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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Playing the long game: what do Labour’s moderates do?

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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676

    If members will indulge me I'm going to write a few perspectives from inside the party from what I consider to be a "neutral" position...

    There is a huge amount of smoke coming off this one with people not understanding where the fire is. Corbyn is a campaigner AGAINST racism, he doesn't aid and abet anti-semitism and some of the claims made that he does are silly. His problem is that he is a staunch anti-imperialist and that has aligned and allied him with a long list of people who ARE anti-semitic. The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

    Nor is there a problem with anti-semitism in the Labour Party. We have members who are racists, sexists, homophobes etc - we are a microcosm of society as all parties are. Its self-evident that there are more bigoted people in the Tory party but the focus is on us, we can't fix other parties so we have to fix ourselves. Of our c. 600k members we have had 300 issues of anti-semitism raised as complaints. That is a very small problem rather than a very big one.

    The BIG problem is the membership. Yes Momentum organise but they are still a fringe group, are bitterly internally divided and factious, and the idea that it was their activists (as opposed to Labour activists) who saved the election simply isn't true.

    More to follow...

    It is weak weak leadership, trying to be all things to all persons and not having enough backbone to stand up for their principles. Corbyn is typical of politician's, condemns a lot but goes along with it to help keep votes etc. Like his lying about CND etc but happy to vote for Trident. The man is a lying toerag like the rest of them and fact that he lasted over 30 years at Westminster trough without anyone having ever heard of him is incredible.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Unless Momentum move on from deselecting moderate councillors to deselecting moderate Labour MPs, which is not impossible, there will be no mass defections of Labour MPs to a new centrist, Europhile SDP2 with the LDs.

    Therefore the only way Corbyn is going to be removed given his strong support with Labour Party members is by the voters as a whole giving the Tories an overall majority at the next general election
  • kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sober analysis.

    The only thing that didn’t quite chime for me was this:
    “Other than that, the moderates must hope that the faddists simply get bored with the Corbyn project and move on, leaving enough scope to act when the opportunity arises.”

    I think the Labour Party membership are engaged and fired up.
    I could see members giving up after a big defeat - but just drifting away feels unlikely...

    I think part of the Labour Party membership is fired up. But a large part of that is only fired up to be active behind a screen - on Twitter or similar places. And whilst that might have some actual campaigning use - a lot of it is hot air (and, as we have seen, some very nasty stuff has been posted)

    Keyboard warriors are all very well - but they aren't as effective as boots on the ground. And for many, that is a bit too much effort.

    And there is also a significant minority of Labour members who are just sitting quiet in the hope that their party eventually sobers up.

    This is all about differential turn out. The ongoing coverage of internal Labour struggles won't help drive people to the polls on 3rd May. There are plenty who identify as Labour but who will struggle to vote for the current party.
    Reports from GE2017 were that Momentum and/or the Corbynites were putting their feet on the ground.
    Certainly did in Wiltshire. Either that or it was a complete coincidence that at the same time as the corbynite surge they became much more active and effective.
    I'm probably not seeing Momentum at their best. Here on Teesside its heavily divided with people who turned scab and campaigned against Labour trying to lead it and not getting traction with the genuinely new entrants.

    Momentum are trying to replace the Labour Party. Their own membership fee. Their own activist training. Their own conference and events. And yes they claim that its their activists on the ground. But the activists are Labour activists. And when there wasn't a Momentum we still managed to awaken non-active members and deploy them around the country to target seats. In elections before 2017 we still had people coming from all over the place to campaign for us. Sticking a Momentum banner on them doesn't make it any different
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    CD13 said:

    With some of the youth, Jezza enjoys the image of being a kindly old grandparent pottering around with his harmless hobbies, yet inspired to make the country a more equal place. Or perhaps a wise old uncle.

    As the Septics used to say ... Why listen to an old man now, if when he was in his thirties, you wouldn't have trusted him to direct you to the local convenience store?

    Mrs May is a poor politician and so is Jezza, but she has the benefit of being brighter.

    Jezza is Michael Foot without the brains and principles.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    CD13 said:

    To be fair, the fuss seems a little over the top.

    Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.

    It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.

    Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.

    Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.

    He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.

    McDonnell (and possibly Tom Watson) really needs to go and have a less than polite word in Corbyn’s shell-like. It must be close to being an existential threat to the party, as it was in the 1980s with Militant. I can’t imagine there’s not half the PLP seriously contemplating their future this weekend.
    I can believe it. Haven’t people like cooper already said they have no problem campaigning to put Corbyn in no. 10? That’s not surprising, they’re all still labour, but it shows there’s no existential crisis. This is exactly what it appears to be - on this issue many in the plp think he has acted inadequately, but they have no real issue with him otherwise, only some minor policy issues,
    I wouldn’t say they have no real issues or even that it’s just minor policy issues. I think they know though that the idea that a centre party is going to be successful in peeling off a lot of Corbyn’s vote is unlikely. We’ve had a centre party now as an alternative to Corbyn’s Labour for sometime in the LDs and it’s still polling very badly. It’s clear not all Labour voters like Corbyn, but so far it seems getting the Tories out is more of a motivating factor in their decision making then repulsion at Labour at the moment.
    If someone is content to remain in a party and happy to actively work to place its leadership in power, then to my mind that demonstrates they hold no significant concerns, whatever they might claim while sobbing anonymously to a journalist. If they hold significant concerns but lack the ability to change matters-then they can at least speak out, but they only seem to on a few issues. That leads me to conclude they are happy, or merely gutless.
    I think they’re avoiding speaking out because of the fear of deselection tbh.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    CD13 said:

    To be fair, the fuss seems a little over the top.

    Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.

    It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.

    Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.

    Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.

    He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.

    McDonnell (and possibly Tom Watson) really needs to go and have a less than polite word in Corbyn’s shell-like. It must be close to being an existential threat to the party, as it was in the 1980s with Militant. I can’t imagine there’s not half the PLP seriously contemplating their future this weekend.
    I can believe it. Haven’t people like cooper already said they have no problem campaigning to put Corbyn in no. 10? That’s not surprising, they’re all still labour, but it shows there’s no existential crisis. This is exactly what it appears to be - on this issue many in the plp think he has acted inadequately, but they have no real issue with him otherwise, only some minor policy issues,
    I wouldn’t say they have no real issues or even that it’s just minor policy issues. I think they know though that the idea that a centre party is going to be successful in peeling off a lot of Corbyn’s vote is unlikely. We’ve had a centre party now as an alternative to Corbyn’s Labour for sometime in the LDs and it’s still polling very badly. It’s clear not all Labour voters like Corbyn, but so far it seems getting the Tories out is more of a motivating factor in their decision making then repulsion at Labour at the moment.
    If someone is content to remain in a party and happy to actively work to place its leadership in power, then to my mind that demonstrates they hold no significant concerns, whatever they might claim while sobbing anonymously to a journalist. If they hold significant concerns but lack the ability to change matters-then they can at least speak out, but they only seem to on a few issues. That leads me to conclude they are happy, or merely gutless.
    I think they’re avoiding speaking out because of the fear of deselection tbh.
    What a toxic atmosphere
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    The settler issue is very difficult. Often it’s not government sanctioned - the settler movement (on the nutty wing plus, I think, with their own party in the Knesset) is very independent - but the government should be more active in throwing them out when they steal land
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Sober analysis.

    The only thing that didn’t quite chime for me was this:
    “Other than that, the moderates must hope that the faddists simply get bored with the Corbyn project and move on, leaving enough scope to act when the opportunity arises.”

    I think the Labour Party membership are engaged and fired up.
    I could see members giving up after a big defeat - but just drifting away feels unlikely...

    I think part of the Labour Party membership is fired up. But a large part of that is only fired up to be active behind a screen - on Twitter or similar places. And whilst that might have some actual campaigning use - a lot of it is hot air (and, as we have seen, some very nasty stuff has been posted)

    Keyboard warriors are all very well - but they aren't as effective as boots on the ground. And for many, that is a bit too much effort.

    And there is also a significant minority of Labour members who are just sitting quiet in the hope that their party eventually sobers up.

    This is all about differential turn out. The ongoing coverage of internal Labour struggles won't help drive people to the polls on 3rd May. There are plenty who identify as Labour but who will struggle to vote for the current party.
    Reports from GE2017 were that Momentum and/or the Corbynites were putting their feet on the ground.
    Certainly did in Wiltshire. Either that or it was a complete coincidence that at the same time as the corbynite surge they became much more active and effective.
    I'm probably not seeing Momentum at their best. Here on Teesside its heavily divided with people who turned scab and campaigned against Labour trying to lead it and not getting traction with the genuinely new entrants.

    Momentum are trying to replace the Labour Party. Their own membership fee. Their own activist training. Their own conference and events. And yes they claim that its their activists on the ground. But the activists are Labour activists. And when there wasn't a Momentum we still managed to awaken non-active members and deploy them around the country to target seats. In elections before 2017 we still had people coming from all over the place to campaign for us. Sticking a Momentum banner on them doesn't make it any different
    In fairness I don’t know the local improvement in what was a desert for the party was down to momentum itself or just from the surge in membership generally, but from what I can tell they are hardcore corbynites at least.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    Interesting wording "no serious threat reported to any Israeli"

    Was it reported to someone else?

    How do you define "serious"?

    Whatever you think of the government of Israel they don't make a habit of killing people for laughs - they just are more tolerant of civilian causalities in achieving their objectives than we are. (And Hamas frequently uses civilians as a human shield).

    Perhaps you have a link with more detail?
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests/israeli-forces-kill-16-palestinians-in-gaza-border-protests-gaza-medics-idUSKBN1H60AV
    I would note that the vast majority of the injuries were tear gas which, while unpleasant, is transitory. Rubber bullets are more serious, clearly, and to conflate the numbers.

    How would you recommend that the Israeli army (many of whom are teenagers) should deal with people rolling burning tyres at them?

