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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Playing the long game: what do Labour’s moderates do?

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Anazina said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    Indeed. And many of them are the same posters who called for hard right holocaust denier Ron Crosby to be reinstated to this site, a pretty gruesome spectacle when I was a mere lurker.
    Rod is an interesting and instructive case. He is an undoubtedly intelligent chap, with an interesting view on many topics, and IMV a good tipster. In those ways he was a boon to the site.

    Except occasionally he expressed views which are, to many (including myself) very unpalatable. For most of the time those views remained hidden, and I reckon this is the case for many such views: they are held more widely than most of us suspect, amongst the thick and the intelligent, the poor or the rich.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    FF43 said:

    "In a statement West Midlands Police said the video is in relation to a trial which is due to start next month.

    They said: “A group of men and a woman are accused of running a car registration scam in which the rights to high-value number plates were stolen and offered for sale – some for more than £100,000.

    “Khan [the claimed owner of the car] his brother Aamir Khan, 25, and 39-year-old Ayan Ahmed, plus associate Zubair Ahmad, 33, have been charged with conspiracy to commit fraud."

    In addition, Zahid and Aamir Khan, face charges of concealing and converting criminal property relating to stolen cars running on false plates.

    “And Zahid Khan also stands accused of four counts of fraud by false representation after it’s alleged he failed to declare details on car insurance documents.”

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5848430/ferrari-458-spider-crushed-by-police-rogue-landlord-video/amp/

    Yes, that was the trial I was referring to.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Yorkcity said:

    Can I make a rare pro-Tory comment? Earlier posts defending the Tory party made one point I want to support. You did evolve from Section 28 to Gay Marriage in a single generation and have advanced the equality agenda so significantly that I have scratch my head sometimes at how society has suddenly become tolerant.

    I am a bisexual man who only felt comfortable saying that in public last year after a couple of decades not talking about that side of me. It's a slightly academic outing in that I'm 14 years into a heterosexual marriage but that's not what sexuality is - it's who and what you are attracted to, not what you choose to sleep with.

    Anyway, credit where it's due.

    Fair enough. But it is also worth remembering that the people on the left who opposed Clause 28 at the time got pretty much the same treatment currently being meted out to Corbyn and his supporters. I can also remember being told at the time that the left were irresponsible and unelectable for extreme policies such as leaving the European Union.
    Yes very true , Cameron moved to his credit.However that was only after the fight had been won in most people's eyes, granted not in the conservative party.Nevertheless as nearly always as with civil partnership it needs people on the left to challenge the current orthodoxy.
    The party probably lost more members as a result of that than any other single issue of recent times.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    There is no way that people would have vote to leave if free movement of labour was not an issue. Not acknowledging that in any Brexit negotiations would have been kind of missing the point.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,951

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    Oh hello, the pub bore has turned up.

  • Except it is all over Sky news just adding to the chaos that is labour just now
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    Oh hello, the pub bore has turned up.

    66% of the public think Britain is more divided than a year ago. Brexit is poisoning the nation.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited March 2018
    I had no idea Lynton Crosby was not just a Remainer, but a #FBPE guy as well:

    https://twitter.com/lyntonspins/status/979798301447991298

    Still not a fan of him, mind.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    A Brexit that left free movement in place would have been no Brexit at all for most Leave voters, until we have a decade or so of falling immigration, EEA and the single market will not be an option
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
  • Rebourne_FluffyRebourne_Fluffy Posts: 225
    edited March 2018
    It seems that the 'accidentally antisemites' are actually fully-fledged. Sad!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    It was Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 which was the root cause of the rise in anti immigration sentiment, Farage and co just exploited that
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    It was Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 which was the root cause of the rise in anti immigration sentiment, Farage and co just exploited that
    As it happens, I think the first of those points is provably untrue. If I get time I will try to put a thread header together on the subject.
  • I had no idea Lynton Crosby was not just a Remainer, but a #FBPE guy as well:

    https://twitter.com/lyntonspins/status/979798301447991298

    Still not a fan of him, mind.

    Spoof account.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,742
    edited March 2018
    Anazina said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    Indeed. And many of them are the same posters who called for hard right holocaust denier Ron Crosby to be reinstated to this site, a pretty gruesome spectacle when I was a mere lurker.
    Thank goodness none of these people were the types recently denying any connection between antisemitism and the widespread campaign against George Soros. Nor are they the kind of folk who respond to well founded accusations of racism on the right by bellowing 'Waaaycist' and bemoaning political correctness gone mad. It's a relief those sorts don't hang around PB, I can tell you.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    I had no idea Lynton Crosby was not just a Remainer, but a #FBPE guy as well:

    https://twitter.com/lyntonspins/status/979798301447991298

    Still not a fan of him, mind.

    Spoof account.
    Ah, thanks for that info.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited March 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
    Meanwhile the Europhobes resolutely deny they had anything to do with pandering to xenophobia. No doubt they’re at a loss as to why two thirds of the country think Britain is more divided than a year ago.

    Until Leavers confront their complicity with the Leave campaign’s xenophobic lies, things will only get worse.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Anazina said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    Indeed. And many of them are the same posters who called for hard right holocaust denier Ron Crosby to be reinstated to this site, a pretty gruesome spectacle when I was a mere lurker.
    RodCrosby was a LibDem supporter.

    The only time he ever voted Conservative was bizarrely, in 1997.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    It was Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 which was the root cause of the rise in anti immigration sentiment, Farage and co just exploited that
    As it happens, I think the first of those points is provably untrue. If I get time I will try to put a thread header together on the subject.
    Thanks for your last couple of thread headers.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited March 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
    Some, e.g. Brian Eno, have demonstrated the self awareness to realise that sort of thing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/jan/23/brian-eno-not-interested-in-talking-about-me-reflection

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited March 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Lord Sugar posted this as what happens when you overstay in a Lidl carpark.

    ttps://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/978633306769186816

    It’s actually what happens when you drive around in an uninsured, and uninsurable, written off car.

    https://metro.co.uk/2018/03/23/man-suing-police-watching-video-250000-ferarri-crushed-7410531/
    Or even worse when you drive your young four year old daughter around in a car that is uninsurable and uninsured!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    edited March 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    It was Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 which was the root cause of the rise in anti immigration sentiment, Farage and co just exploited that
    As it happens, I think the first of those points is provably untrue. If I get time I will try to put a thread header together on the subject.
    The number of UKIP MEPs went from 3 in 1999 to 13 in 2009 and that was mainly a result of Blair's failure to impose transition controls in 2004.

    By 2014 UKIP had won the Euro elections with 24 MEPs creating the platform for the Leave referendum victory
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
    Meanwhile the Europhobes resolutely deny they had anything to do with pandering to xenophobia. No doubt they’re at a loss as to why two thirds of the country think Britain is more divided than a year ago.

    Until Leavers confront their complicity with the Leave campaign’s xenophobic lies, things will only get worse.

