. And not in the driving seat....
Indeed. And they’re probably having a conversation about how well the nationalised trains run in Germany.
Labour moderates need to accept Corbyn as PM is a threat to the dominance of the liberal international order. They can't be responsible for letting that happen. Just remaining Lablur MPs does that. They can't hope for something to turn up as Momentum already has such dominance over the party and membership that they would remain in power even if Labour lost an election or Corbyn fell under a bus.
They need to bite the bus and form SDP2 with the Lib Dems. Macron has shown there is far more opportunity to do this in the age of social media and smartphones. The more time they do it before an election, the better organised they can be. They can then argue for a leader and platform they actually believe in. Why else did they go into politics?
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.
Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.
Corbyn won't even stop assisting the Kremlin's TV channel when they are harming British civilians with chemical attacks.
They do nothing. If there’s no reasonable prospect any time soon of restoring the party leadership or direction to something more palatable to them, and there isn’t, then they need to ask themselves firstly if it is a party they are still happy to represent, if they are happy to put Corbyn in No. 10. If the answer is yes then it is a mere minor political dispute, they will get a chance one day to change direction and they can sit quiet until then, rebel from time to time and be regarded like Corbyn was as a ph irritant to theckeadership. If the answer is no, then sone form of action is required to not be a hypocrite. Success is impossible, so the actions are either leave, or don’t pretend to support him even slightly to make clear your position. Sure, it’s a dare for them to come after you, but they might anyway, and if you truly think he would be terrible, say so.
14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.
I think you have to wait for a judgment by the PB Committee on Antisemitic Corbynite Activity as to whether even referring to the killings in Gaza is in fact antisemitic. You should be ok as long as you only repeat verbatim IDF statements and anything Mark Regev says on the subject.
With some of the youth, Jezza enjoys the image of being a kindly old grandparent pottering around with his harmless hobbies, yet inspired to make the country a more equal place. Or perhaps a wise old uncle.
As the Septics used to say ... Why listen to an old man now, if when he was in his thirties, you wouldn't have trusted him to direct you to the local convenience store?
Mrs May is a poor politician and so is Jezza, but she has the benefit of being brighter.
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.
Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.
Sat here at my mother-in-Law's kitchen table in Basildon. She's a long-standing Labour voter and trade unionist. She was appalled by Corbyn from day one and is wanting to know what I'm going to do about it...
I take on board @SouthamObserver 's point about Cameron, and I'm glad you feel the same as me. But I do know some colleagues who take the enemy of my enemy is my friend and see saner people in the moderate wing of the Tories. Strip the leaders away from it, I can see a party that takes moderate elements of both parties.
Those of you not in the Labour Party need to understand how dire this is. We have been taken over by hooligans. In the bad old days "Football" supporters would deck themselves in the colours of a team and go to matches, but their interest was in a fight not football.
The same is true with these Corbyn Ultras. They have no interest in the Labour Party or the wider movement. No interest in our basic values and beliefs. No interest in power - they just want a fight. The majority of the new membership are not activists and I don't speak of them, just the hardcore agitators. They are using Corbyn as the figurehead for their anarchist movement to tear apart the Labour Party, and he is a fool for being used this way. They attack anything and everything that is "the enemy" of Jeremy - our MPs, our staff, our councillors, our existing activists. If you were here before Jeremy you are the enemy.
Which is why when Shawcroft gets elevated to the top of the NEC she is more than happy to denounce the Trade Unions who formed this movement and still fund it, and to harbour absolutely anyone no matter how disgusting their views as long as they support Corbyn. She has gone, but they will put up someone similar. And the half million sleeping members, feeding on the cult leader materials thrown at them, will keep voting to keep the Ultras in power
Rochdale Pioneers, an interesting series of posts from the inside. Your exasperations are obvious. Only one thing I would take issue with:
"Its self-evident that there are more bigoted people in the Tory party but the focus is on us"
No - it really isn't self evident. That is just Labour feeling good about Labour because it is Labour. Stop clutching the blue blanket of "the other lot are even worse". In this instance, they really aren't. And leave us to sort out our miscreants (if what I am saying is bollocks).
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.
Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.
McDonnell (and possibly Tom Watson) really needs to go and have a less than polite word in Corbyn’s shell-like. It must be close to being an existential threat to the party, as it was in the 1980s with Militant. I can’t imagine there’s not half the PLP seriously contemplating their future this weekend.
What do "moderates" do? The vast majority of the 600k membership are inactive, they only vote for the leader and give us their subs. As CLP Secretary I know that every email I send out about meetings or campaigning or participate will be met with several members unsubscribing from the mailing list. So the idea of removing Jeremy can be struck off as its impossible.
I think this anti-semitism thing will be the millstone that Corbyn will never shake off. I branded him "Jezbollah" a few years ago on this forum and his association with anti-semitic groups and people will indeed haunt him to his political grave. But he would need to resign as he can't be removed. Thats why I read the "McDonnell is on manuevers" comments and nod. "For the good of all we have achieved so far Jeremy, this can't go on". A soft voice from one of his closest allies at his moment of weakness would be enough, he can retire to martyrdom and the 118 year old party carries on without him.
The Sugar tweet is just an image. But it is a generation defining one. Politics is the Undiscovered Country - we have no idea how we will look post-Brexit never mind what that will do to politics. But I struggle with how Jezbollah can ever shake this off now
Really appreciate your observations and think they hit the nail on the head.
What it confirms (to anyone in doubt) is that the most hardcore of Corbynistas are representative of the Labour membership.
Yes. Strangely enough for once the more extreme wing really do represent the majority they claim to speak for, incontrovertibly for once. Umunna asked on Twitter a week or so ago ‘what happened to our party?’ And the answer is ‘it has become what it wants to be.
The only thing that didn’t quite chime for me was this: “Other than that, the moderates must hope that the faddists simply get bored with the Corbyn project and move on, leaving enough scope to act when the opportunity arises.”
I think the Labour Party membership are engaged and fired up. I could see members giving up after a big defeat - but just drifting away feels unlikely...
I think part of the Labour Party membership is fired up. But a large part of that is only fired up to be active behind a screen - on Twitter or similar places. And whilst that might have some actual campaigning use - a lot of it is hot air (and, as we have seen, some very nasty stuff has been posted)
Keyboard warriors are all very well - but they aren't as effective as boots on the ground. And for many, that is a bit too much effort.