    And the demand for “right of return” is - as they know - something that can only be achieved as part of an overall peace settlement. One would ask why - after 70 years - the Jordanians have not allowed the Palestians to integrate (most if the RoR individuals don’t live in Gaza)

    Israel often overreacts but you need to remember they face an existential threat from
    Implacable enemies
    Maybe giving them back their property would help rather than tear gassing and shooting at them.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    HYUFD said:

    Unless Momentum move on from deselecting moderate councillors to deselecting moderate Labour MPs, which is not impossible, there will be no mass defections of Labour MPs to a new centrist, Europhile SDP2 with the LDs.

    Therefore the only way Corbyn is going to be removed given his strong support with Labour Party members is by the voters as a whole giving the Tories an overall majority at the next general election

    I am not convinced that a defeat will see the Corbyn cult accepting the reality of the situation. They will blame everyone and everything else - it will be the fault of the media, Labour moderates, the media and anyone else they can think of.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    CD13 said:

    To be fair, the fuss seems a little over the top
    It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.

    Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.

    Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.

    He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.

    McDonnell (and possibly Tom Watson) really needs to go and have a less than polite word in Corbyn’s shell-like. It must be close to being an existential threat to the party, as it was in the 1980s with Militant. I can’t imagine there’s not half the PLP seriously contemplating their future this weekend.
    I can believe it. Haven’t people like cooper already said they have no problem campaigning to put Corbyn in no. 10? That’s not surprising, they’re all still labour, but it shows there’s no existential crisis. This is exactly what it appears to be - on this issue many in the plp think he has acted inadequately, but they have no real issue with him otherwise, only some minor policy issues,
    I wouldn’t say they have no real issues or even that it’s just minor policy issues. I think they know though that the idea that a centre party is going to be successful in peeling off a lot of Corbyn’s vote is unlikely. We’ve had a centre party now as an alternative to Corbyn’s Labour for sometime in the LDs and it’s still polling very badly. It’s clear not all Labour voters like Corbyn, but so far it seems getting the Tories out is more of a motivating factor in their decision making then repulsion at Labour at the moment.
    If someone is content to remain in a party and happy to actively work to place its leadership in power, then to my mind that demonstrates they hold no significant concerns, whatever they might claim while sobbing anonymously to a journalist. If they hold significant concerns but lack the ability to change matters-then they can at least speak out, but they only seem to on a few issues. That leads me to conclude they are happy, or merely gutless.
    I think they’re avoiding speaking out because of the fear of deselection tbh.
    But the deselections are coming anyway. By not speaking out now they’re condoning the problem.
  • kle4 said:


    If someone is content to remain in a party and happy to actively work to place its leadership in power, then to my mind that demonstrates they hold no significant concerns, whatever they might claim while sobbing anonymously to a journalist. If they hold significant concerns but lack the ability to change matters-then they can at least speak out, but they only seem to on a few issues. That leads me to conclude they are happy, or merely gutless.

    My CLP is "moderate". The majority of newer members don't turn up, which means the "old guard" remain in charge. That having only been elected to the exec in 2015 and having been a sleeping/sulking/living my life not involved in politics for a few years makes me the "old guard" tells all about how people see 2015 as Year Zero.

    We do have shouting matches at times. After one of them I asked the meeting if anybody here didn't want Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister - not one hand raised. Even the people who hate the man and his wing of the party would rather have a Labour government than a Tory one - being tribal means I'd take any Labour government over any Tory one.

    "Happy or Gutless" is one view, mine is that whilst others as leader would be preferable to Jeremy, Jeremy as PM would be preferable to Theresa May. And some of the dafter suggestions like encouraging people to boycott elections in protest is the same as going full scab and actually voting Tory. We disagree on the choice of who leads the Labour Party, we don't disagree in our want to be rid of the Tory government.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Rochdale Pioneers, we are really not as far apart as you might think. I have many Labour friends (a sizeable chunk of whom are in your boat, if not rowing even further away from Corbyn Labour as a result of the current furore). Politics doesn't get in the way of friendships. And to big us up, Tories in my experience are generally very decent people who care. At local level, they do a pretty good job of keeping nice places nice by being protective and nurturing. They are likely to be at the heart of their communities, "doing their bit" on numerous committees and charities.

    Your bigger issue is with how you perceive Tories in national Government. OK, so we get things wrong. We have been slow to be convinced. But hey, we are the party that has gone from Section 28 to allowing gay marriage in a generation. We have moved from being bent out of shape by religious adherents (albeit, CoE) to taking the right course - even at the expense of losing some votes. Would that Labour did the same. We have had two women Prime Ministers whilst Labour is 43 years behind us on even electing a female party leader. 43 years and counting.

    The hardest part of being a Tory in national Government is we ALWAYS come into power after Labour has screwed the economy. It is no coincidence that every Labour Govt. has left office with employment lower than it inherited. If that isn't a damning indication that the party of the working man has a broken business model, I don't know what is. Tory Government is the nation's dentist, having to fill cavities and extract teeth after years of Labour Governments giving out sweeties as if they had no consequence. And that isn't flippant. They are not dishing out the essentials of a basic minimum quality of life, if they lead the poorest to expect that the safety net is higher and softer than is ever sustainable over a longer period of Government than they manage.

    In essence, Tory Governments have to come in and walk around offering a plate of shit sandwiches, because that is all Labour left in the fridge. It would be wonderful to come into office having meaningful choices to make. But we never get that luxury. We have to implement 51/49 decisions where both options are going to hurt somebody. And we get villified by people who take no responsibility whatsoever for the underlying reasons, who think we Tories get a hard-on when we hear "austerity".

    And the assumption is that we are always expected to get the decisions of Government right, always have the answers to remedy Labour's mess. Usually we do. Exhibit A, current employment rates. Exhibit B, Michael Gove in his current role, winning glowing reviews from leftist environmentalists. But not always. And boy, do we get those not always thrown back at us with venom. But hey, that's the price of being a Tory. You get to live off shit sandwiches, while pulling out rotten teeth....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    Sandpit said:

    CD13 said:

    To be fair, the fuss seems a little over the top.

    Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.

    It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.

    Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.

    Excellent series of posts from @RochdalePioneers who explains the situation well. Corbyn needs to get the antisemites out of his party, and just as importantly be seen to do it. Maybe start with Ken Livingstone and Christine Shawcroft.
    He is a weak dullard and will keep Labour circling the drain , a useless half witted weak dotard.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    Unless Momentum move on from deselecting moderate councillors to deselecting moderate Labour MPs, which is not impossible, there will be no mass defections of Labour MPs to a new centrist, Europhile SDP2 with the LDs.

    Therefore the only way Corbyn is going to be removed given his strong support with Labour Party members is by the voters as a whole giving the Tories an overall majority at the next general election

    I am not convinced that a defeat will see the Corbyn cult accepting the reality of the situation. They will blame everyone and everything else - it will be the fault of the media, Labour moderates, the media and anyone else they can think of.
    If post defeat a majority of members didn't moce on from Corbynism Chuka Umunna etc would almost certainly form a new UK En Marche breakaway party anyway.

    So at the next general election either Corbyn becomes PM or he loses and the Labour Party splits if a more moderate leader does not replace him
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    CD13 said:

    To be fair, the fuss seems a little over the top.

    Jezza's views are well known so why the furore now? He sides with anyone who hates the West and as this includes plenty of some anti-semites, they'll naturally be the goodies. Being under-dogs, they can do no wrong.

    It's one-dimensional, but cut him some slack - he's not the sharpest cutlery in the drawer.

    Cut him some slack? He wants to be Prime Minister, he needs to be challenged and challenged hard.

    Excellent series of posts.

    He won’t do it. McDonnell would. Jeremy won’t.

    McDonnell (and possibly Tom Watson) really needsparty, as it was in the 1980s with Militant. I can’t imagine there’s not half the PLP seriously contemplating their future this weekend.
    I can believe it,
    I wouldn’t say they have no real issues or even that it’s just minor policy issues. I think they know though that the idea that a centre party is going to be successful in peeling off a lot of Corbyn’s vote is unlikely. We’ve had a centre party now as an alternative to Corbyn’s Labour for sometime in the LDs and it’s still polling very badly. It’s clear not all Labour voters like Corbyn, but so far it seems getting the Tories out is more of a motivating factor in their decision making then repulsion at Labour at the moment.
    If someone is content to remain in a party and happy to actively work to place its leadership in power, then to my mind that demonstrates they hold no significant concerns, whatever they might claim while sobbing anonymously to a journalist. If they hold significant concerns but lack the ability to change matters-then they can at least speak out, but they only seem to on a few issues. That leads me to conclude they are happy, or merely gutless.
    I think they’re avoiding speaking out because of the fear of deselection tbh.
    That may well be so. But they are supposed to be there to do good, not just be there - if they are supporting people and policies they don’t like simply out of fear of losing their position it is very understandable, but I don’t have much sympathy with their plight. Of course all MPs will accept voting the party line when they don’t like it some of the time, that’s fair, but if the differences are fundamental, well, there’d be proof of that in concrete action. Most don’t have that.

    I’ve concluded ed they are merely bog standard awkward squads. They’re on the outs, but talk of deep splits is just them being dramatic,
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    Interesting wording "no serious threat reported to any Israeli"

    Was it reported to someone else?

    How do you define "serious"?

    Whatever you think of the government of Israel they don't make a habit of killing people for laughs - they just are more tolerant of civilian causalities in achieving their objectives than we are. (And Hamas frequently uses civilians as a human shield).

    Perhaps you have a link with more detail?
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests/israeli-forces-kill-16-palestinians-in-gaza-border-protests-gaza-medics-idUSKBN1H60AV
    I would note that the vast majority of the injuries were tear gas which, while unpleasant, is transitory. Rubber bullets are more serious, clearly, and to conflate the numbers.

    How would you recommend that the Israeli army (many of whom are teenagers) should deal with people rolling burning tyres at them?