    I would have said that the media portrays Britain as more divided than last year. Because some people (E.G. Blair) cant stop going on about avoiding Brexit.

    Meanwhile, all but one of my pals have reconciled themselves to the result.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Except it is all over Sky news just adding to the chaos that is labour just now
    Makes John Mcdonnell look the realist .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049
    @AllistairMeeks

    I think the article here on 40 years of polling on membership covers that ground:

    http://theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250

    There was no upsurge of anti EU sentiment in the mid noughties as HYFUD claims, indeed Pro EU views were in a plurality. It is noticeable that Euroscepticism was in front in the very early Eighties, and is associated with hard economic times much more than migration figures.

    Anti-migrant feeling also doesn't relate to numbers coming or going, with high antimigration feeling in the early eighties despite flat or even negative net migration.

    When people are skint, they are likely to blame others, and foreigners are a popular choice. On the 5Live phone in on Thursday there was an eloquent former Middleborough steelworker. I was quite sympathetic, but if he thinks that the mills and mines will reopen with high paying working class manufacturing jobs post Brexit, he is going to be sadly disappointed.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
    Meanwhile the Europhobes resolutely deny they had anything to do with pandering to xenophobia. No doubt they’re at a loss as to why two thirds of the country think Britain is more divided than a year ago.

    Until Leavers confront their complicity with the Leave campaign’s xenophobic lies, things will only get worse.
    Isn't it time that Remainers confront their complicity with the establishment's xenophobic lies - "the locals aren't willing to do the work" for example - used for over a decade as cover for a transfer of wealth and power away from the working class ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited March 2018

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
    Meanwhile the Europhobes resolutely deny they had anything to do with pandering to xenophobia. No doubt they’re at a loss as to why two thirds of the country think Britain is more divided than a year ago.

    Until Leavers confront their complicity with the Leave campaign’s xenophobic lies, things will only get worse.
    Two thirds of people think the country is more divided, precisely because so many in the media and the London-based elites have spent the last year talking about how to overturn democracy.

    But, rather like with Corbyn and antisemitism, they still fail to understand that *they* are the ones being divisive.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
    Meanwhile the Europhobes resolutely deny they had anything to do with pandering to xenophobia. No doubt they’re at a loss as to why two thirds of the country think Britain is more divided than a year ago.

    Until Leavers confront their complicity with the Leave campaign’s xenophobic lies, things will only get worse.
    What were the 'xenophobic lies'? Generally there were lies on both sides, the only real fabrication of truth/misinformation that is outwith the general misinformation put out by the leave and remain campaigns was the £350 million to eu give to nhs bus slogan. Could hardly be considered xenophobic though.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    notme said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
    Meanwhile the Europhobes resolutely deny they had anything to do with pandering to xenophobia. No doubt they’re at a loss as to why two thirds of the country think Britain is more divided than a year ago.

    Until Leavers confront their complicity with the Leave campaign’s xenophobic lies, things will only get worse.
    What were the 'xenophobic lies'? Generally there were lies on both sides, the only real fabrication of truth/misinformation that is outwith the general misinformation put out by the leave and remain campaigns was the £350 million to eu give to nhs bus slogan. Could hardly be considered xenophobic though.
    Both Leave campaigns sought successfully to frighten voters with untrue suggestions of millions of Muslims descending on Britain.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    I love the bit when they go back to "land stolen by Israel" in the 1968 war... It only takes a small poking around to work out the facts of the matter.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited March 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:



    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.

    The Remain campaign made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the CU and SM. I’d be okay with something like the EEA agreement as a staging post to a more international opening up to trade.

    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
    Meanwhile the Europhobes resolutely deny they had anything to do with pandering to xenophobia. No doubt they’re at a loss as to why two thirds of the country think Britain is more divided than a year ago.

    Until Leavers confront their complicity with the Leave campaign’s xenophobic lies, things will only get worse.
    Two thirds of people think the country is more divided, precisely because so many in the media and the London-based elites have spent the last year talking about how to overturn democracy.

    But, rather like with Corbyn and antisemitism, they still fail to understand that *they* are the ones being divisive.
    I should have known you’d blame Remain voters. Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility.

    Until Leave supporters address their pandering to xenophobia, the divisions will only deepen.
  • Two wrongs a right make not. You should not equate with antisemitism.

    :grow-up:
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,951

    Sandpit said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    I do not swim in either thank you.
    Quite. We’re not all little Farages, many Leavers on here called out his poster on the day it was shown.
    Brexit is being implemented on a hardline basis (no single market, no EEA, no customs union) because the so-called moderate Leavers decided that they would rather fall in dutifully behind a xenophobic campaign than not leave at all.
    Oh hello, the pub bore has turned up.

    66% of the public think Britain is more divided than a year ago. Brexit is poisoning the nation.
    This was actually a fascinating thread, with people opening up on a range of matters, until you turned up and just had to turn everything round to your hobby-horse of xenophobic Brexit.

    You really are a tiresome litttle monomaniac.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited March 2018

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:



    That said, a lot of people were taken in by Farage and his ilk, they have seen their lot become noticeably worse over the past decade and when given the opportunity have chosen to roll the dice. Other politicians and commentators displaying a sneering and suck-it-up attitude toward the white working classes exacerbated the problems and undoubtedly contributed to the Leave vote by those who felt that no-one was on their side.
    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.
    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
    Meanwhile the Europhobes resolutely deny they had anything to do with pandering to xenophobia. No doubt they’re at a loss as to why two thirds of the country think Britain is more divided than a year ago.

    Until Leavers confront their complicity with the Leave campaign’s xenophobic lies, things will only get worse.
    Two thirds of people think the country is more divided, precisely because so many in the media and the London-based elites have spent the last year talking about how to overturn democracy.

    But, rather like with Corbyn and antisemitism, they still fail to understand that *they* are the ones being divisive.
    I should have known you’d blame Remain voters. Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility.

    Until Leave supporters address their pandering to xenophobia, the divisions will only deepen.
    I’m not blaming Remain voters, I’m blaming a small but very vocal elite who are still trying to overturn the result of the largest democratic mandate in Britain’s history.

    Have they never considered that, if they had put their considerable combined intellect into helping us get a good deal instead of campaigning to overturn the referendum, they could have contributed to a better outcome? Too many of them would instead prefer to see post-Brexit Britain be a failure, purely to massage their own egos and so they can say that they were right.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,724
    Australia off to a fabulous start in the cricket.

    Concede 488 and then stumble to 38-2.