And there is also a significant minority of Labour members who are just sitting quiet in the hope that their party eventually sobers up.
This is all about differential turn out. The ongoing coverage of internal Labour struggles won't help drive people to the polls on 3rd May. There are plenty who identify as Labour but who will struggle to vote for the current party.
Reports from GE2017 were that Momentum and/or the Corbynites were putting their feet on the ground.
Certainly did in Wiltshire. Either that or it was a complete coincidence that at the same time as the corbynite surge they became much more active and effective.
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.
Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.
Sat here at my mother-in-Law's kitchen table in Basildon. She's a long-standing Labour voter and trade unionist. She was appalled by Corbyn from day one and is wanting to know what I'm going to do about it...
I take on board @SouthamObserver 's point about Cameron, and I'm glad you feel the same as me. But I do know some colleagues who take the enemy of my enemy is my friend and see saner people in the moderate wing of the Tories. Strip the leaders away from it, I can see a party that takes moderate elements of both parties.
Those of you not in the Labour Party need to understand how dire this is. We have been taken over by hooligans. In the bad old days "Football" supporters would deck themselves in the colours of a team and go to matches, but their interest was in a fight not football.
The same is true with these Corbyn Ultras. They have no interest in the Labour Party or the wider movement. No interest in our basic values and beliefs. No interest in power - they just want a fight. The majority of the new membership are not activists and I don't speak of them, just the hardcore agitators. They are using Corbyn as the figurehead for their anarchist movement to tear apart the Labour Party, and he is a fool for being used this way. They attack anything and everything that is "the enemy" of Jeremy - our MPs, our staff, our councillors, our existing activists. If you were here before Jeremy you are the enemy.
Which is why when Shawcroft gets elevated to the top of the NEC she is more than happy to denounce the Trade Unions who formed this movement and still fund it, and to harbour absolutely anyone no matter how disgusting their views as long as they support Corbyn. She has gone, but they will put up someone similar. And the half million sleeping members, feeding on the cult leader materials thrown at them, will keep voting to keep the Ultras in power
Very interesting posts, thanks.
My views on Labour are essentially irrelevant, as I won't vote for the party, but the views of someone who is committed to the party are well worth reading.
My views on Labour are essentially irrelevant, as I won't vote for the party, but the views of someone who is committed to the party are well worth reading.
We will see what happens - but I suspect most people are not going to look at Jeremy Corbyn and think... yes he’s like Hitler, that’s a reasonable comparison.
That's not the point being made though. Corbyn's excuse is that he hasn't seen the things he was commenting on/about, so the implication is that he's been accidentally wandering into a bunch of neo-Nazis 'without realising it' for ever. (Of course Hitler died before Corbyn was born, so that's a further way it's not plausible.)
Should be noted however that it's not only the faithful who are aggrieved. Even John Mann thought it was a step too far:
Well that’s because even if the absurdist point is wanting to be made one has to be very very careful if you’re going to bring up Nazis or Hitler in doing so, since it will cause outrage and permit deflection and distraction, so on a practical level let alone anything else it’s generally not a good idea.
Have to say re the picture Sugar posted, I think Corbyn’s opponents are again shooting themselves in the foot. I’ve yet to see these kind of attacks work on Corbyn tbh. Given the lack of poll movement so far, we need to seriously be careful in thinking that most people care about antisemitism in the Labour Party. If they did, you’d hope to see that actually reflected in VI. If this is how most people noticing antisemitism in Labour looks, then means 40% of voters are still prepared to vote for the party even after knowing that.
Mr. Doethur, that videogame nonsense is ongoing. One idiot politician, a few years ago (after Sandy Hook, I think), proposed banning 'real' guns in videogames.
Mr. Labour, true, there was a similar dislike of chess in Paris a few centuries ago, and Anna Komnene railed angrily against the youth of Byzantium playing draughts instead of learning grammar and rhetoric.
It’s particularly silly in the context of America - they don’t play video games in other places, USA, without having the same issue?
Where I would advise caution from a betting perspective is that 2022 is a lifetime away. When as in Stingray "Anything Can Happen in the Next Half-hour" how can anyone of us reliably judge what will happen in the next 4 years?
What seems clear is that we are dreadfully short of leadership as a nation. The Tories have a Zombie in the chair, with a choice of Dumb and Dumber waiting in the wings. Labour have a naive patsy in the chair with a choice of even more naive (Long-Bailey), even more dangerous (McDonnell) or grey irrelevance (take your pick of continuity New Labour fools). The LibDems went supernova and have the man from the Werthers Original advert apparently as leader though nobody has seen them to confirm it. The Kippers fell apart and bust themselves trying to pretend it wasn't the Farage Party.
Show me a UK politician with the ideas and the pizzazz to lead us through the Brexit minefield and fix the many structural faults in the economy. Who isn't Scottish and refuses to cross Hadrian's Wall...
We will see what happens - but I suspect most people are not going to look at Jeremy Corbyn and think... yes he’s like Hitler, that’s a reasonable comparison.
But it’s not saying he’s like Hitler, rather it’s taking to the point of absurdity the fact that Corbyn has been sitting next to a lot of antisemites - but that he doesn’t seem to care about too much about their racism because he thinks they’re otherwise good people.
You are kidding yourself if you think that’s what most people will see.
You are kidding yourself if you think most people aren't already seeing anti-semitism is a real problem for Labour and Corbyn.
Are people still disputing that? I am surprised they would go against Corbyn himself, who says it is a real problem.
Have to say re the picture Sugar posted, I think Corbyn’s opponents are again shooting themselves in the foot. I’ve yet to see these kind of attacks work on Corbyn tbh. Given the lack of poll movement so far, we need to seriously be careful in thinking that most people care about antisemitism in the Labour Party. If they did, you’d hope to see that actually reflected in VI. If this is how most people noticing antisemitism in Labour looks, then means 40% of voters are still prepared to vote for the party.
Corbyn's ratings have slipped, and it's probably a contributory factor, but it's not decisive.
Corbyn needs to get a backbone and start concerning himself in what's happening in Gaza rather than worrying about what labels Guido and co want to pin on him.
The one doesn't preclude the other.