    And the demand for “right of return” is - as they know - something that can only be achieved as part of an overall peace settlement. One would ask why - after 70 years - the Jordanians have not allowed the Palestians to integrate (most if the RoR individuals don’t live in Gaza)

    Israel often overreacts but you need to remember they face an existential threat from
    Implacable enemies
    Maybe giving them back their property would help rather than tear gassing and shooting at them.
    Israel has offered full financial compensation - the issue is after 70 years the land is no longer abandoned. (And, immediately after the war, Israel offered the right of return - those that did are now Israeli Arabs with full voting and other rights in a democratic society).

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    kle4 said:


    If someone is content to remain in a party and happy to actively work to place its leadership in power, then to my mind that demonstrates they hold no significant concerns, whatever they might claim while sobbing anonymously to a journalist. If they hold significant concerns but lack the ability to change matters-then they can at least speak out, but they only seem to on a few issues. That leads me to conclude they are happy, or merely gutless.

    My CLP is "moderate". The majority of newer members don't turn up, which means the "old guard" remain in charge. That having only been elected to the exec in 2015 and having been a sleeping/sulking/living my life not involved in politics for a few years makes me the "old guard" tells all about how people see 2015 as Year Zero.

    We do have shouting matches at times. After one of them I asked the meeting if anybody here didn't want Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister - not one hand raised. Even the people who hate the man and his wing of the party would rather have a Labour government than a Tory one - being tribal means I'd take any Labour government over any Tory one.

    "Happy or Gutless" is one view, mine is that whilst others as leader would be preferable to Jeremy, Jeremy as PM would be preferable to Theresa May. And some of the dafter suggestions like encouraging people to boycott elections in protest is the same as going full scab and actually voting Tory. We disagree on the choice of who leads the Labour Party, we don't disagree in our want to be rid of the Tory government.
    In my experience though - the same is not always true in the other direction.
    There are (a small number of) people who will say - no point electing xyz over a Tory - they're basically the same.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 326

    My CLP is "moderate". The majority of newer members don't turn up, which means the "old guard" remain in charge. That having only been elected to the exec in 2015 and having been a sleeping/sulking/living my life not involved in politics for a few years makes me the "old guard" tells all about how people see 2015 as Year Zero.

    Unless you're in a very strange CLP, the majority of older members don't turn up to meetings either.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    kle4 said:


    If someone is content to remain in a party and happy to actively work to place its leadership in power, then to my mind that demonstrates they hold no significant concerns, whatever they might claim while sobbing anonymously to a journalist. If they hold significant concerns but lack the ability to change matters-then they can at least speak out, but they only seem to on a few issues. That leads me to conclude they are happy, or merely gutless.

    My CLP is "moderate". The majority of newer members don't turn up, which means the "old guard" remain in charge. That having only been elected to the exec in 2015 and having been a sleeping/sulking/living my life not involved in politics for a few years makes me the "old guard" tells all about how people see 2015 as Year Zero.

    We do have shouting matches at times. After one of them I asked the meeting if anybody here didn't want Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister - not one hand raised. Even the people who hate the man and his wing of the party would rather have a Labour government than a Tory one - being tribal means I'd take any Labour government over any Tory one.

    "Happy or Gutless" is one view, mine is that whilst others as leader would be preferable to Jeremy, Jeremy as PM would be preferable to Theresa May. And some of the dafter suggestions like encouraging people to boycott elections in protest is the same as going full scab and actually voting Tory. We disagree on the choice of who leads the Labour Party, we don't disagree in our want to be rid of the Tory government.
    Ultimately, right wing and left wing governments will rotate in and out of power. If the Tories win in 2022 they will lose in 2027. It's the law of political gravity.

    What isn't certain is whether the alliance of Western democracies will remain in control of international politics during this critical time. Whether principles of democracy and human rights are felt as major pressures or whether that breaks down and we return to 1800s style "might makes right". That is already massively under threat from Trump knocking out the US from Obama's progress. The UK dropping from the Western alliance could be the nail in the coffin.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    The settler issue is very difficult. Often it’s not government sanctioned - the settler movement (on the nutty wing plus, I think, with their own party in the Knesset) is very independent - but the government should be more active in throwing them out when they steal land
    Exactly , the Israeli government stand back and do nothing other than build high walls and fences, they are 100% culpable. Their inaction is deliberate.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    The settler issue is very difficult. Often it’s not government sanctioned - the settler movement (on the nutty wing plus, I think, with their own party in the Knesset) is very independent - but the government should be more active in throwing them out when they steal land
    Not government sanctioned? The Israeli government regularly retroactively legalises them.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    My thanks to David Herdson as I have just realised it's Saturday.
    Any Labour splitters know from the experience of the old SDP traitors in the 80s,the only thing a new "centrist" party would achieve under FPTP is a certain Tory victory.Some members of the Labour right, still under the influence of "The Master" TB himself,may yet decide to split because they would prefer a Tory government to a Labour one led by Mr Corbyn.
    The sensible play for them is to get behind a changed electoral system based on some form of PR and then the split makes more electoral sense but even then the Labour "brand" has shown itself highly resilient.The point about short money is a good one too.Without the "brand",no amount of Bernie Ecclestones would be good enough to fill the hole.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,538
    Off-topic:

    The second story in the link below might amuse horse-racing punters:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43073391
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    The settler issue is very difficult. Often it’s not government sanctioned - the settler movement (on the nutty wing plus, I think, with their own party in the Knesset) is very independent - but the government should be more active in throwing them out when they steal land
    Exactly , the Israeli government stand back and do nothing other than build high walls and fences, they are 100% culpable. Their inaction is deliberate.
    The security fence is understandable - before the fence there were bus bombs every few days. But the settlers should be dealt with in accordance with the law. If they are taking land that is not theirs they share kid be cleared off it
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited March 2018

    kle4 said:


    If someone is content to remain in a party and happy to actively work to place its leadership in power, then to my mind that demonstrates they hold no significant concerns, whatever they might claim while sobbing anonymously to a journalist. If they hold significant concerns but lack the ability to change matters-then they can at least speak out, but they only seem to on a few issues. That leads me to conclude they are happy, or merely gutless.

    My CLP is "moderate". The majority of newer members don't turn up, which means the "old guard" remain in charge. That having only been elected to the exec in 2015 and having been a sleeping/sulking/living my life not involved in politics for a few years makes me the "old guard" tells all about how people see 2015 as Year Zero.

    We do have shouting matches at times. After one of them I asked the meeting if anybody here didn't want Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister - not one hand raised. Even the people who hate the man and his wing of the party would rather have a Labour government than a Tory one - being tribal means I'd take any Labour government over any Tory one.

    "Happy or Gutless" is one view, mine is that whilst others as leader would be preferable to Jeremy, Jeremy as PM would be preferable to Theresa May. And some of the dafter suggestions like encouraging people to boycott elections in protest is the same as going full scab and actually voting Tory. We disagree on the choice of who leads the Labour Party, we don't disagree in our want to be rid of the Tory government.
    My language was deliberately provocative, and more focused on the MPs always moaning off the record, but the central point I think you are accepting - Corbyn as pm is better than a Tory pm. Therefore, it seems fair to suggest even Corbyn’s opponents are happy with him apart from minor disputes.

    On the outside here some think the Labour Party are having a crisis and are getting g excited, and you’ve laid out some issues you see from within. But if the tribal spell is in no danger, and it isn’t, then there’s not really a crisis at all as far as I see it. If you back someone to be pm there are no substantive concerns I would think. If leaving were unpalatable due to the alternatives someone would simply not help it happen if they had real concern, since there is no non Corbyn labour gov to elect right now.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    Interesting wording "no serious threat reported to any Israeli"

    Was it reported to someone else?

    How do you define "serious"?

    Whatever you think of the government of Israel they don't make a habit of killing people for laughs - they just are more tolerant of civilian causalities in achieving their objectives than we are. (And Hamas frequently uses civilians as a human shield).

    Perhaps you have a link with more detail?
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests/israeli-forces-kill-16-palestinians-in-gaza-border-protests-gaza-medics-idUSKBN1H60AV
    I would note that the vast majority of the injuries were tear gas which, while unpleasant, is transitory. Rubber bullets are more serious, clearly, and to conflate the numbers.

    How would you recommend that the Israeli army (many of whom are teenagers) should deal with people rolling burning tyres at them?

    And the demand for “right of return” is - as they know - something that can only be achieved as part of an overall peace settlement. One would ask why - after 70 years - the Jordanians have not allowed the Palestians to integrate (most if the RoR individuals don’t live in Gaza)

    Israel often overreacts but you need to remember they face an existential threat from
    Implacable enemies
    Maybe giving them back their property would help rather than tear gassing and shooting at them.
    Israel has offered full financial compensation - the issue is after 70 years the land is no longer abandoned. (And, immediately after the war, Israel offered the right of return - those that did are now Israeli Arabs with full voting and other rights in a democratic society).

    I am no expert on the topic but what little I have seen does not show Israel in a good light. They seem to have stolen almost all of the Palestinian's land , built walls and fences and made their lives a misery. I understand that there were bad acts from the other side as well and they are no angel's , but tear gassing and shooting people behind fences is beyond the pale for me.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Mr. Doethur, that videogame nonsense is ongoing. One idiot politician, a few years ago (after Sandy Hook, I think), proposed banning 'real' guns in videogames.

    Mr. Labour, true, there was a similar dislike of chess in Paris a few centuries ago, and Anna Komnene railed angrily against the youth of Byzantium playing draughts instead of learning grammar and rhetoric.

    It’s particularly silly in the context of America - they don’t play video games in other places, USA, without having the same issue?
    The issue in the USA is related to mental health, lack of opportunity in many places, and endemic drug use, much more than its to do with movies and video games.