    Tim must be feeling much Paine.
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 326
    Trying to go back to the main topic I was thinking of what might change Labour members' view on the antisemitism issue, I feel like if Ed Miliband were to criticise Jeremy Corbyn, then that could harm Corbyn's standing as Labour leader. At the moment, the only MPs that are attacking the leadership's handing of antisemitism are the usual suspects (Woodcock, Berger, Mann, Streeting) and anything they say has long since been tuned out by the Corbyn-supporting majority. It would need someone with some credibility with the membership to change things.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    edited March 2018
    Foxy said:

    @AllistairMeeks

    I think the article here on 40 years of polling on membership covers that ground:

    http://theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250

    There was no upsurge of anti EU sentiment in the mid noughties as HYFUD claims, indeed Pro EU views were in a plurality. It is noticeable that Euroscepticism was in front in the very early Eighties, and is associated with hard economic times much more than migration figures.

    Anti-migrant feeling also doesn't relate to numbers coming or going, with high antimigration feeling in the early eighties despite flat or even negative net migration.

    When people are skint, they are likely to blame others, and foreigners are a popular choice. On the 5Live phone in on Thursday there was an eloquent former Middleborough steelworker. I was quite sympathetic, but if he thinks that the mills and mines will reopen with high paying working class manufacturing jobs post Brexit, he is going to be sadly disappointed.

    There was actually a swing from about 40% willing to vote to leave the EU in 2001 to about 50% willing to leave the EU by 2011 in that very polling you have linked to
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    The hypocrisy of the remoaner London liberal elite is perhaps epitomised perhaps by the likes of Vince Cable who suggested in his recent speech that the Brexit vote was inspired by older people who wished for the UK of the past where there were more white faces as in the 1950s.

    This is the same Vince Cable who out of all the 33 boroughs in London chooses to live in the one with the least diverse population - Richmond - and the place you are most likely to see entirely white older middle class faces. It's just a bit rich - or is diversity just for the poor girls of Rotherham or Telford and not for the liberal middle classes?

    Do as I say not as I do. Criticising the attitudes of people who have honest concerns about things impacting on them imposed by others who can afford to buy a way out of that experience so they don't have to experience it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    DM_Andy said:

    Trying to go back to the main topic I was thinking of what might change Labour members' view on the antisemitism issue, I feel like if Ed Miliband were to criticise Jeremy Corbyn, then that could harm Corbyn's standing as Labour leader. At the moment, the only MPs that are attacking the leadership's handing of antisemitism are the usual suspects (Woodcock, Berger, Mann, Streeting) and anything they say has long since been tuned out by the Corbyn-supporting majority. It would need someone with some credibility with the membership to change things.

    But Ed has been entirely absent from Twitter this week, although we know that last weekend he was at a protest in London about gun laws in the USA.

    Has the story completely passed him by?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:



    The key group to analyse in the Brexit vote is not the anti-immigration vote. It is the Europhobe vote that decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay to get out of the EU.

    There were winners and losers from EU membership. It’s easy for the winners to fail to realise the resentment that had built up among the losers, which was shown by the extraordinary turnout for the referendum - when the winners finally realised that they were actually the minority.
    Meanwhile the Europhobes resolutely deny they had anything to do with pandering to xenophobia. No doubt they’re at a loss as to why two thirds of the country think Britain is more divided than a year ago.

    Until Leavers confront their complicity with the Leave campaign’s xenophobic lies, things will only get worse.
    Two thirds of people think the country is more divided, precisely because so many in the media and the London-based elites have spent the last year talking about how to overturn democracy.

    But, rather like with Corbyn and antisemitism, they still fail to understand that *they* are the ones being divisive.
    I should have known you’d blame Remain voters. Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility.

    Until Leave supporters address their pandering to xenophobia, the divisions will only deepen.
    I’m not blaming Remain voters, I’m blaming a small but very vocal elite who are still trying to overturn the result of the largest democratic mandate in Britain’s history.

    Have they never considered that, if they had put their considerable combined intellect into helping us get a good deal instead of campaigning to overturn the referendum, they could have contributed to a better outcome? Too many of them would instead prefer to see post-Brexit Britain be a failure, purely to massage their own egos and so they can say that they were right.
    Again, you blame people who don’t believe in Brexit. Who on earth is going to try to mitigate a catastrophe when all that will happen if you get involved is that the responsibility-avoiding cretins who sought that catastrophe will blame you for the consequences, even if you’ve helped mitigate them a bit?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    DM_Andy said:

    Trying to go back to the main topic I was thinking of what might change Labour members' view on the antisemitism issue, I feel like if Ed Miliband were to criticise Jeremy Corbyn, then that could harm Corbyn's standing as Labour leader. At the moment, the only MPs that are attacking the leadership's handing of antisemitism are the usual suspects (Woodcock, Berger, Mann, Streeting) and anything they say has long since been tuned out by the Corbyn-supporting majority. It would need someone with some credibility with the membership to change things.

    Agreed.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    I will always speak up for Israel, but this isn’t strictly true. The settlers may be gone, but Israel still controls the port, airport, and customs controls. The Palestinians in Gaza would find it harder to blame Israel for their condition if Israel actually gave them sovereignty.

    You might almost call them a vassal state.

    On another topic, don’t feed the Meeks troll.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    The big winner from Brexit is fireplaces. They are going to be a lot more prominent from now on.

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/979852567701278726
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Anazina said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    Indeed. And many of them are the same posters who called for hard right holocaust denier Ron Crosby to be reinstated to this site, a pretty gruesome spectacle when I was a mere lurker.
    RodCrosby was a LibDem supporter.

    The only time he ever voted Conservative was bizarrely, in 1997.
    It always seems to me extraordinary that individuals with genuine insight may also luxuriate under a crackpot blind spot.

    Presumably holocaust deniers think six million Jews got lost down the back of a Nazi sofa.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    @AllistairMeeks

    I think the article here on 40 years of polling on membership covers that ground:

    http://theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250

    There was no upsurge of anti EU sentiment in the mid noughties as HYFUD claims, indeed Pro EU views were in a plurality. It is noticeable that Euroscepticism was in front in the very early Eighties, and is associated with hard economic times much more than migration figures.

    Anti-migrant feeling also doesn't relate to numbers coming or going, with high antimigration feeling in the early eighties despite flat or even negative net migration.

    When people are skint, they are likely to blame others, and foreigners are a popular choice. On the 5Live phone in on Thursday there was an eloquent former Middleborough steelworker. I was quite sympathetic, but if he thinks that the mills and mines will reopen with high paying working class manufacturing jobs post Brexit, he is going to be sadly disappointed.

    There was actually a swing from about 40% willing to vote to leave the EU in 2001 to about 50% willing to leave the EU by 2011 in that very polling you have linked to
    Yes, starting at the 2008 financial crisis and 2009 recession, not the 2004 migration. Austerity, not migration, though the latter is always a populist battlecry.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,261

    Anazina said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    Indeed. And many of them are the same posters who called for hard right holocaust denier Ron Crosby to be reinstated to this site, a pretty gruesome spectacle when I was a mere lurker.
    Rod is an interesting and instructive case. He is an undoubtedly intelligent chap, with an interesting view on many topics, and IMV a good tipster. In those ways he was a boon to the site.