Jezza should be capable of clearing house and criticizing the excesses of the IDF. If Corbyn can't scratch his arse and pick his nose simultaneously he's certainly not fit for purpose as a putative Prime Minister.
Quite so. Why would taking action on antisemitism prevent criticism of Israel? I’d have thought it would strengthen it, since it would show very clearly the actions of the Israeli state are the problem, but he will not tolerate people who share that view to drift into or spew anti Semitic views.
Mr. kle4, quite. Not to mention, the idea pixels of guns are dangerous but actual guns are fine is, ahem, intellectually challenging as a concept.
Edited extra bit: if she (think it was a female politician) had been around in Roman times she might well have opposed mosaics of unpleasant things being permitted
Have to say re the picture Sugar posted, I think Corbyn’s opponents are again shooting themselves in the foot. I’ve yet to see these kind of attacks work on Corbyn tbh. Given the lack of poll movement so far, we need to seriously be careful in thinking that most people care about antisemitism in the Labour Party. If they did, you’d hope to see that actually reflected in VI. If this is how most people noticing antisemitism in Labour looks, then means 40% of voters are still prepared to vote for the party.
Corbyn's ratings have slipped, and it's probably a contributory factor, but it's not decisive.
Antisemitism is something you leave a party over, not simply say that the leader’s not doing too well as you would over say, the economy or education reform. That is not really a very strong reaction to something which is really a massive crisis.
If members will indulge me I'm going to write a few perspectives from inside the party from what I consider to be a "neutral" position...
There is a huge amount of smoke coming off this one with people not understanding where the fire is. Corbyn is a campaigner AGAINST racism, he doesn't aid and abet anti-semitism and some of the claims made that he does are silly. His problem is that he is a staunch anti-imperialist and that has aligned and allied him with a long list of people who ARE anti-semitic. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...
Nor is there a problem with anti-semitism in the Labour Party. We have members who are racists, sexists, homophobes etc - we are a microcosm of society as all parties are. Its self-evident that there are more bigoted people in the Tory party but the focus is on us, we can't fix other parties so we have to fix ourselves. Of our c. 600k members we have had 300 issues of anti-semitism raised as complaints. That is a very small problem rather than a very big one.
The BIG problem is the membership. Yes Momentum organise but they are still a fringe group, are bitterly internally divided and factious, and the idea that it was their activists (as opposed to Labour activists) who saved the election simply isn't true.
More to follow...
Surely if you ally and align with anti semites (on separate issues), you are aiding and abetting them, even if unintentionally? And the problem has not been the number of incidents but how they have been reacted to?i am interested to see you feel momentum’s influence is overhyped.
Mr. Observer, if there were a new Labour Party founded by a major split from Corbyn's Socialists, would you join it, or at least consider doing so?
Curious to know what someone on the left, but who is clearly not enamoured with the Supreme Leader, thinks of such a thing.
Absolutely, I would.
The problem is I suspect you are in a minority of Labour (ex, in your case) members. Meanwhile, if you were the majority the question wouldn't arise.
A Labour split gifts power to an appallingly mediocre Tory government consumed by nostalgia and with no idea about how to solve the 21st century problems the UK faces. But aCorbyn-led Labour party does that anyway, so why not split?
There is one good answer and that is that Corbyn is 69 in two months. He will not be around for ever, possibly not for much longer. It is possibly worth hanging on to see what happens next.
If he is replaced by another extremist, then would be the time to split. If somebody sane can turn the heads of the members back to reality, then the chance can be seized.
Corbyn seems younger than he is and seems plenty energetic. He could last ages.
Our problem is the membership, specifically the Corbyn Ultras who see their man as the saviour. They disown all that came before him, 2015 was their year zero, and they are motivated and active in trying to rescue the Labour Party from its MPs officials councillors and existing activists - we're all Blairite red Tories and they are the true socialists as witnessed by them campaigning against us.
They defend him to the death. On Facebook they're still insisting that mural wasn't anti-semitic long after JC apologied for it so being, they're screaming about plots from Blairites even after Rebecca Long-Bailey and John McDonnell joined it. They denounce any Jewish voice that isn't the Jewish Voice for Labour as non-authentic or biased or lying, especially the century affiliated Jewish Labour Movement who at best are "Tories" and at worst are "funded by Israel"
This mentality (and it IS mental) means they see any suspension or expulsion of their people as part of the Blairite plot against Jeremy. Witness that lunatic Shawcroft, installed as head of the complaints body who gives support to an anti-semite, then claims not to have looked at the evidence (why bother, he's a Corbynite), then resigns and screams that its all a Blairite plot.
You cannot filter "is this person anti-semitic" through a filter of "do they support Jeremy". But that is the filter, and that is why we have an anti-semitism problem.
More to follow...
It’s hard to grasp the mindset of such ultras really. Must be difficult to handle, but if they set the direction all he’ll breaks loose.
My views on Labour are essentially irrelevant, as I won't vote for the party, but the views of someone who is committed to the party are well worth reading.
+1
As political people your views are not irrelevant. We seem wedded to First Past the Post in this country, and that means a choice of a Labour government or a Tory government. I have never and will never vote for your party, but that doesn't mean my views are irrelevant.
Our political system works best when we agree on basic principles and can progress national development over a longer period than the electoral cycle. We have had decade long spells of alignment which both sides will not have liked in hindsight - SuperMac campaigning proudly on how many hundreds of thousands of council houses his Conservative government had built, Blair campaigning on cool Britannia culturally exporting to the world making everyone better off.
Both parties have been swamped by nastiness. I see a Tory party utterly indifferent to human suffering created by its policies. I see a Labour party utterly indifferent to the idea that we need profit-making enterprise to provide those secure well paid jobs they want for people. If both parties indulge in naval-gazing not only do we get policies that damage the nation economically and socially, we find it very hard to actually do anything of substance. If we want big global industrials and we want entrepreneurial drive and we want working people not to be reliant on foodbanks and we want world class health and education and infrastructure we actually need each other.
I'm tribal, you're tribal. But we all want a Greater Britain. Or we did, until we decided holding power became more important than using power. I no more want a Tory party led by amoral wazzocks than you want a Labour Party led by naive anti-imperialists. Because it gives planning permission for nutters in the other party to rise up.
Mr. Observer, if there were a new Labour Party founded by a major split from Corbyn's Socialists, would you join it, or at least consider doing so?