    Even the guns issue is at best peripheral, there’s plenty of other countries full of guns where these incidents don’t happen - although the method of the crime does maximise casualties when incidents do happen.
    Those other countries have gun registries and much more extensive (and univeral) background checks.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    The settler issue is very difficult. Often it’s not government sanctioned - the settler movement (on the nutty wing plus, I think, with their own party in the Knesset) is very independent - but the government should be more active in throwing them out when they steal land
    Deliberate inaction can itself be a kind of action.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    David......a really excellent, well written article.....wonderful analysis, and some interesting perspectives too...and objective to a point.

    I really hope you get some proper work out of your interest in politics. You are too good not to.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests/israeli-forces-kill-16-palestinians-in-gaza-border-protests-gaza-medics-idUSKBN1H60AV
    I would note that the vast majority of the injuries were tear gas which, while unpleasant, is transitory. Rubber bullets are more serious, clearly, and to conflate the numbers.

    How would you recommend that the Israeli army (many of whom are teenagers) should deal with people rolling burning tyres at them?

    And the demand for “right of return” is - as they know - something that can only be achieved as part of an overall peace settlement. One would ask why - after 70 years - the Jordanians have not allowed the Palestians to integrate (most if the RoR individuals don’t live in Gaza)

    Israel often overreacts but you need to remember they face an existential threat from
    Implacable enemies
    Maybe giving them back their property would help rather than tear gassing and shooting at them.
    Israel has offered full financial compensation - the issue is after 70 years the land is no longer abandoned. (And, immediately after the war, Israel offered the right of return - those that did are now Israeli Arabs with full voting and other rights in a democratic society).

    I am no expert on the topic but what little I have seen does not show Israel in a good light. They seem to have stolen almost all of the Palestinian's land , built walls and fences and made their lives a misery. I understand that there were bad acts from the other side as well and they are no angel's , but tear gassing and shooting people behind fences is beyond the pale for me.
    If you have 30,000 people intent on tearing down the fence, rolling burning tyres at you, and some time individuals using the crowd as cover to shoot at you how do you stop them?

    Tear gas and - possibly - rubber bullets seem a plausible response (I am not an expert). Using snipers to eliminate specific threats is unacceptable I think (unless there is an obvious danger to life) but that’s the Israeli approach.

    (I watched “Munich” last night which may have coloured my thinking!)
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    IanB2 said:

    A thoughtful lead, although David overlooks the career dimension to politicians' thinking. Whilst we and the media as analyst/spectators look at this principally as politics, many of the actors involved will be thinking principally about ambition.

    David used the phrase "only eight years", yet someone's lifetime ambitions of world-kingship can go from strong to weak in much less time than that (as that ambition's originator has himself amply demonstrated). That the chicken coup was so badly and so obviously mismanaged is surely in large part due to its having had the 'wrong' motivations (insofar as the public/politics are concerned).

    Seeing the prospect of government office slipping by does mean that we cannot rely on everyone involved to think and act rationally. Which may well be why some of them are once again stirring up internal dissent when the likelihood is that this will harm their party's prospects without doing anything to help point it in a more amenable direction.

    Eight years is indeed a long time and much can happen in it. On the other hand, it was 16 years from the SDP split to the end of the Tory government, and 29 years to when the Lib Dems finally entered UK government, as the second party in a coalition. For most who defected to the SDP, their career opportunities became very limited very quickly. 28 MPs defected, only four were re-elected (the SDP won six seats in 1983, including Charles Kennedy's gain, and Roy Jenkins, who'd been elected in a by-election after the SDP launched).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    There’s very little they can do, other than seek to build a mass movement that persuades the members with an inspirational leader.

    Yep. That’s the problem.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    edited March 2018
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Unless Momentum move on from deselecting moderate councillors to deselecting moderate Labour MPs, which is not impossible, there will be no mass defections of Labour MPs to a new centrist, Europhile SDP2 with the LDs.

    Therefore the only way Corbyn is going to be removed given his strong support with Labour Party members is by the voters as a whole giving the Tories an overall majority at the next general election

    I am not convinced that a defeat will see the Corbyn cult accepting the reality of the situation. They will blame everyone and everything else - it will be the fault of the media, Labour moderates, the media and anyone else they can think of.
    If post defeat a majority of members didn't moce on from Corbynism Chuka Umunna etc would almost certainly form a new UK En Marche breakaway party anyway.

    So at the next general election either Corbyn becomes PM or he loses and the Labour Party splits if a more moderate leader does not replace him
    As much as we two are polar sides away from each other in terms of our politics, I have to say H your analysis is always top notch, and I inevitably agree with just about everything you say...as usual today
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Unless Momentum move on from deselecting moderate councillors to deselecting moderate Labour MPs, which is not impossible, there will be no mass defections of Labour MPs to a new centrist, Europhile SDP2 with the LDs.

    Therefore the only way Corbyn is going to be removed given his strong support with Labour Party members is by the voters as a whole giving the Tories an overall majority at the next general election

    I am not convinced that a defeat will see the Corbyn cult accepting the reality of the situation. They will blame everyone and everything else - it will be the fault of the media, Labour moderates, the media and anyone else they can think of.
    If post defeat a majority of members didn't moce on from Corbynism Chuka Umunna etc would almost certainly form a new UK En Marche breakaway party anyway.

    So at the next general election either Corbyn becomes PM or he loses and the Labour Party splits if a more moderate leader does not replace him
    As much as we two are polar sides away from each other in terms of our politics, I have to say H your analysis is always top notch, and I inevitably agree with just about everything you say...as usual today
    Thanks T
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Charles , it has .A great film and book Munich.It was a tragedy the Olympics of 72.However you have no compulsion to defend Israel state actions on every occasion because you are sympathetic to their position.,.This seems to me an over reaction to me .
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Rochdale Pioneers, we are really not as far apart as you might think. I have many Labour friends (a sizeable chunk of whom are in your boat, if not rowing even further away from Corbyn Labour as a result of the current furore). Politics doesn't get in the way of friendships. And to big us up, Tories in my experience are generally very decent people who care. At local level, they do a pretty good job of keeping nice places nice by being protective and nurturing. ...

    Your bigger issue is with how you perceive Tories in national Government. OK, so we get things wrong. We have been slow to be convinced. But hey, we are the party that has gone from Section 28 to allowing gay marriage in a generation. We have moved from being bent out of shape by religious adherents (albeit, CoE) to taking the right course - even at the expense of losing some votes. Would that Labour did the same. We have had two women Prime Ministers whilst Labour is 43 years behind us on even electing a female party leader. 43 years and counting.

    The hardest part of being a Tory in national Government is we ALWAYS come into power after Labour has screwed the economy. It is no coincidence that every Labour Govt. has left office with employment lower than it inherited. If that isn't a damning indication that the party of the working man has a broken business model, I don't know what is. Tory Government is the nation's dentist, having to fill cavities and extract teeth after years of Labour Governments giving out sweeties as if they had no consequence. And that isn't flippant. They are not dishing out the essentials of a basic minimum quality of life, if they lead the poorest to expect that the safety net is higher and softer than is ever sustainable over a longer period of Government than they manage.

    In essence, Tory Governments have to come in and walk around offering a plate of shit sandwiches, because that is all Labour left in the fridge. It would be wonderful to come into office having meaningful choices to make. But we never get that luxury. We have to implement 51/49 decisions where both options are going to hurt somebody. And we get villified by people who take no responsibility whatsoever for the underlying reasons, who think we Tories get a hard-on when we hear "austerity".

    And the assumption is that we are always expected to get the decisions of Government right, always have the answers to remedy Labour's mess. Usually we do. Exhibit A, current employment rates. Exhibit B, Michael Gove in his current role, winning glowing reviews from leftist environmentalists. But not always. And boy, do we get those not always thrown back at us with venom. But hey, that's the price of being a Tory. You get to live off shit sandwiches, while pulling out rotten teeth....

    Spot on.

    Stealing the 'nation's dentist' analogy, if I may?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    HYUFD said:

    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Unless Momentum move on from deselecting moderate councillors to deselecting moderate Labour MPs, which is not impossible, there will be no mass defections of Labour MPs to a new centrist, Europhile SDP2 with the LDs.

    Therefore the only way Corbyn is going to be removed given his strong support with Labour Party members is by the voters as a whole giving the Tories an overall majority at the next general election

    I am not convinced that a defeat will see the Corbyn cult accepting the reality of the situation. They will blame everyone and everything else - it will be the fault of the media, Labour moderates, the media and anyone else they can think of.
    If post defeat a majority of members didn't moce on from Corbynism Chuka Umunna etc would almost certainly form a new UK En Marche breakaway party anyway.

    So at the next general election either Corbyn becomes PM or he loses and the Labour Party splits if a more moderate leader does not replace him
    As much as we two are polar sides away from each other in terms of our politics, I have to say H your analysis is always top notch, and I inevitably agree with just about everything you say...as usual today
    Thanks T
    Agreed , as I have said before .
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Arguably the problem for those in Labour who fundamentally oppose Corbyn and, particularly his politics/policies is that their only long term hope of change might not just be him losing an election, but in fact for him to actually win an election and those policies to fail. And not because that would necessarily save Labour, but because it might just create the condition for a new party to replace it.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    The point is that we are not Italy with huge amounts of small parties scrambling around to make coalitions. We have two broad political blocs..,.the right, the Tories....the left, Labour. Without doubt the centrists of both parties have more in common than the extremes of their own blocs, but as you can see from Rochdale's posts..we are a tribal lot and unlikely to go anywhere.

    At the moment the left fringe of the Labour Party has wrestled control of the Party. As far as I can see, give them a go. The Labour Party was completely burned out after 13 years in Govt, and in five years of opposition offered Ed Miliband and his EdStone, so enough said there.

    After Corbyn...lets see. The members are likely to go for someone with some name recognition who is not tarnished. So Starmer, Thornberry...but I might well be wrong. I was wrong for sure about Corbyn.

    If the next leader is chosen purely on having a purist left ideology then as Hyfud said, the moderates will leave. If the next Tory leader is chosen purely on Brexit, ideological credentials, then there will be the basis for a new political bloc that reflects the political centre.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    tyson said:

    in five years of opposition offered Ed Miliband and his EdStone, so enough said there.