    Except occasionally he expressed views which are, to many (including myself) very unpalatable. For most of the time those views remained hidden, and I reckon this is the case for many such views: they are held more widely than most of us suspect, amongst the thick and the intelligent, the poor or the rich.
    Yes, tha's an interesting issue. We all have a few touchstone issues which makes us unwilling to mix (even online) with people who espouse them. On the whole I'll talk to anyone (online or in person) so long as they don't force especially horrible views on me - I'm not sure we achieve much by isolating them.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Anazina said:

    Another day when pb’s Leavers luxuriate in lambasting Labour anti-Semitism rather than do anything about, or even acknowledge, the cesspit of xenophobia they swam in so happily.

    Indeed. And many of them are the same posters who called for hard right holocaust denier Ron Crosby to be reinstated to this site, a pretty gruesome spectacle when I was a mere lurker.
    Rod is an interesting and instructive case. He is an undoubtedly intelligent chap, with an interesting view on many topics, and IMV a good tipster. In those ways he was a boon to the site.

    Except occasionally he expressed views which are, to many (including myself) very unpalatable. For most of the time those views remained hidden, and I reckon this is the case for many such views: they are held more widely than most of us suspect, amongst the thick and the intelligent, the poor or the rich.
    Yes, tha's an interesting issue. We all have a few touchstone issues which makes us unwilling to mix (even online) with people who espouse them. On the whole I'll talk to anyone (online or in person) so long as they don't force especially horrible views on me - I'm not sure we achieve much by isolating them.
    Quite so Nick .... you've always been very welcome on PB as "The Broxtowe One" .... :wink:
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    FF43 said:

    The big winner from Brexit is fireplaces. They are going to be a lot more prominent from now on.

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/979852567701278726

    Why didn't she just get her husband or staff to take a picture on their phones for free and upload it to her Instagram and Facebook page at the time?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,951
    DM_Andy said:

    Trying to go back to the main topic I was thinking of what might change Labour members' view on the antisemitism issue, I feel like if Ed Miliband were to criticise Jeremy Corbyn, then that could harm Corbyn's standing as Labour leader. At the moment, the only MPs that are attacking the leadership's handing of antisemitism are the usual suspects (Woodcock, Berger, Mann, Streeting) and anything they say has long since been tuned out by the Corbyn-supporting majority. It would need someone with some credibility with the membership to change things.

    Ed Balls would get a listening too. Even a grandee like Roy Hattersley would deserve some respect as a former Deputy Leader if he were to issue a statement. His second wife is Jewish.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,724

    DM_Andy said:

    Trying to go back to the main topic I was thinking of what might change Labour members' view on the antisemitism issue, I feel like if Ed Miliband were to criticise Jeremy Corbyn, then that could harm Corbyn's standing as Labour leader. At the moment, the only MPs that are attacking the leadership's handing of antisemitism are the usual suspects (Woodcock, Berger, Mann, Streeting) and anything they say has long since been tuned out by the Corbyn-supporting majority. It would need someone with some credibility with the membership to change things.

    Ed Balls would get a listening too. Even a grandee like Roy Hattersley would deserve some respect as a former Deputy Leader if he were to issue a statement. His second wife is Jewish.
    If they didn't listen to Neil Kinnock, what chance is there they will listen to these others?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,951
    ydoethur said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Trying to go back to the main topic I was thinking of what might change Labour members' view on the antisemitism issue, I feel like if Ed Miliband were to criticise Jeremy Corbyn, then that could harm Corbyn's standing as Labour leader. At the moment, the only MPs that are attacking the leadership's handing of antisemitism are the usual suspects (Woodcock, Berger, Mann, Streeting) and anything they say has long since been tuned out by the Corbyn-supporting majority. It would need someone with some credibility with the membership to change things.

    Ed Balls would get a listening too. Even a grandee like Roy Hattersley would deserve some respect as a former Deputy Leader if he were to issue a statement. His second wife is Jewish.
    If they didn't listen to Neil Kinnock, what chance is there they will listen to these others?
    Most of the membership are not in the mood for listening, whoever is talking to them. But the Party's senior figures need to say they did all they could to make a difference.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    edited March 2018

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-protests/israeli-forces-kill-16-palestinians-in-gaza-border-protests-gaza-medics-idUSKBN1H60AV

    Israel often overreacts but you need to remember they face an existential threat from
    Implacable enemies
    Maybe giving them back their property would help rather than tear gassing and shooting at them.
    Israel has offered full financial compensation - the issue is after 70 years the land is no longer abandoned. (And, immediately after the war, Israel offered the right of return - those that did are now Israeli Arabs with full voting and other rights in a democratic society).

    If you have 30,000 people intent on tearing down the fence, rolling burning tyres at you, and some time individuals using the crowd as cover to shoot at you how do you stop them?

    Tear gas and - possibly - rubber bullets seem a plausible response (I am not an expert). Using snipers to eliminate specific threats is unacceptable I think (unless there is an obvious danger to life) but that’s the Israeli approach.

    (I watched “Munich” last night which may have coloured my thinking!)
    No simple answer for sure , but the Israelis do not help themselves and their previous heavy handed positions and taking over other people's land etc for me makes them the aggressor and totally in the wrong.
    Morning Malc - I see faults in both sides and it is very complicated and difficult to see a solution. As I commented a few days ago my wife and I were on an International coach with a lovely elderly Jewish guide who took us through the road blocks to the walls at Jericho the day after the peace agreement with Arafat and our guide and the Palestinian Police Officer embraced whole heartedly while we all applauded and some cried.

    People want to live in peace, the politics gets in the way, sadly
    Morning G, agree totally , I doubt it will be solved in forseeable future unfortunately

    PS Afternoon even
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,951
    FF43 said:

    The big winner from Brexit is fireplaces. They are going to be a lot more prominent from now on.

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/979852567701278726

    The rise of former fireplace salesman Gavin Williamson now makes more sense.....
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 326

    Ed Balls would get a listening too. Even a grandee like Roy Hattersley would deserve some respect as a former Deputy Leader if he were to issue a statement. His second wife is Jewish.

    Ed Balls wouldn't have the credibility on the grounds that removing Corbyn would benefit Yvette, likewise Stephen Kinnock thinks he's leadership material even if he's the only one who thinks so. Hattersley might deserve some respect, but the old Corbynistas generally can't stand him and the younger ones won't have heard of him. When Ed Miliband came out against Corbyn in the aftermath of the Brexit Referendum it did shake the likes of Clive Lewis and Owen Jones away from Corbyn support.

    I'm not suggesting that he would, but if Ed did tweet something damaging to Corbyn then I would be tempted to put money on Corbyn going before the end of the year.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Off-topic:

    I don't know if this has been covered:

    "FBI questions Ted Malloch, Trump campaign figure and Farage ally"

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/30/fbi-questions-ted-malloch-trump-campaign-figure-and-farage-ally
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    FF43 said:

    The big winner from Brexit is fireplaces. They are going to be a lot more prominent from now on.