Curious to know what someone on the left, but who is clearly not enamoured with the Supreme Leader, thinks of such a thing.
Absolutely, I would.
The problem is I suspect you are in a minority of Labour (ex, in your case) members. Meanwhile, if you were the majority the question wouldn't arise.
A Labour split gifts power to an appallingly mediocre Tory government consumed by nostalgia and with no idea about how to solve the 21st century problems the UK faces. But aCorbyn-led Labour party does that anyway, so why not split?
Because, in fact, Corbyn led labour could still win, or at the least it is not certain it would lose.
It is interesting though if the Tories would fragment more, should labour split and the fear not hold the Tories together, and so in fact a split labour wouldn’t do as bad as thought.
But labour members are pretty happy it seems, so no split.
Corbyn needs to get a backbone and start concerning himself in what's happening in Gaza rather than worrying about what labels Guido and co want to pin on him.
The one doesn't preclude the other.
Jezza should be capable of clearing house and criticizing the excesses of the IDF. If Corbyn can't scratch his arse and pick his nose simultaneously he's certainly not fit for purpose as a putative Prime Minister.
Another problem with the "eugh, criticism of Israel isn't anti-semitic" whine I hear is that the way most deployers of the argument say it yes it actually is.
Criticism of Israeli policies or politicians is fine. If your aim is a safe secure Israel alongside a safe and secure Palestine. But most people slagging off Israel see its entire existence as the problem, and then start banging on about the Israel lobby which is a secret network of rich Jews incidiously pushing propaganda to drive their own agenda - classic anti-semitism
How has Corbyn done personally in dealing with antisemitism in the Labour Party? 61% Well, 33% Badly, 6% Don't Know. How is Corbyn doing as Labour leader? 80% Well, 19% Badly, 1% Don't Know.
Safe as houses. Sure people will rally to the leader, but the man’s still adored.
If members will indulge me I'm going to write a few perspectives from inside the party from what I consider to be a "neutral" position...
There is a huge amount of smoke coming off this one with people not understanding where the fire is. Corbyn is a campaigner AGAINST racism, he doesn't aid and abet anti-semitism and some of the claims made that he does are silly. His problem is that he is a staunch anti-imperialist and that has aligned and allied him with a long list of people who ARE anti-semitic. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...
Nor is there a problem with anti-semitism in the Labour Party. We have members who are racists, sexists, homophobes etc - we are a microcosm of society as all parties are. Its self-evident that there are more bigoted people in the Tory party but the focus is on us, we can't fix other parties so we have to fix ourselves. Of our c. 600k members we have had 300 issues of anti-semitism raised as complaints. That is a very small problem rather than a very big one.
The BIG problem is the membership. Yes Momentum organise but they are still a fringe group, are bitterly internally divided and factious, and the idea that it was their activists (as opposed to Labour activists) who saved the election simply isn't true.
More to follow...
Surely if you ally and align with anti semites (on separate issues), you are aiding and abetting them, even if unintentionally? And the problem has not been the number of incidents but how they have been reacted to?i am interested to see you feel momentum’s influence is overhyped.
"Its self-evident that there are more bigoted people in the Tory party"
There it is in a nutshell. The whataboutery argument every time. Where's the evidence for this statement? All we have seen in the last few weeks is a stream of racism from the Left and people who claim to be her majesty's opposition.
Having written that, perhaps I am advocating a new centrist party...
I'm not, but I am advocating basic British values. If we at least agree on those then the other party being in power is less of a threat.
That is the way we all believe things to be set up already. We do seem to be closer to a position of fearing the other lot winning as a threat than we have for a long time though.
This doesn’t seem to have got much publicity, but perhaps Cambridge Analytica didn’t use “stolen” data after all...
In the document, Global Science Research, Mr Kogan’s company, outlined terms and conditions that asked users for permission to collect information, including their likes and status updates as well as those of their Facebook friends. The terms stated that the company would have the right to “edit, copy, disseminate, publish, transfer, append or merge with other databases, sell, license . . . and archive your contribution and data”.
How has Corbyn done personally in dealing with antisemitism in the Labour Party? 61% Well, 33% Badly, 6% Don't Know. How is Corbyn doing as Labour leader? 80% Well, 19% Badly, 1% Don't Know.
Safe as houses. Sure people will rally to the leader, but the man’s still adored.
But if Labour were to start losing a slice of that 33% badly in the wider group of voters as a result.....if it is even as low as 33% with the voters. Sometimes, issues cut through in unexpected ways and with unexpected force. And if this is one of them.....
14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.
The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.
Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.
Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.
McDonnell (and possibly Tom Watson) really needs to go and have a less than polite word in Corbyn’s shell-like. It must be close to being an existential threat to the party, as it was in the 1980s with Militant. I can’t imagine there’s not half the PLP seriously contemplating their future this weekend.
I can believe it. Haven’t people like cooper already said they have no problem campaigning to put Corbyn in no. 10? That’s not surprising, they’re all still labour, but it shows there’s no existential crisis. This is exactly what it appears to be - on this issue many in the plp think he has acted inadequately, but they have no real problem with him otherwise anymore, only some minor policy issues, the so called moderates are coybynite labour, except on 1 or 2 things, which is not much of a difference.
Mr. Doethur, that videogame nonsense is ongoing. One idiot politician, a few years ago (after Sandy Hook, I think), proposed banning 'real' guns in videogames.
Mr. Labour, true, there was a similar dislike of chess in Paris a few centuries ago, and Anna Komnene railed angrily against the youth of Byzantium playing draughts instead of learning grammar and rhetoric.
It’s particularly silly in the context of America - they don’t play video games in other places, USA, without having the same issue?
The issue in the USA is related to mental health, lack of opportunity in many places, and endemic drug use, much more than its to do with movies and video games.
Even the guns issue is at best peripheral, there’s plenty of other countries full of guns where these incidents don’t happen - although the method of the crime does maximise casualties when incidents do happen.
MARK REGEV thinks killing 16 and injuring dozens is proportionate because people were trying to break through the electric fence (which is impossible). You wouldn't kill animals in a zoo under those circumstances let alone human beings
Of course it is possible to break through an electric fence. It may be difficult but it is possible.