    We must never forget the EdStone. HIghlight of the 2015 campaign.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    edited March 2018
    First of all I am neutral on Corbyn - not his biggest fan (largely because he is a simpleton and his views on Brexit).

    In my opinion, he is not anti-semetic. Yes, he has foolishly associated himself with people who are but that comes down to his lack of foresight. He is very much an anti-racism campaigner and as a a person of ethnic origin, we need more senior politicians to come strongly against racism which is sadly on the rise again.

    Corbyn won the leadership because the rest of the Labour party became clueless. His views resonate with a lot of people especially in an environment where the rich become richer and the rest of us are thrown to the wolves. The Tory posters on here said that Corbyn is a liability etc. and then he came within a whisker of being PM at the last GE. He showed that he is one of the best political campaigners in the country and even though he was up against a an incompetent Tory party and leader, he deserves the chance to take Labour forward.

    So my advice to some of the smug Tory posters on here is that Corbyn, despite the Tory establishment pointing the guns on him made mince meat of a 25% poll deficit last time, so please don't make the same mistake again.

  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    alex. said:

    Arguably the problem for those in Labour who fundamentally oppose Corbyn and, particularly his politics/policies is that their only long term hope of change might not just be him losing an election, but in fact for him to actually win an election and those policies to fail. And not because that would necessarily save Labour, but because it might just create the condition for a new party to replace it.

    The constraints of Govt would make Labour much more pragmatic...and in John McDonnell, as we have seen the last few days, embracing the customs union etc...I think a Corbyn led govt would be much closer to the dealmaking Harold Wilson. You never know higher marginal rates, ending ridiculous pension tax free benefits, property taxes....and some of this cash put into public services may well, prove to be extremely popular.
  • kle4 said:

    tyson said:

    in five years of opposition offered Ed Miliband and his EdStone, so enough said there.


    We must never forget the EdStone. HIghlight of the 2015 campaign.
    ALL HAIL THE EDSTONE. The point where Ed Milliband waved the white flag and gave up.

    A few other bits. Chukka Umunna mentioned a few times. His withdrawal from the campaign is Labour's equivalent disaster to the Tories having Ken Clarke beaten by IDS. As for the economy apparently working at the moment, we'll have to disagree. Its functioning at a basic level yes, but the structural challenges (low unemployment but high numbers of economic inactives, massive housing costs etc) are getting worse and the Tories seem desperate to pretend all is well.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,538
    murali_s said:

    First of all I am neutral on Corbyn - not his biggest fan (largely because he is a simpleton and his views on Brexit).

    In my opinion, he is not anti-semetic. Yes, he has foolishly associated himself with people who are but that comes down to his lack of foresight. He is very much an anti-racism campaigner and as a a person of ethnic origin, we need more senior politicians to come strongly against racism which is sadly on the rise again.

    Corbyn won the leadership because the rest of the Labour party became clueless. His views resonate with a lot of people especially in an environment where the rich become richer and the rest of us are thrown to the wolves. The Tory posters on here said that Corbyn is a liability etc. and then he came within a whisker of being PM at the last GE. He showed that he is one of the best political campaigners in the country and even though he was up against a an incompetent Tory party and leader, he deserves the chance to take Labour forward.

    So my advice to some of the smug Tory posters on here is that Corbyn, despite the Tory establishment pointing the guns on him made mince meat of a 25% poll deficit last time, so please don't make the same mistake again.

    My own view is that he's a passive antisemite. This comes about because he is not an anti-racist: he's only against certain types of racism.

    As we have seen time and time again, he believes certain people and groups are worthy of protection from wrong-doing and evil. Sadly, that blinds him to areas where other groups also are worthy of such protections. This is exactly the self-built trap he's fallen into.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    tyson said:

    The point is that we are not Italy with huge amounts of small parties scrambling around to make coalitions. We have two broad political blocs..,.the right, the Tories....the left, Labour. Without doubt the centrists of both parties have more in common than the extremes of their own blocs, but as you can see from Rochdale's posts..we are a tribal lot and unlikely to go anywhere.

    At the moment the left fringe of the Labour Party has wrestled control of the Party. As far as I can see, give them a go. The Labour Party was completely burned out after 13 years in Govt, and in five years of opposition offered Ed Miliband and his EdStone, so enough said there.

    After Corbyn...lets see. The members are likely to go for someone with some name recognition who is not tarnished. So Starmer, Thornberry...but I might well be wrong. I was wrong for sure about Corbyn.

    If the next leader is chosen purely on having a purist left ideology then as Hyfud said, the moderates will leave. If the next Tory leader is chosen purely on Brexit, ideological credentials, then there will be the basis for a new political bloc that reflects the political centre.

    There have been two occassions when these two blocs were significantly breached in my lifetime - firstly, when Thatcher enthused a portion of the Labour WWC who wanted to buy their own property; and then when Blair made even bigger inroads into the Tory middle classes. Tribal can be broken down - if the politician is capable enough. Corbyn has no ability to break down tribal (except if he carries on as is and splits his own tribe).
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    edited March 2018

    (I watched “Munich” last night which may have coloured my thinking!)

    @Charles

    Munich is for me one of Spielberg's masterpieces. Doesn't it finish against a backdrop of the New York skyline and the Twin Towers? The message of the film is overwhelmingly pacifist....violence dehumanises, and only brings on more violence.

    And so the Israeli response yesterday will only pour fuel on the middle east fire. Israel desperately needs an enlightened peacemaker who can march the country in the other direction.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    In her recent public statement Shawcross says that the antisemitic accusations are just smear attacks on Corbyn. Corbyn has to make it cleat that this is not so and get her suspended from Labour membership to show he has a zero tolerance policy in practice. But Shawcross is big mates with Corbyn. Will he do it?
  • Lord Sugar making McDonnell look a peace-maker is definitely an achievement...
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    tyson said:

    The point is that we are not Italy with huge amounts of small parties scrambling around to make coalitions. We have two broad political blocs..,.the right, the Tories....the left, Labour. Without doubt the centrists of both parties have more in common than the extremes of their own blocs, but as you can see from Rochdale's posts..we are a tribal lot and unlikely to go anywhere.

    At the moment the left fringe of the Labour Party has wrestled control of the Party. As far as I can see, give them a go. The Labour Party was completely burned out after 13 years in Govt, and in five years of opposition offered Ed Miliband and his EdStone, so enough said there.

    After Corbyn...lets see. The members are likely to go for someone with some name recognition who is not tarnished. So Starmer, Thornberry...but I might well be wrong. I was wrong for sure about Corbyn.

    If the next leader is chosen purely on having a purist left ideology then as Hyfud said, the moderates will leave. If the next Tory leader is chosen purely on Brexit, ideological credentials, then there will be the basis for a new political bloc that reflects the political centre.

    There have been two occassions when these two blocs were significantly breached in my lifetime - firstly, when Thatcher enthused a portion of the Labour WWC who wanted to buy their own property; and then when Blair made even bigger inroads into the Tory middle classes. Tribal can be broken down - if the politician is capable enough. Corbyn has no ability to break down tribal (except if he carries on as is and splits his own tribe).
    Interesting perspective.....Blair's strategy was much more manufactured...he parked his tanks on the Tory turf. Miliband tried, but he was no Rommel.

    Thatcher genuinely led an ideological shift in popular opinion....and for that alone deserves great credit. She seriously breached the WWC....
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Lord Sugar posted this as what happens when you overstay in a Lidl carpark.

    https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/978633306769186816
  • In her recent public statement Shawcross says that the antisemitic accusations are just smear attacks on Corbyn. Corbyn has to make it cleat that this is not so and get her suspended from Labour membership to show he has a zero tolerance policy in practice. But Shawcross is big mates with Corbyn. Will he do it?

    She has deleted that statement and this morning Tom Watson has joined the demand for her to step down from the NEC.

    However, stepping down is not the solution. She should be expelled from labour together with anyone else associated with anti semetic views. The problem is that Corbyn will not go that far, hiding behind rules and process.

    Some on here think that conservatives like me are enjoying this. I can tell everyone that the present crisis in labour is causing me alarm and great concern. I repudiate Corbyn, momemtum and the hangers on, racism and anti semetic views, but do not reject aspects of socialism. I have voted labour before and with a sensible offer could vote for them again in certain circumstances.

    However I will not at anytime endorse or accept a hard left anti west, anti nato, anti business party led by Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, et al
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Yorkcity said:

    Charles , it has .A great film and book Munich.It was a tragedy the Olympics of 72.However you have no compulsion to defend Israel state actions on every occasion because you are sympathetic to their position.,.This seems to me an over reaction to me .

    I certainly don’t defend the Israeli actions. I understand why they act in the way they do, but I think it hurts their cause more than it helps.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    edited March 2018
    tyson said:


    @Charles

    Munich is for me one of Spielberg's masterpieces. Doesn't it finish against a backdrop of the New York skyline and the Twin Towers? The message of the film is overwhelmingly pacifist....violence dehumanises, and only brings on more violence.

    And so the Israeli response yesterday will only pour fuel on the middle east fire. Israel desperately needs an enlightened peacemaker who can march the country in the other direction.

    Hi Tyson

    Can I highly recommend Padraig O'Malley's The Two State Delusion?

    His ultimate conclusion (although it could be more clearly expressed) is that there is no prospect of peace because both sides want victory, not peace.

    I have been to Israel, Golan and the West Bank. Although I did meet people who genuinely did want both sides to stop fighting and were making every effort to bring the two sides together as best they could, I have to say they came across as a very small minority.

    And the only Arab I met there who wanted peace was a Christian (one who had no love for Israelis).
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    murali_s said:

    First of all I am neutral on Corbyn - not his biggest fan (largely because he is a simpleton and his views on Brexit).

    In my opinion, he is not anti-semetic. Yes, he has foolishly associated himself with people who are but that comes down to his lack of foresight. He is very much an anti-racism campaigner and as a a person of ethnic origin, we need more senior politicians to come strongly against racism which is sadly on the rise again.