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/979852567701278726

    Mawkish.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    I think you have to wait for a judgment by the PB Committee on Antisemitic Corbynite Activity as to whether even referring to the killings in Gaza is in fact antisemitic. You should be ok as long as you only repeat verbatim IDF statements and anything Mark Regev says on the subject.
    ThUD, ThUD,
    Still table-slamming his head.
    ThUD, ThUD,
    The slurs he's said.

    Is the Jock outta his head?
    I think so.
    Is the Jock now brain-dead?
    I think so!


    Apologies to 'The Presidents of the United States of America'.
    Oh dear , medication missed again
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    edited March 2018
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    @AllistairMeeks

    I think the article here on 40 years of polling on membership covers that ground:

    http://theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250

    There was no upsurge of anti EU sentiment in the mid noughties as HYFUD claims, indeed Pro EU views were in a plurality. It is noticeable that Euroscepticism was in front in the very early Eighties, and is associated with hard economic times much more than migration figures.

    Anti-migrant feeling also doesn't relate to numbers coming or going, with high antimigration feeling in the early eighties despite flat or even negative net migration.

    When people are skint, they are likely to blame others, and foreigners are a popular choice. On the 5Live phone in on Thursday there was an eloquent former Middleborough steelworker. I was quite sympathetic, but if he thinks that the mills and mines will reopen with high paying working class manufacturing jobs post Brexit, he is going to be sadly disappointed.

    There was actually a swing from about 40% willing to vote to leave the EU in 2001 to about 50% willing to leave the EU by 2011 in that very polling you have linked to
    Yes, starting at the 2008 financial crisis and 2009 recession, not the 2004 migration. Austerity, not migration, though the latter is always a populist battlecry.
    I don't think that holds.

    On that polling Remain had a bigger lead in 2008 at the time of the crash than 2004 when the new immigrants from Eastern Europe was in the news.

    By 2011 Leave had reached 50%+ at a time when most of the EU had imposed transition controls on free movement from Eastern Europe throughout the previous 7 years unlike the UK
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,724
    Australia lose another wicket. Now 68-3.

    Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,724
    DM_Andy said:

    Ed Balls would get a listening too. Even a grandee like Roy Hattersley would deserve some respect as a former Deputy Leader if he were to issue a statement. His second wife is Jewish.

    Ed Balls wouldn't have the credibility on the grounds that removing Corbyn would benefit Yvette, likewise Stephen Kinnock thinks he's leadership material even if he's the only one who thinks so. Hattersley might deserve some respect, but the old Corbynistas generally can't stand him and the younger ones won't have heard of him. When Ed Miliband came out against Corbyn in the aftermath of the Brexit Referendum it did shake the likes of Clive Lewis and Owen Jones away from Corbyn support.

    I'm not suggesting that he would, but if Ed did tweet something damaging to Corbyn then I would be tempted to put money on Corbyn going before the end of the year.
    There is only one figure who has the kudos with the membership, the high public profile, and the track record of loyalty to Corbyn to make this a resigning issue if she speaks out.

    But Diane Abbott almost certainly won't do it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    @AllistairMeeks

    I think the article here on 40 years of polling on membership covers that ground:

    http://theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250

    There was no upsurge of anti EU sentiment in the mid noughties as HYFUD claims, indeed Pro EU views were in a plurality. It is noticeable that Euroscepticism was in front in the very early Eighties, and is associated with hard economic times much more than migration figures.

    Anti-migrant feeling also doesn't relate to numbers coming or going, with high antimigration feeling in the early eighties despite flat or even negative net migration.

    When people are skint, they are likely to blame others, and foreigners are a popular choice. On the 5Live phone in on Thursday there was an eloquent former Middleborough steelworker. I was quite sympathetic, but if he thinks that the mills and mines will reopen with high paying working class manufacturing jobs post Brexit, he is going to be sadly disappointed.

    There was actually a swing from about 40% willing to vote to leave the EU in 2001 to about 50% willing to leave the EU by 2011 in that very polling you have linked to
    Yes, starting at the 2008 financial crisis and 2009 recession, not the 2004 migration. Austerity, not migration, though the latter is always a populist battlecry.
    I don't think that holds.

    On that polling Remain had a bigger lead in 2008 at the time of the crash than 2004 when the new immigrants from Eastern Europe was in the news.

    By 2011 Leave had reached 50%+ at a time when most of the EU had imposed transition controls on free movement from Eastern Europe throughout the previous 7 years unlike the UK
    Well that just demonstrates my point. Remain was increasing through the noughties, until the GFC hit.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    Well given that Israel has colonised most of what was Palestine's land. I have yet to ever see an article on jewish settlers being ousted from their land , or Palestiaians building huge walls or fences to pen Israelis so perhaps I have missed something. Your facts seem counter to anything I have ever seen or read , albeit I don't claim to be an expert like some.

    Is this a fact for instancehttps://twitter.com/hashtag/Shoutout2MSNBC?src=hash
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    notme said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    I love the bit when they go back to "land stolen by Israel" in the 1968 war... It only takes a small poking around to work out the facts of the matter.
    Another expert pops up , show us the results of your poking about.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    edited March 2018


    The biggest claim was that Turkey was going to join EU, and that aside from that EU was going to give Turkish migrants free access to live and work in the EU. Both were true at the time of the referendum.

    Turkey was an accession country and it was only the failure of the Turkish Government to come to agreement on issues around separation of powers and human rights. Again with access to schengen it was imminent.

    If it wasnt for the attempted coup they would now have total schengen access.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    @AllistairMeeks

    I think the article here on 40 years of polling on membership covers that ground:

    http://theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250

    There was no upsurge of anti EU sentiment in the mid noughties as HYFUD claims, indeed Pro EU views were in a plurality. It is noticeable that Euroscepticism was in front in the very early Eighties, and is associated with hard economic times much more than migration figures.

    Anti-migrant feeling also doesn't relate to numbers coming or going, with high antimigration feeling in the early eighties despite flat or even negative net migration.

    When people are skint, they are likely to blame others, and foreigners are a popular choice. On the 5Live phone in on Thursday there was an eloquent former Middleborough steelworker. I was quite sympathetic, but if he thinks that the mills and mines will reopen with high paying working class manufacturing jobs post Brexit, he is going to be sadly disappointed.

    There was actually a swing from about 40% willing to vote to leave the EU in 2001 to about 50% willing to leave the EU by 2011 in that very polling you have linked to
    Yes, starting at the 2008 financial crisis and 2009 recession, not the 2004 migration. Austerity, not migration, though the latter is always a populist battlecry.
    I don't think that holds.

    On that polling Remain had a bigger lead in 2008 at the time of the crash than 2004 when the new immigrants from Eastern Europe was in the news.