In any event, my understanding is that the Gaza border fence is not electrified. The border with Egypt is electrified but not that with Gaza. If it is, the fact that it was breached two days ago rather gives the lie to your "impossible to break through" argument.
Corbyn needs to get a backbone and start concerning himself in what's happening in Gaza rather than worrying about what labels Guido and co want to pin on him.
The one doesn't preclude the other.
Jezza should be capable of clearing house and criticizing the excesses of the IDF. If Corbyn can't scratch his arse and pick his nose simultaneously he's certainly not fit for purpose as a putative Prime Minister.
Quite so. Why would taking action on antisemitism prevent criticism of Israel? I’d have thought it would strengthen it, since it would show very clearly the actions of the Israeli state are the problem, but he will not tolerate people who share that view to drift into or spew anti Semitic views.
And with the violent clashes between Israelis and Palestinians in the news today, there’s a good chance that more people are going to draw the line in the wrong place with their comments.
Have to say re the picture Sugar posted, I think Corbyn’s opponents are again shooting themselves in the foot. I’ve yet to see these kind of attacks work on Corbyn tbh. Given the lack of poll movement so far, we need to seriously be careful in thinking that most people care about antisemitism in the Labour Party. If they did, you’d hope to see that actually reflected in VI. If this is how most people noticing antisemitism in Labour looks, then means 40% of voters are still prepared to vote for the party.
Corbyn's ratings have slipped, and it's probably a contributory factor, but it's not decisive.
Antisemitism is something you leave a party over, not simply say that the leader’s not doing too well as you would over say, the economy or education reform. That is not really a very strong reaction to something which is really a massive crisis.
Antisemitism is also an accusation you should only make with pretty strong evidence.
I don't watch the news so I don't know how this story is being covered, but out of curiosity I have just spent 15 minutes looking at the social media profile of my local councillor. I know her personally and vote for her. She's a nice old woman in her seventies, yet surprisingly effective. Basically the kind of person who keeps politics going for the rest of us, often without any thanks.
I couldn't find any evidence of anti-semitism but she is very interested in animal welfare and has retweeted some memes from animal rights groups. It wouldn't be tremendously difficult to portray her as someone who supports violent extremists. Actually, I wonder what I would make of her just looking at her Facebook page in isolation. I think I probably would conclude that she was a bit potty and consider not voting for her.
Although I'm English I have a name which sounds Jewish, so I have rather bizarrely been on the receiving end of low level anti-semitism myself and also heard it expressed openly by people who know I'm not Jewish. It is definitely something that the right are more prone to than the left - though luckily not very prevalent.
So I'll take all these stories about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party with extreme skepticism until someone comes up with some actual evidence.
14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.
The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.
Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;
Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
The Israeli government do make it harder to sympathise with them than they need to sometimes, given their legitimate dangers. The land issue is one such.
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.
Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.
McDonnell (and possibly Tom Watson) really needs to go and have a less than polite word in Corbyn’s shell-like. It must be close to being an existential threat to the party, as it was in the 1980s with Militant. I can’t imagine there’s not half the PLP seriously contemplating their future this weekend.
I can believe it. Haven’t people like cooper already said they have no problem campaigning to put Corbyn in no. 10? That’s not surprising, they’re all still labour, but it shows there’s no existential crisis. This is exactly what it appears to be - on this issue many in the plp think he has acted inadequately, but they have no real issue with him otherwise, only some minor policy issues,
I wouldn’t say they have no real issues or even that it’s just minor policy issues. I think they know though that the idea that a centre party is going to be successful in peeling off a lot of Corbyn’s vote is unlikely. We’ve had a centre party now as an alternative to Corbyn’s Labour for sometime in the LDs and it’s still polling very badly. It’s clear not all Labour voters like Corbyn, but so far it seems getting the Tories out is more of a motivating factor in their decision making then repulsion at Labour at the moment.
14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.
Interesting wording "no serious threat reported to any Israeli"
Was it reported to someone else?
How do you define "serious"?
Whatever you think of the government of Israel they don't make a habit of killing people for laughs - they just are more tolerant of civilian causalities in achieving their objectives than we are. (And Hamas frequently uses civilians as a human shield).
I would note that the vast majority of the injuries were tear gas which, while unpleasant, is transitory. Rubber bullets are more serious, clearly, and to conflate the numbers.
How would you recommend that the Israeli army (many of whom are teenagers) should deal with people rolling burning tyres at them?
And the demand for “right of return” is - as they know - something that can only be achieved as part of an overall peace settlement. One would ask why - after 70 years - the Jordanians have not allowed the Palestians to integrate (most if the RoR individuals don’t live in Gaza)
Israel often overreacts but you need to remember they face an existential threat from Implacable enemies
Have to say re the picture Sugar posted, I think Corbyn’s opponents are again shooting themselves in the foot. I’ve yet to see these kind of attacks work on Corbyn tbh. Given the lack of poll movement so far, we need to seriously be careful in thinking that most people care about antisemitism in the Labour Party. If they did, you’d hope to see that actually reflected in VI. If this is how most people noticing antisemitism in Labour looks, then means 40% of voters are still prepared to vote for the party.
Corbyn's ratings have slipped, and it's probably a contributory factor, but it's not decisive.
Antisemitism is something you leave a party over, not simply say that the leader’s not doing too wellng reaction to something which is really a massive crisis.
Antisemitism is also an accusation you should only make with pretty strong evidence.
I don't watch the news so I don't know how this story is being covered, but out of curiosity I have just spent 15 minutes looking at the social media profile of my local councillor. I know her personally and vote for her. She's a nice old woman in her seventies, yet surprisingly effective. Basically the kind of person who keeps politics going for the rest of us, often without any thanks.
I couldn't find any evidence of anti-semitism but she is very interested in animal welfare and has retweeted some memes from animal rights groups. It wouldn't be tremendously difficult to portray her as someone who supports violent extremists. Actually, I wonder what I would make of her just looking at her Facebook page in isolation. I think I probably would conclude that she was a bit potty and consider not voting for her.
Although I'm English I have a name which sounds Jewish, so I have rather bizarrely been on the receiving end of low level anti-semitism myself and also heard it expressed openly by people who know I'm not Jewish. It is definitely something that the right are more prone to than the left - though luckily not very prevalent.
So I'll take all these stories about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party with extreme skepticism until someone comes up with some actual evidence.