    Corbyn won the leadership because the rest of the Labour party became clueless. His views resonate with a lot of people especially in an environment where the rich become richer and the rest of us are thrown to the wolves. The Tory posters on here said that Corbyn is a liability etc. and then he came within a whisker of being PM at the last GE. He showed that he is one of the best political campaigners in the country and even though he was up against a an incompetent Tory party and leader, he deserves the chance to take Labour forward.

    So my advice to some of the smug Tory posters on here is that Corbyn, despite the Tory establishment pointing the guns on him made mince meat of a 25% poll deficit last time, so please don't make the same mistake again.

    I certainly wouldn't expect to make the same mistake again. I only wonder if next time the circumstances will be different - like all elections - in the sense i wouldn't quite expect the conservatives to run such a dire campaign.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited March 2018
    tyson said:




    @Charles

    Munich is for me one of Spielberg's masterpieces. Doesn't it finish against a backdrop of the New York skyline and the Twin Towers? The message of the film is overwhelmingly pacifist....violence dehumanises, and only brings on more violence.

    And so the Israeli response yesterday will only pour fuel on the middle east fire. Israel desperately needs an enlightened peacemaker who can march the country in the other direction.

    I’d agree but you also need people willing to deal on the other side. Oslo is their Sunnyndale. We only needed 25 years more death and violence to get to Good Friday.

    But I don’t think they will be done in 2019.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited March 2018

    In her recent public statement Shawcross says that the antisemitic accusations are just smear attacks on Corbyn. Corbyn has to make it cleat that this is not so and get her suspended from Labour membership to show he has a zero tolerance policy in practice. But Shawcross is big mates with Corbyn. Will he do it?

    She has deleted that statement and this morning Tom Watson has joined the demand for her to step down from the NEC.

    However, stepping down is not the solution. She should be expelled from labour together with anyone else associated with anti semetic views. The problem is that Corbyn will not go that far, hiding behind rules and process.

    Some on here think that conservatives like me are enjoying this. I can tell everyone that the present crisis in labour is causing me alarm and great concern. I repudiate Corbyn, momemtum and the hangers on, racism and anti semetic views, but do not reject aspects of socialism. I have voted labour before and with a sensible offer could vote for them again in certain circumstances.

    However I will not at anytime endorse or accept a hard left anti west, anti nato, anti business party led by Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, et al
    Well said. :+1:

    There’s several million who voted Labour in 1997 or 2001 who are now very firmly in the Conservative camp and shocked at what Labour has become in the last few years.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Lord Sugar posted this as what happens when you overstay in a Lidl carpark.

    ttps://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/978633306769186816

    It’s actually what happens when you drive around in an uninsured, and uninsurable, written off car.

    https://metro.co.uk/2018/03/23/man-suing-police-watching-video-250000-ferarri-crushed-7410531/
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Others probably know already but Lord Sugar has taken down his tweet featuring the picture of Corbyn sitting alongside Hitler in the back of a car, with a caption about thinking it was a car rally.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    edited March 2018
    tyson said:

    alex. said:

    Arguably the problem for those in Labour who fundamentally oppose Corbyn and, particularly his politics/policies is that their only long term hope of change might not just be him losing an election, but in fact for him to actually win an election and those policies to fail. And not because that would necessarily save Labour, but because it might just create the condition for a new party to replace it.

    The constraints of Govt would make Labour much more pragmatic...and in John McDonnell, as we have seen the last few days, embracing the customs union etc...I think a Corbyn led govt would be much closer to the dealmaking Harold Wilson. You never know higher marginal rates, ending ridiculous pension tax free benefits, property taxes....and some of this cash put into public services may well, prove to be extremely popular.
    This is the weird thing about the last Labour manifesto. It wasn't particularly progressive; The main spending commitment (excluding the vague / unfunded ones, which aren't real) was dumping more money on people in their 60s, who are generally doing pretty well. It was just really, really old-fashioned.

    So we've ended up with both the two main parties representing 1970s nostalgia. But there's an alternative in the form of the LibDems that's hardly getting any support, or UKIP who want to turn the clock back further and they're becalmed as well, so I suppose that's what the voters want.
  • Footballing tip of the day,

    Mamadou Sakho FGS at 70/1 with Paddy Power.

    (Kick off in 20 mins)

    https://www.paddypower.com/football/english-premier-league/c-palace-v-liverpool-28622802
  • Can I make a rare pro-Tory comment? Earlier posts defending the Tory party made one point I want to support. You did evolve from Section 28 to Gay Marriage in a single generation and have advanced the equality agenda so significantly that I have scratch my head sometimes at how society has suddenly become tolerant.

    I am a bisexual man who only felt comfortable saying that in public last year after a couple of decades not talking about that side of me. It's a slightly academic outing in that I'm 14 years into a heterosexual marriage but that's not what sexuality is - it's who and what you are attracted to, not what you choose to sleep with.

    Anyway, credit where it's due.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    My thanks to David Herdson as I have just realised it's Saturday.
    Any Labour splitters know from the experience of the old SDP traitors in the 80s,the only thing a new "centrist" party would achieve under FPTP is a certain Tory victory.Some members of the Labour right, still under the influence of "The Master" TB himself,may yet decide to split because they would prefer a Tory government to a Labour one led by Mr Corbyn.
    The sensible play for them is to get behind a changed electoral system based on some form of PR and then the split makes more electoral sense but even then the Labour "brand" has shown itself highly resilient.The point about short money is a good one too.Without the "brand",no amount of Bernie Ecclestones would be good enough to fill the hole.

    The real victors of the Eighties battle in Labour were not the SDP, but rather those that stayed. After all the troubles of the early Eighties, 10 years later the Centrists were back in control.

    @Rochdale is right, even a Labour government under Corbyn and McDonnell is preferable to a continuing Tory one. I am not a fan of Nationalisation of utilities, or of deficit spending, but other aspects of a Jezza government are more appealing and a workers Brexit rather than a Bosses Brexit in particular.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Can I make a rare pro-Tory comment? Earlier posts defending the Tory party made one point I want to support. You did evolve from Section 28 to Gay Marriage in a single generation and have advanced the equality agenda so significantly that I have scratch my head sometimes at how society has suddenly become tolerant.

    I am a bisexual man who only felt comfortable saying that in public last year after a couple of decades not talking about that side of me. It's a slightly academic outing in that I'm 14 years into a heterosexual marriage but that's not what sexuality is - it's who and what you are attracted to, not what you choose to sleep with.

    Anyway, credit where it's due.

    Fair play Sir, your comments on this thread are a credit to you. Especially this last one. :+1:
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eagles, cheers, (with boost it's available at 81 on Ladbrokes, 67 without).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,538
    Sandpit said:

    Lord Sugar posted this as what happens when you overstay in a Lidl carpark.

    ttps://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/978633306769186816

    It’s actually what happens when you drive around in an uninsured, and uninsurable, written off car.

    https://metro.co.uk/2018/03/23/man-suing-police-watching-video-250000-ferarri-crushed-7410531/
    It'll be interesting to see what happens int eh upcoming court case.

    An anecdote about damaged cars: many moons ago I used to frequently go around scrapyards with my dad, looking for various esoteric things. One yard (I think it was somewhere Ripley way on) had a rather nice-looking car that was going to be scrapped. From the outside it looked perfect, but when I opened the door it stank. It had gone off a road into a canal and had been submerged for a day; apparently not a single part of it was worth reusing, even from the engine.

    At first viewing I wondered if something similar had happened to the car in that tweet.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Others probably know already but Lord Sugar has taken down his tweet featuring the picture of Corbyn sitting alongside Hitler in the back of a car, with a caption about thinking it was a car rally.

    https://twitter.com/Lord_Sugar/status/979996946634104832
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,538
    Foxy said:

    My thanks to David Herdson as I have just realised it's Saturday.
    Any Labour splitters know from the experience of the old SDP traitors in the 80s,the only thing a new "centrist" party would achieve under FPTP is a certain Tory victory.Some members of the Labour right, still under the influence of "The Master" TB himself,may yet decide to split because they would prefer a Tory government to a Labour one led by Mr Corbyn.
    The sensible play for them is to get behind a changed electoral system based on some form of PR and then the split makes more electoral sense but even then the Labour "brand" has shown itself highly resilient.The point about short money is a good one too.Without the "brand",no amount of Bernie Ecclestones would be good enough to fill the hole.

    The real victors of the Eighties battle in Labour were not the SDP, but rather those that stayed. After all the troubles of the early Eighties, 10 years later the Centrists were back in control.

    @Rochdale is right, even a Labour government under Corbyn and McDonnell is preferable to a continuing Tory one. I am not a fan of Nationalisation of utilities, or of deficit spending, but other aspects of a Jezza government are more appealing and a workers Brexit rather than a Bosses Brexit in particular.
    What would Labour have to do, or the Conservatives, for you to change your mind?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,883
    Sandpit said:

    Others probably know already but Lord Sugar has taken down his tweet featuring the picture of Corbyn sitting alongside Hitler in the back of a car, with a caption about thinking it was a car rally.

    https://twitter.com/Lord_Sugar/status/979996946634104832
    Illuminating bit of arslikahn from AS. He obviously thinks McD is going to be CoE one day.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Sandpit said:

    Can I make a rare pro-Tory comment? Earlier posts defending the Tory party made one point I want to support. You did evolve from Section 28 to Gay Marriage in a single generation and have advanced the equality agenda so significantly that I have scratch my head sometimes at how society has suddenly become tolerant.

    I am a bisexual man who only felt comfortable saying that in public last year after a couple of decades not talking about that side of me. It's a slightly academic outing in that I'm 14 years into a heterosexual marriage but that's not what sexuality is - it's who and what you are attracted to, not what you choose to sleep with.

    Anyway, credit where it's due.