    By 2011 Leave had reached 50%+ at a time when most of the EU had imposed transition controls on free movement from Eastern Europe throughout the previous 7 years unlike the UK
    Well that just demonstrates my point. Remain was increasing through the noughties, until the GFC hit.
    Not true as Leave was significantly higher in both 2004 and 2008 than it had been in 2001 after the accession of the Eastern European nations and free movement without transition controls. By 2008 the GFC was well under way
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    @AllistairMeeks

    I think the article here on 40 years of polling on membership covers that ground:

    http://theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250

    There was no upsurge of anti EU sentiment in the mid noughties as HYFUD claims, indeed Pro EU views were in a plurality. It is noticeable that Euroscepticism was in front in the very early Eighties, and is associated with hard economic times much more than migration figures.

    Anti-migrant feeling also doesn't relate to numbers coming or going, with high antimigration feeling in the early eighties despite flat or even negative net migration.

    When people are skint, they are likely to blame others, and foreigners are a popular choice. On the 5Live phone in on Thursday there was an eloquent former Middleborough steelworker. I was quite sympathetic, but if he thinks that the mills and mines will reopen with high paying working class manufacturing jobs post Brexit, he is going to be sadly disappointed.

    There was actually a swing from about 40% willing to vote to leave the EU in 2001 to about 50% willing to leave the EU by 2011 in that very polling you have linked to
    Yes, starting at the 2008 financial crisis and 2009 recession, not the 2004 migration. Austerity, not migration, though the latter is always a populist battlecry.
    I don't think that holds.

    On that polling Remain had a bigger lead in 2008 at the time of the crash than 2004 when the new immigrants from Eastern Europe was in the news.

    By 2011 Leave had reached 50%+ at a time when most of the EU had imposed transition controls on free movement from Eastern Europe throughout the previous 7 years unlike the UK
    Well that just demonstrates my point. Remain was increasing through the noughties, until the GFC hit.

    I think you are trying to interpret too much from the polls.

    Effects take a while to seep through, and can be masked for a while by other factors, e.g. apparent economic success.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049
    malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    Well given that Israel has colonised most of what was Palestine's land. I have yet to ever see an article on jewish settlers being ousted from their land , or Palestiaians building huge walls or fences to pen Israelis so perhaps I have missed something. Your facts seem counter to anything I have ever seen or read , albeit I don't claim to be an expert like some.

    Is this a fact for instancehttps://twitter.com/hashtag/Shoutout2MSNBC?src=hash
    Here is a recent article on settler evictions:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/israel-west-bank-settlement-homes

    I like Israel as a country, but the behaviour of the Israelis in the Occupied Territories has varied from cruel to outrageous. That is not to make excuses for the Palestinians, who have often been as creul and outrageous when given the chance.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,951
    DM_Andy said:

    Ed Balls would get a listening too. Even a grandee like Roy Hattersley would deserve some respect as a former Deputy Leader if he were to issue a statement. His second wife is Jewish.

    Ed Balls wouldn't have the credibility on the grounds that removing Corbyn would benefit Yvette, likewise Stephen Kinnock thinks he's leadership material even if he's the only one who thinks so. Hattersley might deserve some respect, but the old Corbynistas generally can't stand him and the younger ones won't have heard of him. When Ed Miliband came out against Corbyn in the aftermath of the Brexit Referendum it did shake the likes of Clive Lewis and Owen Jones away from Corbyn support.

    I'm not suggesting that he would, but if Ed did tweet something damaging to Corbyn then I would be tempted to put money on Corbyn going before the end of the year.
    Ed could mischievously suggest that he didn't need to be in Number 10 by Christmas, as Theresa May was already in there, implementing his 2015 Manifesto.....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2018
    Interesting article by David Goodhart:

    "David Goodhart: Liberals are set on a collision course with democracy
    Two new books attempt to chart a course through choppy political waters. David Goodhart is unconvinced"


    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/arts-and-books/david-goodhart-liberals-are-set-on-a-collision-course-with-democracy
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    Well given that Israel has colonised most of what was Palestine's land. I have yet to ever see an article on jewish settlers being ousted from their land , or Palestiaians building huge walls or fences to pen Israelis so perhaps I have missed something. Your facts seem counter to anything I have ever seen or read , albeit I don't claim to be an expert like some.

    Is this a fact for instancehttps://twitter.com/hashtag/Shoutout2MSNBC?src=hash
    Here is a recent article on settler evictions:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/israel-west-bank-settlement-homes

    I like Israel as a country, but the behaviour of the Israelis in the Occupied Territories has varied from cruel to outrageous. That is not to make excuses for the Palestinians, who have often been as creul and outrageous when given the chance.
    So chucked out a few but sanctioned another 6000 illegal settlements, hardly pushing the boat out to solve the issue. Good start but must try much much harder.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    malcolmg said:

    notme said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    I love the bit when they go back to "land stolen by Israel" in the 1968 war... It only takes a small poking around to work out the facts of the matter.
    Another expert pops up , show us the results of your poking about.
    Jordon and Syria attacked Israel in order to destroy the jewish state. Israel fought back and pushed jordon and syria back taking over their territories by force.

    Totally justified.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    Well given that Israel has colonised most of what was Palestine's land. I have yet to ever see an article on jewish settlers being ousted from their land , or Palestiaians building huge walls or fences to pen Israelis so perhaps I have missed something. Your facts seem counter to anything I have ever seen or read , albeit I don't claim to be an expert like some.

    Is this a fact for instancehttps://twitter.com/hashtag/Shoutout2MSNBC?src=hash
    Here is a recent article on settler evictions:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/israel-west-bank-settlement-homes

    I like Israel as a country, but the behaviour of the Israelis in the Occupied Territories has varied from cruel to outrageous. That is not to make excuses for the Palestinians, who have often been as creul and outrageous when given the chance.
    There was a good comment up thread that too many on both sides prefer to win than see peace. Until that changes they’ll be antagonising each other.

    We all though there’d never be peace in Northern Ireland though, and yet amazingly, two decades - half my lifetime - ago this weekend, it all came together in the Good Friday Agreement. Peace can happpen, if enough people want there to be peace.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    Y

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    . Your facts seem counter to anything I have ever seen or read , albeit I don't claim to be an expert like some.

    Is this a fact for instancehttps://twitter.com/hashtag/Shoutout2MSNBC?src=hash
    Here is a recent article on settler evictions:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/israel-west-bank-settlement-homes

    I like Israel as a country, but the behaviour of the Israelis in the Occupied Territories has varied from cruel to outrageous. That is not to make excuses for the Palestinians, who have often been as creul and outrageous when given the chance.
    There was a good comment up thread that too many on both sides prefer to win than see peace. Until that changes they’ll be antagonising each other.

    We all though there’d never be peace in Northern Ireland though, and yet amazingly, two decades - half my lifetime - ago this weekend, it all came together in the Good Friday Agreement. Peace can happpen, if enough people want there to be peace.