There’s enough evidence for the leader of the party to say it is there, and surely no leader would admit to that unless it is true? Why would he lie about the party and say otherwise? It’s not like that lie would help in the long run.
I very much hope all parties are devoting resources to trying to identify their bad elements. Certainly no one wants a situation where people are punished by having their views misrepresented, but if one leader accepts there is sufficient evidence of there being a problem, maybe there is in the others too.
Have to say re the picture Sugar posted, I think Corbyn’s opponents are again shooting themselves in the foot. I’ve yet to see these kind of attacks work on Corbyn tbh. Given the lack of poll movement so far, we need to seriously be careful in thinking that most people care about antisemitism in the Labour Party. If they did, you’d hope to see that actually reflected in VI. If this is how most people noticing antisemitism in Labour looks, then means 40% of voters are still prepared to vote for the party.
Corbyn's ratings have slipped, and it's probably a contributory factor, but it's not decisive.
Antisemitism is something you leave a party over, not simply say that the leader’s not doing too well as you would over say, the economy or education reform. That is not really a very strong reaction to something which is really a massive crisis.
Antisemitism is also an accusation you should only make with pretty strong evidence.
I don't watch the news so I don't know how this story is being covered, but out of curiosity I have just spent 15 minutes looking at the social media profile of my local councillor. I know her personally and vote for her. She's a nice old woman in her seventies, yet surprisingly effective. Basically the kind of person who keeps politics going for the rest of us, often without any thanks.
I couldn't find any evidence of anti-semitism but she is very interested in animal welfare and has retweeted some memes from animal rights groups. It wouldn't be tremendously difficult to portray her as someone who supports violent extremists. Actually, I wonder what I would make of her just looking at her Facebook page in isolation. I think I probably would conclude that she was a bit potty and consider not voting for her.
Although I'm English I have a name which sounds Jewish, so I have rather bizarrely been on the receiving end of low level anti-semitism myself and also heard it expressed openly by people who know I'm not Jewish. It is definitely something that the right are more prone to than the left - though luckily not very prevalent.
So I'll take all these stories about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party with extreme skepticism until someone comes up with some actual evidence.
The evidence is there - you are just choosing not to look at it. Ask Ruth Smeeth MP about her experience. She is not alone.
Corbyn needs to get a backbone and start concerning himself in what's happening in Gaza rather than worrying about what labels Guido and co want to pin on him.
The one doesn't preclude the other.
Jezza should be capable of clearing house and criticizing the excesses of the IDF. If Corbyn can't scratch his arse and pick his nose simultaneously he's certainly not fit for purpose as a putative Prime Minister.
Quite so. Why would taking action on antisemitism prevent criticism of Israel? I’d have thought it would strengthen it, since it would show very clearly the actions of the Israeli state are the problem, but he will not tolerate people who share that view to drift into or spew anti Semitic views.
And with the violent clashes between Israelis and Palestinians in the news today, there’s a good chance that more people are going to draw the line in the wrong place with their comments.
Hardly clashes when they are locked behind fences, more like one side indulging in barrel fishing.
Ladbrokes have closed down my online betting account whilst trying to avoid refunding my already paid for open bets with them which include open political bets. I strongly recommend PB followers to AVOID placing long term bets with Ladbrokes
Thanks for this - from somebody who does visit this site for the occasional betting tip!
Do you have any idea why they closed down your account?
My views on Labour are essentially irrelevant, as I won't vote for the party, but the views of someone who is committed to the party are well worth reading.
+1
As political people your views are not irrelevant. We seem wedded to First Past the Post in this country, and that means a choice of a Labour government or a Tory government. I have never and will never vote for your party, but that doesn't mean my views are irrelevant.
Our political system works best when we agree on basic principles and can progress national development over a longer period than the electoral cycle. We have had decade long spells of alignment which both sides will not have liked in hindsight - SuperMac campaigning proudly on how many hundreds of thousands of council houses his Conservative government had built, Blair campaigning on cool Britannia culturally exporting to the world making everyone better off.
Both parties have been swamped by nastiness. I see a Tory party utterly indifferent to human suffering created by its policies. I see a Labour party utterly indifferent to the idea that we need profit-making enterprise to provide those secure well paid jobs they want for people. If both parties indulge in naval-gazing not only do we get policies that damage the nation economically and socially, we find it very hard to actually do anything of substance. If we want big global industrials and we want entrepreneurial drive and we want working people not to be reliant on foodbanks and we want world class health and education and infrastructure we actually need each other.
I'm tribal, you're tribal. But we all want a Greater Britain. Or we did, until we decided holding power became more important than using power. I no more want a Tory party led by amoral wazzocks than you want a Labour Party led by naive anti-imperialists. Because it gives planning permission for nutters in the other party to rise up.
I certainly don't want a Greater Britain , roll on Independence from the shambles.
14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.
The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.
Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.
Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.
McDonnell (and possibly Tom Watson) really needs to go and have a less than polite word in Corbyn’s shell-like. It must be close to being an existential threat to the party, as it was in the 1980s with Militant. I can’t imagine there’s not half the PLP seriously contemplating their future this weekend.
I can believe it. Haven’t people like cooper already said they have no problem campaigning to put Corbyn in no. 10? That’s not surprising, they’re all still labour, but it shows there’s no existential crisis. This is exactly what it appears to be - on this issue many in the plp think he has acted inadequately, but they have no real issue with him otherwise, only some minor policy issues,
I wouldn’t say they have no real issues or even that it’s just minor policy issues. I think they know though that the idea that a centre party is going to be successful in peeling off a lot of Corbyn’s vote is unlikely. We’ve had a centre party now as an alternative to Corbyn’s Labour for sometime in the LDs and it’s still polling very badly. It’s clear not all Labour voters like Corbyn, but so far it seems getting the Tories out is more of a motivating factor in their decision making then repulsion at Labour at the moment.
If someone is content to remain in a party and happy to actively work to place its leadership in power, then to my mind that demonstrates they hold no significant concerns, whatever they might claim while sobbing anonymously to a journalist. If they hold significant concerns but lack the ability to change matters-then they can at least speak out, but they only seem to on a few issues. That leads me to conclude they are happy, or merely gutless.
Comments
Mr. Labour, true, there was a similar dislike of chess in Paris a few centuries ago, and Anna Komnene railed angrily against the youth of Byzantium playing draughts instead of learning grammar and rhetoric.