    Fair play Sir, your comments on this thread are a credit to you. Especially this last one. :+1:
    +1

    I am not a Tory although I am economically right of centre. For me the one great achievement of Cameron and one that he should always be praised for was Marriage equality. It was not just the basic function of Gays being able to marry, it was the hugely important signal that sent to the country about how our State viewed the LGBT community and individuals. It was a great, rare example of leading rather than following by a politician.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Can I make a rare pro-Tory comment? Earlier posts defending the Tory party made one point I want to support. You did evolve from Section 28 to Gay Marriage in a single generation and have advanced the equality agenda so significantly that I have scratch my head sometimes at how society has suddenly become tolerant.

    I am a bisexual man who only felt comfortable saying that in public last year after a couple of decades not talking about that side of me. It's a slightly academic outing in that I'm 14 years into a heterosexual marriage but that's not what sexuality is - it's who and what you are attracted to, not what you choose to sleep with.

    Anyway, credit where it's due.

    Fair enough. But it is also worth remembering that the people on the left who opposed Clause 28 at the time got pretty much the same treatment currently being meted out to Corbyn and his supporters. I can also remember being told at the time that the left were irresponsible and unelectable for extreme policies such as leaving the European Union.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    In her recent public statement Shawcross says that the antisemitic accusations are just smear attacks on Corbyn. Corbyn has to make it cleat that this is not so and get her suspended from Labour membership to show he has a zero tolerance policy in practice. But Shawcross is big mates with Corbyn. Will he do it?

    She has deleted that statement and this morning Tom Watson has joined the demand for her to step down from the NEC.

    However, stepping down is not the solution. She should be expelled from labour together with anyone else associated with anti semetic views. The problem is that Corbyn will not go that far, hiding behind rules and process.

    Some on here think that conservatives like me are enjoying this. I can tell everyone that the present crisis in labour is causing me alarm and great concern. I repudiate Corbyn, momemtum and the hangers on, racism and anti semetic views, but do not reject aspects of socialism. I have voted labour before and with a sensible offer could vote for them again in certain circumstances.

    However I will not at anytime endorse or accept a hard left anti west, anti nato, anti business party led by Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, et al
    I've voted Conservative before and with a sensible offer could vote for them again in certain circumstances. However I will not endorse or accept a hard right anti Europe, pro-Putin, anti business party led by May, Johnson and Gove et al.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401

    Can I make a rare pro-Tory comment? Earlier posts defending the Tory party made one point I want to support. You did evolve from Section 28 to Gay Marriage in a single generation and have advanced the equality agenda so significantly that I have scratch my head sometimes at how society has suddenly become tolerant.

    I am a bisexual man who only felt comfortable saying that in public last year after a couple of decades not talking about that side of me. It's a slightly academic outing in that I'm 14 years into a heterosexual marriage but that's not what sexuality is - it's who and what you are attracted to, not what you choose to sleep with.

    Anyway, credit where it's due.

    Fair enough. But it is also worth remembering that the people on the left who opposed Clause 28 at the time got pretty much the same treatment currently being meted out to Corbyn and his supporters. I can also remember being told at the time that the left were irresponsible and unelectable for extreme policies such as leaving the European Union.
    It wasn't the European Union at the time. That's the point that many Leavers would make: they were fairly content with the EEC.
  • In her recent public statement Shawcross says that the antisemitic accusations are just smear attacks on Corbyn. Corbyn has to make it cleat that this is not so and get her suspended from Labour membership to show he has a zero tolerance policy in practice. But Shawcross is big mates with Corbyn. Will he do it?

    She has deleted that statement and this morning Tom Watson has joined the demand for her to step down from the NEC.

    However, stepping down is not the solution. She should be expelled from labour together with anyone else associated with anti semetic views. The problem is that Corbyn will not go that far, hiding behind rules and process.

    Some on here think that conservatives like me are enjoying this. I can tell everyone that the present crisis in labour is causing me alarm and great concern. I repudiate Corbyn, momemtum and the hangers on, racism and anti semetic views, but do not reject aspects of socialism. I have voted labour before and with a sensible offer could vote for them again in certain circumstances.

    However I will not at anytime endorse or accept a hard left anti west, anti nato, anti business party led by Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, et al
    I've voted Conservative before and with a sensible offer could vote for them again in certain circumstances. However I will not endorse or accept a hard right anti Europe, pro-Putin, anti business party led by May, Johnson and Gove et al.
    I question your pro Putin anti business comments but no doubt you are a remainer and can understand why you feel that way. The point is that within the next 6 months or so the EU position should be clearer and hopefully TM will negotiate a fair deal.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,676
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests/israeli-forces-kill-16-palestinians-in-gaza-border-protests-gaza-medics-idUSKBN1H60AV
    I would note that the vast majority of the injuries were tear gas which, while unpleasant, is transitory. Rubber bullets are more serious, clearly, and to conflate the numbers.

    How would you recommend that the Israeli army (many of whom are teenagers) should deal with people rolling burning tyres at them?

    And the demand for “right of return” is - as they know - something that can only be achieved as part of an overall peace settlement. One would ask why - after 70 years - the Jordanians have not allowed the Palestians to integrate (most if the RoR individuals don’t live in Gaza)

    Israel often overreacts but you need to remember they face an existential threat from
    Implacable enemies
    Maybe giving them back their property would help rather than tear gassing and shooting at them.
    Israel has offered full financial compensation - the issue is after 70 years the land is no longer abandoned. (And, immediately after the war, Israel offered the right of return - those that did are now Israeli Arabs with full voting and other rights in a democratic society).

    If you have 30,000 people intent on tearing down the fence, rolling burning tyres at you, and some time individuals using the crowd as cover to shoot at you how do you stop them?

    Tear gas and - possibly - rubber bullets seem a plausible response (I am not an expert). Using snipers to eliminate specific threats is unacceptable I think (unless there is an obvious danger to life) but that’s the Israeli approach.

    (I watched “Munich” last night which may have coloured my thinking!)
    No simple answer for sure , but the Israelis do not help themselves and their previous heavy handed positions and taking over other people's land etc for me makes them the aggressor and totally in the wrong.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Oborne thinks Corbyn will soon be gone and Labour will split:


    "This is why I’m convinced that this week marks a tipping point for Corbyn’s career as Labour leader. We live in a country whose forebears made unimaginable sacrifices to defeat Nazism in World War II. Decent people can no longer support him."

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5563767/PETER-OBORNE-Labour-leader-Jeremy-Corbyn-soon-gone.html#ixzz5BKEmHEyN
  • Sandpit said:

    Can I make a rare pro-Tory comment? Earlier posts defending the Tory party made one point I want to support. You did evolve from Section 28 to Gay Marriage in a single generation and have advanced the equality agenda so significantly that I have scratch my head sometimes at how society has suddenly become tolerant.

    I am a bisexual man who only felt comfortable saying that in public last year after a couple of decades not talking about that side of me. It's a slightly academic outing in that I'm 14 years into a heterosexual marriage but that's not what sexuality is - it's who and what you are attracted to, not what you choose to sleep with.

    Anyway, credit where it's due.

    Fair play Sir, your comments on this thread are a credit to you. Especially this last one. :+1:
    +1

    I am not a Tory although I am economically right of centre. For me the one great achievement of Cameron and one that he should always be praised for was Marriage equality. It was not just the basic function of Gays being able to marry, it was the hugely important signal that sent to the country about how our State viewed the LGBT community and individuals. It was a great, rare example of leading rather than following by a politician.
    My eldest son is 17. He is gay and came out last year. That society has evolved so that being yourself is something you can do fairly freely is a huge step on from where we have been.

    And you are absolutely right. Cameron acted in what he saw as society's best interest rather than what his own activists thought.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    edited March 2018
    .
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Can I make a rare pro-Tory comment? Earlier posts defending the Tory party made one point I want to support. You did evolve from Section 28 to Gay Marriage in a single generation and have advanced the equality agenda so significantly that I have scratch my head sometimes at how society has suddenly become tolerant.

    I am a bisexual man who only felt comfortable saying that in public last year after a couple of decades not talking about that side of me. It's a slightly academic outing in that I'm 14 years into a heterosexual marriage but that's not what sexuality is - it's who and what you are attracted to, not what you choose to sleep with.

    Anyway, credit where it's due.

    Fair enough. But it is also worth remembering that the people on the left who opposed Clause 28 at the time got pretty much the same treatment currently being meted out to Corbyn and his supporters. I can also remember being told at the time that the left were irresponsible and unelectable for extreme policies such as leaving the European Union.
    Yes very true , Cameron moved to his credit.However that was only after the fight had been won in most people's eyes, granted not in the conservative party.Nevertheless as nearly always as with civil partnership it needs people on the left to challenge the current orthodoxy.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    In her recent public statement Shawcross says that the antisemitic accusations are just smear attacks on Corbyn. Corbyn has to make it cleat that this is not so and get her suspended from Labour membership to show he has a zero tolerance policy in practice. But Shawcross is big mates with Corbyn. Will he do it?

    She has deleted that statement and this morning Tom Watson has joined the demand for her to step down from the NEC.

    However, stepping down is not the solution. She should be expelled from labour together with anyone else associated with anti semetic views. The problem is that Corbyn will not go that far, hiding behind rules and process.

    Some on here think that conservatives like me are enjoying this. I can tell everyone that the present crisis in labour is causing me alarm and great concern. I repudiate Corbyn, momemtum and the hangers on, racism and anti semetic views, but do not reject aspects of socialism. I have voted labour before and with a sensible offer could vote for them again in certain circumstances.

    However I will not at anytime endorse or accept a hard left anti west, anti nato, anti business party led by Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, et al
    I've voted Conservative before and with a sensible offer could vote for them again in certain circumstances. However I will not endorse or accept a hard right anti Europe, pro-Putin, anti business party led by May, Johnson and Gove et al.
    Well given they are not anti-Europe, pro Putin or anti-business you are obviously just looking for excuses.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Hasn’t he generally been quite sympathetic to Corbyn ?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Can I make a rare pro-Tory comment? Earlier posts defending the Tory party made one point I want to support. You did evolve from Section 28 to Gay Marriage in a single generation and have advanced the equality agenda so significantly that I have scratch my head sometimes at how society has suddenly become tolerant.
    ...