    An issue is that one side has the total destruction of the Israeli state as it core principle. It's hard to negotiate with that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,049

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    @AllistairMeeks

    I think the article here on 40 years of polling on membership covers that ground:

    http://theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250

    There was no upsurge of anti EU sentiment in the mid noughties as HYFUD claims, indeed Pro EU views were in a plurality. It is noticeable that Euroscepticism was in front in the very early Eighties, and is associated with hard economic times much more than migration

    There was actually a swing from about 40% willing to vote to leave the EU in 2001 to about 50% willing to leave the EU by 2011 in that very polling you have linked to
    Yes, starting at the 2008 financial crisis and 2009 recession, not the 2004 migration. Austerity, not migration, though the latter is always a populist battlecry.
    I don't think that holds.

    On that polling Remain had a bigger lead in 2008 at the time of the crash than 2004 when the new immigrants from Eastern Europe was in the news.

    By 2011 Leave had reached 50%+ at a time when most of the EU had imposed transition controls on free movement from Eastern Europe throughout the previous 7 years unlike the UK
    Well that just demonstrates my point. Remain was increasing through the noughties, until the GFC hit.

    I think you are trying to interpret too much from the polls.

    Effects take a while to seep through, and can be masked for a while by other factors, e.g. apparent economic success.

    I think that it is simplistic to link the East European immigration of 2004 to any spike in anti-EU feeling. Certainly there is little to see in the polling data to support the contention.

    While obviously there is division everywhere, with Remainers in Middlesbrough and Leavers in Cambridge, the people hardest hit by austerity were the WWC in former industrial areas like the NE and South Wales. The £350 million per week played well in Leicester WWC areas too.

    Immigration cannot explain the depth of anti EU feeling in places like Copeland or the Welsh Valleys that have had little of it, and indeed have shrinking populations. I think that money rather than migration was the driver, whether money going to the EU, or to what was seen as the parts of Britain benefiting from the EU.

    This is why a Brexit that fails to deliver in these distressed areas will get a backlash. Ppotentially, this is Jezzas route to number 10.I think May realises this, but will struggle to deliver it. A Corbynite Brexit is much more likely to.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Sandpit said:

    There was a good comment up thread that too many on both sides prefer to win than see peace. Until that changes they’ll be antagonising each other.

    We all though there’d never be peace in Northern Ireland though, and yet amazingly, two decades - half my lifetime - ago this weekend, it all came together in the Good Friday Agreement. Peace can happpen, if enough people want there to be peace.


    "There was a good comment up thread that too many on both sides prefer to win than see peace."

    Just like Brexit...

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited March 2018
    notme said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    Y

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    . Your facts seem counter to anything I have ever seen or read , albeit I don't claim to be an expert like some.

    Is this a fact for instancehttps://twitter.com/hashtag/Shoutout2MSNBC?src=hash
    Here is a recent article on settler evictions:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/israel-west-bank-settlement-homes

    I like Israel as a country, but the behaviour of the Israelis in the Occupied Territories has varied from cruel to outrageous. That is not to make excuses for the Palestinians, who have often been as creul and outrageous when given the chance.
    There was a good comment up thread that too many on both sides prefer to win than see peace. Until that changes they’ll be antagonising each other.

    We all though there’d never be peace in Northern Ireland though, and yet amazingly, two decades - half my lifetime - ago this weekend, it all came together in the Good Friday Agreement. Peace can happpen, if enough people want there to be peace.

    An issue is that one side has the total destruction of the Israeli state as it core principle. It's hard to negotiate with that.
    One side is actually destroying the other state, as you say pretty hard to negotiate with that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,724
    notme said:

    malcolmg said:

    notme said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    I love the bit when they go back to "land stolen by Israel" in the 1968 war... It only takes a small poking around to work out the facts of the matter.
    Another expert pops up , show us the results of your poking about.
    Jordon and Syria attacked Israel in order to destroy the jewish state. Israel fought back and pushed jordon and syria back taking over their territories by force.

    Totally justified.
    And Egypt (which Gaza was part of from 1948-67).

    The settlers in Sinai (which was also occupied in 1967) left in 1980.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    There was a good comment up thread that too many on both sides prefer to win than see peace. Until that changes they’ll be antagonising each other.

    We all though there’d never be peace in Northern Ireland though, and yet amazingly, two decades - half my lifetime - ago this weekend, it all came together in the Good Friday Agreement. Peace can happpen, if enough people want there to be peace.


    "There was a good comment up thread that too many on both sides prefer to win than see peace."

    Just like Brexit...

    Israel and Palestine, for when Brexit just isn’t divisive enough :D
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    notme said:

    malcolmg said:

    notme said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    You do know that Gaza is not occupied by Israel, don't you? It was land that it gave up for peace and from which it removed Jewish settlers.

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    I love the bit when they go back to "land stolen by Israel" in the 1968 war... It only takes a small poking around to work out the facts of the matter.
    Another expert pops up , show us the results of your poking about.
    Jordon and Syria attacked Israel in order to destroy the jewish state. Israel fought back and pushed jordon and syria back taking over their territories by force.

    Totally justified.
    I imagine if another people tried to setup a country in Britain our neighbours would try to help us fight them off... the idea that justifies the original invasion is an interesting one.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    notme said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    14 Palestinians killed all on the Gaza side of the border. No Israelis injured. No serious threat reported to any Israeli. Lets hope Corbyn and Co haven't been cowed into silence by those with an agenda because someone has to be able to speak up.

    The Israel Defense Forces estimated that over 30,000 Palestinians took part in Hamas-encouraged “March of Return” demonstrations along the Gaza border, focused at six main protest sites where rioters threw firebombs and stones at troops, tried to bomb and breach the security fence, and burned tires.

    Army says fatalities include Hamas gunmen trying to breach fence;

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-gazans-said-wounded-as-thousands-flock-to-border-to-protest/

    So you shoot people attacking a fence?
    Gun men you know might just be a threat to life.

    Israel has certainly been guilty of over reactions in the past, but 30,000 people rioting and it appears they shot 14 gun men seems quite restrained.
    Perhaps they should stop stealing their land and then they would not need to demonstrate at being locked up in pens.
    Y

    Or do facts not matter any more?
    . Your facts seem counter to anything I have ever seen or read , albeit I don't claim to be an expert like some.

    Is this a fact for instancehttps://twitter.com/hashtag/Shoutout2MSNBC?src=hash
    Here is a recent article on settler evictions:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/israel-west-bank-settlement-homes

    I like Israel as a country, but the behaviour of the Israelis in the Occupied Territories has varied from cruel to outrageous. That is not to make excuses for the Palestinians, who have often been as creul and outrageous when given the chance.
    There was a good comment up thread that too many on both sides prefer to win than see peace. Until that changes they’ll be antagonising each other.

    We all though there’d never be peace in Northern Ireland though, and yet amazingly, two decades - half my lifetime - ago this weekend, it all came together in the Good Friday Agreement. Peace can happpen, if enough people want there to be peace.