However, he is:
a) unsympathetic to the Zionist state - which neutral wouldn't be after yesterday's incidents in Gaza; and
b) hostile to entrepreneurs perceived as malevolent, in which he is not alone - see previous thread about Viktor Orban and his attitude to Gyorgy Soros, who happens to be a Jew of Magyar origin.
Neither attitude is likely to be generally unpopular, so Corbyn can afford to brazen this issue out, given that he has re-invigorated the Labour party and it is performing reasonably electorally.
We need more polling on how much this is damaging both brand Labour and brand Corbyn.
A country with a government pursuing an explicit policy of breaking up international cooperation certainly doesn't qualify.
From being propaganda minister he's now British ambassador. A far more grotesque monster than Corbyn whatever label you pin on him
There is a huge amount of smoke coming off this one with people not understanding where the fire is. Corbyn is a campaigner AGAINST racism, he doesn't aid and abet anti-semitism and some of the claims made that he does are silly. His problem is that he is a staunch anti-imperialist and that has aligned and allied him with a long list of people who ARE anti-semitic. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...
Nor is there a problem with anti-semitism in the Labour Party. We have members who are racists, sexists, homophobes etc - we are a microcosm of society as all parties are. Its self-evident that there are more bigoted people in the Tory party but the focus is on us, we can't fix other parties so we have to fix ourselves. Of our c. 600k members we have had 300 issues of anti-semitism raised as complaints. That is a very small problem rather than a very big one.
The BIG problem is the membership. Yes Momentum organise but they are still a fringe group, are bitterly internally divided and factious, and the idea that it was their activists (as opposed to Labour activists) who saved the election simply isn't true.
More to follow...
Our problem is the membership, specifically the Corbyn Ultras who see their man as the saviour. They disown all that came before him, 2015 was their year zero, and they are motivated and active in trying to rescue the Labour Party from its MPs officials councillors and existing activists - we're all Blairite red Tories and they are the true socialists as witnessed by them campaigning against us.
They defend him to the death. On Facebook they're still insisting that mural wasn't anti-semitic long after JC apologied for it so being, they're screaming about plots from Blairites even after Rebecca Long-Bailey and John McDonnell joined it. They denounce any Jewish voice that isn't the Jewish Voice for Labour as non-authentic or biased or lying, especially the century affiliated Jewish Labour Movement who at best are "Tories" and at worst are "funded by Israel"
This mentality (and it IS mental) means they see any suspension or expulsion of their people as part of the Blairite plot against Jeremy. Witness that lunatic Shawcroft, installed as head of the complaints body who gives support to an anti-semite, then claims not to have looked at the evidence (why bother, he's a Corbynite), then resigns and screams that its all a Blairite plot.
You cannot filter "is this person anti-semitic" through a filter of "do they support Jeremy". But that is the filter, and that is why we have an anti-semitism problem.
More to follow...
Mr. Recidivist, sad to hear that. Perhaps if the Remain campaign had actually made arguments about why the EU is a good thing, rather than fear-mongering and complaining about the woe of leaving (and over-egging it, so that more credible claims were taken less seriously because of what had been said before) they would have won.
What do "moderates" do? The vast majority of the 600k membership are inactive, they only vote for the leader and give us their subs. As CLP Secretary I know that every email I send out about meetings or campaigning or participate will be met with several members unsubscribing from the mailing list. So the idea of removing Jeremy can be struck off as its impossible.
I think this anti-semitism thing will be the millstone that Corbyn will never shake off. I branded him "Jezbollah" a few years ago on this forum and his association with anti-semitic groups and people will indeed haunt him to his political grave. But he would need to resign as he can't be removed. Thats why I read the "McDonnell is on manuevers" comments and nod. "For the good of all we have achieved so far Jeremy, this can't go on". A soft voice from one of his closest allies at his moment of weakness would be enough, he can retire to martyrdom and the 118 year old party carries on without him.
The Sugar tweet is just an image. But it is a generation defining one. Politics is the Undiscovered Country - we have no idea how we will look post-Brexit never mind what that will do to politics. But I struggle with how Jezbollah can ever shake this off now
How has Corbyn done personally in dealing with antisemitism in the Labour Party? 61% Well, 33% Badly, 6% Don't Know.
How is Corbyn doing as Labour leader? 80% Well, 19% Badly, 1% Don't Know.
Jezza should be capable of clearing house and criticizing the excesses of the IDF. If Corbyn can't scratch his arse and pick his nose simultaneously he's certainly not fit for purpose as a putative Prime Minister.
Absolutely anyone with anti-semitic views should be kicked out.
But people don't think Corbyn is anti-semitic, and I don't think comparing him to Hitler will change their minds.
A new moderate Labour Party? No, that wouldn't be the project. It would be the new centre party home to Blair Cameron and Clegg and all their acolytes. Much of what is politics is hot air and posturing for effect, these guys and their supporters have similar views of the world and vs the extreme elements destroying their parties (OK I accept that Clegg IS the extreme element who destroyed his party)
The UK can hardly say it is a force for good in the world if it is one election away from having such people controlling our international position on acceptable morality.
If he is replaced by another extremist, then would be the time to split. If somebody sane can turn the heads of the members back to reality, then the chance can be seized.
Criticism of Israeli policies or politicians is fine. If your aim is a safe secure Israel alongside a safe and secure Palestine. But most people slagging off Israel see its entire existence as the problem, and then start banging on about the Israel lobby which is a secret network of rich Jews incidiously pushing propaganda to drive their own agenda - classic anti-semitism
Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.
It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.
.
He would no longer be the most useless PM of all time.
Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
I strongly recommend PB followers to AVOID placing long term bets with Ladbrokes
They need to bite the bus and form SDP2 with the Lib Dems. Macron has shown there is far more opportunity to do this in the age of social media and smartphones. The more time they do it before an election, the better organised they can be. They can then argue for a leader and platform they actually believe in. Why else did they go into politics?
As the Septics used to say ... Why listen to an old man now, if when he was in his thirties, you wouldn't have trusted him to direct you to the local convenience store?
Mrs May is a poor politician and so is Jezza, but she has the benefit of being brighter.