    Anyway, credit where it's due.

    While we are praising tolerant Conservatism, it was the much-maligned Iain Duncan Smith who got shot of the Monday Club.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    In her recent public statement Shawcross says that the antisemitic accusations are just smear attacks on Corbyn. Corbyn has to make it cleat that this is not so and get her suspended from Labour membership to show he has a zero tolerance policy in practice. But Shawcross is big mates with Corbyn. Will he do it?

    She has deleted that statement and this morning Tom Watson has joined the demand for her to step down from the NEC.

    However, stepping down is not the solution. She should be expelled from labour together with anyone else associated with anti semetic views. The problem is that Corbyn will not go that far, hiding behind rules and process.

    Some on here think that conservatives like me are enjoying this. I can tell everyone that the present crisis in labour is causing me alarm and great concern. I repudiate Corbyn, momemtum and the hangers on, racism and anti semetic views, but do not reject aspects of socialism. I have voted labour before and with a sensible offer could vote for them again in certain circumstances.

    However I will not at anytime endorse or accept a hard left anti west, anti nato, anti business party led by Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, et al
    I've voted Conservative before and with a sensible offer could vote for them again in certain circumstances. However I will not endorse or accept a hard right anti Europe, pro-Putin, anti business party led by May, Johnson and Gove et al.
    May voted for Remain and seems to be delivering a business friendly departure.

    Recent actions demonstrate the government is not pro-Putin

    Johnson will not be PM, and it is very unlikely that Gove will be either.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests/israeli-forces-kill-16-palestinians-in-gaza-border-protests-gaza-medics-idUSKBN1H60AV
    I would note that the vast majority of the injuries were tear gas which, while unpleasant, is transitory. Rubber bullets are more serious, clearly, and to conflate the numbers.

    How would you recommend that the Israeli army (many of whom are teenagers) should deal with people rolling burning tyres at them?

    And the demand for “right of return” is - as they know - something that can only be achieved as part of an overall peace settlement. One would ask why - after 70 years - the Jordanians have not allowed the Palestians to integrate (most if the RoR individuals don’t live in Gaza)

    Israel often overreacts but you need to remember they face an existential threat from
    Implacable enemies
    Maybe giving them back their property would help rather than tear gassing and shooting at them.
    Israel has offered full financial compensation - the issue is after 70 years the land is no longer abandoned. (And, immediately after the war, Israel offered the right of return - those that did are now Israeli Arabs with full voting and other rights in a democratic society).

    If you have 30,000 people intent on tearing down the fence, rolling burning tyres at you, and some time individuals using the crowd as cover to shoot at you how do you stop them?

    Tear gas and - possibly - rubber bullets seem a plausible response (I am not an expert). Using snipers to eliminate specific threats is unacceptable I think (unless there is an obvious danger to life) but that’s the Israeli approach.

    (I watched “Munich” last night which may have coloured my thinking!)
    No simple answer for sure , but the Israelis do not help themselves and their previous heavy handed positions and taking over other people's land etc for me makes them the aggressor and totally in the wrong.
    I'd agree with the sentiment, but not the conclusion that they are "totally" in the wrong - although they are absolutely guilty in part.
  • malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests/israeli-forces-kill-16-palestinians-in-gaza-border-protests-gaza-medics-idUSKBN1H60AV

    Israel often overreacts but you need to remember they face an existential threat from
    Implacable enemies
    Maybe giving them back their property would help rather than tear gassing and shooting at them.
    Israel has offered full financial compensation - the issue is after 70 years the land is no longer abandoned. (And, immediately after the war, Israel offered the right of return - those that did are now Israeli Arabs with full voting and other rights in a democratic society).

    If you have 30,000 people intent on tearing down the fence, rolling burning tyres at you, and some time individuals using the crowd as cover to shoot at you how do you stop them?

    Tear gas and - possibly - rubber bullets seem a plausible response (I am not an expert). Using snipers to eliminate specific threats is unacceptable I think (unless there is an obvious danger to life) but that’s the Israeli approach.

    (I watched “Munich” last night which may have coloured my thinking!)
    No simple answer for sure , but the Israelis do not help themselves and their previous heavy handed positions and taking over other people's land etc for me makes them the aggressor and totally in the wrong.
    Morning Malc - I see faults in both sides and it is very complicated and difficult to see a solution. As I commented a few days ago my wife and I were on an International coach with a lovely elderly Jewish guide who took us through the road blocks to the walls at Jericho the day after the peace agreement with Arafat and our guide and the Palestinian Police Officer embraced whole heartedly while we all applauded and some cried.

    People want to live in peace, the politics gets in the way, sadly
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,538
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited March 2018

    Sandpit said:

    Lord Sugar posted this as what happens when you overstay in a Lidl carpark.

    ttps://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/978633306769186816

    It’s actually what happens when you drive around in an uninsured, and uninsurable, written off car.

    https://metro.co.uk/2018/03/23/man-suing-police-watching-video-250000-ferarri-crushed-7410531/
    It'll be interesting to see what happens int eh upcoming court case.

    An anecdote about damaged cars: many moons ago I used to frequently go around scrapyards with my dad, looking for various esoteric things. One yard (I think it was somewhere Ripley way on) had a rather nice-looking car that was going to be scrapped. From the outside it looked perfect, but when I opened the door it stank. It had gone off a road into a canal and had been submerged for a day; apparently not a single part of it was worth reusing, even from the engine.

    At first viewing I wondered if something similar had happened to the car in that tweet.
    Given the car was a Cat B writeoff, an insurance company somewhere had paid out its entire value and had said it should be stripped of parts and scrapped. No other insurance company will touch a car that’s a Cat B.

    The court case should be straightforward, in that the police do have the right by law to confiscate and crush unroadworthy and uninsured cars being used on the road. That this particular unroadworthy and uninsured car looked nice on the outside makes no difference.

    The guy who lost the car says he spent a fortune fixing it, more than the car would actually be worth, and offered a pile of ‘receipts’ to the police. Given that he was well known to the police for a bunch of other matters, they're clearly making an example of him.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4544316/Millionaire-parked-Ferrari-CRUSHED.html
  • Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    I think you have to wait for a judgment by the PB Committee on Antisemitic Corbynite Activity as to whether even referring to the killings in Gaza is in fact antisemitic. You should be ok as long as you only repeat verbatim IDF statements and anything Mark Regev says on the subject.
    ThUD, ThUD,
    Still table-slamming his head.
    ThUD, ThUD,
    The slurs he's said.

    Is the Jock outta his head?
    I think so.
    Is the Jock now brain-dead?
    I think so!


    Apologies to 'The Presidents of the United States of America'.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    notme said:

    Hasn’t he generally been quite sympathetic to Corbyn ?
    so he says in the article. seems this week has changed his mind.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    notme said:

    Hasn’t he generally been quite sympathetic to Corbyn ?
    From the man who predicted Ming Campbell's leadership would be 'lethal' to the Tories.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Good afternoon, everyone. Just skimmed the article (thank you, @david_herdson ) and looking forward to reading the comments, but it's a question close to my heart.

    I think the situation has gone past retrieval and the only thing to do is not to be associated with it now.

    If I were a member, I'd leave the party, not join another, and go back to the party if it ever changed enough in what I consider the necessary direction.

    But bearing in mind that it's an MP's job in question, I can't be certain that in their shoes I'd be brave enough to do what seems to me the best thing now.
  • Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    notme said:

    Hasn’t he generally been quite sympathetic to Corbyn ?
    From the man who predicted Ming Campbell's leadership would be 'lethal' to the Tories.
    Well, be fair, quite a number probably died laughing at his PMQ gaffe about acting headteachers.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    Indeed. And many of them are the same posters who called for hard right holocaust denier Ron Crosby to be reinstated to this site, a pretty gruesome spectacle when I was a mere lurker.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    edited March 2018



    https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/978633306769186816


    https://metro.co.uk/2018/03/23/man-suing-police-watching-video-250000-ferarri-crushed-7410531/

    ______

    It'll be interesting to see what happens int eh upcoming court case.

    An anecdote about damaged cars: many moons ago I used to frequently go around scrapyards with my dad, looking for various esoteric things. One yard (I think it was somewhere Ripley way on) had a rather nice-looking car that was going to be scrapped. From the outside it looked perfect, but when I opened the door it stank. It had gone off a road into a canal and had been submerged for a day; apparently not a single part of it was worth reusing, even from the engine.

    At first viewing I wondered if something similar had happened to the car in that tweet.

    "In a statement West Midlands Police said the video is in relation to a trial which is due to start next month.

    They said: “A group of men and a woman are accused of running a car registration scam in which the rights to high-value number plates were stolen and offered for sale – some for more than £100,000.

    “Khan [the claimed owner of the car] his brother Aamir Khan, 25, and 39-year-old Ayan Ahmed, plus associate Zubair Ahmad, 33, have been charged with conspiracy to commit fraud."

    In addition, Zahid and Aamir Khan, face charges of concealing and converting criminal property relating to stolen cars running on false plates.

    “And Zahid Khan also stands accused of four counts of fraud by false representation after it’s alleged he failed to declare details on car insurance documents.”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5848430/ferrari-458-spider-crushed-by-police-rogue-landlord-video/amp/
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited March 2018

    notme said:

    Hasn’t he generally been quite sympathetic to Corbyn ?
    From the man who predicted Ming Campbell's leadership would be 'lethal' to the Tories.
    LOL!
    Anazina said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    Indeed. And many of them are the same posters who called for hard right holocaust denier Ron Crosby to be reinstated to this site, a pretty gruesome spectacle when I was a mere lurker.
    Oh yeah, I remember the Rod Crosby controversy. Thanks for reminding me.
This discussion has been closed.