    An issue is that one side has the total destruction of the Israeli state as it core principle. It's hard to negotiate with that.
    The other side completely destroyed Palestine... Until both sides can admit to fault on their own side and justification for the other there can be no compromise that will stand the test of time.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Sandpit, at least we aren't discussing those unforgivable deviants who put milk in first.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    edited March 2018
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    @AllistairMeeks

    I think the article here on 40 years of polling on membership covers that ground:

    http://theconversation.com/polling-history-40-years-of-british-views-on-in-or-out-of-europe-61250

    There was no upsurge of anti EU sentiment in

    There was actually a swing from about 40% willing to vote to leave the EU in 2001 to about 50% willing to leave the EU by 2011 in that very polling you have linked to
    Yes, starting at the 2008 financial crisis and 2009 recession, not the 2004 migration. Austerity, not migration, though the latter is always a populist battlecry.
    I don't think that holds.

    On that polling Remain had a bigger lead years unlike the UK
    Well that just demonstrates my point. Remain was increasing through the noughties, until the GFC hit.

    I think you are trying to interpret too much from the polls.

    Effects take a while to seep through, and can be masked for a while by other factors, e.g. apparent economic success.

    I think that it is simplistic to link the East European immigration of 2004 to any spike in anti-EU feeling. Certainly there is little to see in the polling data to support the contention.

    While obviously there is division everywhere, with Remainers in Middlesbrough and Leavers in Cambridge, the people hardest hit by austerity were the WWC in former industrial areas like the NE and South Wales. The £350 million per week played well in Leicester WWC areas too.

    Immigration cannot explain the depth of anti EU feeling in places like Copeland or the Welsh Valleys that have had little of it, and indeed have shrinking populations. I think that money rather than migration was the driver, whether money going to the EU, or to what was seen as the parts of Britain benefiting from the E

    This is why a Brexit that fails to deliver in these distressed areas will get a backlash. Ppotentially, this is Jezzas route to number 10.I think May realises this, but will struggle to deliver it. A Corbynite Brexit is much more likely to.
    It is extremely unlikely Leave would have got over 50% had immigration not been an issue and had proper transition controls been imposed on immigration from Eastern Europe in 2004. Indeed there may not have been an EU referendum in the first place as the UKIP vote would not have increased as much.

    Corbyn may still have capitalised on an anti austerity and post GFC ticket but that is a separate issue
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Afternoon.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,724

    One side is actually destroying the other state, as you say pretty hard to negotiate with that.

    Which is why neither side actually wants peace. They want victory.

    A professor at the Hebrew University once told me that most Israelis want three things - a state that is Jewish, democratic, and from the river (Jordan) to the sea. But as he further pointed out, they can only have two of those. A state from the river to the sea would almost certainly be majority Muslim, so if it was democratic it couldn't be Jewish and if it was Jewish it couldn't be democratic. Therefore, to be democratic and Jewish it couldn't stretch to the Jordan.

    But that is not enough for a large number on both sides. Therefore the problem is ultimately insoluble. It could easily end in a gencoide by one side or the other. At the moment Israel has the advantage if that is the case, but it is one change of policy by the Americans away from being horrendously outnumbered and unsustainable economically.

    I can also recommend Ahron Bregman's book 'Cursed Victory' on this subject. Bregman is a former Israeli soldier who refused to serve in the Israeli army over its behaviour in the West Bank. He now lives in London and lectures at either UCL or SOAS (I forget which). Well worth a read.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    edited March 2018
    AndyJS said:

    Interesting article by David Goodhart:

    "David Goodhart: Liberals are set on a collision course with democracy
    Two new books attempt to chart a course through choppy political waters. David Goodhart is unconvinced"


    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/arts-and-books/david-goodhart-liberals-are-set-on-a-collision-course-with-democracy

    Ach, the "somewhere vs anywheres" guy again. I disagree with his assumption that people are basically decent, and that their basic decency will prevent badness. Individual people are kind and good and decent, but crowds and tribes and populations are not.[1] How many bloody (both senses) years of history have we had that disprove that? I am sick to the back teeth of people who insist that we are in some special place in history and so evolved that war is an impossibility and evil is to be found only in history.

    [1] OK I give up. Which Terry Pratchett passage am I remembering here? I can't remember.


  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,951
    AndyJS said:

    Interesting article by David Goodhart:

    "David Goodhart: Liberals are set on a collision course with democracy
    Two new books attempt to chart a course through choppy political waters. David Goodhart is unconvinced"


    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/arts-and-books/david-goodhart-liberals-are-set-on-a-collision-course-with-democracy

    "Liberals in developed countries have been used to winning almost every argument for economic and cultural openness over the past 30 years. And they have not in the main been reacting calmly to the apparent end to this golden era."

    You can say that again!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,724
    And Khawaja's out.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    Mr. Sandpit, at least we aren't discussing those unforgivable deviants who put milk in first.

    There are good physics reasons for putting the milk in first.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Mark, it's the damned electorates' fault. The ill-educated rustic bumpkins keep giving the wrong answers!

    [I reserve the right to despair utterly if Corbyn wins the next election].
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,724
    viewcode said:

    AndyJS said:

    Interesting article by David Goodhart:

    "David Goodhart: Liberals are set on a collision course with democracy
    Two new books attempt to chart a course through choppy political waters. David Goodhart is unconvinced"


    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/arts-and-books/david-goodhart-liberals-are-set-on-a-collision-course-with-democracy

    Ach, the "somewhere vs anywheres" guy again. I disagree with his assumption that people are basically decent, and that their basic decency will prevent badness. Individual people are kind and good and decent, but crowds and tribes and populations are not.[1] How many bloody (both senses) years of history have we had that disprove that? I am sick to the back teeth of people who insist that we are in some special place in history and so evolved that war is an impossibility and evil is to be found only in history.

    [1] OK I give up. Which Terry Pratchett passage am I remembering here? I can't remember.


    I think it's a line from The Fifth Elephant (although I could be wrong) - 'a crowd has the IQ of its stupidest member divided by the number of people present.'
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,724

    Mr. Mark, it's the damned electorates' fault. The ill-educated rustic bumpkins keep giving the wrong answers!

    [I reserve the right to despair utterly if Corbyn wins the next election].

    Constable Odo: 'The problem is when you give people a choice sometimes they make the wrong choice.'
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    JackW said:

    It always seems to me extraordinary that individuals with genuine insight may also luxuriate under a crackpot blind spot.

    Not to me. People expert in one field always assume they would be expert in others, but that's simply not true. I had a standup argument with a doctor once who deprecated high City salaries and insisted that (since hid did well at Maths A level) he could do it just as easily. The polite answer (that you need years of practice to get that skilful and that at his age he was no longer capable of the effort and did not possess the ability) did not go down well... :)

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    ydoethur said:

    And Khawaja's out.

    Lol, not 20% of the way to the SA score and four down already.
This discussion has been closed.