I take on board @SouthamObserver 's point about Cameron, and I'm glad you feel the same as me. But I do know some colleagues who take the enemy of my enemy is my friend and see saner people in the moderate wing of the Tories. Strip the leaders away from it, I can see a party that takes moderate elements of both parties.
Those of you not in the Labour Party need to understand how dire this is. We have been taken over by hooligans. In the bad old days "Football" supporters would deck themselves in the colours of a team and go to matches, but their interest was in a fight not football.
The same is true with these Corbyn Ultras. They have no interest in the Labour Party or the wider movement. No interest in our basic values and beliefs. No interest in power - they just want a fight. The majority of the new membership are not activists and I don't speak of them, just the hardcore agitators. They are using Corbyn as the figurehead for their anarchist movement to tear apart the Labour Party, and he is a fool for being used this way. They attack anything and everything that is "the enemy" of Jeremy - our MPs, our staff, our councillors, our existing activists. If you were here before Jeremy you are the enemy.
Which is why when Shawcroft gets elevated to the top of the NEC she is more than happy to denounce the Trade Unions who formed this movement and still fund it, and to harbour absolutely anyone no matter how disgusting their views as long as they support Corbyn. She has gone, but they will put up someone similar. And the half million sleeping members, feeding on the cult leader materials thrown at them, will keep voting to keep the Ultras in power
"Its self-evident that there are more bigoted people in the Tory party but the focus is on us"
No - it really isn't self evident. That is just Labour feeling good about Labour because it is Labour. Stop clutching the blue blanket of "the other lot are even worse". In this instance, they really aren't. And leave us to sort out our miscreants (if what I am saying is bollocks).
My views on Labour are essentially irrelevant, as I won't vote for the party, but the views of someone who is committed to the party are well worth reading.
What seems clear is that we are dreadfully short of leadership as a nation. The Tories have a Zombie in the chair, with a choice of Dumb and Dumber waiting in the wings. Labour have a naive patsy in the chair with a choice of even more naive (Long-Bailey), even more dangerous (McDonnell) or grey irrelevance (take your pick of continuity New Labour fools). The LibDems went supernova and have the man from the Werthers Original advert apparently as leader though nobody has seen them to confirm it. The Kippers fell apart and bust themselves trying to pretend it wasn't the Farage Party.
Show me a UK politician with the ideas and the pizzazz to lead us through the Brexit minefield and fix the many structural faults in the economy. Who isn't Scottish and refuses to cross Hadrian's Wall...
Edited extra bit: if she (think it was a female politician) had been around in Roman times she might well have opposed mosaics of unpleasant things being permitted
Our political system works best when we agree on basic principles and can progress national development over a longer period than the electoral cycle. We have had decade long spells of alignment which both sides will not have liked in hindsight - SuperMac campaigning proudly on how many hundreds of thousands of council houses his Conservative government had built, Blair campaigning on cool Britannia culturally exporting to the world making everyone better off.
Both parties have been swamped by nastiness. I see a Tory party utterly indifferent to human suffering created by its policies. I see a Labour party utterly indifferent to the idea that we need profit-making enterprise to provide those secure well paid jobs they want for people. If both parties indulge in naval-gazing not only do we get policies that damage the nation economically and socially, we find it very hard to actually do anything of substance. If we want big global industrials and we want entrepreneurial drive and we want working people not to be reliant on foodbanks and we want world class health and education and infrastructure we actually need each other.
I'm tribal, you're tribal. But we all want a Greater Britain. Or we did, until we decided holding power became more important than using power. I no more want a Tory party led by amoral wazzocks than you want a Labour Party led by naive anti-imperialists. Because it gives planning permission for nutters in the other party to rise up.
I'm not, but I am advocating basic British values. If we at least agree on those then the other party being in power is less of a threat.
It is interesting though if the Tories would fragment more, should labour split and the fear not hold the Tories together, and so in fact a split labour wouldn’t do as bad as thought.
But labour members are pretty happy it seems, so no split.
There it is in a nutshell. The whataboutery argument every time. Where's the evidence for this statement? All we have seen in the last few weeks is a stream of racism from the Left and people who claim to be her majesty's opposition.
Plus - god help us - imagine that they help put that man and his fellow travelers in power.
Even the guns issue is at best peripheral, there’s plenty of other countries full of guns where these incidents don’t happen - although the method of the crime does maximise casualties when incidents do happen.
In any event, my understanding is that the Gaza border fence is not electrified. The border with Egypt is electrified but not that with Gaza. If it is, the fact that it was breached two days ago rather gives the lie to your "impossible to break through" argument.
I don't watch the news so I don't know how this story is being covered, but out of curiosity I have just spent 15 minutes looking at the social media profile of my local councillor. I know her personally and vote for her. She's a nice old woman in her seventies, yet surprisingly effective. Basically the kind of person who keeps politics going for the rest of us, often without any thanks.
I couldn't find any evidence of anti-semitism but she is very interested in animal welfare and has retweeted some memes from animal rights groups. It wouldn't be tremendously difficult to portray her as someone who supports violent extremists. Actually, I wonder what I would make of her just looking at her Facebook page in isolation. I think I probably would conclude that she was a bit potty and consider not voting for her.
Although I'm English I have a name which sounds Jewish, so I have rather bizarrely been on the receiving end of low level anti-semitism myself and also heard it expressed openly by people who know I'm not Jewish. It is definitely something that the right are more prone to than the left - though luckily not very prevalent.
So I'll take all these stories about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party with extreme skepticism until someone comes up with some actual evidence.
Between 2 bins.
Definitely deserves an rt by Emily T.
https://twitter.com/CllrBSilvester/status/847017914951761922
How would you recommend that the Israeli army (many of whom are teenagers) should deal with people rolling burning tyres at them?
And the demand for “right of return” is - as they know - something that can only be achieved as part of an overall peace settlement. One would ask why - after 70 years - the Jordanians have not allowed the Palestians to integrate (most if the RoR individuals don’t live in Gaza)
Israel often overreacts but you need to remember they face an existential threat from
Implacable enemies
I very much hope all parties are devoting resources to trying to identify their bad elements. Certainly no one wants a situation where people are punished by having their views misrepresented, but if one leader accepts there is sufficient evidence of there being a problem, maybe there is in the others too.
Do you have any idea why they closed down your account?
https://twitter.com/Joo_Gaza/status/979752738354548737